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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday and Tracy V.

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Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. This week we talked about

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Speaker 1: Hortense and Marie Mancini Love. So this this episode went

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Speaker 1: through a process of what is the episode about? Because

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Speaker 1: what I originally started out with was just Hortense specifically, uh,

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Speaker 1: And then I was like, maybe it needs to be

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Speaker 1: an episode on all of the Mazarinettes. And then I

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Speaker 1: was like, that is way too much. But then as

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Speaker 1: I was taking all of these notes about Hortense, Marie

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Speaker 1: just kept coming up over and over and over, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, I think I just need to have

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Speaker 1: the episode be about both of them because their lives

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Speaker 1: were intertwined so much, and they did intersect with each

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Speaker 1: other and so many ways, um, and at different times

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Speaker 1: of their life, one of them often seems to have

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Speaker 1: like the slightly better end of the stick, like but

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Speaker 1: it shifts, it shifts back and forth. Yeah. Um. I

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Speaker 1: also originally had in some notes about like there effects

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Speaker 1: on people's attitudes toward divorce, because like this was not

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Speaker 1: something that women generally did, and they're like, while there

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Speaker 1: was a legal option to have this, like separation in

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Speaker 1: France specifically like it, it wasn't something that was really

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Speaker 1: widely available, but divorce continued to be illegal for like

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Speaker 1: another almost century after they lived in France. In England,

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Speaker 1: I think you had to have an Act of Parliament

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Speaker 1: to get divorced. Like divorce just wasn't something that wasn't

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Speaker 1: an available legal, no remedy to a lot of people

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Speaker 1: in Europe, and continued not to be even though even

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Speaker 1: after they had broken all this new ground and published

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Speaker 1: their memoirs and become famous almost like today's social media

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Speaker 1: Darling's um We like their effect on on people's abilities

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Speaker 1: to get out of marriages that were really abusive or

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Speaker 1: terrible like that continued to be really limited. It's interesting

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Speaker 1: because you know, we talked in this episode about the

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Speaker 1: affair of the poisons and how many people were accused

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Speaker 1: of poisoning and how much poisoning was going on. We did,

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Speaker 1: like our whole first season of Criminalia was about women poisoners,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, did nobody just slip these gals some

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Speaker 1: arsenic They could have gotten out of those? Maybe her

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Speaker 1: their sisters could have, because two of their sisters they

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Speaker 1: got banished. Yeah, yeah, so I kept thinking about that throughout.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I know, I know who you could have contacted,

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Speaker 1: Like they're going to call me, give them a historical

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Speaker 1: hook up. It's another one of our very bad uses

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Speaker 1: for time machines, right, I can I can tell you

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Speaker 1: who can get you out of this marriage. That's terrible.

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Speaker 1: Don't do that. Um. Yeah. I love their story so

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Speaker 1: much because it is so mind blowing. The thing that

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Speaker 1: always strikes me is one when you look at their story,

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Speaker 1: how much this this dovetails on what you were saying

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Speaker 1: about divorced not being an option. How much women were

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Speaker 1: kind of viewed as an asset and not people. Right.

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Speaker 1: Even their uncle, who in many ways seemed to treat

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Speaker 1: them very well, still was using them as tools of

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Speaker 1: his own um legacy and desires. And you know, they

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Speaker 1: were like they were part of a financial transaction, which

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Speaker 1: is just like and then the other thing that I

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Speaker 1: think about a lot, you know, Hortense being the younger

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Speaker 1: of the two. You know, we're talking about her having

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Speaker 1: kids and leaving her kids and running around and I'm

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Speaker 1: I guarantee to many people's ears, it's like, what what

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Speaker 1: kind of mother would do that? Dude. By the time

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Speaker 1: they're late in the game, like sixeventy one, when they

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Speaker 1: are running away together, she was still only she was

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Speaker 1: so young. And I know that, you know, maturity ages

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Speaker 1: were slightly different than but that's still very very young

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Speaker 1: to have lived the life she had to, for both

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Speaker 1: of them, to have never really had a life of

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Speaker 1: their own. And then be like, and you're responsible for

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Speaker 1: all of this. Oh, you're not a human, but you

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Speaker 1: are absolutely responsible for other humans. It's just a lot

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Speaker 1: I have. I can't help but have sympathy for them,

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Speaker 1: even in their moments of their worst behavior. I So

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Speaker 1: I don't think Hortense ever saw her children after leaving.

