1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samitha, and welcome to stuff 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: I've never told you protection to I heart radio. So 3 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: we have another female first classic episode that we want 4 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: to run in this month of March, the months of 5 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: women's history. And although again we feel like we're always 6 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: working in that realm, I was gonna say, if you 7 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: don't realize we talked about women, women's issues and women 8 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: around the world, you must be new here and welcome. 9 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: Welcome if you enjoy it. We got on wide earth 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: of content for YouTube. We cover a lot of topics. 11 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: I was trying to explain the show to somebody the 12 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: other day and I was like, wow, we really go 13 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 1: all over the place. I mean yeah, when I'm pointing 14 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,319 Speaker 1: at educational stuff, I'm like, well, you go to here, here, 15 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: and here if you want to try to put that 16 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: on your classroom stuff. All right, all right, Oh goodness, 17 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: that's a task I don't want to undertake right now. 18 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: But one day I was at the beginning of the 19 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: pandemic working on playlists of ways that people could like 20 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: find different playlists like if you're like into this thing 21 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: or if you're into this thing. Uh, and then I 22 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: never completed it. I did I did, and for this 23 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: female first, Eaves brought us the story of Mary Sea Coal, 24 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: which I as with so many things, she wrought us like, 25 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: I'm so frustrated. I've never heard the story before. It 26 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: was definitely a story we should tell more often, that 27 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 1: people should learn about at a young age, and it's 28 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: one because we are in a pandemic and we have 29 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: been for two years. This story has come up a 30 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: lot in my mind and a lot of conversation with 31 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: my friends and especially our friend Marissa has been on 32 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: the show, who is a nurse, and I'll so we'll 33 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: just bring her up pretty frequently. And I'm it makes 34 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:53,919 Speaker 1: me happy that the story is spreading, but we need, 35 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: we need to get the word out even more. Yes, yes, 36 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: so please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie 37 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: and Samantha and welcome to Stephane Never told you Protection 38 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. And it's time today for another 39 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: female first, which means we are joined by our good 40 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: friend and co worker Eves Y. Hey, y'all, Hi, how 41 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: how are you? We haven't seen you in a while. 42 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 1: We're in our virtual studios and you have moved right, 43 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: I have moved. Um, it's been a wild ride so 44 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: you know, if I sound any different, that's why I 45 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: am in a new room. I have a new recording 46 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: set up here. But um, I'm lucky to have moved. 47 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: I can't complain that I'm in a place where I 48 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: can stay and I can sleep, and I have shelter 49 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: over my head, so all is well in that regard. 50 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: Of course, there's a lot more going on in the world, 51 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: and I'm also involved in that world. But the small 52 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: container of a new home feels pretty nice. I like it. 53 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: There's sort of a running joke during pandemic times when 54 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: people are interviewed, um are on these kinds of things, 55 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: they always have books behind them because it's, you know, 56 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: showing off that you're smart, or it's just it looks 57 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: nice and you have books behind you, and so do I. 58 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: But yours look a much more clean than mind you, 59 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: for someone who has just moved, and I have been 60 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: here for several years. In mys like it's gonna topple a. 61 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: Don't give me too much credit because the only thing 62 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: you see is the books. And the books are one 63 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: of the first things that I organized, because it was 64 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: so easy to just say, Okay, here's a box of books. 65 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: Put it on the shelf, so like that's in order 66 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: and it looks nice, but you know that's order a 67 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: monkey chaos. It's just really satisfying to get your books 68 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: out and were like putting it all in order how 69 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: you want to do it, whether it's like aesthetically or alphabetically, 70 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: and then you're like, oh, look I've got books. Yeah, 71 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: so I promise you is not about me looking smart smarter? 72 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: Oh yes, sure, just to put that out there. My 73 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: ego has nothing to do with the books behind me. Sure. Sure. 74 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: It is a very nice frame. I used to do 75 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: a lot of videos, so I appreciate there's books on 76 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 1: one side kind of offset. And then you've got your microphone. 77 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, I didn't expect a composition compliment, but 78 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 1: I'm always always ready with that. You know what, Samantha, 79 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,359 Speaker 1: you look good too. You gotta blur. She's got the 80 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: skype blur going. I'm just the blur. I don't. I 81 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: don't actually want you to see what's behind me, because 82 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: there's nothing about behind me other than maybe some concerned 83 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: about like how are you living right now, Samantha? What 84 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: is wrong with you? So I just blur it all 85 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: out and all you can see is color. Hopefully I 86 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: stand out in that brightness that might say something about 87 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: your how you deal with emotions. Yes, I just want 88 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: to blow it out. I'm not trying to get to 89 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: in depth. I was. You're getting pretty deep right now. 90 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: I know. I know, well it was my job for 91 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: a while. Um. I know, listeners know I'm very annoying 92 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: when it comes to like fonts and transitions and movies composition. 93 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: So I gotta let it out sometimes I feel you 94 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: like I'm mad at it, um and it kind of. 95 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: Books is a good segue into the person we're talking 96 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: about today. Actually, so can you tell us who did 97 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: you bring? Yes, true books is a good segue. Today 98 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: we'll be talking about Mary se Cole, who has a 99 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: very very interesting history and biography. So I brought her 100 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: to the table today because her autobiography has been considered 101 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 1: the first one that was written by a black woman 102 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: in Britain. But there is a huge asterisk on that. 103 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and say the name of the autobiograph, 104 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: which is the Wonderful Adventures of Mrs s Cole in 105 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: many Lands, which is a great like a great title. Um. 106 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: As a person who's an aspiring adventurer, and like just 107 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: loves the idea of travel, and there are so much 108 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: culture and history and just social implications that are wrapped 109 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: up in travel based on like who had access to 110 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: actually be able to travel. UM was super interested in, 111 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: you know, the outward appearance of like who she was. UM. 112 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, like I said, there's a huge asterisk on 113 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: this one because of the controversy that surrounds the truth 114 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: of her autobiography and what actually happened in her story. UM. 115 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: So there's a lot we'll get into in that respect. UM. 116 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: And I think that ties in well to the thing 117 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: that we usually say in these conversations, which is the 118 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: disclaimer around what a first is, what a first means. 