WEBVTT - SYSK Selects: How Kleptomania Works 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:04.280 Hello, everyone. Have you stolen anything today? Well? I hope not, 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:08.200 because that's wrong. There's a real condition called kleptomania, and 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:11.360 on December seventeen, two thousand nine, we were inspired to 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:13.800 research and talk about it, and that's what I decided 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:15.319 to go with this week for the Stuff you Should Know, 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:20.160 select the episode Cleptomania, very fascinating condition. Don't steal everyone, 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:22.480 You can steal this podcast, That's what I say. It's 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:25.919 free anyway, but just steal it. Take it home, put 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:30.639 it in your pocket, and don't tell anybody. Welcome to 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:40.120 Stuff you Should Know from House Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.800 and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, the Chuck, 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:48.320 The Chuck. The Chuck is on fire. How you doing, Chuck? 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:50.040 You've been sitting on that one for a while, just 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:52.600 since yesterday. We've actually have not recorded in two weeks, 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:54.360 and I have a feeling that Josh has been planning 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:56.240 that for two weeks. I just told you. I came 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.040 up with it yesterday. I was listening to your sweet 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:02.400 boys while I sweat, and you have floors in my house, okay, 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:04.679 and you think of dog here, you think of me? 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.920 And I thought like I thought it was your voice 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:11.760 that made me think of you chee Um. I thought, Man, 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:15.760 I've been opening up the show pretty boring wise lately. 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:20.920 Well I'm glad you're talking about this now then. Yeah, anyway, Chuck, 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:24.400 how you doing good sir? It has been a long time, 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:29.240 hasn't it? Okay? So, UM, you know it's stealing season, buddy, 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.080 is it? Yeah? It pretty much kicks off in November 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:35.759 and really goes up through the roof on what Black Friday. 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:39.959 It's much more difficult to steal during Cyber Monday, but uh, yeah, 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:43.640 as Christmas comes around, people love to steal. People love 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:47.920 to hold people up with guns, knives, sorts of physical violence, 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:51.160 that kind of thing. Wow, that's this is inspiring. Yeah, 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:54.000 it is, UM. And actually it turns out that this 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:58.640 stealing season will probably be worse than usual because there 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:02.440 was a report really east UM called the Global Retail 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:06.240 Theft Barometer, and it was released UM mid November a 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:08.799 couple of weeks back, the g r TP. Yeah I'm 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.360 a fan, I know you are, UM, and it said 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:16.640 that this year, UM businesses have lost Retail businesses have 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:21.680 lost a hundred and fifteen billion dollars worldwide from stealing 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:25.920 from theft. What what's America? Do you have that billion? Wow? 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.760 Because in our article it says ten billion. Ten billion 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:31.800 is like an average, so that's a huge increation. It is. 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:35.040 Actually I'll tell you what. Usually, UM there, I guess 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:39.200 there's an increase every year, and usually worldwide, uh, it 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.840 increases by about one point five I wonder if that's 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:45.480 some direct relation to the cost of goods increasing. I 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:48.120 think that that actually does have something to do with it. 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:51.120 In this time article I read UM this year, uh 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:56.280 six percent increase worldwide, and in America North America, there's 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.360 an eight point one percent increase. So people are just 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:02.080 stealing left right, and they they the authors of the 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:07.160 study UM, the Center for Retail Research apparently talked to cops, 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:11.560 talked to shoplifters, UM, and said, you know what's going on? 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:15.640 They talked to shoplifters. How so do you know people 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:18.000 who've been busted for shopling? Okay, I thought you meant 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:20.120 that had not been caught. No, they just hang around 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:22.800 Macy's and are like, you look like a shoplifter, you 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:24.880 scuzz ball, or I saw what you did and I 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:27.480 won't report you if you answer these fine questions exactly 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:31.400 and give me a sawbuck. Um, what what is that? 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.600 A twenty? I think we've gone over this before. I 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:38.000 think it's a fiber Okay, so um, no, it's a ten. 