1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 2 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. 5 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 2: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 2: the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in 7 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 2: the world, it is so great to have you here, 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 2: back for another episode today. I think I am possibly 9 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 2: the most excited for this guest of all of our 10 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 2: guests this season, because, as you know, we love an 11 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: evidence based background, we love an informed guest, we love 12 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 2: an actual scientific opinion in this space, and I think 13 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 2: this person does all of those things. So we have 14 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 2: doctor David Rosmarin, who is a associate professor at Harvard 15 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 2: Medical School and the founder of the Center for Anxiety, 16 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 2: which provides is it services to a thousand patients a year. 17 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: I think so he is incredible. He works a lot 18 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 2: in obviously mental health, and a lot around anxiety, and 19 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 2: he's also been featured in a number of amazing journals 20 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 2: that we use on this podcast all the time. He's 21 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: here today to talk about people's anxiety, their experience of anxiety, 22 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 2: particularly in their twenties. So welcome. 23 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me on your show. It's 24 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 3: a great honor and pleasure to be here. 25 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really really excited. Actually, I'm super pumped because 26 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 2: I feel like maybe we should start firstly with letting 27 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: you introduce yourself before I jump straight into my line 28 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 2: of questioning, Maybe talk about your journey to where you 29 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 2: are now, why you took an interest in this particular 30 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: area of research, this particular field as well. 31 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 3: Sure well, I myself have definitely struggled with a deal 32 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 3: of a good deal of anxiety over the years. And 33 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 3: learning to deal with that, especially as somebody who helps 34 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 3: others and who does research in this topic and who 35 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 3: now you know, my clinics, like you mentioned, we're servicing 36 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 3: over a thousand people every year, has been so positive. 37 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 3: It's been such a blessing for me to be able 38 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 3: to have these challenging experiences. I'm not going to say 39 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 3: that anxiety is fun. It is not. Nobody likes it. 40 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 3: It's so uncomfortable. It's the kind of thing that we 41 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 3: want to get rid of. But the times in my 42 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 3: life when I've had that have made me so able 43 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 3: to connect with my patients and in some ways more resilient. 44 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 3: And I actually think today that anxiety can be a 45 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 3: great catalyst for growth and for thriving if we use 46 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 3: the right tools and approaches in order to get there. 47 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I think often people talk about 48 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 2: these things without having a personal experience with them, which 49 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: can be so frustrating. But I do think that that 50 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 2: shared vulnerability, that shared experience is a bit of a 51 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: unify a bit of a superpower. 52 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 3: You know, I appreciate that. Now, let me ask you 53 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 3: a question. Have you ever met anybody who didn't have 54 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 3: anxiety before? 55 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,239 Speaker 2: It's so funny that you asked me this, because I 56 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 2: think I've met a couple and one of them is 57 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 2: actually my partner, and he I'm gonna I'm gonna share 58 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 2: all here. He's got a pretty stressful job. He's a solicitor, 59 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: he's a lawyer, and I've never seen that man anxious. 60 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 2: He'll be up till two am, never, And I think 61 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 2: it's thinking in yang, right, But in general, I know 62 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: you are you were expecting a different answer. 63 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 3: It's very few of them, far between the individuals who 64 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 3: have never had anxiety before. And I think one of 65 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 3: the biggest issues and one of the reasons anxiety gets 66 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 3: out of control is that often we judge ourselves and 67 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 3: we get very upset and when we start to feel anxious, 68 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 3: as opposed to realizing that this is a very human emotion. 69 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 3: This is the kind of thing that's gonna happen to 70 00:03:55,040 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 3: the vast majority of people except for your partner and everyone, 71 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 3: almost everyone. At some point. It's going to butt up 72 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 3: against these feelings, these sensations, and they're uncomfortable. We want 73 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 3: to get rid of it, but you know, learning to 74 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 3: grapple with it and to parlay that into positive ways 75 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 3: in our life is really the name of the game, 76 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 3: as opposed to trying to squelch it and combat it. 77 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: I think that really personally relates to me as well. 78 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 2: The times I've been most anxious is when I've been 79 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: asking myself to be least anxious, when I've really been 80 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 2: suppressing that feeling because it you know, it wasn't comfortable, 81 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 2: it wasn't it wasn't necessary. At the time, I felt 82 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 2: like it was interrupting other things in my life. But 83 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 2: I do kind of want to just quickly start at 84 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: the basics, because I feel like when it comes to anxiety, 85 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: there is somewhat a bit of misinformation around there sometimes people, 86 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 2: you know, I think people love to self diagnose, people 87 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 2: love to throw terms around, like I'm just so you know, 88 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 2: I've just got such bad anxiety, I've got such bad OCD, 89 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 2: I've got such bad social anxiety, social phobia, whatever. Maybe 