WEBVTT - The Inaugural Episode 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:24.396 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:24.396 --> 0:00:27.956 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:28.436 --> 0:00:32.196 I'm Noah Feldman. This episode comes at the end of 0:00:32.196 --> 0:00:36.836 one of the most tumultuous presidencies in US history, and 0:00:37.156 --> 0:00:40.836 this episode is coming out on January twentieth, the day 0:00:40.876 --> 0:00:43.876 Donald Trump will leave the White House and Joe Biden 0:00:43.996 --> 0:00:46.836 will become the forty sixth President of the United States. 0:00:47.756 --> 0:00:50.476 This episode also comes at the beginning of a new 0:00:50.596 --> 0:00:54.156 season here on Deep Background. This year on the show 0:00:54.396 --> 0:00:58.316 will be exploring the theme of power. Who has it, 0:00:58.836 --> 0:01:01.916 how do they get it, who doesn't have it? And why? 0:01:02.236 --> 0:01:06.276 How has power used? What is power in different realms? 0:01:06.996 --> 0:01:11.276 And how does power shape events. Over the course of 0:01:11.276 --> 0:01:15.596 the year, we'll be discussing many forms of power, well 0:01:15.676 --> 0:01:20.396 beyond the strictly legal or political or constitution. To start 0:01:20.436 --> 0:01:23.516 off this new season, given the January sixth attack on 0:01:23.636 --> 0:01:27.796 Congress and Trump's second impeachment, We're going to talk today 0:01:28.116 --> 0:01:32.676 about how power functions in the presence. To discuss this, 0:01:32.876 --> 0:01:36.436 I'm joined by Professor Douglas Brinkley. He's a professor at 0:01:36.476 --> 0:01:40.036 Rice University, the official US presidential historian of the new 0:01:40.076 --> 0:01:43.796 York Historical Society, a contributor to CNN, and a best 0:01:43.836 --> 0:01:47.996 selling author whose most recent book is American Moonshop. John F. 0:01:48.116 --> 0:01:51.756 Kennedy and the Great Space Race. Doug, thank you so 0:01:51.836 --> 0:01:58.316 much for being here today. Let's begin with the capital 0:01:58.396 --> 0:02:03.956 storming on January sixth. There's no immediate precedent for an 0:02:03.956 --> 0:02:07.196 event like this. My mind immediately went to the moment 0:02:07.276 --> 0:02:09.276 in the War of eighteen twelve when the capital was 0:02:09.316 --> 0:02:12.996 actually burned, but that was by a battle hardened force 0:02:13.196 --> 0:02:17.836 of British regulars who swept away the state militias who 0:02:17.996 --> 0:02:20.476 briefly tried to block them at Bladensburg, So it's a 0:02:20.476 --> 0:02:23.316 pretty different scenario. What did it call to your mind 0:02:23.596 --> 0:02:26.516 when you try to think about this bizarre event, an 0:02:26.556 --> 0:02:30.516 upsetting event in historical context. Well, no, I immediately did 0:02:30.556 --> 0:02:33.556 what you did. I pulled back and thought, gosh, what's 0:02:33.596 --> 0:02:35.716 going on here? And I did think for a minute 0:02:35.716 --> 0:02:39.036 about the War of eighteen twelve, and I did recall 0:02:39.196 --> 0:02:42.516 when Washington was attacked during nine to eleven, and our 0:02:42.596 --> 0:02:46.116 Pentagogue was hit, and the Capitol had been a target, 0:02:46.196 --> 0:02:49.796 and I remember scares of anthrax and the like, with 0:02:49.836 --> 0:02:53.676 some people running out of building but they were kind 0:02:53.716 --> 0:02:56.796 of frivolous comparisons. I mean here, the fact of the 0:02:56.836 --> 0:03:01.716 matter was a group of our fellows, citizens mob were 0:03:01.756 --> 0:03:06.276 going in and destroying the US capital on a hunt 0:03:06.836 --> 0:03:09.276 for the Speaker of the House and the Vice Press, 0:03:09.596 --> 0:03:14.436 with ostensibly the order to hang them or do something 0:03:14.516 --> 0:03:19.156 horrible to them. That was unprecedented, and that, to me 0:03:19.316 --> 0:03:22.636 is a day that will live in infamy. January sixth 0:03:22.796 --> 0:03:26.276 is not to be forgotten. Likely, just like we have 0:03:26.316 --> 0:03:29.716 a nine to eleven museum in New York City, there 0:03:29.756 --> 0:03:32.796 will be a museum by the capital to talk about 0:03:32.796 --> 0:03:37.276 what happened in that day when the insurruction occurred, and 0:03:37.316 --> 0:03:40.436 so I thought it to be an extremely frightening day 0:03:40.516 --> 0:03:44.076 for our democracy. That's a fascinating idea of a museum 0:03:44.276 --> 0:03:47.236 or an exhibit even in a museum, to commemorate those events. 