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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Matt Gates says he may be

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Speaker 1: attorney general if Trump is reelected. Well, there's a pretty

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Speaker 1: good reason not to vote for Trump. We have such

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Speaker 1: a great show for you today. Former Ohio Congressman Tim

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Speaker 1: Ryan joins us to talk about his new pack, We

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Speaker 1: the People. Then we'll talk to Grist writer Jake Biddle

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Speaker 1: about climate displacement and how climate change will change all

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Speaker 1: of our lives. But first we have NBC News correspondent

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Speaker 1: Von Hilliard. Welcome to Fast Politics. Von Hilliard.

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Speaker 2: Hi, therek, Thanks so much for having me, Molly.

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Speaker 1: I am so excited to have you, and I want

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Speaker 1: to tell the story of you know, I've watching you

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Speaker 1: on television for a million years, and even though you're

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Speaker 1: quite young, so it hasn't been a millionaires, but I've

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Speaker 1: always been a fan.

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Speaker 3: It's turned into a million years, so I appreciate it.

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Speaker 3: So acknowledgement that it has been more than a couple

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Speaker 3: of years is actually appreciated.

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Speaker 1: Man. We were on Morning Joe together and I was

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Speaker 1: watching you in the segment before me. It was like, actually,

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Speaker 1: as I was listening to it, I was getting more

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Speaker 1: and more upset and anxious, and I thought, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: this is really really worrying and scary, and why are

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Speaker 1: we not sounding the alarm on this all the time.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm hoping you could talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about where you just were, who you just interviewed, and

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Speaker 1: what they just said.

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Speaker 3: Right, I mean I was so, I was in New

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Speaker 3: Hampshire just literally the night before. We were on listening

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Speaker 3: Joe together. And this was Trump's first rally since the

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Speaker 3: indictment on the federal charges related to that for sober

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Speaker 3: turning last election. And one thing when I've been going

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Speaker 3: to these I know you've been to them. I've been

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Speaker 3: going to these now since twenty fifteen. And the thing

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Speaker 3: that strikes me number one, how often there are number

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Speaker 3: one first timers at these events. Number Two, though in

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Speaker 3: conversations with these voters repeatedly you hear very die type

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Speaker 3: of descriptions. This this one woman I was talking to the

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Speaker 3: other day, which talking openly about the Civil War. I mean,

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Speaker 3: she's saying this on camera. This is not like passing comments.

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Speaker 3: These people saying that they will openly go and defend

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Speaker 3: another man and will go openly and go and defend

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: They were to try to put him into prison.

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Speaker 3: But it's very violent, warlike rhetoric that these are otherwise

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Speaker 3: normal people, normal Americans are talking. It's one person after

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Speaker 3: the next. These aren't just one offs, and it's like

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Speaker 3: that balance of do we want to promote them? No,

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Speaker 3: but at some point we have to acknowledge that these

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Speaker 3: aren't just a few random individuals. This is widespread across

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Speaker 3: the country.

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Speaker 1: We talk a lot about media bubbles. There wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: been so many donors so smugly excited about DeSantis had

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Speaker 1: they not lived in a media bubble, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: because or even just met anyone in Florida who was like,

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Speaker 1: the guy's kind of weird. So that is why I

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Speaker 1: wanted When I was listening to I was thinking, because

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't think of New Hampshire as Mississippi.

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Speaker 1: I think of New I'm sure is a very mixed state,

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Speaker 1: but it's actually been largely a bluestay. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: ask you. You know, you have been doing this since

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Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, so you really have seen a progression. I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering if you could talk a little bit about how

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Speaker 1: these attendees have changed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think Donald Trump actually said it

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Speaker 3: best himself in New Hampshire the other day. From the stage,

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Speaker 3: he said that the Maga bakes is more spirited than

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Speaker 3: ever before. Spirited and passionate were his words that ever before.

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Speaker 3: I turned to my producer to him, I was just like,

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Speaker 3: he's absolutely right. It's maybe a smaller bax. Right, There's

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Speaker 3: maybe some folks that have got off the Maga train,

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Speaker 3: the Trump train, but those that are still in it

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Speaker 3: are more fervent and serious than ever before. In twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 3: twenty sixteen, it was the Trump Theater Show, right, it

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Speaker 3: was laughing as he mocked the physical appearances of Carly

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Speaker 3: Fiorina and Marco Rubio drinking out of a water bottle. Right,

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Speaker 3: But then that evolved into twenty twenty when we all

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Speaker 3: lived through January sixth. But now, oh, you know, when

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Speaker 3: he talks about revenge and retribution, like the people are

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Speaker 3: listening to him, those aren't just it's not a campaign live.

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Speaker 2: I mean it is.

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Speaker 3: It is outside of an election that we are talking about.

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Speaker 3: It is a fundamental effort to take back in their

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Speaker 3: minds the government and like I remember, it was in

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Speaker 3: October of last year, ahead of the midterm elections, just

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Speaker 3: a couple of weeks before outside of Mesa, Arizona. And

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Speaker 3: I mean, this is right Carrie lady quiz at the event,

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Speaker 3: Mark beIN Shutta on the Secretary of state candidate who

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Speaker 3: was an election deny er. I mean, these folks. It

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Speaker 3: was a ninety something degrees and this man came up

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Speaker 3: to me after I had asked to talk to him

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Speaker 3: on camera. He didn't say these were on camera to me,

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Speaker 3: but he came up to me and he goes, you know,

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Speaker 3: you seem like a nice guy, but you're with NBC,

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Speaker 3: and he goes, I just want you to know, like

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Speaker 3: the corporate media are going to be among the first

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Speaker 3: to go. And it took me aback, I didn't even

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Speaker 3: know how to respond. Among the first to go. We

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Speaker 3: know exactly what he was talking about, Molly, and this

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Speaker 3: man I don't think he had truly was a bad man,

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Speaker 3: but he was talking about very dire terms. Because that's

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Speaker 3: how serious he takes this moment.

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Speaker 1: It's almost more dangerous because there are less of them

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Speaker 1: and they are more worried right.

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Speaker 2: Right in Look, I mean, you just wrote it about this.

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Speaker 3: The Republican lawmakers that are otherwise supposed to be respected

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Speaker 3: statesmen from their respective states representing them either at the

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Speaker 3: state level or at the federal level, have legitimized or

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Speaker 3: offer credit credence to Donald Trump in this movement and

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Speaker 3: continue to stick by him. So I think the words

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Speaker 3: of Europe's Weeper perfect because for these folks, right, it

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Speaker 3: is worth sticking as part of this army, if you will,

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Speaker 3: this side until somebody tells them otherwise. And Rod DeSantis, right,

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Speaker 3: the super back spend tens of millions of dollars at

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Speaker 3: this point to promote their candidate. But it's it's not

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Speaker 3: like you're seeing some wide spread, one hundred million dollar

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Speaker 3: campaign from the right to lay out, you know, the

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Speaker 3: flaws of Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: Chris Christie is doing that.

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Speaker 3: But really, Chris Christi and Asa Hutchinson, they've only got

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Speaker 3: so much firepower behind them and only so much legitimacy.

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Speaker 2: End that's Republican Party.

