1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:24,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:24,396 --> 00:00:27,956 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:28,436 --> 00:00:32,196 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. This episode comes at the end of 4 00:00:32,196 --> 00:00:36,836 Speaker 1: one of the most tumultuous presidencies in US history, and 5 00:00:37,156 --> 00:00:40,836 Speaker 1: this episode is coming out on January twentieth, the day 6 00:00:40,876 --> 00:00:43,876 Speaker 1: Donald Trump will leave the White House and Joe Biden 7 00:00:43,996 --> 00:00:46,836 Speaker 1: will become the forty sixth President of the United States. 8 00:00:47,756 --> 00:00:50,476 Speaker 1: This episode also comes at the beginning of a new 9 00:00:50,596 --> 00:00:54,156 Speaker 1: season here on Deep Background. This year on the show 10 00:00:54,396 --> 00:00:58,316 Speaker 1: will be exploring the theme of power. Who has it, 11 00:00:58,836 --> 00:01:01,916 Speaker 1: how do they get it, who doesn't have it? And why? 12 00:01:02,236 --> 00:01:06,276 Speaker 1: How has power used? What is power in different realms? 13 00:01:06,996 --> 00:01:11,276 Speaker 1: And how does power shape events. Over the course of 14 00:01:11,276 --> 00:01:15,596 Speaker 1: the year, we'll be discussing many forms of power, well 15 00:01:15,676 --> 00:01:20,396 Speaker 1: beyond the strictly legal or political or constitution. To start 16 00:01:20,436 --> 00:01:23,516 Speaker 1: off this new season, given the January sixth attack on 17 00:01:23,636 --> 00:01:27,796 Speaker 1: Congress and Trump's second impeachment, We're going to talk today 18 00:01:28,116 --> 00:01:32,676 Speaker 1: about how power functions in the presence. To discuss this, 19 00:01:32,876 --> 00:01:36,436 Speaker 1: I'm joined by Professor Douglas Brinkley. He's a professor at 20 00:01:36,476 --> 00:01:40,036 Speaker 1: Rice University, the official US presidential historian of the new 21 00:01:40,076 --> 00:01:43,796 Speaker 1: York Historical Society, a contributor to CNN, and a best 22 00:01:43,836 --> 00:01:47,996 Speaker 1: selling author whose most recent book is American Moonshop. John F. 23 00:01:48,116 --> 00:01:51,756 Speaker 1: Kennedy and the Great Space Race. Doug, thank you so 24 00:01:51,836 --> 00:01:58,316 Speaker 1: much for being here today. Let's begin with the capital 25 00:01:58,396 --> 00:02:03,956 Speaker 1: storming on January sixth. There's no immediate precedent for an 26 00:02:03,956 --> 00:02:07,196 Speaker 1: event like this. My mind immediately went to the moment 27 00:02:07,276 --> 00:02:09,276 Speaker 1: in the War of eighteen twelve when the capital was 28 00:02:09,316 --> 00:02:12,996 Speaker 1: actually burned, but that was by a battle hardened force 29 00:02:13,196 --> 00:02:17,836 Speaker 1: of British regulars who swept away the state militias who 30 00:02:17,996 --> 00:02:20,476 Speaker 1: briefly tried to block them at Bladensburg, So it's a 31 00:02:20,476 --> 00:02:23,316 Speaker 1: pretty different scenario. What did it call to your mind 32 00:02:23,596 --> 00:02:26,516 Speaker 1: when you try to think about this bizarre event, an 33 00:02:26,556 --> 00:02:30,516 Speaker 1: upsetting event in historical context. Well, no, I immediately did 34 00:02:30,556 --> 00:02:33,556 Speaker 1: what you did. I pulled back and thought, gosh, what's 35 00:02:33,596 --> 00:02:35,716 Speaker 1: going on here? And I did think for a minute 36 00:02:35,716 --> 00:02:39,036 Speaker 1: about the War of eighteen twelve, and I did recall 37 00:02:39,196 --> 00:02:42,516 Speaker 1: when Washington was attacked during nine to eleven, and our 38 00:02:42,596 --> 00:02:46,116 Speaker 1: Pentagogue was hit, and the Capitol had been a target, 39 00:02:46,196 --> 00:02:49,796 Speaker 1: and I remember scares of anthrax and the like, with 40 00:02:49,836 --> 00:02:53,676 Speaker 1: some people running out of building but they were kind 41 00:02:53,716 --> 00:02:56,796 Speaker 1: of frivolous comparisons. I mean here, the fact of the 42 00:02:56,836 --> 00:03:01,716 Speaker 1: matter was a group of our fellows, citizens mob were 43 00:03:01,756 --> 00:03:06,276 Speaker 1: going in and destroying the US capital on a hunt 44 00:03:06,836 --> 00:03:09,276 Speaker 1: for the Speaker of the House and the Vice Press, 45 00:03:09,596 --> 00:03:14,436 Speaker 1: with ostensibly the order to hang them or do something 46 00:03:14,516 --> 00:03:19,156 Speaker 1: horrible to them. That was unprecedented, and that, to me 47 00:03:19,316 --> 00:03:22,636 Speaker 1: is a day that will live in infamy. January sixth 48 00:03:22,796 --> 00:03:26,276 Speaker 1: is not to be forgotten. Likely, just like we have 49 00:03:26,316 --> 00:03:29,716 Speaker 1: a nine to eleven museum in New York City, there 50 00:03:29,756 --> 00:03:32,796 Speaker 1: will be a museum by the capital to talk about 51 00:03:32,796 --> 00:03:37,276 Speaker 1: what happened in that day when the insurruction occurred, and 52 00:03:37,316 --> 00:03:40,436 Speaker 1: so I thought it to be an extremely frightening day 53 00:03:40,516 --> 00:03:44,076 Speaker 1: for our democracy. That's a fascinating idea of a museum 54 00:03:44,276 --> 00:03:47,236 Speaker 1: or an exhibit even in a museum, to commemorate those events. 55 00:03:47,236 --> 00:03:49,156 Speaker 1: And it leads me to a question that I've been 56 00:03:49,196 --> 00:03:51,236 Speaker 1: really puzzling over and I don't feel I have a 57 00:03:51,236 --> 00:03:54,396 Speaker 1: good answer to it, and that is, will we achieve 58 00:03:54,516 --> 00:03:58,676 Speaker 1: the kind of consensus on the meaning of those events 59 00:03:58,716 --> 00:04:02,116 Speaker 1: over time that is usually the precondition for some kind 60 00:04:02,156 --> 00:04:05,476 Speaker 1: of a public recognition in the form of a museum 61 00:04:05,676 --> 00:04:08,596 Speaker 1: or a monument, because there is an impulse now to say, well, look, 62 00:04:09,116 --> 00:04:11,516 Speaker 1: Donald Trump was the president, he spoke to this crowd 63 00:04:11,636 --> 00:04:15,836 Speaker 1: before they stormed the capitol. He's been impeached under an 64 00:04:15,876 --> 00:04:20,716 Speaker 1: article of impeachment that accused him of inciting insurrection. Those 65 00:04:20,756 --> 00:04:24,236 Speaker 1: are two major words, incitement and insurrection. They're both invoked there. 66 00:04:24,516 --> 00:04:27,396 Speaker 1: And all of that is of course partisan in some 67 00:04:27,516 --> 00:04:31,156 Speaker 1: powerful way. For us to get to a place where 68 00:04:31,196 --> 00:04:33,556 Speaker 1: we say, you know, let's memorialize this would probably would 69 00:04:33,556 --> 00:04:36,116 Speaker 1: be necessary to think of this as an outlying event 70 00:04:36,396 --> 00:04:39,836 Speaker 1: that wasn't closely associated with one of the two major 71 00:04:39,916 --> 00:04:43,476 Speaker 1: political parties. Oh, excellent point, and that's actually why I 72 00:04:43,636 --> 00:04:46,676 Speaker 1: mentioned it. I think that day will come, you know, 73 00:04:46,716 --> 00:04:48,956 Speaker 1: I think the country will unite that this was a 74 00:04:48,996 --> 00:04:53,196 Speaker 1: really rotten thing that occurred, the insurrection. But I don't 75 00:04:53,236 --> 00:04:56,676 Speaker 1: think it's a date that's easily forgotten to select. In 76 00:04:56,836 --> 00:05:01,796 Speaker 1: April twenty fifth, when the Oklahoma City was bombed. Well, 77 00:05:01,836 --> 00:05:04,916 Speaker 1: in Oklahoma City, they have a beautiful museum there. They 78 00:05:04,916 --> 00:05:07,996 Speaker 1: have the empty chairs of all the dead, and they 79 00:05:08,076 --> 00:05:12,356 Speaker 1: explain that event of Timothy McVeigh and right wing extremism 80 00:05:12,436 --> 00:05:17,636 Speaker 1: quite well. It's a marvelously curated museum. That's an Oklahoma. 