WEBVTT - Why Drugs Are Still for Sale on Instagram 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:02.720 A few weeks ago, I was sitting in a conference 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:05.920 room with my colleague Sarah Frya. She covers Facebook, and 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:09.200 had something to show me. It was an impressive collection 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:13.080 of screenshots of drugs for sale on Facebook and Instagram. 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:15.800 So this is a typical example of an account. He 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.520 has these obvious images of drugs. I think this looks 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:25.000 like cocaine, this little plastic There were hundreds of images 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:29.640 showing piles of pills, bags of meth and cocaine, stacks 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:32.839 of fentanyl patches. In the photo caption or at the 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:35.640 top of the profile page would be all the information 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:38.400 to buy the drugs and have them shipped to your house. 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.639 An activists named Eileen Carey had sent me these files. 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:46.800 I'm constantly hearing about people's problems with Facebook and Instagram, 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:49.120 and I think it's because I've been writing for so 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:53.159 long about how bad they are with policing content. They 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:56.360 hire thousands of people to review what we post online, 0:00:56.480 --> 0:01:01.840 but sometimes there are big, terrifying gaps an enforcement. Eileen 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:04.640 had spotted a big one. Aileen doesn't work for the 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:07.520 police or the government or anything. She came across the 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:11.880 issue through her work in cybersecurity and crisis management, because, 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:15.640 in addition to the vacation picks and brand campaigns and 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:20.360 celebrity posts, Instagram is also a place where illegal drugs 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:24.360 and counterfeit prescription medicines are sold, and it's all out 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:27.119 in the open. To find the stuff, you just need 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:31.119 to search for the right hashtag HASHTAGSANX hashtag, thirty milligrams 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:35.360 hash hag zan x bars, hashtag asticons and hashtag pain killers, 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:41.759 hashtag codein, hashtag hydrocodon hashtag. This is the first episode 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:45.480 in our new season of Decrypted, dedicated to exploring how 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:47.960 the tech industry is pushing the limits of the world 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:51.320 around us. Today, we'll tell you about Aileen's fight to 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:55.760 get Instagram and Facebook to take down posts showcasing drugs 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:59.600 for sale. Despite the explosion of this type of content, 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:03.520 Facebook and Instagram have been slow to react, choosing to 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:07.040 push the limits of what its uses and lawmakers would 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:11.440 tolerate before taking action. I'm Pia Gatkari and I'm Sarah Fryar, 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:18.440 and you're listening to Decrypted. One day, Eileen reached out 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:20.600 to me on Twitter and I agreed to meet her. 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:23.320 It was a rainy day in December and we talked 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:26.680 for two hours straight on a couch at her coworking space. 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:30.360 I grew up in Dobbs Ferry, New York, that same 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:34.280 small three mile town as Mark Zuckerberg. We're the same age. 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:37.560 Aileen had worked on Wall Street for a couple of years. 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:40.839 Then she moved to Silicon Valley. So I moved out here, 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:43.680 thinking I was going to work at Facebook or Google 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:46.360 or you know one of those companies. She ended up 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:50.880 working for an anti counterfeiting company. Basically, it used technology 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:54.320 to search the web for fake versions of its clients products. 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:57.440 It was Eileen's job to make sure the public had 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:01.040 no idea just how many fakes were out there. This 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:05.560 problem of online counterfeits was somewhat new. It was and 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.960 the amount of stuff people were buying online was exploding, 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.440 and along with that, the volume of fake goods being 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:16.800 sold on the internet was exploding to Eileen's biggest client 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:21.760 was the pharmaceutical company Perdue Pharma. The company makes oxycontent, 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:25.640 a narcotic pain killer, which we now know is incredibly addictive. 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:29.079 Eileen already knew about all the drugs being sold online 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.600 because was the year when the FBI shut down the 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:36.640 notorious website called Silk Road, alleging that it should become 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:41.280 a massive online marketplace for buying and selling drugs and guns. 