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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to cool people who did cool stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'm Miriam Rocheck. I stole this show from Margaret Kiljoy. No,

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Speaker 1: let me out of this barrel that you put me in.

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Speaker 1: Why a barrel? Why a barrel? Indeed, I sees the

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Speaker 1: means of podcast production, and I'm telling Margaret about Sulem

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Speaker 1: schwartz Bard, the early twentieth century anarchist poet, clockmaker, revolutionary assassin,

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Speaker 1: community self defense organizer. What's up? Clockmaker? Also like a

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Speaker 1: second time, just the esis they're double clockmaking? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean he made way more clocks than the assassinated people,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, Yeah, I mean I don't actually know

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Speaker 1: because I haven't heard the story yet, but I believe

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Speaker 1: you know, I haven't run the numbers either. I just

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Speaker 1: assumed so because he was a clockmaker for like twenty

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Speaker 1: five years or something, maybe he only need one really

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Speaker 1: good clock. Yeah. And also joining us is Sophie Lichterman,

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Speaker 1: who is the producer of this show that I have stolen.

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Speaker 1: Co signing the stolen this my accomplice. Yeah, totally partner

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Speaker 1: and said crime. No, I trusted you, You said, Margaret,

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Speaker 1: what's down there in the bottom of the barrel? Magpie

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Speaker 1: don't worry. I'll help you steal it back. Yeah see,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm a two team player, okay, okay, and

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Speaker 1: and I'm a much better crime accomplice than Peter the

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Speaker 1: Painter for those who listened to episode one. For those

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Speaker 1: who didn't listen to episode one, interesting choice to be

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Speaker 1: here listening to episode two, But I'm not going to judge.

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Speaker 1: Why are you here? Maybe they're captive audience like me.

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Speaker 1: Oh anyways, Maria, please please tell us more. All right? So, um,

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Speaker 1: when we left, Sulim had just married a woman named

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Speaker 1: Anna in Paris um and then promptly left to go

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Speaker 1: fight in World War One and been like really mystified

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Speaker 1: that that upset her because sucking dudes, man. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: let's um, let's rejoin him in World War one. The

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Speaker 1: war that went well for everyone. It was great, that

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Speaker 1: was nice. Everyone said after World War One, let's do

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Speaker 1: it again sometime, same same place, same villains, well, no,

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Speaker 1: very different set of villains, but geography geographically yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, like I said, he's in the Foreign Legion

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Speaker 1: and uh he his unit is on the front lines

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Speaker 1: of trench warfare. You know, I think anyone with even

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Speaker 1: a cursory knowledge of twentieth century European history knows that

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Speaker 1: the trenches of France and World War One were just

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Speaker 1: a year's long horror show. Um. His unit is constantly

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Speaker 1: in the kind of battles that everyone seems to be

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Speaker 1: required to describe using the word meat grinder, you know,

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Speaker 1: just awful. He actually writes a poem about this, because

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Speaker 1: he is a poet, and I promised you last episode

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Speaker 1: that we'd hear some of his poetry, and today we will.

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Speaker 1: This poem is about watching a soldier dying in no

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Speaker 1: man's land, um, feudally waving a white flag, watched by

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Speaker 1: both sides and helped by neither. It's unclear in the

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Speaker 1: poem what side the soldier is from. Um. All we

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Speaker 1: know is that he is dying and no one is

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Speaker 1: helping him. Um. This translation is by Ali Damn, who

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Speaker 1: is kind enough to allow me to share it here.

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Speaker 1: So this is an excerpt through field glasses. They seemed

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Speaker 1: large from the camp, the cold evil warrior bandits warriors,

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Speaker 1: watched from both sides, his own friend and the opponent

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Speaker 1: to the enemy. With his last agony, his blood streams,

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Speaker 1: It flows like a well without end. One must see

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Speaker 1: him and rescue him. It is clear that no one

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Speaker 1: will come to save him. This wish of his the

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Speaker 1: last to be heard, to die amongst friend and acquaintance,

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Speaker 1: to lie in the grave with friends wounded. They looked,

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Speaker 1: looked and saw, looked and saw, and let him go.

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Speaker 1: And now the corpse of a raven decomposes, tattered and crumbled,

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Speaker 1: torn to pieces of worm and animal and all types

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Speaker 1: of bird. They carry its flesh and beak and claw.

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Speaker 1: And who would say, of these little bones that this

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Speaker 1: was the one who a moment ago lived, struggled and

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Speaker 1: begged to be saved from the terrible suffering. All this

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Speaker 1: left is the flag, white and fluttering. It tells us

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Speaker 1: that a person became exhausted, he suffered bitterly, and fought

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Speaker 1: the suffering, and with his life he must now part.

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Speaker 1: That's brutal. Yeah, so um, you know these are the

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Speaker 1: these are the experiences that he is having. His unit

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Speaker 1: is sent to Arras and I don't know how to

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Speaker 1: pronounce that, and no one can make me pronounce it correctly.

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Speaker 1: In Um during what turns out to be one of

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Speaker 1: the bloodiest days in the history of the French army,

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Speaker 1: most of his unit is killed or wounded. There are

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Speaker 1: five thousand frenchly journeys that go into this battle, and

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Speaker 1: at the end of it, only nine and thirty are

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Speaker 1: still fit to fight. The army declares this a victory um,

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Speaker 1: which Stolem respond to by writing another poem um with

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Speaker 1: the lines enough enough with being the victor, enough with

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Speaker 1: swimming and blood, and he meant it. He put his

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Speaker 1: money where his poetry was. His unit refused to return

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Speaker 1: to the fight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He does like two

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Speaker 1: weeks in jail for this, which at this point he

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Speaker 1: can probably do standing on his head. Yeah, it's better

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Speaker 1: than chance of dying. Right. They're like, you're in jail

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Speaker 1: and he's like, oh no, I'm in a place where

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Speaker 1: no one is shooting at me. Totally. But they don't

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Speaker 1: get punished too badly because they were like not the

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Speaker 1: first unit to go on strike um. And at this

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Speaker 1: point the French army was like, ship, we have a

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Speaker 1: mutiney in our hands. We can't crack down on this

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Speaker 1: too hard, which is good. But anyway, he gets transferred

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Speaker 1: soon after from the foreign Legion to the regular French Army,

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Speaker 1: which means now he's like fighting alongside frenchman and not

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Speaker 1: foreigners like him. He's very popular in the new unit. Um,

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Speaker 1: partly because he's by all accounts, just a nice guy

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Speaker 1: if you're not, you know, married to him. And he's

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Speaker 1: like friendly, funny, he's encouraging. You know. He speaks terrible French,

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Speaker 1: which everybody seems to find sort of charming. So things

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Speaker 1: have changed in France. Yeah, that is, I speak no French,

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Speaker 1: so I have not been subject to the consequences of

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Speaker 1: speaking bad French. But more importantly, maybe he volunteers for

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Speaker 1: dangerous missions so other people don't have to go um,

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Speaker 1: which definitely contributes to his popularity. And he says about this,

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Speaker 1: I'm a Jew, and my conduct has to be exemplary.