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Speaker 1: What are the ways in which or how could this

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Speaker 1: be stopped? Like if you wanted to take the temperature down,

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Speaker 1: if your question was, what would you think? I mean,

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Speaker 1: now you've seen these people, you've seen this sort of

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Speaker 1: look in their eyes. I mean, what do you think

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Speaker 1: would do it right? Because they are living on earth too, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean they think he won twenty twenty. I mean

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Speaker 1: they're sort of so far down the rabbit hole they

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Speaker 1: probably think what they're doing is the right thing.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: Truthfully, I appreciate NBC for having me go to these

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Speaker 3: events around the country consistently over the last several years,

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Speaker 3: because I don't think that necessarily, even our politicians, who

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Speaker 3: are some enablers or allies of Donald Trump, you're staying

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Speaker 3: and the seriousness of it, I really don't. I thought

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Speaker 3: January sixth would be able to wake up calling. It

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Speaker 3: was for at least several weeks or months. But I

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Speaker 3: still don't think that these politicians are necessarily having these

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Speaker 3: types of conversations repeat with folks about Sibil Warren. If

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Speaker 3: they are, I'm not right there for every one of

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Speaker 3: their combos in life. But if they are, then boy,

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Speaker 3: they are complicit in something that is knowingly complicit in

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Speaker 3: something that is increasingly dangerous. Because I don't know what

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Speaker 3: the next January six is, but I think we're heading

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Speaker 3: to that point. And so what is the solution? Number One,

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Speaker 3: It's Donald Trump telling people, you know, the violence and

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Speaker 3: that you know that the legitimate justice system here in

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Speaker 3: the country. But obviously he has shown that that is

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Speaker 3: he's going to take the exact opposite measure. Otherwise it's

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Speaker 3: going to be a united I think political frauct which

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Speaker 3: we have not seen Republicans be willing to take a stand,

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Speaker 3: and that's nine years running.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what honestly changes it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I do think that if you could

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Speaker 1: get Republicans to you know, really, I mean, people like Macads,

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Speaker 1: you know, instead of talking about immunity, to say, look,

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Speaker 1: you know, we may not be happy with what, you know,

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Speaker 1: how this is going. But there's been a lot of

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Speaker 1: investigation in the twenty twenty election and it's clearly was

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Speaker 1: a legitimate election.

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Speaker 3: He is successfully though, thrown so many of the Republicans

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Speaker 3: that have signed away from him off the cliff and

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Speaker 3: with no punishment, you know. I mean, Kim Reynolds is

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Speaker 3: the latest, the governor of Iowa, and just because he

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Speaker 3: didn't invite her to come speak at a recent event

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Speaker 3: last month, suddenly Kim Reynolds is all but dead to him.

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Speaker 3: And so, I mean, are is this going to prove again?

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Speaker 3: And Tim Reynolds an even say anything bad about Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: She just didn't come and call it him to speak

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Speaker 3: before his event. So and maybe also when I spoke

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Speaker 3: Aronda Santa's event. So, I mean, at some point Republicans

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Speaker 3: have realized that Donald Trump has a very real sheet

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Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen and twenty twenty, if you were to

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Speaker 3: win again, you would be in the White House for

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Speaker 3: forty years, And so do they want to be a

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Speaker 3: part of the political process. And that's what the calculation

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Speaker 3: they're all making, I think right now.

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Speaker 1: I mean, so it is really an issue of self

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Speaker 1: preservation versus preservation of democracy. I'm just curious, though, when

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Speaker 1: you're in the spaces, when you're at these rallies, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem to me like the rhetoric has changed all

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Speaker 1: that much on Trump's part.

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Speaker 3: On Trump's part, the other day, it was the most

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Speaker 3: defiant that I had felt him. And again that's why

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Speaker 3: I wish that when I stand in these events, they

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Speaker 3: were said everybody, you know, my family and other politicians

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Speaker 3: and other journalists were all in that room there. Because

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Speaker 3: you can see the way that people respond to him

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Speaker 3: is increasingly you're cheering on your ball club in a way.

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Speaker 3: That is you feel it in the room that people

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Speaker 3: are following him and they feel like this is a fight.

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Speaker 3: It's religious and they're trying to frankly, keep their man

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Speaker 3: out of Prinson. That is what this election is suddenly

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Speaker 3: about in twenty twenty four. And you know, I've been

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Speaker 3: to I don't know how many state fairs over the years,

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Speaker 3: from Iowa to Nebraska to Kansas.

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Speaker 2: And it was a couple of years ago in Missouri

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Speaker 2: at the state fair.

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Speaker 3: I remember talking to this woman and you know that

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Speaker 3: she made me play of food. She was, you know,

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Speaker 3: a sweetheart. And then we start talking though, and she

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Speaker 3: was truly concerned. This is twenty eighteen. It turned into

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Speaker 3: a very dark place, this woman who was veryncerned about

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Speaker 3: the future of her country. And that is where Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump has led these people. And it happens over a

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Speaker 3: period of time, you consume right wing media from a

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Speaker 3: n Newsmax to Fox and it increasingly becomes a saving

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Speaker 3: saving American deocracy in their way, you know, we're talking

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Speaker 3: about saving democracy. They have a very different view of

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Speaker 3: what the effort to save democracy looks like. And it

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Speaker 3: is the view of Donald Trump's that others are trying

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Speaker 3: to take it away from him, and so it's very difficult,

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Speaker 3: you know, trying to converse with voters these days to

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Speaker 3: even understand and the way through the conspiracy theories because

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Speaker 3: you know, why do they and by Donald Trump. It's

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Speaker 3: complex and it's almost a decade worth of layers at

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Speaker 3: this point to try to work your way through to

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Speaker 3: wholly understand.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about some of the

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Speaker 1: sort of ways in which he attacks his enemy is

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Speaker 1: because I was thinking about the sort of Fannie willis

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Speaker 1: his attacks on her. They remind me of his attacks

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Speaker 1: on Hillary right.

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Speaker 3: Frankly the other day at this New Yorkshire rally, I

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Speaker 3: don't even want to repeat the specific claim, but he

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Speaker 3: made a case about an alleged previous relationship she had

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Speaker 3: had with a game member. These are the parts, though

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Speaker 3: that people latch onto, you know, if you talk about

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Speaker 3: Jack Smith's past, you know, family relations, and these people

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Speaker 3: aren't booking though, generally for the actual truth, because Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump is their truth teller. Donald Trump is there, is

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Speaker 3: their leader, and they are the followers of him, and

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Speaker 3: what he says is truth. And so his attacks on

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Speaker 3: Fannie will is, you know, he calls a racist at

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Speaker 3: every single rally he calls le Titian James a racist.

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Speaker 3: At every time he brings up the New York Attorney

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Speaker 3: General symble case against the Trump organization, him and his

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Speaker 3: kids for just getting any details out of Utah. The

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Speaker 3: man who died as the FBI was serving the arrest

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Speaker 3: warrant for the serious threats that he made against the

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Speaker 3: life allegedly of President Biden and Alvin Bragg, the district

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Speaker 3: to turn in Manhattan. And we you know, watched earlier

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Speaker 3: the spring Molly, right, we watched his attacks.

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Speaker 2: Incessantly against Alvin Bragg.