81 00:05:17,836 --> 00:05:20,476 Speaker 1: This is in our nation's capital, where all the school 82 00:05:20,556 --> 00:05:24,036 Speaker 1: kids come, where everybody goes to visit to study democracy. 83 00:05:24,516 --> 00:05:26,956 Speaker 1: So this is going to be, I think, studied like 84 00:05:27,076 --> 00:05:31,116 Speaker 1: Ford's Theater where where Lincoln was killed, as an anti site, 85 00:05:31,116 --> 00:05:35,196 Speaker 1: a site where something went terribly wrong with our democracy. 86 00:05:35,996 --> 00:05:39,196 Speaker 1: Your comparison to the Oklahoma City bombing is really an 87 00:05:39,236 --> 00:05:41,476 Speaker 1: important one. I was lucky enough to have on the 88 00:05:41,516 --> 00:05:44,996 Speaker 1: program professor Kathleen Bellew from University of Chicago in the 89 00:05:45,036 --> 00:05:47,876 Speaker 1: history department there, who works on the white supremacy movement, 90 00:05:48,316 --> 00:05:51,916 Speaker 1: and she treats the McVeigh bombing in Oklahoma City as 91 00:05:51,916 --> 00:05:54,356 Speaker 1: a central event in the history of that movement. And 92 00:05:54,436 --> 00:05:58,596 Speaker 1: she's been saying recently that she sees the capital attack 93 00:05:58,716 --> 00:06:02,476 Speaker 1: as itself a manifestation of what is essentially the same movement. 94 00:06:02,796 --> 00:06:04,396 Speaker 1: And I think to the extent that we do come 95 00:06:04,436 --> 00:06:06,596 Speaker 1: to see it that way, you're going to be proven 96 00:06:06,676 --> 00:06:10,916 Speaker 1: right that we can peripheralize the events of that day. 97 00:06:11,076 --> 00:06:14,716 Speaker 1: The question that I have is what about the denial 98 00:06:15,116 --> 00:06:19,116 Speaker 1: of the legitimacy of the twenty twenty election results that 99 00:06:19,316 --> 00:06:23,396 Speaker 1: was closely associated with the attack. That goes way beyond 100 00:06:23,996 --> 00:06:27,156 Speaker 1: the people who attacked the Capitol Right now, these numbers 101 00:06:27,156 --> 00:06:29,396 Speaker 1: will change, but right now close to seventy percent of 102 00:06:29,436 --> 00:06:33,556 Speaker 1: Republicans are telling posters that they believe that the twenty 103 00:06:33,596 --> 00:06:37,276 Speaker 1: twenty election was illegitimate, and that too is going to 104 00:06:37,356 --> 00:06:40,396 Speaker 1: have to be assimilated into the historical record in some way. 105 00:06:40,396 --> 00:06:42,836 Speaker 1: In fact, that's a dispute about the very facts of 106 00:06:42,876 --> 00:06:45,436 Speaker 1: the historical record. You know, who won the election. How 107 00:06:45,476 --> 00:06:49,996 Speaker 1: do you anticipate that structure I would call it a 108 00:06:50,036 --> 00:06:53,556 Speaker 1: structure of denial will work itself out over time. Well, 109 00:06:53,556 --> 00:06:55,756 Speaker 1: it is a structure of denial, and that's a perfect 110 00:06:55,836 --> 00:06:59,396 Speaker 1: way to put it. Noah, I worry about it. I 111 00:06:59,516 --> 00:07:02,116 Speaker 1: have a feeling that there will be a lot of 112 00:07:02,156 --> 00:07:06,836 Speaker 1: those people that will admit that the January sixth insurrection was, 113 00:07:07,396 --> 00:07:10,276 Speaker 1: you know, shouldn't have happened. That it was a cantful 114 00:07:10,316 --> 00:07:15,196 Speaker 1: of real zealots that were responsible. It didn't represent the 115 00:07:15,196 --> 00:07:18,556 Speaker 1: Trump movement or the seventy million plus people that voted 116 00:07:18,636 --> 00:07:21,476 Speaker 1: for Trump. But when you had that high a number, 117 00:07:21,476 --> 00:07:25,716 Speaker 1: who thinks the election of twenty twenty was rigged? That 118 00:07:25,796 --> 00:07:29,916 Speaker 1: really is a reprogramming or re education process. I don't 119 00:07:29,956 --> 00:07:33,036 Speaker 1: know where to begin on that. All I can tell 120 00:07:33,116 --> 00:07:36,156 Speaker 1: you is that twenty twenty was a model of how 121 00:07:36,156 --> 00:07:40,036 Speaker 1: a free and fair election should be run. We ran 122 00:07:40,156 --> 00:07:43,796 Speaker 1: a great election in twenty twenty. And why it disturbs 123 00:07:43,876 --> 00:07:46,356 Speaker 1: me is I see that as one of our great exports. 124 00:07:46,916 --> 00:07:49,796 Speaker 1: The American brand is all about we know how to 125 00:07:49,876 --> 00:07:53,836 Speaker 1: do free and fair elections. It's why Jimmy Carter's ex 126 00:07:53,916 --> 00:07:57,516 Speaker 1: president could go to Nicaragua or go to Panama and 127 00:07:57,596 --> 00:08:00,396 Speaker 1: say I'm a former American president and I'll be judged 128 00:08:00,396 --> 00:08:03,116 Speaker 1: whether you did a free or fair one here. We've 129 00:08:03,636 --> 00:08:07,716 Speaker 1: made that our signature service for democracy in America. So 130 00:08:07,876 --> 00:08:10,436 Speaker 1: the challenge that we don't know how to count votes 131 00:08:11,196 --> 00:08:14,996 Speaker 1: is really a direct and central attack at the nervous 132 00:08:15,036 --> 00:08:20,236 Speaker 1: system of what makes our democratic body politique work. And 133 00:08:20,396 --> 00:08:24,316 Speaker 1: I hope more and more people will start dropping off 134 00:08:24,316 --> 00:08:30,556 Speaker 1: of that stance and recognizing they were hoodwinked by talk radio, internet, 135 00:08:30,676 --> 00:08:35,596 Speaker 1: post by hate sites, or just by a refusal to 136 00:08:35,636 --> 00:08:39,716 Speaker 1: accept that their team had lost that maybe over time 137 00:08:39,796 --> 00:08:42,756 Speaker 1: people will come to their senses, but there's always going 138 00:08:42,836 --> 00:08:46,396 Speaker 1: to be a twenty percent of the American public that 139 00:08:46,476 --> 00:08:51,036 Speaker 1: will always think that this was a fixed and rigged election. 140 00:08:51,116 --> 00:08:54,116 Speaker 1: And that's that twenty percent that Donald Trump will carry 141 00:08:54,436 --> 00:08:57,596 Speaker 1: around in his hip pocket even as ex president. Well, 142 00:08:57,596 --> 00:09:00,476 Speaker 1: speaking of Trump and carrying that twenty percent around and 143 00:09:00,596 --> 00:09:05,156 Speaker 1: its structure of denial. Trump's decision that he will not 144 00:09:05,236 --> 00:09:09,956 Speaker 1: attend the inauguration, I think, really underscores that he's trying 145 00:09:09,996 --> 00:09:13,476 Speaker 1: to say, not just I don't like Joe Biden, but 146 00:09:13,596 --> 00:09:16,716 Speaker 1: I don't think Joe Biden is genuinely the president of 147 00:09:16,756 --> 00:09:19,356 Speaker 1: the United States. I was trying to explain to my 148 00:09:19,436 --> 00:09:21,596 Speaker 1: kids why I thought it was such a big deal 149 00:09:21,636 --> 00:09:24,916 Speaker 1: for the president not to attend an inauguration, And I 150 00:09:24,916 --> 00:09:27,436 Speaker 1: tried to explain it hadn't happened since Andrew Johnson and 151 00:09:27,756 --> 00:09:30,236 Speaker 1: that it was a central symbol of transition. And they 152 00:09:30,276 --> 00:09:33,476 Speaker 1: looked at me. You know, they're fourteen and fifteen. They 153 00:09:33,476 --> 00:09:35,636 Speaker 1: look at me blankly a lot as if you know, Dad, 154 00:09:35,636 --> 00:09:37,036 Speaker 1: we don't know what you're talking about. And they just 155 00:09:37,036 --> 00:09:39,516 Speaker 1: said to me, Dad, why would you ever have expected 156 00:09:39,556 --> 00:09:43,476 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, under any circumstances to attend the inauguration of 157 00:09:43,516 --> 00:09:45,876 Speaker 1: his success Right? That was a fair point that they made. 158 00:09:46,356 --> 00:09:48,876 Speaker 1: How do you think about that decision? Is it something 159 00:09:48,876 --> 00:09:51,876 Speaker 1: that will ultimately contribute to the delegitimation of the transition? 