1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? You know what I mean? 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? 3 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? You know what I mean? 4 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 3: That vocal tick of mine, it might be a symptom 5 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 3: of a much bigger tendency. It's about the way I 6 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 3: try to relate to people to get them to like me, 7 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 3: because at the end of the day, I'm desperate to 8 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,319 Speaker 3: be liked and you might be too. I'm hopewitdered and 9 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 3: welcome to boiceover a space where we're learning, and I'm 10 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 3: learning all the myths we're taught about love and relationships. 11 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 3: I am one hundred percent of certified people pleaser. That's 12 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 3: been something that has haunted me in my Voice Sober Journey, 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 3: because it means I'm not always honest in my interactions 14 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 3: with men and really with anyone with friends, family, my 15 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 3: bodega guy, anyone that's ever interacted with me. Ever, I 16 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 3: often lose myself because I'm trying to anticipate what. 17 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: People want and what people need. 18 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 3: Thankfully, I was recently recommended Meg Josephson's book Are You 19 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 3: Mad at Me? Which is all about how to heal 20 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 3: from being a people pleaser. Meg is a psychotherapist and 21 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 3: also a recovering people. Pleaser, I say recovering because none 22 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 3: of us are ever truthfully done with this work, which 23 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 3: was so apparent from this amazing conversation I had with Meg. 24 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: Meg, welcome to boy sover. 25 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 26 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,199 Speaker 3: I want to be like so honest with you and say, 27 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 3: like I was reading your book on the way to 28 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 3: Philadelphia from New York. I was on Amtrak, which is 29 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 3: already like on a train, you're already sort of attuned 30 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 3: to being emotional, you know, Like I was. 31 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 2: So maybe it's airplanes. Of course, it's a vessel, furness, 32 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: Dolgia and tears. 33 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. Ahah, And I cracked your book open. I was like, 34 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 3: and I swear to God in the first couple of pages, 35 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 3: like I actually started sobbing like an embarrassing amount, like 36 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 3: crying so hard. Like the fawning conversation was just like 37 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 3: so hitting home for me in a way that like 38 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 3: definitely still impacts my life as like a thirty year 39 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 3: old woman. But for people who haven't really cracked this 40 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 3: book open yet, can you walk everybody through like the 41 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 3: Big Four? Like fawning, like that whole conversation give us 42 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 3: the rundown. 43 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: I'm so glad that it resonated with you, and I 44 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 2: think at whatever age you are, at whatever stage of 45 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 2: life you're at, I think there's something there because it's 46 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: quite a timeless survival instinct. So I'll go through it. 47 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: So we have four responses to a threat, and it's 48 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: something that's important to know is it's whether that threat 49 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: is real or perceived. So the threat could be in 50 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 2: front of us, it could be in a bus user 51 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: or you know, there's something tangible, or it could be perceived. 52 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 2: So our boss is being kind of weird and we're like, 53 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 2: oh gosh, do something wrong at you to get fired? 54 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 2: Or a friend didn't text us back, or someone we're 55 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: dating didn't text us back, so then we think, oh gosh, 56 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 2: they hate me, I'm abandoned. Whatever that's a perceived threat, 57 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter, feels the same to the body. It 58 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: is stress. That is stressful. So we have four sort 59 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 2: of responses that we can go to, which is fight, 60 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: being aggressive physically verbally, flight, physically leaving, ghosting however that 61 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 2: looks freeze, which is kind of if we can't physically leave, 62 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 2: it's the second best thing, or mentally checking out, dissociation, fantasizing, numbing. 63 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 2: The last one, which is what my book is about, 64 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: is the faun respond So when we're detecting a threat, 65 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: we try to appease it, we try to be liked 66 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 2: by the threat. We lean into it instead of away 67 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 2: from it. And this is very different, I think, from 68 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 2: the other threat responses because it's the only threat response 69 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 2: that we're rewarded for. If you were to fight flight 70 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 2: freeze at work, you get a little slap on the wrist, 71 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 2: like there's some punishment to that. But the fun response, 72 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 2: especially I think, as women, oh you're so easy, you're 73 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 2: so agreeable, you're so As children, you're such a good girl, 74 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: and so it's reinforced. But the fun response really says, 75 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: I can't feel safe until I know you like me. 76 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: I'm not good until we're good. We become very hyper 77 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 2: attuned to what other people are thinking and feeling and 78 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: how they're perceiving us. In doing so, we become totally 79 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 2: disconnected from what's happening internally, our needs, our wants, our preferences. 