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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello and Happy Friday. Am Holly Frye and

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Speaker 1: I'm Tracy ve Wilson. We talked about Anthony Van Dyke

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Speaker 1: this week.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, who. As I mentioned at the end of the episode, I.

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Speaker 1: Probably drove my friends crazy because I have a really

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Speaker 1: beautiful book of a lot of his pieces, and I

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Speaker 1: would just take a picture on my phone and send

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Speaker 1: it to them and be like, can.

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Speaker 2: You believe because they're so good.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just my mind boggles at his skill.

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Speaker 1: I am really fascinated by the sort of cagey information

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Speaker 1: we have.

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Speaker 2: About his family situation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because I really do think when you put all

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Speaker 1: the pieces together, particularly the revelation that he had a

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Speaker 1: secret daughter that his sister was raising, then him going

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Speaker 1: so hard to fight his brothers in law over the

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Speaker 1: family fortune, starts to make a lot of sense. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he may have just done it for the benefit of

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Speaker 1: his siblings, but also when you think about like, oh,

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Speaker 1: one of those siblings was raising his kid, and it's like, ah,

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Speaker 1: now I see, yeah, which is pretty fascinating to me.

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Speaker 2: All of that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think he was this is a guess

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Speaker 1: this is my speculation. I think he was purposely kind

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Speaker 1: of kg about his travels and whatnot for that very reason.

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Speaker 1: No one ever knew about this kid, apparently until his will.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, sneaky. I have a note in my notes

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Speaker 1: that says the timeline of European art Caravagio. You're like,

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Speaker 1: what did I mean? What I mean their lives overlapped? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I don't I wrote this outline long enough ago,

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Speaker 1: like we've been kind of juggling some recording stuff because

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Speaker 1: of our schedules and I and some problems with you know,

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Speaker 1: just technical issues, and I don't remember what that note

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Speaker 1: was about. It was so crystal clear to me then,

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Speaker 1: but there you go. Yeah, yeah, I do remember is

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Speaker 1: my note about historical portraits, Because okay, every once in

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Speaker 1: a while there is a trend in our modern lives

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Speaker 1: where like a portrait studio will pop up or an

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Speaker 1: existing studio will do an offer for a little while

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Speaker 1: where they do old timey photography were like you can

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Speaker 1: go get your picture taken and it looks like you're

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Speaker 1: in the wild West or you are in Victorian London

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Speaker 1: or whatever. And now, of course you know with photoshop

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Speaker 1: and like filter and filters. Yeah, and like, I don't

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Speaker 1: even want to get into the AI situation. You can

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Speaker 1: do that all the time, but his historical portraits kind

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Speaker 1: of made me think of that. Like people were like, no,

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Speaker 1: I want it to be me, but I want to

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Speaker 1: look like Venus.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, ah, that's an idea. I love it.

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Speaker 3: So many things in this episode reminds me of our

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Speaker 3: episode on Mickle Nolatier. Yeah, who they were contemporaries, but

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Speaker 3: stuff like a lack of agreement about how to say

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Speaker 3: her name because it sort of depends on whether you

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Speaker 3: are being more French or more Dutch. And the part

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Speaker 3: about working as a professional artist while not being a

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Speaker 3: member of the guild.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like that.

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Speaker 3: I think that was something that I feel like, if

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Speaker 3: I'm remembering correctly, her brother had been working as a

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Speaker 3: professional painter without being in the guild. And then of

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Speaker 3: course just the the overlap of when and where when

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Speaker 3: and where they lived.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I am. I wish we had more info on

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Speaker 1: his inner life, Yeah, because other than like his notes

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Speaker 1: about you know, finding pieces of art really beautiful or whatever,

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Speaker 1: we don't have, to the best of my knowledge, any

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Speaker 1: kind of like journals or discussions that are from his

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Speaker 1: point of view of his thoughts, and I feel like

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Speaker 1: he had to have been such an interesting character to

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Speaker 1: be down. I also think like he might be a

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Speaker 1: history crush. He's so handsome in those later self portraits.