119 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: And in Mary's c case, a lot of people wouldn't 120 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: even say that it's the first, um, because of her 121 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: history and her ancestry, you know, depending on what side 122 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: you talked to in this debate. UM. But yeah, I 123 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: don't want to get to ahead of myself, but I'll 124 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: just say that I just think it's a great opportunity 125 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: to talk about what a first actually means, you know, 126 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: what it means to have sorts of debates like this 127 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: when it comes to the historical record and biographies. Yeah, 128 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: I don't want to go I won't go too too 129 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: deep into that yet. I think I need to actually 130 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: get into her story first. I love the title. I 131 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: think that's the first thing. I was like, Oh my gosh, 132 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: this sname steam so fantastical. But yeah, An, so you're 133 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: reading more about it. I was like, Oh, that's a 134 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: lot of intensity in that. Yeah, I was. I've been 135 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: reading it on and off the book since you suggested 136 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: it us, and I love, like, not even the chapter titles, 137 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: but at least from the source I was reading it. 138 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: Um had like sub chapter titles of what happens in 139 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: the book, and they're excellent, and you know, I don't 140 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: know how much of it's true or not, but every 141 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: king I was like, this woman did so much right, right, 142 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: oh man traveled everywhere. Yeah, the chapter titles are like 143 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: very descriptive of what happened in her travels, um so. 144 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: And and then there are also a lot of questionable fiction. 145 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: There's a lot of questionable diction in the way that 146 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: she refers to people and refers to herself. Um. Yeah. 147 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: So it's one of those things like well, you know, 148 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: she gets to tell her own story, So there's the 149 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:40,719 Speaker 1: line between she's telling her own story and what actually happened, UM, 150 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: and the bias that can come in in a person's 151 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: own story, but also the truth of a person's own 152 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: story that's coming from their own voice. UM. Yeah. So 153 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: on that note, I guess I could say that she's been, 154 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: you know, kind of pit it in the same category 155 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: as Florence Nightingale. And throughout the book. The debate that 156 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: you know that has come up in terms of her 157 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 1: biography is that she never called herself black. So going 158 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:09,839 Speaker 1: back to what I said, she's considered to have written 159 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: the first autobiography by a black woman, Well, she never 160 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: called herself black. She called herself creole, and she had 161 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: a mixed race ancestry. And I'm sure that you read 162 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: this because you were reading the autobiography Annie. But she 163 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: says in it in one place, I have good Scotch 164 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: blood coursing in my veins, and that comes near the 165 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: beginning of it. So she's very clear about you know, 166 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: her position on this. From the very beginning. She would 167 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: describe herself as yellow um as she was fair complexioned 168 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,719 Speaker 1: and um, she had a white father and a mother 169 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: who was of mixed race. Ancestry as well, whom she 170 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: called a creole as well. So um, there were also 171 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: descriptions in the book of black people that were she 172 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: specifically like there are parts where she says something like, 173 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 1: while the good for nothing black cooks, instead of lending 174 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 1: me their a would standby and laugh with all their teeth. 175 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: I just want to call in here that obviously I'm 176 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: using these quotes out of context. So if you would 177 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: like to read the book yourself, of that would be 178 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: great to do so you can see the lines that 179 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: come around these, because I can't quote the whole book verbatim. Um, 180 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: but there are a lot of instances where she others 181 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: people and it's sort of clear that she's not considering 182 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: them to be within the same group as her. Um. 183 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: But there are also instances in the book where she 184 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: seems to be recognizing racial discrimination that she faced and 185 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: commenting on that, and commenting on issues like slavery, even 186 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: though that didn't happen so much. But all of that said, 187 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: it is just I would love to preface the conversation 188 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: of the conversations that are around her, of all the 189 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: myths and the myth making that has been happening, and 190 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: quote unquote campaigns around what her legacy should look like 191 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: and what people who are supporters of Florence Nightingale want 192 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: her legacy to be about. So just that's just a preface. 193 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: We could actually talk about her life and her autobiography now, yeah, yeah, 194 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: and that's a great preference. And um, I know we'll 195 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: get to this probably at the end, but there has 196 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: been sort of a very recent um campaign, as you say, 197 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,839 Speaker 1: are just sort of recognizing of Mary s Cole and 198 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: a lot of conversations around that are happening right now. 199 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: So yeah, and always there are always conversations about, Okay, 200 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 1: what were the missing or identified? Are ones that are 201 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: legacies that were pushed to the bottom because of a 202 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: person's race because of Mary seacol situation. Was a black woman, 203 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: which is a conversation that's going around, Well, was her 204 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: history suppressed or hidden because she was a black woman 205 00:11:54,960 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: working within this imperialist space that was Britain and bringing 206 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: her history backed up in order to recognize that. And 207 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: on the other hand, people just crediting her saying that 208 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: you know, she was three quarters white. I'll just start 209 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: by saying that she was born in Kingston, Jamaica in 210 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: eighteen o five, so her mother lived there. Her father 211 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: was white. He was from Scotland. There's a little bit 212 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: of discrepancy over what his profession actually or his occupation 213 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: actually was. He's been said that he was an officer 214 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: in the British Army, but there are conversations around who 215 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: he actually was. But he was white um. And then 216 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 1: there was her mother, who was, like I said earlier, 217 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: of mixed rass ancestry um and Mary called her mother 218 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 1: Creole like her. She supposedly learned her nursing and all 219 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: her business skills from her mother, who ran a boarding 220 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: house in Jamaica which was called Blundell Hall. And so 221 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: yellow fever was like a common disease in the Caribbean 222 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: at the time. And her mother probably learned the herbal 223 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: practices that she practiced with on people, and she used 224 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: on people from enslaved women, who in turn learned from 225 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: their ancestors. So there was that passing down of herbal 226 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: medicinal knowledge um. And she married Secol. Herself considered, like 227 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: I said earlier, consider herself Creole in British rather than Black. 