WEBVTT - Become a thought leader, with Peter Winick

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's

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<v Speaker 1>episode will be a slightly longer one part of the

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<v Speaker 1>series where I interview fascinating people about how they take

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<v Speaker 1>their days from great to awesome and any advice they

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<v Speaker 1>have for the rest of us. So today I am

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<v Speaker 1>delighted to welcome Peter Winnick to Before Breakfast. Peter is

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<v Speaker 1>the founder and CEO of Thought Leadership Leverage and the

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<v Speaker 1>co author of the brand new book, The Thought Leadership Handbook. Peter,

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the show.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me, Laura.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm excited to have you here. Why don't you tell

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<v Speaker 1>our listeners a little bit about yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So, I'm the founder and CEO at Thought Leadership Leverage.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're a consulting firm that works with all sorts

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<v Speaker 2>of thought leaders and nonfiction authors and keynote speakers in touch.

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<v Speaker 2>I've got a podcast as well, so I co host

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<v Speaker 2>that and as of late, i'm an author. So that's

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<v Speaker 2>exciting exciting.

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<v Speaker 1>And where are you based.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm in New York in New York, Okay, well.

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<v Speaker 1>It's fine. I want to tell our leader our listeners.

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<v Speaker 1>I am looking at Peter, who is out in nature

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<v Speaker 1>right now.

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<v Speaker 2>He is.

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<v Speaker 1>That's one way he's taking his day from great to

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<v Speaker 1>awesome is by working outside. But let's talk a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit about thought leadership. So the subject of your book,

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<v Speaker 1>this is a phrase that gets thrown around a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>How would you define thought leadership?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I'll answer that backwards. So it's getting thrown

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<v Speaker 2>around a lot now, which is not good. I don't think, right,

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<v Speaker 2>So not everything is thought leadership, right, So, for example,

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<v Speaker 2>content marketing is content marketing, and it's not that it's

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<v Speaker 2>good or bad, but it's different than thought leadership. So

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<v Speaker 2>I look at thought leadership. Well. One other disclaimer is

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<v Speaker 2>never call yourself a thought leader. It's sort of obnoxious

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<v Speaker 2>and there's an ick piece to there. When you like,

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<v Speaker 2>if you look on LinkedIn or something to say someone

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<v Speaker 2>that self identifies as a thought leader, that sort of

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<v Speaker 2>takes most people aback. I think thought leader is something

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<v Speaker 2>that is bestowed upon you. It's almost like being knighted. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>Like people in your field, or people that you admire

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<v Speaker 2>or people that you respect start to refer to you

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<v Speaker 2>as a thought leader, then it's okay to say to

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<v Speaker 2>say that. So, you know, what is thought leadership is

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<v Speaker 2>really an interesting question. I define it as really some

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<v Speaker 2>combination of research, of stories, of expertise, of taking a

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<v Speaker 2>discipline into a little bit of a different direction. So

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't have to be radical, right, So you know,

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<v Speaker 2>one example would be, you know the world is flat

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<v Speaker 2>the world is round? Okay, Well there's either one answer

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<v Speaker 2>to that question. Another might be more more nuanced, which

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<v Speaker 2>I think is where most thought leadership lives, which is, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>I've got a different take on agility in leadership, or

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<v Speaker 2>psychological safety or emotional intelligence. I don't have to reinvent

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<v Speaker 2>the wheel. But what is my addition to the body

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<v Speaker 2>of work that could you know, by adding to it

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<v Speaker 2>makes it better for everyone?

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<v Speaker 1>And what would be the difference between thought leadership and

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<v Speaker 1>just being an expert on something? Or is there a difference?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I mean I think that that really depends. You

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<v Speaker 2>could be an expert on something that not a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people care about, right, so it could be the

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<v Speaker 2>level of niche. But I think the thought, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>thought leadership should have application in a broader sense. Now, no,

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't mean broad like it's universal. But if you're

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<v Speaker 2>the number one expert in the planet on I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>refrigerated supply chain for seafood, not that that's not important,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's probably not something that the average person is

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<v Speaker 2>going to pick up at the airport. So I think

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<v Speaker 2>there's expertise, there's you know, subject matter expertise, and then

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<v Speaker 2>there's thought leadership.

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<v Speaker 1>And so if you are an expert on something, though,

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<v Speaker 1>what would be the upside to your career or to

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<v Speaker 1>your legacy or anything else. And then trying to become

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<v Speaker 1>more of a thought leader.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I think that's a great question. I think

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<v Speaker 2>anybody could develop thought leadership. You don't have to be

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<v Speaker 2>an expert per se. It's not a precursor. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think what's amazing about developing your thought leadership is it's transportable. Right, So,

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<v Speaker 2>all things being equal, if I was looking to hire

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<v Speaker 2>an X and fill in the blank for whatever it

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<v Speaker 2>is that you do as X, and one person demonstrated

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<v Speaker 2>thought leadership and one didn't write everything else being equal,

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<v Speaker 2>great education, great background, ten years of experience managing people,

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<v Speaker 2>but one person speaking a conference or writing or curating

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<v Speaker 2>information or research, and guess what that person's going to win?