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Speaker 1: I just think he's cute as pie. And he was apparently,

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Speaker 1: you know, right up until the point where he got

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Speaker 1: married right in his forties, like a womanizer, so clearly

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Speaker 1: like he had charm and appeal and charisma. The idea

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Speaker 1: pretty recently introduced that we have completely misunderstood his relationship

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Speaker 1: with Rubens is also fascinating to me, right, Like we

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Speaker 1: you and I see this all the time. I think

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Speaker 1: anybody who any kind of like history research regularly does,

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Speaker 1: where like there is a version of a story that

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Speaker 1: gets written, or a version of a biography or whatever

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Speaker 1: that gets written, sometimes pretty close to when the actual

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Speaker 1: events happened, and the default, because there aren't necessarily other sources,

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Speaker 1: is to take that as the truth. Yeah, but like

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Speaker 1: we don't know, right right, Yeah, There's That's something that

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Speaker 1: I find really interesting in the field of history in

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Speaker 1: general and just doing the show, like how how the

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Speaker 1: history that is written about a subject evolves over time

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Speaker 1: and that's normal.

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Speaker 2: YEA.

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Speaker 3: Like sometimes folks who maybe I mean, I'm not I'm

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Speaker 3: not judging anybody's knowledge, Like, but folks who you know,

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Speaker 3: do not have a sense of like what the field

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Speaker 3: of history does. Will learn that there is a biography

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Speaker 3: that has sort of a new interpretation of something worked,

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Speaker 3: and we'll imagine that there's something like wrong with that

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Speaker 3: when really like that. That's how the whole field of

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Speaker 3: history works. It's the whole process of evaluating and interpreting

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Speaker 3: the sources that we have about something. And sometimes there

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Speaker 3: are new sources that are discovered, but other times it

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Speaker 3: is more that you know, the next historian to really

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Speaker 3: take a thorough look at something is looking at it

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Speaker 3: from a different perspective, with different you know, parts of

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Speaker 3: their own education and worldview and all of that, and

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Speaker 3: can interpret something a bit differently than before. Yeah, this

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Speaker 3: is why I really like that Christopher White biography that

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Speaker 3: we mentioned a couple times in the episode. It's fairly recent, right,

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Speaker 3: it's twenty twenty one, I believe. And he's really the

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Speaker 3: first one to point out like there isn't really any

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Speaker 3: evidence of some kind of dramatic fight between the two

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Speaker 3: of them, right, But it makes the I mean, if

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Speaker 3: you want to apply Okham's razor see how I did

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Speaker 3: that looped around to another old podcast subject, it makes

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Speaker 3: more logical sense that, like they just weren't in the

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Speaker 3: same place at the same time, they weren't having the

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Speaker 3: same life trajectory, since you know, Rubens had this other

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Speaker 3: career and a family that needed his time and attention.

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Speaker 3: You know, it just makes and he was clearly like

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Speaker 3: passing commissions off to Van Dyck, right right, So whether

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Speaker 3: or not you buy the idea that like, oh the portraits,

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Speaker 3: because those were not as well regarded as real art,

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Speaker 3: he's still making sure the guy's get in the living,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean it well, and that like

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Speaker 3: that was something that was really interesting to me. There

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Speaker 3: have always been forms of art or literature or whatever

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Speaker 3: that were viewed as the real deal, while others were

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Speaker 3: viewed as like commercial or not worthy of scholarly attention.

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Speaker 2: And like, like.

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Speaker 3: The literature department that I studied in in college, I

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Speaker 3: loved so many things about it was snobby in terms

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Speaker 3: of like what was considered okay to study and what

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Speaker 3: was serious literature and what was not.

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Speaker 2: So I find this.

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Speaker 3: Whole idea of like the portraiture was thought of as

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Speaker 3: commercial and not art art really interesting, and it also

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Speaker 3: just makes me curious about how, like if this really

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Speaker 3: was something that was playing into his mind at all,

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Speaker 3: Like how did he feel about it?