0:03:47.236 --> 0:03:49.156 And it leads me to a question that I've been 0:03:49.196 --> 0:03:51.236 really puzzling over and I don't feel I have a 0:03:51.236 --> 0:03:54.396 good answer to it, and that is, will we achieve 0:03:54.516 --> 0:03:58.676 the kind of consensus on the meaning of those events 0:03:58.716 --> 0:04:02.116 over time that is usually the precondition for some kind 0:04:02.156 --> 0:04:05.476 of a public recognition in the form of a museum 0:04:05.676 --> 0:04:08.596 or a monument, because there is an impulse now to say, well, look, 0:04:09.116 --> 0:04:11.516 Donald Trump was the president, he spoke to this crowd 0:04:11.636 --> 0:04:15.836 before they stormed the capitol. He's been impeached under an 0:04:15.876 --> 0:04:20.716 article of impeachment that accused him of inciting insurrection. Those 0:04:20.756 --> 0:04:24.236 are two major words, incitement and insurrection. They're both invoked there. 0:04:24.516 --> 0:04:27.396 And all of that is of course partisan in some 0:04:27.516 --> 0:04:31.156 powerful way. For us to get to a place where 0:04:31.196 --> 0:04:33.556 we say, you know, let's memorialize this would probably would 0:04:33.556 --> 0:04:36.116 be necessary to think of this as an outlying event 0:04:36.396 --> 0:04:39.836 that wasn't closely associated with one of the two major 0:04:39.916 --> 0:04:43.476 political parties. Oh, excellent point, and that's actually why I 0:04:43.636 --> 0:04:46.676 mentioned it. I think that day will come, you know, 0:04:46.716 --> 0:04:48.956 I think the country will unite that this was a 0:04:48.996 --> 0:04:53.196 really rotten thing that occurred, the insurrection. But I don't 0:04:53.236 --> 0:04:56.676 think it's a date that's easily forgotten to select. In 0:04:56.836 --> 0:05:01.796 April twenty fifth, when the Oklahoma City was bombed. Well, 0:05:01.836 --> 0:05:04.916 in Oklahoma City, they have a beautiful museum there. They 0:05:04.916 --> 0:05:07.996 have the empty chairs of all the dead, and they 0:05:08.076 --> 0:05:12.356 explain that event of Timothy McVeigh and right wing extremism 0:05:12.436 --> 0:05:17.636 quite well. It's a marvelously curated museum. That's an Oklahoma. 0:05:17.836 --> 0:05:20.476 This is in our nation's capital, where all the school 0:05:20.556 --> 0:05:24.036 kids come, where everybody goes to visit to study democracy. 0:05:24.516 --> 0:05:26.956 So this is going to be, I think, studied like 0:05:27.076 --> 0:05:31.116 Ford's Theater where where Lincoln was killed, as an anti site, 0:05:31.116 --> 0:05:35.196 a site where something went terribly wrong with our democracy. 0:05:35.996 --> 0:05:39.196 Your comparison to the Oklahoma City bombing is really an 0:05:39.236 --> 0:05:41.476 important one. I was lucky enough to have on the 0:05:41.516 --> 0:05:44.996 program professor Kathleen Bellew from University of Chicago in the 0:05:45.036 --> 0:05:47.876 history department there, who works on the white supremacy movement, 0:05:48.316 --> 0:05:51.916 and she treats the McVeigh bombing in Oklahoma City as 0:05:51.916 --> 0:05:54.356 a central event in the history of that movement. And 0:05:54.436 --> 0:05:58.596 she's been saying recently that she sees the capital attack 0:05:58.716 --> 0:06:02.476 as itself a manifestation of what is essentially the same movement. 