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<v Speaker 2>And guess what when they move on to their next job.

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<v Speaker 2>With some rare exceptions, they get to take that with them.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think that there's a piece a case to

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<v Speaker 2>be made for thought leadership from a career trajectory, personal branding,

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<v Speaker 2>et cetera.

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<v Speaker 1>And when people sort of set out, I mean, obviously

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<v Speaker 1>we're not going to call ourselves thought leaders, but we're

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<v Speaker 1>hoping that other people will refer to us at this

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<v Speaker 1>If people are sort of embarking on this journey, it

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<v Speaker 1>sounds like you need a thought and then you need

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<v Speaker 1>to establish leadership, like to have followers to your thought.

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<v Speaker 1>So does this thought just come to us as an

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<v Speaker 1>epiphany or does this tend to be something people are

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<v Speaker 1>building over time and iterating and figuring out what works.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, how does that process?

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's both. So I think it could be

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<v Speaker 2>let's call it manufactured, Like, hey, I see an opportunity.

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<v Speaker 2>There's not a lot of people talking about this thing.

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<v Speaker 2>That's one Another is a lot of you know, my

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<v Speaker 2>clients basically wrote the book that they needed to read

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<v Speaker 2>that didn't exist, right, So a lot of it is is, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>I struggle with X, or I think about this thing

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<v Speaker 2>and then they realize like, hey, I'm not so special.

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<v Speaker 2>There's other people that are thinking about this thing and

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<v Speaker 2>struggling about this thing, et cetera. And then there's also

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<v Speaker 2>doing it with a level of deliberateness. Hey, there's other

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<v Speaker 2>folks out there talking about this. I have something to say,

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<v Speaker 2>Sue too, and I have And it doesn't mean I

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<v Speaker 2>agree with them or disagree with them, but my voice

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<v Speaker 2>could add to this dialogue, to this conversation, to this

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<v Speaker 2>body of knowledge. And I'm going to throw my hat

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<v Speaker 2>in the ring.

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<v Speaker 1>Is this something? I mean, I'm curious if you know,

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<v Speaker 1>people have lots of thoughts or different things that they're

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<v Speaker 1>interested in. I mean, how do you start sort of

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<v Speaker 1>doing the work toward figuring out what might be kind

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<v Speaker 1>of your big breakthrough idea?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think you put it out there, right. I

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<v Speaker 2>think that one of the things that's interesting today is

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<v Speaker 2>we all have a platform, be that a microphone, or

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<v Speaker 2>be that LinkedIn or be that whatever. So if you're

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<v Speaker 2>thinking about something, experiment right, and you could put it

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<v Speaker 2>out there as a disclaimer. Hey, you know what I've

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<v Speaker 2>been thinking about a lot lately, A B and C.

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<v Speaker 2>And in fact, I talked to three people that are

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<v Speaker 2>in the same field as me and they're thinking about

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<v Speaker 2>it too. What do you think right, And you know

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<v Speaker 2>it's not one and done. You've got to constantly iterate,

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<v Speaker 2>constantly testing the market will tell you what it's interested in.

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<v Speaker 2>It almost doesn't matter if you're looking to commercialize and

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<v Speaker 2>you're looking to sort of really put your flag in

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<v Speaker 2>this space. What you think. It's the intersection of what

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<v Speaker 2>you love, what you're passionate about, where you have something

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<v Speaker 2>to say, and what the world needs. And we're typically

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<v Speaker 2>pretty bad judges on what the world might need.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, we'll talk a little bit more about that when

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<v Speaker 1>we come back after one quick ad break. Well, I

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<v Speaker 1>am back talking with Peter Winnick, who is the CEO

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<v Speaker 1>of Thought Leadership Leverage and the co author of the

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<v Speaker 1>brand new book, The Thought Leadership Handbook. So let's say

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<v Speaker 1>we have, you know, an idea, okay, and we are

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<v Speaker 1>an expert in something you know, credentials or whatever. It's

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<v Speaker 1>something we've been working in for years. What are some

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<v Speaker 1>of the ways, I mean, what do you recommend to

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<v Speaker 1>your clients to start building more of a platform and

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<v Speaker 1>a followership around that idea. What are the most effective

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<v Speaker 1>ways to.

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<v Speaker 2>So those are two different things. Followership for the most

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<v Speaker 2>part is an outcome of good thought leadership. If followership

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<v Speaker 2>is the objective, then you're trying to be an influencer.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm not the guy that's going to teach you

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<v Speaker 2>how to do the tiktoks like I'm just not right.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think, you know, followership again, should be an outcome.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you've got something, what I would I would

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<v Speaker 2>work at backwards and say who is this for? And

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<v Speaker 2>I would do that with the highest level of specificity

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<v Speaker 2>that I could think of. And it's not just demographics.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not just oh, college educated females forty to fifty

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<v Speaker 2>that work in it, like that's okay. There's a psychographic

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<v Speaker 2>dimension to this that's really important, Meaning, hey, do the

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<v Speaker 2>people that I'm trying to reach, what's their risk tolerance?