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Speaker 3: At one point, he you know, put on social media

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Speaker 3: an image of Alvin Bragg next to Donald Trump with

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Speaker 3: the base.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And you know, don and Trump may view this as

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Speaker 3: a game, right where he can just you know, put

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Speaker 3: social media posts out and go around the country and

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Speaker 3: act like a rock star and lambasted his perceived enemies.

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Speaker 3: But I can tell you that his followers they don't

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Speaker 3: view this as a game or just politics. They view

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Speaker 3: this as a as a fight to hold on to

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Speaker 3: this country that Donald Trump is telling them that he's leading.

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Speaker 2: And where does this end. I that's the part that

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Speaker 2: scares me the most. Molly.

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Speaker 3: I don't whether he's put in prison or loses another election.

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Speaker 3: They know that there are millions of Americans who believe

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Speaker 3: the consequences of either those two things are too dire

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Speaker 3: for them to not take a more active stand. Because

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Speaker 3: I believe there's a great number of Americans that believe

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Speaker 3: that going to the ballot box alone is not enough,

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Speaker 3: is not worthy enough or enough on their part to

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Speaker 3: stand up for this country, that it could very well

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Speaker 3: take something much greater action than just about alone, and

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Speaker 3: you know, to truly be their independence of Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: and their country.

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Speaker 1: It's odd because it's so scary and it is kind

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Speaker 1: of amazing that nothing has happened. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: even want to talk like this because all any of

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Speaker 1: us want is for there not to be violence, and

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Speaker 1: they're not and people not to hurt each other. And

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Speaker 1: in fact, the reason why you're talking about this is

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Speaker 1: because you really I can hear it in your voice,

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Speaker 1: concerned that this could happen.

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Speaker 3: I don't think a lot of people like that, even

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Speaker 3: work with the Trump campaign, necessarily are inherently bad people, right,

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Speaker 3: But I don't think folks are truly understanding in this country, right,

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Speaker 3: Everybody else, a neighbor that is voted for Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: work continues to support him. I don't think they're necessarily

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Speaker 3: bad people. I just don't think by and large, we

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Speaker 3: understand enough the gravity of just how much of a

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Speaker 3: threat some people pose to elected leaders and even their neighbors.

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Speaker 1: What's fundamentally so scary and why I feel like it's

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Speaker 1: so important that you're talking about this is that you're

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Speaker 1: seeing something that you know, who even knows that people?

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Speaker 1: I mean, certainly Trump probably sees what's going on, But

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Speaker 1: I think there's something that's scary that you know a

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Speaker 1: lot of people are not seeing, which is why it's

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Speaker 1: so important that you talk about it.

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Speaker 3: Right This isn't about conservatism or liberalism. It is about

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Speaker 3: the power grab that a great number of Americans feel

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Speaker 3: like they must be a part of in order to

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Speaker 3: know rightfully take back the White House that they believe

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Speaker 3: was owed to Donald Trump. And if you are, if

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Speaker 3: you're a patriotic American, then it is up up to

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Speaker 3: you to do what it takes to stand by the

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Speaker 3: man that you believe should rightfully be there.

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Speaker 1: And that's the way that so many of them feel

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Speaker 1: it right and so much of our job and the

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Speaker 1: media is really to prevent violence in any way we can.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that you're talking about this because I

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Speaker 1: think that a lot of people who are not like

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Speaker 1: extremely tuned in to the political situation perhaps have forgotten

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Speaker 1: about like these Trump rallies. You know, it's a very

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Speaker 1: small section of the population that is so passionate, but

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Speaker 1: that doesn't you know, many of them are very very

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Speaker 1: well armed to do.

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Speaker 3: And I hope Donald Trump takes a violence seriously, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'd like to believe good enough of another man to

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Speaker 3: believe that they do not want a balo An outcome.

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Speaker 3: The one part that gives to me pause, though, Molli,

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Speaker 3: is the fact that at a great number of these

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Speaker 3: rallies he has openly talked about pardoning January sixth defendants

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Speaker 3: those who used violence in the past to try to

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Speaker 3: stop a peaceful transfer of power. So he is already

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Speaker 3: suggesting openly burdening folks who have used violence in the past.

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Speaker 3: That's the part that gives me pause. And I hope

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Speaker 3: at some point Donald Trump and others around him say

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Speaker 3: we must be a louder voice against this now. Despite

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Speaker 3: whatever griev insince they have against the justice system. Because

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Speaker 3: violence is a result that I have a hard time

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Speaker 3: believing any other fellow American actually wants to see in

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Speaker 3: this and they need to listen to those comments by

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Speaker 3: their own supporters. When they talk about civil war, they

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Speaker 3: mean it, and they need to be more outspoken and

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Speaker 3: say that that is on a path forward for this country.

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Speaker 1: Vaughan Hilliard, thank you so much for joining us and

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Speaker 1: absolutely stark but really important message.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate Michael, thanks so much for talking it through.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Tim Ryan is a former congressman and founder of We

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Speaker 1: the People. You can find more information about We the

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Speaker 1: People at We Thepeople two fifty dot us. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Fast Politics, Tim Ryan.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: First, we're going to talk. You've launched an action fund.

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Speaker 1: Explain to us what it is and what it does,

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Speaker 1: and then we're going to just get into Ohio.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Cool, No, thanks for the opportunity. Great could be

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Speaker 2: with you. It's called We the People two fifty Action Fund,

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Speaker 2: and we're organizing this around the two hundred and fiftieth

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Speaker 2: birthday of the United States of America. And you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a minor miracle we've made it this far, and

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Speaker 2: you know those of us out here in the fight

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Speaker 2: with kids. It's we want to keep it rolling, and

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Speaker 2: this is going to be the home for the exhausted majority.

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Speaker 2: I mean, anybody who's been paying a lick of attention

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Speaker 2: to the politics in the last decade plus here even more.

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Speaker 2: It's exhausting and and you know my fear talking to

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Speaker 2: friends back home, people are going to check out. They're saying,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to vote. You know, it's just gotten

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Speaker 2: too toxic. And we want people to have a home

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Speaker 2: with us at We the people to fight the anti

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Speaker 2: democratic forces in this country, led by the MAGA movement,

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Speaker 2: the Trump movement, but also we want to highlight the

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Speaker 2: really cool things going on in the country. There's a

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Speaker 2: lot of solutions that are out there. There's a comeback

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Speaker 2: of the steel industry, MDMA and cybin and these things

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Speaker 2: are healing veterans from their post traumatic stress. There's amazing

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Speaker 2: mindfulness programs and schools that are helping kids deal with

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Speaker 2: their trauma. The programs like inter Explore and others. We're

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Speaker 2: going to highlight these things, build an organization that supports them,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to start moving a needle in the

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Speaker 2: country around some of these broken systems that have been

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Speaker 2: broken for so long, and we need new ideas that

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Speaker 2: we're going to fix these old problems. And that's what

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Speaker 2: we're going to be doing it with the people.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about Ohio. Big day for Ohio. On Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: Republicans decided to run a special election. You guys have

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Speaker 1: a special name for it issue, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're called the issues and state issues to been

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Speaker 2: the convolution yet right.

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Speaker 1: To raise the threshold to sixty percent in order to

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Speaker 1: have constitutional amendments. They failed quite spectacularly. What does this mean?