80 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: And the last thing I'll say about that is sometimes 81 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: we need to fawn, you know, whether it's for safety, 82 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 2: whether it's to get a paycheck, like we have to 83 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 2: appease and to survive in society. It only becomes detrimental, 84 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 2: which we can talk about how that looks when we're 85 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 2: doing it all the time, When we're doing it with 86 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: our best friend that we've known since childhood or our 87 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 2: loving partner, that's when it becomes exhausting and leads to 88 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 2: burnout and resentment and just feeling like who am I? 89 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 2: Because I just who am I? When I'm not just 90 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: pleasing everyone else? So that's the overview of the faun 91 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: response totally. 92 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, like things are so hitting home for me. 93 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 3: Like I am from Tennessee, so I like grew up 94 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 3: in the South and you know, on the buckle of 95 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 3: the Bible belt. And I've got this girlfriend down there 96 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 3: who I was talking to her about like how easy 97 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 3: it is as a woman to lie and what that 98 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 3: means because I went on a date a couple of 99 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 3: weeks ago and I called her before I was going 100 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 3: on other day and I was like, I don't even 101 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 3: like this guy. And she was like, I'm going to 102 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 3: give you some advice before this day. She goes, it 103 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 3: might sound crazy, but just do not lie, you know, Yeah, 104 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 3: because isn't it all like so interconnected. Like one thing 105 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 3: that like a realization I've come to is like okay, 106 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 3: being a people pleaser being a faun, or it's like 107 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 3: a little bit being a little bit of a liar 108 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 3: sometimes oh yeah, totally right, which is like something you 109 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 3: don't want to really admit, and it sort of of 110 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 3: course gives it like a completely different connotation because when 111 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 3: we say people pleaser, that's like non detrimental, Like that's 112 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 3: so easy. It's like to really get down to like 113 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 3: the nitty gritty of it, like you are maybe lying 114 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 3: to yourself or lying to somebody else in those moments, 115 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 3: like what does that really say? 116 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: Though? Oh, I have so much to say, where do 117 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:53,679 Speaker 2: I begin? The lying white lying is such a common 118 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 2: tendency with the faun response because we're so scared to 119 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 2: say the truth. We feel we're not allowed to have 120 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 2: opinions of our own. We're scared of conflict. If I 121 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 2: upset this person, it'll lead to conflict. They won't like me. 122 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 2: I need to control how they think of me, So 123 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: I'm going to lie and morph myself to match the 124 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: other person. In order to do that, I have to lie. 125 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 2: And so that is very true of the faun response. 126 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 2: I think my framework with the fun response is it's 127 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 2: to find safety. We're doing this unconsciously as a safety mechanism, 128 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: So I think it's easy to shame ourselves and think, 129 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, oh am I a bad person? Or 130 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 2: what's wrong with me? But shame isn't really helpful in 131 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: changing the emotion. I think switching it to oh, this 132 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 2: is trying to protect me from abandonment or from conflict, 133 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 2: because at some point in my life I probably learned 134 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 2: conflict is unsafe. I have to please men. I have 135 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: to please men in authority, whatever that looks like, whatever 136 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: belief that looks like. For you, it's the honesty, clear 137 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: direct communication. Honest communication, I think is the most important 138 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 2: skill for a foreigner to practice. But it's important to 139 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 2: start with people you feel safe with, because we need 140 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: to show our bodies that being honest is safe. And 141 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 2: if we're starting with someone that's genuinely scary or will 142 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: have a big reaction, that's going to feel pretty shocking 143 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: to the nervous system. So starting small and safe is 144 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 2: really important. 145 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 3: I don't know why that makes me emotional too, like 146 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 3: feeling safe and honesty, you know, because the date I 147 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 3: went on I told him what my friend told me, 148 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 3: and he was like, do you lie? 149 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: And I was thinking. 150 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 3: About like all the little lies that could possibly be lies, 151 00:08:51,080 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 3: like a smile, you know, a laugh, like withholding something. Yeah, 152 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 3: I want to know, Like what do you think allowed 153 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 3: you to start and kind of unravel that tendency to 154 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 3: be a faun or be like a yes person, be 155 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 3: you know, like coming to terms with getting to know yourself. 156 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: What did that look like for you? 157 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 2: It is a slow process, was a slow process, and 158 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: I say is because I think it's just always ongoing. 159 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 2: Like I don't think there's ever this checkbox Okay, I've 160 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 2: done it, I've healed, and now I'm good. I think 161 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 2: it's we have stages of phases and seasons of healing. 162 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 2: I certainly feel very different now than you know, fifteen 163 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: years ago, ten years ago. But when I'm fifty years old, 164 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 2: I'm sure I'll look back on myself now and be like, wow, 165 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 2: I didn't know much about that. 166 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 3: So I think we're just I'm like, literally thank you 167 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 3: for pushing back on me, because like I'm always like, Okay, 168 00:09:58,120 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 3: when am I going to be fixed? 