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<v Speaker 2>Do they have a growth mindset? Are they open to change,

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<v Speaker 2>are they the first ones to try new technology? Whatever

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<v Speaker 2>the sort of psychographic piece is, are start to shape

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<v Speaker 2>that in your head and then you work backwards And

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<v Speaker 2>it's this combination of the demographic and the psychographics. So,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, if I was trying to reach academics, short

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<v Speaker 2>form video is probably not the best way to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>They're going to want to read things like academic papers. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>If I'm trying to reach a younger demographic and my

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<v Speaker 2>comfort zone is writing, you know, I don't know five

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<v Speaker 2>thousand word pieces, we're probably going to miss each other.

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<v Speaker 2>So you have to find that intersection of not just

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<v Speaker 2>where the ideas are, but what is the proper modality

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<v Speaker 2>and format that the audience you're trying to reach prefers. Like,

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<v Speaker 2>we're on a podcast. Now. I love podcast, right, I

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<v Speaker 2>have one. I like to be a guest on one.

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<v Speaker 2>I listen to them all the time when I'm in

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<v Speaker 2>the car on the gym. I don't like audio books.

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<v Speaker 2>That's me right. So if your audience or your target

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<v Speaker 2>audience like podcast, guess what, go out and be a

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<v Speaker 2>guest on a whole bunch of podcasts, and somebody else

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<v Speaker 2>did the hard job of curating the audience that you're

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<v Speaker 2>trying to reach, and all you've got to do is

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<v Speaker 2>be semi charming for twenty five minutes. I'm trying to

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<v Speaker 2>be semi charming for twenty five minutes, well.

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<v Speaker 1>Trying at least we all try for twenty five minutes

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<v Speaker 1>here on this show. Exactly So, Peter, though, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess the difference is now versus you know, if

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<v Speaker 1>somebody was coming into this like thirty years ago or something.

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<v Speaker 1>There are more are ways to reach the public without gatekeepers. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I just could plug in a microphone and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, load it onto Apple Podcasts if I want,

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<v Speaker 1>or you know substack. Obviously there's no barriers to entry there.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm curious, you know, how people can be smart about

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<v Speaker 1>that and careful, you know, with what they put out well,

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<v Speaker 1>also understanding that it's you know, there is just a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of iteration and seeing what works well.

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<v Speaker 2>I think there's two pieces to that. Just because we

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<v Speaker 2>can get on substack today or go out and buy

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<v Speaker 2>a microphone for one hundred bucks or whatever doesn't make

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<v Speaker 2>us anything right, because it's about is it an echo chamber?

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<v Speaker 2>Who's going to follow you? You have to put and

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<v Speaker 2>this is what I what I tell my clients. If

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<v Speaker 2>you're putting one hundred percent of the effort into the

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<v Speaker 2>creation of the content and putting it out there and

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<v Speaker 2>getting it up, you're missing the point. You got to

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<v Speaker 2>put at least thirty forty sometimes fifty percent of the

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<v Speaker 2>effort into finding and developing the right audience for you. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>How do you do that. Well, you could do things

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<v Speaker 2>like okay, well who else is out there that the

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<v Speaker 2>people but that I'm trying to reach or following to

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<v Speaker 2>our influence by or listening to put comments on their

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<v Speaker 2>LinkedIn thoughtful comments. You know, a thumbs up is not

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<v Speaker 2>a thoughtful comment, right, a thoughtful comment and as long

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<v Speaker 2>as it's respectful. Again, you don't have to agree or

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<v Speaker 2>disagree with that person, but say, hey, Lauria, you put

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<v Speaker 2>that post up there, and why I agreed with two

0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:17.800
<v Speaker 2>things you said. There's three things you said that I

0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:20.680
<v Speaker 2>don't agree with. And here's why. You know, people that

0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.040
<v Speaker 2>are following somebody else will start to look at that

0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.160
<v Speaker 2>and go, Okay, that guy Peter's a dope or he's

0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:27.079
<v Speaker 2>interesting or whatever, and then then he can choose to

0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.400
<v Speaker 2>follow me elsewhere. So I think you have to be

0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:33.080
<v Speaker 2>strategic and deliberate around developing the right audience because this

0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:35.839
<v Speaker 2>people get enamored with oh how many people or the

0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:38.800
<v Speaker 2>numbers or you know, followers and likes. It's not knowing

0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:41.000
<v Speaker 2>only about that, it's the right number of people.

0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:46.920
<v Speaker 1>I think the strategy of leaving thoughtful comments places is underappreciated, yes,

0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.560
<v Speaker 1>because they almost unless we're talking to somebody who's like

0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:52.920
<v Speaker 1>a household name. Yes, I feel like the comments do

0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:56.079
<v Speaker 1>get read in a way that yes, a thumbs up

0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:56.960
<v Speaker 1>just doesn't.

