1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Cable news is ripping us apart, dividing the nation, making 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: it impossible to function as a society and to know 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: what is true and what is false. The good news 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: is that they're failing and they know it. That is 5 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: why we're building something new. Be part of creating a new, better, healthier, 6 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: and more trustworthy mainstream by becoming a Breaking Points Premium 7 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: member today at breakingpoints dot com. Your hard earned money 8 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: is going to help us build for the midterms and 9 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: the upcoming presidential election so we can provide unparalleled coverage 10 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: of what is sure to be one of the most 11 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: pivotal moments in American history. So what are you waiting for? 12 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: Go to Breakingpoints dot com to help us out. The 13 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,919 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris story just continues to get better. Let's put 14 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: this up there on the screen. Her chief speechwrider, after 15 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: less than four months on the job, is leaving. This 16 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: is part of a broader Kamala exit. I tried to 17 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: come up with a good one for that one, but 18 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: I couldn't. Of her entire senior staff for top advisors leaving, 19 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,040 Speaker 1: Comm's director left, She's had a massive reshuffle, more so 20 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: even than the White House. She's had three or four 21 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: different people in different iterations of the job. And now 22 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: the chief speech rider is on her way out after 23 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: a variety of gaffes. Now, I think it's frankly unfair 24 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: to blame the chief speech writer. It's clearly the communicator. 25 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: It's not the speech rider herself. But I think this 26 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 1: is a woman deeply insecure, unable to eat or take 27 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: responsibilities for any of her own failures, and probably forced 28 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: this or made this lady's life complete hell miserable, and 29 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: force her to basically leave because she blamed her for 30 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: her communications problem. It ain't the communications team, Okay, she 31 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: could have freaking the best comms people on earth. If 32 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: the product is bad, there ain't much she can do 33 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah. And one of the other things that 34 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: we had seen come out before is that she doesn't prepare. Yeah, 35 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: and then when she's caught unawares or flat footed, then 36 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: she yells at her staff, who listen, you can lead 37 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it. 38 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 1: So if you prepare everything, and you've got the briefings 39 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: and the binders and all that, and your principal isn't 40 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: engaging with it, then there's nothing you can do ultimately 41 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: as staff. This is a long running theme not just 42 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: from Kamala Harris as Vice president, but also when she 43 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: was Attorney General and when she was district attorney in 44 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: San Francisco. There was tons of turnover in her office 45 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: from all of those places. And I just saw this 46 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: morning there's a piece from The Hill by Aby Parnes, 47 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: who's very sort of mainstream respected political journalist, talking about 48 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: how it's a significant issue for her that she has 49 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: very few people who have been with her throughout her career. 50 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: It's always this churn and burn and new people coming 51 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: in and basically being chewed up and spin out. So 52 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: the latest one is the Vice President's domestic policy advisor, 53 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: Rahini Kosoglu. I'm sure I'm butchering that, but this is 54 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: one of her closest and longest serving staff members who's 55 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: now leaving her office. Now. They say that she's leaving 56 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: on good terms, she just was ready to move on, 57 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. But it becomes an issue when 58 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: you don't have people around you who actually know who 59 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: you are, know how you operate, know what your institutional 60 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: history is, know what your strengths are, know what your weaknesses. 61 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: Are know what your actual values are to the extent 62 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: that you have any It strikes me as kind of 63 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: the opposite of the problem that Biden has, because he 64 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: has these dudes who've been around him for like literally 65 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: fifty years, right and still alive, and so he has 66 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: an opposite issue of having anyone come in from the 67 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: outside who may have a more updated view of how 68 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: politics works. Because he just trusts this core group of 69 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: like four people and has trouble letting anyone else in 70 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,119 Speaker 1: the circle. She has the opposite issue of it's constantly 71 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: a carousel of new staffers. And ultimately, this is what 72 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: you always see in DC senators or members of Congress 73 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: who have a reputation for a lot of staff turnover. 74 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: It means they're a shitty boss, it means they're an asshole, 75 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: means they're miserable to work with. And it seems to 76 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: be the case of the Vice president. Everybody in Washington 77 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: knows the names of these people. Klobatar, Sheila Jackson, Lee 78 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: are going to go down the list. Those two, yeah, right, 79 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: those are the two worst. But I mean it's funny 80 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: I heard about the Clobatar. I think not the comb specifically, 81 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: but I heard she was a horrific boss for years, 82 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: way before any of the stuff that she ever ran 83 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: for president. Everybody knows, you know, the lists of these names, 84 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: and she was always up there. And so now you 85 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: know she goes to the vice president. She's behaving exactly 86 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: as she did. When somebody tells you who they are, 87 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: believe them. And so when people staff are leaving after 88 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,239 Speaker 1: just four months and she's blaming them, the terrible sign 89 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: just absolutely terrible. Indeed. Up in Pennsylvania, John Fetterman just 90 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: continues to relentlessly troll his Republican opponent, doctor Oz, painting him, 91 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,119 Speaker 1: I think, very effectively as a rich, out of touch 92 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: New Jersey and carpe carpetbagger. Here's the latest. So he 93 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: has started a petition to nominate doctor Oz to the 94 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: New Jersey Hall all of Fame. Hey tweets, I'm asking 95 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: everyone to do something nice today help doctor Oz reach 96 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: his dream of being inducted in the New Jersey Hall 97 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: of Fame. We're celebrating his hashtag Jersey Strong legacy. Sign 98 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: our official petition today. He also went so far this 99 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: is very clever, goodiness smart. Yeah, you can imagine the 100 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: brainstorming sessions are just like hilariously entertaining. But they also 101 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: paid for a cameo from Snookie from the Jersey Shore also, 102 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: you know, talking about doctor Oz and how they won't 103 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: forget him in New Jersey. Let's take a listen to that. Hey, 104 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: may met. This is Nicole Snookie and I'm from Jersey Shore. 105 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've seen of it before, but 106 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: I'm a hot mess on a reality show basically, and 107 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: I enjoy life. But I heard that you moved from 108 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: New Jersey to Pennsylvania to look for a new job. 109 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: And personally, I don't know why anyone would want to 110 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: leave Jersey because it's like the best place ever and 111 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: we're all hot messed is. But I want to say 112 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 1: best of luck to you. I know you're away from 113 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: home and you're in a new place, but Jersey will 114 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: not forget you. I just want to let you know 115 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: I will not forget you, and don't worry because you'll 116 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: be back home in Jersey soon. This is only temporary, 117 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: so good luck. You got this and Jersey loves you amazing. 118 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: You got to give it to the man because he 119 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: ever's running that campaign. If it's him, I don't know, 120 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: if it's team. But look, I mean, he's getting destroyed 121 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 1: and Oz is just I got to eat a lot 122 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:35,799 Speaker 1: of shit on this one. I thought he would be 123 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: a very effective politician. He is truly flailing. Let's go 124 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: ahead and put this up there on the screen. So 125 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: he's running like a Trump style. Let thet's set record straight. 126 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: I'm running against Bernie Sanders two point zero. That's why 127 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: I'm fighting so hard for you. Pennsylvania deserves better, America 128 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: deserves better. It's like, where did you did a bot 129 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: write this tweet? Yeah? What is happening? As we've already said, 130 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: don't talk about John Fetterman for a second run against 131 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: Joe Biden. Right, it's not hard. Joe Biden has a 132 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: thirty percent approval rating in the state of Pennsylvania, which 133 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: is like twenty five points less than John Fetterman, who 134 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: already has won statewide office. Joe Biden is bad. I'll 135 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: vote against him. Wow, is this difficult? By the way, 136 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: what are you doing? Bernie Sanders is a lot more 137 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: popular than Joe Biden. Bad. Like, if you just look 138 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: at the net favorability ratings, Bernie Sanders, you are choosing 139 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: to position yourself versus a much more popular politician than 140 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,239 Speaker 1: Joe Biden, who is the sitting president of the United States. 141 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: It's just it's just lame. It doesn't land, it doesn't 142 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: have any sort of like flare or flavor to it. 143 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: And the bottom line is the carpetbager stuff eight. I 144 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: mean it fits. I mean's obviously true. It's obviously true. 145 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: And I think because it's not just he's from out 146 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: of state, which I mean less of politicians do this 147 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: all the time, but that he's this wealthy Hollywood dude 148 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: with all the mansions around the world, like literally filmed 149 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: a campaign ad from his mansion in New Jersey. That 150 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,119 Speaker 1: brings it to a sort of every man populous level 151 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: where it's about more than just being from out of state. 152 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: The proof is in the pudding. Like Fetterman is outperforming 153 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: the gubernatorial race. He's clearly sort of running uphill in 154 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: terms of the national environment, and right now has secured 155 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: a outside the margin of era lead over Oz is 156 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: in decent position. And this is all while he has 157 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: still been recovering from a stroke. Recently, I had a 158 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: public appearance. He actually looked fine, by the way, so 159 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: that's good reporting. That said, he couldn't speak was wrong. 160 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: So listen, I wish the man well. I hope he's healthy, 161 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: so he looks good, and the more that he's able 162 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: to go out on the campaign trail if he doesn't 163 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: get tired. He says he can do walks and stuff. 164 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: I mean, he's he's nuking OZ right now. OZ is 165 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: a disaster. He's not up on the airwaves. Clearly, by 166 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: the way, I know, the idiots who write tweets like that, 167 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: they all work at the RNC. So clearly he's been hiring. Yeah. No, 168 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: fans of mine over here all work at the RNC. 169 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: Clearly he's been hiring them. He's been hiring all these 170 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: idiot consultants and they're gonna do what they do best, 171 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: which just bleed him dry and try and lose an election. Yeah, 172 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: they're performing well at that job right now. Congratulations. Seriously, 173 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: I really don't even know what to say. I've never 174 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: been more disappointed in somebody. I really thought. I mean, look, 175 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: you don't become a massive TV star for no accident. 176 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: You think there's some requisite amount of talent or something there. 177 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: But he just clearly it's just not one. I don't know, 178 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 1: he's you know, what can happen sometimes to people who 179 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: are new to politics, is they think that these DC 180 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: people and the political consultants and whatever that they actually 181 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: know something, you know, and so he probably has certain 182 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 1: instincts in a certain direction. But he's just like, Oh, 183 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 1: these these people know they're the experts. Let me just 184 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: listen to them, because you're getting a totally DC cookie 185 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: cutter campaign out of him versus someone who, for once, 186 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: the Democrats actually chose someone who's a good candidate, who 187 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: understands how to understand the electorate, understands how to win, 188 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: has a great character in persona is extraordinarily effective. And yeah, 189 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: they're at the moment they are getting crushed. And I 190 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: think it's hard. Once a hard caricature like this has 191 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 1: been set of who someone is, it becomes very hard 192 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: to overcome that. And if you do anything that plays 193 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: into the stereotype, you just you just kill yourself. So 194 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 1: interesting story in the New York Times about some unexpected migration. 195 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and put this up on the screen. 196 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: It makes perfect sense. The headline here is how the 197 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: path to home ownership runs through Mexico. San Diego residents 198 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 1: are moving to Tijuana to get more for their money, 199 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: some hope to save for down payments on houses that 200 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: are way out of reach north of the border, they say. 201 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: In San Diego, the median sales price of a family 202 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: home single family home hit one million dollars in April, 203 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: and a February report declared the city the least affordable 204 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: metro area in the US, by passing San Francisco, in 205 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: large part because of a fourteen percent increase in median 206 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: home sales prices for the year. Rent also has jumped 207 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: up massively. They say. The rise in home prices pales 208 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: in comparison and jump in rents. In June, the rent 209 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: for a one bedroom home almost three thousand dollars nine 210 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: hundred and one dollars according rent dot com. That was 211 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: nineteen percent higher than a year ago. Two bedroom apartments 212 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 1: averaging almost four thousand dollars three thousand, seven hundred and 213 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: seventy two. Nationally, the average is about two thousand dollars. 214 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: So you have this increasing trend of people who are 215 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: able from the pandemic to work remote, who are able 216 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: to earn their US salaries, moving across the border where 217 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: rents and home prices are actually obtainable so that they 218 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: can you know, afford to live basically and potentially sock 219 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,599 Speaker 1: away a down payment for a house back on the 220 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: other side of the board. And apparently the same thing's 221 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: happening with gas. Ciadad Juarez gas is three dollars and 222 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: eleven cents, So apparently gas is that much cheaper in 223 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: Mexico where people are literally driving across the border filling 224 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: up their tanks and coming back to the United States 225 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: because the Mexican government is heavily focused on drilling and 226 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: refining as much gas as possible, and they also have 227 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 1: much more protectionist policies in place for their consumers than 228 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: apparently the United States does as one of the largest 229 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: energy consumers on Earth. So I mean, I think this 230 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: is just insanity, right, which is It's like when Bernie 231 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: on the campaign trail we talk about all those people 232 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: who go to Canada to go buy insulin, which is 233 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: what is this, you know, literally regulatory arbitrage in order 234 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: to get cheaper gas or to be able to go 235 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: afford to buy a home. This is probably not good 236 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: for Mexicans either. I mean, they don't probably want all 237 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: these Americans moving in pushing their rent and home prices. 238 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: So I'm sure, they're pissed off. Actually, I'd heard a 239 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: story about Mexico City. It was like posting signs in 240 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: their cafes being like Americans go home, because people were 241 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: pissed that people were coming to Mexico City to live 242 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: like this itinerant lifestyle while working remotely, and they're like, 243 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 1: you're taking up all the space. Yeah, look, it causes obviously, 244 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 1: pitting people against each other not necessarily a good thing. 245 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: So I don't know, I mean, it's just highlights how 246 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: broken the system is. Well, it does. The housing piece 247 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: is really a massive problem. And you know, before we 248 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: started talking about inflation, house prices have been skyrocketing out 249 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: of reach for decades, but somehow that's not considered inflation, 250 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: even though it's obviously like a core component of being 251 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: able to live. Education, housing, and healthcare prices have been 252 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: going up and up and up and up, way beyond, 253 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: way outside of what inflation has and those are the 254 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: bedrock pieces of a sort of stable middle class life, 255 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: and that is just increasingly out of reach for Americans. 256 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: So you see strategies like this. One of the women 257 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: that they interviewed here, she actually teaches at San Diego 258 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: City College. She is paying only seven hundred dollars a 259 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: month in rent for a two bedroom, two story house 260 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: as opposed to about four thousand for you know, the 261 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: same would cost in San Diego. She does say that, 262 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: you know, it's more stressful, the roads have more potholes 263 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: in them, the air quality is least. She said, she 264 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: actually hasn't had much of a problem with crime, even 265 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: though that's kind of the narrative about Tijuana. But there 266 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: so she would rather be in Sandy. Oh, she can't 267 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: afford it. So it is a sad state of affairs 268 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: that you have so many Americans who just can't afford 269 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: the basics of living in the town where they work. 270 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: You see this internal migration as well. You've seen some 271 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: of these sort of boom towns around the country. We 272 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: covered a story of I think it was somewhere in 273 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: Oregon that the local people who had been born and 274 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: raised there they were being priced down of their own 275 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: communities because you had this massive influx of people who 276 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: were earning you know, Silicon Valley level salaries but are 277 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: able to work from anywhere in the country. Now, that's 278 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: a great thing for them that they're able to move 279 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: around and have affordability, but we should be able to have, 280 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: you know how saying that's affordable for everyone. And of 281 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: course exacerbating this entire situation is the amount of permanent 282 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: capital that is going in and buying up single family 283 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: homes and further jacking up the prices. So just I 284 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: guess the symptom of a really broad problem across the country. Yeah, 285 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: I think it is. You know, all this regulatory arbhage, 286 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: It has all kinds of insanity and follow on effects, 287 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: and it just shows you that, like when people have 288 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: to do that, things are bad, like driving across the 289 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: border to go get gas. What kind of country we're 290 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: living in here? Yeah. Indeed, some new moves from former 291 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: MSNBC host Keith Olberman Apparently he is moving into the 292 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: digital game, launching a podcast, Let's Go In Through a Wall. 293 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: Street Journal had the report here. They say Keith Olberman 294 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: tries his hand at podcasting Countdown with Keith Olberman on 295 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: iHeartMedia to include mix up political and sports commentary. I 296 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: guess he owns that name because that was the name 297 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: of his show on MSNBC. He probably licensed it to 298 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: them back in the day. Whatever, anyway, that's the name. 299 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: He's going with. It's kind of funny reading his justification 300 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: for this. First of all, he's says he has so 301 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: much money, he doesn't need to work anymore. It's just 302 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: all for the people. It's just all all for the cause. 