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:41.800 I bet we get some listener mill and I bet 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:44.320 it's either a five or ten. Um so chuck. Where 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:46.480 they found from talking to these people is that there 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:52.720 is an increase in um, the perception that companies are 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:56.040 making off with all this money during while everybody else 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:58.960 is having hard times, and so they kind of feel 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.880 justified in stealing. And they're seeing a much a rise 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:06.200 in the middle class stealing people who can afford stuff 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:11.480 and just aren't paying um. And apparently this of this 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:14.720 victimless crime, that's kind of another perception. So you're stealing 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:19.360 from a giant corporation. Uh, in the United States, we 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.719 paid an extra four hundred and thirty six bucks a 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:28.080 household in consumer goods prices. Yeah, that's what happens. Yeah, 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.200 same with credit card fraud, the shrinkage along right, Yeah, 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:34.159 same with credit card fraud. That's why, I mean, that's 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:36.240 not all why, but one reason why the interest rates 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:38.800 are so sky high, because people say, I'll just charge 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:40.920 a bunch of stuff and not pay it insurance fraud. 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:43.280 It's just it's just, you know, that's stupid. In that 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:45.040 stupid credit card company is going to take the hit, 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:48.960 but they don't, although they should they but they don't. 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:50.440 They don't take a hit. They pass it all along. 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:54.400 Of course they do. That's how it works. We're all slaves, chuck, suckers. Anyway, 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:59.240 somewhere in that those those statistics I just um, you know, 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:06.799 spewed out. But um, there are a very tiny pop 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:12.520 percentage of that population that are kleptomaniacs. I feel like 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:18.160 I just gave birth to a watermelon, a square watermelon. Um, yes, Josh, 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:22.200 kleptomania is not exactly In fact, it's not at all shoplifting. 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.760 Shoplifting is the means by which you would perform your kleptomania. 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:30.360 That's an excellent definition, Chuck. And I've read this article too, 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:32.000 and I know that that was not in there. That 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:35.360 was a special I just made it up. Yeah, although 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:36.920 I would say you could steal from anyone and that 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:38.719 would be klepto me. It didn't have to be a store. Yeah, 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:43.599 but apparently, um, it is generally stores or parties. But yeah, 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:45.800 if you're gonna steal from another from an individual. It's 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.120 usually at a party, I think, um, but it generally 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:54.280 is retailers. Let's what what differentiates kleptomaniacs from shoplifters. Well, 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:58.920 there's actually a definition, as outlined by the American Psychiatric 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:04.400 Associations Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, right, that 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:09.000 says that, Uh, they outline this criteria, Josh. The individual 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:12.400 repeatedly fails to resist the impulse to steal items that 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:15.760 are not needed for personal use or monetary value. That's 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:21.240 number one. Uh. The individual experiences tension before stealing. Uh. 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:25.040 The tension is relieved after stealing, and the theft does 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:31.560 not due to anger, revenge, delusions, hallucinations, or impaired judgment. Um, 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:34.640 and I think there's Yeah, there's one more. Psychological disorders 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:39.039 can't account for the stealing behaviors different other psychological disorders. 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:42.800 That's still a little play acting. Oh I love this, Okay, Um, 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:45.800 I'm going to be a kleptomaniac. Okay, you are going 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:49.839 to be a tube of lipstick, all right, Okay, hold on, 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:53.559 let me get into character. Man, You're you're a master. Okay, 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.359 I'm there. Okay, all right, So I'm walking into the 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.719 store and i'm, you know, looking for some sunglasses that 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:02.200 tend to purchase, and all of a sudden, I feel 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:06.320 this horrible tension. My stomach is tight. I'm starting to 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.200 sweat a little bit because I just spotted Chuck, the 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:13.400 tube of lipstick, who is sitting there as an inanimate object. 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.720 Because if you talk, then that's delusion and it doesn't 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:19.360 count kleptomania. So I'm looking at Chuck. I'm feeling this 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:21.960 horrible tension. I know that I'm going to steal. I 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.760 don't want to steal, but I have to because it's 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:26.720 the only way to relieve the tension. So I've just 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.240 grabbed Chuck and put him in my pocket. And I 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:31.560 don't even wear a lipstick. There's no explanation for this. 