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Speaker 1: I could be wrong. It's like if she did, that's

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Speaker 1: not one of the things that stuck in my brain

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Speaker 1: while doing research. Um, but it it also does seem

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Speaker 1: like when she left, she thought if she could find

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Speaker 1: somebody who was sympathetic to her and could help her

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Speaker 1: make a case, that maybe she would be able to

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Speaker 1: better advocate for them, like not in the house with

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Speaker 1: her husband. Um, And like I like that. I can

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Speaker 1: totally see it, Like she's in this marriage with this

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Speaker 1: person who just is terrifying to me and whose behavior

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Speaker 1: is really erratic and controlling. Um, I can totally see

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Speaker 1: her being like I, I cannot I cannot fix this here.

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Speaker 1: I don't have the means to take them with me,

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Speaker 1: So maybe if I go somewhere else, somebody can help me.

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Speaker 1: Like a lot, I can sort of see that pross

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Speaker 1: thought press us. But then like later I'm a little

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Speaker 1: fuzzier on like now I'm a party girl and now

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Speaker 1: what happened? Yeah, but you know, both of them, it

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Speaker 1: was clear that they felt like and we're expected to

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Speaker 1: have a male heir for their husband. Um, and that uh,

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Speaker 1: that hortense once she once she had a boy after

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Speaker 1: having had daughters, was like done finished with this? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I also, um, armand what a case of projection? Right,

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Speaker 1: you can't turn butter. People will think it's sexy. People

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Speaker 1: will think it's sexy, or you think it's sexy. Right,

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Speaker 1: this is your issue. I'm trying to actually make food,

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Speaker 1: like I didn't. Um, he had a lot of issues.

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Speaker 1: It's the most gentle way I can put it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it sort of makes you wonder about whether Cardinal Mazarin

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Speaker 1: was that good of a judge of character, right. Well,

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Speaker 1: and it also becomes that that question that you know,

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Speaker 1: they all layer like an onion of like maybe he

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Speaker 1: was absolutely wonderful and seemed completely together around men, but

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Speaker 1: around women he became a complete nutbag, just like obsessive

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Speaker 1: and bizarre and fixated on their every move being somehow

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Speaker 1: gonna lure men to dangerous thoughts. Yeah, Armand I wish

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Speaker 1: there were therapists century France for you. I know that's

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Speaker 1: not the cure for everything, but holy Moses, yoursel. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's really had problems. So yeah, I find all of

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Speaker 1: their stories really fascinating, and trying to write about all

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Speaker 1: seven of those nieces would have been way too many,

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Speaker 1: so you have done any of them justice. But I

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Speaker 1: think Marian Hortense together, yes hopefully worked out. I will

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Speaker 1: forever think about um no uns in a convent dipping

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Speaker 1: their fingers in holy water before the Sign of the

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Speaker 1: Cross and getting ink all over their habit to think

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Speaker 1: about that all the time, because I think that's funny.