169 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 2: Yeah? That is so that's a great place to start with. Actually, 170 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: where I kind of came into this, which is I 171 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 2: start the book in my first therapist office when I 172 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 2: was in college, and I just had this urgency, please 173 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 2: fix me. Something's wrong with me. I just know it. 174 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 2: I have this feeling something is inherently wrong. Tell me 175 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 2: what to do, tell me how to be fixed. And 176 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 2: there was just such a dysregulation there. What I now 177 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 2: understand is, oh my gosh, that belief in and of 178 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 2: itself was the thing to change my relationship to like 179 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 2: I believed I had to be so perfect that nothing 180 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 2: could be wrong with me, And actually releasing my grip 181 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 2: on that belief that I had to be fixed was 182 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 2: the healing in and of itself. It's just it was 183 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 2: a slow, long process. Honestly, a huge part of my 184 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 2: sort of awareness of this and understandings was through meditation, 185 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 2: through a lot of self inquiry, journaling, a lot of 186 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 2: time alone in silence. However, a big piece of healing 187 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 2: this and any sort of trauma and complex trauma is 188 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 2: it can't happen all by yourself. You know, we're not 189 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: gonna I thought I had to just like heal in 190 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 2: a room alone, and then I would be fixed, and 191 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 2: then I could have a relationship, or then I could 192 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 2: have close female friendships or whatever, and we heal in relationship. Yes, 193 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: that's alone time and self inquiry is so important, but 194 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 2: we also we really deeply heal at the root by 195 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: showing ourselves that we can be in relationships and still 196 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 2: be safe and still be heard. We can tell a 197 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: friend you know, I'm actually not going to go tonight 198 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 2: because I'm really tired. Instead of lying and nothing bad happens, 199 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 2: They're like, Okay, cool, I'll see you next weekend. We 200 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 2: have to show our bodies new experiences in order for 201 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 2: those core wounds to heal. So it was all of that, 202 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 2: Like it was self the silent self inquiry. It was 203 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: exposing myself to safe relationships. It's letting myself feel grief 204 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: and anger, which I think our emotions that a lot 205 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 2: of fawners shoved down. It's allowing that inner experience to 206 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: be there. It's pausing looking inward, what do I think 207 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 2: of this before immediately seeking external approval or validation. It's 208 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 2: a lot of things, but it's slow work, it's subtle work. 209 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: It's such micro daily practices. In many ways, I don't 210 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 2: know if I'm sure you can relate to that. 211 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 3: I mean completely, Like honestly, I've like very recently turned 212 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 3: a new leaf. And again it's like I almost feel 213 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 3: embarrassed that I'm about to turn thirty. And I just 214 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 3: sort of came to terms with the fact that, like 215 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 3: I have to believe in what I'm doing more than 216 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 3: anyone else, and came to terms with the fact that 217 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 3: like that is not selfish. 218 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, I like. 219 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 3: Am attempting to be more well practiced in being honest 220 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 3: and like deciding how I think and feel first, because 221 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 3: that is really not a knee jerk reaction for me. 222 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 3: Even last night, I was having a conversation with a 223 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 3: friend of mine and I was saying something declarative about 224 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 3: our relationship, but I was saying it with a question mark, 225 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 3: and I kept saying, like you know what I mean, 226 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 3: like don't you think And he really got mad at me, 227 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 3: and he was like, you know, I hate it when 228 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 3: you talk to me like you need me to validate 229 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 3: what you're saying. And I was like, okay, yeah, let 230 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 3: me like go back and just say what I think, 231 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 3: like I don't know, you know what I mean? Like 232 00:13:53,679 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 3: why is it a question for me to say my experience. 233 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 2: In that moment thought, what was that cushion providing you? 234 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 2: Is it like, oh, if I say you know what 235 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 2: I mean, it takes the edge off what I'm saying. 236 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 2: It makes it lower stakes if I'm like, you know, 237 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 2: and I'm getting that validation in some ways. 238 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 3: Uh. I think also it calls in in some ways 239 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 3: to say, like, if you disagree with me, please, do. 240 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 2: You know I'm open. I don't have to be right. 