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:34.080 I make it out of the store, and as I 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:35.960 enter into the rest of them all and start to 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:38.440 feel like I'm not about to be caught, that tension 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:42.640 goes away, maybe replaced with a little bit of a thrill, 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.960 a kick right, and then boom, I get hit by 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:50.320 this crushing guilt. I've just stolen again. Not only have 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:55.040 I stolen from something from somebody, I have failed to 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:59.560 yet again, resist this overwhelming urge. So I take the 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.920 lips and I go to my grandmother's house, who is 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.080 now dead, but in the scenario, she's actually alive, and 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.120 I just put it in with the rest of her lipstick. 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:13.320 Go about my business feeling generally bad about myself today. 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:16.760 Can I talk now? Yeah, First of all, it was 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:19.120 a little weird being in your pocket. Let me say 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.360 that I liked it. But yeah, dude, you just hit 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:24.560 on a lot of the major points, uh, tension, relief 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:28.440 of tension, guilt, a rush, giving away what you stole, 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:33.440 stealing something you don't need, or hoarding. Sometimes, yeah, a 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:36.440 lot of times people will hoard it. Um. I read 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.800 a case of a woman in the early twentieth century 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:43.679 who was caught shoplifting. Upper middle class. Um. They caught her, 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:46.520 went to her house and found all this stuff that 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:50.040 she'd stolen, with the price textin clearly not used. There's 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:52.840 not a no one. They don't use the stuff that 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:55.120 they steal. I've got a hoarder for you, buddy, let's 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:57.719 hear it. This dude in April of this year in 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.920 Israel was busted. They went to his house and they 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:06.000 found motorcycle helmets, um watches, Louis Vuitton, handbags, hundred and 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:10.480 fifty pair of shoes, two pair of sunglasses, olive oil, 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:13.400 laundry to church, all kinds of stuff unopened in this 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:17.520 guy's house, literally stacked in in every corner of the house, 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.000 from room to room. And he admitted that he had 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.760 been shoplifting for a decade, every time he went to 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:26.200 a story, shoplifted for a decade. And he alone, And 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:28.440 now he has a wife and son and wow, he 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:30.320 has a family who know to keep their mouth. Well, 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:32.080 this is the funny part. And of course this is 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:34.640 from an Israeli newspaper. It says his wife and son 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.840 are suspected of knowing of his activity but doing nothing 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:40.080 about it. I don't know if that's a formal charge, 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.959 but uh. He also was busted with a big um 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:46.720 roll of stickers that say like paid for thank you 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.360 for coming that kind of thing. Oh so ye see, 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:50.960 that was part of his deal. He would go in 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:52.840 there and like put that on his big TV box 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.520 or whatever. I wonder if that disqualifies him as a kleptomaniac, 0:09:56.559 --> 0:10:00.960 though I don't think why, because he preplanned it. Because 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:04.160 one of the things that Freud and rich. Is that 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:08.800 how we say his name? The author of this article, PhD, 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:14.120 isn't it? No? I thought it was Craig Freundlick, No, 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:17.480 there's no l Oh, there's not totally invented that. I've 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:18.839 been reading it that way for two and half. You 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:22.320 we're gonna call him Dr Freud, Okay, okay. Dr Freud 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:27.360 pointed out that, um, people who are kleptomaniacs true kleptomaniacs, 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:29.280 or I think from what I gather, we don't call 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:33.160 him cleptomaniacs. We call him people with kleptomania don't go 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.200 into a store intending to steal. They don't go to steal, 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.560 they're just overcome by the impulse from the store. Yeah, 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:41.640 that makes sense. The other thing that makes that guy 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.240 hinky as a candidate for a person with kleptomania is 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:49.040 that he's a man. Yeah. Women more often and this 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.880 is a little hinky too, but women are are more 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:54.640 often diagnosed with kleptomania. But that is slanted a little 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:56.920 bit because I think it said that women are less 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.720 likely to admit to it or to report it to 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:03.120 like a psychiatrist, that kind of thing. Oh, No, men, 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:08.839 men who still go to prison, women who still psychiatric evaluation. Yeah, 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:13.560 so that that could definitely slam the population. But traditionally, um, 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:19.160 people think that kleptomania is a feminine disorder. Have you 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:22.480 ever seen an Ice Storm? No? I need to. Really, 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.839 that's a great movie. Uh. He said that shamefully. I 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:28.959 do feel kind of ashamed. Actually, the mother and daughter 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:33.000 Joan Allen and Christina Ricci both shoplift in that film 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:38.880 at separate times. I think Heartbreakers, that's Sigourney Weaver and um, 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.000 what's her name is Jennifer Lovett? Yeah, no, I'm talking 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.000 about The Ice Storm. I don't think I don't think so. Yeah. 