0:06:02.796 --> 0:06:04.396 And I think to the extent that we do come 0:06:04.436 --> 0:06:06.596 to see it that way, you're going to be proven 0:06:06.676 --> 0:06:10.916 right that we can peripheralize the events of that day. 0:06:11.076 --> 0:06:14.716 The question that I have is what about the denial 0:06:15.116 --> 0:06:19.116 of the legitimacy of the twenty twenty election results that 0:06:19.316 --> 0:06:23.396 was closely associated with the attack. That goes way beyond 0:06:23.996 --> 0:06:27.156 the people who attacked the Capitol Right now, these numbers 0:06:27.156 --> 0:06:29.396 will change, but right now close to seventy percent of 0:06:29.436 --> 0:06:33.556 Republicans are telling posters that they believe that the twenty 0:06:33.596 --> 0:06:37.276 twenty election was illegitimate, and that too is going to 0:06:37.356 --> 0:06:40.396 have to be assimilated into the historical record in some way. 0:06:40.396 --> 0:06:42.836 In fact, that's a dispute about the very facts of 0:06:42.876 --> 0:06:45.436 the historical record. You know, who won the election. How 0:06:45.476 --> 0:06:49.996 do you anticipate that structure I would call it a 0:06:50.036 --> 0:06:53.556 structure of denial will work itself out over time. Well, 0:06:53.556 --> 0:06:55.756 it is a structure of denial, and that's a perfect 0:06:55.836 --> 0:06:59.396 way to put it. Noah, I worry about it. I 0:06:59.516 --> 0:07:02.116 have a feeling that there will be a lot of 0:07:02.156 --> 0:07:06.836 those people that will admit that the January sixth insurrection was, 0:07:07.396 --> 0:07:10.276 you know, shouldn't have happened. That it was a cantful 0:07:10.316 --> 0:07:15.196 of real zealots that were responsible. It didn't represent the 0:07:15.196 --> 0:07:18.556 Trump movement or the seventy million plus people that voted 0:07:18.636 --> 0:07:21.476 for Trump. But when you had that high a number, 0:07:21.476 --> 0:07:25.716 who thinks the election of twenty twenty was rigged? That 0:07:25.796 --> 0:07:29.916 really is a reprogramming or re education process. I don't 0:07:29.956 --> 0:07:33.036 know where to begin on that. All I can tell 0:07:33.116 --> 0:07:36.156 you is that twenty twenty was a model of how 0:07:36.156 --> 0:07:40.036 a free and fair election should be run. We ran 0:07:40.156 --> 0:07:43.796 a great election in twenty twenty. And why it disturbs 0:07:43.876 --> 0:07:46.356 me is I see that as one of our great exports. 0:07:46.916 --> 0:07:49.796 The American brand is all about we know how to 0:07:49.876 --> 0:07:53.836 do free and fair elections. It's why Jimmy Carter's ex 0:07:53.916 --> 0:07:57.516 president could go to Nicaragua or go to Panama and 0:07:57.596 --> 0:08:00.396 say I'm a former American president and I'll be judged 0:08:00.396 --> 0:08:03.116 whether you did a free or fair one here. We've 0:08:03.636 --> 0:08:07.716 made that our signature service for democracy in America. So 0:08:07.876 --> 0:08:10.436 the challenge that we don't know how to count votes 0:08:11.196 --> 0:08:14.996 is really a direct and central attack at the nervous 0:08:15.036 --> 0:08:20.236 system of what makes our democratic body politique work. And 0:08:20.396 --> 0:08:24.316 I hope more and more people will start dropping off 0:08:24.316 --> 0:08:30.556 of that stance and recognizing they were hoodwinked by talk radio, internet, 0:08:30.676 --> 0:08:35.596 post by hate sites, or just by a refusal to 0:08:35.636 --> 0:08:39.716 accept that their team had lost that maybe over time 0:08:39.796 --> 0:08:42.756 people will come to their senses, but there's always going 0:08:42.836 --> 0:08:46.396 to be a twenty percent of the American public that 0:08:46.476 --> 0:08:51.036 will always think that this was a fixed and rigged election. 0:08:51.116 --> 0:08:54.116 And that's that twenty percent that Donald Trump will carry 0:08:54.436 --> 0:08:57.596 around in his hip pocket even as ex president. Well, 0:08:57.596 --> 0:09:00.476 speaking of Trump and carrying that twenty percent around and 0:09:00.596 --> 0:09:05.156 its structure of denial. Trump's decision that he will not 0:09:05.236 --> 0:09:09.956 attend the inauguration, I think, really underscores that he's trying 0:09:09.996 --> 0:09:13.476 to say, not just I don't like Joe Biden, but 0:09:13.596 --> 0:09:16.716 I don't think Joe Biden is genuinely the president of 0:09:16.756 --> 0:09:19.356 the United States. I was trying to explain to my 0:09:19.436 --> 0:09:21.596 kids why I thought it was such a big deal 0:09:21.636 --> 0:09:24.916 for the president not to attend an inauguration, And I 0:09:24.916 --> 0:09:27.436 tried to explain it hadn't happened since Andrew Johnson and 