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:44.920 But Eileen discovered that there was another way for thousands 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:47.640 of online sales to take place. It turns out that 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:52.480 it wasn't just counterfeit prescription drugs like OxyContin and percocet, 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:55.960 but all sorts of illegal street drugs that were being 0:03:56.040 --> 0:04:02.840 sold on Instagram. It is misinformation that drug sales happen 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:07.440 entirely on the dark web. Sure, maybe wholesale right, like huge, 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:12.480 huge shipments of of drugs, but direct to consumer purchases 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:17.800 of M D M A of cocaine, of xan x 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:23.280 that occurs on Instagram, on Facebook, this problem is well 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:27.480 known by experts in the space. To put it bluntly, 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:31.840 it's a colossal issue. That's Daniel Bennett, the CEO of 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:35.280 Yellow Brand Protection. He works with some of the biggest 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:37.960 brands in the world to help them keep fake products 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.280 off the Internet. Daniel explained that it's easier to block 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:43.960 counterfeit goods when they're for sale on an e commerce 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.480 website because you have to set up an account before 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:51.080 you can sell anything. With social networks, It's different with Instagram. 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:54.800 In particular. Unlike Facebook, you don't have to use your 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:58.040 personal identity to make an account. All you need is 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:01.919 an email address or a phone number. Social networks, of course, 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:08.839 are are generally more complex than say, for instance, online marketplaces. 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:12.520 Just pure just purely down to the fact that obviously, 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.480 if you go to an online marketplace, you know that 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:19.640 there's commercial activity, you know there's something to sale immediately, 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:24.120 whereas searching on social media, um, you know you're you're 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:26.160 gonna be finding a lot of sentiments, a lot of 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:31.760 discussion about different products. We're often following links through to 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:39.400 online pharmacies or online marketplaces where the actual sale would 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:43.480 take place. Sales of drugs seemed to be proliferating on 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:47.200 all the popular new tech platforms, not just Facebook and Instagram. 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.919 You could find them on Craigslist, Google, Ali Baba, and others. 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:54.080 Part of Alien's job was to work with the tech 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.239 companies to see if they would introduce policies to block 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.880 the sale of drugs on their platforms. Ali Baba and 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:04.240 Chinese e commerce companies they were right there, they were 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.120 right there for enforcing. They were great partners. They were 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.520 working with the pharmacutal companies to remove the counterfeits. Eileen 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:14.560 discovered that e commerce platforms were pretty open to fighting counterfeits. 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:18.080 Craigslist was one of the early platforms to block listings 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:22.520 about prescription drugs. Amazon and Ali Baba have created brand registries, 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:24.680 which is a way for brands to fast track their 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:27.960 reports about fake items and get them taken down faster, 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:32.280 and Google has strict guidelines about what kinds of pharmaceuticals 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.880 can be advertised on its platform. The social networks were 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.920 less willing, so Eileen turned to people she knew to 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:43.680 try to understand why Facebook wasn't taking action. You actually 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.000 knew Facebook employees at this time, and you were having 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:52.480 those conversations with them directly. Yeah, and what was that like? Frustrating? 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:59.280 They you know at the time, it was the I mean, 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:01.680 it's the same kind of book that we hear today 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:07.080 of that. You know, there's there's so much on the platform. 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.280 We're really focused on terrorism, we're doing a you know, 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:13.920 that's that's what the big problem is, that it's free speech. 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.000 That if we start policing one thing, you know, we're 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:19.520 going to have to police all these things. Aileen became 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.680 convinced that Facebook and Instagram were reluctant to act because 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.680 they weren't legally required to do so. What I know 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:32.800 is their legal team was very clear on their policy 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:38.240 when we were working with them that no, they were 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:46.240 not going to proactively enforce against counterfeit pharmaceuticals oxy cotton. Facebook, 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.640 for its part, said it has long standing policies against 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:54.880 attempts at buying, selling, or trading non medical drugs, pharmaceutical drugs, 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.720 or marijuana on Facebook and Instagram, and today it says 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:01.120 it's trying to make this tie of content how to 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.679 to find But one of the common arguments I've heard 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:07.320 is that at the time, the company wanted to make 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.640 sure it wasn't setting a precedent that could be damaging 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:14.400 to its business. If it took down counterfeit drugs, for example, 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:18.679 it might also have to police counterfeit handbags, t shirts, jewelry, 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:22.560 and more. And it took the same approach to illegal drugs. 