0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and a thumbs up isn't thoughtful, right, like who cares? Right,

0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.840
<v Speaker 2>but insightful or adding to what they say, or like

0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:06.520
<v Speaker 2>I said, as long as it's respectful. Because I think

0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.640
<v Speaker 2>there's this whole culture on the internet of you would

0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:11.439
<v Speaker 2>behave in a way that you wouldn't behave in a

0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.079
<v Speaker 2>room with somebody like and that's just not cool.

0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:17.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all right, So we're gonna we're gonna be trying

0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.120
<v Speaker 1>to leave thoughtful comments places where we're creating content. We're

0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.680
<v Speaker 1>finding the right market for our thoughts that that people

0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:25.559
<v Speaker 1>are going to be interested and we can add value.

0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:27.640
<v Speaker 1>Where do we find the time for all this? Like,

0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:31.920
<v Speaker 1>let's say somebody's you know, busy work, family, how do

0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:36.400
<v Speaker 1>you recommend carving out space for growing your idea in

0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:37.000
<v Speaker 1>your audience?

0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:39.720
<v Speaker 2>So I think time's an excuse because when people do

0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.880
<v Speaker 2>an honest audit of their time, what they say they're

0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:44.760
<v Speaker 2>doing and what they are doing are two different things.

0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:46.640
<v Speaker 2>Most people say, well, how do you spend your time? Well,

0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.440
<v Speaker 2>I spend three hours a day scrolling on TikTok really really,

0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:54.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, I think you find the time because you

0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:56.560
<v Speaker 2>have a strategy that says what's important and what's not,

0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.599
<v Speaker 2>and from that you have clarity. And once you have

0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:03.200
<v Speaker 2>class already, you can effectively prioritize what I could do?

0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.040
<v Speaker 2>Would you should do? Now? Might you need to maybe

0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:10.360
<v Speaker 2>sacrifice some binge time with Netflix? Yeah? But what's most

0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:12.400
<v Speaker 2>important to you? We get what we do, right, We

0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:14.640
<v Speaker 2>get the outcomes of the effort that we do. So,

0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, don't I don't believe in the hack of all.

0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:18.719
<v Speaker 2>I'll show you how to have twenty eight hours in

0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:20.680
<v Speaker 2>your day. Well you can't, but what are you willing

0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:22.880
<v Speaker 2>to get let go of? And sometimes we stay with

0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.480
<v Speaker 2>things that we enjoy. But it's like comfort food, right,

0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:28.600
<v Speaker 2>Like it's is it really helping us? Or do I

0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:30.319
<v Speaker 2>just continue to do this because this is what I've

0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:30.880
<v Speaker 2>always done.

0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:34.839
<v Speaker 1>And there's probably something to be said for just sort

0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.439
<v Speaker 1>of repurposing the time. I mean what people will do

0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.559
<v Speaker 1>is I mean they're reading twenty articles on LinkedIn instead

0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.199
<v Speaker 1>of reading the twenty read five from the people you're

0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:45.880
<v Speaker 1>really targeting, and then leave a thoughtful comment on all

0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:47.719
<v Speaker 1>of those five in the time that you.

0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:51.040
<v Speaker 2>Had correct right. I think that's a more effective way

0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:53.360
<v Speaker 2>to do it, because you know, we live in an

0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:57.640
<v Speaker 2>age that's unusual. Where it used to be information was scarce, right,

0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.800
<v Speaker 2>news was scarce. Now it's a bunch. And the flip

0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.000
<v Speaker 2>side of that is I'm drowning. Like I could spend

0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:06.319
<v Speaker 2>all day every day just doing you know, reading news

0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:09.040
<v Speaker 2>articles or on X or on whatever, and that's not

0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:10.800
<v Speaker 2>good right now. Now, the other side is you don't

0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:12.040
<v Speaker 2>want to put your head in the sand and be

0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:14.960
<v Speaker 2>an ostrich. So what does right mean for you?

0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:20.760
<v Speaker 1>Well, and I can imagine that you know, we keep

0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:23.480
<v Speaker 1>doing this. One of the things that might make this

0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.440
<v Speaker 1>work for people is just to be consistent and keep

0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:28.960
<v Speaker 1>going with it. And I imagine though at the beginning

0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:31.680
<v Speaker 1>you may not be getting a ton of feedback on it.

0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:35.400
<v Speaker 1>There may not be immediately getting new people responding, may

0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.320
<v Speaker 1>not immediately seeing results from all this. How would you

0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:43.800
<v Speaker 1>recommend kind of, you know, encouraging ourselves to keep going

0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:44.600
<v Speaker 1>and be consistent.

0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:46.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I think that's a key point. So I'll

0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.720
<v Speaker 2>give you a couple of examples. When you commit or

0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:51.760
<v Speaker 2>when you're going to and think in terms of an experiment,

0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:54.680
<v Speaker 2>because I think words matter, and experiments, by their very

0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.280
<v Speaker 2>nature either fail or don't. And the objective of an

0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.440
<v Speaker 2>experiment is to prove a hypothesis and learn. Right. So

0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:04.000
<v Speaker 2>if you say I'm going to experiment with a YouTube channel,

0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:07.160
<v Speaker 2>whatever it is, Okay, what is the duration of the experiment.