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Speaker 1: I must leave the French with a good impression. So

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Speaker 1: you know, he's trying to be like one of the

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Speaker 1: good ones. Yeah. The French in the unit call him

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Speaker 1: a nickname, which is the little Clockmaker. Um, which I

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Speaker 1: won't try to say in French because it would just

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Speaker 1: be like me making a bunch of like raw noises

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Speaker 1: like at this point, um. Yeah, yeah, but I was

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Speaker 1: saying all little clockmaker, but the little Clockmaker, Yeah, I understand.

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Speaker 1: It is always allowed to make fun of the French. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's always funny. It's never not funny to try to

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Speaker 1: speak languages you don't. Yeah, it is kind of This

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Speaker 1: is kind of like a gross ignorant American. Uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're playing, isn't it. Mm hmmm, Um that I do

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Speaker 1: about the British all the time, and I pretend like

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Speaker 1: it's more okay there. But it's usually Americans trying to

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Speaker 1: pick the few countries that white Americans trying to pick

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Speaker 1: the few countries that they can point to and be like, well,

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Speaker 1: you're sort of worse than us, so we can make

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Speaker 1: fun of you. But it's not true. It's just not

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Speaker 1: true at all. Um, I rescind my making fun of

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Speaker 1: the French, and I don't know saying about my ignorance.

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Speaker 1: I just must speak French. Yeah no I don't. I

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Speaker 1: wish I spoke French. I wish I spoke French too.

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Speaker 1: I wish I spoke everything that would be great. So

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Speaker 1: really I'm making fun of myself for not speaking Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this particular other language, This introspective moment brought to you

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Speaker 1: by anyway, Um, please continue. Um. So they call him

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Speaker 1: the little Clockmaker, which I honestly, I think it's kind

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Speaker 1: of a cute nickname that probably beat the ship out

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Speaker 1: of the other nicknames on offer for the foreign Jew

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Speaker 1: who didn't speak great French and had weird subversive politics.

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Speaker 1: Fair He is also known for being a very good shot.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if that will come up again in this story.

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Speaker 1: I thought he was a passive it's not. He's never

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Speaker 1: claimed to be a pacifist as the one I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think he actually did at some point, But like,

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Speaker 1: he has done nothing but beat the ship out of

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Speaker 1: anti Semites, like and pull off terrible heists. No. After

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Speaker 1: a while, Shillan developed what was at the time called

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Speaker 1: shell shock you know, and what we would today call

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Speaker 1: what the funk do you expect would happen to people

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Speaker 1: subjected to the horrors of industrialized trench warfare for months

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Speaker 1: on end yep, and he is in a state of

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Speaker 1: suicidal despair, which he somehow survives to be transferred away

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Speaker 1: from the front where he has been for well over

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Speaker 1: a year closer to two actually. At this point he

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Speaker 1: wins the Crows de Guerre with the citation excellent Soldier

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Speaker 1: always volunteered for dangerous duty. On the first of March

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixteen, at La Chapelette while guard. While standing guard

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Speaker 1: at the end of an advanced trench, he was seriously

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Speaker 1: wounded while throwing grenades. Um, you know, being appreciated now,

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Speaker 1: those wounds. Yeah, not a coward, right, Uh, this is

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Speaker 1: this is the thing we know about him. Um. Those

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Speaker 1: wounds actually included a pierced lung, a shattered scapula, and

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Speaker 1: damage to the nerves controlling his left arm. The doctors

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Speaker 1: actually did not expect him to survive, but he did,

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Speaker 1: and he spent the next year and a half slowly

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Speaker 1: recovering and getting to the point where he could like

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Speaker 1: go to work for a little bit at a clockmaker's. Um.

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Speaker 1: He gradually got up to a fifteen hour work week,

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Speaker 1: which honestly, like World War One injuries aside of fifteen

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Speaker 1: hour work week sound stope, and it's about the right

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Speaker 1: number of hours to yeah, like that seems super reasonable.

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Speaker 1: So you know, he's plugging away at his physical recovery

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Speaker 1: when hey, when didn't you know it, the Russian Revolution happens.

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Speaker 1: What a whole revolution, a whole revolution, you know. So

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Speaker 1: obviously Sholom is like, well, I'm getting in on that right,

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Speaker 1: and it comes to join him and they had to Russia.

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Speaker 1: Hell yeah, he tries to join the fighting, but he

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Speaker 1: can't yet because you know, he was just shot almost

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Speaker 1: all the way to death, and he's he's just worked

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Speaker 1: his way up to doing a fifteen hour work week.

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Speaker 1: He's not physically ready to be back in war. So

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Speaker 1: they had to Ukraine and they have time for a

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Speaker 1: quick reunion with Sholom's father before Slim, you know, his

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Speaker 1: spighty sense goes off again and he's like, yep, but

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Speaker 1: grams are coming. His father's fucking cool. Oh, his father

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Speaker 1: is cool too. Yeah. I really like this multi generational

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Speaker 1: like throw down Jews, you know, like, yeah, that's fucking cool. Yeah. Um.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, the hardcore band they you know, they

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Speaker 1: get organizing defenses together. Um, and they're gonna they fight

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Speaker 1: on the barricades again. Throw down Jews. The Russian Civil War,

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Speaker 1: you know, which is what this period of the Russian

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Speaker 1: Revolution is called, where multiple sides are fighting in an

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Speaker 1: incredibly complicated conflict, which I think is best summed up

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Speaker 1: by the roughly fifty thou hours devoted to it by

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Speaker 1: Mike duncan over on the Revolutions podcast. It was overall

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Speaker 1: an absolutely terrible time and place to be Jewish almost

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Speaker 1: everyone is committing programs and we'll talk more about that

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Speaker 1: in a little bit, but right now, um, focusing on

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Speaker 1: the the organizing that Sholim is doing. It was wildly successful.

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Speaker 1: He got the support of the religious Jews this time.