90 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 2: so can we just quickly strip back to the basics 91 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 2: what exactly is not just anxiety, but some of the 92 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 2: distinctions within the broader anxiety space, you know, perhaps between 93 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: a panic disorder, social anxiety, generalized anxiety. Not everyone obviously 94 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 2: experiences it the same way. 95 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 3: Absolutely, Yeah, if you strip it down when you want 96 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 3: to define anxiety, you really have to start with fear. Now. 97 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 3: Fear is a healthy emotion that everybody, almost everyone is 98 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 3: programmed with, which involves adrenaline. Adrenaline gets pumped into your 99 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 3: bloodstream the minute you perceive a threat, and the fear response, 100 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 3: otherwise known as the fight or flight response, is a 101 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 3: healthy adaptation which helps you to survive. So you'll either 102 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 3: flee or fight or freeze if you're in a certain situation, 103 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 3: and you're more likely to survive those situations. Babies neonates 104 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 3: who do not have a fight or flight response are 105 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 3: usually they usually don't survive. They usually will not survive 106 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 3: be on thirty days. It's a neuro it's a neurot 107 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 3: it's a neurological problem. In fact, if people don't have that, now, 108 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 3: what's anxiety. Anxiety is the exact same thing. It shares 109 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 3: the same brain circuitry, it shares the same neurobiology as fear. However, 110 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 3: there's one key difference. It's a false alarm. So fear 111 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 3: would be a real alarm, like oh no, I really 112 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 3: have to get out of the way of this bus 113 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 3: which is careening towards me down a city street, and 114 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 3: anxiety would be I'm in this social situation and I 115 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 3: feel afraid. My fear response is going off, but it's unnecessary. 116 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 3: Now I want to clarify in other words, In other words, 117 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 3: like I said, it's a false alarm, So I want 118 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 3: to clarify. You are going to have false alarms. You're 119 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 3: going to have them sometimes. If you know, sometimes in 120 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 3: your kitchen or wherever it is you're going to have 121 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 3: you know, your your smoke alarm is going to go off, 122 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 3: and that's good. That actually indicates that the batteries are working, 123 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 3: the circuitry is working, and you have the protective factor 124 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 3: in there, the protective mechanism in place that if there 125 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 3: were a fire, it would wake you up and it 126 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 3: would save your life. That's much better than what's deadly 127 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 3: with the smoke alarms is batteries, when the batteries die 128 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 3: or when you don't have it. Yeah, so anxiety just 129 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 3: shows you that it's actually working, but it's a misfire 130 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 3: of the fear system. 131 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: Can I ask you a question, because there's it was 132 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 2: just kind of going back a little bit, but it's 133 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: something that people ask me about all the time. To 134 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: its obviously fight flight and freeze response, parasymnthetic and the 135 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 2: automatic nervous system, No, parasympathetic and the sympathetic. What about 136 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: the foreign response? Have you spoken? Do you know much 137 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: about this new edition? 138 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 3: Well, the newest edition has really been freeze. You know 139 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 3: that that has historically been ignored. In the last several 140 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 3: years in the scientific literature, that's been brought up, especially 141 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 3: in the context of sexual assault. There was some recently 142 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 3: some New York Times pieces about that, and a couple 143 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 3: of high level scientific pieces about you know, about people 144 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 3: freezing during during sexual assault as being a part of 145 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 3: the feared response. I don't know about form. What can 146 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 3: you tell me about it? 147 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's interesting that you don't know about it, 148 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 2: because now I'm thinking that perhaps I'm not getting it 149 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 2: from the best sources. But the faun response is basically 150 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: mainly to do with I think social anxiety, where you 151 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 2: feel obviously that false alarm that someone perhaps is going 152 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 2: to reject you, someone doesn't like you, someone is going 153 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: to do you harm in a social capacity, and instead 154 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 2: of running away, instead of obviously fighting the person, both 155 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: of which would be socially inappropriate, freezing might actually hurt 156 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: your case more. You faughn, so you overly compliment them. 157 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: You kind of make yourself seem quite subservient and like 158 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 2: they are in control. So it's interesting that perhaps this 159 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 2: isn't coming up as much in your space because maybe 160 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 2: it's I don't know. The freeze response I understand. The 161 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 2: faun one is one that I think I don't understand 162 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 2: as well, because it doesn't seem as natural to me 163 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: as part of a fear response. It feels more like 164 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 2: an intentional behavior rather than an automatic behavior. 165 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 3: I'll tell you what I think is really going on there. 166 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 3: In some ways, the person that you know fight the 167 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 3: fight responses when you're doing something in order to ward 168 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 3: off anxiety. The flight responses when you're running away and 169 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 3: you're escaping. So it actually in some ways is under 170 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 3: the category of the fight response. I understand it's not 171 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 3: fighting because you're not fighting against the person, but really 172 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 3: it's in the category of are you doing something positive 173 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 3: in order to tamp down your anxiety and to deal 174 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 3: with it, or are you withdrawing from a situation, which 175 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 3: would either be in the form of freezing and it's 176 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:43,119 Speaker 3: extreme force form or in the form of fleeing or withdrawal. 