1 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: You speak to people who are locked up right now? Right? 2 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 2: Yeah? 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: How often would you say you're getting messages or talking 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: to people who are locked up? 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 2: I probably get around twenty cools a day from incass 6 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 2: rights to people in prison. 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: Gabby Kaplan is a journalist and documentary filmmaker. We used 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,159 Speaker 1: to work together at Vice, and she's been reporting on 9 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: the US prison system since I've known her. 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 2: Most of the time it's have you managed to look 11 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 2: at my case and do some investigation for me and 12 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 2: try and get me out? And the other fifty percent 13 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 2: of the time is just loneliness wanting to have someone 14 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: to talk to. 15 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: Being in prison means being incredibly lonely. People are cut 16 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: off from everyone they knew on the outside, friends, family, 17 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: and any community they used to know, and outside of 18 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: the occasional visit, there's not a lot of opportunity for 19 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: them to see anything familiar faces. But recently, prisons have 20 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: started introducing technology that could provide an easier option for 21 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: incarcerated people to connect with the loved ones. This new 22 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: option is electronic tablets. It never really occurred to me 23 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: that people had sanctioned technology in prisons. Really, I knew 24 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: that there were people who had snuck a phone in 25 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: or something like that. But incarcerated people have access to tablets. 26 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, so tablets. It sounds like an iPad sort of device. 27 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 2: It's much less advanced technologically than an iPad. It's a 28 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 2: very sort of old fashioned looking device. 29 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: But there is a problem with these tablets. 30 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 2: Oftentimes, these incarcerated people who have told me that they 31 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 2: felt like they had been tricked into buying these tablets 32 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 2: that couldn't do what they said they could do. 33 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts is kill Switch. I'm Dexter 34 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: Thomas Abitari. Goodbye. This is a technology show, and yet 35 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: somehow we've hardly talked at all about actual tech products. 36 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: So let's fix that. Welcome to kill Switch's first ever 37 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: tech review. The Keith Score seven features a five inch 38 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,679 Speaker 1: IPS or seven inch TN screen at a maximum resolution 39 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 1: of something approaching for ADP. It's got a two megapixel 40 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: front camera, and it's running a quad core Media Tech 41 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: eight one six seven C with one gigabyte RAM, and 42 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: it's fully updated to a customized Android eight point one. 43 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: In case those specs don't mean a lot to you. 44 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: That's a little bit worse than the Amazon Fire seven, 45 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: which debuted at fifty dollars back in twenty fifteen. This 46 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: device is not something you'd want to buy because you're 47 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: probably not the target market. The keyf Group site, which 48 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 1: is where I'm getting all this information from, really sells 49 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,679 Speaker 1: this to jail and prison administrators, saying that quote your 50 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: facility will benefit from a calmer, better behaved, a fender population, 51 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: and a safer corrections environment. End quote. But I do 52 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: want to point out a section that would interest the 53 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: end user. Under a section entitled quote connection to the outside, 54 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: it promises quote communication with loved ones using fee based text, photo, 55 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: and videogram messaging. So this connection to the outside part 56 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: is pretty important because before tablets, the tech landscape and 57 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: prisons was really basic. The only thing incarcerated people had 58 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: access to were these payphone type phones that you see 59 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: in movies and some desktop computers with very limited access 60 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: and capabilities. 61 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: So the regular sort of prison telephones are for public use. 62 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: So the telephones that you normally see in the films 63 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 2: that almost look like payphones, but they actually top up 64 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 2: through internet services, those are always available in any prison. 65 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: They also have desktops that exist in the common areas, 66 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 2: so people line up to use these quote unquote payphones 67 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: and pay to go desktops that are available to the 68 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: incarcerated population at these facilities. And with the desktops they 69 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 2: can send messages. Oftentimes they can send video messages, audio messages. 70 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: How much does it cost to make a call or 71 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: send a message or something like that, So. 72 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: It's about fifteen cents per minute to make a call 73 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: and most of these prison facilities, which doesn't sound like 74 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 2: a lot to the outside population, but when you consider 75 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 2: the fact that if one works within prison, they're earning 76 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 2: oftentimes less than a dollar an hour in order to 77 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 2: do that work, and oftentimes that's the only income that 78 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: you can earn while in prison. So either your relatives 79 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: on the outside, who may also be struggling, are providing 80 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 2: that money so that you can keep in touch with them, 81 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 2: or you're providing that money for yourself through work. But 82 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 2: you know that work is so poorly paid that it 83 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 2: wouldn't even cover a twenty minute core Wow. 84 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: So when tablets were introduced in prisons, it was monumental 85 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: for incarcerated people and their families to have an easier 86 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 1: and more reliable way to communicate with each other and 87 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: at least on the surface, that seemed like the official 88 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: reason that these institutions started to provide them. 89 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: I mean, bottom line, in carsloads of people have a 90 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 2: constitutional right to keep in touch with their loved ones 91 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 2: on the outside. We know that when instray