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Speaker 1: They contribute a lot of material support, and they hastily

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Speaker 1: organized Jewish militia actually manages to fight back and scare

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Speaker 1: off the attackers because both the secular Jews and the

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Speaker 1: religious Jews like realize their common enemy of anti Semitism,

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Speaker 1: and like figure out their strengths and work together. Yeah yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: and he and his dad man the barricades together again,

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Speaker 1: you know, years after having done it the first time.

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Speaker 1: I love it. Like good dads are like rare on

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Speaker 1: the ground, and so I really like them. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: I know they sometimes get a little bit too much credit,

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Speaker 1: a little too easily because because they're rare. I'm not

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Speaker 1: trying to you know what I think. I think manning

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Speaker 1: the barricades alongside your son goes a little above like

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Speaker 1: the bear minimum total Dad's totally Yeah, Um, I think

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Speaker 1: it's super touching. And they they also like do a

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Speaker 1: little bit of bonding on a little kids these days.

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Speaker 1: NG together. Shulm complains that the young Jews who show

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Speaker 1: up to fight, He's like thirty two at this point.

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Speaker 1: By the way, old as we're quote reared in a dark,

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Speaker 1: poisoned atmosphere, without faith, without revolutionary tradition, without ideals, nourished

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Speaker 1: only by the bitter present of a chaotic today, which

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Speaker 1: sounds exactly like a boomer description of TikTok. They're not

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Speaker 1: religious enough and they're not revolutionary enough, like my generation

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Speaker 1: where I was the only one who was both of

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Speaker 1: those things exactly. Alright, alright, guy, but he did almost

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Speaker 1: he did get like shot to death and then survived,

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Speaker 1: so you know, yeah, yeah he can kids these days.

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Speaker 1: You know, I won't. I'm not. I'm not here to

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Speaker 1: stop him. Yeah, they were on his lawn, after all,

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Speaker 1: they were on his lawn. They were manning the barricades

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Speaker 1: on his lawn. But like still, yeah, like, don't get

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Speaker 1: off my law on continue to do that. But also

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Speaker 1: you need more revolutionary tradition and also faith. I mean

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Speaker 1: this is like I'm basically probably already at this stage myself,

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Speaker 1: So I can't really talk ship. Yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I just think it's funny, how like criticism of the

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Speaker 1: youth never once has changed. Yeah, No, I mean that's

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Speaker 1: because the youth are continuously incorrect. Um. And that's why

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Speaker 1: soon the Cool Zone podcast, Um the youth what they're

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Speaker 1: doing wrong and what I would do differently, sponsored by

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Speaker 1: old man Yells at Cloud. He's gonna say anyway, soon

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Speaker 1: after this, his father actually dies of natural causes, and

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Speaker 1: we actually don't It's hard to say exactly when because

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Speaker 1: Sulem never wrote about it. Huh. He wrote about so

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Speaker 1: much other stuff, but he's so devastated by this he

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Speaker 1: can't even really talk about it. So he ends up

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Speaker 1: finding his place fighting in the immigrant anarchist section of

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Speaker 1: Odessa's Red Guard. Not to be confused with the Red Army.

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Speaker 1: There are different things. The Red Guard is a unit

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Speaker 1: that this part that he's fighting in is made up

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Speaker 1: mostly of anarchists and Jews. As you can imagine, it

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Speaker 1: is a tough position to be in. You know, Bolsheviks

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Speaker 1: and Czarists alike are not fans of either anarchists or Jews.

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Speaker 1: But the Red Guard fought alongside the Red Army at

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Speaker 1: times they were decentralized and independent. But do you know

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Speaker 1: what would help the Red Guard keep up their fighting

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Speaker 1: spirit more than anything else. Well, what is that, Margaret?

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Speaker 1: What if there was a simple way to grow calories

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Speaker 1: in your own backyard that you could then eat and

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Speaker 1: sustain an army on the march? They store, well, they

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Speaker 1: famously never get blite. It is the potato. Sounds intriguing.

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Speaker 1: Well more, if you're interested in potatoes, I suggest you

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Speaker 1: investigate the concept of the potato. Who is the sponsor

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Speaker 1: of today's podcast? That's nice. I'm glad you have such

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Speaker 1: a wholesome sponsor. Yeah, only wholesome sponsors. Um, if any

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Speaker 1: else go through. If you hear any non wholesome sponsors,

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Speaker 1: that's because you're incorrect, And actually the sponsors are wholesome

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Speaker 1: and your own ethical alignment is incorrect. That's how that works, right,

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Speaker 1: sounds right? Yeah? Yeah, no, notes, Well, here's here's the

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Speaker 1: rest of the potato themed ads. And we are back

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Speaker 1: from interrupting Miriam in the middle of her sentence. Please continue,

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Speaker 1: all right, So, um, I was talking about you know,

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Speaker 1: Sholom has just joined the Red Guard, which is not

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Speaker 1: the Red Army. Keep that in mind. And when when

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Speaker 1: he joined the Red Guarden, Odessa had three jobs. The

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Speaker 1: first one is keep order whatever the stual funk that

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Speaker 1: means protect the factories and prevent pogroms. So one is

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Speaker 1: really excited about one of those tasks. I couldn't say

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Speaker 1: which factories big work. But he gets more and more

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Speaker 1: involved in the fighting, and he's coming increasingly into leadership roles,

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Speaker 1: which had never happened when he was fighting in World

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Speaker 1: War One. You know, he hated the fighting. He found

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Speaker 1: it miserable, and he never advanced beyond the rank of private.

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Speaker 1: But now you know, his heart is really in the

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Speaker 1: fighting and he's he's getting really involved. Um. He also

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Speaker 1: gets involved in a project of requisition ing rich people's

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Speaker 1: ship to support the revolution, and he takes over a

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Speaker 1: house or like a mansion. I guess to how is

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Speaker 1: something called the free Rationalist Children's school and shelter, because

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Speaker 1: this is like the peak of bad revolutionary names for

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Speaker 1: things are. But what I really love about this, though,

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Speaker 1: is that the rich lady who owns the house, she's

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Speaker 1: still there. They haven't kicked her out, just like guess what,

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Speaker 1: we're housing and teaching kids here now. And at first

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Speaker 1: she's pissed because she's like, oh no, I'm a rich lady.

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Speaker 1: Where will I keep all my diamond studded ponies with

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Speaker 1: all these free rationalist orphans in the way, you know.