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.840 In fact, I think Joan Allen actually steals lipstick. There 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:50.200 you go. Maybe that was me. Yeah, it is one 0:11:50.200 --> 0:12:19.760 of my favorite movies. Yes, Josh, early teens and twenties. 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:22.719 If we're talking more about the pattern is usually when 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.439 it begins, Yeah, but it can run up to Uh. 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:29.400 I think they've found kleptomaniacs in their late seventies. Yeah. 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:32.520 Didn't we do a story about Japanese elderly that are 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:37.000 stealing just so they'll get caught in like have a friend. Yeah, 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:40.320 they're so lonely. They're trying to basically make friends with 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.240 the police by being arrested. So that's not clepto any 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:45.520 that's a shop. Uh. And I don't know. I was 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.160 thinking about when I saw that in the late seventies. Um, 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:51.040 I thought of that Seinfeld episode where Jerry finds out 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:53.680 that his parents steal batteries and in turn finds out 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.920 that almost all elderly people steal battery Yeah. Yeah, yeah 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:07.320 for their tip calculators. That the Willard I'm ruined. You 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.320 know another thing, Josh is uh you you hit on 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.400 it again with your little play acting. They usually steal 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:17.200 stuff they can afford, and stuff like shampoo it listed 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:23.160 and sunglasses are big and uh, they like famously went 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:27.680 on a writer went on a Horowitz excuse me, no, yeah, 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.320 really that's her name. I had no idea she famously 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:36.280 stole several thousand dollars from sex fifth Avenue, five thousand. 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:38.800 I think, yeah, she can definitely swing that. Yeah, And 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:41.280 I don't know if it ever came out that they 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:43.920 did they ever plead kleptomania or anything with her? Did 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:47.439 they know quietly tried to you know, pay their fine 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:50.360 and yeah, and that that brings up a pretty good. 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:56.400 Point is a kleptomania defense is really really hard to 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:00.640 prove or did successfully get off on it? Is? You 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:05.640 know why what, Well, your defense lawyer must argue when 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:07.920 the argument that there was no reason for you to 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:11.280 steal it, no financial gain, revenge, they got to prove 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:13.720 all those things beyond a reasonable doubt. First of all, Yeah, 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.160 that's one you want to follow up. Well, I know 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:20.160 that the Justice Department doesn't recognize kleptomania as a defense, 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.800 So if you're for federal charges, don't even try it. Yeah, exactly, 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:27.040 And that's that's like the Americans with Disabilities Act, that's 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:32.640 in legislation. So right, good luck, and so chuck, kleptomania, 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:37.640 what is it? Is it an actual disease? Should it 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:40.400 be covered in the Americans with Disabilities Act? Should the 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:43.480 do O J finally open up their eyes and be like, okay, okay, 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:46.400 there's such a thing as kleptomania. Well, we don't know 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.640 for sure. There's uh, some people think it's like tagged 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:55.160 onto other psychological disorders like what like obsessive compulsive or 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.840 personality and mood disorders. Okay, so it may like it 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:05.720 could be a symptom or a byproduct of a larger disorder, right, yes, okay, 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:08.680 but by and large it's classified as an impulse control 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:15.040 disorder like gambling or pyromania, fire starting awesome or uh 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:19.800 trick o tillomania. Yes, trick I've never heard of that. Yeah, 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.520 obsessive hair pulling. Yeah, I wonder if that means pulling 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:27.320 your own hair. Other people's probably both, I don't know. Huh. 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.680 That's an excellent question. Actually, and it got our producer 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:34.000 Jerry giggling. So you know it's good. It's good. Yeah. 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:38.240 So it's either a symptom of a larger disorder or 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.640 it's its own impulse control disorder. UM. One of the 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:47.040 reasons we don't know is because treatments UM for kleptomania 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.280 are hit or miss. Yeah, and they haven't studied a lot. 