241 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: I've never been right. I don't know what it is 242 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: to be correct, you know. 243 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 2: I don't need to have a firm stance change my mind. Yeah. Yeah. 244 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 3: Something I struggle with is of course needing to be liked, 245 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 3: But I think also having a hard time accepting when 246 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 3: maybe you don't like somebody very much, Like how hard 247 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 3: it is to really stand in not liking somebody and 248 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 3: thinking like, oh like if I don't like somebody, I 249 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 3: have something to figure out about them. 250 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: I just don't know them well enough. I just this that. 251 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 3: Do you think that this tendency is tied to being 252 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 3: a fauner at all? 253 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 2: Yes, Oh my gosh. Wanting everyone to like us, feeling 254 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 2: like we need to be friends with everyone. It totally 255 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 2: goes both ways, because what's the alternative that feels a 256 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 2: little scary. For someone that finds safety and being liked, 257 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: not being friends with everyone's a little dangerous. That feels 258 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 2: a little scary. It's a lot safer to have everyone 259 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 2: in your circle. What I have found, definitely on a 260 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 2: personal level level and also just witnessing this clinically, is 261 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 2: the more we know ourselves, the more closer we are 262 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 2: to ourselves, the more it's okay to not be friends 263 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 2: with everyone. What I have found personally is I'm someone 264 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 2: who keeps a pretty tight inner circle. Like if you 265 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 2: are a friend of mine, you are my family. I'm 266 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 2: giving you everything, like I will do anything for you, 267 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: I'll drop everything for you. I can't do that for everyone, 268 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 2: like I couldn't possibly And so what I have found 269 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 2: for myself is like, if I want to be the 270 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: friend that I want to be, I can't be close 271 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 2: to everyone. And it is it becomes inauthentic for me 272 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 2: to pretend like I can, like I'm making false promises 273 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 2: or I'm behaving in a way that I'm not actually feeling. 274 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: And it's okay to not like everyone. And because of that, 275 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 2: it's okay to not be liked by everyone. But I think. 276 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 2: What makes it scary for people pleasers is it think 277 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 2: in our heads that feels like a really big deal. 278 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, if we're not friends, then we're like 279 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 2: fighting or there's huge conflict, when really it can just 280 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 2: be like I'll meet someone for the first time in adulthood, 281 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 2: I haven't met them before, and some friends it's like, 282 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 2: oh wow, I really connect with you and I'd want 283 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 2: to hang out again. Other times it's like, oh so 284 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 2: nice to meet you, and like I don't necessarily feel 285 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 2: a poll to hang out with you again, and you 286 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 2: probably don't feel a pole to hang out with me, 287 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 2: and nothing happened. It's all good. There's just not this 288 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 2: like connection and it doesn't have to be a big deal. 289 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be a thing, doesn't have to 290 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 2: be I need to look inward and think what's wrong 291 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 2: with me that doesn't want to hang out? It can 292 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: just be you know. 293 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 3: I wanted to tell you something specific about myself. It's 294 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 3: almost like I have this knee jerk reaction to go 295 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 3: towards people who specifically. 296 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: Are not interested in me. 297 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: Oh oh baby, let's get into it. 298 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: Yes, in it like in friendship. 299 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 3: Really, like I can think at these times, like where 300 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 3: there will be these girls who I perceive as interesting 301 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 3: or cool, or I put them on some type of 302 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 3: pedestal simply because they are apathetic towards me. 303 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 1: I think. Yes, I was. 304 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 3: Just starting open mics in New York and there were 305 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 3: two co hosts of the open mic and one of 306 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 3: them wouldn't give me the time of day. And I 307 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 3: knew that she liked scrunchies. And I went upstate for 308 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 3: a trip one time, and I knew her birthday. It 309 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 3: was like, coming up, we were not friends. And I 310 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 3: don't even buy birthday presents for my loved ones sick barely, do. 311 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 2: You know what I mean? 312 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 3: Like I won't even buy birthday presents for people who've 313 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 3: been in my life for multiple fucking years. And I 314 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:50,479 Speaker 3: go upstate and I buy this girl a scrunchy. I 315 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 3: come back to New York, I give it to her, 316 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 3: and inevitably I make her my best friend. 317 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: But like, what is that? 318 00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 3: Like? What is that? 319 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: I think it's honestly the most common relationship dynamic for 320 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 2: people that resonate with this, like are you mad at me? 321 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 2: People please thinking? Because one of the core beliefs of 322 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: people pleasing is I need to work really hard to 323 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 2: be loved, like I need to earn it. And so 324 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 2: for someone that is being apathetic or even just neutral, 325 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: is in giving you like, uh huh, yep, you're so amazing, 326 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, you're the best. While let's hang out. 327 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 2: If they're just even being neutral and we find safety 328 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 2: and validation, that is going to spark some level of danger. Okay, 329 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 2: I need to be good enough for this person. I 330 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 2: just need to work hard and prove to this person 331 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 2: why they want to be friends with me and that 332 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 2: I'm worth loving. And so when that feels really uncomfortable 333 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 2: to not be liked by someone, it feels in our 334 00:19:55,560 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 2: control to go get a scrunchy upstate to convince them 335 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 2: why they should be friends with us. And so that's 336 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 2: really what it is. I need to work hard for 337 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 2: love because the alternative is uncomfortable. It's sitting in the 338 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 2: discomfort of the other person maybe not wanting to be 339 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 2: friends with you. Not that that's even the information you 340 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 2: were getting, but that's the story that the mind created 341 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 2: was Uh, oh, does she not like me simply because 342 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 2: she's not like texting me immediately? 