303 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: And he says that what's going to distinguish him is 304 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: he says, people do these podcasts with the idea they 305 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: have to live for a week. This has replaced radio 306 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: into a large part television. Why not present something that 307 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: is there every day for people. My goal is that 308 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: you'll be able to listen to this thing and get 309 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: everything that happened. It won't be here we are reacting 310 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: to last week's news, as if there aren't already like 311 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: a million podcasts that do daily content reacting to the 312 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: most recent news. So I though it was interesting. It's 313 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: always fun to watch people who have inflated view of 314 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: their following and relevance jump into what is actually more 315 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: of sort of a free market competition in the podcast 316 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: world and see how it works out for them. Yeah, 317 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: they also apparently Katie Kuric has a podcast. I mean, 318 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: this is the thing. These major TV personalities who have 319 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: had everything done for them their entire lives, This is 320 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: a hard job. It's actually way more on you as 321 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: a personality. You don't get to rely on your producers 322 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: who make up guest segments for you. You You and I 323 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 1: program every single element of our show, every single one 324 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,959 Speaker 1: all the monologues are written by us. I can assure 325 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: you that's not the case over at any of the 326 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: major cable networks. I mean, almost every element of production 327 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: and more is like deeply personal to the both of 328 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: us who come up with systems. These people are so 329 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: reliant on others. And also it's I just hate the 330 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: way that he detigrates the space of like interviewing one 331 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: another and the material felt outdated. It's like, what does 332 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: that mean? As if you're talking about the most relevant 333 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: stuff and you're not interviewing each other constantly on your 334 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: idiot GQ show like back in twenty seventeen. Yeah, because 335 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: cable is well known for the servicing the diversity of 336 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: views and making sure that they're not talking about outdated material. 337 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: The number one topic on cable news right now is 338 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: January sixth, twenty twenty one. Okay, so that's my point. 339 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't see how this could be differentiated whatsoever. 340 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 1: And I love how they always point to stuff like 341 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: the Daily. Guess what you're not the Daily? The Daily 342 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: is actually a good I don't listen to it, but 343 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 1: I mean I know a lot of people who do. 344 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: If you're a normal person, you're upper middle class, you're 345 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: walking to work in New York City, the Daily is 346 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: a great way to quote feel informed. Same with NPR. 347 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: They do a first and all it. They do a 348 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: good job. Yeah, twenty minutes or so BBC World New Yes, 349 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: they do like the five minute thing or whatever wrap 350 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: up because they're on a different time zone. This is 351 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,719 Speaker 1: not a real service that anybody wants. And so you know, 352 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: I wish him the best. I guess Also, if he 353 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: really has enough money, watch I bet you will be 354 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: reading ads on his very first show because he's doing 355 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: it with iHeartRadio. So true. Yeah, I mean Olderman at MSNBC, 356 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: he really was the the person who made MSNBC into 357 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: a liberal channel, because it wasn't like Fox News had 358 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 1: this ideological project from the beginning from the jump MSNBC, 359 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: it wasn't that it was they just wanted to be 360 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: a sort of generalized news competitor to CNN. And then 361 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: when Olberman's show hits and he's relentlessly going after George W. 362 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: Bush and going after the Iraq war. It met the moment, 363 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: and why he was so successful is first of all, 364 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: I mean, I do think that he's a like putting 365 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: his cringe views aside. He's a skilled broadcaster, he's got 366 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: a big personality. He's also a total asshole, like relentless 367 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: asshole to the people that work for him, and just 368 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: kind of a horrible human being in that way. I know, 369 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: I know, But he does have this sort of like, 370 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 1: you know, big charismatic personality. He was saying something that 371 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: people couldn't get anywhere else, and that's the piece that 372 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: made him such a success there. And then MSNBC goes 373 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 1: on to basically replicate his show. Rachel Maddow comes out of, 374 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: you know, being a guest on his show. Then she 375 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 1: spins off Chris Hayes it was a regular guest on 376 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: her show, and they sort of end up going in 377 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: this liberal direction. But that wasn't the plan to begin with. 378 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: Now his views are so commonplace there. If you want 379 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,479 Speaker 1: to hear you know, resistance lib view of the world there, 380 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: you can go to cable News, you can go to 381 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: the pod Safe Bros. There's a lot of time. There's 382 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: even an established space that is already successful in podcast 383 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: in resistance lib worlds. So I mean, you already have 384 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: a variety of products. It's hard to see what your 385 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 1: competitive edge here. And his theory of the case that 386 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: there aren't any or aren't enough daily podcasts, I just don't. 387 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: I just don't see that really to be to be accurate. 388 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: So we'll see how it pans out. Yeah, let's see. 389 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: So I was minding my own business in India, had 390 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: some time on my end, as one does, I open 391 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: up Instagram and my entire feed has changed. And it 392 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: turns out this is a major departure for the app, 393 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 1: which is changing social media. So let's put this up 394 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: there on the screen. Facebook has announced that their new 395 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: site design will basically exactly copy TikTok on the homepage 396 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: of your your Instagram app. So to try and describe 397 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: it to you, guys, the reels feature in Instagram now 398 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 1: exists as your entire home feed. So you know how 399 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: people would pay posts and you would scroll through them, 400 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: that doesn't exist anymore now. Whenever you want to scroll 401 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: through something as Crystal is doing. Yeah right now, Yeah, yeah, 402 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: you can open it, try and scroll through. What you 403 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 1: see is it takes over your entire phone yep, and 404 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: keep scrolling and now you have to go post by post. 405 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: The thing is you no longer get to choose whether 406 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: you're going to scroll past videos or not. It makes 407 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: you look at each individual post. It doesn't actually show 408 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: you the caption all that prominently. And this is a 409 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: major departure because a lot of people like us not 410 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: only used to this Instagram, but like this Instagram and 411 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: it's caused a lot of consternation. But it does show 412 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: you that there's a massive war right now for attention. 413 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: Which is that the reason this is happening per a 414 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: lot of tech insiders and others I spoke to, is 415 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: Instagram is just simply getting killed amongst teenagers in time 416 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: on app TikTok that not only beats them, but beats 417 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: them by a mile. And the quote aged millennials, which 418 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: apparently we now are, which is sad to admit, are 419 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: not posting enough in order to keep up with the 420 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: engagement time even if you or I may even like 421 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: the app, and I think it highlights a couple of things. 422 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: Number One, there is no innovation in social media anymore. 423 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: The new update to Instagram is to make it the 424 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: goddamn TikTok, which we did not ask for nor wanted, 425 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: And yet they're forcing you to engage in this because 426 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: they need us to spend more time on the app 427 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: so that they can sell more ads, ruining the user experience. 428 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: The other interesting thing that I thought was a was 429 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: highlighted is yesterday actually an Instagram product manager. He since 430 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: deleted as tweets, but put out a thread where he 431 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: basically said, listen, millennials, we don't care about you. We 432 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 1: only care about teenagers about acquiring that market share. That's 433 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: why we did this, and in order for this to work, 434 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: we need them to acquire more users. Here's a problem though, 435 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: according to my Zoomer sources, Instagram is being ruthlessly mocked 436 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: on TikTok for car because they're like, this is a 437 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: shitty TikTok. They're like, we're already here, we don't need this. 438 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: We were to the extent that we were using it. 439 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: We were using it to like post, you know, one 440 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: photo a month. Apparently it's very hot consumers right now 441 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 1: they post like one post and they do like twelve. 442 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: They may call me a boomer if I post for 443 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: more than that, I think it's all funny, you know whatever, 444 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 1: We can all have our own thing. But it highlights 445 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: just the game for attention, the fact that frankly, TikTok 446 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: won in the social media wars. I think it exposes 447 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: something really gross too, which is that all that ever 448 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: mattered was time on app. User experience doesn't matter. No, 449 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if you like it hate. I hate 450 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 1: the current thing, and they don't care because probably statistically 451 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: they'll force me to spend more time as I'm scrolling, 452 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: and that's the only thing that these people can only 453 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: game that matter. That is the bedrock thing to remember 454 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: when you are on any of these apps, your experience 455 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: of it. They don't care whether you like it or 456 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 1: hate it. All they care about is whether you are 457 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: on the app because why because that allows them to 458 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: collect more of your data. It allows them to serve 459 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: you more ads. So that's who they're serving, is those 460 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: advertisers and being able to bundle your data and sell 461 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: it to third parties. That's the piece that they actually 462 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: care about. I mean, this is one of the things 463 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: that came out of the Facebook leaks that actually was 464 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: I mean you know, it's not a surprise, but it 465 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: was interesting to get the details. Is they changed some 466 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: of the functionality of Facebook, and the response to it 467 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: was people were like, we don't like this, Like we 468 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 1: find this to be a more unpleasant experience. And basically 469 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: I think it had to do what they were serving 470 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: people more sort of like outrageous content and making them 471 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: feel angry and making them feel hate. But it was 472 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: keeping them on the app late longer, and ultimately that 473 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: was all they cared about. They didn't care about the 474 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 1: fact that users were saying, I like the app less 475 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 1: now than I did before. But they're like, yeah, but 476 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: you're here longer, aren't you. So that's all we ultimately care. 477 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: It's really sad, Yeah it is. I loved Instagram. I 478 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 1: genuinely did. It's always been my favorite social media platform. 479 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: It has a nice, just dead vibe. Then yeah, I 480 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: mean it's like I've so, you know, Kyle's not on Instagram, 481 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 1: so when he looks at my comments under he's like, 482 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: people are so nice. Oh yeah, they're super nice comments. 483 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: It's fun, like there's stuff that I've curated. There are 484 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: certain types of people like to check up on, you 485 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: know whatever, not to mention like your friends. It's interesting, 486 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: you know the Kardashians are speaking out the Kylie Jenner. Well, 487 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: the reason this matters because the last time in twenty 488 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: eighteen that Kylie said she didn't use Snapchat anymore, they 489 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: lost a billion dollars value on their Wow. Yeah, so 490 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: both both Kylie and Kim have come out and trashed 491 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: the new update. Who knows. I don't think it will work, 492 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: to be honest, because they can see the data they 493 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: need the teens, and that's all they care about, so 494 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: effectively ruined the experience for billions of people. To your 495 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: point about how there is no innovation with social media 496 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: or Silicon Valley, it's just like, oh, this is working. 497 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 1: Less copy it. I mean, YouTube so doing the same 498 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: thing they're pushing on their shorts, right, that's their big 499 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: push now because again they see the way that you know, 500 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 1: TikTok is what's going on with TikTok so, And we've 501 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: seen Facebook has gone through several of these iterations. I mean, 502 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: they're desperate because their user base is just atrophying like crazy. 503 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 1: And yeah, it's just it's not relevant, it's not cool 504 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: at all. So if Instagram is dated, Facebook is ten 505 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: times more so. So it's kind of a statement. Statement 506 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: on the business model, statement on the way that you 507 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: have turned into a commodity, statement on the fact that 508 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: these people who are allowed it as like geniuses and 509 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: innovators and whatever, they're not. Really, they're just copying what 510 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: everybody else is doing. It honestly sucks like it's a great, 511 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: terrible development. Jason Candor was an up and coming Democratic star. 512 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 1: He had had a very successful run for Senate and 513 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: had been blessed by Barack Obama to potentially run for 514 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: president when he was forced to take a step back 515 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: from political life in order to deal with his own 516 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: internal struggles with PTSD. And Jason is out with a 517 00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: new book, and he joins us, now, great to see 518 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: j Great to Dcing, Great to be with you. We've 519 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: got the book jacket up on the screen there. It's 520 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: titled Invisible Storm, a Soldier's Memoir of Politics and PTSD. 521 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: I'd love for you to just start by actually kind 522 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: of reintroducing yourself to our audience and laying out that 523 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: trajectory you were on and how it was completely derailed 524 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: from where you expected originally. Sure, so I deployed the 525 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: Afghanistan as an intelligence officer for the army in two 526 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: thousand and six, and then, to give the short version, 527 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: proceeded to have a pretty fast rise in American politics, 528 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: from the state legislature to Secretary of State of Missouri 529 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: to just barely losing a US Senate race in a 530 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: very red state, Missouri, and then you know, was one 531 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: of like, I don't know, there were a few dozen 532 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: of us in twenty eighteen who are thinking we were 533 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: going to run for president in twenty twenty on the 534 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: Democratic side was running around doing that. But the whole 535 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: time I was having you know, untreated and diagnosed I 536 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: had untreated, undiagnosed PTSD from my time in Afghanistan, and 537 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: I was basically trying to outrun it. And that got 538 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: harder and harder, and right when I was, you know, 539 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: really getting to the point where I was going to 540 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: officially announce for president, I was doing that soft running. 541 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: Everybody knew I was running, but I legally couldn't say 542 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 1: I was running thing. It just it was getting bad 543 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: enough where I just I couldn't keep going. So I decided, well, 544 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to go back home. I'm going to run 545 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: for mayor. My hometown, Kansas City, and I'm going to 546 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: go get help at the VA. I kept half that 547 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: promise to myself. I started running for mayor. It was 548 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: going really well, we were going to win that race, 549 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: but I didn't go to the VA like I told 550 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: myself I would do, and I just started getting worse faster, 551 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: and it went from you know, the normal stuff that 552 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: I was having night terrors, hypervigilants, that kind of thing, 553 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: to also now including depression and suicidal thoughts. And so, 554 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: you know, about three months into that campaign for mayor, 555 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: despite how well the campaign was going, I was not 556 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: going well and I said, you know, at this ain't working, 557 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: and I dropped out of public life for a while 558 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: to do a good help at the VA. What was 559 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: that moment for you where you said, I can't outrun 560 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: this thing. You know, it's I describe it in the 561 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: book as the international capital of zero f's left to give. 562 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: It was rock bottom. It was just it's nice that 563 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: people tend to give me like a lot of credit 564 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: for making that decision, but in my life at that moment, 565 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: it didn't feel like much of a decision. I knew 566 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,479 Speaker 1: that I didn't want to want to die, and it 567 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: was time to try to do something, anything, and I 568 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: was running out of ideas. So I actually called the 569 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: Veterans Crisis Line at the VA. And you know, for 570 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: all that time, over a decade, I had been telling 571 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: myself this fiction that well, it can't be PTSD, and 572 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: I had all these different reasons for that. But when 573 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: I heard the sound of the woman's voice on the 574 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: other end of the line at the Veterans Crisis Line, 575 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: it was just very evident to me that I didn't 576 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: sound any different than anybody else she had talked to 577 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: in that job. And that was a really important realization 578 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: for me. That helped me say, you know what, I 579 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: got to take this seri and that's when I decided 580 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: to go get help. And the reason I decided to 581 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: publicly state why I was dropping out and that I 582 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: was going to go get help for PTSD is I 583 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: just figured, you know, maybe if somebody had done that 584 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: several years earlier on the platform that I was doing 585 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: it on, then maybe that would have encouraged me to 586 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: take a look at my own symptoms and say, maybe 587 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: this is PTSD. And it turns out it did have 588 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: that effect for a lot of people, which is maybe 589 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: one of the you know, definitely one of the most 590 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: important things I've ever actually done. Yeah, I mean, it's 591 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: incredible the direction's life takes you in. You wanted to 592 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: have a platform to make a difference in people's lives. 