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Speaker 1: You know, we think of Ohio as such a red

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Speaker 1: state now, and I'm sure you know, as a Democrat

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Speaker 1: from Ohio, you think of it that way. But you know,

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Speaker 1: if you look back on the most recent elections, you know,

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Speaker 1: even though they did ultimately elect JD. Vance, it was

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Speaker 1: very much he really underperformed. I mean, doesn't it seem

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Speaker 1: to you like your state is changing?

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Speaker 2: You know, we have a Republican senator and we have

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Speaker 2: a Democratic senator, Sharon Brown. It's still our senator here.

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Speaker 2: I think Ohio is a toss up state, honestly, and

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Speaker 2: I just think that, you know, the way the perception

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Speaker 2: of the national Democratic Party in Ohio is not good.

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Speaker 2: And I've you know, said that for year to year

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Speaker 2: and years, and let me give you let me give

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Speaker 2: you two good examples. One was what just happened on Tuesday, right,

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Speaker 2: here's a small cabal of extremists. Jim Jordan was leading

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Speaker 2: the charge, and these guys that want to say, instead

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Speaker 2: of fifty plus one for a referendum in Ohio to

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Speaker 2: change the constitution, you have to move that to sixty

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Speaker 2: percent of the vote, which is basically saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: minority rule. They were taking rights away, and primarily around abortion.

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Speaker 2: But there were a lot of libertarians, there are a

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Speaker 2: lot of you know, pro choice Republicans, there are a

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Speaker 2: lot of Republicans. This is like, this is a power

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Speaker 2: grab by the extremist and so it went down because

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Speaker 2: there was taking power away from working class people. Set

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Speaker 2: that next to what happened in twenty eleven when then

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Speaker 2: Republican Governor John Kasik and the Republican legislature tried to

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Speaker 2: take away collective bargaining rights. We had a huge campaign

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Speaker 2: to put we put that on the ballot, had a

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Speaker 2: huge campaign. We won that with sixty three percent. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so here's my point. Molly is that when this is

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Speaker 2: a working class state with Midwestern sensibilities, it's not an

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Speaker 2: extreme state. And what's happened is that the Republicans of

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Speaker 2: gerrymander and redistricted their way into a supermajority. And that

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Speaker 2: in conjunction with I think the Democrats getting away from

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Speaker 2: the economic messages that play well to those ross belt

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Speaker 2: towns down the Ohio River, Toledo, Youngstown, Akron, Cleveland like

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Speaker 2: these are working class pounds. They want to talk straight

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Speaker 2: jobs and economics, pensions, infrastructure, building stuff, you know, manufacturing,

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Speaker 2: and so if the party gets off of that and

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Speaker 2: it's now seen as not into that, it hurts us.

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Speaker 2: But when you put the straight issue on the ballot,

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Speaker 2: we win. So we just got to we got to

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Speaker 2: crack that code here in Ohio and I think a

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Speaker 2: lot of their states and we should have a dominant

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Speaker 2: majority right now. I mean not to get completely on

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Speaker 2: a soapbox, but I get frustrated because we are running

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Speaker 2: against insurrectionists. We're running against really really, really bad people.

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Speaker 2: It should even be cloth.

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Speaker 1: I just want to push back for a minute on

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Speaker 1: this because I know that there is and look, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I have you know, sat on many a panel with

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Speaker 1: many a Democratic politician who is said, you know, like

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Speaker 1: we're distracting from the issues should be manufacturing and not LGBTQ.

437
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,920
Speaker 1: But I think that more and more, and I think

438
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 1: that may have been truer in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen,

439
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, but now we have a situation where the

440
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 1: Republicans have really decided that they're going to target trans

441
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 1: kids and LGBTQ. I mean in a way that it's

442
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 1: not even about civil liberties anymore. It's about like, are

443
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,360
Speaker 1: we going to protect these people from the very scary

444
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 1: I mean, they're bullied, right, and I don't think you

445
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 1: cannot address those issues like I think you know, they

446
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 1: are really I mean some of them are really making

447
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:49,120
Speaker 1: a case. You know, they're they're quietly making overtures towards genocide.

448
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 1: It's really scary. And I would also add that their

449
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 1: war on LGBTQ is part of a larger war against democracy, right,

450
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 1: I mean the ballot iniatives and the you know, taking

451
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 1: away choice and the you know, don't say gay laws

452
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 1: are all sicknesses from the same illness.

453
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 2: I'm glad you just said that, because I think we're

454
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 2: having conversations like this, We've got to be abundantly clear there.

455
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 2: It is absolutely zero tolerance for that level of bullying

456
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 2: and systemic bullying, and that all of this bullshit that

457
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: these guys have been pushing, and you have to fight

458
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 2: it aggressively. You don't, you know, you don't give an

459
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 2: inch ever on those issues. The point I want to make,

460
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 2: and I think this is a pro choice state in Ohio,

461
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 2: this is pro choice country. You know, I live in Cormbus, Ohio. Now,

462
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 2: like the gay community here is thriving, right, thriving, and

463
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,679
Speaker 2: so there's a there's a level of tolerant in states,

464
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 2: you know, with a Midwestern sensibility. My point is that

465
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 2: when you have people, if you go around Ohio, you

466
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 2: go down the Ohio River routes Evan, and you see

467
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 2: the loss of manufacturing, You see the communities falling apart,

468
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 2: You see the addiction, the heroine and the fent and

469
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 2: all you go and see to the industrialization that those

470
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 2: folks are just trying to straight by. They're with us,

471
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 2: I think on these other issues. If you're not talking

472
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 2: directly to them about their job, their wages, their pension,

473
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 2: their the healthcare costs, their prescription drug costs. And I

474
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 2: think that's what Sharon Brown does so well here, which

475
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 2: is why he wins. He's one of the most progressive

476
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: senators you know, in the in the Congress, in the.

477
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 1: Center right, but he has a populist message.

478
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 2: He does. He does, so we can do both, is

479
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 2: my point. But you know, we just the working class folks.

480
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 2: And here's what you know. Another point is, you know,

481
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 2: we've see the numbers go down with African American learners.

482
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 2: We've seen the numbers go down with Latino voters, even

483
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 2: against even with Trump, who you know was mister Charterick

484
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: Snell and in this are yanking immigrants you know from

485
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 2: their kids at the border, Like how is he doing that?

486
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 2: And I think the answer to that is that those

487
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: are working class people helpen to be black, happen to

488
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 2: be Latino that don't see the Democrats as talking enough

489
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: about the economic stuff. So that's just we could do it. Well,

490
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 2: we have to because the alternative is not good.

491
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: I just want to sort of get into this for

492
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: a minute. I think that's right, But I also I

493
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: wonder how much of that is Democrats not I mean,

494
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: for example, right now, the economic story is that Joe

495
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: Biden managed to you know, like him, hate him whatever.

496
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 1: He managed to really stem what was supposed to be

497
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: a recession, and that we're going ahead towards a more

498
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: of a soft landing now whatever that looks like. It

499
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: is a victory of policy, right between that and the

500
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: Chips Act, where they're building you know, you know, they're

501
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: building these trips in America for the first time, infuriating China.