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Speaker 1: I know it's sacrilegious, I just think it's funny. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it really seemed almost like I don't know that the

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Speaker 1: accounts of um of Hortense and uh Marie Sudny like

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Speaker 1: it reminds me not even of my brother's summer camp

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Speaker 1: experiences and the boy Scouts, but like a comedy fix

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Speaker 1: a fictional comedy of like boys and boy Scouts, uh

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Speaker 1: doing pranks, doing pranks on people like it. Just um,

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Speaker 1: I know there's a gendered element to all of that,

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Speaker 1: but like that's what it kind of reminded me of

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Speaker 1: when it was all the various types of pranks that

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Speaker 1: they did on the nuns. See what it were minded

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Speaker 1: me of is I think a lot of people have

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Speaker 1: those one or two friends where you're just like there

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Speaker 1: is a chemical reaction that happens when the two of

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Speaker 1: you were together and you just behave badly. I have

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Speaker 1: a handful of them. It's like I have friends when

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Speaker 1: Brian and I are like traveling and meeting people in

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Speaker 1: other sit meeting up with our friends and other cities

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Speaker 1: or whatever. I'm like if so and so is coming

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Speaker 1: to dinner and Brian just gets that look like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna drink so that I can keep on

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Speaker 1: top of everything, and also like this could go off

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Speaker 1: the rails in anybody. Yeah, there are a few of

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Speaker 1: those in my life. We have great fun together. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: no jail time so far. So Yeah, their whole story

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Speaker 1: is a whole wild pride. Yes. This week we talked

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Speaker 1: about the Coconut Grove fire uh, and I thought I

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Speaker 1: would elaborate on why I find the fires so difficult,

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Speaker 1: because I know that is a thing that I have

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Speaker 1: said on the show before. Um. I know there are

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Speaker 1: a whole podcasts whose whole thing is disasters, and people

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Speaker 1: who listen to disaster podcasts and like they just that's

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Speaker 1: the thing that personally interested in They like it, love it.

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Speaker 1: I find a lot of the disasters difficult. I find

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Speaker 1: the fires specifically difficult because so so so often, so

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Speaker 1: often we're talking about people who were just trying to

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Speaker 1: go to work or go to a play or have

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Speaker 1: dinner or whatever, and the person who was in charge

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Speaker 1: of this business and had a responsibility for the safety

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Speaker 1: of their patrons instead decided that they wanted to make

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Speaker 1: some extra money, or that they wanted to cut corners

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Speaker 1: and have a cheaper building process for their building or whatever, uh,

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Speaker 1: and didn't take the necessary steps to make the building

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Speaker 1: safe and maybe even locked the doors. Or you know,

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Speaker 1: when we're talking about things like the Triangle shirt waste factory,

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Speaker 1: people who were just trying to go to work, and

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Speaker 1: had the doors locked behind them so they couldn't get out.

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Speaker 1: There's just, over and over and over and over, some

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Speaker 1: either greedy or incompetent, or maybe both person making decisions

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Speaker 1: that made a building they were responsible for unsafe, and

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Speaker 1: then a whole lot of people who were just trying

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Speaker 1: to go about their lives dying because of it. Over

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Speaker 1: and over. We've talked about so many fires that have

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Speaker 1: so many common elements uh with them. Plus they're just

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Speaker 1: so deadly and so terrifying. They happened so quickly. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to throw any venues under the bus. Um,

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Speaker 1: but prior to the pandemic, I had season tickets to

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Speaker 1: a particular areas of performances at a particular venue um

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Speaker 1: and our tickets were in the mezzanine, And every single

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Speaker 1: time the show would be over and we would be

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Speaker 1: joining this incredibly slow shuffle of people down the steps

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Speaker 1: to the main floor and out this one exit. I

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Speaker 1: would be like, are there other exits from this building?

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Speaker 1: Because what if there is a fire, Like it is

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Speaker 1: taking us so long just to get out of the

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Speaker 1: building in an orderly way after the show is over.

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Speaker 1: I cannot imagine if everyone were panicked in a fire situation. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I think we've all been in places like

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Speaker 1: that where you're like, this is a little scary. Do

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Speaker 1: you know what? I thought about a lot? Uh, not

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Speaker 1: to not to laugh about it, but it was just it.