593 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: I'm sure this wasn't the way that you anticipated doing it, 594 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: but that's the way life throws you curveballs you never expect. 595 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: You know. One of the things that you write about 596 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: in the book is how you almost had to give 597 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: yourself permission to have suffered this trauma and to have 598 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: the diagnosis of PTSD. I'd love for you to talk 599 00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: a little bit more about that, because I think that's 600 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: really important. Yeah. You know, in my case, I was 601 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: an Army intelligence officer who my job was to go 602 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: out and to meet with people who were pretty unsavory 603 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: characters in a lot of cases, and there was always 604 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: the possibility that my translator and I were being lured 605 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: into a trap, that there was a possibility of being 606 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: kidnapped and killed. And that is really the source of 607 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: a lot of, you know, the cumulative trauma that I 608 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: experienced just that constantly knowing where all the exits are, 609 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: how many people between me and my vehicle, always being ready. 610 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: But the thing is I never fired my weapon my 611 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: whole deployment, and so I came home believing that that 612 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: didn't count and that there's no way that could be traumatic. 613 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: I had friends who had been shot things like that, 614 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: and so I went all these years saying like, well 615 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: if I say that this is PTSD instead of just 616 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: something wrong with me, well, that to me was like 617 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: stealing balor from my friends who had been physically wounded. 618 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: And the thing about that is is it's not just 619 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: the military where that can happen. I mean, I meet 620 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: so many people now who will tell me about what 621 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: they've been going through, and then they'll caveat what they 622 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: say with well I wasn't in a war or anything. 623 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: And I always say, look, you know, I spent a 624 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: lot of years trying to rank my trauma out of 625 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: existence by saying, well it it's not as bad as 626 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: this person, and that's a waste of time. All it 627 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: did was it delayed my opportunity to heal and to 628 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: go get treatment. Trauma is trauma. It doesn't a car accident, 629 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: a bad divorce, surviving cancer, losing a loved one, stuff 630 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: that happens in your childhood, like or when a war. 631 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. If it's something that you haven't been 632 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: able to move past in your brain and it's still 633 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: affecting you, well, then it's something you have to deal with, 634 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: and there's no point in trying to compare it to 635 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: someone else's. You're obviously in a much better place. Now, 636 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,959 Speaker 1: what are some of the things that for you personally 637 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: were effective in terms of treatment? Yeah, so I appreciate 638 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: asking that because I'm in a chapter of my life 639 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: I think of as post traumatic growth, and it's important 640 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: that people know that that's achievable. For me. I went 641 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: to the VA. I did two types of therapy. I 642 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: did cognitive processing therapy and prolonged exposure therapy, which the 643 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: short explanation is is that cognitive processing therapy is a 644 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: lot of it for me was just sort of being educated, 645 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: like going to graduate school about my brain, learning about 646 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: how the symptoms manifest and where they come from so 647 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: that I could spot them. And then the second thing, 648 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: prolonged exposure therapy is just you know, kind of going 649 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: straight to the trauma, talking about those intrusive thoughts and 650 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: those memories and talking about them enough where they no 651 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: longer have the grip on you and then doing some 652 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: other things. But look, whatever it is that people choose 653 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: to do, whatever treatment is their advice to do. You know, 654 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: I tell people like, look, that's what I did, but 655 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: if that hadn't been effective for me, I would have 656 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: gone on to try the next thing, So it's really 657 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: worth it. There are people around us all the time 658 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: who have achieved post traumatic growth. We don't ever see 659 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: it depicted on film, very rarely in the news, but 660 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: it's extremely common. But we can be left with the 661 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: impression that PTSD is a terminal diagnosis because all we 662 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: ever see is this voyeuristic PTSD porn depiction where you 663 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 1: have like a combat veteran who's been beating their spouse 664 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: and abusing drugs and robbing a bank. But that's not common. 665 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: What's common is people go to treatment and they get better, 666 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: and it's important for folks to know that so that 667 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 1: they'll go pursue it. I think that is incredibly important 668 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: for people to know. I'd love for you to talk 669 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 1: a little bit about the work that you're doing now, 670 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: because I think that's really important. You're the president of 671 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: National Expansion at Veterans Community Project. What is that thank 672 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: you for the opportunity to talk about a crystal. In fact, 673 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 1: all the royalties from Invisible Storm go to my Royalties 674 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: publisher likes to keep their part of the money go 675 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: to a Veterans Community Project. So Veterans Community Project is 676 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: an organization based in my hometown, Kansas City. It was 677 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: founded by some fellow combat veterans who set out to 678 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: do a couple of things. One to create a walk 679 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 1: in centers we call them outreach centers to where any veteran, 680 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: regardless of what their service was like, there's no just 681 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: qualifiers can come in and qualify for one hundred percent 682 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 1: of our services, which is everything from mental health treatment 683 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: to dental to you know, seeing a physician, to financial 684 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 1: literacy to job training, all sorts of stuff. What we're 685 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: much better known for is the residential side of what 686 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: we do, which is we build villages of tiny houses 687 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: for homeless veterans with wrap around case management services, and 688 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: we have an eighty five percent success rate of then 689 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 1: transitioning homeless veterans into permanent housing in the community where 690 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: they're fully contributing and you know, fully reintegrated members of 691 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: the community. And so it's pretty miraculous work. People can 692 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: go to VCP like Veterans Community Project dot org to 693 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: learn more. And I appreciate you asking me about it. Oh, 694 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 1: I should add, with the work that I do on 695 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: the President of National Expansion, we're taking it from Kansas 696 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: City to around the country. So we now are expanded 697 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 1: into the Denver area, of the Saint Louis area, sup Faul, 698 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: South Dakota. We just bought property in Oklahoma City to 699 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 1: build there, and then we have more cities coming on 700 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: after that. So guys, buy the book so you can 701 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: support that incredible work. Do you mind if I ask 702 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: you a couple of political questions? Your podcast hosts now, 703 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: so I assume that you're having a way into these things. 704 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: By the way, the podcast is called Majority fifty four. 705 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:11,879 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about one of the things 706 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: that I'm kind of most interested in, which is Missouri 707 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,760 Speaker 1: is not always a red state. Right, it's relatively recent 708 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: memory that Democrats would routinely win statewide office. You had 709 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: the sort of Carnahan political dynasty legacy. Of course, Claire 710 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: mccaskell was there. Not that long ago. You came very 711 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: close to winning your Senate seat. What happened? Why is 712 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: Missouri shifted so far to the right that now Democrats 713 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 1: don't even really pay attention to the state. Yeah, a 714 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: couple of things. One, I sometimes jokingly say that we 715 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,240 Speaker 1: officially joined the Southeastern Conference, that it wasn't just college sports, 716 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,359 Speaker 1: because what used to be that Iowa was a much 717 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: more of a swing state and Missouri was much more 718 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: in the Iowa category and now it sort of slid 719 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: into being more like Arkansas. Well that is a result 720 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: of you know, demographic changes that didn't keep up with 721 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: the rest of the country in the like one hundred 722 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 1: year period where Missouri was the bellwether state that everybody said, 723 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 1: so goes Missouri, so goes the nation. There's literally in 724 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: that period one presidential election where the country went a 725 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: different direction of Missouri, and it was when Adlai Stevenson, 726 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: who was in neighboring Illinois, ran and that was it. 727 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: And what you would see in that period was you 728 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: could take the map of the United States, including a 729 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,959 Speaker 1: demographic map, and lay it over Missouri and it would 730 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: look exactly the same. You had your population density on 731 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 1: the east and west coast of the state or of 732 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 1: the country. You had some population density in the middle 733 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: where we have the college town in Columbia, and then 734 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: you really had from the age race everything perspective, everything 735 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: lined up the same. Well. As the Latino population, for instance, 736 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: grew across the country, it didn't grow by the same 737 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:48,280 Speaker 1: rate in Missouri. And the aging demographics change, Missouri got older. 738 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: So when you combine those things, you know that affected things. 739 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: But on top of that, I think that there's, in 740 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: my opinion, a misnomer out there a debate in the 741 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 1: party that seems to be about whether or not the 742 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,879 Speaker 1: party should be more liberal or more moderate in order 743 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: to win over voters in places like Missouri. And I 744 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: actually think that that's the wrong discussion. I think that 745 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: where the disconnect is and that affects places like Missouri, 746 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:19,240 Speaker 1: like Iowa, Indiana, places like that, is that for us, 747 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: the main issue is are our kids going to have 748 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: to move away in order to you know, find a 749 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 1: good job, in order to be able to be successful. 750 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: And that's what we're all concerned about. I mean, my 751 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: son is about to turn nine, my daughter's about to 752 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: turn two, and I'm already like thinking about what can 753 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: I do to make it so that they want to 754 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 1: stay here. There's sixth generation Kansas Citians. I don't want 755 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,320 Speaker 1: to move to be around my grandkids, but I will. 756 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,399 Speaker 1: And my point is Democrats miss the fact that our 757 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,280 Speaker 1: policies actually, in my opinion, are better for that. Whether 758 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: it's about you know, doing something about college debt, raising wages, 759 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: making you know, our communities more safe from gun violence, 760 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: all of that stuff are things that make it more likely, 761 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: not less likely, that our kids are going to stay. 762 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: But we don't speak to it that way. And that's 763 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,479 Speaker 1: not because the leadership of the party is too liberal. 764 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: It's because the leadership of the party usually comes from 765 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: the places our kids move too for opportunity, right, Well, 766 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: we also hope to see this, and we also have 767 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: several decades now of Democratic presidents partnering with Republicans to 768 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 1: you know, pass trade deals that have had a devastating 769 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: impact on some of the places that you're talking about. 770 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 1: And so I think that has helped to strip Democrats 771 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: of credibility. When they say, no, we're the we're the 772 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: people who are looking out for your town. You're going 773 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: to make sure you have those good middle class jobs. 774 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: They say, yeah, well that's what you said before. And 775 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:40,880 Speaker 1: then we had NAFTA and you tried to pass TPP, 776 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: and you know, we've had decades of jobs moving overseas 777 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: that have stripped our communities of that sort of like 778 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 1: main job source and vitality, and along with that a 779 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: lot of like pride and identity that was built around 780 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 1: those industries as well. I mean, do you miss do 781 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,799 Speaker 1: you miss politics? Do you think about getting back into it? 782 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: And I also love to hear what you think of 783 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: We've been following Lucas Koons's race in for Senate in 784 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: Missouri very closely, and I think he's running a very 785 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:15,240 Speaker 1: interesting model of this very sort of populist, progressive type 786 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: of campaign that it strikes me it's going to be 787 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: a long time before Democrats gained back what they've lost 788 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: in these rural parts of the country and in the Midwest. 789 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: But it strikes me as a good approach and focusing 790 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: a lot on antitrust and monopoly issues. So tell me 791 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: what you think about Lucas Kunsen his campaign, and then 792 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: tell me if you're thinking about jumping back into politics. Look, 793 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: I've spoken to Lucas. He's just like a really smart guy. 794 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 1: I've also spoken to Trudy Bush Valentine, who's the other 795 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,760 Speaker 1: person running in that primary. I think they're both great. 796 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:47,879 Speaker 1: And look, my deal on this is like I've run 797 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: for Senate. I know how hard it is, and I 798 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: know that I have an outsized influence in the state, 799 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: and so I you know, for me, yeah, everybody's working hard. 800 00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to come in and like, you know, 801 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,800 Speaker 1: footstop this thing. I don't think that. But what I 802 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: will say about the state in general is that people 803 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: you know, in any state like Missouri that used to 804 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: be really competitive and now it's very hard to make 805 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: it competitive. What happens is is people come to people 806 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 1: like me and Claire mccaskell and folks like that, and 807 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 1: they're like, we need you to do this. This kind 808 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: of goes to the second part of your question. And 809 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 1: what I keep telling people is, look, if you look 810 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: at North Carolina, if you look at Georgia, if you 811 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: look at Colorado, you will see places that didn't go 812 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 1: election cycle to election cycle just trying to find the 813 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: perfect candidate. What they did is they said, let's build 814 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: an infrastructure, let's do something where we can actually make 815 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,120 Speaker 1: this state competitive in the long term. And there are 816 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: people in Missouri who are working to do that. People 817 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 1: like Lara Graanwich, people like Stephen Webber, and I'm really 818 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: interested in supporting those sort of efforts because that's the 819 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 1: long term play that needs to happen now. As far 820 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 1: as me getting back in, honestly, I don't miss running 821 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: like at all. And the thing for me is that 822 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: I have the luxury of, you know, I spent that 823 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: decade building up a platform to where now when I 824 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,840 Speaker 1: have something I want to say, I have friends like 825 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: you who I can call up and I can you know, 826 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,799 Speaker 1: get access to their platforms or you know, go on 827 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:14,839 Speaker 1: TV and talk about what I want to talk about, 828 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 1: and then I can go back to coaching little league 829 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,440 Speaker 1: and playing in an over thirty would beat baseball league 830 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,839 Speaker 1: and hanging out with my son and my daughter and 831 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: my wife. And that's really what I'm enjoying, and doing 832 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: this job that I love. I mean, this work at 833 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: VCP is the best civilian job I've ever had. So 834 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: I don't miss running. But I do still feel like 835 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: I'm involved in politics. I'm involved exactly the amount I 836 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: want to be involved, and for now that's just exactly 837 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: where I want it to be. Jason, is great to 838 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,880 Speaker 1: see you. I'm glad to hear that you are in 839 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,440 Speaker 1: a much better place and loving life. And I think 840 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,479 Speaker 1: the book is really genuinely good and very important as well, 841 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 1: so I really encourage people to check it out. Great 842 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:52,840 Speaker 1: to see you. Thank you so much for taking the 843 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 1: time you too, Thank you, Crystal. Hey everyone, this is 844 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,919 Speaker 1: kind of clip and sign breaking points in edition. I'm 845 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:05,319 Speaker 1: joined now by Raid Jerrar. He's the Advocacy director of 846 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: Democracy in the Arab World Now, or DON for short. 847 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,399 Speaker 1: The reason I have you on is because I really 848 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,360 Speaker 1: appreciate the work that Don does. They provide a useful 849 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: counterpoint to the hegemony of the think tanks here in 850 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 1: Washington that tell a very particular point of view with 851 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,279 Speaker 1: regard to the Middle East, and I don't think that's 852 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: a very honest one. I mean, if you look at 853 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,719 Speaker 1: and we'll be talking about President Biden's visit to Saudi Arabia, 854 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 1: which in itself is a form of normalization with that country. 855 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: The way in which the media covered that. I saw 856 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,360 Speaker 1: a ridiculous story in the Atlantic saying that Jamal Kashogi 857 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 1: would forgive NBS have given the chance, and I googled 858 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: the Atlantic's funding and I quickly found that they received 859 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 1: large sums of money from a company that itself receives 860 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: large sums of money from the Saudi's and that, unfortunately, 861 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: is a dynamic that's true across the board a lot 862 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,439 Speaker 1: of the with a lot of the think tanks. That's 863 00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,360 Speaker 1: not the case with Donna tell a very different picture, 864 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,839 Speaker 1: I think of more accurate one. So, first of all, 865 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:03,799 Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining us, thank you for 866 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:05,320 Speaker 1: having me. And so a theme that I wanted to 867 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:10,279 Speaker 1: focus on was not just that President Biden's visit to 868 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,840 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia, you know, was wrong in a moral sense, 869 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: but also how humiliating it was for him and for 870 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,319 Speaker 1: the United States internationally. Just to give you a couple 871 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:23,120 Speaker 1: of examples, he touches down Biden and his entourage and 872 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: they are greeted by a provincial governor first, not even 873 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,280 Speaker 1: by a head of state or anybody in MBS's cabinet. 874 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: And you know, in diplomatic circles, that's widely understood to 875 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,319 Speaker 1: be a kind of slap in the phase. And not 876 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 1: only that, once they ended up meeting, he wasn't greeted 877 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,239 Speaker 1: by the king when he came out of the car, 878 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 1: which has diplomatic significance as well. And then when they 879 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: ended up speaking, almost immediately after the bilateral meeting, the 880 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 1: Saudi start leaking things saying that Biden didn't bring up Kashogi. 