228 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: And in her autobiography she didn't talk much about the 229 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: socio political the whole climate that was happening around her 230 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: um as she was living and working in Jamaica, like 231 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: the uprising things that were happening that enslaved people were organizing, 232 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: or the abolition of the slave trade in slavery which 233 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: happened in the early eighteen hundreds. But she was aware 234 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: of the situation with slavery in the US, and the 235 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: um mentioned the people who were escaping and commending them. 236 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: So when she was born, and just for us to 237 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: talk about the climate, at the time she was born, 238 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: slavery was still in practice in Jamaica, and in fact, 239 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: enslaved people outnumbered white people greatly. On in Jamaica, there 240 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: were some free people and then there were creoles on 241 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: the island as well, people of mixed rights ancestry. And 242 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: Mary herself was born free, and she had this pride 243 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: to be a British subject, and she was committed to 244 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: the idea of empire. She really wanted to go to 245 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: London when she was a child, and she did end 246 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: up doing that for the first time somewhere early in 247 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: her life. And she's pretty she's pretty uh, what is it. 248 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: Nebulous is the word. She's pretty vague about the details 249 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: of her early life in her autobiography. She kind of 250 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: breezes through those points, like I'm trying to remember. What 251 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: she said in her autobiography was something like, we don't 252 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: need to mention my age, Like she she kind of 253 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: didn't want her age to come up when she was 254 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: talking about when she went to London. Yes, she even 255 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: says something like, give me a widow, give me that right. 256 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: Not it was very uh, very yeah it was. She 257 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: didn't want it to be said, but um, it was 258 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: in her earlier years when she went to London. She 259 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: ended up going there for some time and then she left. Um. Oh, 260 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: but I will mention that there was a part where 261 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: she says she was teased or made fun of because 262 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: of her complexion, along with a companion who was there 263 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: with her, who she said was a little bit darker 264 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: than her. Specifically, she said, I am only a little brown, 265 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: a few shades duskier than the brunettes whom you all 266 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: admire so much. But my companion was very dark and 267 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: affair if I can apply the term to her subject 268 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: for their rude wit so um. She talks about that experience. Um. 269 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: When she went to London a year later, she went 270 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: back to London, UM. And then she brought back with 271 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: her a bunch of West Indian spices and homemade jams, 272 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: and she stayed there for a few years. This time 273 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: so she spent a lot of her earlier years traveling 274 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: in the Caribbean and Central America, which, as I said earlier, 275 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: it means that she had access to be able to 276 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: travel to all those different places. UM. And she ran 277 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: and taverns, and she ran boarding houses and along the 278 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: way and learned about medicine UM. And she leaves out 279 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: a lot of detail in the autobiography, especially of those 280 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: first years. She details more of her later years in 281 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: the autobiography, but there, even with the details that are 282 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: there are often dubious UM and have been called into 283 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: question after it was after the autobiography was published. So 284 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: the detailed chronology of her life and exactly how she 285 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: made a living at this time and this time and 286 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: all the business ventors that she was in and what 287 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: she actually sold, what she actually did UM has been 288 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: called into question. But in her travel she did sell fugus, 289 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: and she did help her mother and ran boarding houses 290 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: and worked with her brother, and there's a lot of 291 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: business ventus and back and forth, one of things that 292 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: she sold that she was clearly involved in. So yeah, 293 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: I was trying to do it timeline before this, and 294 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: I just got so confused and gave up and essentially 295 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: came to the conclusion she traveled a lot. Yeah, and 296 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: did a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah, that's basically like, yeah, 297 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: I think putting together like first it was this and 298 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: then she went to this place, and then she went 299 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: to this place. Is it would be very hard to 300 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: do based on like because there are a lot of 301 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: things that she said in her own autobiography, the things 302 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: that other people said about her, quotes about her from 303 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: military personnel, and then the historians who have done work 304 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 1: on her and um, yeah, but she definitely did travel 305 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 1: a lot, and she was in Central America, she was 306 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: in England, and she she traveled. During her travel, she 307 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: did tend to people and did sell provisions. So she 308 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: did also Mary n One Sea Cole in eighteen thirty six. 309 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: He died not long after. He died in eighteen forty four, 310 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: and around the same time, like during these years, she 311 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: had some things happened to her, like her mother also died. 312 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: Her home and a boarding house caught on fire. Um, 313 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: and she was able to bring back up the boarding 314 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: house bundle Hall and was up and running with success 315 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: within a few years. But here's you know, she's still 316 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: traveling during this time. So in eighteen fifty she joined 317 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: her brother in present day Panama, and Panama at the 318 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: time saw a lot of travelers who were on their 319 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: way to the California Gold Rush, and she went there 320 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: at the time. Before leaving, she had She talks about 321 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 1: in the book how she had all this clothing and 322 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: foods made, and all these jams and all the sausages. 323 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm making up sausages. I can't remember 324 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 1: all the foods, she says she had, but she had 325 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: a bunch of foods and was preparing things. And Panama, 326 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: she sold supplies to travelers and she ran a boarding 327 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: house there where she served as a doctress, and that's 328 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: what she called herself. She didn't call herself a nurse. Um. 329 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: So she practiced in herbal medicine and followed in the 330 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: same path as her mom and actually talks in the book, 331 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: or says in the book how she admired her mom. 332 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: I can't remember the specific language that she used, but 333 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: she looked up to her mom and says that she 334 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: wanted to follow in her path and that was important 335 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: to her. Yeah, yeah, I think I when I was 336 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: putting together her story, and you know, you start with 337 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: her mom was a respected had this boarding house was respected. 