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:27.320 They don't want to be held liable for anything. So 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.360 it's very similar to the arguments you see about free 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.640 speech and about how they are gonna, you know, police 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.079 free speech. They're not going to take down, you know, 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:40.839 hate speech. Legally, Facebook was in the clear that's because 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:44.800 of a law from ninete called the Communications Decency Acts 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:48.479 Section two thirty. Essentially, it says that the tech platforms 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:51.160 don't need to be held responsible for the content that 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:54.400 users post on their sites. There was also a lawsuit 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.400 from two thousand and eight that sets an important precedent 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:01.360 for the tech industry. Tiffany's the Jewelry and had sued eBay, 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.839 arguing that the marketplace needed to be proactively taking down 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:08.120 counterfeits on its platform, but the courts ruled in favor 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:12.080 of eBay. I think the term is generalized knowledge. eBay 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:16.240 needs more than simply generalized knowledge that its platform was 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:21.160 being used uh to sell counterfeit products. They had to 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:24.000 know or had to have a reason to know that 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:27.640 there was a specific list in that was counterfeit. That's 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.439 Peter Kolosi. He's a partner at the San Francisco law 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:34.480 firm Sidmon and Bancroft, and he specializes in anti counterfeiting. 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:40.400 So when you talk about the Amazon's or Facebook or Instagram, 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:45.760 you know they're all subject to this Tiffany v. eBay 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:50.040 um liability requirement that as long as they have a 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:52.959 process in place to deal with it, then they're not 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:57.760 going to be found to contribute to any trademark infringement 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:05.440 or counterfeiting claim. At the end of Aileen left her 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:08.920 job at the anti counterfeiting company. She decided to start 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:11.680 a company of her own called glass Breakers, which makes 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:15.680 software to empower women in technology. But she was haunted 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.439 by the things she had learned while tracking counterfeits for 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:22.360 Purdue Farmer, and the opioid crisis seemed to be getting 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:26.559 worse with every passing month, not just with counterfeits, but 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.040 first a drug crisis in America today is killing more 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:34.120 people each year than aid, gun deaths or car crashes 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:37.360 did at their peak. We wanted to understand how the 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:41.920 availability of drugs on major tech platforms was affecting communities 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:45.120 hit hardest by the opioid crisis, so we talked to 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:49.800 Jessica Hale. She's an addiction counselor at Awakenings Counseling Center 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:53.840 in Merylville, Indiana, and she said that she's seeing social 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:58.000 networks and multiplayer video games taking over as the simplest 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:01.040 ways for her clients to buy drugs. She also had 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.640 some unrelated developments in the medical community. We're causing even 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:07.400 more people to turn to social media when they were 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:11.640 looking for drugs, you know, norcos and vanax. They they're 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:15.720 easily found that way. Actually, I think it's probably easier 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:19.960 to find them that way because, um, there's so many 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.160 people that are getting cut off from their doctors that 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.280 it's not as easy to get anymore. And to find 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:29.319 somebody in freet it's a lot harder. I think that 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.200 social media just makes it a lot easier for them 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:35.320 to find it. If they they really want to, they 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.239 can find it. Has this changed at all the relationship 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:41.959 people have with a regular street dealer? Oh yes, yeah, 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:46.440 it's it's pretty remarkable. Um, you know, thirty and forty 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.240 years ago, it wasn't anything. You know, people would find 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:54.040 their their drugs by one uh person that was their 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.480 dealer and and but now it's it's just like an advertisement. 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.959 All of these social sites makes it really easy. You 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:05.360 could literally spend twenty minutes on the computer if you're 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:09.439 seriously trying to find some drugs and you could get them. 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:13.400 You just have to just keep going through the different sites. 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.400 It's just out there. It was sobering to hear from Jessica. 