160 00:09:52,676 --> 00:09:55,556 Speaker 1: You know, I have a fourteen, fifteen, and sixteen year old. 161 00:09:55,636 --> 00:09:58,396 Speaker 1: I have three in high school right now, and they 162 00:09:58,396 --> 00:10:01,116 Speaker 1: would all say the exact same thing to me. They're 163 00:10:01,196 --> 00:10:03,276 Speaker 1: kind of on to the fact growing up. I think 164 00:10:03,276 --> 00:10:05,516 Speaker 1: in the age of Trump that you're never going to 165 00:10:05,596 --> 00:10:09,476 Speaker 1: have a sense of reconciliation. They grew up with neo 166 00:10:09,596 --> 00:10:13,276 Speaker 1: Civil War and they haven't experienced a healing moment that 167 00:10:13,676 --> 00:10:18,996 Speaker 1: we keep talking about. It's a tragedy at least. I 168 00:10:19,076 --> 00:10:21,596 Speaker 1: first thought it was that Trump wasn't coming to the 169 00:10:21,636 --> 00:10:25,436 Speaker 1: Biden inauguration because if he would have shook Biden's hand, 170 00:10:25,476 --> 00:10:29,716 Speaker 1: it would have symbolically been omitted as difficult as it 171 00:10:29,796 --> 00:10:33,996 Speaker 1: was for him that Biden and won. But after January sixth, 172 00:10:34,036 --> 00:10:37,476 Speaker 1: I say good riddance. I think Trump at the inaugural 173 00:10:37,556 --> 00:10:41,836 Speaker 1: would have been a distraction by not very forgiving of 174 00:10:41,956 --> 00:10:45,116 Speaker 1: Trump for January sixth, when you have five people that 175 00:10:45,196 --> 00:10:48,156 Speaker 1: are killed, and that you run a reign of terror 176 00:10:48,156 --> 00:10:53,196 Speaker 1: through our capital against our representatives and people having to 177 00:10:53,676 --> 00:10:58,556 Speaker 1: either catch COVID, have terror trauma, nightmare attacks, hiding in 178 00:10:59,036 --> 00:11:03,396 Speaker 1: closets and corners. You know. So I've been asked a lot, 179 00:11:03,596 --> 00:11:06,436 Speaker 1: as you can imagine. Noah from the press to talk 180 00:11:06,476 --> 00:11:09,836 Speaker 1: about why did John Adams not show? While for John 181 00:11:09,916 --> 00:11:13,716 Speaker 1: Quincy Adams or Andrew Johnson, the fact of the matter 182 00:11:13,916 --> 00:11:17,836 Speaker 1: was after the Civil War, when Andrew Johnson refused to 183 00:11:18,436 --> 00:11:22,156 Speaker 1: go to Grant's inaugural, He spent the inaugural in the 184 00:11:22,196 --> 00:11:26,956 Speaker 1: White House, claiming he was doing paperwork, desk work, and 185 00:11:27,036 --> 00:11:29,876 Speaker 1: so he was in Washington. He just refused to go. 186 00:11:30,516 --> 00:11:33,236 Speaker 1: It stuck a bone in the throat of the nation, 187 00:11:33,716 --> 00:11:37,116 Speaker 1: and we decided really collectively after that to make sure 188 00:11:37,196 --> 00:11:40,556 Speaker 1: that the president's there for the transition. I found that 189 00:11:40,876 --> 00:11:43,836 Speaker 1: moment of the transition sort of the crown jewel of 190 00:11:43,836 --> 00:11:49,956 Speaker 1: our democratic process. It's the coronation, which legitimizes all of 191 00:11:49,996 --> 00:11:54,596 Speaker 1: the mud slinging and debating and belittling and all the 192 00:11:54,756 --> 00:11:58,276 Speaker 1: ugly side of American politics. He suddenly get the reward 193 00:11:58,836 --> 00:12:03,316 Speaker 1: of the great hug, the great moment of friendship that 194 00:12:03,396 --> 00:12:06,876 Speaker 1: emerges out of two adversaries. We see this in every 195 00:12:06,956 --> 00:12:10,036 Speaker 1: sports game, right A team loses and then the coaches 196 00:12:10,116 --> 00:12:13,356 Speaker 1: go hug each other, players talk to each other. We 197 00:12:13,556 --> 00:12:17,516 Speaker 1: teach our young people to be good losers as well 198 00:12:17,556 --> 00:12:22,156 Speaker 1: as winners. But Trump's refusal just sets him apart as 199 00:12:22,196 --> 00:12:26,516 Speaker 1: a very small man, as somebody who's not well liked, 200 00:12:26,676 --> 00:12:31,036 Speaker 1: doesn't really have any personal friends, a loner in his 201 00:12:31,116 --> 00:12:35,636 Speaker 1: own way. And you probably not being on the inaugural 202 00:12:35,716 --> 00:12:38,316 Speaker 1: stage was a good thing at the end, because I 203 00:12:38,356 --> 00:12:40,916 Speaker 1: would have been looking for the blood on his hands 204 00:12:40,956 --> 00:12:43,796 Speaker 1: if he was standing there, I would have been feeling, 205 00:12:43,876 --> 00:12:47,396 Speaker 1: how dare you have the gall to even be here today? 206 00:12:47,876 --> 00:12:52,916 Speaker 1: I got that angry at Trump over January sixth, Doug. 207 00:12:53,236 --> 00:12:55,076 Speaker 1: One of the themes that I'm going to try to 208 00:12:55,116 --> 00:12:59,556 Speaker 1: explore in this new year is power and how it's created, 209 00:13:00,236 --> 00:13:04,236 Speaker 1: and how it weakens and how it grows. And I'm 210 00:13:04,276 --> 00:13:08,116 Speaker 1: wondering whether you think when you wear your historian of 211 00:13:08,156 --> 00:13:10,876 Speaker 1: the presidency had not just a starting of particular presidents, 212 00:13:10,916 --> 00:13:14,676 Speaker 1: but of the presidency as an institution. Whether Trump is 213 00:13:14,716 --> 00:13:19,836 Speaker 1: emerging from his presidency having strengthened the presidency as an institution, 214 00:13:20,596 --> 00:13:23,956 Speaker 1: partly through his ability to be a populist and gain 215 00:13:24,316 --> 00:13:26,716 Speaker 1: not the whole communities, but a substantial part of the 216 00:13:26,716 --> 00:13:30,436 Speaker 1: community's support for his conduct, or whether he's weakened the 217 00:13:30,436 --> 00:13:33,916 Speaker 1: presidency by especially the way he's leaving it, with the 218 00:13:33,956 --> 00:13:39,276 Speaker 1: association with the attack of January six with the sore losrism, 219 00:13:39,316 --> 00:13:41,756 Speaker 1: because I think a reasonable case could probably be made 220 00:13:41,756 --> 00:13:45,196 Speaker 1: in either direction. And I really wonder how you think 221 00:13:45,236 --> 00:13:46,916 Speaker 1: about it, And obviously we won't know for a long time, 222 00:13:46,916 --> 00:13:48,716 Speaker 1: but it's an interesting question to ask in real time. 223 00:13:48,956 --> 00:13:52,436 Speaker 1: It's a very interesting one, and I am of two 224 00:13:52,476 --> 00:13:55,996 Speaker 1: minds on it. You know, I've always been a promoter 225 00:13:56,116 --> 00:13:59,996 Speaker 1: of strong executive power because I write books like on 226 00:14:00,156 --> 00:14:05,036 Speaker 1: Theodore Rooseville. So when tr said to himself, if Lincoln 