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Speaker 1: But she ends up being so charmed by Salim's whole

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Speaker 1: deal and the importance of what they're doing that she's

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Speaker 1: finally like, okay, fine, you can all hang out here,

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Speaker 1: and then she ends up working alongside them to help.

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Speaker 1: This is the coolest part of the story so far.

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Speaker 1: I know, it sounds exactly like a bullshit leftist dream

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Speaker 1: of what happens during the revolution. This is like I

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Speaker 1: would write this in fiction and then people will be like,

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Speaker 1: uh huh, of course, But no, that rules. That makes

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Speaker 1: so much sense because it's not like you've got to

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Speaker 1: get out of the house because everyone needs a bedroom.

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Speaker 1: She just had a lot of them. Yeah, they're just like,

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Speaker 1: got these kids moving them in and like He's like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm rich, but I'm not a total piece of ship.

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Speaker 1: He ends up helping. Yeah, so Slim heads off soon,

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Speaker 1: Comrade Sofia. Maybe I don't think Comrade Sophia would own

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Speaker 1: a mansion. That doesn't sound like the Comrade Sofia. I

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Speaker 1: know that's true. That's true. Um, so he ends up

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Speaker 1: heading never mind? Sorry was he? I honestly if he was,

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Speaker 1: she probably would have liked him less because his history

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Speaker 1: of treating women he's romantically involved with not great. Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: so all I know so far is that his wife

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Speaker 1: didn't want him to join World War One, and he

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Speaker 1: wanted to join World War one, so he did it anyway, Margaret.

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Speaker 1: He didn't even consult her. He just did it and

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Speaker 1: then was like and then she was like you did what?

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Speaker 1: And he's like, why do you have feelings about this? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I guess they're making a life together, but like, I

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Speaker 1: do feel like even in a marriage, if you decided

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Speaker 1: to go join a war, that's like kind of on

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Speaker 1: on you do they have kids? It's totally it's totally

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Speaker 1: his decision. The thing that, well, we're gonna there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be more of this later. You're going to see this

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Speaker 1: as as a pattern. But it's more like, you know,

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Speaker 1: he makes this major decision that like it is clearly

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Speaker 1: going to affect her, and then is not only like

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Speaker 1: why are you mad? But he's sort of like, I

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Speaker 1: feel like I should be getting a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: like hero worship for the fact that I'm going off

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Speaker 1: to fight, and instead you're having feelings about like your life,

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Speaker 1: which is honestly super selfish, right, and she was actually

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Speaker 1: right about World War One in the first place. In

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Speaker 1: the end, anyway, he this is actually real bad Okay,

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Speaker 1: I see okay, okay. So you know, so he's taken

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Speaker 1: over house. He's raising kids, other people's kids. Yeah, well, um,

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Speaker 1: I think I think all other people who are no

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Speaker 1: longer alive's kids. Um, I think they're orphans. So that's

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Speaker 1: what he's doing. But then he ends up heading joining

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Speaker 1: another anarchist battalion, um, and heading off to the front again.

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Speaker 1: Just because we can't be this far into an episode

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Speaker 1: about the Russian Civil War without ship talking. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: state communists. I should mention that one of the groups

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Speaker 1: of anarchist Volunti's fighting alongside later end up being betrayed

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Speaker 1: and killed in their sleep by the Bolsheviks who they

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Speaker 1: were fighting alongside at the time, because yikes, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: speaking of bad ship people were doing. Um. I think

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Speaker 1: it's time to get back to the subject of programs,

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Speaker 1: because that's that we're really entering that part of the

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Speaker 1: story here. And um, you know, I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of Americans don't really know what a program is. I

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Speaker 1: think people know that they were violent attacks on Jewish communities,

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Speaker 1: but like, the full horror and violence of them is

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Speaker 1: something I honestly didn't fully understand until I was doing

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Speaker 1: this research. A lot of American imagination of programs, I think, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: comes from Fiddler on the Roof, which is a musical,

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Speaker 1: not a history piece, where program is like, oh, the

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Speaker 1: Russians come and they break all your dishes, and then

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Speaker 1: you move to America and one of them marries your

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Speaker 1: daughter and you sing a song about it, you know,

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Speaker 1: And like, obviously I knew that was a very sanitized version,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it was also from prior to the

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Speaker 1: outbreak of the Civil War, But reading the accounts of

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Speaker 1: these programs to this research honestly still shocked me. Um.

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Speaker 1: In addition to massacres, there was mass sexual violence, which

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Speaker 1: was a huge part of these attacks. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: women were raped in front of their families and then killed.

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Speaker 1: Babies were killed, people were tortured on mass um. There

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Speaker 1: are accounts of people being buried alive like this is

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Speaker 1: it is. I can't overstate how horrific this was. Who's

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Speaker 1: perpetrating these programs during the Civil War? That is the

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Speaker 1: very next paragraph. So it's important to understand here, like

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Speaker 1: these programs are not often are not always organized in

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Speaker 1: the sense that a commanding officer of any army is like, hey,

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Speaker 1: go and attack that Jewish community, um, so much as

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Speaker 1: the soldiers being like, let loose to do that. Also,

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's not soldiers. Also, sometimes it's just civilians. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's just mobs. The only people actively preventing programs, as

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Speaker 1: far as I can see at this point, are Jewish

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Speaker 1: groups and anarchists, um, notably the forces fighting under Nestor

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Speaker 1: mak Noo, Ukrainian anarchists and all around great guy. I would,

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Speaker 1: I would argue, even a cool person who did cool stuff. Yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: future friend of the pod nest mak No, I would

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Speaker 1: think so um. He not only had a lot of

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Speaker 1: Jews in his army and forbade his fighters from attacking

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Speaker 1: Jewish communities, he actually would defend Jewish communities and punish

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Speaker 1: perpetrators of programs. Okay um. Now, just for the raw numbers,

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Speaker 1: about a hundred thousand Jews were killed overall in the

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Speaker 1: programs of the Russian Civil War. Fifty thousand of those

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Speaker 1: deaths were in Ukraine, and the Ukrainian forces accounted for

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Speaker 1: about of all programs in that region, Like the Ukrainian

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Speaker 1: forces were the people perpetrating. Yes, we're people perpetrating of

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Speaker 1: the programs in Ukraine which killed fifty people, okay. And

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Speaker 1: so these are when you say Ukrainian forces with not armies,

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Speaker 1: is that the Red army and the White army? Is this? No, No,

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Speaker 1: that's the that's Ukrainian forces fighting for Ukraine. This is

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Speaker 1: the Ukrainian Nationalist Army, which is fighting against I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to Russian civil war is a mess. So there's the