502
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: But also you know, look, I mean, the part of

503
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: the argument here is that there are people in the

504
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: middle of this country who got up one day and

505
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 1: their good jobs were gone, right, I mean, and they

506
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: could not have the same level of living, standard of

507
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 1: living that their parents had had, and they were furious

508
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: as well they should be, because they hadn't done anything

509
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: and they had seen their jobs disappear. But as much

510
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,719
Speaker 1: in my lifetime as I've ever seen, Biden has actually

511
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: moved a lot of these jobs, you know, has tried

512
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 1: as much as possible. I mean, again, globalization cannot be undone,

513
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: but the idea of bringing a lot of this manufacturing

514
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: back to the United States is something that Trump would

515
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: never have done. I mean, So isn't this a failure

516
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: on messaging?

517
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? It is. But I mean that's that's kind of like, like,

518
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 2: you know, the point I was making earlier, like when

519
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 2: you just put these issues on the ballot, we went

520
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 2: on minimum wage. Know, you can look throughout the country.

521
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 2: I think even in like Missouri they won like a

522
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 2: collective bargaining thing a year or two ago. So there

523
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 2: was just an issue on the ballot, you know. So

524
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 2: that's the point. If we can align our values, our beliefs,

525
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 2: our message, and especially with everything that has been done,

526
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: which has been amazing, like we finally have an industrial

527
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 2: policy in the United States of America. I screamed about

528
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 2: it for twenty years in Congress. We finally have one.

529
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: We're making semiconductors, we're making batteries, we're making electric vehicles,

530
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 2: we're making component parts to win in solar like we're

531
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 2: doing it now. But if you ask the average American

532
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 2: you know, who did that, they have no clue. And

533
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 2: so I think, you know, President Biden needs to have

534
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 2: a very energetic grassroots campaign highlighting these things. You know,

535
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 2: the comeback of the steel industry one of the things

536
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: we're going to do it it we the people, you know,

537
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 2: we're going to do a video about that. Because that's

538
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 2: it's amazing what's happened here at places like Cleveland Cliffs,

539
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 2: which are steel worker union jobs. So we have a

540
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: lot to talk about. The President has a lot to

541
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 2: talk about. It's got to be done well because, as

542
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: I said, like the fact that some of these polls

543
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 2: are even remotely close to me is like we're right

544
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 2: on most of these issues, but we've not yet figured

545
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: out quite how to talk about it. And I think

546
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 2: part of it too is that, you know, I think

547
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 2: people are pretty frustrated. They don't see the government working

548
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 2: for them. It is inefficient. We do to spend two

549
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 2: and a half times more on healthcare than all the

550
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: other industrialized countries and get worse results. We need a

551
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 2: preventative health care system, you know, we need trauma in

552
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 2: form care in our schools. We need good healthy food.

553
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 2: We need to bust up the industrial food call you know,

554
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 2: industrial food systems here in the United States that are

555
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 2: corporate dribbling. And now we got half the country with

556
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 2: diabetes or pre diabetes. We can do food as medicine

557
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 2: and that's kind of you know, we the people think

558
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: we want to highlight those things that are going on

559
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: so we can get some oxygen and energy behind them,

560
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: some money behind these things, and then let's take this,

561
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: you know, all these initiatives and create in America two

562
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: point zero. I think people are dying for it, and

563
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 2: that's what we want to do with the people.

564
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, explain to us a little bit about what it

565
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: looks like on the ground in Ohio with the Democratic Party.

566
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: I mean, you have Share Brown wildly popular running for reelection,

567
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: but it has been a very tough state. I mean,

568
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: do you think there's a chance now to kind of

569
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: change the narrative in Ohio after this vote?

570
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think so. We have a we have a

571
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: good new party chair, Liz Walters. You know, she has

572
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 2: not been in very long, but she she really understands

573
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 2: what's going on, you know, so we're moving in the

574
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 2: right direction. I think this was a huge win because

575
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,719
Speaker 2: it is going to give us some energy. You know,

576
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,479
Speaker 2: just any sports team, any anything you're doing, you got

577
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: to get a couple wins, You got to get some

578
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 2: points up on the board to get some energy and momentum.

579
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, the basin is pretty excited now.

580
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: So and we have all this economic development happening here

581
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 2: that's directly connected to the chips program. Intel's coming here, Mollie.

582
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 2: They're going to build I think it's ten or twenty

583
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 2: billion dollars to put in a new chip campus to

584
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: make chips. The jobs are going to pay like one

585
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year. Han is putting

586
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 2: a new car plan here. We got battery plans going everywhere,

587
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: you know, so like here in Ohio things we are

588
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 2: benefiting directly from those policies that people don't know about.

589
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 2: And I think having shared on the ballot here, he's

590
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: going to be talking about it. We'll be talking about it.

591
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 2: I'm sure the President will be talking about it. So

592
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 2: I think there's really a real chance for us to

593
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 2: flip this here.

594
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: Tim Ryan, so interesting. Thank you so much for joining us.

595
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: I hope you'll come back.

596
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: I would love to come back. Thanks for having me.

597
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: Hi. It's Mollie and I am wildly excited that for

598
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: the first time, Fast Politics, the show you're listening to

599
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: right now, is going to have merch for sale over

600
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com. You can now buy shirts, hats, hoodies,

601
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: and toe bags with our incredible designs. We've heard your cries.

602
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: To spread the word.

603
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,479
Speaker 1: About our podcast and get a tow bag with my

604
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,719
Speaker 1: adorable Leo the rescue puppy on it. And now you

605
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: can grab this merchandise only at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com.

606
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: Thanks for your support. Jake Biddle is a staff writer

607
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: at gristcovering climate impact and author of The Great Displacement.

608
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, Jake.

609
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 2: Biddle, Thank you so much for having me.

610
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: We're here talking about the Great Displacement, climate change, and

611
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: the next American migration. First, I think if we're going

612
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: to talk about this, we got to start by talking

613
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: about Hawaii. We had to talk about the most current

614
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: fire this fire season. Actually fire season hasn't even started.

615
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: How is Hawaii link to climate.

616
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think it's still, like you said, it's

617
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 4: very recent, so it's still a little bit difficult to say.

618
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 2: But I think that we know a few things right.

619
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 4: One is that the fire seems to have been started

620
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 4: by an episode of high winds that was caused by

621
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 4: a tropical storm that sort of passed near Hawaii that

622
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 4: didn't hit it. Then there had been a drought beforehand, right,

623
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 4: so that a lot of the non native grassland species

624
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 4: are any very dry, which made it easier for the

625
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 4: fire to spread. And so even though the ignition itself, like,

626
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 4: we don't know what caused the ignition, and we don't

627
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 4: know to what extent, you know, this specific hurricane and

628
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 4: this specific drought might have been caused by climate change,

629
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 4: so they have to do attribution studies on those things.

630
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 4: We do know that flash routs, right, and severe troup

631
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 4: star wars both seem to be getting worse as the

632
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 4: world gets warmer. So I think that you know, what

633
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 4: you can definitely say is that this is the kind

634
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 4: of thing that we would expect to see more of

635
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 4: all over the world, even though this specific thing, you know,

636
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 4: scientists haven't quite done the studies yet, right, But.

637
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think all the elements here are

638
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: related to climate.