338 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: I don't know that she would use the word doctress. 339 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: But in medicine, practice medicine, and she um er Segel 340 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: kind of followed in those same steps. She did those 341 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: same things. Yeah, she did. And she got a reputation 342 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: for helping people, um who got in cholera. She says. 343 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,719 Speaker 1: In the book, she talks about a few of her 344 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: medicinal recipes, not too many of them, but she talks 345 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: about giving them water in which cinnamon had been boiled. Um. 346 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: She talks about to use mercury and mustard, poultices and plaster. 347 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: But there's not a whole bunch that's known about the 348 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: exact recipes that she used for her remedies. UM. And 349 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: she also treated people who were her in fights. And 350 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: while she was in Panama, she opened a place called 351 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 1: the British Hotel, which actually served as a restaurant. And 352 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 1: she also around this time when she was in Central America, 353 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: ran a woman only hotel and just what I put 354 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: in here because I found it really interesting. On the 355 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 1: other podcast, Dad Your Savior, we just did an episode 356 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: on cinnamon. It was a classic and mustard, and those 357 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: both have been used medicinally historically, so I personally found 358 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: that very interesting. Nice. Yeah, um uh, there's a whole 359 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: conversation about the the practices and the medicines that she 360 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: actually used on people and her being discredited because of 361 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: the practices that she used on people and she didn't 362 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: have any formal nursing training, um, and things like that 363 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: that we'll get into later. But um, there are a 364 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 1: few more um things that she used that are listed 365 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: in the book as well, um, that you could look up. Yeah, 366 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: so it's super interesting. Mustard oil, mustard the essential oil, 367 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: and the mustard being the thing that's helping and yeah, 368 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: imagine you you know way more about that than I 369 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: do anything that you just Yeah, it was. It was 370 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: really interesting because it's not one of those things. Mustard 371 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: is not something that comes to the forefront of my mind. 372 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: And I've been doing a food show for a while 373 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: and almost everything was used medicinally, um at some point, 374 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: and mustard as one that was like, huh, because it 375 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: lasted for a long time. People used mustard medicinally pretty 376 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: like up into the eight nine hundreds. Yeah, I um, 377 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 1: this really is unrelated to the show at all, but 378 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: I UM, I was looking up mustard essential oil for 379 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: unrelated reason why it had nothing to do with Mary 380 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: Sea coal. Um, just because I was trying to figure 381 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: out I one to make it inhaler that like has 382 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: properties like what Sabby does for like the signing is clearing, 383 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: and um figure that like mustard maybe helpful and realizing 384 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,959 Speaker 1: that it was like toxic in some ways. But anyway, 385 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: that's like a whole aside um. But yeah, really interesting. 386 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:23,679 Speaker 1: Um So yeah, anyway back to the story. I like this, 387 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 1: keep talking about all you should look into a Sabby. 388 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: There was Sabby smoke detector. Things really m with Sabby 389 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: smoke detector. What is that? Well, I think it's for 390 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: if if you have trouble hearing, can't hear the Sabby smell, okay, 391 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: and kind of that feel, Um, we'll wake you up 392 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: and you know, because you can't hear the alarm, then 393 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: you'll have that going on. This was Sabby was an 394 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: episode we did like three years ago, So this is 395 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: all very rusty dusty in the back of my brain. 396 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: But you know, maybe further research. But yes, we could 397 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: go on to the side about horse radish and mustard 398 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: and the snobby products for a long time. But perhaps 399 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: let's get back to Mary's Siegel. We have some more 400 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: of our conversation with Ease, but first we have a 401 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: quick break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back. 402 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. So she went back to Jamaica at 403 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: a point, and then back to Panama, and along the 404 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: way she continued to treat people and sell goods um 405 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,120 Speaker 1: but when she learned about Britain's involvement in the Crimean War, 406 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: which took place from eighteen to eighteen fifty six, she 407 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: decided to volunteer her services. So, as the story goes, 408 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: she wanted to be amonga pride and pomp of war. 409 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: I think she said something like along those lines in 410 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: her autobiography. But she wanted to volunteer her services and 411 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: eight people and soldiers and officers in what way that 412 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: she could during the war. But it's also been said 413 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: that her motives were more to make money as a 414 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: businesswoman rather than to aid sick and injured soldiers. So 415 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: she was what was called a sutler or a person 416 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: who sold provisions to officers in the military, and so 417 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: she would sell food and alcohol to officers. And that's, 418 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: you know, also part of her story and has been 419 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: debated her true motives for going over and joining the 420 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: war effort. But as she recounted in her autobiography, she 421 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: brought letters of reference from British officers in Kingston and 422 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: people kept turning her down along the way when she 423 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: was asking to volunteer her services. Um, there was Elizabeth Herbert, 424 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: who was recruiting nurses on behalf of her husband who 425 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: was the Secretary at war, who supposedly said that all 426 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: the nursing positions have been filled. So she went to 427 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: Turkey any ay and apparently tried to join nurses but 428 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 1: was again turned down. And so there are others stories 429 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: or elements of the story and which she said that 430 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: she was turned down from a position because they would 431 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: say the position was filled, and the question was whether 432 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: it was about her race or not. Um. But in 433 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 1: her autobiography there is a part in there where she 434 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,479 Speaker 1: questions whether her skin color had something to do with 435 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: why she kept being turned away and said, was it 436 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 1: possible that American prejudices against color had some root here. 437 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: Did these ladies shrink from accepting my aid because my 438 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: blood float beneath a somewhat duskier skin than There's also 439 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 1: the word dusk ear. That's the second time that I've 440 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: said that in the gloats from her, and it's definitely 441 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,719 Speaker 1: an interesting choice for darker dusk gear is definitely one 442 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 1: of those old, those old things. But um, yeah, that's 443 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: just an aside. So she she did decide to hit 444 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: to Balaklava in the Cromere herself, um, and she intended 445 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: to start the British Hotel. There was these cards or 446 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: flyers about it, and she wanted it to serve as 447 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: a mess table and comfortable quarters for sick and convalescent officers. 