227 00:14:05,076 --> 00:14:09,356 Speaker 1: can use executive power to emancipate the slaves in the 228 00:14:09,396 --> 00:14:13,116 Speaker 1: Civil War, I certainly can use the executive power in 229 00:14:13,116 --> 00:14:16,836 Speaker 1: a vigorous way. And these incredible moments like when Theodore 230 00:14:16,876 --> 00:14:20,116 Speaker 1: Roosevelt stands on the lip of the Grand Canyon and says, 231 00:14:20,196 --> 00:14:22,756 Speaker 1: do not touch it. God has made it. You will 232 00:14:22,796 --> 00:14:27,196 Speaker 1: only marit. Leave the Grand Canyon alone and send it. 233 00:14:27,276 --> 00:14:30,076 Speaker 1: Wants to mine it for zinc, abstus and copper, and 234 00:14:30,276 --> 00:14:35,276 Speaker 1: Roosevelt uses executive power to declare it as a national monument, 235 00:14:35,756 --> 00:14:39,196 Speaker 1: which was really meant for sort of dinosaur bones or 236 00:14:39,276 --> 00:14:44,636 Speaker 1: antiquities pottery, like a five acre sites. He declares six 237 00:14:44,756 --> 00:14:48,516 Speaker 1: hundred thousand acres and today it's a million. So you 238 00:14:48,676 --> 00:14:52,076 Speaker 1: share executive power. We wouldn't half the Grand Canyon without 239 00:14:52,156 --> 00:14:55,796 Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt. And I can go through each president when 240 00:14:55,836 --> 00:15:00,276 Speaker 1: they have moments of executive power that are usually quite admirable. 241 00:15:00,436 --> 00:15:04,236 Speaker 1: I mean, Jimmy Carter are using executive power to pardon 242 00:15:04,796 --> 00:15:10,036 Speaker 1: Vietnam veterans, so called draft dodgers, to try to heal 243 00:15:10,076 --> 00:15:13,116 Speaker 1: the country, you know, as an executive power in a 244 00:15:13,276 --> 00:15:15,796 Speaker 1: sense of a pardon. That probably was the correct thing 245 00:15:15,836 --> 00:15:20,956 Speaker 1: to do. But I worry about executive power overreach. Like 246 00:15:21,076 --> 00:15:25,316 Speaker 1: look how many executive much executive power Barack Obama used 247 00:15:25,316 --> 00:15:29,356 Speaker 1: once plumbaxed after the Affordable Care Act, and then all 248 00:15:29,436 --> 00:15:34,116 Speaker 1: we saw as Trump sent four years undoing the executive 249 00:15:34,516 --> 00:15:37,996 Speaker 1: achievements of Obama. Now Biden is coming in. The first 250 00:15:37,996 --> 00:15:43,476 Speaker 1: thing he's doing is undoing Trump's executive decrees. So we're 251 00:15:43,556 --> 00:15:45,436 Speaker 1: kind of going to go back and forth to eat 252 00:15:45,516 --> 00:15:48,196 Speaker 1: up a lot of clock. In that way. I have 253 00:15:48,356 --> 00:15:52,636 Speaker 1: learned to appreciate Lyndon Johnson a little more. When Johnson 254 00:15:52,716 --> 00:15:55,756 Speaker 1: had opportunities for executive power on a lot of things, 255 00:15:55,756 --> 00:15:58,796 Speaker 1: he insisted to go through the Senate in Congress. But 256 00:15:58,876 --> 00:16:00,836 Speaker 1: it's easy to say that I'm going to build a 257 00:16:00,916 --> 00:16:04,876 Speaker 1: legislative record when you have an overwhelming percentage of the 258 00:16:04,996 --> 00:16:09,796 Speaker 1: party with you. Biden's operating on a fifty fifty basis 259 00:16:09,796 --> 00:16:12,756 Speaker 1: in the Senate, meaning it's just going to be really 260 00:16:12,796 --> 00:16:15,756 Speaker 1: hard on any vote for him. But so, I really 261 00:16:15,756 --> 00:16:17,796 Speaker 1: am not one of those people that have tried to 262 00:16:17,876 --> 00:16:22,316 Speaker 1: reign in presidential power up until Trump, and now I 263 00:16:22,436 --> 00:16:29,276 Speaker 1: see the real dangers of somebody who ignores or civic morays, 264 00:16:29,396 --> 00:16:33,636 Speaker 1: our sense of decency, who treats the legislative branch as 265 00:16:34,196 --> 00:16:39,196 Speaker 1: a whipping post, who abuses the judicial apartment. I think 266 00:16:39,276 --> 00:16:41,596 Speaker 1: now maybe the time right we have to figure out 267 00:16:41,636 --> 00:16:46,276 Speaker 1: how to curtail presidential power. For example, how do we 268 00:16:46,436 --> 00:16:52,636 Speaker 1: curtail this pardon power that has gone crazy Now has 269 00:16:52,676 --> 00:16:56,996 Speaker 1: nothing to do with justifying a judicial situation that had 270 00:16:57,036 --> 00:17:01,556 Speaker 1: gone badly. It's now just pardoning cronies and would be 271 00:17:01,956 --> 00:17:06,076 Speaker 1: personal friends that turned cons or criminals. And it's very 272 00:17:06,196 --> 00:17:09,516 Speaker 1: unseemly to be doing that at the end. And so 273 00:17:09,636 --> 00:17:12,116 Speaker 1: I think we might have to look at the twenty 274 00:17:12,116 --> 00:17:15,396 Speaker 1: fifth Amendment ANEW. When people called for the twenty fifth 275 00:17:15,436 --> 00:17:17,516 Speaker 1: Amendment to get rid of Trump, people said, well, it 276 00:17:17,556 --> 00:17:23,956 Speaker 1: doesn't apply, not really doable. Well, why the reason I 277 00:17:24,036 --> 00:17:25,956 Speaker 1: got when they said you can't use the twenty fifth. 278 00:17:25,956 --> 00:17:28,276 Speaker 1: It wasn't meant for that. It was done after John F. 279 00:17:28,436 --> 00:17:33,556 Speaker 1: Kennedy's death. And if it was just somebody was incapacitated, well, 280 00:17:33,996 --> 00:17:37,156 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty seven when we passed the twenty fifth Amendment, 281 00:17:37,236 --> 00:17:41,796 Speaker 1: mental illness wasn't treated seriously. If you want to look 282 00:17:41,836 --> 00:17:44,876 Speaker 1: at books about what it was like to be treated 283 00:17:44,876 --> 00:17:50,556 Speaker 1: for mental illness in Georgia and Alabama, it is horrific. Now, 284 00:17:50,836 --> 00:17:54,556 Speaker 1: I think we all agree that Trump has some sort 285 00:17:54,556 --> 00:18:00,036 Speaker 1: of a narcissistic disorder malignant self love. We're all not 286 00:18:00,076 --> 00:18:04,116 Speaker 1: supposed to say so because we're not psychiatrist. But I 287 00:18:04,156 --> 00:18:07,356 Speaker 1: believe we had a very sick man operating in the 288 00:18:07,356 --> 00:18:10,716 Speaker 1: White House for the past couple of years, and his 289 00:18:10,876 --> 00:18:15,396 Speaker 1: behavior since the election warranted the twenty fifth Amendment to 290 00:18:15,436 --> 00:18:19,196 Speaker 1: be put into action. I would think somebody having losing 291 00:18:19,236 --> 00:18:23,756 Speaker 1: their sense of mind and inability to think rationally would 292 00:18:23,756 --> 00:18:26,516 Speaker 1: be a reason to evoke the twenty fifth. I just 293 00:18:26,556 --> 00:18:29,036 Speaker 1: want to push back gently on the twenty fifth Amendment. 294 00:18:29,076 --> 00:18:32,196 Speaker 1: There and here, I think I'm wearing my constitutionalist hat. 295 00:18:32,796 --> 00:18:36,196 Speaker 1: You know, the language of the amendment is unable to 296 00:18:36,396 --> 00:18:40,516 Speaker 1: discharge the duties of the office, right. It doesn't say 297 00:18:40,556 --> 00:18:43,876 Speaker 1: anything about diagnosis of mental disease or defect, which I 298 00:18:43,916 --> 00:18:47,836 Speaker 1: agree it has evolved tremendously since then. But unable is 299 00:18:47,876 --> 00:18:51,996 Speaker 1: as constitutional language goes pretty clear. And I don't think 300 00:18:52,076 --> 00:18:54,916 Speaker 1: that Donald Trump was unable to discharge the duties of 301 00:18:54,956 --> 00:18:57,276 Speaker 1: his office. He was unable to discharge them in a 302 00:18:57,276 --> 00:19:00,996 Speaker 1: way that I found satisfactory or that was morally acceptable. 