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Speaker 2: Was he like, I'm.

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Speaker 3: Making plenty of money, Like what's your goal with your art?

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Speaker 3: Is it to be able to support yourself or is

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Speaker 3: it to you know, make great art?

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Speaker 2: Or is it both? Like what is it? And I

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Speaker 2: don't do that?

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Speaker 3: Just I kept getting distracted by those thoughts while we

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Speaker 3: were talking about.

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Speaker 2: That part of his work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean, he was painting other things, but

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Speaker 1: he really became so known for his portraits. And I

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Speaker 1: almost think, right, that is a unique opportunity. Right at

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Speaker 1: a time when art art, for lack of a better phrase,

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Speaker 1: was glutted with people doing religious imagery, historical imagery, et cetera,

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Speaker 1: he elevated portraiture in a way that made everybody excited

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Speaker 1: about portraits. Right, So, like he kind of took that opportunity,

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Speaker 1: whether he intended to or not, of like the lesser

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Speaker 1: regarded part of the art world and made it something that,

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Speaker 1: you know, really transcended all of the others and makes

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Speaker 1: it so interesting. It really to me, seems like I

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Speaker 1: wish this is another use of our imaginary time machine.

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Speaker 1: I would love to go to England and see the

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Speaker 1: unveiling of like his or Rubens's very naturalistic portraits in

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Speaker 1: a world where mannerism had been like it for a while,

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Speaker 1: because it is such a gear shift of like those

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Speaker 1: very stiff, surreal, slightly surreal looking portraits of people that,

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Speaker 1: like you know, almost vibe to me the way like

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Speaker 1: the characters on a deck of playing cards look right

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Speaker 1: like they're very stiff and not quite natural, and they're

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Speaker 1: often very beautiful, but there they don't feel like real life,

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Speaker 1: whereas then you have these portraits that often look like photographs,

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Speaker 1: and like, how was that being perceived? Obviously a lot

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Speaker 1: of people in England were excited about it, but I'm

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Speaker 1: sure there were people that were like.

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Speaker 2: What is this?

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Speaker 1: That's what people look like? I see that all the time.

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Speaker 1: I don't want it en up painting. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there were detractors of that nature. But I

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Speaker 1: love it all. I love it all. I could really

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Speaker 1: look at his stuff all the time, and now I've

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Speaker 1: got it in my head that I need to do

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Speaker 1: like a Van museum crawl and just plan maybe multiple

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Speaker 1: trips to go places where they have some of his

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Speaker 1: best things. But I think that sounds great with that

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Speaker 1: sunflower portrait you can only see in a book, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: unless it gets loaned out one day, which I don't

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Speaker 1: think happens very often.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know. I haven't tracked it.

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Speaker 1: Right anyway, Anthony Van Dyke, you sneaky little minx, your

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Speaker 1: secret families and your unclear impetus for doing various things right,

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Speaker 1: I don't even care. Just keep showing me the paintings.

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Speaker 1: I'm good.

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Speaker 2: We talked about mammograms this week. We sure did.

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Speaker 3: One thing I did want to say before we start

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Speaker 3: is the most recent email that we got asking for

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Speaker 3: an episode on mammograms. The person he wrote in expressed

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Speaker 3: feeling very afraid about the idea of eventually needing to

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Speaker 3: get a mammogram because of all the horror stories shared.

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Speaker 3: And so I just want to take a minute, and

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Speaker 3: I want to acknowledge first I am not having to

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Speaker 3: deal with medical racism or fat phobia or transphobia, or

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Speaker 3: like I'm a white woman in a major metropolitan area

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Speaker 3: who has insurance. So I recognize that I'm starting like

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Speaker 3: having the easiest access to getting a mammogram. But I

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Speaker 3: have been getting mammograms since I think twenty thirteen, which

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Speaker 3: is I think earlier that at this point anyone record

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Speaker 3: recommend doing so. I think I was thirty eight. Because

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Speaker 3: my mom has had a breastpater, I would say it's

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Speaker 3: not a comfortable experience. There is squeezing of the breasts. Yes,

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Speaker 3: every single person who has ever conducted a mammogram for me,

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Speaker 3: which at this point has been at three different medical

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Speaker 3: centers in Atlanta and in like the Boston area, every

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Speaker 3: single person has been compassionate and efficient and in terms

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Speaker 3: of like having to go back this time, very reassuring.