343 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 3: You know what I mean? 344 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 2: We find safety in the validation. 345 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 3: It's almost like there's safety in this work, you know, 346 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 3: And that is like something I've come to terms with 347 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 3: in my own friendships. Is like, Okay, I am most 348 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 3: comfortable in a relationship when I am doing some type 349 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 3: of work. But it's like on the flip side, when 350 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 3: you do get maybe validation from someone, when I am 351 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 3: specifically loved by a person or a friend, it is 352 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 3: extremely difficult for me to pize it, think about it, 353 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 3: see it as valuable, see it with ease, you know, 354 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 3: Like it's almost like there is a piece of something 355 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 3: that feels almost unsafe in those friendships that. 356 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: Are there for you. 357 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 2: There's a term called trauma reenactment. And this may not 358 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: this may not apply or not be. 359 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: Writing it down right now. No, I'm writing it down 360 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: right now, and like literally writing. 361 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 2: So many of us were unconsciously drawn to relationships that 362 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 2: remind us of a past one, often parental, but can 363 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 2: also be a really toxic romantic relationship or even our 364 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 2: friendship that you were in. And most of the time, 365 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: if we've learned to fund as our default, we have 366 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 2: learned in some relationship, I'm not good enough and I 367 00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 2: need to work really hard. I need to be per 368 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 2: to be loved. I need to overextend and do the 369 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 2: most in order to be loved, whether it's caretaking or 370 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 2: being a peacekeeper or a perfectionist, however that looks. We're 371 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: drawn to those types of relationships simply because they're familiar, 372 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 2: because we think to ourselves, Oh, I've been here before, 373 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 2: I know how to do this right. It sucks, even 374 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 2: if it's not the relationship we want. Consciously. We know this. Unconsciously, 375 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 2: our brain finds safety in it because they were like, oh, 376 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 2: I know how to be I can just try really hard, 377 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: and I've done that before. But to be in a 378 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 2: friendship or a romantic relationship where you're kind of chilling 379 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 2: and you're enough and you know you're more easeful, that 380 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 2: might feel super unfamiliar and unfamiliar feels very scary to 381 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 2: the body. That was a huge unlocked for me. With 382 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 2: friendships especially, I'm like, oh, my gosh, why am I 383 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 2: so drawn to people where I'm they don't really like 384 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 2: me and I'm doing the. 385 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 3: Most Earlier and I think I saw this on Pinterest 386 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 3: a couple of days ago or something, so it's in 387 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:09,239 Speaker 3: the zeitgeist or whatever for my personal brain but you 388 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 3: can kind of only know someone as well as you 389 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 3: know yourself, and someone can only know you as well 390 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 3: as you know yourself. Even Yeah, how does someone who 391 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 3: is so attuned maybe for safety reasons, maybe for survival reasons. 392 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 3: How can someone who's so attuned to anticipating everyone else's 393 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 3: needs before they anticipate their own, how do they get 394 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 3: to know themselves? 395 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 2: Yes, I think two things come to mind, the first 396 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 2: being to even be a good friend, to even have 397 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 2: a sustainable long term friendship, or we're showing up for 398 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 2: people in a way that feels really good, we have 399 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 2: to know ourselves because to show up for someone is closeness, 400 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 2: and we, like you said, we can't be close to 401 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 2: someone if we're not close to ourselves. I think it's 402 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 2: as simple as just starting with slowing down and pausing. 403 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 2: Notice the ways in which you immediately seek external approval 404 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 2: or validation. Like if you're maybe silly example, but if 405 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 2: you're like trying something on in addressing room and your 406 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: immediate instinct is to text a friend, what do you do? 407 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 2: Do you shy buy this, don't text anyone? What do 408 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 2: you think of it? How do you feel in it? 409 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 2: It's simple, small ways like that where we're looking inward first, 410 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 2: what's so important? And I think we've over corrected in 411 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 2: mainstream just how we talk about boundaries, and I talk 412 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 2: about this in my book of boundaries are not a 413 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 2: way to control people. Sometimes boundaries are to protect us 414 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 2: in harmful situations, and a lot of times, for like 415 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 2: really good friendships and