303 00:19:01,436 --> 00:19:05,356 Speaker 1: So entirely apart from our attempts to make sense of 304 00:19:06,516 --> 00:19:08,836 Speaker 1: his psychological state, which as you say, is a challenging 305 00:19:08,876 --> 00:19:11,276 Speaker 1: thing to do from the outside, but you know, reasonable 306 00:19:11,356 --> 00:19:14,196 Speaker 1: judgments could certainly be made. I don't think the twenty 307 00:19:14,196 --> 00:19:17,916 Speaker 1: fifth Amendment says that if the president has a narcissistic 308 00:19:17,956 --> 00:19:22,076 Speaker 1: personality disorder, that that authorizes the removal of that president. 309 00:19:22,116 --> 00:19:25,956 Speaker 1: And I actually think that's a good thing, because presidents 310 00:19:26,156 --> 00:19:28,876 Speaker 1: should be removed if they've committed high crimes and misdemeanors. 311 00:19:28,876 --> 00:19:31,196 Speaker 1: In my view, this president did, and there were in 312 00:19:31,236 --> 00:19:33,116 Speaker 1: fact two attempts to remove him, or one and a 313 00:19:33,156 --> 00:19:35,436 Speaker 1: half if you count the last impeachment, which won't be 314 00:19:35,516 --> 00:19:37,796 Speaker 1: tried if it is tried, until after he's out of office. 315 00:19:38,236 --> 00:19:41,676 Speaker 1: But that's a political process that's kind of overt and 316 00:19:41,876 --> 00:19:45,036 Speaker 1: the twenty fifth Amendment to the extent that the president resisted, 317 00:19:45,076 --> 00:19:48,036 Speaker 1: it just sort of seems like a not as good 318 00:19:48,156 --> 00:19:51,476 Speaker 1: version of impeachment. Right, you would still need two thirds 319 00:19:51,516 --> 00:19:53,236 Speaker 1: of the House and two thirds of the Senate in 320 00:19:53,316 --> 00:19:56,956 Speaker 1: order to remove a president who insisted that he was 321 00:19:57,196 --> 00:20:00,396 Speaker 1: capable of discharging the duties of the office. So to me, 322 00:20:00,476 --> 00:20:02,556 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that impeachment isn't doing what it 323 00:20:02,596 --> 00:20:06,196 Speaker 1: should do because of some lack of virtue on the 324 00:20:06,276 --> 00:20:09,476 Speaker 1: part of the Senate. But I wouldn't use the twenty 325 00:20:09,476 --> 00:20:11,996 Speaker 1: fifth Amendment as a stopgap to replace it. So I 326 00:20:11,996 --> 00:20:14,996 Speaker 1: wonder what that approach makes you think. I agree with 327 00:20:15,036 --> 00:20:17,276 Speaker 1: what you said about the twenty fifth. I just think 328 00:20:17,316 --> 00:20:19,956 Speaker 1: we were caught in a two week period here where 329 00:20:20,276 --> 00:20:25,396 Speaker 1: what if Trump started ordering federal troops to put down 330 00:20:25,676 --> 00:20:31,836 Speaker 1: protesters or use a nuclear weapon on Iran? What was 331 00:20:31,876 --> 00:20:35,236 Speaker 1: their way to curtail him? These would have been highly 332 00:20:35,276 --> 00:20:38,956 Speaker 1: irrational acts caused by his inability to admit that he 333 00:20:39,116 --> 00:20:43,436 Speaker 1: lost due to his narcissistic disorder, and we would have 334 00:20:43,636 --> 00:20:46,516 Speaker 1: no recourse because you wouldn't be able to get two 335 00:20:46,556 --> 00:20:48,596 Speaker 1: thirds of the Senate, and you can't do it in 336 00:20:48,756 --> 00:20:52,516 Speaker 1: time because there's only a couple of weeks left and 337 00:20:52,716 --> 00:20:56,236 Speaker 1: twenty fifth doesn't allow for it. So what you're saying 338 00:20:56,356 --> 00:20:59,476 Speaker 1: is you're just suck that last week or two. And 339 00:20:59,636 --> 00:21:01,716 Speaker 1: I'm thinking that we need to find a way never 340 00:21:01,756 --> 00:21:05,156 Speaker 1: to be held hostage by an American president in the 341 00:21:05,236 --> 00:21:08,476 Speaker 1: last days of office, and we may need to think 342 00:21:08,836 --> 00:21:13,476 Speaker 1: more seriously of what is mental disorders at least have 343 00:21:13,636 --> 00:21:18,476 Speaker 1: a talk about what's new in science since nineteen sixty seven. 344 00:21:18,956 --> 00:21:21,796 Speaker 1: You know, if you have somebody is truly a sociopath 345 00:21:21,916 --> 00:21:24,636 Speaker 1: in the White House and the idea you can't remove 346 00:21:24,716 --> 00:21:29,476 Speaker 1: them with the twenty fifth and your only recourses impeachment, Well, 347 00:21:29,476 --> 00:21:31,516 Speaker 1: how do you do impeachment when you only have two 348 00:21:31,556 --> 00:21:36,556 Speaker 1: weeks left when that sociopath starts acting out. What I'm 349 00:21:36,556 --> 00:21:39,876 Speaker 1: most concerned is this limbo period we've been in right 350 00:21:39,916 --> 00:21:42,876 Speaker 1: now where our country is sort of held hostage to 351 00:21:42,916 --> 00:21:47,196 Speaker 1: his mental whims and fancies, and that to me was dangerous. Yeah, 352 00:21:47,236 --> 00:21:49,916 Speaker 1: that's an important comment on just the nature of the 353 00:21:49,956 --> 00:21:52,876 Speaker 1: tremendous power of the presidency, especially in the nuclear era, 354 00:21:53,476 --> 00:21:57,956 Speaker 1: where the president can just do tremendous damage. And what 355 00:21:57,956 --> 00:21:59,756 Speaker 1: you're saying, if I understand you correctly, is we don't 356 00:21:59,796 --> 00:22:02,916 Speaker 1: really have a good mechanism constitutionally for how to fix that, 357 00:22:02,956 --> 00:22:04,516 Speaker 1: and now we need to focus on that, and maybe 358 00:22:04,556 --> 00:22:06,996 Speaker 1: we need to think about amending the twenty fifth or 359 00:22:07,076 --> 00:22:09,916 Speaker 1: adding something that would enable us to act those circumstances 360 00:22:10,516 --> 00:22:15,516 Speaker 1: that we might look into that We'll be right back. 361 00:22:25,076 --> 00:22:27,956 Speaker 1: So let's turn out to this part in question. Nobody 362 00:22:28,116 --> 00:22:30,396 Speaker 1: in the Guilder presidentialist Darian says thought more about this 363 00:22:30,436 --> 00:22:32,716 Speaker 1: than you, because you thought about Ford and you thought 364 00:22:32,756 --> 00:22:36,236 Speaker 1: about Carter. So you and you also edited extensively the 365 00:22:36,316 --> 00:22:39,716 Speaker 1: Nixon tapes, so you've got a deep understanding of the 366 00:22:39,796 --> 00:22:43,756 Speaker 1: run up to Watergate, it's aftermath, and then the reconciliation 367 00:22:43,836 --> 00:22:46,796 Speaker 1: processes that did or didn't take place in the years 368 00:22:46,796 --> 00:22:49,036 Speaker 1: that followed. And I guess I'm wondering if you would 369 00:22:49,036 --> 00:22:51,916 Speaker 1: reflect on your deep knowledge of that period to think 370 00:22:51,916 --> 00:22:55,876 Speaker 1: about what should Joe Biden do with respect to the 371 00:22:56,116 --> 00:22:59,356 Speaker 1: hard question that he faces, which is, on the one hand, 372 00:22:59,396 --> 00:23:03,156 Speaker 1: there's an argument for reconciliation and moving on, and on 373 00:23:03,196 --> 00:23:06,196 Speaker 1: the other hand, there's an argument for historical accountability. And 374 00:23:06,276 --> 00:23:09,516 Speaker 1: obviously the reconciliation prevailed in the middle set in these 375 00:23:09,876 --> 00:23:11,516 Speaker 1: but there are lots of voices