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Speaker 1: Red Army and the Black Army which is the Bolsheviks,

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Speaker 1: and the White army. So the and the White army

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Speaker 1: which is bizarrests okay, the White Army is the Cizarrest

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Speaker 1: And then you have the Ukrainian Nationalist Army, who are

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Speaker 1: what the greens or something. I'm completely lost on the

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Speaker 1: color scale at this point, but there is a Ukrainian

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Speaker 1: nationalist force um separate from the you know, not not

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00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: nester mock. No. Yeah. But and I also, like I

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Speaker 1: want to say, I'm you know, I'm bringing this up

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Speaker 1: and like this feels like a very contemporarily, this feels

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Speaker 1: like a difficult thing to be talking about and like

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Speaker 1: this moment in history when like accusations of anti Semitism

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Speaker 1: are being used by Russia to ustify the invasion of Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: We all know that's bullshit, I think listeners to this

422
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 1: podcast hopefully no, that's bullshit. And so when I say

423
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 1: that the Ukrainian Army during the Russian Civil War was

424
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: perpetrating atrocities against Jews, UM, that should not be taken

425
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 1: as a statement of like what is happening now? That

426
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: feels too obvious to need to say, but I'm saying

427
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 1: it anyway. Sadly, so, those forces account for about of

428
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 1: the programs, the czarrest White Army about sevent and at

429
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: least officially, the Communist Red Army is not supposed to

430
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: be committing programs, there's like rules against it and ship

431
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: according to the leadership, but they still account for nine

432
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: percent of all programs, and the remaining or so are

433
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 1: just unaffiliated assholes mobs using the chaos of war as

434
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: an opportunity to do some of the violence that they

435
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: had been doing in this region for generations. UM And

436
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 1: the programs were also not all equal either, which is

437
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 1: important to understand. You know, there there were pulgrams that

438
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: were essentially mostly like historic there were programs that were

439
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: mostly attacks on property that we're just like, hey, we

440
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: don't like you, or or we're small scale violence, and

441
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: then numbre ones that were you know, full on massacres.

442
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: On average, thirty eight people were killed per Ukrainian Army program,

443
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: twenty five per White Army program, and only seven per

444
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 1: Red Army program. So in addition to committing more programs,

445
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: the Ukrainian forces are committing much more violent ones. These

446
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: numbers come from VO which is a fantastic research of

447
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: resource on Yiddish history, which you can find a EVO

448
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: dot org y I v O dot org. So that's

449
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: that's kind of the situation um right now. Now in

450
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: Sholem is in Odessa again, he's recovering from Typhus, and

451
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 1: he gets word that about ten members of his extended family,

452
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: including one of his uncles who he was really close to,

453
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: are among the many, many people who have been killed

454
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: in this horrifying wave of pogroms. He writes to his

455
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: cousin in America to tell him that his father is

456
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: dead and unable to rejoin the fighting. He said that

457
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: he was only able to quote bite his lip in pain.

458
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: Now Odessa is under the control of the Bolsheviks now um,

459
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: and even though he doesn't really like them, he's willing

460
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: to work with them. Um. So once recovered he starts

461
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 1: he resumes his work of organizing kindergartens and orphanages. Cool. Yeah,

462
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: I really like this about him. Like how many dudes

463
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 1: comes into revolution are like also out there ensuring adequate

464
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: childcare mid revolution? Yeah, he he genuinely loves this work. Um.

465
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: I think he probably would have happily continued doing it

466
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: for the rest of the war, just like making sure

467
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,719
Speaker 1: that like all the kids in Odessa had milk. But

468
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: reports of pograms keep coming in and he just can't

469
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 1: stay in organized kindergartens when the is happening, So he

470
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 1: joins another mostly Jewish anarchist division and heads back to

471
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: the front to fight back. This is like the dark

472
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: part of the story, by the way, In case you

473
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 1: couldn't tell, His unit arrives in a city called Cherkas,

474
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: which had been hit by the Ukrainian forces. It had

475
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: had a population of about fifteen thousand shoes, of whom

476
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,959
Speaker 1: one thousand had been killed. When an old Jewish man

477
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: sees how shocked the arriving troops are. He says, why

478
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: are you so surprised, and then tells them that this

479
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: place actually got off easy, that in towns and villages

480
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: with smaller Jewish populations, the Jewish communities had been wiped

481
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: out completely. Yepuck. Now Shulem witnesses the aftermaths of more programs,

482
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: and he has absolutely devastating experiences um which he writes

483
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: about some of them later in Yiddish publication called The

484
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: Worker's Friend. He writes them as like little short stories,

485
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: like vignettes. Um. I kind of I want to talk

486
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: about two of them in particular, which again I'm getting

487
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: this from Kelly Johnson's ortation about Schalm Scharstbard. But I

488
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: think they're really interesting, like especially in combination. They tell

489
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: us a lot about both what he's going through and

490
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: like how he's processing it. So both these stories, which

491
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: are you know, both true stories, are titled with words

492
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: said to him by a person that he meets in

493
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: the course of the story. The first is called The

494
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: Uncircumcised Will Hear and describes Sholem finding an old Jewish

495
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: man alone in the ruins of his home, having lost

496
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: everyone and everything, and Sholem starts to weep, and the

497
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: old man admonishes him not to cry in front of

498
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: the non Jews around them, saying, don't cry, my child.

499
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: The uncircumcised will hear H And this um this clearly

500
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: stuck with Shalom, and I think it resonated with how

501
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: you know, he's been at war for years now, basically continuously,

502
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: and he keeps hearing about and seeing all these horrible

503
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: things happening to people around him, to his community, to

504
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: his family, and he feels like he just has to

505
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: keep this brave you know, soldier persona on when all

506
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: he us to do is grieve and rage. And this

507
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: old man is echoing the voice in his head telling

508
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: him to keep it together, which is devastating. Now. The

509
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: other story involves him seeing to feel in and talus,

510
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: which are Jewish ritual objects scattered in the courtyard of

511
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: the home of a well off non Jewish peasant um

512
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: and show him assuming that this guy has participated in

513
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: a pogrom and and looted a Jewish home. Angrily confronts him,

514
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,959
Speaker 1: threatening to shoot him, and the man is just like,

515
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: I haven't done anything. Go away, even at gunpoint. And

516
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: finally this peasant breaks down and confesses what he thinks

517
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: shol M is accusing him of, which is that he

518
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: is hiding two of his Jewish neighbors in his home

519
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: and begs stole him, who he thinks is another soldier

520
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: there to kill them, to spare their lives and show him.