448 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: So it's said that because she was funding it with 449 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: her own money, she could only treat people who could 450 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: pay her um. But it's also you know, the conversation 451 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: around that as well as that it was first and 452 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: foremost a business that really operated as a restaurant in 453 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: a store for officers who at the top had much 454 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 1: more money than soldiers. It could actually pay for all 455 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: the things that she was offering for purchase. So she did. 456 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: She did provide supplies and food to officers and also 457 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: spectators who came to see battles. Yeah, I guess wow, 458 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: all right, you know before Netflix, Uh interesting, Yeah, it 459 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: was the thing. And she's been described also as making 460 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: tea for wounded soldiers and tending to their wounds, and 461 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,360 Speaker 1: she provided catering for events. So she talks about how 462 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: during her work she ran into British military personnel whom 463 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 1: she had already known from her time in Jamaica, and 464 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: many people referred to her as mothers sa Cole and 465 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: viewed her favorably. So when the war ended, she went 466 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: back to England with little money um, and not in 467 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: the greatest health. And she talks about how other people 468 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: returned to England with more money, but she she wasn't 469 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: set up that way, um, And she had to declare 470 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: bankruptcy when she went back to England. And there are um, 471 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: there's information in the press, um a little bit in 472 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 1: articles about the bankruptcy proceedings, um, which were possibly because 473 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: of a venture with a business partner named Thomas Day 474 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: that went at And this is just one of those 475 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:03,360 Speaker 1: things like it's not we're not going to be able 476 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: to put everything in. But Thomas Day, Um was one 477 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: of her business partners, was a white man, and a 478 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: bunch of rumors swirling around this Thomas Day guy, but 479 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: um them getting to business ventures together that didn't go 480 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 1: so hot, him potentially doing things that messed up their 481 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: business ventures and messed up her money. Um, potentially having 482 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 1: a daughter with her. These are all rumors that swirled 483 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: around Thomas Day. Wow. Yeah, so it's a lot of 484 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff like that in in her story. 485 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: But there were creditors who were looking for Mary c. 486 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: Cole for payment, and yeah, there are articles about her 487 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: her going through bankruptcy. But there's also this whole super 488 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: interesting element of fundraising that happened around Mary se Coal 489 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: because when work got out of her financial troubles, a 490 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: fund was set up for her. UM though she apparently 491 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: didn't get much money out of it, A bunch of 492 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: fundraisers for her continue to pop up. But this included 493 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: later in her life. UM, there was a benefit held 494 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: in her honor that supposedly had tens of thousands of 495 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: people show up and pay like a certain amount to 496 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: get in. UM. So there are a bunch of these 497 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: efforts that happened around raising money for Mary Sea Coal 498 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: and kind of um, people who are attesting to her 499 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: reputation and other people who didn't want to donate money 500 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: to her necessarily. Um, but that was a large part 501 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: of her her later life, and she was able to 502 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: make money from some of those fundraising efforts. Yeah. I 503 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: was reading about those and and um, as you say, 504 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: a lot of information around this is sort of I 505 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: don't know how true that is, but one of the 506 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: things I was reading said there was like a four 507 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: day fundraiser for her. Yeah, and like thousands attended and 508 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: thousands of dollars was raised. Wow. Yeah, interesting, Uh huh. 509 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: There's a lot of um praise that happens in her 510 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: around other people who were speaking of her as saying 511 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: she was, you know, the motherly Sea Coal figure. Um, 512 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: she took care of me. I loved for her to 513 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: be around, and that's been called into question as well. 514 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: You know, there was a lot of that around surrounding her, 515 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: and also on these fundraisers were pretty like they happened 516 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: from time to time, happened occasionally, but this was around 517 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: this time too, after she went back when her autobiography 518 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: was published, which was it was published in eighteen fifty seven, UM, 519 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: and it was dedicated to Major General Lord Rokeby, who 520 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: was a commander of the first Vision in Crimea. It 521 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: also contained an intro by Times correspondent William Howard Russell. 522 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: He has one of those praising quotes, um, and we'll 523 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: get to that later, um. But he's also supposedly wrote 524 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: praising quotes about her as well. And in the book 525 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: she details her travels and her experiences in the Crimean War. 526 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: She talks a little bit about the first half of 527 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: our life, um, but then she spends more time on 528 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: her years in Panama, even more time on her life 529 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: and Crimea, and in the end she talks about going 530 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: back to England. So she did get some recognition and 531 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: money from the autobiography and it got some good reviews. Yeah. 532 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: So that's the quick and dirty version of all of 533 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: the travels that Mary s Cole went through and the 534 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: things that she said she did when it came to 535 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: healing people. Um. She spent her later years in Jamaican 536 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: England UM, and apparently aligned herself with a lot of 537 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: people in the royal circle and upper circles. And you know, 538 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: she even was able to get property through her fundraising 539 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: efforts later in life, and she died in May of 540 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: UM and she was buried in St Mary's Roman Catholic 541 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: Cemetery and canceled Green in London. So that's the short 542 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: of her actual biography. But there then there's all the 543 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,959 Speaker 1: controversy around what happened the bringing back of her legacy 544 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: arts talking about her legacy again, how she's kind of 545 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: re emerged in these times, and her inclusion and curriculums. 