to people 92 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 2: are able to stay in touch with their loved ones 93 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 2: behind bars, that they're much less likely to come back 94 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 2: to prison once they're being released. Keeping those ties with 95 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 2: the outside world. It gives them something to live for 96 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 2: while they're behind bars, and something to strive towards, trying 97 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 2: to get out of prison as quickly as possible so 98 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 2: that they can get home to their loved ones who 99 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 2: they'd stay in touch with every day, and then once 100 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 2: they're out, it gives them something to stay out for. 101 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: So electronic tablets were introduced in order to allow them 102 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 2: to stay in touch with their loved ones on the 103 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 2: outside when they are unable to do so through the 104 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 2: communal phones or communal desktops that are available to them. 105 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,559 Speaker 1: In the communal desktop or the communal phones, the reason 106 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: that they wouldn't be able to would be because of what. 107 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 2: Because the prison is on lockdown, either due to violence 108 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 2: or staffing shortages, or as we saw during the pandemic 109 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 2: because all the prisons were stopping visitation and didn't want 110 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: the incarcerats of people mixing with each other in the 111 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 2: communal areas, and so. 112 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: Could you could you actually define what lockdown is for 113 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: those who aren't familiar. 114 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 2: Lockdown is very similar to solitary confinement most of the time. 115 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 2: It means that all of the incarcerated people in a facility, 116 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 2: or all the incarcerats of people in a specific section 117 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,679 Speaker 2: of said facility, are restricted to their cells for twenty 118 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 2: three hours a day. They may be let out into 119 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 2: the yard for an hour a day for exercise, but 120 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 2: for the majority of the day they're locked in their 121 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: cells and they are unable to hang out in the 122 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 2: communal areas of the prison. In the past, lockdowns were 123 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 2: used for dangerous circumstances that arose in prisons, for example, 124 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: a prison riot or a massive outbreak of violence in 125 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 2: a prison. More recently, we've seen, due to the dire 126 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 2: staffing shortages in prisons across the country, that prisons have 127 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: been relying on lockdowns in order to avoid having to 128 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: navigate the incarceraids of population with very few correction officers 129 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 2: because of staffing shortages, Seeing lockdowns happen more and more frequently. 130 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: The rate of lockdowns is only increasing. In some places, 131 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: it happens more than once a month, and they can 132 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: go on for days or longer. 133 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,679 Speaker 2: Usually these lockdowns are lasting at least a few days, 134 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 2: if not a week. It must feel extremely frustrating as 135 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 2: an incarcerated person to be placed on lockdown, which is 136 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 2: normally considered a punishment and a pretty bad punishment for 137 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: bad behavior within your community. To be placed on this 138 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 2: punishment for something that is completely out of your control, 139 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 2: no incarcerator a person wants to be on lockdown. It 140 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: means that they can't communicate with the other incarcerates people. 141 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: They pretty much get no human contact while they're in 142 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 2: their cells. So I can imagine it feeling extremely unjust 143 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 2: that they are placed on this lockdown. 144 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: And so these tablets are becoming a necessity to just 145 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: fulfill an incarcerated person's constitutional right to communicate with the outside. 146 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: And this is important for society in general because count 147 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: studies show that if someone doesn't have a support system 148 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: of people who they know when they do get out, 149 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: the chances are much higher that they'll just reoffend and 150 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: end up right back in prison. But beyond communication and 151 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: their constitutional rights, these devices can also be used for entertainment, 152 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: which might sound frivolous, but, like the official advertisement for 153 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: these tablets says, this is a win win for everyone. 154 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: For facilities, it helps with behavior because it's kind of 155 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: hard for people to get into too much trouble if 156 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: they're busy watching movies. And for people who are locked up, 157 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: it's even more important just to feel sane when you're 158 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: essentially being put into solitary confinement for days on end 159 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: at random because a guard called in sick or something. 160 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 2: Providing incost rates of people with entertainment and these tablets 161 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 2: behind bars is good for everybody in the prison system. 162 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: It's good for the inconst rats of person because it 163 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 2: helps with that mental health, It helps them stay out 164 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 2: of trouble, it helps to keep them entertained while they're 165 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 2: behind bars. But it's also really good for the correction officers. 166 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 2: We've seen time and time again through research studies that 167 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 2: incarcerated people's behavior is dramatically improved having a better experience 168 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 2: behind bars, because if you're behind bars and you have 169 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 2: nothing to lose and you're having a really hard time 170 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: and the days are just dragging on. It's much harder 171 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 2: to stay well behaved and out of trouble while you're there. 172 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: But there is a catch the tablets and a lot 173 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: of the entertainment options on them. They are free, and 174 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: are these tablets handed out to everyone? Do you buy them? 175 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: How does it work? 176 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 2: In federal prisons? You have a choice whether or not 177 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 2: you want to purchase the tablet. They go for about 178 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 2: one hundred and thirteen dollars on the commissary list, and 179 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 2: some states have introduced free tablets rollout. Of course, the 180 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: tablet may be free, but the content on them is not. 181 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 2: A single music album on one of these devices can 182 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 2: cost you about forty five dollars, so they're really hefty. 