521
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: Of course, reveals that he is also a Jew and

522
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: speaks to the hidden neighbors in Yiddish so that they

523
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: know that the it's safe to come out, and they

524
00:30:54,920 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: all laugh with relief at the nearly fatal misunderstanding. H uh.

525
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: And the story takes its name from what the peasants

526
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: says after they've all shared a meal together, which is,

527
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: by God, a comedy. This um, this well fits what

528
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: you've been describing as Jewish humor to me, right, yeah,

529
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: I think like this. Uh. These stories combine darkness, despair,

530
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: and grief in a way that and and humor in

531
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: a way like humor at the absurdity of how horrible

532
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: the situation is in a way that is very Jewish. Um.

533
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: And I think it shows that like Solan personally, despite

534
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: all of the horror and all of his anger, is

535
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: not losing his love for humanity, right, like he does

536
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: still showcase the story where a non Jew comes to

537
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: his neighbor's aid and also like nearly gets killed through

538
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: a misunderstanding. But yeah, so his unit keeps fighting against

539
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: the armies that are opposing the revolution and committing grahams,

540
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: including uh and this is important. The forces under the

541
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: command of a Ukrainian officer named Simon Petlura. Okay, yeah,

542
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: remember that name. Um, he will become Damnit Margaret Simon

543
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: pet Leora, Simon Petleora. Okay, don't worry, I'll say it

544
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: a bunch of more times in this story. He's going

545
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: to become important. His unit suffers defeat after defeat, and

546
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: Slim's unit is eventually disbanded. He heads back to Kiev

547
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: along with many Jewish refugees were fleeing Petliora's forces, and

548
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: he manages to get back to Odessa where Anna is

549
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: waiting for him, and he goes on a boat. Are

550
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: you ready for this? This is like the big like done,

551
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: done done moment of the story on a boat called

552
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: the Sophia. Comrade Sophia bought a boat. Yeah, Comrade Sophia's

553
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: back and she's a boat now. Yeah, what if she

554
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: was about the whole time. You know, it doesn't say

555
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: any word that she wasn't a vote. Yeah, whoa, all right, yeah,

556
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean anything. I just like it. Um. So, Unfortunately,

557
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: when he gets to Odessa, it is now under the

558
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: control of the White Army, the Czarist forces, and Solan's

559
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: name is very much on a list of people to

560
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: hunt down and kill because he was listed as an

561
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: official due to his work feeding kids. And obviously, you know,

562
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: you can't let people who feed kids get away with

563
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: that ship. What's next not killing people based on their

564
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: ethnic origin? All right, you can't let that stand. Chaos. Yeah. Now,

565
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: Luckily for him, because of his service in the French Army,

566
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: he's able to get passage back to France where he

567
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: will be safe. He and Anna take that opportunity and

568
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: they go back to Paris. Um. It's the end of December,

569
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 1: and he has been either fighting, recovering from wounds, or

570
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: organizing revolutionary infrastructure sometimes all three basically NonStop. Since that's intense,

571
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: Yeah right, take a break, Yeah, you know how I

572
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: should take a break? Oh perfect, thank you, thank you.

573
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: That was actually like on ironically, that was a very

574
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: good ad transition, which I have now ruined. Yeah, draw

575
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: attention to these sorts of things. This show is sponsored

576
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:36,720
Speaker 1: by the concept of advertising. Our sponsors are all advertisers,

577
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: and this is the most honest that any of the

578
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 1: transitions I've ever done has been. This podcast is sponsored

579
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: by honesty, not to be confused with Honest Tea, which

580
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: is a brand of iced tea that I don't like.

581
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: I don't like it either, unless it's one of the

582
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 1: sponsors that's about to follow, in which case we love drink. Yeah.

583
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: Because we're sponsored by the concept of honesty, the advertisers,

584
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: we cannot attest one way or the other to their

585
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: honesty unless they're honesty. I tried to make the same

586
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: joke y'all did, but didn't work as well. Here's some

587
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 1: ads and we are back. You were just talking about

588
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: how Sholom could use a break after all of that fighting,

589
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: and he takes one. Yeah self care. Yeah, for the

590
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: next six years things are quiet where which in Paris

591
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 1: he's uh, he's got an army pension and us working

592
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 1: as a seamstress. That gets them enough money for stol

593
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 1: him to open his own little clockmaker's shop. Yeah, you know,

594
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: so now he's got like stability. He owns a business

595
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: which he has like a ton of anarchist guilt about, obviously,

596
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: but he's got stability and that's great. And I wanted

597
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: to be just like a creepy clock shot up in

598
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: between two weird old bookstores where like bats are heard

599
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: every now and then you are so goth and you're

600
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: talking about I'm not recording this in a dark room

601
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: in front of a mirror and some drapery h. My

602
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: computer is literally on a coffin right now. Tell if

603
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: that's a joke or not. No, it's not. My computer

604
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: was a coffee table, and where I am currently recording

605
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: is a coffin. Great, but comrades over. I don't know

606
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: that whisper came through or not. If it didn't, then

607
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: you all in the audience will just have to wonder

608
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: what I said. I I love that for you. Why

609
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: don't you have a coffee table that's a coffin? Because

610
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 1: I've only recently become a person who stays in one

611
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 1: place and I have yet to um date someone who

612
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 1: buys me a coffin. That is the origin of the

613
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: often that my computer is on. You. You need to

614
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: prioritize that. Anyway, I do what if it was a

615
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: coffin maker, we had it, there was the anarchist undertaker,

616
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: no grave rock. I think you need less training to

617
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: be a coffin maker, like no shade to coffin makers,

618
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 1: but like I think that probably takes less training than

619
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: being a clockmaker. Coffins have fewer working fewer moving parts.

620
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:28,439
Speaker 1: I think that's true. Yeah, so anyway, he's he's making

621
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: clocks though, but he's also you know, wrestling with a lot.

622
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: He's he's seen all this killing and destruction and he

623
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,919
Speaker 1: doesn't understand why more people aren't as fired up about

624
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: it as he is. So for the next couple of years,

625
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: while making clocks, he mostly writes. He publishes stories and

626
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: poetry in Yiddish journals, and he's very active in the

627
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: anarchist expat community. He meets and writes about Emma Goldman,

628
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: friend of the show, and he gets along great with

629
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: her despite not agreeing on everything. And we're gonna again

630
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: come back to that as a theme. Wait, you can

631
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: get along with people you don't agree with everything about. Yeah,

632
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: it's a pretty innovative concept. But um sometimes he hangs

633
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,479
Speaker 1: out with and works alongside of people who he doesn't

634
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,359
Speaker 1: agree with. One of everything. And he doesn't even like

635
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 1: go on Twitter and talk shit about them or the

636
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 1: clear of them enemies. It's very very unhinged behavior, bizarre.