177 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 3: So form is a socially appropriate way of trying to 178 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:53,079 Speaker 3: engage people, And yeah, that could definitely be mediated. Social 179 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 3: anxiety is one context, one way in which anxiety manifests, 180 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,079 Speaker 3: perhaps particularly for young people, even. 181 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: Matter I honestly, I think that is the case. I 182 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: think generalized anxiety disorder and social anxiety social anxiety something 183 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 2: I get questions about all the time, but something else 184 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: I want to speak about, because like, one thing you 185 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 2: talk about is how and you spoke about this in 186 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: your Washington Post Washington Journal article, Well Street Jennal article. Yeah, 187 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 2: and it was super fascinating. It's how perhaps our experience 188 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 2: of anxiety has changed in recent decades, but also the 189 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 2: approach to diagnosing anxiety has also changed. You know, Previously, obviously, 190 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: in decades long gone, we really only had like kind 191 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 2: of the broader term of like neuroses, and people would experience, 192 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 2: you know, a great deal of stigma and discrimination. There 193 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 2: wasn't really a system for dealing with this pattern of symptoms, 194 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 2: this pattern of behaviors, this pattern of tendencies. Nowadays we 195 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 2: have that cybeway so much more accepting, we're so much 196 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: more aware of what this is. But what has that changed? 197 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 2: Has it had any consequences now that perhaps the bar 198 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 2: has been lowered, the threshold is lower. 199 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I believe there have been some unintended consequences of 200 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 3: our greater literacy of mental health. And I think on 201 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 3: the one hand, it's been a great thing, like as 202 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 3: you say, you know, we have more technologies today, we 203 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 3: have more solutions. On the other hand, there is an 204 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 3: insidious message that your generation has that had I grown 205 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 3: up with this, I would have had crippling anxiety. And 206 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 3: that message is that you need to feel good all 207 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 3: the time, you need to look good all the time, 208 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 3: you need to be high achieving, you need to be 209 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 3: hidden to the nines. You know everything's got to be perfect, 210 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 3: and that is just not going to happen. It's if 211 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 3: you're expecting perfect equanimity and perfect happiness, you know you're 212 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 3: going to be disappointed. And then the minute you start 213 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 3: to feel anxious, then you're judging yourself, You're nervous that 214 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 3: something's wrong, you're comparing yourself to everybody else, and then 215 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 3: you're just going down the tubes. It actually literally releases 216 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 3: more adrenaline when you perceive anxiety as a threat, which 217 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 3: from a biophysical standpoint, increases your anxiety. I think this 218 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 3: is the core of the anxiety epidemic today, is that 219 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 3: we have bought in and sold We have sold this message, 220 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 3: especially to younger generations, that you need to feel good 221 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 3: all the time. It's a lie. It's just not going 222 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 3: to happen. And the more we can accept that distress 223 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 3: is part of life, the better we're, the more resilient 224 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 3: we can be, and the better position we are to 225 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,359 Speaker 3: be able to handle normal adversity. 226 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 2: So I completely agree with that. I think that the 227 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 2: pressure to be exceptional is significant, is something that every 228 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 2: single person in this generation would tell you about. So 229 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: do you think that is specifically cultural or social or 230 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 2: that other factors The one that I always think of, 231 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 2: and perhaps it does play into a certain environmental environmental 232 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 2: causes the rise of social media and certain technologies which 233 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 2: have made it so much easier to compay yourself to others, 234 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 2: so much easier to say everything that's absolutely terrible in 235 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 2: the world. Do you think that has a role as well? 236 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 3: It does? It definitely does. I think it worsens trends 237 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 3: within countries, but if you look between countries it's different. 238 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 3: Like levels of anxiety in Europe are substantially better than 239 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 3: they are in the United States, and in Middle Eastern 240 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 3: countries it's even better. And even in India, where it's 241 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 3: very common for people to use social media, people's anxiety 242 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 3: is not quite as bad. And the reason why is 243 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 3: because in many cultures. I don't know about Australia, unfortunately, 244 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 3: I don't know very much about it, but I know 245 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 3: in the United States social media is used to replace 246 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 3: in person social engagement. That's usually not in Mediterranean countries, 247 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 3: it is not usually like that. In the Far East, uh, 248 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 3: it's not as much. There's still social engagements which occur, 249 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 3: and those are complicated. You have to get in a subway. 250 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 3: You have to, you know, deal with somebody, I don't know, 251 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 3: they have bad breath. You have to, you know, see 252 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 3: somebody at that party who you don't like. You have to, 253 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 3: you know. It's more, you can't just shut off the conversation. 