0:09:27.756 --> 0:09:30.236 that it was a central symbol of transition. And they 0:09:30.276 --> 0:09:33.476 looked at me. You know, they're fourteen and fifteen. They 0:09:33.476 --> 0:09:35.636 look at me blankly a lot as if you know, Dad, 0:09:35.636 --> 0:09:37.036 we don't know what you're talking about. And they just 0:09:37.036 --> 0:09:39.516 said to me, Dad, why would you ever have expected 0:09:39.556 --> 0:09:43.476 Donald Trump, under any circumstances to attend the inauguration of 0:09:43.516 --> 0:09:45.876 his success Right? That was a fair point that they made. 0:09:46.356 --> 0:09:48.876 How do you think about that decision? Is it something 0:09:48.876 --> 0:09:51.876 that will ultimately contribute to the delegitimation of the transition? 0:09:52.676 --> 0:09:55.556 You know, I have a fourteen, fifteen, and sixteen year old. 0:09:55.636 --> 0:09:58.396 I have three in high school right now, and they 0:09:58.396 --> 0:10:01.116 would all say the exact same thing to me. They're 0:10:01.196 --> 0:10:03.276 kind of on to the fact growing up. I think 0:10:03.276 --> 0:10:05.516 in the age of Trump that you're never going to 0:10:05.596 --> 0:10:09.476 have a sense of reconciliation. They grew up with neo 0:10:09.596 --> 0:10:13.276 Civil War and they haven't experienced a healing moment that 0:10:13.676 --> 0:10:18.996 we keep talking about. It's a tragedy at least. I 0:10:19.076 --> 0:10:21.596 first thought it was that Trump wasn't coming to the 0:10:21.636 --> 0:10:25.436 Biden inauguration because if he would have shook Biden's hand, 0:10:25.476 --> 0:10:29.716 it would have symbolically been omitted as difficult as it 0:10:29.796 --> 0:10:33.996 was for him that Biden and won. But after January sixth, 0:10:34.036 --> 0:10:37.476 I say good riddance. I think Trump at the inaugural 0:10:37.556 --> 0:10:41.836 would have been a distraction by not very forgiving of 0:10:41.956 --> 0:10:45.116 Trump for January sixth, when you have five people that 0:10:45.196 --> 0:10:48.156 are killed, and that you run a reign of terror 0:10:48.156 --> 0:10:53.196 through our capital against our representatives and people having to 0:10:53.676 --> 0:10:58.556 either catch COVID, have terror trauma, nightmare attacks, hiding in 0:10:59.036 --> 0:11:03.396 closets and corners. You know. So I've been asked a lot, 0:11:03.596 --> 0:11:06.436 as you can imagine. Noah from the press to talk 0:11:06.476 --> 0:11:09.836 about why did John Adams not show? While for John 0:11:09.916 --> 0:11:13.716 Quincy Adams or Andrew Johnson, the fact of the matter 0:11:13.916 --> 0:11:17.836 was after the Civil War, when Andrew Johnson refused to 0:11:18.436 --> 0:11:22.156 go to Grant's inaugural, He spent the inaugural in the 0:11:22.196 --> 0:11:26.956 White House, claiming he was doing paperwork, desk work, and 0:11:27.036 --> 0:11:29.876 so he was in Washington. He just refused to go. 0:11:30.516 --> 0:11:33.236 It stuck a bone in the throat of the nation, 0:11:33.716 --> 0:11:37.116 and we decided really collectively after that to make sure 0:11:37.196 --> 0:11:40.556 that the president's there for the transition. I found that 0:11:40.876 --> 0:11:43.836 moment of the transition sort of the crown jewel of 0:11:43.836 --> 0:11:49.956 our democratic process. It's the coronation, which legitimizes all of 0:11:49.996 --> 0:11:54.596 the mud slinging and debating and belittling and all the 0:11:54.756 --> 0:11:58.276 ugly side of American politics. He suddenly get the reward 0:11:58.836 --> 0:12:03.316 of the great hug, the great moment of friendship that 0:12:03.396 --> 0:12:06.876 emerges out of two adversaries. We see this in every 0:12:06.956 --> 0:12:10.036 sports game, right A team loses and then the coaches 0:12:10.116 --> 0:12:13.356 go hug each other, players talk to each other. We 0:12:13.556 --> 0:12:17.516 teach our young people to be good losers as well 0:12:17.556 --> 0:12:22.156 as winners. But Trump's refusal just sets him apart as 0:12:22.196 --> 0:12:26.516 a very small man, as somebody who's not well liked, 0:12:26.676 --> 0:12:31.036 doesn't really have any personal friends, a loner in his 0:12:31.116 --> 0:12:35.636 own way. And you probably not being on the inaugural 0:12:35.716 --> 0:12:38.316 stage was a good thing at the end, because I 0:12:38.356 --> 0:12:40.916 would have been looking for the blood on his hands 0:12:40.956 --> 0:12:43.796 if he was standing there, I would have been feeling, 0:12:43.876 --> 0:12:47.396 how dare you have the gall to even be here today? 