637
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: It seemed to have worked. Maybe we should try that. Listen,

638
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 1: I'm willing to give it a shot. Okay. So through

639
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: all of this he remains haunted by what he saw

640
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: during and following all of those programs. He describes the

641
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: memories as quote, a bloody, festering wound that cannot heal,

642
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,720
Speaker 1: and his actual literal wound from the war also starts

643
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: acting up and for a while he's coughing up blood.

644
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: Which is this is it is a decade after the fact,

645
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: and honestly for a poet, very lazy metaphor his body

646
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: pulled off there. It's true. But hear me out. You

647
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 1: were claiming that I was exaggerating when I would suggest

648
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 1: that his clock shop would be very goth. But you

649
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,280
Speaker 1: have now described a person who specifically writes about loss

650
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: and death, someone who's completely haunted by the death of

651
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: all these people. I I struggle to imagine how his

652
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 1: his shop would be anything but the goth shop where

653
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: each clock, every time a customer comes in, he points

654
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: to one and says, there is another clock, each tick

655
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: of which brings us closer to all of our doom,

656
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: where we will join those who came before. That's all

657
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: I'm saying. Yeah, I mean I think that's probably true,

658
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: you know. Or like he sells you a clock and

659
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: he's like, when this clock stops, your hour of doom

660
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: is at hand, and like, yeah, you're like ha ha,

661
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: what a weird thing to say, you know, And then

662
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 1: like you take the clock home and then you die

663
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: mysteriously and like your clock is found stopped at the

664
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: exact moment you died, yeah, exactly. Or he sells them

665
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: to rich industrialists and they're just bombs. Yeah, any of

666
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: those honestly, so many options. But yeah, so his body

667
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: is pulling off this lazy metaphor um coughing up blood. Yeah,

668
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,240
Speaker 1: the body keeps the score and sometimes it is loud

669
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: and obvious about it. But then in December he gets

670
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 1: some life changing news. Simon Petlura has moved to Paris.

671
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: That's the name I remember. Yeah, it's the guy who

672
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: remembering that murdered his whole family basically, right. Yeah, so

673
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: he was the leader of the Ukrainian army during the

674
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 1: Russian Civil war, the one, you know, the army that

675
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: did all them, and he is the single man that

676
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 1: show momb Schwartz Bart holds as most responsible for the

677
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: programs that took place in Ukraine during the Russian Civil War. Now,

678
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 1: this is probably a good time to ask the question,

679
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: were the pogroms pet Lura's fault? Actually? Were the programs

680
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 1: Petlari pet Simon's fault personally? So I'm glad you asked, Margaret.

681
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: Accounts and analysis differ um I waver between abs fucking

682
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: lutely yes and well not literally yes, but morally yes.

683
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 1: I think the absolute best thing you could say is

684
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: that pet Lura possibly maybe did not directly order programs

685
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: that said, he probably did, and he also directly commanded

686
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 1: an army in which he knew there to be a

687
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: ton of anti Semitism, and he did not stop that

688
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: army from carrying out put groms. And some people will

689
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 1: defend him on the basis that, like, hey, it's pretty

690
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 1: hard to stop your soldiers from murdering Jews sometimes, h

691
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: you know, to which I would say, if you tried rying,

692
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,439
Speaker 1: like if you consider murdering Jews to be a very

693
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,760
Speaker 1: bad thing, that you don't want people under your command

694
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: to do and you make it a high priority to

695
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 1: stop it, you know, you stop it, and pit Lara

696
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 1: didn't and Macno did. So m this is it like

697
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: whenever people make the like, oh he was a man

698
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: of his time argument for anybody, like, there's almost always

699
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 1: another man of his time doing, you know, like people like, oh,

700
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: some some shitty white person in the nineteenth century was

701
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: a man of his time and that's why he thought

702
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: it was okay to own people. And it's like John

703
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 1: Brown also a man of the same time. And then

704
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,720
Speaker 1: also like you know, because it's like we always see

705
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: these like super exemplary people, right like John Brown, you know. Um.

706
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: But then like the more one of the main things

707
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: I'm learning by researching and doing this podcast is like

708
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 1: the counter examples are so numerous, you know, Like John

709
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: Brown was not the only white guy in the nineteenth

710
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: century US who was like, oh, I got an idea,

711
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: what if we shouldn't own people? You know, it was

712
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: like like there were entire religions that believed that. And

713
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: the same with like anti Semitism, Like yeah, anti Semitism

714
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: was a really big problem is still a really big problem.

715
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: But it was a really big problem in nineteenth century

716
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 1: and early twentieth century Europe and Russia, and there were

717
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 1: so many people who fought against it, you know, right,

718
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 1: And like I think, like when we bring this stuff

719
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: like this up, we're not saying like and that's why

720
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: white people are actually okay right when talking about like

721
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:36,720
Speaker 1: slavery or and that's what exactly Exactly if John Brown

722
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: and macno could get on board, then like what's your

723
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 1: excuse other guys, you know, um, they just they sort

724
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: of sandy examples of like this was not inevitable, you know, yeah, exactly,

725
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: And I'm going to defer to uh because again I

726
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,919
Speaker 1: could only do so much research on this, but um.

727
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 1: Stephen Leonard Jacobs in the Journal of Jenna Side Studies

728
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: and Prevention makes the case that one Simon Petlura was

729
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 1: the chief of state attaman in chief, with real power

730
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: to act when he's so desired. Two units of the

731
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: Ukrainian Army directly under his supervision, known as the Clans

732
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: of Death, committed numerous atrocities. Three insurgents depended upon pet

733
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 1: Laura for financial support and war material, and regularly committed

734
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 1: programs in his name. Four official organs of the Ukrainian

735
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 1: War Office, the government printing Works and the Information Bureau

736
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: of the National Army incited programs by vicious anti Semitic propaganda.