0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:10.400
<v Speaker 2>So when I started blogging years ago, I don't like

0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.360
<v Speaker 2>to write. I'm not the world's greatest writer. But I

0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:15.400
<v Speaker 2>knew that, Like you know, this is fifteen years ago,

0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:17.520
<v Speaker 2>when blogging was a thing. I needed to get with

0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:19.560
<v Speaker 2>the program. So the first thing I did is I

0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:21.560
<v Speaker 2>went to a bunch of friends that were successful bloggers

0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:23.720
<v Speaker 2>and I said, tell me, tell me what I should do.

0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:25.440
<v Speaker 2>They said, the content will be easy for you. You

0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:29.240
<v Speaker 2>never have a shortage of something to say. It's the commitment.

0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.200
<v Speaker 2>So commit to writing one hundred blogs. And I'm like,

0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.920
<v Speaker 2>oh my god, that that seems like a lot. And

0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:36.680
<v Speaker 2>I said, well, why why one hundred? Why not ten?

0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.480
<v Speaker 2>They're like, that's the point. You know, you're you're the attention,

0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, the add ceo, blah blah blah. If you

0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:44.800
<v Speaker 2>don't commit to enough, you can convince yourself that the

0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.040
<v Speaker 2>experiment failed when it might have not. So I think

0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:51.080
<v Speaker 2>everything's got a number. Like so when we when we

0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:52.760
<v Speaker 2>moved to a podcast, I said, all right, I'm going

0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.240
<v Speaker 2>to do fifty of those, and I had some ideas

0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:57.520
<v Speaker 2>as to what success would look like. So what would

0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:59.600
<v Speaker 2>success look like? What are the trends that you're looking

0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.680
<v Speaker 2>to do? And do some research and commit to a

0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:04.800
<v Speaker 2>realistic number, because far too many people, I think the

0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:08.040
<v Speaker 2>last data said I saw I was like seven percent

0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:11.080
<v Speaker 2>of podcast out there haven't published in the last ninety days,

0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:13.840
<v Speaker 2>which means they failed. Now maybe fails the wrong word.

0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:18.160
<v Speaker 2>They discontinued that experiment, right, And then you look and say, well,

0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:20.320
<v Speaker 2>how many have made it to fifty one hundred? You know,

0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm up to seven hundred and fifty. So people look

0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.720
<v Speaker 2>at that like I climbed Mount Everest and I stuck

0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:28.280
<v Speaker 2>with it. And I didn't stuck with this because I'm

0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:30.680
<v Speaker 2>silly and stubborn. That may be true. I stuck with

0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:32.560
<v Speaker 2>it because it worked for me based on the objectives

0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.720
<v Speaker 2>that I wanted it to achieve. And until those objectives change,

0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:37.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to keep rocking and rolling with it because

0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:39.400
<v Speaker 2>I love it, I enjoy it, and it has a

0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:40.320
<v Speaker 2>yield to us.

0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:43.400
<v Speaker 1>So set a time limit for your experiment, and then

0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:45.720
<v Speaker 1>you can see you can keep yourself going toward that,

0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:47.520
<v Speaker 1>and then you can evaluate whether it's working, whether you

0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:49.600
<v Speaker 1>keep going, whether you do something else. We're going to

0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:51.240
<v Speaker 1>take one more quick ad break and then i'll be

0:16:51.280 --> 0:17:00.880
<v Speaker 1>back with more from Peter Wick. Well, I am back

0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.600
<v Speaker 1>talking with Peter Winnick, who is the CEO of Thought

0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.439
<v Speaker 1>Leadership Leverage and the co author of the brand new book,

0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:10.760
<v Speaker 1>The Thought Leadership Handbook. So I want to pivot to

0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:14.520
<v Speaker 1>your schedule. So, Peter, do you have a morning routine.

0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:18.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I tend to get up at the same time. Right,

0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Coffee's critical critical life alteringly critical, So it's coffee. I

0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:28.440
<v Speaker 2>try not to go down the email rabbit hole, but

0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:30.359
<v Speaker 2>I do check emails like first thing, just to make

0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:32.720
<v Speaker 2>sure nothing's on fire and blah blah blah, and respond

0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:36.200
<v Speaker 2>to things that happen because my team works all over

0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:37.920
<v Speaker 2>the place and my clients are global, So check in

0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:40.399
<v Speaker 2>on email just enough to get it done, you know,

0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:42.639
<v Speaker 2>maybe twenty minutes. And then I like to have quiet

0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:46.320
<v Speaker 2>time with coffee where I'm catching up on reading and

0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.760
<v Speaker 2>things like that, whether it's a you know, books, I'm reading, articles,

0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.439
<v Speaker 2>I'm reading whatever, that's a good time for me to

0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.760
<v Speaker 2>do that. What else is part of the routine. The

0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:57.520
<v Speaker 2>one part of the routine that's probably a bit quirky

0:17:57.600 --> 0:17:59.880
<v Speaker 2>is every morning I post a picture of my dog

0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.919
<v Speaker 2>her Instagram. So I'm the social media manager for a

0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:03.440
<v Speaker 2>friends shiet.