639
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 4: Right, right, Yeah, I think it's like the way that

640
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 4: I would say, right, it is like that there's a

641
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 4: certain set of ingredients, there's a certain like cocktail of

642
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 4: ingredients that climate change seems to make more common, right,

643
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 4: And so this is a genre of eva that we've

644
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 4: seen more and more of as the world gets warmer.

645
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: With WHAYI it's funny because it's like you're seeing already

646
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: the schizophrenia conservatives are finding themselves in right, like you're

647
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: looking at climate change, you're looking at enormous fire stuff

648
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: that we have never I mean, I'm forty four, I

649
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: have never had fire season is a new thing, right,

650
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: Like that was not how it was twenty years ago.

651
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: I think it must be hard even for them. I

652
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: mean they must at some point. And we saw this

653
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: recent Fox News thing where they you know, there was

654
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: an opinion hosted, a whole sort of opinion section, I mean,

655
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,240
Speaker 1: all of Fox News's opinion, but you know, they're covering

656
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: the fire one minute, and then they're doing these long

657
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 1: rants about how climate hysteria is taking over the left.

658
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 4: So I think you're starting to see it has become

659
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 4: very difficult for some conservative politicians to deny that there's

660
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 4: some role human role in the warming of the earth.

661
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 2: Right.

662
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 4: But I do think you still see a lot of

663
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 4: certainly in the media right and then a lot of

664
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 4: elective officials as well, we'll do their best to sort

665
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 4: of pulk holes in the narrative of climate change or

666
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 4: just in the general fear that people have about climate change,

667
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 4: or the sense that like the world is waning rapidly.

668
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 4: That's you beings thought like I think that one example

669
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 4: of this, right is like after there were fires in

670
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 4: Greece earlier this year, it was recorded that initial cause

671
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 4: of the fire was arson, right like, somebody set the fire,

672
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 4: and a lot of conservative mediaulitis were it's not climate change,

673
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 4: it's arson, right like, which is like obviously like an

674
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 4: incredible category error, but it actually it is.

675
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: An unrelated But I think like with gun violence, right.

676
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 4: There's a desire and the conservative media to not give

677
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 4: the left like a good example, right, so they do

678
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 4: anything they can to show that an example of the

679
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 4: problem actually isn't an example of that problem.

680
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 2: Right.

681
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 4: So the fires in Greace on climate change are arson,

682
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 4: a gun violence event isn't because of two lacks gun laws,

683
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 4: It's because of mental health.

684
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 2: Right.

685
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 4: So there's there's a way of like the reality seems

686
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 4: to endorse the liberal position on climate change, and the

687
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 4: conservative try to fight against that wherever they can.

688
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: Right, Let's talk about your book, Let's talk about migration.

689
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: Let's talk about what you're seeing and why did you

690
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: decide to write this book? What was going on in

691
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:57,919
Speaker 1: your brain?

692
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I thought that it's when I started working

693
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 4: in the book. This was like in early twenty twenty,

694
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 4: it seemed that a lot of people were thinking, a

695
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 4: lot of people in the United States were thinking about

696
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 4: climate change is something that happens either you know, very

697
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 4: far away, like in Southeast Asia or Central Anaca, or

698
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 4: it's going to happen in the US, but not yet.

699
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 4: You know, maybe in a couple of decades it's going

700
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 4: to be here for us. And by the time of

701
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 4: the book came out, I actually think that it started

702
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 4: to change. But the reason why I wanted to write

703
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 4: the book was to show people that, you know, actually,

704
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 4: already in the United States and tens of thousands of

705
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,919
Speaker 4: people had lost their homes to climate disasters, had never

706
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 4: made it back to their original homes, and they were

707
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 4: already moving to some extent in an attempt to escape risk,

708
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 4: but also just in the sort of chaotic process of

709
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 4: getting bounced around and kicked out of homes and thrown

710
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 4: into new homes by these disasters. I wanted to show

711
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 4: that because I thought that media coverage of disasters like

712
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 4: wildfires and hurricanes tended to end, you know, right after

713
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 4: the wildfire ended, and I wanted to show that there

714
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 4: was a really long process of displacement and relocation going

715
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 4: on that didn't tend to make it into you know,

716
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 4: cable news segments or things like that.

717
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about that because this relates

718
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: to a sort of underreported but really important story about Florida,

719
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: Everyone's favorite state that's going to be underwater.

720
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 2: That's where I'm from.

721
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 1: By the way, I apologize. Can you talk a little

722
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: bit about what is happening there with insurance?

723
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, this is a really important point. So the

724
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 4: climate change, it doesn't just cause physical damage to property

725
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 4: when there's a hurricane or that certainly happened in Slower

726
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 4: last year. It also stresses like pre existing markets and

727
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 4: systems of distributing risks. So the housing market, you know,

728
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 4: in places that's been hit pretty hard, sometimes home values

729
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 4: will take a dip. And then in the insurance market

730
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 4: in Florida, like the cost of responding to these disasters

731
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 4: and paying out claims on insurance has gotten so high

732
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 4: that a lot of insurers have gone under, right, They've collapse,

733
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 4: and the market can no longer allocate all that risk efficiently.

734
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 4: So what's happening like the two things. Right, Costs are

735
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 4: going up quite a bit for almost everybody, and the

736
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 4: state legislature which sort of a set of sort of

737
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 4: pawns of the Santists, they basically do whatever he asked

738
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 4: them to do. Has done a bunch of things to

739
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 4: try to stabilize this market, right, So in effect they've

740
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 4: come close to socializing it, right, Like they've injected a

741
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 4: lot of public support into the market. But basically it's

742
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 4: become impossible to ensure all the property that's at risk

743
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 4: from hurricanes at Florida, that there's just too many people

744
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 4: living in places that are too vulnerable, and so a

745
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 4: lot of homeowners at the lower end of the income

746
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 4: scale are now finding that it's very difficult for them

747
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 4: to afford the cost of insurance which they.

748
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 2: Need in order to keep the homes that they have, right.

749
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: And I think like one of the huge scandals of

750
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: our time, which has been also underreported, is there is

751
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 1: a government backstop to a lot of this insurance that

752
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: benefits the wealth. Can you talk about that, right?

753
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, So there's this thing called the National Flood Insurance Programs.

754
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 4: Always very confusing, but like wind damage from hurricanes is

755
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 4: covered by the private insurance market, but flood damage, like

756
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 4: water is covered by a cteral program. Because it's like

757
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 4: almost impossible for insurers to make a profit by selling

758
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 4: flood insurance, so the federal government does it. And this

759
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 4: is kind of it's a really really broken system. Like

760
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 4: the price setting is just very inefficient, and it subsidizes, Yes,

761
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 4: it's subsidized because like Congress mandated that it be quote

762
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 4: unquote affordable. It's not affordable to be able at the

763
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 4: lower end of the income scale, but for people at

764
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 4: the upper end of the income scale, like people who

765
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 4: have beachfront mansions in Florida, it's really cheaper than it

766
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 4: should be. Right, So basically what's happening is that the

767
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 4: taxpayers are subsidizing the cost of rebuilding homes on the

768
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 4: water front of Florida.

769
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 2: Over and over and over again.