saying that this time 376 00:23:11,516 --> 00:23:14,476 Speaker 1: accountability should prevail. Well, you're right, and you know there's 377 00:23:14,476 --> 00:23:17,796 Speaker 1: a consensus, as you know, that Gerald Ford did the 378 00:23:17,916 --> 00:23:20,756 Speaker 1: right thing with Nixon, and that was not the consensus 379 00:23:20,836 --> 00:23:24,436 Speaker 1: at the time. Ford paid dearly for the partnering of 380 00:23:24,556 --> 00:23:26,996 Speaker 1: Richard Nixon, and in fact it may have cost him 381 00:23:27,036 --> 00:23:31,036 Speaker 1: the election in nineteen seventy six or certainly contributed to 382 00:23:31,076 --> 00:23:35,756 Speaker 1: his loss. But later decades later, most people said Ford 383 00:23:35,756 --> 00:23:39,836 Speaker 1: did the right thing. Ted Kennedy awarded Gerald Ford the 384 00:23:39,916 --> 00:23:44,516 Speaker 1: Profiles and Courage Award, with Kennedy Senator Kennedy then saying 385 00:23:44,556 --> 00:23:46,676 Speaker 1: I was wrong. I was so angry at you, but 386 00:23:46,756 --> 00:23:52,116 Speaker 1: in retrospect, you were right. President Ford and Biden situation 387 00:23:52,276 --> 00:23:54,316 Speaker 1: is going to be different. If I were giving advice 388 00:23:54,356 --> 00:23:57,876 Speaker 1: to Joe Biden, I would let Nancy Pelosi work with 389 00:23:58,116 --> 00:24:02,356 Speaker 1: Schumer on what's going to happen with impeachment. If I 390 00:24:02,436 --> 00:24:04,836 Speaker 1: were by night stay out of it for one hundred days, 391 00:24:05,396 --> 00:24:08,396 Speaker 1: I would try to craft one hundred days where impeachment 392 00:24:08,516 --> 00:24:13,476 Speaker 1: doesn't infect the Biden administration, because I do believe he 393 00:24:13,636 --> 00:24:17,956 Speaker 1: is inheriting such a difficult situation. With four hundred and 394 00:24:17,996 --> 00:24:22,716 Speaker 1: fifty thousand COVID deaths number rising. I'm not convinced we 395 00:24:22,796 --> 00:24:27,956 Speaker 1: have a logistical strategy for getting shots and arms two 396 00:24:27,956 --> 00:24:31,956 Speaker 1: shots and arms across the country this spring. So I 397 00:24:31,996 --> 00:24:34,916 Speaker 1: think he has one hundred days to work with Mitch McConnell, 398 00:24:35,396 --> 00:24:39,996 Speaker 1: try to work with Republicans on a COVID nineteen economic 399 00:24:40,556 --> 00:24:44,836 Speaker 1: stimulus relief bill, and a kind of martial plan on 400 00:24:44,876 --> 00:24:49,156 Speaker 1: getting the COVID vaccines out. After that one hundred days, 401 00:24:49,196 --> 00:24:51,076 Speaker 1: I would hope that we might be able to have 402 00:24:51,156 --> 00:24:57,396 Speaker 1: a Congressional Commission report presented to President Biden, which will 403 00:24:57,436 --> 00:25:00,676 Speaker 1: have gaps in it, obviously, but might be able to 404 00:25:00,716 --> 00:25:04,916 Speaker 1: point out how culpable is Trump for what happened on 405 00:25:05,076 --> 00:25:08,636 Speaker 1: January sixth, And I think Buying at that point's going 406 00:25:08,676 --> 00:25:12,756 Speaker 1: to have to decide whether the evidence is so egregious 407 00:25:12,956 --> 00:25:16,756 Speaker 1: that he has to let Schumer move forward in the Senate, 408 00:25:17,076 --> 00:25:19,916 Speaker 1: or if not, Biden may need to try to now 409 00:25:20,036 --> 00:25:24,036 Speaker 1: get control over his own Democratic Party and say, let's 410 00:25:24,156 --> 00:25:27,676 Speaker 1: cool our jets. What if we do a Senate censor. 411 00:25:28,236 --> 00:25:30,916 Speaker 1: What if we write a you know, I write a 412 00:25:31,036 --> 00:25:34,396 Speaker 1: presidential report, you know, and we do a media outreach 413 00:25:34,436 --> 00:25:37,236 Speaker 1: saying how guilty Trump was. But I'm not going to 414 00:25:37,316 --> 00:25:40,756 Speaker 1: take him through the trial. So I'm indifferent on the 415 00:25:40,796 --> 00:25:43,596 Speaker 1: trial now. I would want to see more evidence because 416 00:25:43,636 --> 00:25:46,716 Speaker 1: I do think it would cripple Biden if he goes 417 00:25:46,796 --> 00:25:50,316 Speaker 1: too soon in a Senate trial, and again it might 418 00:25:50,356 --> 00:25:55,716 Speaker 1: tear our country to smithereens. But without question, I would 419 00:25:55,836 --> 00:25:58,076 Speaker 1: not touch that trial for one hundred days if you 420 00:25:58,116 --> 00:26:00,316 Speaker 1: can boot it down the line for a little bit, 421 00:26:00,636 --> 00:26:05,516 Speaker 1: let emotions settle and start looking at the empirical facts 422 00:26:05,556 --> 00:26:07,636 Speaker 1: of what occurred. In a sense, it sounds like you're 423 00:26:07,676 --> 00:26:11,236 Speaker 1: saying that moving too quickly to a trial would sort 424 00:26:11,236 --> 00:26:15,916 Speaker 1: of drain power out of the Biden presidency, and especially 425 00:26:15,956 --> 00:26:18,556 Speaker 1: if Trump, as seems to me very likely, were to 426 00:26:18,556 --> 00:26:22,916 Speaker 1: be acquitted by the Senate, that actually may reinvigorate Trump's 427 00:26:22,956 --> 00:26:28,236 Speaker 1: own power as a potential candidate four years later, or 428 00:26:28,236 --> 00:26:30,556 Speaker 1: at least in the meantime as the most powerful figure 429 00:26:30,596 --> 00:26:32,956 Speaker 1: in the Republican Party. It. I mean, that's the sort 430 00:26:32,996 --> 00:26:36,756 Speaker 1: of like serious self harm story from the standpoint of 431 00:26:36,756 --> 00:26:39,316 Speaker 1: the Democrats, if indeed they push forward too quickly, am 432 00:26:39,316 --> 00:26:42,196 Speaker 1: I reading? You're right? I agree with that completely. You 433 00:26:42,396 --> 00:26:46,396 Speaker 1: said it perfectly. I think we have to be cautious 434 00:26:46,436 --> 00:26:49,796 Speaker 1: of that. It's a big moment now that Biden's inheriting 435 00:26:49,836 --> 00:26:53,956 Speaker 1: a major problem with COVID in the economy, and he's 436 00:26:53,996 --> 00:26:56,956 Speaker 1: got to keep focused to not let Donald Trump be 437 00:26:57,116 --> 00:26:59,156 Speaker 1: jumping around in his head. The one thing we don't 438 00:26:59,196 --> 00:27:02,156 Speaker 1: want to do is turn Trump into a martyr, you know, 439 00:27:02,236 --> 00:27:05,516 Speaker 1: immediately make him a folk hero that he beat the 440 00:27:05,636 --> 00:27:10,556 Speaker 1: rap yet again, and he'll probably does have a self pardon. 441 00:27:10,876 --> 00:27:15,196 Speaker 1: You know, I've been convinced by John Deane, colleague of Mina, 442 00:27:15,396 --> 00:27:19,316 Speaker 1: on CNN, who says that without a doubt Trump will 443 00:27:19,356 --> 00:27:24,036 Speaker 1: sign a personal pardon with his own private lawyer and 444 00:27:24,076 --> 00:27:27,676 Speaker 1: put it in a safe without announcing it to the public. 