0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.600
<v Speaker 1>Your dog has an Instagram. What does your dog's instagram handle?

0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:07.640
<v Speaker 2>Zadi the frenchie.

0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:10.440
<v Speaker 1>Zadi the Frenchie. All right, so people can go check

0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:12.480
<v Speaker 1>that out. I love that as a morning routine. What

0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:13.920
<v Speaker 1>do you What do you read in that that hour?

0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.120
<v Speaker 1>You said you're spending reading? What are you usually looking at?

0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:19.360
<v Speaker 2>So usually I'm in the middle of a book or two,

0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:22.360
<v Speaker 2>so I try to spend some time on that. It's

0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:24.359
<v Speaker 2>it's not client work at that time. Later on, as

0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.320
<v Speaker 2>client workers, I'm constantly reading for clients. So usually book

0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:32.119
<v Speaker 2>usually news articles, et cetera. And then anything that I

0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.280
<v Speaker 2>might have bookmarked or printed out that says this thisneys

0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:36.320
<v Speaker 2>little quiet time I'm not. I don't like to read

0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:39.000
<v Speaker 2>on my lap I like to read on my kindle,

0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:41.760
<v Speaker 2>like articles and things. If it's more than three four pages,

0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:43.320
<v Speaker 2>I just prefer to print it out and read it.

0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:44.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm kind of a dinosaur that way.

0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:47.679
<v Speaker 1>I like it. What does the rest of your schedule

0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.399
<v Speaker 1>look like after after this reading, after we've we've posted

0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:52.160
<v Speaker 1>about Zadi the French schie, then what happens?

0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:56.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, Well, then we check Zadi's stats because that's important.

0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:59.320
<v Speaker 1>She did well, Yeah, answer Zadi's comments for her.

0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.960
<v Speaker 2>Doesn't have thumbs. So people, I think understand that I'm

0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:06.040
<v Speaker 2>sort of the voice of eighty you know. Then I'm

0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.480
<v Speaker 2>at my desk wherever that might be, and I spend

0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.520
<v Speaker 2>a lot of time on zoom and talking to clients,

0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.400
<v Speaker 2>pre pairing for the podcast, doing interviews for the podcast,

0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.840
<v Speaker 2>doing client work, thinking about what we're doing next in

0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.080
<v Speaker 2>the business. So I'm you know, running and operating the business,

0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:23.400
<v Speaker 2>working with clients, doing my thing.

0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:27.120
<v Speaker 1>What time do you tend to end for the day?

0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:32.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that depends. Usually I've I've wrapped up by late afternoon.

0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.119
<v Speaker 2>But it doesn't mean that there isn't that invisible second

0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.320
<v Speaker 2>shift that we all lie to ourselves about. So what

0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:39.119
<v Speaker 2>I don't what I'm good at is I don't go

0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:42.440
<v Speaker 2>back into the office in the house or whatever sort

0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:43.960
<v Speaker 2>of after I leave it for the day. But it

0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:46.159
<v Speaker 2>doesn't mean I won't check emails on the phone and

0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:47.840
<v Speaker 2>respond and all that sort of things.

0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:50.480
<v Speaker 1>What do you like to do for fun in the evenings.

0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:53.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that could be. I could range from red wine

0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:55.760
<v Speaker 2>to cabernet to this time of year, tequila is a

0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:59.199
<v Speaker 2>big play reading more. You know, this time of year,

0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:00.879
<v Speaker 2>it's great to be out in the out and enjoy

0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:07.479
<v Speaker 2>the extended daylight, out to eat dining theater sounds wonderful.

0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:10.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, lovely. Do you have any particular routines that you

0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:12.640
<v Speaker 1>think make you more productive?

0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:18.280
<v Speaker 2>Routines that make me productive? Yeah, I'm fanatical about cleaning

0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:21.280
<v Speaker 2>out email. I don't like to let it accumulate, and

0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:22.840
<v Speaker 2>I think the trick for that and I'm not one

0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:24.520
<v Speaker 2>of these like don't check your emails in the morning

0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.679
<v Speaker 2>or here's the five hacks respond, get it done, get

0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:29.480
<v Speaker 2>it out, Like I don't like to get back and

0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:32.280
<v Speaker 2>look at my emails and there's like eighty seven emails

0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:34.480
<v Speaker 2>that need a thing because the reality is most of

0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.000
<v Speaker 2>the actions for most of our emails most of the time,

0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:39.600
<v Speaker 2>are really really quick and it's just as quick to

0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:42.919
<v Speaker 2>do it. Then, you know, then that compounding effect of

0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:43.920
<v Speaker 2>having to get through a lot.