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Speaker 1: It made me chuckle in that I was like, I

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Speaker 1: just talked about this some behind the scenes. Do you

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Speaker 1: remember when we were talking about what a lazy science

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Speaker 1: fair person I was and how I did, Like my

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Speaker 1: best one was on how different fabrics burn. I know

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Speaker 1: a lot about what happens to satin when it burns,

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Speaker 1: and I want to also be very clear in case

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Speaker 1: anybody doesn't know because to to Layman, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: dogging anybody for not knowing this. If you're not a

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Speaker 1: textiles person, you might not know. Satin and silk get

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Speaker 1: used interchangeably. Those are not the same thing at all.

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Speaker 1: Silk refers to the fiber, which is a natural fiber

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Speaker 1: made of course by silkworms. Satin is a weave that

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Speaker 1: gives you that satiny, smooth texture. But you can have

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Speaker 1: a satin made out of all kinds of things. And

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Speaker 1: it really jumped out at me when reading this, because

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Speaker 1: I am a textile dorc that synthetic textile started to

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Speaker 1: be made in the nineteen thirties and they burned very differently,

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Speaker 1: and they burned very differently then, but like um, like

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Speaker 1: I think nylon was and then just early in the

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Speaker 1: year before this, DuPont had started making polyester and another

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Speaker 1: company I think UM but like satin from like the forties.

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Speaker 1: Because I have played with fire on some of that

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Speaker 1: turns into lava. So if it was on the ceiling

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Speaker 1: and it was burning, in addition to its spreading in

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Speaker 1: that little air pocket, it would also have potentially been

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Speaker 1: dropping onto people and things below and catching fire. So

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Speaker 1: that's what I was thinking of. It's like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: red hot fabric lava on everybody, like there's and it's sticky.

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Speaker 1: So it's like when you if you've ever made candy

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Speaker 1: and you get it really really hot, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it's very dangerous at that point because you can burn

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Speaker 1: really easily because it sticks to you and you can't

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Speaker 1: just get it off. It's like that, yeah, yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: what makes that super terrifying. Yeah, one of the things

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Speaker 1: that's really contradictory. And there are several books about about

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Speaker 1: this fire and they all sort of take a different,

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Speaker 1: slightly different approach and focus to it. Um, Like there's

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Speaker 1: some contradictions in terms of what materials were used in

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Speaker 1: the decor and how much Wellanski knew about what they

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Speaker 1: were made of. Apparently, when that fire inspector um came

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Speaker 1: and declared that the building was safe, one of the

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Speaker 1: things that he had done was like held a match

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Speaker 1: to a piece of like the papery artificial palm tree leaf,

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Speaker 1: and it didn't burn, but in court, a much bigger

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Speaker 1: piece of it burned almost like flash paper. So there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of stuff of like there there were

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Speaker 1: not as many standards about how do we test for

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Speaker 1: whether something is fire resistant, because if you know, if

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Speaker 1: somebody held a match up to a thing, it might

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Speaker 1: be fine, but if you were in a space that

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Speaker 1: was as hot as a room on fire, it might

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Speaker 1: suddenly become something that could flash up. And so a

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Speaker 1: lot of those details I did not get into as

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Speaker 1: deeply just because like there was so much, so much

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Speaker 1: that's still not known. That I watched a lecture about this.

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Speaker 1: One of the points that they made was if this

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Speaker 1: were a fire that happened today with today's technologies for

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Speaker 1: like uh an analyzing things that have been burned. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it would probably be a lot clearer exactly how the

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Speaker 1: fire started and exactly how exactly why it burned as

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Speaker 1: fast as as it did. Um with the caveat that,

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Speaker 1: there are four sure fire investigation techniques that have been

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Speaker 1: used within the last few decades that like, as people

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Speaker 1: study them further, don't actually hold up as being a

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Speaker 1: conclusive way to bread point the starting point of a

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Speaker 1: fire and how it's bread. But yeah, fires are are

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Speaker 1: terrifying and uh and just they may it makes me

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Speaker 1: angry how often it's the same story of somebody didn't