445 00:27:27,796 --> 00:27:30,436 Speaker 1: You can assume, Noah, that when you see Trump leave 446 00:27:30,556 --> 00:27:35,116 Speaker 1: for Florida, he has already signed and has notarized a 447 00:27:35,196 --> 00:27:38,676 Speaker 1: self pardon that he can pull out at any moment 448 00:27:38,796 --> 00:27:42,716 Speaker 1: and try to actualize when that gets pulled out. If 449 00:27:42,756 --> 00:27:45,156 Speaker 1: it gets pulled out, then that's going to eventually become 450 00:27:45,196 --> 00:27:48,876 Speaker 1: a Supreme Court case whether a president has the right 451 00:27:49,036 --> 00:27:52,756 Speaker 1: to self pardon or not. And it gets back to 452 00:27:52,876 --> 00:27:57,516 Speaker 1: my original complaint. I think we need to do some 453 00:27:57,596 --> 00:28:02,036 Speaker 1: clean up work on the twenty fifth Amendment on impeachments, 454 00:28:02,556 --> 00:28:06,236 Speaker 1: on pardoning. It seems to me that the fact that 455 00:28:06,276 --> 00:28:09,556 Speaker 1: we as a society don't know whether a president consult 456 00:28:09,636 --> 00:28:14,556 Speaker 1: partner not because nobody's ever done that before, and we've 457 00:28:14,596 --> 00:28:16,316 Speaker 1: got to wait and see till it goes to the 458 00:28:16,396 --> 00:28:20,076 Speaker 1: Supreme Court tells me that we might need to try 459 00:28:20,116 --> 00:28:22,916 Speaker 1: to figure out how to not have this happen again. 460 00:28:23,356 --> 00:28:25,356 Speaker 1: I've been saying since the beginning of the Trump presidency, 461 00:28:25,396 --> 00:28:28,036 Speaker 1: this is a stress test for our constitutional democracy, and 462 00:28:28,076 --> 00:28:29,836 Speaker 1: now we can read the read out of the stress 463 00:28:29,836 --> 00:28:32,236 Speaker 1: test and we see where our weaknesses are, and you've 464 00:28:32,316 --> 00:28:35,876 Speaker 1: highlighted some important ones. Before I let you go, there's 465 00:28:35,876 --> 00:28:38,476 Speaker 1: a question I've been dying to ask you. You are 466 00:28:38,956 --> 00:28:42,436 Speaker 1: the very model of the sober, thoughtful historian, and you 467 00:28:42,516 --> 00:28:47,356 Speaker 1: work on topics of great seriousness, presidential power, environmental protection. 468 00:28:48,316 --> 00:28:52,356 Speaker 1: But you also have a side which features your friendship 469 00:28:52,396 --> 00:28:55,316 Speaker 1: with the late gonzo journalist Hunter S. Thompson, and I 470 00:28:55,676 --> 00:28:58,396 Speaker 1: read that you're actually the literary executor of his estate, 471 00:28:58,396 --> 00:29:02,116 Speaker 1: which is an amazing responsibility. You've worked on the great 472 00:29:02,116 --> 00:29:06,476 Speaker 1: documentary with Johnny Depp about him. What's the backstory here? 473 00:29:06,516 --> 00:29:08,596 Speaker 1: How did you get to know Hunter S. Thompson And 474 00:29:08,756 --> 00:29:12,556 Speaker 1: what was the cement in your friendship. My mom and 475 00:29:12,636 --> 00:29:15,356 Speaker 1: dad were high school teachers and we had a twenty 476 00:29:15,396 --> 00:29:19,116 Speaker 1: four foot Coachman trailer, and so we traveled around the 477 00:29:19,156 --> 00:29:21,596 Speaker 1: summer and we would do road trips. So I became 478 00:29:21,676 --> 00:29:25,836 Speaker 1: a great lover of that kind of family vacation meets 479 00:29:26,436 --> 00:29:30,036 Speaker 1: Jack carrollas on the road. So when I was a 480 00:29:30,116 --> 00:29:33,436 Speaker 1: young professor in nineteen ninety two, I got a bus 481 00:29:33,476 --> 00:29:36,796 Speaker 1: called the Magic Bus, and college students would live on 482 00:29:36,836 --> 00:29:39,276 Speaker 1: the bus and we'd go for a semester all over 483 00:29:39,316 --> 00:29:43,516 Speaker 1: America thirty five thousand miles. We'd even go up to Alaska, 484 00:29:44,036 --> 00:29:48,676 Speaker 1: visiting presidential libraries, homes of people like Martin Luther King 485 00:29:48,796 --> 00:29:53,156 Speaker 1: or Helen Keller, Willi Kather, john Steinbeck on and on. 486 00:29:53,196 --> 00:29:56,596 Speaker 1: It was an all purpose American studies road trip. And 487 00:29:56,716 --> 00:29:59,396 Speaker 1: I would have the students read classic books, and when 488 00:29:59,396 --> 00:30:01,676 Speaker 1: I had them read Fear and Loving in Las Vegas. 489 00:30:02,276 --> 00:30:06,556 Speaker 1: We visited Hunter Wis Thompson in Colorado. We met Arthur 490 00:30:06,556 --> 00:30:10,036 Speaker 1: Miller in Connecticut, and Tony Morrise in New York, and 491 00:30:10,196 --> 00:30:14,076 Speaker 1: Ken Kesey and ore again. So they're about fifty writers 492 00:30:14,116 --> 00:30:17,756 Speaker 1: that were part of my program. Dick Goodwin, who died recently, 493 00:30:17,836 --> 00:30:20,996 Speaker 1: Doris Kerr and Goodwin's husband was great friends with Hunter, 494 00:30:21,556 --> 00:30:24,676 Speaker 1: and Dick Goodwin and Arthur Slussingshire both liked Hunter and 495 00:30:24,716 --> 00:30:27,076 Speaker 1: knew him and said, well, if you're doing that book, 496 00:30:27,076 --> 00:30:29,916 Speaker 1: why don't you go visit Hunter in Colorado. So I 497 00:30:29,996 --> 00:30:33,236 Speaker 1: pulled my bus in and he actually was kind of 498 00:30:33,236 --> 00:30:36,236 Speaker 1: a mensch, except Hunter would shoot all of the books. 499 00:30:36,276 --> 00:30:39,676 Speaker 1: All the other authors would autograph them. Hunter we make 500 00:30:39,676 --> 00:30:42,796 Speaker 1: them put it against a tree and shoot him. So 501 00:30:42,956 --> 00:30:45,916 Speaker 1: suddenly their book had a big bullet hole in him. Well, 502 00:30:45,996 --> 00:30:48,396 Speaker 1: some of the students thought that was idiotic, but there 503 00:30:48,396 --> 00:30:51,236 Speaker 1: were about half of the students that, oh my god, 504 00:30:51,236 --> 00:30:55,436 Speaker 1: it's so cruel. Hunter shot my book, you know. And 505 00:30:55,436 --> 00:30:59,356 Speaker 1: we became quite friendly. And he then asked me whether 506 00:30:59,396 --> 00:31:02,076 Speaker 1: I had helped him edit down some of his books, 507 00:31:02,636 --> 00:31:04,996 Speaker 1: and he trusted me enough to go in his basement, 508 00:31:05,076 --> 00:31:08,236 Speaker 1: and I found a goal mine of great writing and 509 00:31:08,316 --> 00:31:11,756 Speaker 1: brought out The Proud Highway, his first volume of collected 510 00:31:11,836 --> 00:31:16,196 Speaker 1: letters that I edited, Fear and Loathing in America, and 511 00:31:16,236 --> 00:31:19,196 Speaker 1: then a third one called a Mutineer I have queued 512 00:31:19,276 --> 00:31:22,676 Speaker 1: up right now to eventually bring out too. A Hunter 513 00:31:22,796 --> 00:31:27,036 Speaker 1: was a great satirist, a great natural, almost athletic writer 514 00:31:27,116 --> 00:31:31,796 Speaker 1: in his prime and had a prophetic sense, a bit 515 00:31:31,796 --> 00:31:35,276 Speaker 1: of a seer about some things. And so we became friends. 516 00:31:35,796 --> 00:31:39,036 Speaker 1: And while he drank and drugged a lot, he was 517 00:31:39,116 --> 00:31:41,356 Speaker 1: able to give a lot of good advice to me 518 00:31:41,396 --> 00:31:44,236 Speaker 1: in my personal life, which is kind of odd. But 519 00:31:44,356 --> 00:31:47,556 Speaker 1: he was unable to deal with his own personal life, 520 00:31:47,556 --> 00:31:49,476 Speaker 1: but he was smart enough to be able to give 521 00:31:49,516 --> 00:31:53,556 Speaker 1: good advice for somebody coming up the ladder. So while 522 00:31:53,596 --> 00:31:55,996 Speaker 1: I did my work in history, I learned a lot 523 00:31:56,036 --> 00:31:59,756 Speaker 1: about journalism from Hunter. That's completely fascinating and I hugely 524 00:31:59,796 --> 00:32:02,196 Speaker 1: appreciate that account. And I just want to thank you 525 00:32:02,316 --> 00:32:04,756 Speaker 1: very very much for your amazing work, for your time, 526 00:32:04,796 --> 00:32:07,556 Speaker 1: and for sharing your perspective with us this week. Thank 527 00:32:07,596 --> 00:32:10,716 Speaker 1: you for your amazing work everything you do. You have 528 00:32:10,796 --> 00:32:15,276 Speaker 1: a brilliant legal mind in your amazing asset to our country. 