254 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 3: And if you don't look good, you're still there, Like 255 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 3: if someone spills copy on you, like you're you're at 256 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 3: the party, like you're you're we have to deal with 257 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 3: those you're there. You can't just shut it off or 258 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 3: like you know, go to your cupboard and then change 259 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 3: and then come back on with the pixelated image. So 260 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 3: all of those are great for building resilience and something 261 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 3: that at least in the United States, we are not 262 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 3: doing very well. Hm. 263 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 2: That's really interesting because I think that it's massive in Australia. 264 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: I literally just finished a project for Manibank called We 265 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 2: Are Learnedly, and it talks about how social media has 266 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 2: reduced that sense of connection. But the other thing that 267 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 2: I find this is like a personal that I have 268 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 2: all the time, is our society is kind of moving 269 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 2: towards a place where we don't have community anymore. You know, 270 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 2: previously we used to a lot of you know groups 271 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 2: were quite religious. You know, used to go to Sunday 272 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: church or you know, used to be able to pop 273 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: over to your friend's house, and now that's kind of 274 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: replaced with being able to have those interactions online. And 275 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 2: so I really kind of agree with what you're saying 276 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: in the sense that you no longer get that exposure 277 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 2: to perhaps the everyday stresses that you can engage with 278 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 2: in media. 279 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 3: Is that kind of relationships are messy, you know, they're 280 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 3: all messy. And the people who you love the most 281 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 3: and you feel connecting with the most, and the people 282 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 3: who you're going to feel the most elated with and 283 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 3: the most excited with are also probably the people who 284 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 3: are going to drive you the most insane. That's usually 285 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 3: where it goes. 286 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think people need that reminder coming up to Christmas. Honestly, 287 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 2: that's incredibly contextually relevant now. 288 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 3: Of course, like if we're talking about trauma, and if 289 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 3: we're talking about you know, a dangerous situations and you know, 290 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 3: people who are sociopaths, like I have no tolerance for that, 291 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 3: and you know, I'm not saying that we should subject 292 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 3: ourselves to actual danger, but you know, the people who 293 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 3: I know who are most connected with others also put 294 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 3: up with a lot of garbage, and I see I 295 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 3: see that as a strength. I see that as a 296 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 3: strength and one that we don't really talk about very much. 297 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 2: I also think it's this interesting thing where it's like 298 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 2: you can still interact with those people with boundaries, like, 299 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 2: you know, not completely withdraw. I think this is a 300 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: completely different topic we're getting onto. I'm just trying to 301 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 2: pick your brain for all of it, but. 302 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 3: I want to, well, it's related to anxiety because when 303 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 3: we are dealing with people, you know, those people who 304 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 3: need those boundaries, there's that sense of inside of us, 305 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 3: like should I put up a boundary? Do I just 306 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 3: walk away? Do I tell them off? Like? And that 307 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 3: creates a lot of anxiety. Do we actually face that 308 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 3: anxiety and deal with the issue or do we just 309 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 3: walk away? And I think are narcos culture when we 310 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 3: are trying to cultivate our emotional experience on a minute 311 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 3: by minute basis. The minute I started to feel anxious, 312 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm not dealing with this. I don't think 313 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 3: that's healthy. I don't think that's the way we're meant 314 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 3: to be learning to have boundaries put and to enforce 315 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 3: those boundaries continuously is a great, great skull. It's not easy, 316 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 3: but it's an important skull that I don't think we 317 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 3: practice enough. 318 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 2: I think it's also this trend of conflict aversion as well, 319 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 2: like wanting to avoid all kinds of conflict. I've seen 320 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 2: that in my own life, perhaps that people pleasing tendency 321 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,360 Speaker 2: as well, which I think our generation has a lot 322 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 2: more of not to offend. 323 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 3: I think there is a lot more people pleasing in 324 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 3: for people, for folks in their twenties than there was 325 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 3: when I was when I was twenty. 326 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, But I want to ask you this question 327 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 2: because this is the thing I think kind of the 328 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 2: main part of the sandwich here that I'm super fascinated by, 329 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 2: which is, how do you think that our approach to 330 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 2: treating anxiety has changed? And I'm going to say, my 331 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: fascination with this, you know, with this philosophy that you 332 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 2: have with perhaps your opinion on this is quite selfish 333 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 2: of me, comes from my personal place. It's, you know, 334 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 2: the over medicalization of anxiety. Now, I was diagnosed with 335 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: anxiety when I was quite young. It's been a constant 336 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 2: in my life. As it sounds like it has been 337 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 2: in yours, And when I was on nineteen, I went 338 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 2: on Lexipro, which is kind of a dual anxiety depressure medication. 