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Speaker 3: It is clear that everybody knows that, like getting a

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Speaker 3: mammogram is not the funnest thing, and everybody has just

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Speaker 3: tried to get me in and out as efficiently and

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Speaker 3: with the least discomfort possible. Yes, I would rather have

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Speaker 3: twenty five mammograms than one set of dental X rays.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, because dental X rays make me gag and

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Speaker 3: I find it embarrassing, and also would rather have a

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Speaker 3: whole bunch of paps than dental X rays. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I just I feel like people hear the horror stories,

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Speaker 3: and I just of all the things that I could

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Speaker 3: go through in a medical context, I am more stressed

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Speaker 3: out about driving to the mammogram than I am the

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Speaker 3: mammogram itself. This most recent time, we have one car

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Speaker 3: in our household and we accidentally double booked the car.

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Speaker 3: Patrick was going to be out of town with the

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Speaker 3: car and the If you live in the Boston area,

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Speaker 3: you know the tea has been incredibly broken lately, and

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Speaker 3: I did not trust a ride share service to get

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Speaker 3: me there on time either, So I literally stayed in

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Speaker 3: a hotel near the medical center the night before so

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Speaker 3: that I would not have to deal with that stress

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Speaker 3: in the morning, which again, I know, having money to

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Speaker 3: spend on a random hotel night is a privilege, but

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Speaker 3: it made it so much easier.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say too, And I wonder if this

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Speaker 1: is your experience, because I have been getting mammograms for

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Speaker 1: around the same amount of time you have. I am

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Speaker 1: a large, busted woman, But I will say in that

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Speaker 1: decade a little over, because I just had one very recently,

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Speaker 1: I feel like it has gotten less and less uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: as imaging technology has gotten more and more fine tuned.

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Speaker 1: For to me, the flattening and extruding aspect of it

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Speaker 1: used to be way more painful than it is now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: now it's like it's not comfortable. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: hang out there. But like I wasn't like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: just have to gut it out through this. I was like, okay.

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Speaker 3: I think the first mamogram that I ever got was

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Speaker 3: a digital mammogram, but it was not the three D

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Speaker 3: mammogram that they offer where I am now, which I

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Speaker 3: do feel like there's less compression involved in that than

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Speaker 3: there was the first time I got one, which again

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Speaker 3: I think was in something like twenty thirteen, and I'm

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Speaker 3: usually in and out, in and out of there in minutes, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: longer sitting in the waiting room than like actually back there.

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Speaker 3: When I had to go back up for a follow up,

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Speaker 3: there was more compression involved than just for a screening

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Speaker 3: mamogram because they got to get a closer look at it,

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Speaker 3: and then I also had an ultrasound and everything was fine.

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Speaker 3: But like that that, I think the like the going

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Speaker 3: back the diagnostic mammogram was I would say, more uncomfortable,

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Speaker 3: but still like not anything that I would describe to

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Speaker 3: anybody as like the worst thing I know everybody's body's difference, right,

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Speaker 3: But I also feel like if the if you have

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Speaker 3: heard about mammograms from folks that were getting them in

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Speaker 3: the eighties or nineties, probably way more uncomfortable than now.

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Speaker 3: I feel like some of this, in the weirdest way

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Speaker 3: come along on this journey with me relates to kind

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Speaker 3: of this we were talking about when we were talking

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Speaker 3: about Anthony van Dyke, that there's one version of the

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Speaker 3: story of his relationship with Rubens that has impacted the

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Speaker 3: way we have perceived that relationship forever.