770
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 4: And it's essentially like a it's an unintended consequence of

771
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 4: this law. It just hasn't worked out the way that

772
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 4: the frameworks thought that it would. The fretwast is the

773
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,919
Speaker 4: law out of the constitution, and just like no one's

774
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 4: willing to fix it, And what you have is like

775
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 4: we've essentially bailed out people who live on these waterfronts

776
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 4: of Florida and other parts of the country over and

777
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 4: over and over again, and discouraged them. Yes, and the

778
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 4: Hamptons too.

779
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: You know, these are rich people who live on the

780
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: waterfront are getting a government handout.

781
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean twenty twelve when Congress actually they tried

782
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 4: to fix it, and there was such a backlash from hangers,

783
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 4: mostly in New Jersey and New York State, that they

784
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 4: undid it. Two years later they said, I'm actually never.

785
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: Mind, which is exactly. One of the fundamental problems with

786
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,959
Speaker 1: some of this climate legislation is that we're throwing good

787
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: money after bad, right, Like, this is money that should

788
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: be going to you know, ev market or you know

789
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: chargers or solar panels, and not to rebuilding rich people's

790
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: houses when they're too close to the ocean.

791
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly it.

792
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 4: I mean, I think that the problem is that historically

793
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 4: people who live in vulnerable areas haven't borne the costs

794
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 4: that they were incurring.

795
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: Right.

796
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 4: So another example is in California, right, like the US

797
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 4: Forest Service and cal Fire those are taxpayer funded departments.

798
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 4: They front the cost of putting out the fires in

799
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 4: vulnerable areas, so they're essentially subsidizing the cost of living

800
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 4: in very vulnerable parts of the state, right, and so

801
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 4: making people bear the cost that they are incurring is

802
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,240
Speaker 4: it's very unpopular, right because in a lot of cases,

803
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 4: people who live in these places have a lot of

804
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 4: political cloud but also because a lot of them didn't

805
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 4: exactly know how much risk they or incurring.

806
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 2: So it's it's very difficult process of shifting.

807
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 4: That risk away from the general taxpayer, aren't to the

808
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 4: people who are actually incurring it by living where they do.

809
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, so, I mean, and I want to pull out

810
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: for a minute with this idea and talk about what

811
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: it means. So what we're seeing this is this Floridas

812
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: or even just coastal wherever, coastal New York, coastal, the

813
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: Hampton's coastal New Jersey. This is climate change making places

814
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: that used to be safe to live unsafe to live.

815
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 1: Talk to me about what that looks like in the

816
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: rest of the world.

817
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, I think in the rest of the world

818
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 4: it's a much more advanced process.

819
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 2: Right.

820
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 4: So, after big hurricanes like in Nicaraguan, Honduras, like recent

821
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 4: in Guatemala like recently seen like entire villages regions of

822
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 4: the country be populated not only because the housing was destroyed, right,

823
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 4: but because these are primarily agricultural communities and it's impossible

824
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 4: to grow crops, find your whole town is underwater, like

825
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 4: in Pakistan last year is how like almost a third

826
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 4: of the country was underwater, and the same the ingredients

827
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,919
Speaker 4: of displacement are the same, right, Like, you lose your home,

828
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 4: you don't have the financial ability to build it back,

829
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 4: then you have to go somewhere else. In the United States,

830
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 4: because the housing market is so much more rigid, credits

831
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 4: more available, people don't tend to end up in you know,

832
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 4: massive displacement camps, so they don't tend to like flock

833
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 4: to cities by the thousands and looking for some kind

834
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 4: of refuge.

835
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: Can we just stop for a second. I just want

836
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: to ask you a question about this. Could that actually

837
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: lead to an American economic disaster the way that it

838
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: did for us with the cheap mortgages in two thousand

839
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:09,439
Speaker 1: and eight.

840
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a really really good question. I think not

841
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 4: to the same degree. Like I don't think that you

842
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 4: could see a global financial contagion, but there's certainly the

843
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 4: chance that like smaller and more regionally concentrated baranks and

844
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 4: lenders that that are more exposed to this would see

845
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,280
Speaker 4: like many of them could go under and like certainly

846
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 4: a lot of individual homeowners if there were like a

847
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 4: sudden drop in the value, like let's say a hurricane hits, right,

848
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,359
Speaker 4: and then suddenly everyone's like, oh my god, I don't

849
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 4: want to live there, like that was that was the

850
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 4: last straw, like home values of plumber and people would

851
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 4: be underwater on their mortage, just like millions of people potentially,

852
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 4: and that would be a huge, like a systemic financial

853
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 4: problem for the United States. But I don't know that

854
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 4: it would lead to like a global recession the way

855
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 4: that the two does eight. But in part because they've

856
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 4: tried to put safeguards against that kind of thing, like

857
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 4: the media as they might have been, they might work

858
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 4: in that.

859
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: Right, And I mean, it's just a weird side question,

860
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: But continue on talking about what does a global migration

861
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: look like?

862
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah?

863
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 4: So I think I mean that probably a common misconception

864
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 4: rate is that all the people who get displaced in

865
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 4: you know, a famine event and Somalia, right or a

866
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 4: flood impact stuff, they all go to the developed world.

867
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 4: I mean, the vast majority of climate driven migration happens

868
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 4: within an individual country, like it's people leaving flooded villages

869
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,240
Speaker 4: and heading to major cities, right and trying to find

870
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 4: some way to adapt in that way.

871
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 2: But I think that you know, over time.

872
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 4: As this displacement that Coadu's you know, pronic, you probably

873
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 4: will see growing trends of migration from the developing world

874
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 4: to the developed world. In fact, like you could argue

875
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,240
Speaker 4: it's already happened because a lot of migration to Europe

876
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 4: has been driven by droughts and famines. A lot of

877
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 4: migration to the United States, like in nineteen ninety eight,

878
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 4: Hurricane Mitch was like the main reason why there was

879
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 4: a ton of migration feminl Salvador. But like I think,

880
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 4: the big question that I have, I don't know what

881
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 4: the answer to it is is whether this migration driven

882
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 4: my climate change will be understood in the developed world

883
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 4: as climate migration right, as a climate justice issue, or

884
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 4: whether it will continue to be routed through the politics

885
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 4: of immigration and asylum, which is what happens now.

886
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: It's so funny because I think about for such a

887
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: long time, my husband and I would always say like, well,

888
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 1: eventually the science will be undeniable, and what we saw

889
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: with the pandemic is actually they you know, they'll be

890
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: taking the horse to warmer. Even when the science is undeniable,

891
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 1: there will be no moment where they will come where

892
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,919
Speaker 1: the right. And that means, you know, all of those

893
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: senators who are making decisions for all of us and

894
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,399
Speaker 1: congress people and you know Donald Trump will ever sort

895
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 1: of come to their senses. So it's really going to

896
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,240
Speaker 1: be a situation that fifty two percent of the American

897
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: population is going to have to deal with.

898
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 4: It's become clear right that there's no way to make

899
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 4: a scientific argument that's convincing, like in the political arena, right,

900
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 4: and if you think about it, like climate change is

901
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 4: one of the only issues where that's like the main

902
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 4: way we tried to make the argument, right, Like nobody

903
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 4: talks about racial inequality or like like those are like

904
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 4: you make moral arguments right about like what's the right

905
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 4: way to organize a society. That's not the way we've done.