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:52.360 And the other thing is like it hit me like 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.680 everything else with the brain. It's still sort of a mystery, 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:57.720 it is. And one of the reasons why they have 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:02.800 had trouble studying kleptomania is finding kleptomaniacs like I found 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:05.920 a study from two thousand two that was just getting 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.160 off the ground at Stanford and UM. These people were 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:12.760 looking for twenty four kleptomaniacs for their study, and we're 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:16.080 having to go on TV radio everywhere to try to 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:19.560 find like true kleptomaniacs. And one of um, this guy 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:23.240 who was quoted in a in this article on the study, UM, 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:25.960 a guy named will cup Chick, which is a pretty 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:29.120 cool name if you ask me. He's a Toronto psychologist. 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:31.880 He said, Um, in the four hundred and fifty cases 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.480 I've assessed, probably only one or two of the people 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:38.960 were actual kleptomaniacs. We're talking about a very, very small, 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:43.160 fascinating part of the larger population, didn't they I think 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.080 I saw some in the article. They said maybe five 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:51.920 percent of psychiatric patients admit to being our our diagnosis kleptomaniac. Right, 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.960 and and you just you revealed something else too. I 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:56.840 think a lot of it is admission. I mean, like, 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:01.040 remember when me, the play acting kleptomania, left and went 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:03.120 into the mall, was crushed by guilt. I remember that 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.399 I wanted to get the object away from me. Do 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:11.240 you remember the desire to keep this secret? I think 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:13.680 probably keeps a lot of people from coming forward. Yeah, 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:15.639 so we have no idea how large or small this 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.360 population is. But I think from people who examine shoplifters 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:23.399 they find that the actual kleptomaniacs among them are are 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:26.919 very small population. Um. You know who has studied it. 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:32.840 The University of Minnesota School of Medicine. Yeah, specifically psychiatrist 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.240 John Grant, and he studied the brain and there are 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:39.000 a few little deposits, a few theories here. One is 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.880 that a a defect in a molecule that transports serotonin 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:45.879 might be messed up. Yeah. Well not the defect was 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:49.119 messed up. That would clearly be messed up. The defect 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:52.400 is messed up in your potentially head trauma could cause 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:55.040 something like this. It could damage the circuits in the 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:59.040 frontal lobes. That could maybe happen and decrease in the 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:01.840 fine structure of white matter in the frontal lobe. But 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:04.960 it's all in the frontal lobe, right, and the Lympic system, which, 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:10.080 as of course we know is the brain's reward center. Um. 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.280 So that's in the frontal lobe, right, which also controls 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.760 um impulse, or the frontal lobe controls impulse mood. There 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:19.600 you have it, dude, Yeah, so clearly it's it could 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:21.840 be its own disorder in the frontal lobe, reasons going 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.679 on in there. Um. So did we say that treatments 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.720 don't work all that well? Like, Um, sometimes U s 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:35.120 SR rise, but not all the time. Cognitive therapy work. 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:38.200 Sometimes you want to talk about some of the cognitive therapy. Yeah, 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.600 cognitive therapy cracks me up a little bit. It's like 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:43.520 snapping a rubber band on your wrist when you have 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:48.440 like an impure thought. Um. Covert sensitization, Josh, is when 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.639 a patient wants to steal and then all of a sudden, 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:55.359 you're you're trained to imagine the consequences, which, to me, 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:57.720 that's like I thought that's what you're just supposed to 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.680 teach people. It's like, um no, it's like you're get 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.040 in trouble, bring a cat in the face, like every 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:04.680 time it does something you don't want with a little 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:09.920 water bottle. Yeah, aversion therapy. That is, if you feel 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:11.840 the urge to steal, you will be told to do 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:15.840 something like holding your breath until it's literally painful. Oh, 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:20.000 I'm sorry. That's the one that's like you are that 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:23.320 covert sensitization that is kind of what we as humans 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:25.880 should be walking around doing at all times right, thinking 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:29.320 about the consequences of your actions. Uh. And then the 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:35.080 last one they uses systematic desensitization, which is relaxation therapy 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:39.040 and substituting relaxing feelings instead of the urge to steal. 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:43.400 All of those are probably the most difficult thing cleptomaniac 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:46.800 will ever attempt too. I found another little study, though, 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.520 let's hear it took in April of this year. They 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:54.760 started a test where they gave kleptomaniacs or cleptomania. What 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:58.160 do we call him again, those with kleptomania, people with cleptomania. 