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Speaker 2: Sure.

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Speaker 1: Similarly, in the eighties there was a huge, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if huge is the right word, there were significant,

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Speaker 1: high profile women comedians talking about mammograms, and I feel

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Speaker 1: like that seeded because of course you're always kind of

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Speaker 1: like probes to exaggeration, to get the laugh, to the comedian,

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Speaker 1: make the punchline as strong as you can, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like that has seeded this sense of terror in

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Speaker 1: people that have never experienced them, because then it becomes

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Speaker 1: funny to talk about them that way, and that becomes

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Speaker 1: kind of culturally the norm.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so there are.

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Speaker 1: People that are coming up and reaching the age or

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Speaker 1: they're getting close to having to do it and all

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Speaker 1: they've ever heard from like relatives and whatnot. And part

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Speaker 1: of that is also like getting over the still existing

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Speaker 1: stigma of talking about like completely normal medical stuff you

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Speaker 1: got to do to take care of your body. Right,

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Speaker 1: has been a joke about the horror of it, And

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Speaker 1: I remember there was one comedian that used to talk

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Speaker 1: about like smashing your boob between two books, and like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that being like the image people have in their heads

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Speaker 1: or what they've heard their you know, older friends or

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Speaker 1: relatives talk about.

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Speaker 2: Of course that's terrifying.

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Speaker 1: And again it's not I don't want to stand there

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Speaker 1: and drink a diet coke and chat. But like, right,

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Speaker 1: it's not that bad at this point, at least it

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Speaker 1: has not been for me. I am sure for some

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Speaker 1: people it probably is still more painful.

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Speaker 3: Certainly than what I experienced, but right, I also, you know,

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Speaker 3: I to try to do the recommendation of like trying

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Speaker 3: to schedule them between periods when my breasts are less

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Speaker 3: likely to be tender. But that's becoming more challenging, yes,

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Speaker 3: because that's more random. And also since the coat like

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Speaker 3: the height of the COVID pandemic, especially getting the appointment scheduled.

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Speaker 3: Everything's been farther out. Yeah, like the medical system is

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Speaker 3: still struggling from the pandemic. And uh, I think it

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Speaker 3: was not my mammogram that I had to reschedule. I

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Speaker 3: had to reschedule my physical and because I had COVID

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Speaker 3: and in seven months, yeah was it was like two months?

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Speaker 3: Was was how far out my physical moment? But anyway, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I just I wanted to have that. If you have

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Speaker 3: never had one and you only heard horror stories, I

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Speaker 3: understand feeling really scared about it.

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Speaker 2: Uh I do not feel them.

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Speaker 3: I do not personally find them to be a horror

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Speaker 3: story worthy experience.

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Speaker 1: No. And I will say to add on to your

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Speaker 1: mention of how compassionate and kind and really you know,

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Speaker 1: as gentle as possible, most of the people working in

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Speaker 1: those in breast care imaging centers can beat a lot

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Speaker 1: of them too. Really try to make it almost like spa,

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Speaker 1: like where like, oh, yeah, you get a heated gow

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Speaker 1: when you go to do your thing, and like they're

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Speaker 1: playing gentle, soft music and it's very chill.

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Speaker 3: I got one at a women's hospital in Atlanta that

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Speaker 3: was one hundred percent like a day spa with a

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Speaker 3: heated robe, and I still miss it because that is

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Speaker 3: not what I'm doing in Boston. What I'm doing in

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Speaker 3: Boston is like I mean, it's it's fine, it's but

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Speaker 3: it's a very no frills. It's like there's there's your locker,

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00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,720
Speaker 3: you can put your stuff in. Here is a plastic

340
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Speaker 3: bag containing like a clean cotton rope that you and

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Speaker 3: it's it just wasn't just much of a nice It's

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Speaker 3: not as much of a nice experience as the time

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Speaker 3: that there was a heated bathroom on me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, some of them definitely do this hospital experience, which