0:12:47.876 --> 0:12:52.916 I got that angry at Trump over January sixth, Doug. 0:12:53.236 --> 0:12:55.076 One of the themes that I'm going to try to 0:12:55.116 --> 0:12:59.556 explore in this new year is power and how it's created, 0:13:00.236 --> 0:13:04.236 and how it weakens and how it grows. And I'm 0:13:04.276 --> 0:13:08.116 wondering whether you think when you wear your historian of 0:13:08.156 --> 0:13:10.876 the presidency had not just a starting of particular presidents, 0:13:10.916 --> 0:13:14.676 but of the presidency as an institution. Whether Trump is 0:13:14.716 --> 0:13:19.836 emerging from his presidency having strengthened the presidency as an institution, 0:13:20.596 --> 0:13:23.956 partly through his ability to be a populist and gain 0:13:24.316 --> 0:13:26.716 not the whole communities, but a substantial part of the 0:13:26.716 --> 0:13:30.436 community's support for his conduct, or whether he's weakened the 0:13:30.436 --> 0:13:33.916 presidency by especially the way he's leaving it, with the 0:13:33.956 --> 0:13:39.276 association with the attack of January six with the sore losrism, 0:13:39.316 --> 0:13:41.756 because I think a reasonable case could probably be made 0:13:41.756 --> 0:13:45.196 in either direction. And I really wonder how you think 0:13:45.236 --> 0:13:46.916 about it, And obviously we won't know for a long time, 0:13:46.916 --> 0:13:48.716 but it's an interesting question to ask in real time. 0:13:48.956 --> 0:13:52.436 It's a very interesting one, and I am of two 0:13:52.476 --> 0:13:55.996 minds on it. You know, I've always been a promoter 0:13:56.116 --> 0:13:59.996 of strong executive power because I write books like on 0:14:00.156 --> 0:14:05.036 Theodore Rooseville. So when tr said to himself, if Lincoln 0:14:05.076 --> 0:14:09.356 can use executive power to emancipate the slaves in the 0:14:09.396 --> 0:14:13.116 Civil War, I certainly can use the executive power in 0:14:13.116 --> 0:14:16.836 a vigorous way. And these incredible moments like when Theodore 0:14:16.876 --> 0:14:20.116 Roosevelt stands on the lip of the Grand Canyon and says, 0:14:20.196 --> 0:14:22.756 do not touch it. God has made it. You will 0:14:22.796 --> 0:14:27.196 only marit. Leave the Grand Canyon alone and send it. 0:14:27.276 --> 0:14:30.076 Wants to mine it for zinc, abstus and copper, and 0:14:30.276 --> 0:14:35.276 Roosevelt uses executive power to declare it as a national monument, 0:14:35.756 --> 0:14:39.196 which was really meant for sort of dinosaur bones or 0:14:39.276 --> 0:14:44.636 antiquities pottery, like a five acre sites. He declares six 0:14:44.756 --> 0:14:48.516 hundred thousand acres and today it's a million. So you 0:14:48.676 --> 0:14:52.076 share executive power. We wouldn't half the Grand Canyon without 0:14:52.156 --> 0:14:55.796 Theodore Roosevelt. And I can go through each president when 0:14:55.836 --> 0:15:00.276 they have moments of executive power that are usually quite admirable. 0:15:00.436 --> 0:15:04.236 I mean, Jimmy Carter are using executive power to pardon 0:15:04.796 --> 0:15:10.036 Vietnam veterans, so called draft dodgers, to try to heal 0:15:10.076 --> 0:15:13.116 the country, you know, as an executive power in a 0:15:13.276 --> 0:15:15.796 sense of a pardon. That probably was the correct thing 0:15:15.836 --> 0:15:20.956 to do. But I worry about executive power overreach. Like 0:15:21.076 --> 0:15:25.316 look how many executive much executive power Barack Obama used 0:15:25.316 --> 0:15:29.356 once plumbaxed after the Affordable Care Act, and then all 0:15:29.436 --> 0:15:34.116 we saw as Trump sent four years undoing the executive 0:15:34.516 --> 0:15:37.996 achievements of Obama. Now Biden is coming in. The first 0:15:37.996 --> 0:15:43.476 thing he's doing is undoing Trump's executive decrees. So we're 0:15:43.556 --> 0:15:45.436 kind of going to go back and forth to eat 0:15:45.516 --> 0:15:48.196 up a lot of clock. In that way. I have 0:15:48.356 --> 0:15:52.636 learned to appreciate Lyndon Johnson a little more. When Johnson 0:15:52.716 --> 0:15:55.756 had opportunities for executive power on a lot of things, 0:15:55.756 --> 0:15:58.796 he insisted to go through the Senate in Congress. But 0:15:58.876 --> 0:16:00.836 it's easy to say that I'm going to build a 0:16:00.916 --> 0:16:04.876 legislative record when you have an overwhelming percentage of the 0:16:04.996 --> 0:16:09.796 party with you. Biden's operating on a fifty fifty basis 0:16:09.796 --> 0:16:12.756 in the Senate, meaning it's just going to be really 0:16:12.796 --> 0:16:15.756 hard on any vote for him. But so, I really 0:16:15.756 --> 0:16:17.796 am not one of those people that have tried to 0:16:17.876 --> 0:16:22.316 reign in presidential power up until Trump, and now I 0:16:22.436 --> 0:16:29.276 see the real dangers of somebody who ignores or civic morays, 0:16:29.396 --> 0:16:33.636 our sense of decency, who treats the legislative branch as 0:16:34.196 --> 0:16:39.196 a whipping post, who abuses the judicial apartment. I think 0:16:39.276 --> 0:16:41.596 now maybe the time right we have to figure out 0:16:41.636 --> 0:16:46.276 how to curtail presidential power. For example, how do we 0:16:46.436 --> 0:16:52.636 curtail this pardon power that has gone crazy Now has 0:16:52.676 --> 0:16:56.996 nothing to do with justifying a judicial situation that had 0:16:57.036 --> 0:17:01.556 gone badly. It's now just pardoning cronies and would be 0:17:01.956 --> 0:17:06.076 personal friends that turned cons or criminals. And it's very 0:17:06.196 --> 0:17:09.516 unseemly to be doing that at the end. And so 0:17:09.636 --> 0:17:12.116 I think we might have to look at the twenty 0:17:12.116 --> 0:17:15.396 fifth Amendment ANEW. When people called for the twenty fifth 0:17:15.436 --> 0:17:17.516 Amendment to get rid of Trump, people said, well, it 0:17:17.556 --> 0:17:23.956 doesn't apply, not really doable. Well, why the reason I 0:17:24.036 --> 0:17:25.956 got when they said you can't use the twenty fifth. 0:17:25.956 --> 0:17:28.276 It wasn't meant for that. It was done after John F. 0:17:28.436 --> 0:17:33.556 Kennedy's death. And if it was just somebody was incapacitated, well, 0:17:33.996 --> 0:17:37.156 in nineteen sixty seven when we passed the twenty fifth Amendment, 0:17:37.236 --> 0:17:41.796 mental illness wasn't treated seriously. If you want to look 0:17:41.836 --> 0:17:44.876 at books about what it was like to be treated 0:17:44.876 --> 0:17:50.556 for mental illness in Georgia and Alabama, it is horrific. Now, 0:17:50.836 --> 0:17:54.556 I think we all agree that Trump has some sort 0:17:54.556 --> 0:18:00.036 of a narcissistic disorder malignant self love. We're all not 0:18:00.076 --> 0:18:04.116 supposed to say so because we're not psychiatrist. But I 0:18:04.156 --> 0:18:07.356 believe we had a very sick man operating in the 0:18:07.356 --> 0:18:10.716 White House for the past couple of years, and his 0:18:10.876 --> 0:18:15.396 behavior since the election warranted the twenty fifth Amendment to 0:18:15.436 --> 0:18:19.196 be put into action. I would think somebody having losing 0:18:19.236 --> 0:18:23.756 their sense of mind and inability to think rationally would 0:18:23.756 --> 0:18:26.516 be a reason to evoke the twenty fifth. I just 0:18:26.556 --> 0:18:29.036 want to push back gently on the twenty fifth Amendment. 0:18:29.076 --> 0:18:32.196 There and here, I think I'm wearing my constitutionalist hat. 0:18:32.796 --> 0:18:36.196 You know, the language of the amendment is unable to 0:18:36.396 --> 0:18:40.516 discharge the duties of the office, right. It doesn't say 0:18:40.556 --> 0:18:43.876 anything about diagnosis of mental disease or defect, which I 0:18:43.916 --> 0:18:47.836 agree it has evolved tremendously since then. But unable is 0:18:47.876 --> 0:18:51.996 as constitutional language goes pretty clear. And I don't think 0:18:52.076 --> 0:18:54.916 that Donald Trump was unable to discharge the duties of 0:18:54.956 --> 0:18:57.276 his office. He was unable to discharge them in a 0:18:57.276 --> 0:19:00.996 way that I found satisfactory or that was morally acceptable. 