339 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 2: Was also like very quickly prescribed Valiant, which I no 340 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 2: longer use. And so I guess by way of my actions, 341 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 2: I've kind of benefited from this more medical, biomedical approach. 342 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 2: But you say that we can do things differently, and 343 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 2: obviously this is not me asking you for personal medical 344 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 2: advice that would be entirely inappropriate, but more in the 345 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 2: sense of, like, what does that mean? What is this 346 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 2: this different approach? How can we do this differently without 347 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: perhaps taking a pill that sometimes people think is going 348 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 2: to be this miracle, this one thing that is going 349 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 2: to change that A lot great questions. 350 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 3: First and foremost, I'm not against pharmacology in any way, 351 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 3: and I do see I would say more than fifty 352 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 3: percent of my patients use pharmacology, use medicine psychiatric medications, 353 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 3: and I'm a supporter of that as long as it's 354 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 3: taken with certain intent. Now, I don't know what you 355 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 3: were told when you were nineteen and put on lexapro, 356 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 3: but the fact that you were put on lexapro first, 357 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 3: in valium second indicates that probably it was something along 358 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 3: the lines of I'm going to take this in order 359 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 3: to reduce my anxiety so I can manage day to 360 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 3: day and be able to overcome it. If the lexapro, 361 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 3: if your intent was I would need to get rid 362 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 3: of these feelings that I cannot have them. Ever again, firstly, 363 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 3: that doesn't work. There's no medication that will take away 364 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 3: your anxiety because if it could, it would take away 365 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 3: your fear response, which would actually be maladaptive. That would 366 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,479 Speaker 3: not be healthy for you at a neural level, at 367 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 3: an emotional level, behaviorally, or in any other way. We 368 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,479 Speaker 3: need people's fear systems to be in place so that 369 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 3: you can be protected if you need it. So we're 370 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 3: not going to strip that down. You know, there would 371 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,479 Speaker 3: be catastrophic consequences if that were the case. But what 372 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 3: can be done is to tamp it down a little 373 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 3: bit so that a person has enough anxiety that they 374 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 3: can tolerate. Sometimes people's anxiety gets so high that they 375 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 3: just cannot tolerate it. They can't use it to thrive 376 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 3: in a positive way in their lives, So we need 377 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 3: to pharmacologically reduce it to a regular level. Now, benzodiazepines, Valuum, 378 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 3: ad van, valuum, klonipin and the like are completely different. 379 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,239 Speaker 3: They work on a different brain system called GABBA. And 380 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,719 Speaker 3: what those do is they sort of immediately reduce your anxiety. 381 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 3: Xanax as your classic one, right, they immediately reduce your anxiety. Now, 382 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 3: often people are given those as a first line treatment, 383 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 3: and I do not think that's in general, in general, 384 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 3: I don't think that's a wise practice. I don't think 385 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 3: that's a wise medical practice because what ends up happening 386 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 3: is people assume the minute I feel anxious, they're taking 387 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 3: this fast acting medication. Lexapro is slower acting over time, 388 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 3: so it'll reduce your anxiety over a period of four 389 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 3: to six weeks to a reasonable level, and then you 390 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 3: can reduce it over time if you want. You can 391 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 3: reduce your dose and then tolerate higher levels. With benzos, 392 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 3: it's a different game, and that approach is really in 393 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 3: some ways reinforcing the idea I shouldn't feel anxious. I 394 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 3: don't want to ever feel anxious. I have to get 395 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 3: rid of this anxiety or something catastrophic will happen. And 396 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 3: all of those messages just sensitize us further often, and 397 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 3: I've seen this in hundreds of cases where people were 398 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 3: told by a pharmacologist, you need to take this xanax 399 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 3: or whatever it is in order to cope with their anxiety. 400 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 3: It will take it away, and it doesn't, and then 401 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 3: they feel even worse about themselves. The next time their 402 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 3: anxiety goes higher and they end up on three, four 403 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 3: or five medications. Then you know, it can get very complicated, 404 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 3: very quickly. 405 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 2: I find that very personally relevant. That made a lot 406 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 2: of sense to me. I think it's also something I realized. 407 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 2: I used to have a really terrible fear of flying, terrible claustrophobia, 408 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: and that's why I used valium. And you know what, 409 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 2: the fear response was not there, but the level of 410 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 2: avoidance that I had towards the activity increased like crazy, 411 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 2: because I became more fearful of that fear response, right 412 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 2: because I was teaching myself that it was so dangerous, 413 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 2: that it was so scary, that I was so unable 414 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: to cope, that I needed to be taking this medication 415 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 2: at higher doses. 416 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 3: What did you think would happened? What did you think 417 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 3: would happen if you just let your anxiety go? 418 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 2: Oh? I had some crazy irrational fears. That's the other 419 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 2: part about you know, I think anxiety it's quite irrational, right, 420 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 2: And it was you know, if I was on this 421 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 2: plane and I wasn't taking valium, I was going to 422 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 2: have a panic and I was going to try and 423 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 2: rip open the doors of the plane because I was 424 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 2: so scared. I was like, is this a possibility? Could 425 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 2: I completely could I seriously hurt other passengers on board? 