906
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 4: The climate change is still like scientific facts show this,

907
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 4: and so you should do that. I think that like

908
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 4: the primary persuasive argument will probably end up being an

909
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 4: economic one, right, Like even a Republican politician likes to

910
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 4: show that they built a giant new levee in their town.

911
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 4: They want to stand there with the golden shovel. They

912
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 4: also want to show, hey, there's a big EV battery

913
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 4: factory in my town, Like, look, it got two thousand

914
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 4: new jobs one just hoping in Marjorie Taylor Green's district,

915
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 4: like she even praised it, right Like, so it's like

916
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 4: that's the argument that's going to make the difference. And

917
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 4: I think that like the Inflation Reduction Act and Restarture Bill,

918
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 4: like you'll see that Republicans don't want to run away

919
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 4: from the results of that, even though they didn't vote

920
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 4: for it. That's fine, I guess, right, Like the bill

921
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 4: was passed without Republican support. Yeah, yeah, like that's that's

922
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 4: good enough as long as they don't stand in the

923
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 4: in the doorway of the factory prevention from being built,

924
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 4: Like it's we still get a little farther toward decarbonization.

925
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 4: But yeah, I don't know that there's any way of

926
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,879
Speaker 4: penetrating the veil of ignorance that's around the conservative women

927
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 4: on the issue of climate science, Like it just doesn't

928
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 4: seem just doesn't seem like it's been effective any of

929
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 4: the scientific communication strategies that they've all failed, right, So

930
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 4: I don't know.

931
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: I always think of Texas as one of the most

932
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: fucked up states. But Texas had this summer of clean energy.

933
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean they yeah, I mean. And again,

934
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,879
Speaker 4: it's like it's an economic argument, right, like for any

935
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 4: number of reasons, right, like the decline and cost of photovoltaics,

936
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 4: and just the fact that Texas is like the it's

937
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 4: a signing place obviously, and it's also like it's been

938
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 4: called like Saudi Arabia of.

939
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 2: Wind right.

940
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 4: Insane, Like it's very very cheap to produce renewable power there.

941
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 4: And so you know, even a Republican politician they might

942
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 4: have a cultural or a stated cultural opposition to those

943
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 4: forms of power generation, they're not going to sit there

944
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 4: and say, I would really like my constituents to pay

945
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 4: more and their energy bills. They already pay a lot, right, Like,

946
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 4: I'm not going to make it any worse. So because

947
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 4: it's in many ways deregulated, right, Like there's nothing to

948
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 4: stop people from building those facilities, plugging them into the grid,

949
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 4: and then people save money on their power built right. So,

950
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 4: like I think politicians in Texas have they've sort of

951
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 4: said and threatened that they're going to stop this transition

952
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 4: way from fossil fuels. They certainly want to protect fossil

953
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 4: fuel interests, but there is nothing they can really do

954
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 4: short of, like you know, regulating the market altogether to

955
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 4: stop clean energy from being built out in places where

956
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 4: it's advantageous. And now the cost has fallen far enough

957
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 4: like that ball is already rolling right that that's not

958
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 4: the result of the inflation reduction. Ract that's just because

959
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 4: clean energy is good business. And as much as options

960
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,280
Speaker 4: like phossip fhels, they also like good business.

961
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 2: I guess well.

962
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: Also, the grid is very unstable, and during last year

963
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 1: we saw that it's actually it can fail, and so

964
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 1: you know, if it's a choice between green power and

965
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 1: no power, these guys are going to go for it.

966
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: It is that fundamental, incredible and strange disconnect where you have.

967
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: So I just have like one more question, because we're

968
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: almost out of time. One of my real interests is desalinization.

969
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: Why is America not further along with that. Israel has

970
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,800
Speaker 1: been a country that has a lot of very complicated

971
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: stuff going on, but has been very good about using that.

972
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 4: There's a really really interesting debate going on among like

973
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 4: water experts right now about the way out of the

974
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 4: Western water crisis, right, And it certainly seems like even

975
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 4: though desalination is desalinization, I actould know which one of them.

976
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 2: People see both.

977
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:49,760
Speaker 4: Even though desalinization is it can be really expensive. And

978
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,359
Speaker 4: there's also concerns people from who live nearby wall often

979
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 4: our lives, that the plants themselves are polluting. Like it

980
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 4: certainly seems like in a targeted way, it could be

981
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 4: very ivent heges for certain communities.

982
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 3: Right.

983
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 4: So, they've talked about it in southern California, they've moved

984
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 4: along with a couple of them. Arizona really wants to

985
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 4: build one in Mexico and then remove some SLF from

986
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 4: water and import it or just trade it on the

987
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:12,439
Speaker 4: Colorado River.

988
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 2: I think that the reason why you haven't seen.

989
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 4: More of it is because right now it's very, very

990
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 4: difficult to build large infrastructure projects of any kind, especially

991
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 4: in the water arena, Like we built a ton of

992
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 4: dams and stuff in the fifties and sixties that we

993
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 4: haven't done that a lot since. And I think that

994
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 4: a lot of jurisdictions have found that it's actually just

995
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 4: as easy to conserve water, like just to use less

996
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 4: as it is to build facilities to get more so

997
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 4: like Las Vegas, for instance, has almost doubled in size

998
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 4: since two thousand, and they actually used less water now

999
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 4: than they did in two thousand because they took out

1000
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,240
Speaker 4: all the turf and stuff like they're just done found

1001
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 4: a lot of efficiencies. So I think that anybody who

1002
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 4: is like an expround water would tell you that there's

1003
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 4: no one solution, and detounization is probably an item on

1004
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 4: the menu, right. But I think that so far it's

1005
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 4: been difficult to build those plants for like all kinds

1006
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:02,320
Speaker 4: of permanent and political opposition.

1007
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 1: Raise ends so interesting, Jake, I hope this wasn't too annoying,

1008
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 1: but you know, I had all these climate questions that

1009
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 1: I saved up, you know, in my head, and I

1010
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:18,280
Speaker 1: feel like it's the summer and our country is our country,

1011
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: and the rest of the world is burning again, and

1012
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 1: we have to just cover this as much as possible.

1013
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 1: So thank you.

1014
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it certainly seems like it's out of favorite pitch

1015
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 2: right now. Thank you.

1016
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 1: The moment, ou Jesse Cannon, Mallie jung Fest.

1017
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 2: These Trump lawyers, woo, they've gotten themselves in some trouble.

1018
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 2: What are you seeing here?

1019
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 1: So this is incredible. Trump Allys attempted to access voting

1020
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: systems after the twenty twenty election as part of a

1021
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 1: broader push to produce evidence that could back up the

1022
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 1: former president's baseless claim of widespread fraud. These guys, I

1023
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 1: just the vast the best. I am without speech except

1024
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: to say that these guys, this is not what lawyers

1025
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: are supposed to do and this is real fucking crimey.

1026
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 1: We call them the Gang that couldn't crimes trade for

1027
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: a reason. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics.

1028
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the

1029
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 1: best minds in politics makes sense of all this chaos.

1030
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to

1031
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,240
Speaker 1: a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks

1032
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 1: for listening.