881 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: Biden disputes that, and then subsequent to that, within twenty 882 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,359 Speaker 1: four hours of Biden's leaving the UAE country visited. After that, 883 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: the UAE arrests Jamak Kuchuggi's former lawyer, which again morally wrong, 884 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 1: but in addition to that, humiliating in an international sense. 885 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:10,840 Speaker 1: I can't think of any other country that would do 886 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,280 Speaker 1: something like that to the leader of the United States. 887 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 1: So could you speak to that a little bit from 888 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: your knowledge of the region and what this all means. 889 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: And also crucially for Americans, what did we get out 890 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,279 Speaker 1: of this out of this visit, because again, you know, 891 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,480 Speaker 1: there's morality and there's also interests, and it's not clear 892 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: to me that the US got anything out of it. 893 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,799 Speaker 1: I agree with your assessment. I think it was the 894 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,279 Speaker 1: worst of both worlds. It was the worst of both 895 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,759 Speaker 1: wolves in the sense that on the one hand, the 896 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:44,000 Speaker 1: Biden administration lost its moral capital and the moral standing. 897 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,959 Speaker 1: So you know, President Biden promised he will center human 898 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:50,960 Speaker 1: rights and over foreign policy. He's going to do this, 899 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,920 Speaker 1: He's going to do that. And the mere fact that 900 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,880 Speaker 1: he was willing to meet with someone like Mohammed sen 901 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 1: Man and other dictators apartheid regimes in the region in 902 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: a way that is completely empty of any moral centerds 903 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 1: by itself made him lose that truck and the other truck, 904 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:16,400 Speaker 1: like the truck of being a pragmatist, the real politic 905 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,759 Speaker 1: truck where we are told many times by this administration 906 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 1: and other administration that we are naive and we don't 907 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,279 Speaker 1: understand how the real world works and we have to 908 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 1: do some concessions to get some stuff out of it. 909 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,319 Speaker 1: What did we get out of this nothing? We got 910 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 1: nothing out of it. And when you look at the trip, 911 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,400 Speaker 1: whether it's the part where President Biden goes to Israel 912 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,480 Speaker 1: or whether it's a part that the President Biden goes 913 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 1: to Saudi Arabia, it is another classic example of the 914 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:49,920 Speaker 1: status quo of how Washington runs on autopilot, that we 915 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,880 Speaker 1: do things because we do these things, we repeat the 916 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,759 Speaker 1: same policies because they've been there for decades completely with 917 00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 1: no political analysis, with no vision, and there is nothing 918 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,920 Speaker 1: that came out of it like that. Even the claim 919 00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,080 Speaker 1: about oil that oh we have to go because we 920 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:07,960 Speaker 1: need some oil to be pumped out. This is nothing 921 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:09,879 Speaker 1: to happen. This is a pretext for looking the other 922 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,280 Speaker 1: way and all these human rights abuses. Kau Showgi is 923 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,920 Speaker 1: an emblem of that. But there are countless people that 924 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,000 Speaker 1: you know, are jailed on dubious pretexts. They don't really 925 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: have a rule of law in terms of being able 926 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:24,520 Speaker 1: to represent yourself in court. Countless activists not just jailed, 927 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,000 Speaker 1: in some cases killed. So it's much bigger than you know. 928 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,360 Speaker 1: KOs Shogi is an emblem of all of that. And 929 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,239 Speaker 1: so we're sort of told by the you know, quote 930 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 1: unquote adults in the room that we've got to be 931 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 1: grown ups here and you know things. You know, you 932 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,200 Speaker 1: have to break some eggs to have an empire and 933 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,399 Speaker 1: to get the oil and critical resources that we need. 934 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 1: You know, within days of Biden visiting Saturabia, there foreign 935 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,360 Speaker 1: ministers making samements saying we're unable to increase the oil production. 936 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,839 Speaker 1: So that's out the window, and I start looking very 937 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,360 Speaker 1: closely thinking, Okay, what could conceivably even be the concession 938 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:55,680 Speaker 1: that they're getting out of this. The only thing I 939 00:47:55,719 --> 00:48:00,640 Speaker 1: could find was permission for Israeli commercial flights to fly 940 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,279 Speaker 1: over Saudi Arabia. That's it. That's the only thing that 941 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,600 Speaker 1: I could find. And why is that in the United 942 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,120 Speaker 1: States interest? Like, I don't think that's a concession that 943 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,319 Speaker 1: the US strident. Yeah, I mean, like it's not like 944 00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,439 Speaker 1: we're not getting anything out of this, and we're We're 945 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,360 Speaker 1: not an agent for a third country to go promote 946 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,359 Speaker 1: their interests. Like I think one would expect that the 947 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,760 Speaker 1: president of the United States will put the US interests first. 948 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,600 Speaker 1: And we've been asking the same question. Like we have 949 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:39,720 Speaker 1: our you know, moral arguments and ethical arguments about why, 950 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,800 Speaker 1: as the organization that was founded by the late Jamarca Shugi, 951 00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,480 Speaker 1: why President Biden should not engage with MBS or with 952 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,760 Speaker 1: the Saudi government. But we also have the real politic 953 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,720 Speaker 1: argument of what are you getting out of this relationship. 954 00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:55,760 Speaker 1: That's what struck me in researching all this is initially 955 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,360 Speaker 1: I thought it was something you know, I thought it 956 00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,399 Speaker 1: was primarily human rights thing, but that's absolutely not true. Yeah, 957 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,600 Speaker 1: at first glance, you could see, okay, a very oil 958 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:07,880 Speaker 1: rich dictatorship. You know, the kind of supposition here is okay, well, 959 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:09,480 Speaker 1: you've got to make deals with them in order to 960 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,759 Speaker 1: get that oil. But oil production has been you know, 961 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,000 Speaker 1: not sufficient to the needs, particularly after the war with 962 00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,040 Speaker 1: Russia in which they've been sanctioned in their oil is 963 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,719 Speaker 1: taken off the market. Gas prices are you know, through 964 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,520 Speaker 1: the roof right now, and that's having very serious effects, 965 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,080 Speaker 1: not just with respect of filling up your car, but 966 00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,759 Speaker 1: oil is factored into everything that we buy because that 967 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,200 Speaker 1: determines the price of international shipping. That's how things are manufactured. 968 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,040 Speaker 1: So you know, politically, this is putting Biden a very 969 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,800 Speaker 1: difficult position. I would imagine that that factors into his 970 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:43,920 Speaker 1: low approval rating. And again, how none of that has changed. 971 00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,040 Speaker 1: Those rates of production haven't changed. There hasn't been any plans. 972 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:48,960 Speaker 1: I mean, Saudi hasn't made any statement saying we're going 973 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,439 Speaker 1: to try to ramp up production in the medium term. 974 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:55,680 Speaker 1: Even there doesn't seem so so that sort of assumption that, oh, yeah, 975 00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 1: you got to look the other way oil, I just 976 00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,919 Speaker 1: haven't seen that to bear any to carry any water, 977 00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,799 Speaker 1: that's right. And I mean there is a point that 978 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,640 Speaker 1: you touched on earlier regarding US citizens in the region. 979 00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,040 Speaker 1: There are yeah, talk about that a bit in the 980 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,880 Speaker 1: US prisoners in Saudi jails did was he able to 981 00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:14,560 Speaker 1: what did Briden? Did Biden bring that up or was 982 00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:16,760 Speaker 1: he able to get there? He did not. And before 983 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:22,960 Speaker 1: his visit there were multiple letters sent by family members 984 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:28,879 Speaker 1: and human rights organizations asking the Biden administration to bring 985 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 1: up issues pertaining to US citizens. And you know, this 986 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:36,239 Speaker 1: is like a no brainer. You would think that US 987 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,839 Speaker 1: citizen or government, our government will actually say something about them. 988 00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:43,560 Speaker 1: So in Israel, there was a recent killing of Palsinian 989 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,160 Speaker 1: American journalists, very famous journalists, very famous n Serina Akla. 990 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,279 Speaker 1: She was killed by Israel with absolutely no accountability. There 991 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,640 Speaker 1: were calls for the president to at least mention her 992 00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,520 Speaker 1: name or meet with her family while he's there. Nothing, 993 00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:01,160 Speaker 1: not a single even like empty gesture of calling for 994 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:07,160 Speaker 1: accountability for US citizens or requesting an investigation into how 995 00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,239 Speaker 1: US weapons might have contributed to the Spilish. Nothing. That's 996 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:12,440 Speaker 1: the thing I want to talk about is how much 997 00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,560 Speaker 1: leverage we have of our country. That's because people love 998 00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,879 Speaker 1: to say things like, you know, we're you know, they've 999 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:18,560 Speaker 1: got us over a barrel. What can we do with it? Well, 1000 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 1: they don't have much in the way of an indigenous military. 1001 00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,240 Speaker 1: They depend on us for not just the weapons, systems, 1002 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,480 Speaker 1: but the maintenance of those systems. People don't understand how 1003 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:30,400 Speaker 1: complex having an F sixteen and certain you know, changing parts, 1004 00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:32,440 Speaker 1: teaching them how to use software, things like that. But 1005 00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:34,600 Speaker 1: we have so much leverage over our country. We do. 1006 00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:36,759 Speaker 1: And that's also like one of the questions that is 1007 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,160 Speaker 1: put out there as a deflection point. You know, what 1008 00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:44,319 Speaker 1: about Iran? What about Hamas? What about is that? You know, 1009 00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:49,120 Speaker 1: we don't sell Iran hundreds of weapons it's an enemy. Yeah, 1010 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:51,960 Speaker 1: we don't give you know, Hamas billions of dollars of 1011 00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,440 Speaker 1: military A debried, like we have actual leverage over Israel 1012 00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,720 Speaker 1: and so the Abbe and the UAE and Egypt because 1013 00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:01,399 Speaker 1: we give them billions of dollars of tax dollars money 1014 00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:05,280 Speaker 1: every year. We sell them hundreds of billions of dollars weapons. 1015 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,759 Speaker 1: And you were saying, it's not like weapons are not 1016 00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,120 Speaker 1: like vegetables. It's not like they can just go buy 1017 00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:14,799 Speaker 1: a Chinese jets fight. The US is the best at 1018 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,440 Speaker 1: this stuff, and not totally that like once you have 1019 00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,239 Speaker 1: a system, you're stuck with it, like you need like 1020 00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:20,680 Speaker 1: a generation to switch. I was talking to an intelligence 1021 00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:22,359 Speaker 1: officer and I asked him, I said, you know, all 1022 00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,319 Speaker 1: this fear mongering that you see from the think tanks 1023 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:26,080 Speaker 1: that I was mentioning before saying, Oh, if we don't 1024 00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:27,920 Speaker 1: give the Scidage whatever we want, who knows, maybe they 1025 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:29,400 Speaker 1: could turn to the Chinese, or we'll drive them the 1026 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,239 Speaker 1: arms of directions. I asked this guy, who knows a 1027 00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:33,239 Speaker 1: lot about weapons systems and had worked in the region 1028 00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:34,680 Speaker 1: for number of years. I said, how long would it 1029 00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,120 Speaker 1: take to switch systems? And he said, there's actually been 1030 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:39,759 Speaker 1: intelligence assessments on this which hold that it would take 1031 00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:43,200 Speaker 1: at least a decade. And it's in a regime like that, 1032 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:48,640 Speaker 1: deeply unpopular, corrupt, you know, hated by many in the region, illegitimate, 1033 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:52,239 Speaker 1: it's a literal monarchy. I have to say that they're 1034 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:56,360 Speaker 1: probably going to be concerned about having the military equipment 1035 00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:57,960 Speaker 1: that they need to be able to stay in power 1036 00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,720 Speaker 1: because they're not in power by the consent to the governed. 1037 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:02,600 Speaker 1: It's not like they're popular, that's right. So that your 1038 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,040 Speaker 1: point stands that we do have as a country, we 1039 00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:09,080 Speaker 1: have huge amounts of leverage over these countries and we're 1040 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:13,480 Speaker 1: not using it. So the other demand from families of 1041 00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:18,920 Speaker 1: US citizens was to speak up about US citizens who 1042 00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:23,520 Speaker 1: are imprisoned in the UAE and in Zudebia. Not a 1043 00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:28,000 Speaker 1: single world not a meeting with civil society organizations, not 1044 00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:32,120 Speaker 1: a demand, not even an empty gesture regarding these kind 1045 00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,480 Speaker 1: of issues, and like, honestly, like even regardless of the 1046 00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:39,440 Speaker 1: human rights violations and that angle, using that as an 1047 00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:44,719 Speaker 1: important political pressure point would have been more productive for 1048 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:46,520 Speaker 1: the president. So that's why I was saying, it's the 1049 00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,759 Speaker 1: wars of both worlds because he didn't do the right 1050 00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:50,960 Speaker 1: things for the right reasons, but he didn't do the 1051 00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:55,680 Speaker 1: right things for the wrong It's crazy because when you 1052 00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:57,160 Speaker 1: look at the kind of leverage that we have in 1053 00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,680 Speaker 1: the form of the armed support that we saw them 1054 00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:02,480 Speaker 1: this is, and the hundreds of billions, like huge sums 1055 00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,319 Speaker 1: of money. What's wonderful about that is, unlike with our 1056 00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:07,480 Speaker 1: other adversaries, like around our China, we don't have to 1057 00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:08,799 Speaker 1: risk going to war with them. All you have to 1058 00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:10,719 Speaker 1: do is it's you don't even really have to do 1059 00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,520 Speaker 1: something in a positive sense. You usually have to stop 1060 00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:16,000 Speaker 1: that flow, just suspend it for a little while, and 1061 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:17,799 Speaker 1: that would send a clear message. The US has done 1062 00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:21,480 Speaker 1: that to countries in the past. And what's wonderful about 1063 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:23,759 Speaker 1: that is it's such a conservative solution that doesn't put 1064 00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,080 Speaker 1: us on the hook for you know, open ended wars 1065 00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,800 Speaker 1: or occupations. Just stop even just some of the support, 1066 00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:31,479 Speaker 1: and that would send a clear message to the people 1067 00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:35,120 Speaker 1: in Riata. I think, yeah, that's one hundred and like 1068 00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,640 Speaker 1: I think many of all organizations in DC have been 1069 00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,560 Speaker 1: saying the same, which is you don't have to use 1070 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:45,799 Speaker 1: a slug cham or policy with aid, like you can 1071 00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,560 Speaker 1: suspend parts of aid right to Egypt or to Israel, 1072 00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,920 Speaker 1: or make some conditions even just we're not even getting 1073 00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,640 Speaker 1: this symbolic not even the symbolic even like not even 1074 00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,399 Speaker 1: like one percent, right, you know, like like not even 1075 00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:02,200 Speaker 1: like a symbolic message that we do have control over 1076 00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,359 Speaker 1: over resources, we do have control over over it, not 1077 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:09,000 Speaker 1: even symbolically. So we're stuck in this complete blank check 1078 00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:14,480 Speaker 1: autopilot policies, and countries like Israel or so the Arabia, 1079 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,400 Speaker 1: they don't even worry about the flow of arms and 1080 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,560 Speaker 1: the floor of weapons because it's just on autopilot. Right, 1081 00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:23,080 Speaker 1: So can you speak to you're a modest guy. You 1082 00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,279 Speaker 1: won't admit this, but you're very well connected on the 1083 00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,360 Speaker 1: Hill and in Washington. You know a lot of officials. 1084 00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:29,480 Speaker 1: Do you have a sense of why is this? Because 1085 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:32,760 Speaker 1: we're looking at it and is it just the strength 1086 00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:36,319 Speaker 1: of these you know, foreign lobby groups and the think 1087 00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:39,440 Speaker 1: tanks and everything, because there has to be something Biden 1088 00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:41,919 Speaker 1: is getting out of this, even just for himself. Why 1089 00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:43,960 Speaker 1: do you think this processed the state of affairs? I mean, 1090 00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,680 Speaker 1: I don't think there is one one answer to that question. 1091 00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,480 Speaker 1: It's a very complex question. It's it's a question. The 1092 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:55,920 Speaker 1: question is why is their status quo force in Washington, DC, 1093 00:55:56,320 --> 00:56:00,440 Speaker 1: whether it's Biden or Trump or Obama or Bush. Like 1094 00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:03,719 Speaker 1: we saw some of these policies be identical. Yeah, and 1095 00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,080 Speaker 1: whatever the presidents said before they came to office, during 1096 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:09,960 Speaker 1: or after a sure mind every when Biden said that 1097 00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,040 Speaker 1: he was going to make out of Arabia quote pariah, 1098 00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:13,600 Speaker 1: that's right, which is a word that doesn't leave a 1099 00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:17,320 Speaker 1: lot of room for interpretations. That's pretty it's pretty strong language, 1100 00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:19,560 Speaker 1: you know. And then you end up looking at the 1101 00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:22,040 Speaker 1: policy and it's remarkably similar to you know, not just 1102 00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,360 Speaker 1: Trump and every predecessor there's been. Yeah, I mean, I 1103 00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:26,680 Speaker 1: mean like it's so incident, like an all the above 1104 00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:30,040 Speaker 1: approach for keeping the status school in DC. You have 1105 00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:34,520 Speaker 1: very powerful lobbyists for the like the you know, military 1106 00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:39,319 Speaker 1: industrial complex, special interests, so the Arabia's pumps, you know, 1107 00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:43,399 Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars in in law beying for 1108 00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:47,480 Speaker 1: every administration that are especially interest groups in DC like 1109 00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:51,319 Speaker 1: that are like election politics and you know, congression and 1110 00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,360 Speaker 1: corruption and it all works together, you know. Like like 1111 00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:58,080 Speaker 1: one example that they always give to outsiders of DC 1112 00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:01,839 Speaker 1: just to explain how complicated is to change the status quo, 1113 00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:07,960 Speaker 1: is that there's this very small airplane like eighten that 1114 00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:10,640 Speaker 1: the Pentagon wanted to cut out. So the Pentagon itself, 1115 00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:13,200 Speaker 1: the ded said we don't really need this airplane anymore. 1116 00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,840 Speaker 1: And Congress said, if the Pentagon doesn't need it, let's 1117 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:21,320 Speaker 1: cut it out. Then the military industrial complex pushes so 1118 00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:24,040 Speaker 1: hard this airplane, which is as big as a bus, 1119 00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:28,560 Speaker 1: it's very very small. It's manufactured in all fifty states 1120 00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,880 Speaker 1: there are, so one state makes the door, one state 1121 00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:34,640 Speaker 1: makes the wheel, one state makes the engine. So you 1122 00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:39,320 Speaker 1: get phone calls from all fifty states to Senator offices 1123 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,480 Speaker 1: freaking out about jobs, freaking out about like you change 1124 00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:46,720 Speaker 1: of policies, and then you keep an airplane that the 1125 00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:49,960 Speaker 1: Pentagon doesn't need that Congress doesn't want to push that 1126 00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:53,280 Speaker 1: we're paying for. So this is like a very tiny 1127 00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:56,520 Speaker 1: example that actually like no one is going out there 1128 00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:58,960 Speaker 1: fighting against the A ten. You know, the Pentagon doesn't 1129 00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:02,880 Speaker 1: need it, right, It's just like a of this system 1130 00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:04,400 Speaker 1: that they've set up in the Saturdays have a very 1131 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:09,200 Speaker 1: aggressive imagine that comes what's for sod like having money, 1132 00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:12,600 Speaker 1: have like amazing amounts of influence on poet and d see, 1133 00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:16,400 Speaker 1: like imagine the poet that they can put the push 1134 00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:19,040 Speaker 1: to on Congress and on the administration in the state 1135 00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:21,960 Speaker 1: Department to keep the status school. It's it's really very 1136 00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,520 Speaker 1: very difficult to change. Okay, well, right, I really want 1137 00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:26,320 Speaker 1: to thank you for joining us, and thanks to our 1138 00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,959 Speaker 1: viewers for joining us for the Breaking Points Intercept edition. 