partnerships, it's actually a way to 416 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,959 Speaker 2: be closer to someone because we're saying to the other person, 417 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 2: I trust you and love you so much. I'm letting 418 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 2: you in on what I need and you can do 419 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 2: the same so that we can be friends forever, long term, 420 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 2: as opposed to if we're lying, if we're saying yes 421 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 2: to everything and then we feel resentful, the friendship might 422 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 2: fade pretty quick because we're fed up, we're resentful, we're 423 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 2: we might you know, distance ourselves without having a hard 424 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 2: conversation just because we want to be quote nice. But 425 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 2: being compassionate means being honest, letting people in, showing people 426 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 2: that we can be honest and so can they. It 427 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 2: opens the conversation for just getting to really know each other. 428 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 2: That's to me, what boundaries are. It's what it's really 429 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 2: what we will do with our time and our energy 430 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: and resources. I hear this all the time. The cost 431 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:02,719 Speaker 2: of community is inconvenience one hundred percent agree, And like 432 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 2: I said earlier, we can't do that for absolutely everyone. 433 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,959 Speaker 2: And so being honest with ourselves, like why am I 434 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 2: doing this? Am I offering to do this because I 435 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 2: love this person? Or am I offering to do it 436 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 2: because they're kind of playing hard to get and I 437 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 2: want to prove to them that I'm a good friend? 438 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 2: Like what's the reason that I'm doing this? I think 439 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 2: asking ourselves that question is such a good starting point 440 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,239 Speaker 2: of am I being just like a good friend? Or 441 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 2: am I fawning? 442 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 4: Right now? 443 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 2: That's that's how I distinguish it. 444 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 3: In your personal life, And I hope it's okay to 445 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 3: get into it a little, but like, of course, how 446 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 3: has fonning impacted your own life? Oh? 447 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the fun response has been really protective for 448 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 2: me since day zero my life specifically with my dad, 449 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 2: where he struggled a lot with addiction, He had a 450 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 2: lot of rage, and just being good and perfect was 451 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 2: really helpful for me. I mean talk about lying, like 452 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 2: I would just silence my emotion, silence what I thought 453 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 2: to please him because that was safety providing for me, 454 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 2: Like if he was in a good mood, things were good. 455 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 2: If he was in a bad mood, it wasn't so good, 456 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 2: and so it was just easier to prioritize his mood. 457 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 2: So that's definitely where I learned it from the beginning. 458 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 2: And it's just interesting how when you go from an 459 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 2: environment where it's genuinely useful to then being an adult 460 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 2: and maybe you've left that main environment where it's really 461 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 2: useful and now you're dating, or now you're working, or 462 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 2: you're making friends, and it becomes lying. Because what that 463 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 2: means is there's an inauthenticity. That's really what it means. 464 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 2: When we're lying, it just means we're disconnected from what's 465 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 2: going on inside were we feel like, I'm not allowed 466 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 2: to disagree with this person, so I'm gonna lie. What 467 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 2: it really means to not lie is to return inward 468 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 2: and think, what do I think, what do I feel? 469 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 2: What do I need? And it is safe for me 470 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 2: to say that honestly. What I learned very quickly is 471 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 2: I just felt like, if I'm not being honest, I 472 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 2: don't feel like people actually know me, And that I 473 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 2: think is a huge detriment of the faun. Response is 474 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 2: if we're always being perfect, if we're always being agreeable 475 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 2: and smiling and laughing, who are we And no one 476 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 2: can really get that close to us if we are 477 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 2: masking ourselves all the time. And so in the book, 478 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 2: I talk about sort of the difference between being nice 479 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 2: versus compassionate, and one of those conversations is having open communication. 480 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 2: Having hard conversations. It's such an act of intimacy because 481 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 2: we're saying to the other person, I trust you enough 482 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 2: to let you in, and while you may have feelings, 483 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 2: I may have feelings, it's safe for both of us 484 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 2: to have that exit. You can exist, I can exist, 485 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 2: and I don't need to disappear into you. And that's 486 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 2: just such a form of intimacy. 487 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: I mean, so true. 488 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 3: I want to know, like, what was your favorite thing 489 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 3: to write about in this book. 490 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 2: This is going to sound so weird, but my chapter 491 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 2: on grief and anger was my favorite. I knew I 492 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 2: wanted a chapter on grief early on in the book 493 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 2: because I kind of wanted the structure of the book 494 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 2: to mirror my own process or I'm like, I realize 495 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 2: what's happening that I'm stuck in a fawn response, and 496 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 2: in order to move forward, I first need to like grieve, 497 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 2: grieve parental relationships that weren't what I wanted them to be. 498 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 2: Need to grieve like a fantasy that I held of 499 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 2: my dad and of my mom in order to move forward. 