529 00:32:15,316 --> 00:32:17,076 Speaker 1: So and I saw you wanted me to do this, 530 00:32:17,476 --> 00:32:19,636 Speaker 1: I felt honored you wanted me to be on your 531 00:32:19,636 --> 00:32:30,276 Speaker 1: podcast to thank you. After talking to Professor Brinkley, I 532 00:32:30,436 --> 00:32:34,716 Speaker 1: came away with two central ideas. The first is that 533 00:32:34,756 --> 00:32:38,636 Speaker 1: Donald Trump's conduct as president culminating in the attack on 534 00:32:38,676 --> 00:32:41,756 Speaker 1: the Capitol, which he encouraged, and according to the article 535 00:32:41,756 --> 00:32:47,516 Speaker 1: of impeachment incited is an extraordinary outlier in US history, 536 00:32:48,236 --> 00:32:51,676 Speaker 1: so much so that Pressor Brinkley thinks we actually need 537 00:32:51,716 --> 00:32:54,996 Speaker 1: to take a closer look at the mechanisms of constitutional 538 00:32:55,116 --> 00:32:59,076 Speaker 1: power that we have to constrain a president who seems 539 00:32:59,076 --> 00:33:03,036 Speaker 1: to be going off the rails. The second point from 540 00:33:03,036 --> 00:33:07,436 Speaker 1: our conversation is more nuanced, and it's about how history 541 00:33:07,596 --> 00:33:11,916 Speaker 1: is likely to view this moment. Looking at President Nixon's 542 00:33:11,916 --> 00:33:16,316 Speaker 1: resignation and how the Republican Party and the Democratic Party 543 00:33:16,436 --> 00:33:20,876 Speaker 1: ultimately worked together to create a new story. Professor Brinkley 544 00:33:20,916 --> 00:33:25,636 Speaker 1: made the point that over time, we Americans tend to 545 00:33:25,676 --> 00:33:30,276 Speaker 1: create common historical narratives that function to bring us closer together, 546 00:33:30,916 --> 00:33:35,236 Speaker 1: even if they sometimes involve papering over some of the 547 00:33:35,316 --> 00:33:40,156 Speaker 1: most shocking aspects of the past, including shocking aspects of 548 00:33:40,196 --> 00:33:45,796 Speaker 1: presidential conduct. What that would mean for understanding the attack 549 00:33:45,876 --> 00:33:49,836 Speaker 1: on Congress in historical terms would be that the attack 550 00:33:49,876 --> 00:33:53,636 Speaker 1: would be somehow peripheralized, by which I mean it would 551 00:33:53,636 --> 00:33:57,036 Speaker 1: be treated by history as the action of a small 552 00:33:57,116 --> 00:34:02,316 Speaker 1: number of white supremacists and conspiracy theorists, rather than as 553 00:34:02,476 --> 00:34:06,516 Speaker 1: a manifestation of a national political movement that to a 554 00:34:06,516 --> 00:34:10,036 Speaker 1: certain degree came to take over the Republican Party, and 555 00:34:10,116 --> 00:34:13,796 Speaker 1: that denied the legitimacy of the results of the twenty 556 00:34:13,836 --> 00:34:18,556 Speaker 1: twenty presidential election. In order for a narrative like that 557 00:34:18,596 --> 00:34:22,956 Speaker 1: to emerge, a narrative that treated the capital attack as 558 00:34:23,116 --> 00:34:26,636 Speaker 1: far from the mainstream of American politics, there would have 559 00:34:26,716 --> 00:34:30,356 Speaker 1: to be a gradual process in which the Republican Party 560 00:34:30,476 --> 00:34:34,996 Speaker 1: came to accept the twenty twenty transition of power as legitimate. 561 00:34:35,636 --> 00:34:37,876 Speaker 1: For that to happen, the Republican Party would have to 562 00:34:38,036 --> 00:34:43,436 Speaker 1: de emphasize Donald Trump, and then and only then would 563 00:34:43,436 --> 00:34:45,916 Speaker 1: a new story be able to be told about the 564 00:34:45,916 --> 00:34:50,276 Speaker 1: attack on the Capitol, perhaps not completely accurate, but designed 565 00:34:50,316 --> 00:34:54,596 Speaker 1: to reestablish a national consensus. If that happens, and I 566 00:34:54,636 --> 00:34:57,476 Speaker 1: emphasize that that's only an if, it would show the 567 00:34:57,556 --> 00:35:02,716 Speaker 1: capacity of a US political system to retell, reframe, and 568 00:35:02,836 --> 00:35:07,956 Speaker 1: reshape historical narratives in order to generate outcomes of reconciliation. 569 00:35:08,756 --> 00:35:12,236 Speaker 1: If that happened, then the historical process would have operated 570 00:35:12,476 --> 00:35:15,196 Speaker 1: in a way really reminiscent of the aftermath of Richard 571 00:35:15,276 --> 00:35:19,716 Speaker 1: Nixon's presidency, in which ultimately the pardon if Nixon and 572 00:35:19,756 --> 00:35:23,836 Speaker 1: the public decision to quote move on enable the Republican 573 00:35:23,876 --> 00:35:28,196 Speaker 1: Party to avoid any serious long term costs for having 574 00:35:28,236 --> 00:35:32,756 Speaker 1: elected a president who abused the power of the office 575 00:35:33,196 --> 00:35:37,876 Speaker 1: and ultimately had to resign. These are all predictions made 576 00:35:37,876 --> 00:35:42,636 Speaker 1: against the backdrop of historical experience. They're falsifiable. They might 577 00:35:42,716 --> 00:35:45,396 Speaker 1: turn out not to be true. We will find out 578 00:35:45,476 --> 00:35:48,956 Speaker 1: in the future, the near future, what's right and what's not. 579 00:35:49,676 --> 00:35:52,636 Speaker 1: But as always, we can benefit from a deep encounter 580 00:35:53,116 --> 00:35:56,876 Speaker 1: with historical background material to help us make an educated 581 00:35:56,956 --> 00:36:01,556 Speaker 1: guess at what might happen next. Meanwhile, we have not 582 00:36:01,716 --> 00:36:05,516 Speaker 1: forgotten the COVID nineteen pandemic. We are hard at work 583 00:36:05,756 --> 00:36:10,276 Speaker 1: to bring you episodes exploring the latest developments, including a 584 00:36:10,356 --> 00:36:14,996 Speaker 1: conversation in the very near future about what new variants 585 00:36:14,996 --> 00:36:18,276 Speaker 1: of the virus mean for the configuration of health and 586 00:36:18,436 --> 00:36:21,916 Speaker 1: power in the world. Until the next time I speak 587 00:36:21,916 --> 00:36:27,076 Speaker 1: to you, be careful, be safe, and be well. Deep 588 00:36:27,076 --> 00:36:30,396 Speaker 1: Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer 589 00:36:30,516 --> 00:36:33,876 Speaker 1: is Mo laboord our engineer is Martin Gonzalez, and our 590 00:36:33,916 --> 00:36:38,476 Speaker 1: shore runner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. Editorial support from noahm Osband. 591 00:36:38,916 --> 00:36:42,596 Speaker 1: Theme music by Luis Skara at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobell, 592 00:36:42,876 --> 00:36:48,036 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Lydia, Jean Coott, Heather Faine, Carl mcniori, Maggie Taylor, 593 00:36:48,156 --> 00:36:50,996 Speaker 1: Eric Xander, and Jacob Weisberg. You can find me on 594 00:36:50,996 --> 00:36:54,036 Speaker 1: Twitter at Noah rfeld. I also write a column for 595 00:36:54,036 --> 00:36:57,076 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find at Bloomberg dot com 596 00:36:57,076 --> 00:37:01,236 Speaker 1: slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, go 597 00:37:01,316 --> 00:37:04,556 Speaker 1: to Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts, and if you liked 598 00:37:04,556 --> 00:37:07,116 Speaker 1: what you heard today, please write a review or tell 599 00:37:07,156 --> 00:37:08,956 Speaker 1: a friend. This is deep back.