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Speaker 1: is nice. Yeah, here's the question that I had. Sure,

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Speaker 1: So we mentioned we quoted a statistic about the high

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Speaker 1: incidents where a patient or someone in their life has

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Speaker 1: been how they found their breast cancer. But I am

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Speaker 1: really curious about the parameters of reporting because is that

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00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 1: a case not the great question? Is that a case

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Speaker 1: where they're like, hey, my husband mentioned something felt weird here,

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Speaker 1: so I scheduled a mammogram, like right, well, and that's yes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this particular study that that came from, and as

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Speaker 3: I remember, it was something where it was like patient

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Speaker 3: self reports, like the question was asked, how was your

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Speaker 3: breast cancer very first detected, with that first detection being

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Speaker 3: what we're talking about, and where a lot of people

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Speaker 3: they were either intentionally examining their own breasts right or

359
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 3: it was by accident like you're trying to carry something

360
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 3: and you're like that feels weird, or or their partner

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00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,120
Speaker 3: finding it, and like that was the majority of how

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00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 3: people first So it was like, yes, they did detect

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Speaker 3: something and then went to the doctor and got like

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00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 3: a physical exam of the doctor or a mammogram or whatever.

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Speaker 2: The point was.

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Speaker 3: That, like that I physically felt the thing with my

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Speaker 3: hand or my partner's hand was the first sign for

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Speaker 3: a lot of people, not the going for the routine

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Speaker 3: screening mamogram right now. My other question though, is was

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Speaker 3: that was there a comparable of people who self reported

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Speaker 3: things that turned out to not.

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Speaker 2: Be I don't think so in the study that I

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Speaker 2: was reading, do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Because I know there have definitely been times when I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, everything feels kind of lumpy at the moment, sure,

376
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Speaker 1: and it's been like no clean as a whistle, like,

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Speaker 1: so I wonder if there's that as well to be

378
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 1: factored in, Like sometimes people are just gonna be like, huh,

379
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Speaker 1: that's not quite right. And sometimes unfortunately it tests positive

380
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 1: or it's you know, imaging reveals a mass, but other

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Speaker 1: times probably it doesn't.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I am pretty sure my mom's breast cancer was

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00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 3: detected on a mammogram.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

385
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Speaker 3: One of the people my age I know who just

386
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 3: who went through a breast cancer diagnosis was actually getting

387
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 3: what he thought was going to be his last mammogram

388
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 3: before a gender affirming surgery, and the mammogram found calcifications

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Speaker 3: that were a sign of cancer, and everything's fine. Uh

390
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,439
Speaker 3: with my mom, everything's fine. Like at this point with

391
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 3: my mom, that's been I might even be twenty years ago,

392
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 3: like it's been a long time. Yeah, And so it's

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00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 3: like anecdotally, I feel like I know several people personally

394
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 3: whose breast cancer was first detected on a mammogram. And

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00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 3: it's a hard thing, I think to track because there's

396
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 3: not I mean, there are increasing electronic medical records and

397
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 3: things like that that might make it more possible, but

398
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 3: like that's not something that's necessarily specifically written down in

399
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 3: a way that's going to be something that you can

400
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 3: just correlate across a broad number range of people.

401
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: Well, the other thing too, is like, how often are

402
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: people like, something that doesn't feel right, I should schedule

403
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 1: a mammogram, but they don't ever tell their doctor or

404
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 1: the radiologists that yeah, yeah, I just generally found the

405
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: framing of the question of are mammograms a cost effective

406
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: way to detect early breast cancer? Like I found that

407
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: a really frustrating thing. I feel like there are legitimate

408
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,719
Speaker 1: questions about some of the some of the growths that

409
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 1: are caught really really early.

410
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Speaker 3: There are questions of like did that actually needed to

411
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 3: be that actually need to be treated, same question that's

412
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 3: been around since the seventies, or you know, was that

413
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 3: a tumor that just would have been there causing no

414
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 3: actual harm for the patient's whole life?