546 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,479 Speaker 1: There are sources and bused that have been made of 547 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: her showing that she got several medals of including the 548 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: French Legion of Honor, but she herself never claimed that 549 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: she want any but there are a lot of sources 550 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: who that say she got this medal and she got 551 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: the Cromia medal, and but that none of those have 552 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: ever been attributed to her, and most likely she did 553 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: not get those because you know, even the Crowmia metal 554 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,959 Speaker 1: required her to have served. So that's part of one 555 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: of those things that there's been debate over and people 556 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: are trying to correct the misinformation that's going around owned 557 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: about her. UM. Since her autobiography was published, there have 558 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: been more editions of it that were published as well, 559 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: with different introductions. So, as you said Annie earlier, there 560 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: are a lot more people who have raised her legacy 561 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: to the forefront, and that has also brought up people 562 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: who are questioning the use of bringing her legacy to 563 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: the forefront again and what she actually did. And part 564 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: of that is because of Florence Nightingale, who wound her 565 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: way into Mary see Cole's story in some parts. So 566 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: there stories about how Nightingale didn't approve of the alcohol 567 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: that she sold to soldiers or officers, um that she 568 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: wasn't supposed to do that that it was improper, and 569 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: her being turned down by nighting Gale because she was black. 570 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: There have been other instances um specifically one where the 571 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: BBC and a show or in a program called Horrible 572 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: Histories portrayed see Cool in a certain way and portray 573 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: Nightingale in a way where it made her look racist. 574 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: She pushed Sea Cool out of the way because and 575 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: she was just as a nurse. There's a bunch of 576 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: controversy over the portrayals of nighting Gale in relation to 577 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: See Coal that put Nightingale in an unfavorable light essentially, 578 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: So there all the critics of Sea Cool and the 579 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: Supporters of Nightingale have said that Secol's role in the 580 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: Crimean War has been really overhyped. So they have claimed 581 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: that like her treatments weren't as effective as they've been portrayed. 582 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: She didn't really actually save a bunch of lives, but 583 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: that her care was comforting to people who were sick 584 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:47,919 Speaker 1: and or who were hurt. But her actual use and 585 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: benefit or if you want to put in those terms 586 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: of production, but you know, her actual what she did 587 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: for people was hyped up to discredit Florence Nightingale, who 588 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: doesn't look the best in Seacole's biographies. And it's been 589 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: said that some of that misinformation has been circulated so 590 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: that she can replace Nightingale as quote, the founder of 591 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: modern profession of nursing, So she wasn't there. They also 592 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: say that se Coel wasn't a nurse. Um though places 593 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: like the BBC, as I was talking about earlier in 594 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: that program Horrible History, has a portrayed her as such. Um. 595 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: So some of those people even went to the BBC 596 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,800 Speaker 1: and said, hey, look, this portrayal of Sequel isn't correct, 597 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: like you need to fix it and makes Nightingale look bad. 598 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,280 Speaker 1: Um and The BBC fought that complaint for a while 599 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 1: but said that ultimately said that the portrayal of Nightingale 600 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: was inaccurate. But there have been people who have been 601 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,760 Speaker 1: very vocal about what they say is the myth making 602 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 1: around se col So. Specifically, there was a professor in 603 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: a former MP in Canada. Her name was Lin McDonald um. 604 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: So she's been super vocal about it um and she 605 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: was involved and I think co founded the Nightingale Society. 606 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: She has a bunch of videos on the issue, and 607 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: she's one of the people who really puts forward the 608 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: idea that yes, se Cole was really kind and generous, 609 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: but she didn't save a bunch of lives, you know, 610 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: she did things like Tanta sports injuries. She said that 611 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 1: she wasn't actually a battlefield nurse as some people make 612 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: her seem um and doesn't deserve to be treated as 613 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: a pioneer in nursing um. So they kind of what 614 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: they do is portray her as an opportunistic businesswoman, basically 615 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: as a sutler character instead of the nurse character who 616 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: has when we're looking at if we're going to look 617 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: at her legacy in terms of that kind of characterization, Um, 618 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: but who happened to be good at comforting military personnel 619 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: who needed it, So she was They say, yes, she 620 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: could have been this mother see cool figure who did 621 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: help treat people, but kind of downplay the importance and 622 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: the actual impact of the work that she did. Um 623 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 1: and say, well, you can't discredit Florence Nightingale's legacy and 624 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: history two make Sea cool look better in any way. 625 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: That's kind of the angle that that they come from. 626 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's the whole, the whole part of the 627 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: way that people look back at, um Sea calls legacy. Yeah, 628 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: I find that I find that fascinating. You've probably run 629 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: into this more than I have eves, since you're more 630 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 1: into like history world than I am. But um, just 631 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:40,720 Speaker 1: how many times in history we've hitted female historical figures 632 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: against each other instead of kind of just looking at 633 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: this story and this story, what did this person do? 634 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: What did this person do? Instead it's like, well, who 635 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: is the mother of modern nursing or whatever it is, 636 00:37:54,960 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: which you should definitely examine those relationships. But I just 637 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: find it, um sort of telling that that happens a 638 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: lot with um women in history, right, Yeah, and hasn't 639 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: stopped today. You know, that's still that thing that happens 640 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: in for instance, like the rap industry, are different artistry 641 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 1: industries where women are pitted against each other, um, and 642 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: in this case, um, the whole. Yeah, it's kind of 643 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: like a Florence Nightingale versus Mary c cold beef that 644 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: we're we're putting on them from the future, not that 645 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 1: not necessarily happened while they were both alive, but yeah, 646 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: it's the It's definitely something that there's a thread of 647 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 1: when you're looking looking back at history and how women 648 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,439 Speaker 1: were pitted against each other. Yeah, and I do think 649 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: like as we as we always say about first and like, um, 650 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 1: how how many first were raised and all of the 651 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 1: stuff that happened to lead up to it first and 652 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: the erasure of um, women of color and black women 653 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 1: specifically when it comes to white women, Like, I think 654 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: that's totally a conversation worth having always. It's just funny 655 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 1: to me that it becomes like you can't take this 656 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: away from Florence starting Gale, right, it doesn't have a 657 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,399 Speaker 1: bigger conversation and that it not only does it talk 658 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: about the erasure of what when another did, which is like, 659 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,800 Speaker 1: why can't we just celebrate that both they did something 660 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: and it approved and it was something to be credited for. 661 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: But on top of that, like that conversation that we 662 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: continue to have his but why is there such limited 663 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: space that we have to have an argument about who's 664 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: worth talking about instead of actually just bringing in the 665 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: holes like this is an amazing thing. Let's celebrate all 666 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: of this. There's enough space for everyone. Why not, right? 