1139 00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:35,920 Speaker 1: All right, y'all. So Nathan J. Robinson of Current Affairs 1140 00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:41,440 Speaker 1: magazine wrote an article, and it's about John Fetterman. Now, 1141 00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:45,800 Speaker 1: John Fetterman is running against doctor oz He Uh. It's 1142 00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:51,200 Speaker 1: for the US Senate seat in Pennsylvania. And he's been 1143 00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:55,480 Speaker 1: very effective, let's say. And my evidence for that is 1144 00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:58,960 Speaker 1: he's up in all the polls. Now, that's impressive, especially 1145 00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:03,440 Speaker 1: because there is a a wave Republican election that is 1146 00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:07,720 Speaker 1: supposed to happen. You know, the conventional wisdom is like, well, 1147 00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:10,200 Speaker 1: whenever the White House, whenever the White House is won 1148 00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,880 Speaker 1: by one party, in the next midterm election, the other 1149 00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:17,320 Speaker 1: party usually has a wave. And recent history that's accurate. Now, 1150 00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,600 Speaker 1: I don't think it's a law of nature. I don't 1151 00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,320 Speaker 1: think it is perfectly cyclical. I think if you govern effectively, 1152 00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:25,120 Speaker 1: then you can break that streak. But recently, since neither 1153 00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:27,920 Speaker 1: party really serves the will of the American people, that 1154 00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:31,800 Speaker 1: has happened. So Fetterman is one of the only Democrats 1155 00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:37,160 Speaker 1: who's up, and he's running a very interesting and different campaign. 1156 00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:41,080 Speaker 1: So Nathan J. Robinson is a leftist writer Current Affairs magazine, 1157 00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,560 Speaker 1: and here's what he says, John Fetterman should ditch the 1158 00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:50,040 Speaker 1: extremely online messaging. Okay, so let's read some of his 1159 00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:53,480 Speaker 1: argument before you know, I say anything on the topic. 1160 00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:56,360 Speaker 1: Relentlessly trolling doctor Oz on Twitter is funny, But we 1161 00:59:56,440 --> 01:00:00,200 Speaker 1: desperately need a campaign with a strong, clear progressive agenda. 1162 01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:02,640 Speaker 1: One of Bernie Sanders' best qualities is that he has 1163 01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,680 Speaker 1: laser focused on the issues that matter to most, that 1164 01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:08,600 Speaker 1: matter most to everyday people. You cannot get Bernie off topic. 1165 01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:11,720 Speaker 1: He does not want to talk about himself. He even 1166 01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:15,080 Speaker 1: resisted criticizing his opponents. Bernie is the most on message 1167 01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:17,680 Speaker 1: politician in American public life, hammering relentlessly on the need 1168 01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,440 Speaker 1: for adequate healthcare, tackling the climate catastrophe, and raising them 1169 01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,400 Speaker 1: in mum wage. Ben Burgess and I recently analyzed the 1170 01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:25,640 Speaker 1: debate that Bernie did with Lindsay Graham, in which Bernie 1171 01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:28,360 Speaker 1: cleaned Graham's clock in large part because Bernie focused on 1172 01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,240 Speaker 1: exposing how Republicans do not care about the needs of 1173 01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,920 Speaker 1: working people. So I broke that down as well. I 1174 01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:37,440 Speaker 1: broke that debate down as well. And I agree with 1175 01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:42,040 Speaker 1: their assessment that Bernie obliterated Lindsay Graham. And of course, 1176 01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:45,760 Speaker 1: obviously needless to say, I'm a huge Bernie supporter. This 1177 01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:48,240 Speaker 1: is an important source of Bernie's appeal. People get the 1178 01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:50,600 Speaker 1: sense that he is not in politics because he enjoys it, 1179 01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:52,760 Speaker 1: he does not seem to enjoy it, but because he 1180 01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:55,680 Speaker 1: is devoted to improving the lives of others. John Fetterman 1181 01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:58,040 Speaker 1: is the Democratic candidate for this year's Pennsylvania Senate election. 1182 01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:02,040 Speaker 1: He was a US Senate election in Pennsylvania. He was 1183 01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:04,680 Speaker 1: a Burney supporter and so Democratic centrist disliked him at first, 1184 01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:07,240 Speaker 1: but Fetterman trounced the boring centrist he ran against in 1185 01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:10,600 Speaker 1: the primary. Now that Fetterman is critical to Democrats retaining 1186 01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:13,400 Speaker 1: control of the Senate, the party is funneling money into 1187 01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:16,120 Speaker 1: his race. I like John Fetterman a lot, and I 1188 01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:18,760 Speaker 1: have high hopes for him. He speaks movingly about the 1189 01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:20,680 Speaker 1: work he did improving the economic health of down and 1190 01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:23,120 Speaker 1: out brad At Pennsylvania when he served as its mayor. 1191 01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:26,680 Speaker 1: Fetterman seems to genuinely care about his city. Pete Budaje Jos, 1192 01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:28,439 Speaker 1: on the other hand, seemed to very obviously be using 1193 01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,120 Speaker 1: his position as mayor as a springboard to higher office. 1194 01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:33,920 Speaker 1: Fetaman is currently recovering from a stroke and has had 1195 01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:37,320 Speaker 1: to campaign mostly online. He has certainly embraced the online 1196 01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:41,120 Speaker 1: aspect of campaigning, using Twitter to relentlessly troll his opponents, 1197 01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:44,760 Speaker 1: Liberty doctor Mehmet Oz. Most of Fetterman's barbs attempt to 1198 01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:47,000 Speaker 1: paint doctor Oz as a carpetbagger who had not spent 1199 01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:49,360 Speaker 1: much time in Pennsylvania before running for Senate there. A 1200 01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:52,200 Speaker 1: Fetterman ann shows images of doctor Oz's New Jersey mansion 1201 01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:54,240 Speaker 1: of a video of him kissing his star on the 1202 01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:57,600 Speaker 1: Hollywood Walk of Fame and says he's not one of us. 1203 01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,240 Speaker 1: Fetterman has put a great deal of effort into pursuing 1204 01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:02,120 Speaker 1: his line of attack, going so far as to get 1205 01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:06,120 Speaker 1: Jersey Shores Snooky to record a message to doctor Oz. Previously, 1206 01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:09,400 Speaker 1: to troll Oz, Fetterman hired a plane to fly a 1207 01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,960 Speaker 1: banner over New Jersey welcoming Oz home. Is that what 1208 01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:17,000 Speaker 1: campaign dollars are going toward. Fetterman's latest stunt is starting 1209 01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:19,680 Speaker 1: a petition to get doctor Oz inducted into the New 1210 01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:23,680 Speaker 1: Jersey Hall of Fame. Fetterman's tactics have certainly attracted press coverage. 1211 01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,720 Speaker 1: The New York Times notes his towel snapping virtual campaign 1212 01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,480 Speaker 1: of sassy online memes, and The Daily Beasts ask could 1213 01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:33,160 Speaker 1: John Fetterman shit post his way to the Senate. I'll 1214 01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:35,880 Speaker 1: be honest, I think all of this is stupid and 1215 01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:39,400 Speaker 1: morally frivolous, and I wish John Fetterman would not do it. 1216 01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:41,800 Speaker 1: Even if it turns out that in twenty twenty two 1217 01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:43,880 Speaker 1: you can shit post your way to the Senate, you 1218 01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:47,240 Speaker 1: shouldn't a progressive Senate candidate should force a discussion on 1219 01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:50,160 Speaker 1: things that matter, not get the media talking about how 1220 01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:52,720 Speaker 1: sick his Twitter burns are. I also think Ftnerman is 1221 01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:56,280 Speaker 1: taking a big risk here by assuming that Pennsylvania voters 1222 01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:59,400 Speaker 1: can actually be influenced by memes. Deray McKesson found out 1223 01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,000 Speaker 1: the hard way that being big on Twitter doesn't translate 1224 01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:05,960 Speaker 1: into electoral success when he badly lost Baltimore's Democratic primary 1225 01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:10,840 Speaker 1: election for mayor. Okay, let's pause here. Here's the thing. 1226 01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:13,480 Speaker 1: Nathan Fetterman is up in all the polls right now. 1227 01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:18,400 Speaker 1: So is it possible Fetterman loses. Absolutely? In fact, I 1228 01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:21,720 Speaker 1: would put it sixty forty that Fetterman does lose. I 1229 01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:24,840 Speaker 1: think doctor Oz has a better chance in this election, 1230 01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:28,360 Speaker 1: namely because it appears to be a Republican wave election year. Now, 1231 01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:30,720 Speaker 1: having said that, Fetterman I think is putting up the 1232 01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:34,680 Speaker 1: best fight he possibly can. And I think it's a 1233 01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:39,840 Speaker 1: little glib to compare Fetterman to de Ray McKesson. As 1234 01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:42,600 Speaker 1: far as I know, McKesson has had no electoral success. 1235 01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,200 Speaker 1: John Fetterman has already had electoral success. Now, beyond that, 1236 01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:48,760 Speaker 1: the argument that this is just well, it's just memes, 1237 01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:52,800 Speaker 1: and it's just online trolling and shit posting. Don't agree, 1238 01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,720 Speaker 1: And here's the reason I don't agree. The heart of 1239 01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:59,680 Speaker 1: the message from John Fetterman is not just that doctor 1240 01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:02,439 Speaker 1: Oz is a carpetbagger, which is accurate. By the way, 1241 01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:04,840 Speaker 1: it's an accurate attack he is that he is from 1242 01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:07,800 Speaker 1: New Jersey, but it's also that he's an out of 1243 01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:10,720 Speaker 1: touch elitist who's not going to represent working people. The 1244 01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:13,360 Speaker 1: line of attack is not just hey, man, you're from 1245 01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:18,240 Speaker 1: New Jersey. It's you're from New Jersey, you are mega wealthy, 1246 01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:21,800 Speaker 1: you live in a mansion. You're out of touch, and 1247 01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:25,680 Speaker 1: I am a Pennsylvanian and I represent hard working Pennsylvanias. 1248 01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:30,720 Speaker 1: That's a line of attack to It's a mischaracterization to 1249 01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:35,160 Speaker 1: say it's just extremely online trolling. It's in part trolling, 1250 01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:38,600 Speaker 1: But at the heart of it is an accurate argument. 1251 01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:42,360 Speaker 1: And now, by the way, I've admitted this before. If 1252 01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:44,520 Speaker 1: I was advising John Fetterman, I wouldn't have said go 1253 01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:48,000 Speaker 1: with a carpetbagger argument. But now watching him do it 1254 01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:52,080 Speaker 1: and seeing how effective it is in terms of the results, 1255 01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:55,440 Speaker 1: I say, oh, that was actually a brilliant argument because 1256 01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:58,400 Speaker 1: it works. People in Pennsylvania regardless of their political affiliation, 1257 01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:02,600 Speaker 1: can understand an acknowledge the objective reality that doctor Oz 1258 01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:05,040 Speaker 1: is just trying to buy a Senate seat from there. 1259 01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:09,320 Speaker 1: He's not from there, he's out of state. And again 1260 01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:13,600 Speaker 1: he's elitist, he's ultra wealthy. He's not gonna represent the 1261 01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:16,080 Speaker 1: interest of working class people. And John Fetterman will do 1262 01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:20,240 Speaker 1: so much better than doctor Oz would. And so I don't. Look, 1263 01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:25,640 Speaker 1: there's this strain of lefties who are like anti fun, Like, okay, yeah, 1264 01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:27,520 Speaker 1: Fetterman could go up there and give a speech or 1265 01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:31,120 Speaker 1: you know, post a twenty thousand word essay as Nathan J. 1266 01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:34,480 Speaker 1: Robinson likes to do oftentimes, and do a dry dissertation 1267 01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:38,640 Speaker 1: on the marginal tax rates. That's not gonna work. That's 1268 01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:41,600 Speaker 1: not gonna work. Now. I'm not out here saying, hey, 1269 01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:44,920 Speaker 1: don't discuss policy shit. I think you should mostly focus 1270 01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:48,800 Speaker 1: on policy shit. But I also think if you can 1271 01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:53,040 Speaker 1: troll and meme and shit post and it's substantive as 1272 01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:56,000 Speaker 1: well and it works, well, that's a win all around. Look, 1273 01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:59,400 Speaker 1: I find it supremely ironic that he brings he compares 1274 01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:02,000 Speaker 1: Fetterman to Bernie Sanders, and it's like Fetterman should be 1275 01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:07,680 Speaker 1: more like Bernie Sanders. That's the implication. Bernie Sanders loss, dippy, 1276 01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:11,040 Speaker 1: so it's time to improve upon what Bernie did. Yes, 1277 01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:14,040 Speaker 1: focusing on policy is central and important and the main 1278 01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:16,480 Speaker 1: thing when you're talking about politics, because we want to 1279 01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:19,480 Speaker 1: improve people's lives. But in the process of doing that, 1280 01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:24,920 Speaker 1: you should be having fun. You should be attracting people. 1281 01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:27,560 Speaker 1: And turns out if you have fun and you joke 1282 01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:30,440 Speaker 1: around and you mean and you troll, it's attractive to people. 1283 01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:34,600 Speaker 1: Now that's not my opinion, Nathan, that's born out in 1284 01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:39,400 Speaker 1: the polls. Now, ultimately, John Fetterman might lose, okay, And 1285 01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:42,200 Speaker 1: at that point Nathan J. Robinson might turn around and say, see, 1286 01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:45,600 Speaker 1: it's because of all the trolling and the online shit posting. 1287 01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:50,440 Speaker 1: You know. I would look at that and say the 1288 01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:54,880 Speaker 1: national mood and the fact that it's a wave election 1289 01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:58,600 Speaker 1: doomed him, despite the fact that he ran a phenomenal campaign. 1290 01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:00,919 Speaker 1: That's how I would look at it. I just want 1291 01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:04,680 Speaker 1: lefties lighten up a little bit and have some fun. 1292 01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:07,560 Speaker 1: It's okay to have fun, it's okay to be relatable. 1293 01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:11,080 Speaker 1: What Fetterman is doing here is massively relatable, not just 1294 01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:12,680 Speaker 1: to the online left, because if it was just to 1295 01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:15,320 Speaker 1: the online left, he'd be down by twenty five points, 1296 01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:19,040 Speaker 1: and he's not and he's not Nathan, So it's just funny. 1297 01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:20,880 Speaker 1: You make this argument when he's up in the pulse, 1298 01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:23,200 Speaker 1: wait till he's down, and there might come a time 1299 01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:25,400 Speaker 1: when he's down again. It's a red wave election year. 1300 01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:28,800 Speaker 1: But he makes the argument now because he can't help himself. 1301 01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:33,000 Speaker 1: This reminds me of the article he wrote about Crystalline Sager. 1302 01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:37,520 Speaker 1: He's very, very critical and there are absolutely criticisms of Sager. 1303 01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:40,560 Speaker 1: I disagree with Sager. He's on the writer. I don't 1304 01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:42,760 Speaker 1: know now he might consider himself a enlightened interst or whatever. 1305 01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:45,040 Speaker 1: That's fine, but like you don't need to drag down 1306 01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:48,080 Speaker 1: Crystal to disagree with Sager, and he did that, and 1307 01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:52,040 Speaker 1: now we have an effective left campaign or relatively left campaign, 1308 01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:55,800 Speaker 1: and Nathan J. Robinson is I don't like this. You 1309 01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:58,240 Speaker 1: should do dry dissertations where you talk about marginal tax 1310 01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:02,960 Speaker 1: rates and bore people. How can you look at something 1311 01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:07,240 Speaker 1: that's working and that's fun and is still substantive at 1312 01:08:07,240 --> 01:08:08,800 Speaker 1: the heart of it, because it's not just that he's 1313 01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:11,520 Speaker 1: a carpetbagger at doctor Ozz. It's also that he's elitist 1314 01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:13,120 Speaker 1: and out of touch and not representing working people, and 1315 01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:15,560 Speaker 1: you disagree with it. I don't get it. I don't 1316 01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:19,599 Speaker 1: get it. One of the core problems with Fetterman's approach 1317 01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:21,599 Speaker 1: is that it assumes voters care more about whether doctor 1318 01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:23,320 Speaker 1: Oz is from New Jersey than they do about minimum 1319 01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:26,040 Speaker 1: wage grocery. Now, that's not fair. That is not fair. 1320 01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,120 Speaker 1: It's not like Fetterman doesn't talk about policy. He of 1321 01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:33,599 Speaker 1: course talks about policy, but he's also charismatic and entertaining 1322 01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:38,519 Speaker 1: and entertaining. And you're focusing on the charisma and the 1323 01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:41,080 Speaker 1: entertaining stuff and be smirching it while pretending like he's 1324 01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:44,120 Speaker 1: not talking about policy. Grocery prices, health care costs, are 1325 01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:46,400 Speaker 1: gun violence. Personally, I don't actually think the carpetbagger point 1326 01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:48,720 Speaker 1: is that compelling. Well, look here's the thing, Nathan, I 1327 01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,320 Speaker 1: agree with you, which is why I said. If I 1328 01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:53,160 Speaker 1: was running Fetterman's campaign, I tell him don't go with 1329 01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:56,000 Speaker 1: the carpetbager thing. It's not that substantive. But now having 1330 01:08:56,040 --> 01:08:58,640 Speaker 1: watched him do it and looking at the results, I 1331 01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:03,719 Speaker 1: was wrong. I was wrong. Fetterman was right. It works 1332 01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:07,240 Speaker 1: it works because it turns out sometimes people are a 1333 01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:11,400 Speaker 1: little silly and they think, like, well, if you're from 1334 01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:14,040 Speaker 1: out of state, you can't possibly care about the people 1335 01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:17,840 Speaker 1: in state, or you know, somehow your ideas are less 1336 01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:20,040 Speaker 1: relevant now and your policies are less relevant now because 1337 01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:23,360 Speaker 1: you're not one of us. I think that's sort of 1338 01:09:23,360 --> 01:09:28,000 Speaker 1: weak too, but people don't think it's weak. People respond 1339 01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:31,360 Speaker 1: to it. There's something visceral and innate about it. You know, 1340 01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:34,439 Speaker 1: there's something compelling about that of like I'm one of you, 1341 01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:38,840 Speaker 1: he's not. Because if a candidate had good politics but 1342 01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:40,160 Speaker 1: was from out of state, I'd vote for them in 1343 01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:42,000 Speaker 1: a heartbeat over someone who had terrible politics but deep 1344 01:09:42,040 --> 01:09:43,960 Speaker 1: local roots. And that's why, Nathan, that's why I agree 1345 01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:46,439 Speaker 1: with you on that point. That's why I agree with 1346 01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:49,800 Speaker 1: you that it's not a persuasive argument to me. But 1347 01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:52,240 Speaker 1: there are times when I feel something and most people 1348 01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:54,240 Speaker 1: don't agree with me, and the same shit is true 1349 01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:56,200 Speaker 1: of you. Because yeah, so if I saw a candidate, 1350 01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:59,639 Speaker 1: if there was a left candidate who I loved who 1351 01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:03,000 Speaker 1: was from out of state, I vote for them over 1352 01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:06,360 Speaker 1: a New Yorker who was in state New York who 1353 01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:08,320 Speaker 1: had bad politics or worse politics, but was in state. 1354 01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:10,520 Speaker 1: So I agree with you on the substance of that criticism. 1355 01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:14,640 Speaker 1: But it's also possible for something to not appeal to 1356 01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:16,880 Speaker 1: me and Nathan J. Robinson, that appeals to the average voter, 1357 01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:20,360 Speaker 1: and that thing works, And that's what's happening. Fetterman is 1358 01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:22,960 Speaker 1: appealing to an emotional sense of Pennsylvania pride in the 1359 01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:26,120 Speaker 1: state's suspicion of Jersey Heights. Oh God, Nathan, It's fair 1360 01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:28,880 Speaker 1: to say you want candidates who actually know your state well, 1361 01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:30,559 Speaker 1: and that there is an arrogance to rich people who 1362 01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:33,000 Speaker 1: simply assume they can represent any state they like. Witnessed 1363 01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:35,240 Speaker 1: Nick Christov's entitled delusion that he could run for governor 1364 01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:37,880 Speaker 1: of Oregon because he was an important man who'd enjoyed 1365 01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:40,160 Speaker 1: the job. But ultimately, what is wrong with doctor Oz 1366 01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:44,080 Speaker 1: is horrible reactionary politics. Yes, and that is also being highlighted. 1367 01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:48,960 Speaker 1: That's also being highlighted by Fetterman. Ozza's campaign platform includes 1368 01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:52,160 Speaker 1: responding to the global Chinese threat, Jesus being a dear 1369 01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:56,679 Speaker 1: allied Israel, cracking down on unauthorized immigrants, escalating fossil fuel production, 1370 01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:59,960 Speaker 1: pushing back on cancel cultures, topping abortion, preventing gun control, 1371 01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:02,200 Speaker 1: giving control of elections to the states, and giving police 1372 01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:05,040 Speaker 1: a powerful voice in Washington. He's running as a hard 1373 01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:07,280 Speaker 1: right Republican and needs to be kept out of the 1374 01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:09,280 Speaker 1: Senate because of what he will do to the country. 1375 01:11:09,479 --> 01:11:13,160 Speaker 1: Fetterman may made good ads a few months back about unions, climate, Eelice, Health, 1376 01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:17,880 Speaker 1: Kerman and Waite. Wait, who, you're destroying your own argument here, Nathan, 1377 01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:21,880 Speaker 1: you are You're saying, well, now, look, Fetterman has been substance, 1378 01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:24,920 Speaker 1: So then why you're writing this article. Why I writing 1379 01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:27,960 Speaker 1: this article. It's like when he wrote the thing about uh, 1380 01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:30,240 Speaker 1: crystalin Soager. I was like, now, I like Crystal. But 1381 01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:32,280 Speaker 1: then you go on and say, like, here's all the 1382 01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:35,800 Speaker 1: reasons why you shouldn't be sitting next to this guy. 1383 01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:37,120 Speaker 1: I don't know what you're doing, man, I don't know. 1384 01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:40,400 Speaker 1: Sh Look, it's a tough line to walk, right And 1385 01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:42,040 Speaker 1: We've talked about this a number of times on the show, 1386 01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:44,120 Speaker 1: and I've talked about it in interviews. When you're on 1387 01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:47,080 Speaker 1: the left, part of you wants to be like I 1388 01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:49,439 Speaker 1: am the truth teller, and I'm gonna keep it real 1389 01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:53,120 Speaker 1: to everybody. People who are not in my camp, people 1390 01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:55,200 Speaker 1: who are in my camp, people who are my closest allies. 