426 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 2: Or I think worrying about embarrassing myself? And then I 427 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 2: think I examined the fear further and I was like, 428 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 2: and the thing I always say for people to do 429 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 2: is is this so what so you have a panic 430 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 2: attack on the plane, So what so I'm going to 431 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 2: embarrass myself? So what? I think? The thing that I 432 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 2: realized in that And you say this, and you said 433 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 2: it before, and I love love this phrase. You have 434 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 2: to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. How do you think 435 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 2: we get there? Because being uncomfortable is not something that 436 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 2: we particularly enjoy doing. 437 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 3: Nobody likes it, but it's going to happen sometimes and 438 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 3: we do have to get used to it. Now, the 439 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 3: question is how much discomfort can we when we listen 440 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 3: I feel anxious throughout. I wouldn't say on a weekly basis, 441 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 3: certainly a couple times a month something comes up that 442 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 3: makes me feel viscerally uncomfortable, and when my stress level 443 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 3: is high, I'm more likely to have that. I'll tell 444 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 3: you what I do. I'll be very hoarded by graphical here. 445 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 3: I lean right into it. I'm feeling terrible right now? 446 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 3: What am I upset about? And I bring it on. 447 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 3: I think right towards it. And if I'm feeling if 448 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 3: something makes me feel more uncomfortable, I will gravitate even 449 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 3: more towards it. I'll talk about it in great detail 450 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 3: with people. Get her off my chests, embrace it, let 451 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 3: the fear wash over me. It is. It's sort of 452 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 3: like ripping off a band aid, right, just like we're 453 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 3: gonna do this, do it and it hurts, It really hurts. 454 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 3: It's bad. But I'll tell you what ends up happening 455 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 3: when you lean into it. Is this what we've talked 456 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 3: about before, the parasympathetic system. You have wiring and you 457 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 3: have chemicals inside of you which will calm you down. Okay, 458 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 3: we see over a thousand patients a year in my practice. 459 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 3: How many of them have had a panic attack that 460 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 3: lasted more than ninety minutes. Ever, I'm sure it's zero. Zero. 461 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 3: The number is zero. And my colleagues who have similarly 462 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 3: sized clinic treating tens of thousands of patients on an 463 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 3: annual basis for decades, I have spoken with them and 464 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 3: a number of patients who have had a panic attack 465 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 3: more than ninety minutes. Ever, I'm gonna go from the 466 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 3: zero having the number of people who have crashed their 467 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 3: car during a panic attack. It doesn't happen. The number 468 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 3: of people who've gotten up in the middle of a 469 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 3: plane and started running around and stabbing people with the 470 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 3: plastic fork. 471 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 2: Listen, I'm gonna say maybe at least one. I'm seeing 472 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: some weird power videos, but it probably is theero. 473 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 3: Well, there was that one time. No, I'm kidding. The 474 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 3: answer is zero. People don't do that. When you're anxious, 475 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 3: you're actually more in control of yourself. You're dealing with 476 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 3: your own emotions. You're not and often you can't even tell. 477 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 3: Like people say, everyone can see I'm anxious. No, they're 478 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 3: looking at themselves. They're not looking at you. 479 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 2: What is it called the spotlight effect? Everything that we 480 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 2: do seems to be like super stuper obvious to other people, 481 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 2: but we're all now kind of own internal lives and 482 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 2: internal minds. That's really interesting. I think that that's a 483 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 2: really important reminder to people who experience kind of the 484 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 2: shame cycle of like this is super embarrassing. The one 485 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 2: thing I do, and I is really similar to you, 486 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 2: is like I tell myself I'm excited by the feeling, 487 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,360 Speaker 2: because I think anxiety and excitement feel very, very similar. 488 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 2: So I'm like, this is the most exciting feeling ever. 489 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 3: It's actually the same chemical. It's adrenaline, you know, adeneraline 490 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 3: happy different? Those are those Those are the chemicals that 491 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 3: are that are secreted when we're excited and when we're anxious. 492 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can just tell yourself that it's something different. 493 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 2: So anxiety is obviously incredibly limiting at times, can feel 494 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 2: someone like a life sentence. But what I really really 495 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 2: love about your work is that it kind of offers 496 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 2: this more positive alternative to this perspective, you know, seeing 497 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 2: anxiety not so much as a superswer, you know, per se, 498 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 2: but kind of you say this as your own personal 499 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 2: confidts to kind of learn your limits. So can you 500 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 2: expand on that a little bit, what is anxiety useful for? 501 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 2: How can we listen to anxiety as a way to 502 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: kind of teach us more, not just about our environment, 503 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 2: but also about ourselves. 