500 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 2: And I think grief and anger go hand in hand, 501 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 2: or their cousins or siblings, however, whatever closeness do you 502 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,959 Speaker 2: want to give them. They're related some way, they share blood. 503 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 2: And I think both are emotions that people please are 504 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 2: shoved down because we think they're bad or you know, 505 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 2: good girls don't feel anger. Good girls are just grateful, 506 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 2: so grateful and don't feel grief, and there being enough 507 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 2: space in our beings to hold both. I can grieve 508 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 2: this and feel great for it, and I can be 509 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 2: angry and be kind at the same time. Both can exist. 510 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 2: But it's just so important to allow room for those 511 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 2: experiences to come through. It was definitely the hardest chapter 512 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 2: emotionally for me to write. It's the most personal one 513 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 2: for me, but I don't know, it's just really healing 514 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 2: to write about it. 515 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 3: Do you care to give a little bit of a 516 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 3: rundown for people who are listening who maybe haven't read 517 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 3: the book yet, that moment of grief for you, what. 518 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: You were grieving exactly, and what brought you there to 519 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: that moment. 520 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 2: Yes, I talk about grief in a few ways. I 521 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 2: think we often think of grief as when someone passes, 522 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 2: and grief is also grieving someone who's very much alive 523 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 2: and well, and it's grieving what you wish the relationship 524 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 2: would be. It's grieving an apology you'll never get. It's 525 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 2: wanting someone to change and knowing they never will. That 526 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 2: I think is a subcategory of grief that isn't talked 527 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 2: about enough and is so painful. So in the book, 528 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 2: I talk about two types of grief, the first being 529 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 2: my mom started showing symptoms of Alzheimer's when I was 530 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 2: nineteen and she was fifty nine, so she's now at 531 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 2: the end of her life. And so just like the 532 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 2: grief of watching her disease progress, and in my twenties, 533 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 2: while grieving what we never had, she always felt quite 534 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 2: far away from me because I think that was her 535 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 2: way of coping with my dad was just kind of 536 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 2: more dissociative. So I always just like I wish I 537 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 2: had a mom, I wish I felt closer to my mom, 538 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 2: and then with her disease, I was like, shit, I 539 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 2: won't have this, And so that was a big form 540 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 2: of grief, and that's more related to mortality. But then 541 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 2: I also talked about the grief with my dad of 542 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 2: I kind of put him on a pedestal when I 543 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 2: was a kid and wanting to be really close to him, 544 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 2: and at times he was my best friend and other 545 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 2: times he terrified me, and he was both people to 546 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 2: me at once, and just grieving that he wouldn't change 547 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 2: and he wouldn't see what I was seeing, and letting 548 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 2: go of this fantasy that I held that was honestly, 549 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 2: like even more intense than grieving the mortality of my mom. 550 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 2: Like grief is just so layered. The big twist that 551 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,479 Speaker 2: ends up happening is I turn in my manuscript from 552 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 2: my book. Three days later, my dad passes away very suddenly. Wow, yeah, 553 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 2: very suddenly, and unexpectedly. It was health related. It was 554 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: in his sleep. But it was just so hard shocking 555 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 2: to have written about my mom's mortality and then for 556 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 2: her to outlive him when she's been terminally ill basically 557 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 2: for ten years. It was just so confusing and so confronting, 558 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: and yet he had passed so much, so much grief 559 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 2: with that while editing the book and marketing the book, 560 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh my gosh. And I had also 561 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 2: felt like I had grieved him already in many ways. 562 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 2: To read the dad I didn't have or that I wanted. 563 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 2: And there were also beautiful things about him as well, 564 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 2: and I talk about that in the book too. I 565 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 2: also thought he was going to read the book. I 566 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 2: wrote it thinking he would, so I was nervous about 567 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,240 Speaker 2: him reading it. And it's just it's the meta healing 568 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 2: of the book. Are you mad? I was worried he'd 569 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 2: be mad at me if I talk, if I acknowledge things. 570 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 4: And life just happens, you know, so what an intense 571 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 4: experience like I can't imagine what that would be like 572 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 4: being in your shoes after putting that together, life does 573 00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 4: just you just don't know ever, what will happen totally? 574 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 3: How do people start to sort of shed this survival mechanism? 575 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: How do people let go of fonnding? 576 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,439 Speaker 2: I would say the foundation is awareness. We can't really 577 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 2: heal anything until it's in our conscious mind. And so 578 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 2: remember that the faun response is an unconscious survival mechanism. 