667 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: I think that's a really great point. You bring up Samantha, 668 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,919 Speaker 1: just because in thinking about the arguments that people have 669 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: against there are people. These people are you know, her her, 670 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,239 Speaker 1: We should they shouldn't necessarily include her incurriculum, is what 671 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: I was trying to say earlier when I'm gonna get 672 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,280 Speaker 1: the work right. But um, that they shouldn't necessarily include 673 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: her in curriculum. And there was this fight over whether 674 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 1: she should be taken out of curriculum because of the 675 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,280 Speaker 1: way that the supposed misinformation that has been going around 676 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,840 Speaker 1: about her. But I think it's a great point because 677 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: the points like, oh, well, she didn't necessarily save a 678 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: bunch of lives. She just made people feel better. It's like, 679 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: and there's nothing wrong with that. Both and can be okay, 680 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 1: both and are valuable, and it kind of devalues it 681 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 1: makes the work that people do when it comes to healing, 682 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,879 Speaker 1: when it comes to treating people. Um, it devalues some 683 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 1: work over the next um and in this specific case, 684 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: values the work of a white woman over UM, a 685 00:40:54,760 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 1: woman with black ancestry. UM. And I think that, Um, 686 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: it's just so many layers to the conversation around Mary 687 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: see Cole, because there's the element of race itself with 688 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: and I didn't even get to the other side of people. 689 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: So I'll get I'll get to that right now before 690 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,399 Speaker 1: I even dig deeper into that side, so I can 691 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: explain that and make it clear because there was is 692 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 1: another side. These people who I was mentioning earlier, who 693 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: are critics of the way that her legacy is being proposed. 694 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 1: A lot of those people are protectors of Florence Nightingale's legacy, 695 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 1: which should be said for sure, UM. But there are 696 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 1: the people on the other hand who have said that 697 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:41,880 Speaker 1: her history has been erased and overshadowed by Nightingales. UM. 698 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 1: But then there are people who aren't even talking about Nightingale. 699 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: They're just like, well, Secal's legacy deserves to be talked 700 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 1: about right now. Um. And there are people who do 701 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,879 Speaker 1: view her as a black woman and say that her 702 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,320 Speaker 1: accomplishments should be viewed in that light, and they reject 703 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 1: the view that at Nightingale supporters put forth, saying that 704 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:08,360 Speaker 1: that downplays and discredits people who used herbal remedies to 705 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: help people and other traditional practices in healing, and that 706 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,400 Speaker 1: she did really have success in medicine and in minor 707 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: surgery um. And that all the moves to remove her 708 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,480 Speaker 1: from curriculum and to strip away her blackness and claims 709 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,439 Speaker 1: that her accomplishments are exaggerated are just kind of strategies 710 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: to remove her contributions from Britain and that historical record 711 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: and discredit all the things that she actually did do. 712 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 1: So you know, they're calling into question her critics are 713 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 1: calling into question that anything she did ever was important, 714 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: even if they say, oh, yeah, this happened. She definitely 715 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,600 Speaker 1: helped people, But does it really matter? Do we really 716 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 1: need to talk about it? Um? And so there are 717 00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,839 Speaker 1: the issues of well, there's her race, um, questions over 718 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 1: percentages over her race, of that she was three quarters 719 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,360 Speaker 1: wide and only one quote unquote quadroon, and that she 720 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 1: really was very fair skinned um and did have privilege. 721 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:18,120 Speaker 1: And then there's the issue of her not calling herself 722 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 1: black at all. And then there's the issue well, you know, 723 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 1: we still need to recognize the things that she actually 724 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,879 Speaker 1: did when it came to treating people. Um And even 725 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 1: if it wasn't to the extent of saving thousands of lives, 726 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:40,359 Speaker 1: did she actually leave an impact on the people that 727 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 1: were involved or that she treated um. So yeah, I 728 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,879 Speaker 1: think it's just so many layers to it, um, which 729 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: makes her history just so complicated and as very tangible 730 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,719 Speaker 1: and real example of that, there is a statue of 731 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,080 Speaker 1: her at St. Thomas's Hospital and len did which is 732 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 1: affiliated with Nightingale, which Nightingale's folks took as kind of 733 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 1: a fight to them, they're like, why Sea Coel here? 734 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 1: She didn't do anything? And on it there's a quote 735 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 1: that's attributed to the Times correspondent who I spoke of earlier, 736 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: William Howard Russell, and the quote was, I trust that 737 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,000 Speaker 1: England will not forget one who nursed her sick, who 738 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 1: sought out her wounded to aid and sucker them, and 739 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,359 Speaker 1: who performed the last offices for some of her illustrious dead. 740 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,680 Speaker 1: So that's one of those praising quotes that comes from 741 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,839 Speaker 1: someone else and speaking about Sea coal Um and that's 742 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,479 Speaker 1: on the statue, and there was a whole debate over 743 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,959 Speaker 1: why that statue should be there, whether it should be there, 744 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: and that Sea Coel shouldn't be honored in that way 745 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 1: at the hospital because of Nightingale's legacy that's wrapped up 746 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: in the hospital. That sounds like a narrowed version of 747 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,759 Speaker 1: all lives matter. I mean, I know that's good kind 748 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: of a generalization, but just like why are you? It's 749 00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,760 Speaker 1: not one against another. It's that we're focusing on something 750 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,920 Speaker 1: that as significant at a time, whatever it may be, 751 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,279 Speaker 1: and that we gave credit to that not a lot 752 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 1: of people know about and that should be celebrated and 753 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,960 Speaker 1: it's worth celebrating. It's not like a slight to anyone else. 754 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: Is not to slap you in the face, to be 755 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,600 Speaker 1: like ha ha, see, we're not about you. And it's 756 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: such a like a weird like conversation, especially because Mary 757 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:25,480 Speaker 1: Seckel maybe she wasn't as medically um knowledgeable as Nightingale. 758 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,279 Speaker 1: I don't know, but what I hear as a social worker, 759 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,719 Speaker 1: I'm like what we have discovered as of late, and 760 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,480 Speaker 1: I'm not know, I'm just stretching, is that if mental 761 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,160 Speaker 1: health is not taken care of, that physical health may 762 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,840 Speaker 1: not be taken care of either as much medical procedures 763 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 1: that can happen. And it sounds like Mary Seckel did 764 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,000 Speaker 1: kind of all of that, Like not only did she 765 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,240 Speaker 1: try to bring the medical aspect, but she also gave 766 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 1: the mental health, loving nurturing aspect as well. That was 767 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,360 Speaker 1: a little bit more unheard of at that time of crisis, 768 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 1: you know. And I'm like, why can't we credit her 769 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 1: for that? Right? And oh, I love that point because 770 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,360 Speaker 1: it's something that people wouldn't necessarily have had the language 771 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 1: for at the time, Like she wouldn't have been saying 772 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,759 Speaker 1: mental health and quotes, but she would have been performing that. 773 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,799 Speaker 1: Here's the line she says, I do not think that 774 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,719 Speaker 1: we hot blooded creoles sorrow less for showing it so impetuously. 