737
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: Five pet Lera reneged on promises made to Jews as

738
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 1: early as November nineteen seventeen that effective inquiries would be

739
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: made into programs. Six. There is good reason to believe

740
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: that Petlura may have ordered programs in Proskerov and Jitimer

741
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 1: in the early months of nineteen nineteen, and that he

742
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: was in the immediate vicinity of these towns when programs

743
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: were raging. Seven. Petlera's famous orders of August seven, nine

744
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: nineteen forbidding programs were issued eight months too late and

745
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 1: at a time when he held no real power. Okay,

746
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: so funk that guy. I think it's entirely fair to

747
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 1: place some more responsibility for all those deaths and associated

748
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: Horzon pet Laura. Like I think that is that should

749
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: be non controversial. Every defense of him that I've read

750
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 1: has come from a place of like Ukrainian nationalism, which

751
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 1: again I realized is complicated. But I have yet to

752
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,760
Speaker 1: read a defense of him that isn't like. And also

753
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: Shallem Schwartzbard was a Bolshevik agent. Yeah, that doesn't sound

754
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: very likely based on the fact that his unit was

755
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: wiped out by Bolsheviks. Yeah. And I mean it's interesting

756
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 1: because I think, like, if I were trying to do

757
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: a defense of if for some reason I believed that

758
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: pet Laura was innocent, I would still be able to

759
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 1: look at these facts and be like, but it seems

760
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 1: like Shalom had really good reason to think he was

761
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 1: the one responsible, right, And I haven't read any offensive

762
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: pillar that says that, Like they're all they all seemed

763
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 1: to me to contain pretty blatant vale anti Semitism, So like,

764
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm not saying there aren't good defenses

765
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 1: of them out there. I'm just saying I haven't seen them.

766
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 1: Maybe somebody more knowledgeable about this history will disagree with me.

767
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: That's fine. Um, I think for me, he seems responsible

768
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: for this, and if nothing else, it seems very obvious

769
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: why sum would would think so. Right. Also, Like, that's

770
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: what hierarchy means. If you decide that you're going to

771
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 1: be in charge of a thing, you take responsibility for it.

772
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: That's the entire the only way you can defend the

773
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: concept of hierarchy. Morally is by claiming that the responsibility

774
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: lies at the top, you know, especially for something that

775
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: happens at a systemic level like this wasn't one private

776
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: went off and committed grams, you know, this was this

777
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: like system thing that was happening under his command. It's

778
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: his fault whether or not he ordered it. And it

779
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: sounds like, yeah, I don't funk this guy. Yeah, fun

780
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 1: this guy. And this By the way, it was widely

781
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: understood at the time among Jews, especially to the point

782
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: where they were like boogeyman stories about Petlero, Like sorry,

783
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: literally no, it's super weird. Jewish mothers would tell their

784
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: kids that if they weren't good, pet Lero would come

785
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 1: and take them away. Conservatively speaking, eleven guys are funked up.

786
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: I don't know. Ongoing genocidal violence makes it kind of

787
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: weird as a parent, I guess, yeah. But this was

788
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: also something that non Jews were aware of. In a

789
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: novel by Soviet writer Nikolai Ostrovsky, a character trying to

790
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: determine what's happening in the over shifting Civil War see

791
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: soldiers arriving in a town and says, let's wait a

792
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 1: bit and see if they start pillaging the Jews, we

793
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: shall know it's pet Leora as men whoa And In

794
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:04,320
Speaker 1: another novel by a Soviet author Mikhail Bulgakov, the narrator

795
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 1: contemplates the body of a murdered Jewish man and says,

796
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: and the corpse was the only evidence that pet Leurro

797
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 1: was not a myth, but had really existed. Will anybody

798
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 1: redeem the blood that he shed? No, no one. The

799
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 1: snow would just melt, The green Ukrainian grass would grow

800
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: again and weave its carpet over the earth. The gorgeous

801
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 1: sunrises would come again, the air would shimmer with heat

802
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: above the field, and no more traces of blood would remain.

803
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: Blood is cheap on those red fields, and no one

804
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: would redeem it, no one. I wanted to read that

805
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: passage because spoiler alert, that's wrong. Someone is about to

806
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 1: redeem it. But who and but who? Who? Indeed, what

807
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: a good moment I think to end part two before

808
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 1: we know who the redeemer is. Yeah, before we know

809
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: who or how this blood will be redeemed. Yeah, I'm

810
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: gonna go away for a little bit and finish the

811
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 1: story later. How about that? Farewell? Okay, But if we

812
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 1: really want to hear it? Can we can we hear

813
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: it next Monday? Mmmm? I don't know that sounds a

814
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: good question for Sophie. I'm not. I'm just telling you

815
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 1: a story I don't can't confirm Part three Monday? Part three?

816
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 1: Is this our first one with more than two parts?

817
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: Apparently there's a lot of story here, there is, and

818
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 1: I'm so hooked awesome? All right? Is there is there

819
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: any final thoughts here? Anything we want to plug? Start orphanages,

820
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: be brave, Subtlety is for cowards. That's what I got

821
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: that seems good written? Any books lately? Yeah, I was

822
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,280
Speaker 1: gonna say not lately, but I got one published recent.

823
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, people can order. I was gonna say pre order,

824
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: but that would be if you were listening to us

825
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: in the past as a time traveler. We won't be

826
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: here tomorrow is a collection of short fiction available from

827
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: a K Press, and includes short fiction which is made

828
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:22,439
Speaker 1: up stories that are not long stories. And you can

829
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 1: read it. It's really good. It's like so fucking good, Miriam,

830
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,919
Speaker 1: I love it. Anything that you want to I want

831
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,399
Speaker 1: to plug, No, I haven't. I haven't put anything out there,

832
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:38,919
Speaker 1: um except this, So listen to this podcast that I'm doing. Now,

833
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 1: let's see. I think last week I plugged land back

834
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: dot org, which people should check out, and people should

835
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: also check out the i fac fund I F A

836
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: K f U n D on Twitter. Check those things out, ya.

837
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 1: You can also check out Bridget Todd's new podcast, Internet

838
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 1: Hate Machine that is in partnership with cool Zone Media

839
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. It's really good. Hell yeah,

840
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 1: I'm really excited. Bridget Hodd was a guest on this

841
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 1: here podcast. So if you like this podcast, you'll like

842
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: that podcast. Say it as if I'm joking, but you

843
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: actually probably will like it. You will, you will and

844
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: co sign phrase I'm using a lot today apparently co signing.

845
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 1: I've been setting you up to do that, and then

846
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to be sending some checks later. If you

847
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 1: could just look those over. Oh good, good, good call,

848
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 1: Thanks Margaret. I'll get right on that. Okay, good, okay. Bye.

849
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

850
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. But more podcasts and cool Zone Media.

851
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 1: Visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

852
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,839
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

853
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.