415
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 2: Right, And again, having.

416
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 3: Not really realized that it was within my lifetime that

417
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 3: we very first started having routine screening mammograms as a thing,

418
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 3: it doesn't surprise me that there are still so many

419
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 3: pieces of it that there are still questions about, and

420
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 3: it is so personal to people that the idea that like,

421
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 3: maybe you would not start until fifty. People are like,

422
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 3: but what if I developed cancer between forty and fifty?

423
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 3: Like I totally get that, and I remember when recommendations

424
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 3: were changed about when and how often to get paps,

425
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 3: because getting PAP used to be an annual thing, and

426
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 3: now there's a whole I don't want. It's almost like

427
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 3: an equation based on like your age, whether you are

428
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 3: sexually active or monogamous, and whether you've had negative HPV tests,

429
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 3: like all factors into how often you should get a

430
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 3: PAP test.

431
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 2: And when the.

432
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,919
Speaker 3: These like new standards were first put out, I remember

433
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,959
Speaker 3: women in my family being so angry because they were like,

434
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Speaker 3: they want us to not have this every year and

435
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 3: people are gonna die and some of the examples that

436
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 3: they had pointed out. I was like, okay that this

437
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 3: you know, long ago family member that you're talking about

438
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 3: did not have cervical cancer, had a different cancer that

439
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 3: would not have been detected through a PAP at all.

440
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 2: But I get it.

441
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 3: I get how it can feel like ah, but they

442
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 3: now they're just gonna miss it, and it's like, well,

443
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 3: there's a question of did we actually need to do that?

444
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: Though?

445
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I I understand the I'm very like,

446
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: pro get all your screenings, particularly you know, as I

447
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: have gotten older. I no, none of it's fun you're

448
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,479
Speaker 1: not like we I would like to be poked and prodded,

449
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: but I don't know. There's a little bit of peace

450
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: of mind that comes from knowing that you're getting things

451
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 1: looked at and hope, hey, people can develop good relationships

452
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: with their doctors. I know that's not the easiest thing

453
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: in the world, but it's just you know, I want

454
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,479
Speaker 1: to keep everybody around as long as possible. So if

455
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: you can do an early detection on something, I'm very

456
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: I'm very much a proponent of it. Again, I know

457
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: it stinks, but I kind of several years, like probably

458
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: six or seven years ago, I just like made my

459
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: ongoing one of my annual resolutions is like, get all

460
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: the tests my doctor says I need.

461
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

462
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: And then during the height of the pandemic, when nobody

463
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: was going anywhere if they didn't have you, like, there

464
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: were several years where nobody was getting stuff screened, right

465
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: then I had to have We we had our little

466
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: discussion here at our house of like, you know, we

467
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: have to go get a million things.

468
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 2: We got to even do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah.

469
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 3: I remember at one point reading headlines about like the

470
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 3: whole debate about whether people should be screened between forty

471
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,959
Speaker 3: and fifty and I did then go talk to my doctor,

472
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 3: say what are what do you recommend here? And the

473
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 3: recommendation is that I continue to do it annually. Yeah,

474
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 3: so that's what I've been That's what I've been doing.

475
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: Medical stuff so fun, super fun.

476
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 3: Uh. Anyway, So yeah, again, not medical advice beyond try

477
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 3: to find a provider that you trust, which I understand.

478
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 3: I mean, we've been focusing on the United States and

479
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 3: the fact that we don't have universal health care, but

480
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 3: I know it can be difficult for people to find

481
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 3: primary care doctors in places that do have universal health

482
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 3: care because of shortages of doctors and things like that.

483
00:28:58,760 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: So I like just.

484
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 3: Situations everywhere. But yeah, Happy Friday. Whatever is happening on

485
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 3: your weekend.

486
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 2: I hope it's good.

487
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 3: We'll be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and something

488
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 3: brand new on Monday. Stuff you Missed in History Class

489
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 3: is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

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00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 3: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

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00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 3: to your favorite shows.