775 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,759 Speaker 1: But I do think that the sharp edge of our 776 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: grief wears down sooner than their's, who preserve an outward 777 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: demeanor of calmness and nurse their woes secretly in their hearts. 778 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,280 Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh my gosh, you're talking about black anger. 779 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:34,919 Speaker 1: You're talking about perceptions of black anger. And notwithstanding all 780 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 1: of the black women's anger, specifically UM and pain and 781 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,200 Speaker 1: black women's pain and the way that we show it, 782 00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:43,840 Speaker 1: in the way that it's perceived and the way that 783 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 1: it's treated. And I'm like, well, I need to read 784 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,239 Speaker 1: that line like so many more times, because there's a 785 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 1: lot that can be called into question in the way 786 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 1: that she spoke about other people and looked at other 787 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,479 Speaker 1: people and viewed them as not part of the group 788 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:02,120 Speaker 1: that she was part of. UM. But I totally agree 789 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 1: with what you're saying, Samantha, where it's like in an 790 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,839 Speaker 1: explicit and not so explicit went At the same time, 791 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,560 Speaker 1: the people who are criticizing the work that she did do, 792 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,920 Speaker 1: they're recognizing the fact that they that she did address 793 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,360 Speaker 1: mental health and she did make people feel better and 794 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,720 Speaker 1: she did help people, but saying that that's not worthy 795 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,400 Speaker 1: of our praise and our recognition. So I think that 796 00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:28,000 Speaker 1: in a way devalues. I mean, there's a lot that 797 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 1: can be said about, you know, the criticism itself, but 798 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 1: the fact that they acknowledge that she did work and 799 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,759 Speaker 1: devaluate at the same time, I think take some credibility 800 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,959 Speaker 1: away from anything that may actually be credible that they're 801 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:48,720 Speaker 1: calling into question. Agreed, Yeah, agreed as well. We concur 802 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:52,880 Speaker 1: we do have a little bit more for your listeners, 803 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 1: but first we have one more cup break for worksimoor sponsor, 804 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,479 Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. I just think, um, 805 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 1: we were talking about Lucy Parsons, but Mary se Coel 806 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,759 Speaker 1: just kind of brings up a lot of issues that 807 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 1: are happening today and in different aspect and different time frame, 808 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,920 Speaker 1: and it's just weary some I guess, but at the 809 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,399 Speaker 1: same time like validating, like, yeah, this has been a thing, 810 00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:30,480 Speaker 1: and this has been a conversation and it's just in 811 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,640 Speaker 1: a different narrative. And this is why it's so important 812 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:34,560 Speaker 1: that we do look at the history of what has 813 00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,439 Speaker 1: happened and what is happening then what is happening now 814 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 1: in that same level of her, whether practices and medicine, 815 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,640 Speaker 1: whether it's being acknowledged. And I read the information that 816 00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,160 Speaker 1: she was talking about the fact that Americans were more 817 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,040 Speaker 1: um racists towards her or prejudice towards her, and she 818 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:54,920 Speaker 1: noted that it was Americans, which is really sad um 819 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:59,000 Speaker 1: in every way because it seems like it really hasn't changed. 820 00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:05,879 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm just who caught up in everything that's bad here. Yes, yeah, 821 00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,520 Speaker 1: there was a part two I think where if I'm 822 00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,319 Speaker 1: remembering correctly, I think where she said something along the 823 00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:13,920 Speaker 1: lines of could it be that here in London, when 824 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,640 Speaker 1: she was in London, they have the same prejudices that 825 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:22,400 Speaker 1: they have in America. Um. Yeah, so yes, Uh it's 826 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:27,200 Speaker 1: funny because I mean there's obviously the conversation about racism 827 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,920 Speaker 1: that's explicit and racism that's veiled, and um, all of 828 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:36,799 Speaker 1: those conversations and uh um yeah, I think that goes 829 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,600 Speaker 1: deep because you know, she presented she was very fair skinned, 830 00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,839 Speaker 1: so she presented in one way and also says that 831 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,720 Speaker 1: she had experiences of being treated as a black woman. 832 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:52,040 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, there's a lot of unpack it is. 833 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:59,000 Speaker 1: It's very um complex and nuanced conversation happening around her 834 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,919 Speaker 1: and the and the book. We'll say, from what I've read, 835 00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 1: is enjoyable and it didn't make me think a lot. 836 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,440 Speaker 1: And also if anyone, if I you're like on the 837 00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:12,160 Speaker 1: fence about reading it, one of the chapter like subtitles 838 00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:14,919 Speaker 1: is I am taken for a spy and they're at 839 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:21,319 Speaker 1: lose my temper, So come on, come on, it's time yeah, yeah, 840 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,640 Speaker 1: and I feel like as a society we definitely like 841 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:29,399 Speaker 1: to we don't like complexity and nuance a lot of times, 842 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,839 Speaker 1: we just like the bite size headline thing. So I'm 843 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:38,520 Speaker 1: glad we're having this conversation now. I think it's really important. Agreed. Well, 844 00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,560 Speaker 1: thank you so much as always, Eves. Such a pleasure, 845 00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,399 Speaker 1: Always learned so much, Always love seeing you and hearing 846 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:52,160 Speaker 1: you you too. Where can the good listeners find you? 847 00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,400 Speaker 1: You can find me on social media. Um. You can 848 00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,160 Speaker 1: also hear me on This Day in History Class, a 849 00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,719 Speaker 1: podcast about history. Um. But yeah, you can find me 850 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,640 Speaker 1: on social media. I'm at Eve's Jeff Coke. You can 851 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,359 Speaker 1: also look up This Day in History Classes socials. They're 852 00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:12,880 Speaker 1: all T D I h C podcast and yeah, that's 853 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:17,720 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, and definitely go check all those things 854 00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,440 Speaker 1: out if you haven't already. And if you'd like to 855 00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:24,080 Speaker 1: contact us, you can. Our email is Stuff Media, mom 856 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,239 Speaker 1: Stuff that I Heart media dot com. You can find 857 00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:28,480 Speaker 1: us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram 858 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,880 Speaker 1: at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as always to 859 00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:35,520 Speaker 1: our super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks again to you, Eves, 860 00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:39,600 Speaker 1: and thanks to everyone for listening Stuff I've Never Told 861 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:41,560 Speaker 1: you the production of I Heart Radio from more podcasts 862 00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,120 Speaker 1: from my heart Radio is the hear radio app, Apple podcast, 863 00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:45,840 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.