0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:47.440
<v Speaker 1>So do you have designated times you check it? Then

0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:49.320
<v Speaker 1>during the day you're sort of constantly in it. I'm

0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:50.960
<v Speaker 1>curious because a lot of people struggle with that, like

0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.440
<v Speaker 1>to do focused work and be responsibile.

0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, to me, it's fairly constant, maybe to a fault,

0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:00.359
<v Speaker 2>except when I'm carving out sort of thinking times, carve

0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:02.399
<v Speaker 2>out time to like really dive into client work and

0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:04.280
<v Speaker 2>that sort of thing. I don't want to be checking

0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:05.720
<v Speaker 2>the emails all the time. And we live in the

0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:07.800
<v Speaker 2>age of the ding ding ding and the alert and

0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:09.199
<v Speaker 2>the this and the that. So I think that's the

0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:12.960
<v Speaker 2>other pieces. You control more of this than you realize. Right.

0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:15.639
<v Speaker 2>The default to everything that you sign up for is

0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:17.520
<v Speaker 2>to alert the heck out of you, Right, Do you

0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:19.439
<v Speaker 2>really need that alert? Do you really need to know

0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:23.679
<v Speaker 2>every time somebody did whatever on whatever social media platform

0:21:23.680 --> 0:21:26.240
<v Speaker 2>the answers know, Like you just don't, right, And if

0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:28.960
<v Speaker 2>I got an alert for every time somebody hit a

0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.320
<v Speaker 2>like or a comment or whatever, like, my head would explode. Right.

0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:34.960
<v Speaker 2>So I think you need to take control of what

0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:37.280
<v Speaker 2>you want to get alerted to and when and why.

0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:41.879
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely so, Peter. I ask all my guests, what

0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:44.600
<v Speaker 1>is something you have done recently to take a day

0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:46.040
<v Speaker 1>from great to awesome?

0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:51.639
<v Speaker 2>Something I've done to take a day from great to Austin.

0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:55.000
<v Speaker 2>I try. I've been trying to various degrees of success

0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:57.439
<v Speaker 2>of trying to be in the moment more more often.

0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:00.720
<v Speaker 2>So not just an entire day, but like, you know, hey,

0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:03.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm at the beach, Like the beach is really great, Okay,

0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:07.000
<v Speaker 2>this is fun. Like I brought, you know, three newspapers,

0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:08.960
<v Speaker 2>five books and whatever. Can I just enjoy the beach

0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:13.160
<v Speaker 2>for like ten minutes? You know? So I think being

0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:17.960
<v Speaker 2>present being the moment, you know, I am. I have

0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:21.080
<v Speaker 2>a complete utter failure at things like meditation, like that's

0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:23.880
<v Speaker 2>just not going to happen for me. But just trying

0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:25.800
<v Speaker 2>to be more in the moment. I think even being

0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:29.520
<v Speaker 2>present when you're out and about with friends, you know,

0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:32.880
<v Speaker 2>I find it really annoying and obnoxious. You're at dinner

0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:34.720
<v Speaker 2>with friends, it's a Friday night, a Saturday night, you know,

0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:37.119
<v Speaker 2>like whatever, and everybody's whipping out their front I'm like,

0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:39.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, what are you doing? You're checking your your

0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:42.480
<v Speaker 2>Instagram or you're like really, you know, you're not a number.

0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:43.919
<v Speaker 2>You know, you're not a brain surgeon. You didn't just

0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:46.760
<v Speaker 2>perform surgery, and you're hoping a patient lives, like, you know,

0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:49.960
<v Speaker 2>you're checking I don't know, whatever, whatever the latest silliness

0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:54.639
<v Speaker 2>is on that you should you should check because she

0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:56.840
<v Speaker 2>does different things every day, but once a day you

0:22:56.840 --> 0:22:57.399
<v Speaker 2>could check that.

0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:01.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, exactly. Is there any sort of thing that

0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:03.840
<v Speaker 1>you kind of say to you said you're not a meditator,

0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:06.520
<v Speaker 1>but like to remind yourself to be present? I mean,

0:23:06.560 --> 0:23:08.720
<v Speaker 1>what what you know? You're like going around and be like, Okay,

0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:10.720
<v Speaker 1>how do you focus your brain to do that?

0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:13.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Well, I if I was able to master that,

0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:16.960
<v Speaker 2>things might be different. You know. I just try to

0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:20.160
<v Speaker 2>be cognizant of where am I, what am I doing,

0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:23.159
<v Speaker 2>who am I with? You know, if I feel the

0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:25.600
<v Speaker 2>urge to keep grabbing for my you know, pocket like

0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:28.080
<v Speaker 2>a like a you know, cowboy going for the pistol.