0:19:58.400 --> 0:19:59.920 I guess no one wants to be called a maniac 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:04.879 in any way. Uh. They they studied they got twenty 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:08.800 five habitual thieves men and women between seventeen seventy five, 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:13.560 and they gave them the drug nal trek Zone, which 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.160 is what they give alcoholics and drug addicts to curb 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:18.840 their their bad behavior. Is that the stuff that makes 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:22.719 your hangover really really bad, I think, so it's supposed 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:25.320 to quell those impulses, and it kind of worked. Um. 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.920 After eight weeks, they found that two thirds of the 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:32.680 people who had not given the placebo had no urge 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.760 to steal, and only like eight percent had placebo did so. 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:38.159 They also ate their vegetables and went to bed when 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:42.200 they were told to be good drug, we could use that, Chuck. 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.359 Is that it almost we're going to travel back to 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:13.960 the beginning now or this should have been at the beginning? 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:18.800 Kleptomania was um? I think it first appears in literature 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:26.240 in seven CE. Okay, uh st Augustine admitted to uh. 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:29.479 Lusting to thieve by st. Augustine was something mounts he 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:33.520 really was if he existed at all. Um. And then 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:36.960 it ends up in the medical literature. In eighteen sixteen, 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:40.080 a Swiss physician by the name of Matthew wrote of 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:43.560 a unique madness characterized by the tendency to steal without 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:47.120 motive and without necessity. Do you have an eighteen sixteen? 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:49.960 And then Freud came in and said that has something 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:53.400 to do with penis envy, no kidding. And now it's 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:55.960 a forty five well not just a cleptomania, but shoplifting 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:59.040 is a forty five billion dollar in this country took 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:02.640 off from eighteen six team to two thousand nine. That's 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:05.680 good stuff, all right, Well, that's kleptomania. If you want 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:08.520 to know anymore, you can read the article by our 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:13.520 own Dr freud Um by typing in kleptomania. Remember it 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:16.399 begins with k uh in the handy search bar how 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:19.200 stuffworks dot com. And since I just said that, of course, 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:26.399 dear friends, this means listener mayo. Josh, I'm just gonna 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:31.640 call this Hippie Rob followed up your old buddy Hippi 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:33.760 Should you say something about Hippi Rob. Well, let's wait 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:37.080 till after U. Hi, Josh and Chuck I like him 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:39.600 when they started that way. I don't normally right into 0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:43.359 TV shows or radio shows, etcetera. But I've heard Josh 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:45.520 talk about Hippie Rob and at the end of the 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:47.520 Hangover podcast, he mentioned that he wanted to hear from 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:50.800 people who knew of his whereabouts. I do, in fact 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:53.040 know at Hippie Rob and wanted to offer my knowledge 0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:55.440 of this person to determine if it was the same 0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:57.840 Hippie Rob. And I've seen this email and I know 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:00.159 that it's a real Hippie Rob because he capitalize the 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:03.600 H and the rob. The Hippie Rob I know is 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:08.639 originally from vinyl Haven, Maine, a medium side a medium 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:12.080 size island off the coast of down East, Maine. They 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:16.160 say things weird of their down East. His full name, 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:18.280 I didn't say his full name here, but it's Robert 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:23.240 Blank and uh. He has thick, blonde dreadlocks, the sure 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:25.760 telltale sign of a hippie. Sure. He was about five 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:27.640 ten and never talked about his age, but I would 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:30.719 put him in the upper thirties and possibly lower forties. 0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:36.120 In he loves coffee, hates alcohol, and he mentioned one 0:23:36.200 --> 0:23:37.800 of his other habits that he loves, which we're not 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:39.720 going to mention on the air. But his name is 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:43.600 hippie Rob. So fill in the blanks. Uh. He squatted 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:45.639 at my apartment in Portland, Maine, the summer of n 0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:49.200 so close. At the time, he was living off a 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:52.919 Social Security from a quote permanent work related accident. I 0:23:52.920 --> 0:23:55.960 think we've all known a hippie Rob, but something told 0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:58.680 me that his permanent disability was not physically related. I 0:23:58.720 --> 0:24:00.480 would see him every few summers in Maine and he 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:02.880 would shoot the breeze. We would shoot the breeze while 0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:06.520 drinking coffee and doing other things. He was a terrible mooch. 0:24:07.000 --> 0:24:08.959