1391 01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:56,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna keep it real and I'm gonna call people 1392 01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:58,320 Speaker 1: out when they're wrong, and I'm gonna be the sole 1393 01:11:58,439 --> 01:12:01,160 Speaker 1: voice of reason. That's one instinct people have. The other 1394 01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:04,559 Speaker 1: instinct people have is we need to have solidarity, which 1395 01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:06,400 Speaker 1: kind of flies at odds and it flies in the 1396 01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:08,759 Speaker 1: face of the idea of like I'm gonna call everybody 1397 01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:12,280 Speaker 1: and everything out, because solidarity is you sort of let 1398 01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:14,720 Speaker 1: bygones be bygones. Where there's minor disagreements, sweep it under 1399 01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:16,360 Speaker 1: the rug, no big deal, and you move forward together. 1400 01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:21,000 Speaker 1: Nathan J. Robinson has clearly fallen on the side of no, 1401 01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:24,639 Speaker 1: I'm going to be the one true voice of reason, 1402 01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:29,479 Speaker 1: and I will critique people other leftists or nominal leftists, 1403 01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:33,880 Speaker 1: even in an instance where it's strategically dumb, like why 1404 01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:37,640 Speaker 1: would you not write an article talking about the effectiveness 1405 01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:41,040 Speaker 1: of Fetterman's campaign and how other leftists should copy it 1406 01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:45,479 Speaker 1: because it is empirically objectively working. If you have the 1407 01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:48,080 Speaker 1: right ideas, if you have the right policy believes and 1408 01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:51,040 Speaker 1: you can marry that with like a fun edginess that 1409 01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:54,920 Speaker 1: appeals to people, why would you not support that. It's unbelievable. Anyway, 1410 01:12:56,080 --> 01:12:59,800 Speaker 1: Federman made a few good ads a few months back, 1411 01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:02,439 Speaker 1: Union's Climate's healthcareman on wage, but now I keep seeing 1412 01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:05,280 Speaker 1: headlines about his memes controlling. Most of this is focused 1413 01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:07,320 Speaker 1: on Oz's residency rather than this scary agenda or his 1414 01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:09,479 Speaker 1: background as a snake oil salesman. In fact, the far 1415 01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:11,479 Speaker 1: more devastating criticism of doctor Oz is that he is 1416 01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:15,880 Speaker 1: a quack who got rich pedaling false hope to sick people. Yeah, 1417 01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:20,120 Speaker 1: that's one of them. And uh, but what Federman is 1418 01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:24,000 Speaker 1: doright now is working, so he can add this to 1419 01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:26,120 Speaker 1: the repertoire. But I would definitely not say stop what 1420 01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:28,719 Speaker 1: you're doing, because what he's doing is working. You're saying, 1421 01:13:28,760 --> 01:13:30,400 Speaker 1: stop what you're doing here and focus on this thing 1422 01:13:30,439 --> 01:13:31,880 Speaker 1: that I just made up. And I will pretend like 1423 01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:33,200 Speaker 1: I know that this thing is going to land even 1424 01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:35,800 Speaker 1: better than what you're doing now, Nathan, you don't know, 1425 01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:39,000 Speaker 1: you don't know, give credit worse due the proof is 1426 01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:43,040 Speaker 1: in the pudding. There is at least one well made 1427 01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:45,800 Speaker 1: anti Oz ad that hits this theme hard. So you're 1428 01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:48,760 Speaker 1: saying he did that, I can't. I can't. Although it 1429 01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:52,120 Speaker 1: is also going after him for illegally employing undocumented workers. 1430 01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:56,479 Speaker 1: Hippocraty of course, but not terribly compelling. Hmm, that's gonna 1431 01:13:56,479 --> 01:14:01,479 Speaker 1: be compelling to Pennsylvania voters and again to number show it, 1432 01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:04,040 Speaker 1: and it doesn't emphasize enough the harm caused by his 1433 01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:09,120 Speaker 1: prescription of useless miracle cures. Look, Nathan, I like Nathan. 1434 01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:11,920 Speaker 1: I got nothing against Nathan. Him and I, in terms 1435 01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:16,360 Speaker 1: of our politics, were probably ninety percent in agreement. But man, 1436 01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:22,400 Speaker 1: he's a micromanager. He's a micromanager. He's trying to micromanage 1437 01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:26,400 Speaker 1: this campaign into oblivion. Now there are legitimate criticisms of 1438 01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:32,360 Speaker 1: Fetterman that his extraordinarily successful and cool campaign is not working. 1439 01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:36,439 Speaker 1: Is not one of them, because it is working. As 1440 01:14:36,479 --> 01:14:39,519 Speaker 1: I say, maybe John Fetterman's means about doctor O's residency 1441 01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:41,719 Speaker 1: will be compelling to Pennsylvania voters. He's leading the polls 1442 01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:44,600 Speaker 1: at the moment. Why are you writing this article? But 1443 01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:46,280 Speaker 1: Democrats who want voters to come out for them really 1444 01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:50,080 Speaker 1: ought to emphasize their agenda rather than just mocking their opponent. Again, 1445 01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:52,920 Speaker 1: I don't know why he's We're gonna, we're gonna stop 1446 01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:56,880 Speaker 1: reading this. Now, you're setting up a false dichotomy. This 1447 01:14:56,960 --> 01:15:00,320 Speaker 1: is a massive false dichotomy. You can do both. That's 1448 01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:02,280 Speaker 1: what I try to do on this show. I talk 1449 01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:05,360 Speaker 1: about the issues. I talk about the policies. I talk 1450 01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:07,639 Speaker 1: about the things that I think would help fix the country. 1451 01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:09,639 Speaker 1: But we also laugh and joke and have a good time, 1452 01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:11,519 Speaker 1: and we're silly and we're stupid, and we're funny and 1453 01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:13,519 Speaker 1: we're edgy, and we just try to have fun with it. 1454 01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:17,840 Speaker 1: Nathan wants to like get rid of the silly, fun edgy, 1455 01:15:18,479 --> 01:15:21,320 Speaker 1: you know, that side of it, and just just be 1456 01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:25,280 Speaker 1: serious and just talk about the agenda. Again. I love Bernie, 1457 01:15:26,160 --> 01:15:28,400 Speaker 1: and in twenty sixteen, I think it was basically stolen 1458 01:15:28,439 --> 01:15:30,720 Speaker 1: from him, and the wikileak's emails stort to prove that right. 1459 01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:35,120 Speaker 1: But in twenty twenty, Homeboy lost. He lost, and he 1460 01:15:35,240 --> 01:15:39,920 Speaker 1: had he made a number of mistakes. And instead of 1461 01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:41,800 Speaker 1: looking at that Bernie campaign and saying, well, how do 1462 01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:43,760 Speaker 1: we improve upon it, Nathan J. Robbinson's like, no, that's 1463 01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:45,759 Speaker 1: the only way to run, because I Nathan J. Robinson 1464 01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:49,000 Speaker 1: say so. But if you see something that is in 1465 01:15:49,080 --> 01:15:53,960 Speaker 1: the same spirit, but it's fun and edgy and online, 1466 01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:56,600 Speaker 1: et cetera, and it's working, why can't you just be like, 1467 01:15:56,720 --> 01:16:01,200 Speaker 1: oh cool, I said, we'd supperate and I'll just give 1468 01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:02,439 Speaker 1: a little more. What will you do in the Senate. 1469 01:16:02,439 --> 01:16:04,320 Speaker 1: I want to see progressive candidates get beyond the economic 1470 01:16:04,360 --> 01:16:06,120 Speaker 1: Bill of Rights. I'd love that. I want them to 1471 01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:08,479 Speaker 1: show that they're not going to be do nothing democrats 1472 01:16:08,479 --> 01:16:10,559 Speaker 1: who think their job is finished when they beat the Republican. 1473 01:16:10,880 --> 01:16:12,760 Speaker 1: It worries me that a Fetterman ad that popped up 1474 01:16:12,760 --> 01:16:14,519 Speaker 1: for me on YouTube was all about how I should 1475 01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:17,200 Speaker 1: donate to help flip the seat blue, not about what 1476 01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:20,320 Speaker 1: John Fetterman would actually do as a senator. Issues went unmentioned. 1477 01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:23,599 Speaker 1: But he hasn't not talked about issues, Nathan. Look are 1478 01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:26,320 Speaker 1: the criticisms of Fetterman absolutely The Vanguard guy's pointed out 1479 01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:29,120 Speaker 1: he's terrible on Israel. Criticize them all day long about that, 1480 01:16:29,120 --> 01:16:33,519 Speaker 1: and I'd be agreeing with you, Nathan J. Robinson. But 1481 01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:38,840 Speaker 1: this ain't it. This ain't it. The best criticism of 1482 01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:42,679 Speaker 1: Fetterman that I can think of is it was very 1483 01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:48,320 Speaker 1: suspicious to me that the Democratic establishment laid down their 1484 01:16:48,320 --> 01:16:52,040 Speaker 1: weapons against Fetterman. So Fetterman beat who was a Connor 1485 01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:56,920 Speaker 1: Lamb some way worse centrist and I guess Fetterman met 1486 01:16:56,960 --> 01:16:59,559 Speaker 1: with the Democratic establishment and assured them in one way 1487 01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:01,920 Speaker 1: or another, you ain't got none to worry about. I'm 1488 01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:06,240 Speaker 1: with you. That concerns me more than his effective campaign 1489 01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:11,280 Speaker 1: that's working. That concerns me more so. And in all seriousness, 1490 01:17:11,320 --> 01:17:13,240 Speaker 1: if Fetterman wins, which is a question mark, we don't 1491 01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:15,479 Speaker 1: know if he's gonna win, what I would fear is, yes, 1492 01:17:15,479 --> 01:17:20,080 Speaker 1: he gets to the Senate and he he becomes a 1493 01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:23,960 Speaker 1: very milk toast Democrat. You know, he's not in the 1494 01:17:24,080 --> 01:17:26,800 Speaker 1: vein of a Bernie Sanders, and he's more in the 1495 01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:30,280 Speaker 1: vein of I don't know. I don't want to say 1496 01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:32,920 Speaker 1: a Chuck Schumert. That's really bad. But maybe he is right. 1497 01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:34,720 Speaker 1: That's what worries me about him, and there are some 1498 01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:37,719 Speaker 1: signs that maybe that'll happen. But as of this moment 1499 01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:40,719 Speaker 1: right now, the heart of the criticism from Nathan against 1500 01:17:40,960 --> 01:17:45,400 Speaker 1: Fetterman is stop your extremely online trolling. I don't like that, 1501 01:17:45,439 --> 01:17:48,240 Speaker 1: I don't like your campaign, and that that's just not 1502 01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:51,559 Speaker 1: good criticism because it's possible he ends up like Bernie. 1503 01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:54,040 Speaker 1: Supported Bernie, right, and if he ends up like Bernie 1504 01:17:54,120 --> 01:17:56,439 Speaker 1: and he got the power by being edgy and online 1505 01:17:56,439 --> 01:17:58,920 Speaker 1: controlling while also talking about issues. That's a win and 1506 01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:01,400 Speaker 1: that's something we should in the future with other left 1507 01:18:01,400 --> 01:18:05,559 Speaker 1: candidates not be smirching, poo poo and put down. So anyway, 1508 01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:08,559 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna keep going here with this article, but 1509 01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:09,960 Speaker 1: you guys get the gist of it. It's not even 1510 01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:11,720 Speaker 1: that much longer. You guys get the gist of it. 1511 01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:19,720 Speaker 1: Immature mudslinging. He should stop, ironically, and there's a good 1512 01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:23,799 Speaker 1: note to end this on. I sincerely believe the immature 1513 01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:26,719 Speaker 1: mud slinging is coming from Nathan J. Robinson against Ftterman. 1514 01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:30,640 Speaker 1: That's what I think. Again, you want to criticize him 1515 01:18:30,680 --> 01:18:33,599 Speaker 1: on policy, I'm with you. In fact, I'm certain that 1516 01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:38,719 Speaker 1: every policy criticism Nathan would have of Fetterman I almost 1517 01:18:38,760 --> 01:18:42,040 Speaker 1: certainly agree with with H. Robinson and not Fetterman. I 1518 01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:47,360 Speaker 1: think that's all fair game. But the micromanaging and nitpicking 1519 01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:51,400 Speaker 1: strategy and saying it's bad when it's objectively working, that's 1520 01:18:51,479 --> 01:18:55,040 Speaker 1: just dumb. So you're the immature mud slinger right now, Nathan, 1521 01:18:55,200 --> 01:18:58,439 Speaker 1: and you should stop. I sincerely believe you're better than this. 1522 01:18:58,560 --> 01:19:00,920 Speaker 1: While I was gone on vacation, Joe Rogan was a 1523 01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:04,000 Speaker 1: busy man. He was a busy man, so he's he's 1524 01:19:04,040 --> 01:19:08,000 Speaker 1: been all over the map. Recently, he endorsed or you know, 1525 01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:12,360 Speaker 1: came out in support of Ron DeSantis. David Dole did 1526 01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:17,080 Speaker 1: a segment where it was funny enough. It was in 1527 01:19:17,160 --> 01:19:19,760 Speaker 1: a podcast from either the same week as this one, 1528 01:19:19,920 --> 01:19:22,120 Speaker 1: or maybe maybe it was a week apart, but Rogan 1529 01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:25,439 Speaker 1: was talking to Tom Segura and he called Canada a 1530 01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:29,960 Speaker 1: communist country. So he's sort of he's been all over 1531 01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:32,760 Speaker 1: the place. He said a bunch of terrible things. And 1532 01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:36,280 Speaker 1: then we also have this where somebody clipped this out 1533 01:19:36,760 --> 01:19:39,320 Speaker 1: here he is talking to Andrew Schultz, who, by the way, 1534 01:19:39,320 --> 01:19:41,360 Speaker 1: is supposed to be on Crystal Kyland Friends very shortly. 1535 01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:44,760 Speaker 1: I need to confirm that. But we were talking to 1536 01:19:44,840 --> 01:19:48,120 Speaker 1: him the other week anyway, him and Schultz, Rogan and 1537 01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:51,280 Speaker 1: Schultz were politics came up and we got this moment, 1538 01:19:53,400 --> 01:19:55,920 Speaker 1: that's why we hate someone like Trump because Trump believes 1539 01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:57,759 Speaker 1: he should be the president, and he wants to be president. 1540 01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:00,760 Speaker 1: And there's something att I think that what was so 1541 01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:02,960 Speaker 1: endearing about Bernie. He was like, Yeah, this motherfucker don't 1542 01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:06,040 Speaker 1: want to win. He wants to help. Now is props 1543 01:20:06,040 --> 01:20:07,800 Speaker 1: to Andrew Schultz. I did not know. I had no 1544 01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:12,439 Speaker 1: idea that Schultz was at the very least Bernie adjacent. 1545 01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:17,120 Speaker 1: I didn't know that. But clearly, at the very least 1546 01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:20,360 Speaker 1: he's Bernie adjacent. If not, you know, would actively vote 1547 01:20:20,560 --> 01:20:24,120 Speaker 1: for Bernie. So props Andrew Schultz. There his idea of help. 1548 01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:26,200 Speaker 1: Do you agree with it? That's to be said by 1549 01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:29,400 Speaker 1: the average person. But did you feel like he cared 1550 01:20:29,400 --> 01:20:31,920 Speaker 1: about winning and controlling? No? I never got that sense. 1551 01:20:31,960 --> 01:20:33,920 Speaker 1: From now. I got a sense that he genuinely looks 1552 01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:37,240 Speaker 1: out for the working class and genuinely look this, I mean, 1553 01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:39,479 Speaker 1: I hate to relitigate all the way back in twenty 1554 01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:41,960 Speaker 1: sixteen yet again, but this is why the whole hashtag 1555 01:20:42,000 --> 01:20:45,320 Speaker 1: Bernie would have won thing blew up, because people had 1556 01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:48,920 Speaker 1: the intuitive sense like, yeah, he probably would have beaten Trump. 1557 01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:53,880 Speaker 1: Got people looked at Hillary Clinton and they thought, you know, conniving, backstabbing, 1558 01:20:54,520 --> 01:20:56,960 Speaker 1: terrible record on all the policies, deeply corrupt. I mean, 1559 01:20:56,960 --> 01:20:58,519 Speaker 1: there's an article, what was it in Politico that said, 1560 01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:00,599 Speaker 1: like the Clintons had taken I forget the Aact, number 1561 01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:03,320 Speaker 1: a billion, three billion dollars from donors in their entire careers. 1562 01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:06,479 Speaker 1: What you know together, people look at Hillary and they're like, 1563 01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:09,320 Speaker 1: I don't trust her, uh, and I don't think she's 1564 01:21:09,320 --> 01:21:12,120 Speaker 1: looking out for us, whereas people looked at Bernie and 1565 01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:15,679 Speaker 1: they thought, just like these guys are describing here, Ultimately, 1566 01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:18,000 Speaker 1: he just wants to do good and help people. He 1567 01:21:18,040 --> 01:21:20,679 Speaker 1: doesn't like He reluctantly even ran in the first place. 1568 01:21:20,720 --> 01:21:23,120 Speaker 1: There were articles way back in the day he was 1569 01:21:23,160 --> 01:21:25,559 Speaker 1: trying to get Elizabeth Warren to run so he wouldn't 1570 01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:29,599 Speaker 1: have to run. This isn't a guy who's thirsting for power, 1571 01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:32,479 Speaker 1: like they're accurately pointing out Donald Trump does. On a 1572 01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:35,720 Speaker 1: regular basis. He wants to help people. That's why I 1573 01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:38,200 Speaker 1: said that I supported him. And when he was explaining 1574 01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:40,280 Speaker 1: how his situation works with taxes, that they would just 1575 01:21:40,439 --> 01:21:45,080 Speaker 1: tax a small percentage of speculation of stock trading, just 1576 01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:48,200 Speaker 1: a tiny percentage of all these trades that are happening constantly, 1577 01:21:48,240 --> 01:21:50,200 Speaker 1: and that that money could go to education, that money 1578 01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:51,800 Speaker 1: can go to welfare, that money can go to all 1579 01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:53,920 Speaker 1: these different things that would use to benefit society. I 1580 01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:55,800 Speaker 1: was like, I'm in that sounds good. Is that real? 1581 01:21:55,920 --> 01:21:57,519 Speaker 1: What else you're trying to do? You're trying to avoid war, 1582 01:21:57,880 --> 01:21:59,599 Speaker 1: that sounds cool. What else you're trying to do, try 1583 01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:04,080 Speaker 1: to like eliminate student debt? Hey, what else? What about healthcare? Free? Healthcare? Amen? 1584 01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:06,439 Speaker 1: And he's a radical, And he's a radical. That's why 1585 01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:12,280 Speaker 1: we hate someone like Trump. I mean Rogan. I mean, 1586 01:22:12,320 --> 01:22:14,760 Speaker 1: Rogan's been all over the place recently. You know, in 1587 01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:18,559 Speaker 1: a sense he sort of represents your your normy American 1588 01:22:18,680 --> 01:22:24,680 Speaker 1: voter because he went from Bernie now to DeSantis. But 1589 01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:28,840 Speaker 1: at the same time he's liking DeSantis, He's still singing 1590 01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:32,559 Speaker 1: Bernie's praises. I mean, that's I don't know how one 1591 01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:35,720 Speaker 1: can do that, because again, it's like, if you're prioritizing 1592 01:22:35,760 --> 01:22:38,880 Speaker 1: the policy stuff, then you have to drop DeSantis because 1593 01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:41,759 Speaker 1: you know, Rogan sports a higher minimum wage, Rhonda Santas 1594 01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:45,439 Speaker 1: is against it. Rogan sports legalizing weed federally, Rhonda Santis 1595 01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:48,759 Speaker 1: is against it. You know, we did the whole breakdown 1596 01:22:48,800 --> 01:22:53,240 Speaker 1: of Rhonda Santis's record. He's a deeply corrupt guy. Deeply corrupt. 1597 01:22:53,560 --> 01:22:56,640 Speaker 1: I mean, he shifted the tax burden away from corporations 1598 01:22:56,680 --> 01:22:59,960 Speaker 1: in Florida to working class people. Rogan's for lower ten 1599 01:23:00,320 --> 01:23:02,519 Speaker 1: on working class people, so he should be against that. 1600 01:23:03,040 --> 01:23:06,840 Speaker 1: So I mean, look, there's just in a sense he 1601 01:23:06,840 --> 01:23:10,680 Speaker 1: seems confused, but clearly he still genuinely likes Bernie Sanders. 1602 01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:12,760 Speaker 1: And you know, this conversation that they're having, I think 1603 01:23:12,840 --> 01:23:15,519 Speaker 1: is spot on, and I think Andrew Schultz is correct 1604 01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:17,880 Speaker 1: as well, and clearly he's at the very least Bernie 1605 01:23:17,880 --> 01:23:21,920 Speaker 1: curious or Bernie adjacent. But this is, you know, man, 1606 01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:24,800 Speaker 1: gotta gotta get him back from that edge of the 1607 01:23:24,880 --> 01:23:30,400 Speaker 1: dysantist trap because DeSantis substantively. You know, I understand if 1608 01:23:30,439 --> 01:23:33,599 Speaker 1: you vote or think about politics based on like vibes, 1609 01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:35,519 Speaker 1: like who do I feel like is the most normal 1610 01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:38,200 Speaker 1: or the most relatable, then you could see somebody going 1611 01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:42,400 Speaker 1: from wildly different ideological camp to ideological camp. But nobody 1612 01:23:42,400 --> 01:23:44,240 Speaker 1: should think about politics that we have to think about 1613 01:23:44,240 --> 01:23:47,360 Speaker 1: it in terms of policy and what are people actually 1614 01:23:47,360 --> 01:23:48,760 Speaker 1: going to implement, what are they going to fight for, 1615 01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:51,760 Speaker 1: what legislation that that's really all that matters at the 1616 01:23:51,840 --> 01:23:54,840 Speaker 1: end of the day. So now we also have and 1617 01:23:54,920 --> 01:23:57,680 Speaker 1: this is David Pakmanschanel here, I must speed it up 1618 01:23:57,680 --> 01:24:01,280 Speaker 1: to one point twenty five. Joe Rogan calls Trump a 1619 01:24:01,360 --> 01:24:03,559 Speaker 1: drugged out man baby. Now this is funny enough. Again, 1620 01:24:03,640 --> 01:24:06,559 Speaker 1: this is in the same podcast that he had with 1621 01:24:07,240 --> 01:24:10,559 Speaker 1: uh Tom Segura. Now it's the Sagura podcast We're tru 1622 01:24:10,840 --> 01:24:16,920 Speaker 1: where Joe Rogan called Canada communist. But he's also gonna 1623 01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:18,639 Speaker 1: say this in this podcast. By the way, he also 1624 01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:21,600 Speaker 1: went on, like five seconds after saying Canada's communist, He's like, 1625 01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:23,360 Speaker 1: I don't really know what goes on in that country politically. 1626 01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:27,080 Speaker 1: Well then maybe you know, calling them communist. Communist is 1627 01:24:27,160 --> 01:24:28,840 Speaker 1: not a good idea if you don't know what's going 1628 01:24:28,840 --> 01:24:30,960 Speaker 1: on there substantively. Anyway, let's see what he says here. 1629 01:24:31,280 --> 01:24:34,559 Speaker 1: He was this sort of like turning on Donald Trump. 1630 01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:37,959 Speaker 1: Rogan now acknowledged that he believes Donald Trump was regularly 1631 01:24:37,960 --> 01:24:41,960 Speaker 1: on some people think some people think the reason why 1632 01:24:42,200 --> 01:24:47,679 Speaker 1: Rogan is going after Trump now is because he supports 1633 01:24:47,760 --> 01:24:51,400 Speaker 1: Ron DeSantis. I definitely don't think that's why he's going 1634 01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:54,120 Speaker 1: after Trump now, because honestly, he's gone after Trump a 1635 01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:56,320 Speaker 1: lot in the past. People just never talked about it, 1636 01:24:56,320 --> 01:24:58,760 Speaker 1: didn't recognize it. He had Sam Harrison where Sam Harris 1637 01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:01,080 Speaker 1: shit on Trump for like two hours straight and Rogan 1638 01:25:01,160 --> 01:25:04,519 Speaker 1: was sitting there agreeing with him. You know, I knew 1639 01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:07,840 Speaker 1: going back a year more, Trump was trying to get 1640 01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:09,599 Speaker 1: on Rogan's podcast, and Rogan was like, I don't want 1641 01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:11,280 Speaker 1: to do because I don't want to help him, even inadvertently. 