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:20.960 Technology and the internet was making it easier than ever 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.640 for people to buy and sell drugs. Jessica told us 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:27.360 that people she was counseling could now just get drugs 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.719 sent to them in the mail, and disappearing messages like 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:34.040 the sort of Snapchat is famous for allowed people to 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:37.319 advertise when they have drugs for sale. The message only 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:39.800 stays up for twenty four hours, so it's pretty hard 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:43.439 to get caught. That's what I'm finding is that that 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:48.160 snampchat thing is is time h so it doesn't stay 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:52.160 up there long enough to draw of our attention. It's 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:56.280 reaching the people that it needs to, but devading some 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.040 of the other people so well. It might be more 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:04.160 more easy to track even on on Instagram or Facebook. 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:08.400 It's harder to track on these new platforms like snap 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:15.360 and um and the video games Fortnite right oh yeah, UM. 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:18.040 I don't know a lot about Fortnite. I do know 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:21.440 that it's an online gaming system and my niece does 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.959 play that, and her boyfriend was able to connect with 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:29.440 people um that would hook up in you know, trade 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:34.840 sell or whatever. It's easier easily to do without getting 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:37.880 caught some spooks. It's there for a second and then 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:40.679 it moves on in the conversation snap said in a 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:44.200 statement that it's completely prohibited to use Snapchat for any 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.920 illegal activities and that accounts selling drugs are an intentional 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:51.040 abuse of the company's terms of service. It added that 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:54.600 such accounts are removed when they're reported, and Epic Games, 0:13:54.720 --> 0:14:03.080 which makes the game Fortnite, declined to comment. In the meantime, 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:06.839 Alien had started searching proactively for counterfeit drugs for sale 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:10.520 on Instagram and was reporting them to the company. This 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.840 went on for a few years. Ailien said she reported 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:18.320 tons of violating accounts that were very obviously showcasing drugs 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:23.480 for sale. Instagram's content moderators either didn't respond or Eileen 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:27.040 would get these generic acknowledgements, saying the post she was 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:31.840 reporting weren't violating any of their rules. We saw the screenshots. 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:35.160 The crisis got worse, and it got worse, and it 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.000 got worse. I would go in, I would open the app, 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:40.240 and I would report on like three to four like 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:43.560 drug dealers, and I would document everything, and it just 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:57.160 nothing was changing, Nothing was changing. Eventually, the FDA started 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.440 speaking publicly about the role tech companies with playing in 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:04.400 the opioid crisis last year. In April, Scott Gottlieb, who 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.200 was the f d A commissioner at the time, called 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:10.640 out Facebook and Instagram by name, along with some of 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.640 the other large tech firms. He called on the company's 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:17.080 to do a better job of monitoring illegal opioid sales 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.240 being advertised on their platforms, and he called for a 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.200 change of mindset across the industry. The f d A 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:27.880 told us that approximately nineties six percent of online pharmacies 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:32.200 selling prescription medicines to US consumers are illegal. The FDA 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.920 also said it screens thousands of parcels at international mail 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:40.480 facilities and has taken action against dozens of websites marketing 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:45.080 unapproved opioids in an effort to combat the crisis. Meanwhile, 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:50.080 around seventeen and into Facebook started to be criticized for 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:54.280 all sorts of content specific issues, from violent videos that 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.280 would go viral to fake news spread by Russian backed 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:01.480 groups ahead of the US presidential election. Aileen wondered why 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:04.600 isn't anyone at the company doing anything still about the 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:08.080 sale of drugs on Instagram. In an effort to get noticed, 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:12.880 she started messaging Facebook executives on Twitter. One day, someone 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.640 finally responded. It was Guy Rosen, a VP at Facebook, 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:19.520 in charge of figuring out how to automate a lot 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.680 of the company's content decisions. He had sent her a 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:28.400 direct message. Eileen showed me screenshots of their conversation. She wrote, 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:31.960 do a search for hashtag fentinel as well as hashtag 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.360 box eyes on I G and you'll see lots of 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:38.000 picks of pills. Those accounts are usually drug dealers. I 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.600 reported these earlier and they are still there. In the 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:45.320 hashtag opiate search there are forty three thousand results. Eileen 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:47.800 also sent examples of the kinds of Instagram plast she 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:52.480 was talking about. Guy wrote back to her, yigs, He said, 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:57.480 this is super helpful. Finally, five years after she first 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:01.240 started badgering Facebook and Instagram, some one was paying attention. 