504 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good question. I think for people in 505 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 3: their twenties especially. I want to go back to the 506 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 3: conversation about loneliness and the people I know, The patients 507 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 3: I know who have had anxiety have the ability, I 508 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 3: would call it a superpower to understand and to probe 509 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 3: and to respond to the emotions of other people much 510 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 3: better than people who don't. Who aren't I would say 511 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 3: blessed with anxiety, especially social anxiety. You know, people who 512 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 3: are accessionsly shy, excessively socially anxious can pick up on 513 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 3: incredible cues like facial changes in the facial expression, or 514 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 3: changes in voice intonation or in rate of speech. In 515 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 3: people's body language. The specific words that they that they 516 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 3: pick up on are much more nuanced, and that can 517 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 3: enhance our connection with others. Now, they might have a 518 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 3: smaller group of friends, they might not be life of 519 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 3: the party and have five hundred or one hundred people 520 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 3: or whatever it is, but those intimate connections. If we 521 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,479 Speaker 3: use our anxiety to understand the emotional experience of others, 522 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 3: it can make us into a much better friend. And 523 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 3: more importantly, let me ask you a question. Are you 524 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 3: closer with people who you divulge intimate emotional details of 525 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 3: your life to. 526 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I think, yeah, I think. But also on 527 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 2: a selective level, I think when you do that excessively 528 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 2: sometimes it actually puts the relationship a risk. 529 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 3: That's a fair point. That's a fair point. But when 530 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 3: we have one or two friends who we can really 531 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 3: cry on their shoulder and open up to them and say, hey, 532 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 3: I'm having a hard time, like I really need your love, 533 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 3: your support, your hug right now. Like when we can 534 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 3: be vulnerable in those relationships, that's it's so critical. It's 535 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 3: such a critical human need to be able to express 536 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 3: our vulnerabilities and anxiety. I think is one of the 537 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 3: things that gets us there. When we're feeling anxious and 538 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 3: we reach out and get the love and support we need, 539 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 3: those can be the best relationships that we'll ever have. 540 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 2: I agree, one hundred percent. Agree. It's interesting because we 541 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 2: talk about friends, but perhaps you know, divulge even more 542 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 2: about myself on this episode. You've made me open up. 543 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 2: You know, the relationship that I actually see that is 544 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 2: benefited from that. The most is the relationship with my dad, 545 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 2: because my dad has I think, yeah, has really has 546 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 2: long struggled with anxiety, and I think I didn't realize 547 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 2: that as a kid, and now I've realized, I've realized 548 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: it more, you know, when I was a teenager, now 549 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 2: into my twenties where I'm like, ah, this is a 550 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 2: shared experience, and I can tell when my dad is 551 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 2: more ready to open up to me in a way 552 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 2: that I think a lot of Australian men really aren't 553 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 2: because of the cultural milieu here, Like you know, it's 554 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 2: the sun burnt country. You're meant to just go out 555 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 2: and make a fair go for yourself and work really 556 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 2: hard for your family, and it's you know, got that 557 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 2: whole like convict mentality. That's how we were colonized. Obviously 558 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 2: a history lesson for everyone. But I think the thing, 559 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 2: like the times that I've understood him the best is 560 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 2: when we've been able to bond over that experience and 561 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 2: also he's you know, he's been able to open up 562 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 2: to me and been like this is you know, I'm 563 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 2: having this this anxious feeling and let's connect on that 564 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 2: and get through it together. So I do think it's 565 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 2: definitely helped my relationship with my dad, and there's probably 566 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 2: not a relationship he had with his father at all, 567 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 2: And the same I could probably say about my mom 568 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 2: and now my sisters as well. So I actually think 569 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 2: that's really fascinating that point. 570 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 3: So you're telling me that the fact that you experienced anxiety, 571 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 3: you were able to recognize it in your father get 572 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 3: him to open up about it, despite cultural facts to 573 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 3: the contrary, and that has enhanced your bond and your relationship. 574 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 2: I'm giving myself too much credit. I think that he 575 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 2: was doing his own work. Yeah, I think that there 576 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 2: was like a moment. I also think it was necessity. 577 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 2: It was there was it was by necessity whereby you know, 578 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 2: he's a parent. I'm not a parent. But I'm sure 579 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: that when he was seeing me experience that pattern of symptoms, 580 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 2: he was like recognized himself in that, and I don't 581 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 2: know it, probably really wanted to comfort me and then 582 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 2: really share like I've been through the same thing. Maybe 583 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 2: he didn't have a word for it. He came with 584 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 2: me in my sessions. You know, it's like that whole process. 