1642 01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:16,519 Speaker 1: So it's not that he's going after Trump now because 1643 01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:20,519 Speaker 1: he supports DeSantis. It's that people are just recognizing now 1644 01:25:20,520 --> 01:25:23,240 Speaker 1: that he goes after Trump because everybody just assumed he 1645 01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:25,120 Speaker 1: was a Trump supporter because of the stuff he had 1646 01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:28,519 Speaker 1: said on COVID and probably some other stuff as well. 1647 01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:33,599 Speaker 1: Uppers during his presidency and called him a man baby 1648 01:25:33,680 --> 01:25:36,160 Speaker 1: during a recent show. This is interesting for a couple 1649 01:25:36,160 --> 01:25:38,719 Speaker 1: of reasons, which I will tell you Daily Beast reporting 1650 01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:41,479 Speaker 1: Joe Rogan calls Trump a drugged out man baby. The 1651 01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:44,160 Speaker 1: mega popular podcaster laughed at Trump's inability to focus on 1652 01:25:44,200 --> 01:25:47,400 Speaker 1: anything but himself in his latest episode, Trump and Rogan 1653 01:25:47,400 --> 01:25:49,040 Speaker 1: now and I guess what we would call a feud, 1654 01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:54,120 Speaker 1: and Rogan suggesting that Trump's energy comes from adderall call 1655 01:25:54,200 --> 01:25:55,960 Speaker 1: them a man again. It's funny to me that this 1656 01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:59,360 Speaker 1: is news now because I've been on Rogan's podcast four times, 1657 01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:01,439 Speaker 1: and I think an in at least two of those podcasts, 1658 01:26:01,479 --> 01:26:03,200 Speaker 1: we talked about how Trump is probably high as fuck 1659 01:26:03,200 --> 01:26:06,360 Speaker 1: on Adderall twenty four to seven Baby. This was during 1660 01:26:06,360 --> 01:26:10,080 Speaker 1: a conversation with Comedia and frequent guest Tom Segura. Let's 1661 01:26:10,080 --> 01:26:11,200 Speaker 1: take a look at this and I'll tell you why 1662 01:26:11,240 --> 01:26:13,679 Speaker 1: it's interesting in a moment. Tom segur is really funny, 1663 01:26:13,720 --> 01:26:15,080 Speaker 1: by the way. I think his stand up is good. 1664 01:26:15,080 --> 01:26:17,439 Speaker 1: I think his podcast is oftentimes really good. Well about 1665 01:26:17,479 --> 01:26:19,360 Speaker 1: that guy is that, you know, I'm saying, even when 1666 01:26:19,360 --> 01:26:21,639 Speaker 1: you when you watch him as president, he was full 1667 01:26:21,720 --> 01:26:23,280 Speaker 1: of energy, full of it every day, and they say 1668 01:26:23,320 --> 01:26:24,920 Speaker 1: except like four hours a night. One of those people 1669 01:26:25,040 --> 01:26:27,679 Speaker 1: on God. I think he's on adderall. By the way, 1670 01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:29,320 Speaker 1: I don't know the whole I sleep four hours, and 1671 01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:31,880 Speaker 1: I think super sleepers as they're called, are real where 1672 01:26:31,880 --> 01:26:34,479 Speaker 1: some people can perform well even with a lot less 1673 01:26:34,479 --> 01:26:37,519 Speaker 1: sleep than your average person. That's real. But you know, 1674 01:26:37,600 --> 01:26:40,160 Speaker 1: you do hear these stories about like all these high profile, 1675 01:26:40,439 --> 01:26:43,120 Speaker 1: you know, leader type men who I'm pro I only 1676 01:26:43,160 --> 01:26:45,479 Speaker 1: sleep like a couple hours a night. Sleep is the 1677 01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:47,720 Speaker 1: cousin death, bro. That's something I heard when I was 1678 01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:49,679 Speaker 1: like in high school. I think Tom was really stupid, 1679 01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:51,000 Speaker 1: and I don't know if I buy. I think it's 1680 01:26:51,040 --> 01:26:53,160 Speaker 1: also a little bit of mythbuilding. Certain people like to 1681 01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:55,400 Speaker 1: pretend like I get by I'm like no sleep because 1682 01:26:55,400 --> 01:26:57,160 Speaker 1: I'm a badass. But I think that a lot of 1683 01:26:57,200 --> 01:26:59,160 Speaker 1: that is like posturing and fake. In terms of Trump, 1684 01:26:59,200 --> 01:27:00,840 Speaker 1: I have no idea if it's or fake. I could 1685 01:27:00,880 --> 01:27:03,760 Speaker 1: see it going either way. To be honest, yes I do, 1686 01:27:04,120 --> 01:27:07,400 Speaker 1: only because there were multiple people who used to work 1687 01:27:07,400 --> 01:27:10,160 Speaker 1: on The Apprentice that were like, he was gassed up 1688 01:27:10,200 --> 01:27:12,760 Speaker 1: for shoots. Yeah. I covered that as well. There were 1689 01:27:12,760 --> 01:27:14,439 Speaker 1: a number of people on the Apprentice who were like 1690 01:27:14,479 --> 01:27:17,280 Speaker 1: we I think some even said they saw him snort adderall, 1691 01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:20,479 Speaker 1: snort it and by the way, that would make sense. 1692 01:27:20,800 --> 01:27:23,040 Speaker 1: What debate. I think it was the second debate with Hillary, 1693 01:27:23,080 --> 01:27:24,680 Speaker 1: the one where they were standing after the scandal came 1694 01:27:24,720 --> 01:27:26,880 Speaker 1: out with grabbing by the pussy, where Trump keeps doing 1695 01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:31,599 Speaker 1: the like he would talk and then sniffs. That's the drip. 1696 01:27:32,200 --> 01:27:34,719 Speaker 1: That's the if you snort cocaine or you snort adderall, 1697 01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:37,960 Speaker 1: that's the drip that you get. So and again, yeah, 1698 01:27:37,960 --> 01:27:39,439 Speaker 1: his energy and there are times where you could tell 1699 01:27:39,439 --> 01:27:41,479 Speaker 1: he was crashing from his adderall. He gave a speech 1700 01:27:41,520 --> 01:27:43,439 Speaker 1: one year at Seapack or no, was it the un 1701 01:27:43,520 --> 01:27:46,160 Speaker 1: or Seapack, I don't remember, uh No, the Seapack one. 1702 01:27:46,160 --> 01:27:48,519 Speaker 1: He was bonkers him through the roof and clearly high 1703 01:27:48,520 --> 01:27:51,200 Speaker 1: as balls. But then the un one he was like, 1704 01:27:52,280 --> 01:27:56,040 Speaker 1: and I would say to the people who want to 1705 01:27:56,080 --> 01:28:00,760 Speaker 1: bring about peace in the region. So you've seen you've 1706 01:28:00,800 --> 01:28:02,160 Speaker 1: seen both. You've seen him on the way up, you 1707 01:28:02,200 --> 01:28:04,760 Speaker 1: seen him a on the way down. Bill. Yeah, because 1708 01:28:04,760 --> 01:28:07,640 Speaker 1: he has trouble reading. He doesn't he he would he 1709 01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:10,080 Speaker 1: was struggle to be prompter or script when he was. 1710 01:28:10,400 --> 01:28:12,320 Speaker 1: We know that's true because we just watched him do it. 1711 01:28:12,520 --> 01:28:14,439 Speaker 1: He was like, the word yesterday is tough for me. 1712 01:28:14,479 --> 01:28:17,840 Speaker 1: I don't know. Take that one out. It might be overstated. 1713 01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:20,400 Speaker 1: Like he knows how to read. He knows how to read, 1714 01:28:20,520 --> 01:28:24,040 Speaker 1: but it's it's very he's idiosyncratic with it. He doesn't 1715 01:28:24,120 --> 01:28:26,160 Speaker 1: like certain words to be on there, and he struggled. 1716 01:28:26,200 --> 01:28:28,800 Speaker 1: He does struggle to get it out coherently. But hey, 1717 01:28:28,880 --> 01:28:30,639 Speaker 1: look I understand that because I'm the same. I don't 1718 01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:32,720 Speaker 1: like reading a prompter. I like to shoot from the hip, 1719 01:28:33,120 --> 01:28:35,519 Speaker 1: talk off the cuff, and that's more engaging. By the way, 1720 01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:37,080 Speaker 1: when you just talk off the cuff, people want to 1721 01:28:37,120 --> 01:28:39,120 Speaker 1: listen to you. When you're clearly speaking from the heart. 1722 01:28:39,160 --> 01:28:42,960 Speaker 1: If you're reading it, it's easy to tune out. Just 1723 01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:45,400 Speaker 1: let's say sober. So they would give him that and 1724 01:28:45,479 --> 01:28:47,519 Speaker 1: he would dial in more on reading because it's he 1725 01:28:47,520 --> 01:28:49,920 Speaker 1: gets very bored. They said, you know, he would get 1726 01:28:49,960 --> 01:28:52,479 Speaker 1: bored at the CIA briefing in the mornings. He was like, 1727 01:28:52,520 --> 01:28:53,880 Speaker 1: I don't want to read that. There's a daily briefing 1728 01:28:53,920 --> 01:28:56,160 Speaker 1: you get as president. He's like, you read it and 1729 01:28:56,160 --> 01:28:57,840 Speaker 1: then tell me and if it's bored. So they would 1730 01:28:57,880 --> 01:28:59,280 Speaker 1: have to make it more engaging for him because he 1731 01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:03,080 Speaker 1: was just put his name in briefings multiple times to 1732 01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:05,880 Speaker 1: keep him interested. And then Kushner, you know, his son 1733 01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:08,320 Speaker 1: in law, said that he came up with a formula 1734 01:29:09,160 --> 01:29:11,519 Speaker 1: to keep him engaged. This is called the bad news sandwich. 1735 01:29:11,560 --> 01:29:14,559 Speaker 1: It's often done in a lot of venues. Yes, because 1736 01:29:14,640 --> 01:29:16,280 Speaker 1: you know, he obviously was close to him and knw 1737 01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:20,639 Speaker 1: him well. And the formula was like two good one bats. 1738 01:29:20,640 --> 01:29:22,240 Speaker 1: So they weren to give him bad news. They could go, 1739 01:29:22,280 --> 01:29:24,439 Speaker 1: you start with some good news, so they go, this 1740 01:29:24,520 --> 01:29:26,960 Speaker 1: is going, well, everybody's throll with you about this. Here's 1741 01:29:26,960 --> 01:29:30,640 Speaker 1: a bad thing. Also, people love you for this. So 1742 01:29:30,640 --> 01:29:32,320 Speaker 1: that's how that's how he would tell him bad news. 1743 01:29:32,360 --> 01:29:34,360 Speaker 1: They couldn't just get a bunch of bad news. Of course, 1744 01:29:34,720 --> 01:29:38,160 Speaker 1: he's a man baby, he's a toddler. He's a toddler. 1745 01:29:38,320 --> 01:29:39,760 Speaker 1: So there's two things here, and I think that they're 1746 01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:42,200 Speaker 1: both important. Yeah, all right, we don't need to dive 1747 01:29:42,240 --> 01:29:46,120 Speaker 1: into Pacma's commentary, not as a diss to him, but 1748 01:29:46,439 --> 01:29:48,880 Speaker 1: you know, I just wanted to show that that portion 1749 01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:51,840 Speaker 1: of the video there of Sigura and Rogan. Yeah, so 1750 01:29:51,960 --> 01:29:56,439 Speaker 1: Rogan is I mean, his classic Rogan. Right, it's very 1751 01:29:57,280 --> 01:29:58,920 Speaker 1: I think this, but then I also think this, and 1752 01:29:58,960 --> 01:30:01,519 Speaker 1: are those things contradictor eh? Maybe, but you know, this 1753 01:30:01,560 --> 01:30:02,680 Speaker 1: is what I think in this moment. This is what 1754 01:30:02,720 --> 01:30:04,160 Speaker 1: I think in that moment, and that's you know, people 1755 01:30:04,160 --> 01:30:06,559 Speaker 1: have pointed this out a number of times. He has 1756 01:30:06,600 --> 01:30:08,200 Speaker 1: Ben Shapiro on and he agrees with him, like ninety 1757 01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:09,439 Speaker 1: percent of the time. He has me on, he agrees 1758 01:30:09,439 --> 01:30:12,160 Speaker 1: with me ninety percent of the time. It's just the 1759 01:30:12,280 --> 01:30:15,760 Speaker 1: nature of what it is. But anyway, all you can 1760 01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:19,479 Speaker 1: do is keep, you know, saying, hey, man, on this stuff, 1761 01:30:19,479 --> 01:30:21,280 Speaker 1: you're wrong, and I disagree with you massively, but on 1762 01:30:21,320 --> 01:30:24,400 Speaker 1: this stuff, yeah, fair point. So hey, look, I'm happy 1763 01:30:24,560 --> 01:30:28,000 Speaker 1: to see that at least he still likes Bernie Sanders 1764 01:30:28,040 --> 01:30:31,960 Speaker 1: defends Bernie Sanders openly says I, Oh, free college, I 1765 01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:33,840 Speaker 1: like that. Oh elimon Ae stuon London, I like that. 1766 01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:36,800 Speaker 1: Oh the taxing Wall Street speculation, I like that. That's 1767 01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:39,080 Speaker 1: all good. I would just again, I would implore him, 1768 01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:41,840 Speaker 1: for the love of God, Joe, that means you cannot 1769 01:30:41,880 --> 01:30:43,639 Speaker 1: believe those things, and then also say, oh, and rond 1770 01:30:43,640 --> 01:30:46,719 Speaker 1: de Santas is based. Can't do it because Ronda Santis 1771 01:30:46,760 --> 01:30:53,400 Speaker 1: stands for the opposite of every single thing you just espoused. Hey, 1772 01:30:53,520 --> 01:30:57,080 Speaker 1: Breaking Points, I'm joined by the Washington Post Josh Rogan, 1773 01:30:57,120 --> 01:30:59,679 Speaker 1: who was making his return to Breaking Points to discuss 1774 01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:04,400 Speaker 1: Seaker Pelosi's upcoming trip to Taiwan. Well, I said, upcoming, 1775 01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:06,519 Speaker 1: but who knows if it's actually going to happen or not. 1776 01:31:06,560 --> 01:31:09,040 Speaker 1: We'll get into that here. Let's just start with the obvious. 1777 01:31:09,120 --> 01:31:15,639 Speaker 1: Why is Speaker Pelosi's perspective trip to Taiwan so controversial? Well, 1778 01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:18,240 Speaker 1: it shouldn't be controversial. The basic point that she's making 1779 01:31:18,360 --> 01:31:20,640 Speaker 1: is that the Chinese Communist Party shouldn't be able to 1780 01:31:20,680 --> 01:31:24,719 Speaker 1: tell Americans when and where they can go places. Seems 1781 01:31:24,720 --> 01:31:27,360 Speaker 1: like a pretty basic point. There's no like, how dare 1782 01:31:27,400 --> 01:31:31,040 Speaker 1: they what right do they have to tell? Nancy Pelosi 1783 01:31:31,160 --> 01:31:33,080 Speaker 1: or anyone else that they can go to Taiwan whenever 1784 01:31:33,280 --> 01:31:35,280 Speaker 1: or they can't whenever they want to threaten punishment in 1785 01:31:35,320 --> 01:31:38,559 Speaker 1: a crisis. It just shows that the Chinese Communist Party 1786 01:31:38,600 --> 01:31:41,000 Speaker 1: is just getting more aggressive and more reckless, and more 1787 01:31:41,040 --> 01:31:45,040 Speaker 1: threatening and more expansionists. And you know that should shock 1788 01:31:45,080 --> 01:31:47,479 Speaker 1: a lot of people. Now. The reason it's controversially ear 1789 01:31:47,479 --> 01:31:49,880 Speaker 1: in Washington is because Prision of the United States blurted 1790 01:31:49,960 --> 01:31:53,720 Speaker 1: out on the tarmac that he didn't like it, you know, 1791 01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:57,599 Speaker 1: and he revealed what had been going on internally between 1792 01:31:57,600 --> 01:32:01,200 Speaker 1: the Biden White House and the Pelosi team for several weeks, 1793 01:32:01,240 --> 01:32:04,960 Speaker 1: which was their long quiet diplomacy that could impress upon 1794 01:32:05,040 --> 01:32:07,160 Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi that it was just too risky of a 1795 01:32:07,240 --> 01:32:10,160 Speaker 1: time for host of reasons, that the intelligence showed that, 1796 01:32:11,240 --> 01:32:13,599 Speaker 1: you know, this could spark a crisis, the Chinese were 1797 01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:17,040 Speaker 1: taking it as an escalation, rightly or wrongly, and that 1798 01:32:17,120 --> 01:32:19,360 Speaker 1: they Biden administration of the military were the ones who 1799 01:32:19,360 --> 01:32:21,439 Speaker 1: are gonna have to deal with that. But she was 1800 01:32:21,520 --> 01:32:24,439 Speaker 1: just not convinced. She just didn't care for her This 1801 01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:26,680 Speaker 1: is her legacy. You know, she's not going to be 1802 01:32:26,720 --> 01:32:29,080 Speaker 1: speaker much longer. She's not going to be in Congress 1803 01:32:29,160 --> 01:32:31,280 Speaker 1: much longer if she wants to go to taiwanas Speaker 1804 01:32:31,280 --> 01:32:34,600 Speaker 1: of the House. This is it basically, So that's a 1805 01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:36,600 Speaker 1: risk that she's willing to take. It's just not a 1806 01:32:36,680 --> 01:32:39,120 Speaker 1: risk that the White House is willing to take. And 1807 01:32:39,520 --> 01:32:43,200 Speaker 1: there's the rub. Can you speak to the history of 1808 01:32:43,720 --> 01:32:47,559 Speaker 1: US elected officials engaging with Taiwan's for example, why President 1809 01:32:47,560 --> 01:32:52,439 Speaker 1: Trump very controversially called the Taiwanese like after he was elected. 1810 01:32:52,479 --> 01:32:54,479 Speaker 1: The CCP did not like that. Just speak to the 1811 01:32:54,600 --> 01:32:58,280 Speaker 1: history there. I know, Speaker I'm pre Speaker Gingrich visited Taiwan. 1812 01:32:58,439 --> 01:33:02,760 Speaker 1: What's the history there? Right? Well, you know, Congressional delegations 1813 01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:06,120 Speaker 1: have been going to Taiwan for decades, and there's a 1814 01:33:06,160 --> 01:33:09,280 Speaker 1: typical playbook the Chinese Communist Party bitches and moans, and 1815 01:33:09,320 --> 01:33:12,040 Speaker 1: then you know, they back down and everyone goes on 1816 01:33:12,120 --> 01:33:15,160 Speaker 1: with their lives. Now, you know, yes, Speaker Geing which 1817 01:33:15,240 --> 01:33:17,479 Speaker 1: was the first and so far the only House Speaker 1818 01:33:17,520 --> 01:33:19,640 Speaker 1: to go, but at that time he was in the 1819 01:33:19,640 --> 01:33:22,400 Speaker 1: opposition and so it couldn't really be seen as a 1820 01:33:22,479 --> 01:33:25,760 Speaker 1: US government action per se, rightly or wrongly. And the 1821 01:33:25,800 --> 01:33:28,519 Speaker 1: difference now with Speaker Pelosi is that the Chinese can't understand. 1822 01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:31,040 Speaker 1: They really don't believe us when we say that, Like 1823 01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:33,519 Speaker 1: the president of the United States can't tell his speaker 1824 01:33:33,800 --> 01:33:35,800 Speaker 1: from his own party not to do something he doesn't 1825 01:33:35,800 --> 01:33:37,800 Speaker 1: want him. She doesn't he doesn't want her to do. 1826 01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:40,200 Speaker 1: They don't get that in their system. If you defy 1827 01:33:40,280 --> 01:33:43,000 Speaker 1: the president, you die, you go to jail. Your old 1828 01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:46,880 Speaker 1: family's done forever. So they look at that and they're like, oh, 1829 01:33:46,920 --> 01:33:50,000 Speaker 1: the Biden White House must be screwing with us. And 1830 01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:52,880 Speaker 1: from Pelosi's perspective, it's just like, oh, no, this is 1831 01:33:52,920 --> 01:33:54,840 Speaker 1: a thing that we should be able to do. And 1832 01:33:54,880 --> 01:33:57,840 Speaker 1: she's got a sort of an instinct to defend the 1833 01:33:58,360 --> 01:34:01,800 Speaker 1: prerogative of the legislative all of that. But you know, 1834 01:34:01,840 --> 01:34:03,040 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it's going to be 1835 01:34:03,040 --> 01:34:05,439 Speaker 1: the administration who has to deal with the crisis if 1836 01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:09,120 Speaker 1: the Chinese do do something reckless, because what's changed, I mean, 1837 01:34:09,160 --> 01:34:11,080 Speaker 1: the direct answer to your question is what's different now 1838 01:34:11,160 --> 01:34:14,479 Speaker 1: is that the CCP is much much worse and there 1839 01:34:14,479 --> 01:34:17,320 Speaker 1: are people inside that leadership who would love a crisis, 1840 01:34:17,360 --> 01:34:20,320 Speaker 1: and by the way, their punishment wouldn't necessarily come down 1841 01:34:20,320 --> 01:34:23,080 Speaker 1: on us. It's not really about them shooting Nancy Pelosi 1842 01:34:23,080 --> 01:34:25,360 Speaker 1: out of the sky. It's about them punishing Taiwan because 1843 01:34:25,360 --> 01:34:27,960 Speaker 1: they always go after the weaker party, and that could 1844 01:34:27,960 --> 01:34:30,000 Speaker 1: be a range of military and economic pressures that the 1845 01:34:30,040 --> 01:34:31,479 Speaker 1: Tiwinese are going to have to deal with through no 1846 01:34:31,520 --> 01:34:34,240 Speaker 1: fault of their own. So I think there is legitimate 1847 01:34:34,280 --> 01:34:36,720 Speaker 1: risk here, and there is a discussion to be have 1848 01:34:36,840 --> 01:34:41,000 Speaker 1: over cost and benefits. But if you're Nancy Pelosi, you're thinking, well, 1849 01:34:41,040 --> 01:34:43,320 Speaker 1: I want to be in my you know, I've envisioned 1850 01:34:43,360 --> 01:34:46,040 Speaker 1: myself as some sort of like leader on US China relations, 1851 01:34:46,040 --> 01:34:47,639 Speaker 1: and that means I have to show up in Taiwan. 1852 01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:50,719 Speaker 1: It's gonna be so important. Then none of those calculations 1853 01:34:50,720 --> 01:34:53,040 Speaker 1: are going to stop her. Yeah, this is so interesting 1854 01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:56,200 Speaker 1: because a million different questions come up. Star REGI piece 1855 01:34:56,520 --> 01:34:58,960 Speaker 1: link to it in the show notes, obviously, but you 1856 01:34:59,240 --> 01:35:02,320 Speaker 1: asked a couple of elevant questions. So a huge question 1857 01:35:02,360 --> 01:35:05,920 Speaker 1: here is just this is China bluffing question of what 1858 01:35:06,080 --> 01:35:09,000 Speaker 1: or earlier in this interview you pointed out they routinely 1859 01:35:09,560 --> 01:35:12,040 Speaker 1: will bluster and say things like that, but one could 1860 01:35:12,040 --> 01:35:15,479 Speaker 1: easily say before nineteen fourteen, there is all sorts of 1861 01:35:15,520 --> 01:35:18,639 Speaker 1: bluster and then finally something big just happened. So how 1862 01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:22,240 Speaker 1: do we weigh the track record of these situations not 1863 01:35:22,439 --> 01:35:26,200 Speaker 1: escalating versus the risk of something finally escalating at that 1864 01:35:26,320 --> 01:35:30,439 Speaker 1: last second? Right, I think, you know, I think the 1865 01:35:30,439 --> 01:35:32,160 Speaker 1: best way to think about it is this. You know, 1866 01:35:32,840 --> 01:35:38,040 Speaker 1: the situation is escalating, okay, because of what the Beijing 1867 01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:42,200 Speaker 1: is doing. They're constantly escalating. They're becoming more menacing, sending 1868 01:35:42,200 --> 01:35:45,519 Speaker 1: out more planes, doing more dangerous stuff near our stuff, 1869 01:35:46,280 --> 01:35:50,479 Speaker 1: expanding their military presence, building nuclear weapons, hundreds of nuclear 1870 01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:52,679 Speaker 1: weapons for what reason. What do they need five hundred 1871 01:35:52,680 --> 01:35:56,759 Speaker 1: new nuclear weapons for. It's crazy and expanding all the time. 1872 01:35:56,840 --> 01:36:00,120 Speaker 1: So that's a change of the status quo. Now, their 1873 01:36:00,200 --> 01:36:03,640 Speaker 1: propaganda says that we're the ones that are escalating and 1874 01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:05,720 Speaker 1: that we're the ones becoming more aggressive and they're just 1875 01:36:05,760 --> 01:36:07,760 Speaker 1: responding to us, which is a lie. The truth is 1876 01:36:07,760 --> 01:36:11,200 Speaker 1: we're responding to them. But when something like this happens, 1877 01:36:11,439 --> 01:36:14,200 Speaker 1: you could see easily why the Biden administration is concerned. 1878 01:36:14,240 --> 01:36:16,519 Speaker 1: They're going to turn it into propaganda. They're gonna be like, see, 1879 01:36:17,200 --> 01:36:19,200 Speaker 1: the US is escalating on us, and they could use 1880 01:36:19,200 --> 01:36:21,759 Speaker 1: that as an excuse to do to change the status 1881 01:36:21,800 --> 01:36:23,559 Speaker 1: call on the ground. You know, if they do a 1882 01:36:23,600 --> 01:36:27,479 Speaker 1: flyover of Taiwan proper, just for one example, or if 1883 01:36:27,520 --> 01:36:30,040 Speaker 1: they close off the street, you know, for a more 1884 01:36:30,120 --> 01:36:35,480 Speaker 1: drastic example, that'll be something that will be probably irreversible 1885 01:36:35,520 --> 01:36:38,280 Speaker 1: in terms of its impact. And I get it, you 1886 01:36:38,320 --> 01:36:39,960 Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like the like, we don't want 1887 01:36:39,960 --> 01:36:41,519 Speaker 1: to hand them those easy wins. And if we are 1888 01:36:41,560 --> 01:36:43,880 Speaker 1: going to have a crisis with Beijing over Taiwan, we'd 1889 01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:45,720 Speaker 1: love it to be on our terms, and we'd like 1890 01:36:45,760 --> 01:36:48,240 Speaker 1: it to be when we're ready, not necessarily when Nancy 1891 01:36:48,240 --> 01:36:51,760 Speaker 1: Pelosi happens to have a congressional recess, you know. And 1892 01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:54,320 Speaker 1: so there's a chess game going on here, okay between 1893 01:36:54,320 --> 01:36:57,560 Speaker 1: the Biden administration and the CCP and Nancy Pelosi just 1894 01:36:57,600 --> 01:37:00,080 Speaker 1: sat down and made a move for us, and the 1895 01:37:00,080 --> 01:37:02,400 Speaker 1: Biden people are like, wait a second, we didn't ask 1896 01:37:02,439 --> 01:37:03,680 Speaker 1: you to do that. We don't like the move that 1897 01:37:03,720 --> 01:37:06,840 Speaker 1: you made, and she's like tough shit. So you know 1898 01:37:08,040 --> 01:37:09,960 Speaker 1: my instinct, and I think a lot of people, especially 1899 01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:12,080 Speaker 1: in concressences, think this is to be like, you know, 1900 01:37:12,280 --> 01:37:15,639 Speaker 1: screw you, CCP, We're gonna go to Taiwan and that's it. 1901 01:37:16,040 --> 01:37:18,639 Speaker 1: And on balance, I think the funny thing is now 1902 01:37:18,800 --> 01:37:21,240 Speaker 1: because of what Biden did because he made it so public. 1903 01:37:21,680 --> 01:37:24,160 Speaker 1: Now she pretty much has to go now, she can't 1904 01:37:24,200 --> 01:37:27,120 Speaker 1: back down. Now it would be a huge signal to 1905 01:37:27,200 --> 01:37:30,559 Speaker 1: Beijing that they're bullying works. And then when we just 1906 01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:33,719 Speaker 1: be living in a world full of bullying. So really 1907 01:37:33,760 --> 01:37:35,640 Speaker 1: the soup that the Biden administration is in is of 1908 01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:38,080 Speaker 1: their own recipe. So the way to think about this 1909 01:37:38,120 --> 01:37:42,559 Speaker 1: then is that if the bullying worked, you could see 1910 01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:46,880 Speaker 1: this extend into more consequential areas long term in the 1911 01:37:46,920 --> 01:37:50,040 Speaker 1: sense that it could start with Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of 1912 01:37:50,040 --> 01:37:52,240 Speaker 1: the House, can't visit that's a red line for us. 1913 01:37:52,560 --> 01:37:54,640 Speaker 1: But then it could transit would what would be like 1914 01:37:54,800 --> 01:37:58,880 Speaker 1: higher stakes versions of the Chinese learning. Wait, we could 1915 01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:03,080 Speaker 1: actually escalate rhetorically and cause back downs to happen. Right, Well, 1916 01:38:03,080 --> 01:38:05,719 Speaker 1: it's not a long term issue. It's a now issue, 1917 01:38:05,960 --> 01:38:09,400 Speaker 1: and it's happening in all elements of our engagement with 1918 01:38:09,479 --> 01:38:12,719 Speaker 1: China on all fronts. Okay, And when the NBA gets 1919 01:38:12,720 --> 01:38:16,120 Speaker 1: punished for the tweet of a manager who says stand 1920 01:38:16,120 --> 01:38:18,960 Speaker 1: with Hong Kong, that's the example, because now they're saying 1921 01:38:18,960 --> 01:38:20,760 Speaker 1: Americans can't tweet what they want, or we're going to 1922 01:38:20,800 --> 01:38:25,120 Speaker 1: punish your corporations when we punish, when we punish forced 1923 01:38:25,200 --> 01:38:30,639 Speaker 1: labor from them using wigers in Chinjong to pick cotton. 1924 01:38:31,000 --> 01:38:34,240 Speaker 1: And they threaten Nike, okay. And they do the same 1925 01:38:34,240 --> 01:38:36,280 Speaker 1: thing when they threaten universities with their funding and when 1926 01:38:36,280 --> 01:38:39,240 Speaker 1: they threaten Wall Street with their investments. And you know, 1927 01:38:39,280 --> 01:38:41,160 Speaker 1: that's how you have to think about the CCP. It's 1928 01:38:41,200 --> 01:38:44,320 Speaker 1: a huge extortion ring. Basically, it's like they go around 1929 01:38:44,320 --> 01:38:46,400 Speaker 1: to every company and country and they say, oh, a 1930 01:38:46,439 --> 01:38:48,280 Speaker 1: nice country you got, they'd be shamed of something happened 1931 01:38:48,280 --> 01:38:51,960 Speaker 1: to it, okay, And you know this Taiwan thing is 1932 01:38:52,000 --> 01:38:55,160 Speaker 1: just a one piece of that. And so yeah, every 1933 01:38:55,200 --> 01:38:57,680 Speaker 1: time we we're only as strong as our weakest link. 1934 01:38:57,720 --> 01:39:00,720 Speaker 1: And every time we back down in bolded them to 1935 01:39:00,760 --> 01:39:03,639 Speaker 1: continue using this tactic more. In other words, when they 1936 01:39:03,680 --> 01:39:05,720 Speaker 1: test our resolve, maybe the best thing to do is 1937 01:39:05,760 --> 01:39:08,800 Speaker 1: to show our resolves, you know. And that's the way 1938 01:39:08,800 --> 01:39:10,439 Speaker 1: that you deal with thugs, that's the way that you 1939 01:39:10,479 --> 01:39:12,640 Speaker 1: deal with gangsters, and that's the way we have to 1940 01:39:12,720 --> 01:39:15,439 Speaker 1: deal with the CCP. So the next question would be 1941 01:39:15,479 --> 01:39:20,599 Speaker 1: the say, like the congressional executive branch theory here, how 1942 01:39:20,640 --> 01:39:25,320 Speaker 1: do you think the different branches should consider themselves in 1943 01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:29,839 Speaker 1: these high stakes quasi second Cold War scenarios because obviously, 1944 01:39:29,840 --> 01:39:33,559 Speaker 1: from a constitutional perspective, the you know, Congress is a 1945 01:39:33,600 --> 01:39:37,800 Speaker 1: coequal branch with the executive. However, obviously, constitutional speaking, the 1946 01:39:37,920 --> 01:39:40,960 Speaker 1: executive branch has more power over foreign policy than it 1947 01:39:41,000 --> 01:39:44,200 Speaker 1: does domestically. So how should the just how should Congress 1948 01:39:44,240 --> 01:39:46,640 Speaker 1: just think of its role in the situation, because this 1949 01:39:46,840 --> 01:39:49,120 Speaker 1: is kind of where you sort of see the theory 1950 01:39:49,600 --> 01:39:52,680 Speaker 1: come into real clash with how the railroad actually operates, 1951 01:39:53,360 --> 01:39:56,400 Speaker 1: right I You know, listen, I've been covering Congress and 1952 01:39:56,439 --> 01:40:00,040 Speaker 1: foreign policy in this town for eighteen years, okay, And 1953 01:40:00,360 --> 01:40:04,600 Speaker 1: that role that Congress plays, sometimes a coercive one, sometimes 1954 01:40:04,600 --> 01:40:07,599 Speaker 1: a persuasive one, sometimes using the power of the purse, 1955 01:40:07,640 --> 01:40:11,439 Speaker 1: which is really Congress's core mission, is really important and 1956 01:40:11,520 --> 01:40:14,639 Speaker 1: has been really important historically. Just look at Ukraine. You know, 1957 01:40:15,160 --> 01:40:18,240 Speaker 1: there's Democrats and Republicans been dragging this administration into doing 1958 01:40:18,479 --> 01:40:20,040 Speaker 1: what I consider to be the right thing on Ukraine 1959 01:40:20,080 --> 01:40:22,639 Speaker 1: by giving them the weapons and support that they need 1960 01:40:22,680 --> 01:40:25,720 Speaker 1: to save their country and push the Russians back. And 1961 01:40:26,400 --> 01:40:30,000 Speaker 1: that's you know, again, with some exceptions, bipartisan congressional pressure 1962 01:40:30,080 --> 01:40:32,080 Speaker 1: has a lot to do with that. Now, they don't 1963 01:40:32,120 --> 01:40:36,000 Speaker 1: always get it right, obviously, but that's our system. That's 1964 01:40:36,000 --> 01:40:37,760 Speaker 1: why we have checks and balances. That's why we don't 1965 01:40:37,800 --> 01:40:40,360 Speaker 1: concentrate all the power in one branch or the other. 1966 01:40:41,080 --> 01:40:42,880 Speaker 1: That's a strength of our system. That's what the Chinese 1967 01:40:42,920 --> 01:40:47,680 Speaker 1: don't have. When Jijingping says zero COVID for everybody, you 1968 01:40:47,680 --> 01:40:50,679 Speaker 1: can't say, hey, wait a second, maybe that's crazy, because 1969 01:40:50,720 --> 01:40:53,559 Speaker 1: you'll die. You'll be breaking rocks for twenty years. So, 1970 01:40:54,360 --> 01:40:57,400 Speaker 1: you know, I like the fact that the human beings, 1971 01:40:57,439 --> 01:41:00,200 Speaker 1: the voters, the people in our country have represented is 1972 01:41:00,200 --> 01:41:03,360 Speaker 1: who have power over farm pause is really important. You know. 1973 01:41:03,680 --> 01:41:06,000 Speaker 1: It's not to say they always make good decisions because 1974 01:41:06,000 --> 01:41:10,080 Speaker 1: they're corrupted by their you know, paymasters and the lobbyists 1975 01:41:10,080 --> 01:41:11,919 Speaker 1: and all of that. But that's a whole nother podcast. 