0:19:01.436 --> 0:19:05.356 So entirely apart from our attempts to make sense of 0:19:06.516 --> 0:19:08.836 his psychological state, which as you say, is a challenging 0:19:08.876 --> 0:19:11.276 thing to do from the outside, but you know, reasonable 0:19:11.356 --> 0:19:14.196 judgments could certainly be made. I don't think the twenty 0:19:14.196 --> 0:19:17.916 fifth Amendment says that if the president has a narcissistic 0:19:17.956 --> 0:19:22.076 personality disorder, that that authorizes the removal of that president. 0:19:22.116 --> 0:19:25.956 And I actually think that's a good thing, because presidents 0:19:26.156 --> 0:19:28.876 should be removed if they've committed high crimes and misdemeanors. 0:19:28.876 --> 0:19:31.196 In my view, this president did, and there were in 0:19:31.236 --> 0:19:33.116 fact two attempts to remove him, or one and a 0:19:33.156 --> 0:19:35.436 half if you count the last impeachment, which won't be 0:19:35.516 --> 0:19:37.796 tried if it is tried, until after he's out of office. 0:19:38.236 --> 0:19:41.676 But that's a political process that's kind of overt and 0:19:41.876 --> 0:19:45.036 the twenty fifth Amendment to the extent that the president resisted, 0:19:45.076 --> 0:19:48.036 it just sort of seems like a not as good 0:19:48.156 --> 0:19:51.476 version of impeachment. Right, you would still need two thirds 0:19:51.516 --> 0:19:53.236 of the House and two thirds of the Senate in 0:19:53.316 --> 0:19:56.956 order to remove a president who insisted that he was 0:19:57.196 --> 0:20:00.396 capable of discharging the duties of the office. So to me, 0:20:00.476 --> 0:20:02.556 I mean, I think that impeachment isn't doing what it 0:20:02.596 --> 0:20:06.196 should do because of some lack of virtue on the 0:20:06.276 --> 0:20:09.476 part of the Senate. But I wouldn't use the twenty 0:20:09.476 --> 0:20:11.996 fifth Amendment as a stopgap to replace it. So I 0:20:11.996 --> 0:20:14.996 wonder what that approach makes you think. I agree with 0:20:15.036 --> 0:20:17.276 what you said about the twenty fifth. I just think 0:20:17.316 --> 0:20:19.956 we were caught in a two week period here where 0:20:20.276 --> 0:20:25.396 what if Trump started ordering federal troops to put down 0:20:25.676 --> 0:20:31.836 protesters or use a nuclear weapon on Iran? What was 0:20:31.876 --> 0:20:35.236 their way to curtail him? These would have been highly 0:20:35.276 --> 0:20:38.956 irrational acts caused by his inability to admit that he 0:20:39.116 --> 0:20:43.436 lost due to his narcissistic disorder, and we would have 0:20:43.636 --> 0:20:46.516 no recourse because you wouldn't be able to get two 0:20:46.556 --> 0:20:48.596 thirds of the Senate, and you can't do it in 0:20:48.756 --> 0:20:52.516 time because there's only a couple of weeks left and 0:20:52.716 --> 0:20:56.236 twenty fifth doesn't allow for it. So what you're saying 0:20:56.356 --> 0:20:59.476 is you're just suck that last week or two. And 0:20:59.636 --> 0:21:01.716 I'm thinking that we need to find a way never 0:21:01.756 --> 0:21:05.156 to be held hostage by an American president in the 0:21:05.236 --> 0:21:08.476 last days of office, and we may need to think 0:21:08.836 --> 0:21:13.476 more seriously of what is mental disorders at least have 0:21:13.636 --> 0:21:18.476 a talk about what's new in science since nineteen sixty seven. 0:21:18.956 --> 0:21:21.796 You know, if you have somebody is truly a sociopath 0:21:21.916 --> 0:21:24.636 in the White House and the idea you can't remove 0:21:24.716 --> 0:21:29.476 them with the twenty fifth and your only recourses impeachment, Well, 0:21:29.476 --> 0:21:31.516 how do you do impeachment when you only have two 0:21:31.556 --> 0:21:36.556 weeks left when that sociopath starts acting out. What I'm 0:21:36.556 --> 0:21:39.876 most concerned is this limbo period we've been in right 0:21:39.916 --> 0:21:42.876 now where our country is sort of held hostage to 0:21:42.916 --> 0:21:47.196 his mental whims and fancies, and that to me was dangerous. Yeah, 0:21:47.236 --> 0:21:49.916 that's an important comment on just the nature of the 0:21:49.956 --> 0:21:52.876 tremendous power of the presidency, especially in the nuclear era, 0:21:53.476 --> 0:21:57.956 where the president can just do tremendous damage. And what 0:21:57.956 --> 0:21:59.756 you're saying, if I understand you correctly, is we don't 0:21:59.796 --> 0:22:02.916 really have a good mechanism constitutionally for how to fix that, 0:22:02.956 --> 0:22:04.516 and now we need to focus on that, and maybe 0:22:04.556 --> 0:22:06.996 we need to think about amending the twenty fifth or 0:22:07.076 --> 0:22:09.916 adding something that would enable us to act those circumstances 0:22:10.516 --> 0:22:15.516 that we might look into that We'll be right back. 0:22:25.076 --> 0:22:27.956 So let's turn out to this part in question. Nobody 0:22:28.116 --> 0:22:30.396 in the Guilder presidentialist Darian says thought more about this 0:22:30.436 --> 0:22:32.716 than you, because you thought about Ford and you thought 0:22:32.756 --> 0:22:36.236 about Carter. So you and you also edited extensively the 0:22:36.316 --> 0:22:39.716 Nixon tapes, so you've got a deep understanding of the 0:22:39.796 --> 0:22:43.756 run up to Watergate, it's aftermath, and then the reconciliation 0:22:43.836 --> 0:22:46.796 processes that did or didn't take place in the years 0:22:46.796 --> 0:22:49.036 that followed. And I guess I'm wondering if you would 0:22:49.036 --> 0:22:51.916 reflect on your deep knowledge of that period to think 0:22:51.916 --> 0:22:55.876 about what should Joe Biden do with respect to the 0:22:56.116 --> 0:22:59.356 hard question that he faces, which is, on the one hand, 0:22:59.396 --> 0:23:03.156 there's an argument for reconciliation and moving on, and on 0:23:03.196 --> 0:23:06.196 the other hand, there's an argument for historical accountability. And 0:23:06.276 --> 0:23:09.516 obviously the reconciliation prevailed in the middle set in these 0:23:09.876 --> 0:23:11.516 but there are lots of voices saying that this time 0:23:11.516 --> 0:23:14.476 accountability should prevail. Well, you're right, and you know there's 0:23:14.476 --> 0:23:17.796 a consensus, as you know, that Gerald Ford did the 0:23:17.916 --> 0:23:20.756 right thing with Nixon, and that was not the consensus 0:23:20.836 --> 0:23:24.436 at the time. Ford paid dearly for the partnering of 0:23:24.556 --> 0:23:26.996 Richard Nixon, and in fact it may have cost him 0:23:27.036 --> 0:23:31.036 the election in nineteen seventy six or certainly contributed to 0:23:31.076 --> 0:23:35.756 his loss. But later decades later, most people said Ford 0:23:35.756 --> 0:23:39.836 did the right thing. Ted Kennedy awarded Gerald Ford the 0:23:39.916 --> 0:23:44.516 Profiles and Courage Award, with Kennedy Senator Kennedy then saying 0:23:44.556 --> 0:23:46.676 I was wrong. I was so angry at you, but 0:23:46.756 --> 0:23:52.116 in retrospect, you were right. President Ford and Biden situation 0:23:52.276 --> 0:23:54.316 is going to be different. If I were giving advice 0:23:54.356 --> 0:23:57.876 to Joe Biden, I would let Nancy Pelosi work with 0:23:58.116 --> 0:24:02.356 Schumer on what's going to happen with impeachment. If I 0:24:02.436 --> 0:24:04.836 were by night stay out of it for one hundred days, 0:24:05.396 --> 0:24:08.396 I would try to craft one hundred days where impeachment 0:24:08.516 --> 0:24:13.476 doesn't infect the Biden administration, because I do believe he 0:24:13.636 --> 0:24:17.956 is inheriting such a difficult situation. With four hundred and 0:24:17.996 --> 0:24:22.716 fifty thousand COVID deaths number rising. I'm not convinced we 0:24:22.796 --> 0:24:27.956 have a logistical strategy for getting shots and arms two 0:24:27.956 --> 0:24:31.956 shots and arms across the country this spring. So I 0:24:31.996 --> 0:24:34.916 think he has one hundred days to work with Mitch McConnell, 0:24:35.396 --> 0:24:39.996 try to work with Republicans on a COVID nineteen economic 0:24:40.556 --> 0:24:44.836 stimulus relief bill, and a kind of martial plan on 0:24:44.876 --> 0:24:49.156 getting the COVID vaccines out. After that one hundred days, 0:24:49.196 --> 0:24:51.076