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Speaker 1: want to pay for something, or they didn't want people

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Speaker 1: to be able to leave without paying or whatever, um

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Speaker 1: or just didn't pray or tie safety right. In some cases,

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Speaker 1: they're not thinking even nefariously. They're just being sloppy and thoughtless,

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Speaker 1: which is something you can't really afford to do when

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Speaker 1: you are a space that is open to the public. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so definitely did a lot to revolutionize burn care, and

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Speaker 1: of course burn care has been further revised since the

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Speaker 1: nineteen forties. We were not saying that like they solved

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Speaker 1: burn care. That's not the case. But they did make

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Speaker 1: a lot of advancements um, through treating those people, which

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Speaker 1: still something like half the people that made it to

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Speaker 1: the hospital still died very soon after. It was just

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Speaker 1: getting to the hospital did not necessarily mean somebody was

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Speaker 1: gonna able to survive. So we are recording this more

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Speaker 1: than a month before the actual anniversary. Um and so

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Speaker 1: I am curious to see what kinds of memorials and

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Speaker 1: things happened around Boston, because I know there were some

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Speaker 1: for the seventy five anniversary. I don't know as much

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Speaker 1: from before that because I am a more recent transplant

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Speaker 1: to the area. Dare I opened the Pandora's box as

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Speaker 1: someone who lives in Boston. Of your thoughts on the

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Speaker 1: condom memorial scandal, Oh well, I only know about this

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Speaker 1: scandal what I read about it because for somehow I

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Speaker 1: absolutely missed it a hundred percent when it was happening.

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Speaker 1: Um Like, I did not see anything about it in

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Speaker 1: the news at all as it happened in I think

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Speaker 1: that was I was not lit like. I have never

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Speaker 1: lived like in the city of Boston proper. I've always

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Speaker 1: lived outside of it since moving up here. Um and

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Speaker 1: so like, I didn't see any news coverage, any tweets

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Speaker 1: about it, any whatever. Um. But when I was researchinging

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Speaker 1: the podcast, like I was finding you know, video clips

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Speaker 1: of the news report about the thing and newspaper articles

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Speaker 1: about it. Not living in the neighborhood, it's it's tough

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Speaker 1: to get a gauge on what people really thought about it.

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Speaker 1: But this quote from the condo owners really comes across

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Speaker 1: to me as like thoughtless and inordinately privileged. Yeah, Like

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Speaker 1: the one part where I'm like, Okay, I get that,

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Speaker 1: is like we don't want like, look you lose. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: If they had offered an alternative, like what if we

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Speaker 1: designate this part of this property and as long as

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Speaker 1: people can keep you know, their reth offerings or whatever

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Speaker 1: in that space so that like our kids aren't suddenly

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Speaker 1: dealing with strangers they don't know and having that you know,

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Speaker 1: confusion about who they trusted who they don't, I would

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Speaker 1: feel a little less like, really, are you that thoughtless?

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Speaker 1: But they did an offer anything like that other than

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Speaker 1: not here. Yeah, And it was sort of moved to

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Speaker 1: a corner. It did not move far down the street.

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Speaker 1: It moved to a corner that's kind of on the

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Speaker 1: back side of the hotel that's there. And like then

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Speaker 1: there were people who were trying to kind of well

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Speaker 1: actually exactly where the revolving door really would have been.

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Speaker 1: It became sort of became a whole thing, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's that quote that we read I found so again,

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Speaker 1: Happy Friday. I hope whatever is coming up on your

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Speaker 1: weekend is is RESTful and pleasant. Um. We'll be back

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Speaker 1: with a Saturday Classic on Saturday. We'll be back Monday

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Speaker 1: with a brand new episode. If you haven't, you can

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Speaker 1: subscribe to our show on iHeart radio app or wherever

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Speaker 1: else you like to get your podcast. Stuff you missed

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Speaker 1: in History Class is a production of Heart Radio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart

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Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

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Speaker 1: favorite shows. H