1976 01:41:13,000 --> 01:41:15,639 Speaker 1: So I guess the and it's about the egos. That's 1977 01:41:15,640 --> 01:41:17,639 Speaker 1: the other thing. These congressmen of egos. I just think 1978 01:41:17,680 --> 01:41:20,599 Speaker 1: of the ego of a you know, Joe Biden, who 1979 01:41:20,640 --> 01:41:24,040 Speaker 1: was in Congress for fifty years and Nancy Pelosi, who's 1980 01:41:24,080 --> 01:41:26,639 Speaker 1: in Congress or I don't know how probably almost all 1981 01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:29,160 Speaker 1: that time they've known each other. Neither of them wants 1982 01:41:29,160 --> 01:41:30,640 Speaker 1: to back down. You know what I mean on the 1983 01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:33,320 Speaker 1: China issue, this is legacy stuff. So you know a 1984 01:41:33,320 --> 01:41:37,440 Speaker 1: lot of this policy comes down to politics and personalities. 1985 01:41:37,600 --> 01:41:39,880 Speaker 1: That's the truth of it. So for our last few 1986 01:41:39,920 --> 01:41:43,000 Speaker 1: questions to sum up your position, it seems that we 1987 01:41:43,040 --> 01:41:46,559 Speaker 1: can debate whether or not this was the perfect right 1988 01:41:46,640 --> 01:41:50,480 Speaker 1: timing for Speaker Pelosi to go. But considering the buoying 1989 01:41:50,600 --> 01:41:54,320 Speaker 1: and the risk of like rewarding said buoying, you think 1990 01:41:54,360 --> 01:41:57,960 Speaker 1: the trip can and should move forward. What would you 1991 01:41:58,000 --> 01:42:02,080 Speaker 1: say though the playbook moving forward should be because I 1992 01:42:02,120 --> 01:42:05,559 Speaker 1: can be sympathetic to that position, but still say the 1993 01:42:05,640 --> 01:42:10,400 Speaker 1: freelancing is not is not ideal longer term. So wait, 1994 01:42:10,479 --> 01:42:12,360 Speaker 1: what would you just you know, speaking to all our 1995 01:42:12,400 --> 01:42:15,240 Speaker 1: representatives to memory the executive branch, like what should our 1996 01:42:15,280 --> 01:42:18,040 Speaker 1: playbook be? Right? You know, it would be nice if 1997 01:42:18,080 --> 01:42:20,960 Speaker 1: they had worked this out between them and so that 1998 01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:22,880 Speaker 1: America could speak with one voice and we wouldn't be 1999 01:42:22,880 --> 01:42:25,960 Speaker 1: sending mixed signals to our allies because it's like, you know, 2000 01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:28,360 Speaker 1: the Chinese are gonna say what they're gonna say, but 2001 01:42:28,400 --> 01:42:30,200 Speaker 1: it's really our allies who were looking at this and 2002 01:42:30,280 --> 01:42:31,960 Speaker 1: Asian and being like, wait a second, do these guys 2003 01:42:31,960 --> 01:42:35,639 Speaker 1: have their act together, you know, and they've got a point, 2004 01:42:35,880 --> 01:42:39,120 Speaker 1: you know. So that's why I say that Biden got 2005 01:42:39,160 --> 01:42:41,160 Speaker 1: him his staff into this mess, because he's the one. 2006 01:42:41,320 --> 01:42:43,559 Speaker 1: Well first at least that was a big problem, and 2007 01:42:43,600 --> 01:42:47,439 Speaker 1: then Biden confirmed it, you know, and that kind of 2008 01:42:47,479 --> 01:42:50,320 Speaker 1: soured the negotiations. But there's a compromise to be had here. 2009 01:42:50,360 --> 01:42:53,160 Speaker 1: In other words, if Nancy Pelosi wants to say face, 2010 01:42:53,160 --> 01:42:55,080 Speaker 1: she could go after the election, just for one example 2011 01:42:55,120 --> 01:42:57,920 Speaker 1: of a compromise. She wouldn't really, she'd still be speaker, 2012 01:42:58,360 --> 01:43:00,240 Speaker 1: but you know, she wouldn't be on her way out 2013 01:43:00,280 --> 01:43:03,599 Speaker 1: the door, and Gijiping would have already you know, won 2014 01:43:03,680 --> 01:43:05,720 Speaker 1: his third term. Maybe he doesn't feel under a lot 2015 01:43:05,720 --> 01:43:08,720 Speaker 1: of pressure to do something crazy in retaliation. That's the 2016 01:43:08,720 --> 01:43:10,599 Speaker 1: theory of the case, is that if she goes after 2017 01:43:10,640 --> 01:43:14,120 Speaker 1: the election, everybody's equally happy and equally unhappy. We all 2018 01:43:14,160 --> 01:43:18,320 Speaker 1: move on with our lives. But she goes, you know, 2019 01:43:18,439 --> 01:43:20,559 Speaker 1: the Chinese don't have to like it. They're just gonna 2020 01:43:20,560 --> 01:43:23,360 Speaker 1: have to lump it, okay. And at that point, I 2021 01:43:23,439 --> 01:43:26,160 Speaker 1: think it's the really important for the Biden administration to 2022 01:43:26,760 --> 01:43:30,400 Speaker 1: stop leaking on her and to start supporting her and 2023 01:43:30,520 --> 01:43:33,960 Speaker 1: to just say clearly to the Chinese, hey, listen, don't 2024 01:43:33,960 --> 01:43:37,120 Speaker 1: do something crazy because that's not gonna be good for you. Okay, 2025 01:43:37,640 --> 01:43:40,679 Speaker 1: and she's going and that it's gonna be everything's gonna 2026 01:43:40,680 --> 01:43:42,640 Speaker 1: be fine. And if you start a crisis over it, 2027 01:43:42,640 --> 01:43:45,920 Speaker 1: well then you started the crisis, not us, And I 2028 01:43:45,960 --> 01:43:48,720 Speaker 1: hope they do that. So the concluding question, you just 2029 01:43:48,800 --> 01:43:50,800 Speaker 1: referenced this, but you know C. Jimping is up for 2030 01:43:50,840 --> 01:43:53,000 Speaker 1: his third term and you basically refer to this as 2031 01:43:53,000 --> 01:43:59,560 Speaker 1: a particularly perilous moment before that November ascension with the 2032 01:43:59,600 --> 01:44:02,880 Speaker 1: CCP party Congress, meaning he's just stort we explain like 2033 01:44:02,960 --> 01:44:08,120 Speaker 1: why this specific late July to November period is so 2034 01:44:08,280 --> 01:44:12,360 Speaker 1: really tenuous for everyone in the environment this is happening 2035 01:44:12,360 --> 01:44:15,720 Speaker 1: in To be clear, that's I'm describing that as the 2036 01:44:15,720 --> 01:44:19,519 Speaker 1: Biden administration's argument that these three months or four months 2037 01:44:19,560 --> 01:44:23,080 Speaker 1: before Jijing Ping gets his coronation, after which will essentially 2038 01:44:23,120 --> 01:44:26,519 Speaker 1: be you know, dictator for life or for another five years. Anyway, 2039 01:44:27,200 --> 01:44:30,680 Speaker 1: the realization of the Chinese Commis Party is essentially a 2040 01:44:30,680 --> 01:44:36,720 Speaker 1: one man rule state, like Putin, like like NBS, like 2041 01:44:37,080 --> 01:44:39,640 Speaker 1: Kim Jong Un. Okay, that's what we're gonna have in 2042 01:44:39,720 --> 01:44:41,839 Speaker 1: China accept the fact that they're gonna have the biggest economy, 2043 01:44:42,200 --> 01:44:45,320 Speaker 1: in the biggest military in the world. Okay, Now what 2044 01:44:45,360 --> 01:44:48,720 Speaker 1: the White House is is until that happens, they're under 2045 01:44:48,760 --> 01:44:52,919 Speaker 1: the microscope the Shijing Ping and his gang. So anything 2046 01:44:52,960 --> 01:44:54,360 Speaker 1: that they see as a slight they're gonna have to 2047 01:44:54,400 --> 01:44:57,800 Speaker 1: overreact to. That's their theory. Now what I'm saying is 2048 01:44:57,800 --> 01:45:00,519 Speaker 1: that that really doesn't matter, because I think the most 2049 01:45:00,560 --> 01:45:03,519 Speaker 1: dangerous period is after the dictator gets full power, and 2050 01:45:03,560 --> 01:45:07,320 Speaker 1: that's when Putin got really crazy, and you know, once 2051 01:45:07,400 --> 01:45:10,360 Speaker 1: he's got his third term and then where I think 2052 01:45:10,400 --> 01:45:12,800 Speaker 1: it's only gonna get worse. Actually, and if you look 2053 01:45:12,840 --> 01:45:15,439 Speaker 1: at the Taiwan situation, what the admirals say, what the 2054 01:45:15,479 --> 01:45:17,760 Speaker 1: people in the region say, is that they have the 2055 01:45:17,800 --> 01:45:20,120 Speaker 1: intent to attack. It was clear. I was in Singapore 2056 01:45:20,240 --> 01:45:23,559 Speaker 1: last month and all the Chinese generals, they're like, we're 2057 01:45:23,560 --> 01:45:27,559 Speaker 1: gonna reunify. We're not saying peacefully, we're gonna reunify. Okay, 2058 01:45:27,680 --> 01:45:29,920 Speaker 1: don't say we didn't warn you. This is your warning. 2059 01:45:29,920 --> 01:45:31,479 Speaker 1: And if you try to get in the way, we're 2060 01:45:31,479 --> 01:45:34,960 Speaker 1: gonna fight you. That's what they said. Okay, And I 2061 01:45:35,040 --> 01:45:37,040 Speaker 1: heard that, Okay, but the pack fact is they don't 2062 01:45:37,040 --> 01:45:39,840 Speaker 1: have the capability yet, and that they're gonna need a 2063 01:45:39,880 --> 01:45:41,840 Speaker 1: couple more years to get all the things in place, 2064 01:45:41,880 --> 01:45:45,120 Speaker 1: the nuclear deterrent and the landing ships and the missiles. 2065 01:45:45,120 --> 01:45:47,360 Speaker 1: And they're learning from the Ukraine War so they don't 2066 01:45:47,360 --> 01:45:50,000 Speaker 1: make Putin's mistakes. So they're siphoning up their banks and 2067 01:45:50,000 --> 01:45:54,200 Speaker 1: building walls around their economy, courting food stuffs twenty times 2068 01:45:54,240 --> 01:45:57,720 Speaker 1: the normal imports of all sorts of basic foods. Why 2069 01:45:57,760 --> 01:46:00,320 Speaker 1: are they doing that. They're preparing for something. Okay, it's 2070 01:46:00,400 --> 01:46:03,479 Speaker 1: clear as day. So it's true that the next three 2071 01:46:03,520 --> 01:46:07,240 Speaker 1: months are are a dicey, but it's not like the 2072 01:46:07,400 --> 01:46:10,200 Speaker 1: danger lifts after that and everything is honkey dory. Things 2073 01:46:10,240 --> 01:46:12,080 Speaker 1: are going to go down hell fast. And when the 2074 01:46:12,120 --> 01:46:16,280 Speaker 1: crisis in Taiwan does calm and it will come, we 2075 01:46:16,439 --> 01:46:18,960 Speaker 1: better be ready for it. And you know, I think 2076 01:46:19,280 --> 01:46:22,360 Speaker 1: we're very far from that point right now. Josh, thank 2077 01:46:22,400 --> 01:46:25,240 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us on Breaking Points. Really 2078 01:46:25,280 --> 01:46:28,679 Speaker 1: appreciate you. A quick shout out to your book, of course, 2079 01:46:29,920 --> 01:46:34,280 Speaker 1: Chaos under Heaven, now out in paperback with an exclusive 2080 01:46:34,360 --> 01:46:39,439 Speaker 1: interview with President Donald J. Trump. Check it out. Awesome. 2081 01:46:39,439 --> 01:46:44,519 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us on Breaking Points anytime. Hey, Breaking Points. 2082 01:46:44,600 --> 01:46:47,160 Speaker 1: I'm joined again by Jewels Tepak. We're here to talk 2083 01:46:47,200 --> 01:46:50,200 Speaker 1: about Instagram's big changes and why, whether or not you 2084 01:46:50,320 --> 01:46:52,759 Speaker 1: use the app or not, this is a deeply important topic. 2085 01:46:53,080 --> 01:46:57,200 Speaker 1: So Jules, let's just start here with the conversation, what 2086 01:46:57,360 --> 01:47:00,000 Speaker 1: is happening on Instagram? Why is there a back line? 2087 01:47:00,160 --> 01:47:02,320 Speaker 1: And then we'll kind of get into why this matters 2088 01:47:02,600 --> 01:47:05,400 Speaker 1: beyond just to who cares what the user experience looks 2089 01:47:05,439 --> 01:47:08,280 Speaker 1: like on this big app? Yeah, and social media is 2090 01:47:08,320 --> 01:47:10,559 Speaker 1: just a silly little thing. But yeah, So what's been 2091 01:47:10,600 --> 01:47:12,840 Speaker 1: happening at Instagram. It's been happening for the past like 2092 01:47:12,840 --> 01:47:16,559 Speaker 1: two and a half years now. Ever, since TikTok started 2093 01:47:16,600 --> 01:47:20,760 Speaker 1: taking off late twenty eighteen into twenty nineteen, Instagram has 2094 01:47:20,800 --> 01:47:23,120 Speaker 1: been trying to replicate a lot of the features on 2095 01:47:23,160 --> 01:47:25,800 Speaker 1: the platform. There was a recent update that only went 2096 01:47:25,840 --> 01:47:27,960 Speaker 1: to a certain percent of users as a test, but 2097 01:47:28,040 --> 01:47:31,360 Speaker 1: it was like a full immersive feed, so basically exactly 2098 01:47:31,400 --> 01:47:34,920 Speaker 1: like the experiencing the experience you're having on TikTok. And 2099 01:47:35,320 --> 01:47:38,040 Speaker 1: this was kind of a tipping point for outrage. This 2100 01:47:38,080 --> 01:47:41,000 Speaker 1: app now feels exactly quick pause because I want to 2101 01:47:41,200 --> 01:47:43,400 Speaker 1: make this very clear for people. So think about your 2102 01:47:43,400 --> 01:47:46,519 Speaker 1: Instagram experience, especially in using the app for the past 2103 01:47:46,760 --> 01:47:49,400 Speaker 1: ten years or so. You just scroll down and there's 2104 01:47:49,439 --> 01:47:53,599 Speaker 1: a picture, there's a picture, and then sometimes there's a video, 2105 01:47:53,960 --> 01:47:57,320 Speaker 1: there's the reels, but you're still just scrolling through. What 2106 01:47:57,400 --> 01:48:00,240 Speaker 1: does this immersive thing really look like? Folks? So what 2107 01:48:00,280 --> 01:48:04,080 Speaker 1: did these special users see? Yeah? Well, even to your point, 2108 01:48:04,120 --> 01:48:06,200 Speaker 1: so on the feed before, there was you know, a 2109 01:48:06,240 --> 01:48:08,800 Speaker 1: lot of different white space and all this type of stuff. 2110 01:48:08,800 --> 01:48:11,960 Speaker 1: This immersive feed is trying to make so the videos 2111 01:48:12,000 --> 01:48:14,679 Speaker 1: take up your entire screen as well as if a photo. 2112 01:48:15,000 --> 01:48:18,080 Speaker 1: Obviously Instagram has multiple dimensions of content in terms of 2113 01:48:18,120 --> 01:48:21,439 Speaker 1: like box photos, et cetera. Even then they will have 2114 01:48:21,560 --> 01:48:24,559 Speaker 1: like a more full screen situation where you're not seeing 2115 01:48:24,560 --> 01:48:28,400 Speaker 1: all the white space that you had previously on the platform, 2116 01:48:28,479 --> 01:48:31,360 Speaker 1: So exactly like the TikTok platform taking up your full 2117 01:48:31,360 --> 01:48:37,080 Speaker 1: phone screen. So why would a change from this scrolling 2118 01:48:37,840 --> 01:48:41,160 Speaker 1: to a full screen provoke so much backlash from big 2119 01:48:41,240 --> 01:48:44,719 Speaker 1: users and small users alike. Well, I think every platform 2120 01:48:44,760 --> 01:48:48,280 Speaker 1: has a value add right. So TikTok in the past, 2121 01:48:48,320 --> 01:48:50,960 Speaker 1: it launched in twenty eighteen. In the past four years 2122 01:48:50,960 --> 01:48:54,080 Speaker 1: it has grown to already one billion users that took 2123 01:48:54,120 --> 01:48:56,400 Speaker 1: Instagram twice as much time it took them eight years. 2124 01:48:56,840 --> 01:48:59,479 Speaker 1: And so you know, people are having an enjoyable time 2125 01:48:59,520 --> 01:49:01,879 Speaker 1: on TikTok. They're spending a lot of time on TikTok, 2126 01:49:01,960 --> 01:49:04,840 Speaker 1: more than any other social media platform. The time spent 2127 01:49:04,840 --> 01:49:06,960 Speaker 1: on app keeps going up and up. But still you 2128 01:49:07,800 --> 01:49:10,720 Speaker 1: leave a platform and go to another platform for a 2129 01:49:10,720 --> 01:49:14,080 Speaker 1: different experience, and now on Instagram, your experience, you know, 2130 01:49:14,120 --> 01:49:17,960 Speaker 1: sloppy seconds content, it's just unoriginal as well as you 2131 01:49:17,960 --> 01:49:20,519 Speaker 1: are not seeing your friend's content much anymore. It is 2132 01:49:20,600 --> 01:49:23,599 Speaker 1: more so based on a recommendation algorithm. When people utilize 2133 01:49:23,640 --> 01:49:27,000 Speaker 1: Instagram before more so for their friends, their family, and 2134 01:49:27,040 --> 01:49:29,000 Speaker 1: people that they choose to follow for you know, a 2135 01:49:29,040 --> 01:49:31,680 Speaker 1: deeper connection with that they might have discovered on other 2136 01:49:31,720 --> 01:49:34,760 Speaker 1: platforms like TikTok, like YouTube, like Twitter. They follow them 2137 01:49:34,760 --> 01:49:37,280 Speaker 1: on Instagram for you know, that deeper layer of their life. 2138 01:49:37,320 --> 01:49:40,160 Speaker 1: But now you're getting mostly fed strangers content like you 2139 01:49:40,200 --> 01:49:42,840 Speaker 1: do on other platforms, and people are not happy about 2140 01:49:42,840 --> 01:49:46,040 Speaker 1: that at all. See, it's kind of weird because Mike, 2141 01:49:46,120 --> 01:49:51,120 Speaker 1: most people my age came up when Facebook really launched. 2142 01:49:51,240 --> 01:49:54,000 Speaker 1: I stopped spending time on Facebook six years ago. I 2143 01:49:54,040 --> 01:49:57,200 Speaker 1: got a new phone. I didn't download the Facebook app 2144 01:49:57,200 --> 01:49:59,400 Speaker 1: for like a year, which is really crazy by two 2145 01:49:59,400 --> 01:50:03,040 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, st but I kept using Instagram. Instagram 2146 01:50:03,160 --> 01:50:05,479 Speaker 1: is obviously owned by Meta, so these are both Facebook products. 2147 01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:06,960 Speaker 1: But I kept using it. But I kept using it 2148 01:50:07,080 --> 01:50:10,000 Speaker 1: because I had a strong connection with my friends, with 2149 01:50:10,040 --> 01:50:13,719 Speaker 1: my family, even celebrities or brands that I had chosen 2150 01:50:13,800 --> 01:50:15,880 Speaker 1: to follow. So to your point, not just being random 2151 01:50:15,920 --> 01:50:18,920 Speaker 1: reserved up, I really liked that. But at the same time, 2152 01:50:20,080 --> 01:50:23,519 Speaker 1: if they're transitioning away from that, why would they choose 2153 01:50:23,600 --> 01:50:25,479 Speaker 1: to do that as a company? Right, They're doing this 2154 01:50:25,800 --> 01:50:29,000 Speaker 1: not out of their either their goodness or the badness 2155 01:50:29,000 --> 01:50:30,800 Speaker 1: of their heart. They're trying to make money. Why would 2156 01:50:30,840 --> 01:50:34,640 Speaker 1: it make sense to push Instagram away from the experience 2157 01:50:34,800 --> 01:50:37,360 Speaker 1: that people like me have drawn to even as we've 2158 01:50:37,400 --> 01:50:40,719 Speaker 1: abandoned Facebook. Yeah, I mean Instagram has become an archive 2159 01:50:40,760 --> 01:50:43,719 Speaker 1: of like your generation's life, my generation's life. It's one's 2160 01:50:43,880 --> 01:50:46,320 Speaker 1: early social media platforms that has stuck with us up 2161 01:50:46,360 --> 01:50:50,480 Speaker 1: until this point, like fifteen years later. So the relationship 2162 01:50:50,600 --> 01:50:53,040 Speaker 1: with Okay, wait, you might have to cut this part. 2163 01:50:53,080 --> 01:50:56,040 Speaker 1: What was the question again? Yeah, the question was why 2164 01:50:56,080 --> 01:50:58,439 Speaker 1: would they choose? Yeah, we could edit this. Why would 2165 01:50:58,479 --> 01:51:03,840 Speaker 1: they choose to push away Instagram from a user experience 2166 01:51:04,080 --> 01:51:07,320 Speaker 1: that managed to retain people, let's say, like twenty eight 2167 01:51:07,320 --> 01:51:11,679 Speaker 1: and above who'd abandoned Facebook despite coming up on the app. Yeah, 2168 01:51:11,720 --> 01:51:15,680 Speaker 1: so right now, Instagram has gotten heavily into shopping and 2169 01:51:15,840 --> 01:51:18,120 Speaker 1: over the years that has been their main focus. Their 2170 01:51:18,120 --> 01:51:20,840 Speaker 1: focus wasn't creators. As creators came up, Their focus was 2171 01:51:20,880 --> 01:51:23,679 Speaker 1: on advertisers and these companies, and they missed a big 2172 01:51:23,720 --> 01:51:26,559 Speaker 1: window of opportunity. So with that, they noticed that the 2173 01:51:26,560 --> 01:51:29,719 Speaker 1: gen z users started to heavily decline on this platform. 2174 01:51:29,760 --> 01:51:32,160 Speaker 1: Of course, when you get to one billion users, you 2175 01:51:32,200 --> 01:51:34,719 Speaker 1: can't go up like a crazy amount from there, considering 2176 01:51:34,760 --> 01:51:37,320 Speaker 1: like internet access across the world and everything like that. 2177 01:51:37,760 --> 01:51:40,200 Speaker 1: But what they're focusing on right now, and a product 2178 01:51:40,280 --> 01:51:43,120 Speaker 1: designer from Instagram had tweeted, did it tweet thread about this? 2179 01:51:43,280 --> 01:51:45,400 Speaker 1: Is that they are focusing on those twenty five and 2180 01:51:45,520 --> 01:51:49,320 Speaker 1: under and trying to gain that audience back so that 2181 01:51:49,600 --> 01:51:52,439 Speaker 1: Instagram can have longevity in the future. Because the reality 2182 01:51:52,560 --> 01:51:55,720 Speaker 1: is all these social media platforms are adding more and 2183 01:51:55,720 --> 01:51:58,040 Speaker 1: more features and they seem very similar. You know, Twitter 2184 01:51:58,080 --> 01:52:01,559 Speaker 1: is still pretty differentiated in between Instagram and TikTok. Now 2185 01:52:01,600 --> 01:52:04,240 Speaker 1: TikTok added stories the same way you know Snapchat and 2186 01:52:04,280 --> 01:52:06,880 Speaker 1: Instagram have. All these apps are kind of forming into 2187 01:52:06,880 --> 01:52:09,479 Speaker 1: each other in different ways. In reality, it's kind of 2188 01:52:09,479 --> 01:52:12,679 Speaker 1: to become ideally a super app situation. You know, China 2189 01:52:12,720 --> 01:52:15,799 Speaker 1: has a super app, they have weed Chat and apps 2190 01:52:15,840 --> 01:52:18,400 Speaker 1: like that. In the US we don't necessarily have one. 2191 01:52:18,439 --> 01:52:22,000 Speaker 1: And what a super app is is like a platform 2192 01:52:22,040 --> 01:52:25,960 Speaker 1: that can service every aspect of the consumer experience. You know, 2193 01:52:26,000 --> 01:52:30,000 Speaker 1: that's shopping, that's social, that's you know, recommendations, everything like that. 2194 01:52:30,680 --> 01:52:33,880 Speaker 1: And Instagram is kind of further ahead in that way. 2195 01:52:33,920 --> 01:52:36,320 Speaker 1: They have a wide range of features. Right now, it 2196 01:52:36,320 --> 01:52:38,400 Speaker 1: feels like an identity crisis and a mess, and it's 2197 01:52:38,400 --> 01:52:43,040 Speaker 1: making their user base elsewhere and obviously get very mad. 2198 01:52:43,320 --> 01:52:48,000 Speaker 1: So are they going to continue on this path even 2199 01:52:48,080 --> 01:52:50,639 Speaker 1: though there's been user backlash. The way to think about 2200 01:52:50,640 --> 01:52:54,960 Speaker 1: this is when Kylie Jenner wasn't happy with changes at Snapchat, 2201 01:52:55,320 --> 01:52:58,160 Speaker 1: the stock lost billions of dollars of value. They made 2202 01:52:58,200 --> 01:53:01,760 Speaker 1: a bunch of changes. Kylie wasn't with these changes either, 2203 01:53:01,880 --> 01:53:05,200 Speaker 1: but all the reporting seems to indicate they're still moving ahead. 2204 01:53:05,280 --> 01:53:09,240 Speaker 1: So what's the difference between these two situations. Yeah, So 2205 01:53:09,280 --> 01:53:12,599 Speaker 1: what the difference is is Instagram being a copycat platform 2206 01:53:12,720 --> 01:53:16,559 Speaker 1: like they have been since their origin had worked for 2207 01:53:16,600 --> 01:53:18,960 Speaker 1: them in the past. For example, in twenty thirteen, when 2208 01:53:18,960 --> 01:53:21,800 Speaker 1: they added videos to the platform. That's when like Vine 2209 01:53:21,800 --> 01:53:24,920 Speaker 1: had started about a year before, and Vine's user base 2210 01:53:25,040 --> 01:53:27,080 Speaker 1: ended up going to Instagram because people were like, oh, 2211 01:53:27,280 --> 01:53:29,240 Speaker 1: you know, it's like a one stop shop. Vine was 2212 01:53:29,280 --> 01:53:31,400 Speaker 1: kind of messy, it was a startup everything like that. 2213 01:53:31,600 --> 01:53:35,519 Speaker 1: They also took Snapchat stories put stories on Instagram and 2214 01:53:35,560 --> 01:53:37,320 Speaker 1: that took a lot of their user base and people 2215 01:53:37,320 --> 01:53:40,800 Speaker 1: were utilizing stories on Instagram rather than Snapchat. And where 2216 01:53:40,840 --> 01:53:44,720 Speaker 1: they went wrong is in I believe twenty eighteen. So 2217 01:53:45,360 --> 01:53:48,080 Speaker 1: June twenty eighteen was a pivotal moment for them because 2218 01:53:48,120 --> 01:53:50,320 Speaker 1: not only did they hit one billion users that month, 2219 01:53:50,479 --> 01:53:54,280 Speaker 1: but they also launched igtv, which is a competitor to YouTube. 2220 01:53:54,520 --> 01:53:57,160 Speaker 1: So instead of realizing that they were like the quick 2221 01:53:57,400 --> 01:54:00,160 Speaker 1: quick bit short form video content were not videocon just 2222 01:54:00,600 --> 01:54:03,880 Speaker 1: short form quick bit content in general, they tried to 2223 01:54:03,880 --> 01:54:07,000 Speaker 1: go at a competitor that was also coming up heavily 2224 01:54:07,080 --> 01:54:10,160 Speaker 1: during that time, but had an entirely different culture set 2225 01:54:10,160 --> 01:54:13,120 Speaker 1: for themselves, right, And that's where they went wrong because 2226 01:54:13,320 --> 01:54:16,160 Speaker 1: then you had TikTok in twenty eighteen launch, and they 2227 01:54:16,200 --> 01:54:19,160 Speaker 1: were kind of what Instagram really should have done, innovating 2228 01:54:19,640 --> 01:54:21,920 Speaker 1: and filling voids within the space that they were strong in, 2229 01:54:22,000 --> 01:54:24,760 Speaker 1: rather than trying to continuously copy every platform and be 2230 01:54:24,920 --> 01:54:27,600 Speaker 1: everyone all in one place. They were doing wet with 2231 01:54:27,600 --> 01:54:30,280 Speaker 1: that before again, but that's where it kind of went wrong. 2232 01:54:30,400 --> 01:54:33,640 Speaker 1: So what they're realizing now is that they there's a 2233 01:54:33,720 --> 01:54:35,600 Speaker 1: lack of innovation there. People look at them as a 2234 01:54:35,600 --> 01:54:38,120 Speaker 1: copy plat platform, and they need to reset and go 2235 01:54:38,240 --> 01:54:42,600 Speaker 1: back to their basics, which were mostly community. Shopping makes 2236 01:54:42,640 --> 01:54:46,440 Speaker 1: sense obviously, because people utilize platform utilize Instagram as a 2237 01:54:46,480 --> 01:54:50,160 Speaker 1: more high produced platform. There's more aspiration there. You're following 2238 01:54:50,160 --> 01:54:52,880 Speaker 1: people that you trust, and so shopping obviously goes hand 2239 01:54:52,920 --> 01:54:56,560 Speaker 1: in hand with that, and also curation, so something more 2240 01:54:56,600 --> 01:54:59,520 Speaker 1: similar to Pinterest and everything like that. They need to 2241 01:54:59,520 --> 01:55:01,840 Speaker 1: go back to those types of roots and be innovative 2242 01:55:01,880 --> 01:55:05,240 Speaker 1: within that realm or else they're going to use lose 2243 01:55:05,560 --> 01:55:08,400 Speaker 1: their user base right now. And LUs, of course TikTok 2244 01:55:08,400 --> 01:55:11,640 Speaker 1: ats banned, which I'm sure they are betting heavy on. Yeah, 2245 01:55:11,640 --> 01:55:14,600 Speaker 1: and that's a whole other conversation where you will almost 2246 01:55:14,640 --> 01:55:16,600 Speaker 1: certainly be happening in the next few months. But I 2247 01:55:16,600 --> 01:55:18,600 Speaker 1: think the last real question is that now I'll just 2248 01:55:18,640 --> 01:55:21,640 Speaker 1: give my reflection on it, is why does this matter? 2249 01:55:21,720 --> 01:55:23,760 Speaker 1: Like why is this not just superficial? Like my take 2250 01:55:23,800 --> 01:55:28,320 Speaker 1: on it is that social media connecting billions and billions 2251 01:55:28,360 --> 01:55:32,240 Speaker 1: of people together was huge like fifteen years ago, right, 2252 01:55:32,280 --> 01:55:35,880 Speaker 1: Like I remember the transition from MySpace to Facebook, to 2253 01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:38,800 Speaker 1: adding Instagram, to adding all those other different apps, and 2254 01:55:38,920 --> 01:55:41,360 Speaker 1: it's just become so obvious that that's just aspect of 2255 01:55:41,360 --> 01:55:43,200 Speaker 1: our lives that it really feels as if it's just 2256 01:55:43,680 --> 01:55:46,800 Speaker 1: it just happens. But the way that these apps are structured, 2257 01:55:47,080 --> 01:55:49,640 Speaker 1: the way that these apps are prioritizing different types of bits. 2258 01:55:50,160 --> 01:55:52,160 Speaker 1: Taylor Lorenz had a good piece on this. She basically 2259 01:55:52,160 --> 01:55:55,000 Speaker 1: said that, look like Instagram has a choice either it's 2260 01:55:55,040 --> 01:55:58,640 Speaker 1: for connecting you with different people or what's not that 2261 01:55:58,680 --> 01:56:00,920 Speaker 1: they have a choice. It does it connects you with 2262 01:56:00,960 --> 01:56:03,760 Speaker 1: people you know, and then it also puts stuff in 2263 01:56:03,800 --> 01:56:06,200 Speaker 1: front of you like it's TV, Like it's a form 2264 01:56:06,200 --> 01:56:09,879 Speaker 1: of media, and the decision of which direction the platform 2265 01:56:09,920 --> 01:56:12,200 Speaker 1: goes has always been intention but it seems like right 2266 01:56:12,240 --> 01:56:15,120 Speaker 1: now they're choosing much more towards the media direction, and 2267 01:56:15,240 --> 01:56:17,520 Speaker 1: I think, as most people know during the COVID period, 2268 01:56:17,760 --> 01:56:19,360 Speaker 1: this is how we interact with our friends, is how 2269 01:56:19,360 --> 01:56:21,600 Speaker 1: you keep up. This is why everyone is choking about 2270 01:56:21,600 --> 01:56:23,840 Speaker 1: how high school reunions aren't what they used to because 2271 01:56:23,880 --> 01:56:26,480 Speaker 1: everyone knows what's already happening. So I think that's like 2272 01:56:26,560 --> 01:56:28,400 Speaker 1: my take and why it matters. But what's yours to 2273 01:56:28,400 --> 01:56:31,120 Speaker 1: close this out? Yeah, I mean media sets the tone 2274 01:56:31,160 --> 01:56:33,680 Speaker 1: for all of culture. I think maybe five plus years 2275 01:56:33,680 --> 01:56:36,440 Speaker 1: ago and something like Instagram and social media in general 2276 01:56:36,480 --> 01:56:38,240 Speaker 1: could be looked at as more silly because you were 2277 01:56:38,240 --> 01:56:40,240 Speaker 1: just following like your friends and family, people you already 2278 01:56:40,280 --> 01:56:41,680 Speaker 1: knew in real life, and it was just like another 2279 01:56:41,720 --> 01:56:43,960 Speaker 1: extension of them. But as we are consuming more and 2280 01:56:43,960 --> 01:56:46,800 Speaker 1: more strangers content, it's taken a big role in our lives, 2281 01:56:46,880 --> 01:56:50,200 Speaker 1: especially since the pandemic. It's intensified our relationship with these 2282 01:56:50,240 --> 01:56:52,800 Speaker 1: platforms and it's just kind of skyrocketed from there. I 2283 01:56:52,800 --> 01:56:56,720 Speaker 1: honestly think how seriously we take conversations about the education 2284 01:56:56,800 --> 01:56:59,600 Speaker 1: system is how seriously we should take conversations about social media. 2285 01:56:59,640 --> 01:57:01,760 Speaker 1: At this point point, social media is how I learn 2286 01:57:01,800 --> 01:57:05,080 Speaker 1: all of my information. It is how I network it's 2287 01:57:05,120 --> 01:57:07,320 Speaker 1: how I get connected in my career, everything like that. 2288 01:57:07,360 --> 01:57:09,640 Speaker 1: Like it's become a second life and a second brain 2289 01:57:09,680 --> 01:57:12,240 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, an extension of obviously our 2290 01:57:12,280 --> 01:57:15,320 Speaker 1: real life. But it should be taken very, very seriously. 2291 01:57:15,360 --> 01:57:17,960 Speaker 1: And as we move towards this conversation of a super 2292 01:57:17,960 --> 01:57:20,880 Speaker 1: app and these platforms wanting to be everything for everyone, 2293 01:57:21,040 --> 01:57:25,200 Speaker 1: you know, that's very intense. That obviously incorporates our finances 2294 01:57:25,240 --> 01:57:28,200 Speaker 1: and everything like that. So these conversations aren't something to 2295 01:57:28,240 --> 01:57:30,360 Speaker 1: take lightly. Even though in the past social media was 2296 01:57:30,400 --> 01:57:32,360 Speaker 1: kind of looked at as you know, this fun, silly thing, 2297 01:57:32,440 --> 01:57:36,480 Speaker 1: it's definitely not just that anymore. Understatement of the century Jewels, 2298 01:57:36,480 --> 01:57:38,960 Speaker 1: thanks for Kim and the Selle. No doubt I'll have 2299 01:57:39,040 --> 01:57:41,320 Speaker 1: you back on next month because there'll be more TikTok 2300 01:57:41,440 --> 01:57:43,520 Speaker 1: and other sources of news and anything else that we 2301 01:57:43,760 --> 01:57:46,520 Speaker 1: would love to talk about. Thanks for coming on breaking points. 2302 01:57:46,800 --> 01:57:47,560 Speaker 1: Thank you Marshall