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.880 The searchable hashtags were taken down one day before Mark 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:10.040 Zuckerberg testified in front of Congress about data privacy issues 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:18.400 and Russian election interference. Towards the end of a handful 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.400 of counties in the regions hit hardest by the opioid 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:24.600 crisis reported that there had been a decline in overdose 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:28.840 deaths in recent months. We asked Jessica, the addiction counselor 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.960 in Indiana, whether she thought that action by the social 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:35.680 media companies could have helped. Well, of course it would 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:39.679 be useful, but I don't know that it would be successful. Uh. 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:44.880 The drug dealers, kids seeking or you know, individual seeking substances, 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:49.440 they always find a way around um this situation. So 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.320 if these kids just re up on a different site 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:55.440 under a different name. You know, one of my clients 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:59.880 have got four different Facebook identities, so when one gets 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.520 a down a discus through to another. Then at some 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.440 point the hashtags that Aileen had helped to block went 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:11.400 back up. We're not sure why those hashtags became available again, 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:14.640 but by then people seem to be making new hashtags anyway, 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:18.000 presumably to get around the fact that some popular ones 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.399 have been blocked. The other day, I was able to 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.480 find drugs for sale under misspellings of the drug names 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:26.639 like oxy cotton spelled c O T T O N, 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:29.159 and I noticed a lot of comments about drugs for 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.280 sale under pictures of drugs that people might have actually 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:35.359 been prescribed. When I was looking, I found I was 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:39.480 being redirected to information about recovery and support groups, so 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:43.040 actually helpful content and sometimes but not all the time. 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:46.040 When I tried searching for drug related hashtags, I would 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:48.920 get an automated message from Instagram asking if I needed 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:52.160 any help. That's a relatively new feature that was rolled 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:54.800 out in the fall. Facebook also said it has been 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:58.560 using computer imaging technology to find and remove drug content 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.760 before anyone sees it. It's part of a new goal 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:06.119 to rely on more artificial intelligence for content moderation. The 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:10.600 company singled out hate speech, violence, and graphic content as 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:15.679 specific areas where it has seen some improvement. Today. Alien 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:19.000 doesn't use Instagram or Facebook. She says it causes her 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:22.399 anxiety to even think about it. She was clearly deeply 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:27.200 moved and also emotionally drained by this experience of caring 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:30.560 about something nobody else really seems to be paying attention to. 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:35.040 It's so frustrating to know that nothing is being done, 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:38.359 and so I couldn't I couldn't keep doing it. I 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:43.520 couldn't keep reporting to them about it because A there's 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:45.520 no direct line, so there's no way to actually get 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:51.399 in touch with people there and be It's kind of 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:57.760 hopeless if the people at the company don't care about it. 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.880 Eileen wants the executive a Facebook and Instagram to face 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:07.240 consequences I think that the there has not been true 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:11.440 progress on this because nobody at Instagram is in a 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:14.560 criminal court proceeding. If the founder of the Silk Road 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:19.240 is in jail for drug trafficking, why do social media 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:22.320 companies that are making billions of dollars get a free 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:30.240 pass to allow and again like support, the trafficking of 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:39.359 the legal narcotics that are killing us. We tried to 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:41.840 talk to an executive from Facebook about this issue, but 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:45.760 they declined our request for an interview. Meanwhile, Facebook CEOO 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.640 Cheryl Sandbook was actually asked about the company's responsibility when 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:52.919 it comes to drug sales in a congressional hearing in September. 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.800 It was a question from Senator Joe Mansion of West Virginia. 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.400 He made a direct link between section two thirty that law, 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:05.639 which says platforms are not responsible for what uses post 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:09.680 and the number of people overdosing on illegal drugs. To 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:13.520 what extent do you bear responsibility for the death of 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:17.120 a drug user if they overdosed on drugs received through 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:27.520 your platform? Either one. I'm happy to go. This is 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:31.280 really important to us. The opioid crisis has been devastating 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:34.520 and takes the lives of people in our country and 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:37.840 around the world. It's firmly against our policies to buy 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:42.560 or sell any pharmaceuticals on Facebook, and that includes opioid drugs. 