579 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 2: We're doing it often without realizing it, so to bring 580 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 2: it into the conscious mind, it's annoyingly simple, and that 581 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 2: I think the intellectual mind is like, what's the thing 582 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 2: to fix this? Or like, how do I fix this? 583 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 2: Slowing down being aware of when we're doing it, looking 584 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 2: in why am I doing this? Do I need to 585 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 2: be doing this right now? And what that means is 586 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 2: it's slowing down, it's pausing, it's setting aside time for 587 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 2: reflection after the fact. For example, if we're feeling some 588 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 2: resentment in a relationship, that is a really good sign 589 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 2: that there's probably an of ours that isn't getting met. 590 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 2: We're having a fake argument in our head with a friend, 591 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 2: or like with a partner again and again, it's probably 592 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 2: a sign that there's something internally that has to be addressed. 593 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 2: So using our emotions and our bodily sensations as information 594 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 2: of like what's happening here, I think is also a 595 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:21,879 Speaker 2: really beautiful entry point. 596 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 3: You've been talking a lot about self inquiry, and I 597 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 3: like this, but I want to know, like where does 598 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 3: somebody start if they want to like really get to 599 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 3: know themselves. 600 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 2: Well, I think self inquiry is different from over intellectualizing, 601 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 2: over and analyzing, because that's in the head. And I 602 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 2: think a lot of self inquiries happening neck down of 603 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 2: taking a deeper breath and slowing down our process even like, 604 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 2: notice how urgency creeps into your life when you're washing 605 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 2: the dishes or eating lunch or brushing your teeth. We're 606 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 2: just like right, so many of us are just rushing 607 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 2: through things. I catch myself all the freaking time doing this. 608 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 2: That even is self inquiry, like whoa, that's let me 609 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 2: relax my shoulders. What I find helpful? Is am I 610 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 2: going to it? Or is it coming to me? Especially 611 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 2: if you resonate with this, are you mad at me? 612 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 2: Thinking I know I do of like, okay, let me 613 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 2: replay this a million times in my head to see 614 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 2: what happened, or to pick myself apart. That is perfectionism 615 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 2: creeping into our healing. I need to be perfect. I 616 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 2: need to figure this out. I think self inquiry there's 617 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,240 Speaker 2: a subtle shift. There's an openness, there's a leaning back, 618 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 2: there's a grounded We're letting things come up as opposed 619 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 2: to digging in and trying to find something. And when 620 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 2: we do do that because it is inevitable. Just notice 621 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 2: that too, just another thing to observe. I think it's 622 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 2: just a felt there's a subtle felt difference between the two. 623 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 2: You're doing enough, There's no like, oh should I be 624 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,720 Speaker 2: doing this? Am I not doing this right? Just notice 625 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 2: that voice. It's just the critic, self critical voice that 626 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 2: you know is wanting you to be perfect. But it's 627 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 2: just another voice to notice. 628 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: What is one thing you've had to unlearn about love? 629 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 3: Hmmm? 630 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 2: I think unlearning that love is unsteady m m. Or 631 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,720 Speaker 2: I was gonna say chaotic, but I think that doesn't 632 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,720 Speaker 2: capture it. I think it's unsteady. I think I learned 633 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 2: that I need to work hard for it and it's 634 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 2: a continuous process, but just so eye opening that love 635 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,839 Speaker 2: is calm and love is safe. And when I met 636 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 2: my husband, even though we were young, I even then 637 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,720 Speaker 2: at that age, I I felt, Wow, this is safe 638 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 2: and calm, and that feels really scary. I think to 639 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 2: a younger part that learns that love is stressful. But 640 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 2: I think that's been my greatest understanding. It applies to 641 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 2: friendships too, it applies to everything. I think that the 642 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,239 Speaker 2: things that are right for us don't always swing us 643 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 2: in these cortisol highs and lows. It's just it can 644 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 2: feel even boring, and that's yeah. It means that we 645 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 2: can't feel bored if we're not safe. 646 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,840 Speaker 3: I encourage everyone who resonated just a little bit with 647 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 3: this conversation to go read Meg's book. 648 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 1: Are you mad at Me? 649 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 3: I'm so honored she talked with me about all of this, 650 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 3: and obviously I've got quite a bit to work on. 651 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 3: Thank you everyone so much for listening, and I'll talk 652 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:58,879 Speaker 3: to y'all next week. Boysover is a production of iHeart Podcasts. 653 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 3: I'm your host, Hope Ordered. Our executive producers are Christina 654 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 3: Everett and Julie Pinero. Our supervising producer is Emily Meronoff. 655 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 3: Our assistant producer is Logan Palau. Engineering by Bahid Fraser 656 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 3: and mixing and mastering by Abu Zafar. If you liked 657 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 3: this episode, please tell a friend and don't forget to rate, review, 658 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,839 Speaker 3: and subscribe to Boy Sober on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 659 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 3: and wherever you get your favorite shows.