585 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 3: But that's exactly what Thriving with anxiety is about you 586 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 3: and him have used anxiety to connect with each other, 587 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 3: and that's what it's here for. I mean, it's not 588 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 3: have you. You know, if you only medicated it away 589 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 3: without also engaging therapy and also engaging with your father 590 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 3: about it, it would have been a tremendous opportunity missed. And 591 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 3: I think many times that's what happens, and people are 592 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 3: just left more alone, more anxious, more upset about the 593 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 3: fact that they're anxious. And I'm seeing a lot of 594 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 3: pain and a lot of isolation and a lot of 595 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 3: just loneliness in our world because of we don't realize 596 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 3: that anxiety is so normal and something that we can 597 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 3: use for positive if we use the right techniques. 598 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 2: So that kind of leads me to my last question. 599 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 2: You have a book coming out tomorrow. By the time 600 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 2: people are listening to this, you will be able to 601 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 2: get your hands on it. I have my hands on 602 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 2: this book, but if not, I would be buying an 603 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 2: extra copy. I think it's going to be a Christmas 604 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 2: present for a few of my close family and friends, 605 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 2: maybe my dad, that you talk about these nine tools 606 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 2: to make anxiety work for you, not to give everyone 607 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 2: a sneak peek, but can you maybe discuss maybe some 608 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 2: of the most relevant ones you think would apply to 609 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 2: people specifically in their twenties, for who anxiety is definitely 610 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 2: in everyday reality. 611 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 3: The most relevant piece of information in the book is 612 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 3: that our cultural tendency to try to squelch and get 613 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 3: rid of our anxiety is not it's not helpful. It 614 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 3: is a not going to happen. You will never get 615 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 3: rid of all your anxiety. B. The more you try 616 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 3: to get rid of your anxiety, the worst it comes back. 617 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 3: You know, anybody who's done cognitive behavior therapy knows this 618 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 3: one that if you don't accept it, and if you 619 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 3: don't you know, to let yourself feel it, then it's 620 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 3: just going to make it worse. But see, most importantly, 621 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 3: anxiety can teach you a lot about your own thoughts, 622 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 3: about your own feelings. It can allow you to have 623 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 3: more resilience that when you feel uncomfortable, it's not that 624 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 3: anything else is. It's not that everything is going wrong, 625 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 3: it's not that there's something that catastrophize about. That's called 626 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,719 Speaker 3: having a human tapestry, a rich tapestry of human emotion. 627 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 3: And like we spoke about with you and your dad. 628 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 3: You can parlay that into our relationships, perhaps the most 629 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 3: important for your generation. You know a lot of people 630 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 3: are very ambitious today. If you're going to pursue your dreams, 631 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 3: you are going to hit stress, You are going to 632 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 3: hit struggles, you are going to feel anxious. And the 633 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 3: more we can learn to experience and let allow ourselves 634 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 3: to experience anxiety, the better positions we are to truly 635 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 3: accomplish our unique goals and dreams in this world. So 636 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 3: that's kind of a summary of the book. And I 637 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 3: don't know what was that ten sentences or. 638 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 2: So, I think so pep talk. I didn't know I 639 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 2: needed it. Feels like that was that was hand selected 640 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 2: for me. Oh, I want to say thank you so 641 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 2: much for coming on. One final question, what do you 642 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 2: think is the current biggest misconception about anxiety in this generation? 643 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 3: I believe we have construed anxiety as a disease, as 644 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 3: a malady, And yes, of course it can get disordered 645 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 3: in certain cases and excessive to the point that it 646 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 3: becomes debilitating. But one of the primary reasons why we're 647 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 3: doing that is because we don't embrace it. We don't 648 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 3: understand that this is part and parcel of our humanity. 649 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,760 Speaker 3: We are limited, finite creatures in a very complex world. 650 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 3: And if we're going to feel overwhelmed and stressed and 651 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 3: anxious at times, well, guess what that means. You're a human. 652 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 3: We don't have that perspective. And when we start to 653 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 3: accept and understand this is part of life, we can 654 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 3: use it. I think we can use it for good. 655 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,399 Speaker 3: I really do think we can use it for good. 656 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 2: I'm hoping that everyone is listening loud and clear to that. 657 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 2: I think I agree with that. I want to say 658 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on, and I'm super 659 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 2: excited about your book. I want to really plug it 660 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 2: to the listeners here. If you have an interest, it 661 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 2: looks amazing. I think that if you love this podcast 662 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 2: it's evidence based, you're going to love this book as well. 663 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 2: So thank you so much, doctor Resmond for coming on 664 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 2: the show and for joining us with this conversation. 665 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. What an honor and a pleasure 666 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 3: to meet you. 667 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely anytime. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. 668 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 2: If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to leave 669 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 2: a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you 670 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 2: are listening right now. If you have an episode suggestion, 671 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 2: you can follow me at that Psychology podcast, or if 672 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 2: you have something to say about this episode, we'd love 673 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 2: to hear it, so get in touch and we will 674 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 2: be back next week for another episode.