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:47.240 We rely on a combination of machines and people reporting 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:49.320 to take things down, and I think we've seen market 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:52.800 improved geryld Standberg didn't really answer the senator's question, and 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:57.679 neither did CEO Mark Zuckerberg when West Virginia Congressman David 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:01.600 McKinley asked about it during a separate appearance before Congress 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:04.560 a year ago. So my question to you is, when 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:08.400 are you going to stop take down these posts? They're 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:12.159 done on it with illegal digital pharmacies. When are you 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:15.680 going to take them down? Congressman? Right now, when people 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:18.639 report the post us, we will take them down and 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:20.479 have people Why do they have to if you've got 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:23.560 all these twenty thousand people, you know that they're up there, 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:27.560 Where is your requiring, where where is your accountability to 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:32.800 allow this to be occurring, this ravaging this country? Congressman, 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:35.840 I agree that this is a terrible issue, And respectfully, 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:40.040 when they're tens of billions or a hundred billion pieces 0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:43.680 of content that are shared every day, even twenty people 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:45.720 reviewing it can't look at everything. What we need to 0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:48.960 do is build more AI tools that can proactively been 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:51.480 before you're going to take them down. And you have it. 0:22:51.760 --> 0:23:01.960 And so, Sarah, You've spent months reporting this story, and 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:04.639 I'm curious, what do you make of Mark Zuckerberg's argument 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:07.959 that Facebook needs AI tools to be able to monitor 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:11.480 content about drugs and other things. Well, I do think 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:16.520 Facebook wants to delve into this issue with AI, but 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:21.520 it's very slow going and it's never going to be perfect. 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:24.200 The other thing I would note is if you are 0:23:24.880 --> 0:23:27.960 at the head of Facebook and Facebook is your flagship 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:33.080 product and Instagram is the smaller product, and this is 0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:35.760 an issue that is maybe more specific to Instagram, it 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:40.560 just may not seem like the priority for investing AI 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:44.920 tools in. We've seen Facebook invest in counter terrorism, We've 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:47.480 seen them invest in guns, We've seen them invest in 0:23:47.600 --> 0:23:51.359 hate speech because of that genocide and Myanmar that was 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:55.840 that was perpetuated by post on Facebook. But so far, 0:23:56.760 --> 0:23:59.920 though we've seen some change, I haven't seen a mobilization 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:03.080 in on illegal drugs the way I've seen all those 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:06.439 other issues. Yeah, And it's hard to understand that because 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:08.920 when you think about how deadly the opioid crisis has 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:12.400 been in the US, it's in a way you might ask, 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:14.840 what issue is there that's that could be more urgent? 0:24:15.200 --> 0:24:17.119 What do you think of the chances that the government 0:24:17.200 --> 0:24:20.120 might force Facebook by passing some new regulations to take 0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:22.040 more action on this. For the first time in a 0:24:22.160 --> 0:24:24.920 very long time, politicians feel like they can be outspoken 0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:27.359 and critical of tech companies. I think you're right that 0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:30.399 it's one of the only bipartisan issues in Congress right 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:34.000 now is to critique chech companies about how terrible they 0:24:34.040 --> 0:24:37.280 are at policing content. But you know, I've listened to 0:24:37.359 --> 0:24:41.240 those hearings, and everyone has their different pet issue that 0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:45.200 they care deeply about. The senators from West Virginia care 0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:50.360 about this issue, but other senators care more about bias 0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:55.560 against conservatives or against liberals. Others care more about discrimination 0:24:55.720 --> 0:25:00.320 and ads. Others care more about the live shooting like 0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:04.600 the one we recently experienced in New Zealand. I haven't 0:25:04.680 --> 0:25:07.680 seen a coalition to come together. I think the best 0:25:07.800 --> 0:25:10.960 chance we have, and what we've seen is the f 0:25:11.160 --> 0:25:14.000 d A come down hard on this and tell companies 0:25:14.040 --> 0:25:17.040 they need to get their act together. Scott Gottlieb has 0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:19.879 been a force on this, but he just left the 0:25:19.960 --> 0:25:22.320 f d A, so I'm not sure if the next 0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:25.520 leadership is going to be as on top of this issue. 0:25:25.600 --> 0:25:28.200 Hopefully they are. Well, I know you'll keep proposing on 0:25:28.280 --> 0:25:30.840 this very very important issue. So thanks for sharing, you're 0:25:30.840 --> 0:25:40.600 reporting with us, Sarah, and that's it for this week's 0:25:40.640 --> 0:25:44.440 episode of Decrypted. Thanks for listening. If you or someone 0:25:44.520 --> 0:25:47.200 you know is struggling with addiction, the Department of Health 0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:50.520 and Human Services has a twenty four hour national helpline 0:25:50.840 --> 0:25:54.120