0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:30.119
<v Speaker 2>One of the things I'll ask myself is do I

0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:32.159
<v Speaker 2>even want to be here? Like did I? Did I

0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:35.119
<v Speaker 2>say yes to an event or a dinner or a

0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:37.320
<v Speaker 2>cocktails with someone that, quite frankly, I don't really want

0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:38.919
<v Speaker 2>to be with. Then make a note of that and

0:23:38.920 --> 0:23:40.480
<v Speaker 2>don't do that again, because I think the other thing

0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:44.200
<v Speaker 2>that happens is yes seems great in the moment, and

0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:46.600
<v Speaker 2>one of the things. I'll sort of a hack that

0:23:46.640 --> 0:23:49.159
<v Speaker 2>I learned years ago, is Okay, before you commit to

0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:51.960
<v Speaker 2>that phone call, that drink that whether it's social or personal,

0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:54.680
<v Speaker 2>think about it's the day that thing is going to happen.

0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:57.080
<v Speaker 2>And you see it on your calendar. Do you go

0:23:58.160 --> 0:23:59.840
<v Speaker 2>or do you go? Yes? Like I like to wake

0:23:59.920 --> 0:24:01.720
<v Speaker 2>up up and you know, look at my calendar, go this,

0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:03.199
<v Speaker 2>this is great. Like I'm going to talk to a

0:24:03.200 --> 0:24:05.520
<v Speaker 2>bunch of cool, interesting, fun people. If I see the

0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:07.399
<v Speaker 2>one that gets me to Gough, I'm like, how did

0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:09.399
<v Speaker 2>it get on the calendar? Like I have control over that.

0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:10.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't. I don't need to talk to Jeorks, I

0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:12.120
<v Speaker 2>don't need to go to dinner with people I don't

0:24:12.119 --> 0:24:15.000
<v Speaker 2>want to be with. Like you control that and control it,

0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:15.320
<v Speaker 2>you know.

0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:18.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, We're always saying around here, ask yourself if you

0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:19.680
<v Speaker 1>do it tomorrow?

0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:20.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah exactly.

0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:23.679
<v Speaker 1>It's easy to say yes for for you in October,

0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:25.680
<v Speaker 1>but you know you in October is still going to

0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:28.399
<v Speaker 1>be you, right, and when you will not have changed

0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:28.720
<v Speaker 1>your life.

0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:30.000
<v Speaker 2>Right, when you're get in the car and sitting in

0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:31.560
<v Speaker 2>traffic to go to the lunch that you don't want

0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:33.919
<v Speaker 2>to go to, you're like, why did I like, you know,

0:24:33.960 --> 0:24:35.600
<v Speaker 2>you could have said no to this six weeks ago.

0:24:36.520 --> 0:24:40.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely so, Peter. Where can people find you?

0:24:40.720 --> 0:24:44.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so you could find me. Our website is thought

0:24:44.840 --> 0:24:48.600
<v Speaker 2>Leadership Leverage dot com. My email is Peter at thought

0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:52.399
<v Speaker 2>leadership Leverage dot com. And then you know LinkedIn and

0:24:52.720 --> 0:24:54.640
<v Speaker 2>the usual socials.

0:24:55.320 --> 0:24:57.280
<v Speaker 1>So if you're going to his LinkedIn page, make sure

0:24:57.280 --> 0:24:59.480
<v Speaker 1>you leave thoughtful comments because, as we know, they do

0:24:59.560 --> 0:24:59.960
<v Speaker 1>get read.

0:25:00.400 --> 0:25:03.040
<v Speaker 2>Yes, you know, And that's the other thing. Even people

0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:05.240
<v Speaker 2>that you think are sort of you know, big to

0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:09.119
<v Speaker 2>dos or whatever, when thoughtful comments are there, more often

0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:11.600
<v Speaker 2>than not, they're reading them because they want to know

0:25:11.960 --> 0:25:14.600
<v Speaker 2>how are people responding there? As insecure as you are, right,

0:25:14.600 --> 0:25:16.159
<v Speaker 2>they want to know how are people responding to that

0:25:16.200 --> 0:25:17.960
<v Speaker 2>idea I put out? Because we all have a bit

0:25:18.000 --> 0:25:19.639
<v Speaker 2>of imposter syndrome. We all want to know if that

0:25:19.760 --> 0:25:22.520
<v Speaker 2>thing that I've been polishing landed or it didn't, so

0:25:22.560 --> 0:25:24.880
<v Speaker 2>I could pivot and change and make it better or

0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:25.959
<v Speaker 2>discontinue it.

0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:29.520
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely all right, Well, Peter, thank you so much for

0:25:29.600 --> 0:25:32.359
<v Speaker 1>joining us. Thank you to everyone for listening. If you

0:25:32.440 --> 0:25:35.679
<v Speaker 1>have feedback about this or any other episode, you can

0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:39.520
<v Speaker 1>always reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

0:25:39.920 --> 0:25:43.399
<v Speaker 1>In the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and

0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:52.879
<v Speaker 1>here's to making the most of our time. Thanks for

0:25:52.960 --> 0:25:57.720
<v Speaker 1>listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback,

0:25:58.040 --> 0:26:07.400
<v Speaker 1>you can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

0:26:07.480 --> 0:26:11.560
<v Speaker 1>Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts

0:26:11.560 --> 0:26:16.159
<v Speaker 1>from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:18.040
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