183 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: Forty five dollars. 184 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, one could say that they have the prime example 185 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 2: of a captive market because there's no competition when it 186 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,599 Speaker 2: comes to being behind bars, so it's take it or 187 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 2: leave it, either you pay the forty five dollars. It's 188 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 2: kind of like when you go to the airport and 189 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: you really need a juice and they can charge really 190 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 2: high prices because there's no one else offering it. It's 191 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 2: pretty similar, but even worse because obviously they're locked up. 192 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, that that is a lot, So forty five 193 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: dollars for an album, and they can they can rent movies. 194 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, they can rent movies for like five six dollars 195 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: apiece and they have like twenty four hours to watch it. 196 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 2: And you know, this is one of the reasons that 197 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 2: there has been a lot of pushback about these tablets. 198 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 2: GTL and Securists are two of the biggest telecom services 199 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: that provide telephone services and messaging services to prisons, and 200 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 2: they are infamous for price gouging incart rated people and 201 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: their families for phone calls for electronic messages. And this 202 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 2: is just one more level of I guess one could 203 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 2: say exploitation of people behind bars for money when it 204 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 2: comes to these electronic tablets. Because when you're bored and 205 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 2: you're sat in your cellar day, you know, it sounds 206 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: really nice to have a new movie to rent and 207 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 2: watch that and let the days go by a little 208 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 2: bit faster. 209 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,599 Speaker 1: From the people you've talked to, are people more interested 210 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: in getting these tablets because they can watch movies on it, 211 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: even if it's expenses or listening to music or is 212 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: it talking to family members. 213 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's definitely talking to family members, and most of 214 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 2: the time it's the loved ones that are helping with 215 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 2: the purchasing of these tablets. And I would say ninety 216 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 2: nine percent of the people that I spoke to. Maybe 217 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: one person said that they did it for the music 218 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 2: and the movies, but every single other person I spoke 219 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 2: to said that they purchased the tablet to be able 220 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: to stay in touch with their incarcerated loved one. Little 221 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: did they know that they bought the tablets, all of 222 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: the communication capabilities would be disabled. 223 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: Remember those specs that I read from the keief group site. 224 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: These tablets have been advertised as a way for incarcerated 225 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: people to communicate with the friends or family on the outside, 226 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:21,359 Speaker 1: but in federal prisons they've shut off the communication capabilities. 227 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: But why, Well, we have answers, or at least the 228 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: official answers. We'll get into that after the break. They've 229 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 1: bought these tablets under the pretense that they're going to 230 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: be able to use it to communicate with people outside. 231 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 1: What happened? 232 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 2: So they received these tablets, they've forked out one hundred 233 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 2: and thirteen dollars for them, and they're shocked to find 234 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 2: that when they go to message their loved ones on 235 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 2: the tablets, those communication capability are restricted. 236 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: Wait a second, hold on, So we just finished talking 237 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: about the you know, the price gouging thing. So they 238 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: buy this tablet that you know, has movies that you 239 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: can rent, and it's got albums. You can buy forty 240 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: five dollars an album whatever, But okay, leave that alone. 241 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: I'm really just buying this thing so that I can 242 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: talk to my son or I can talk to my 243 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: mom or whatever the case is. And then you get 244 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: the thing and all you can do you can't do 245 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: any messaging. All you can do is, hey, the messaging 246 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: it doesn't work. But would you like this forty five 247 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: dollars album? Would you like to rent some movies for 248 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: really really expensive? 249 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 2: Right? Exactly? 250 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: That sounds like a bait and switch. 251 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, that's exactly what it is. And in cost 252 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 2: there is the people at federal facilities and their loved 253 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 2: ones are really up in arms about this, because one 254 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: hundred and thirteen dollars is not, you know, nothing for people, 255 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 2: especially people who are behind bars. 256 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: This kind of bait and switch would obviously be upsetting, 257 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: especially when go on lockdown and incarcerated people can't reach 258 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: out to the loved ones to tell them how they're 259 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: doing or what's going on. As she was doing research 260 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: on prisons, Gabby joined Facebook groups of loved ones of 261 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: incarcerated people, and when these facilities went on lockdown, she 262 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: saw how frantic people would get when. 263 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 2: There's a lockdown. There's a lot of activity that goes 264 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 2: on in these Facebook groups, and I've seen it firsthand. 265 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 2: It starts off with a post of has anyone heard 266 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: from your loved one? And then it's a string of comments, No, 267 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 2: I don't know what to do. No, I've not heard 268 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 2: from him since Thursday. No, I can't get a hold 269 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 2: of him. And this kind of mass hysteria breaks out 270 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 2: in these Facebook groups where everybody is just trying to 271 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 2: find answers and see if anybody else has managed to 272 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 2: get in touch with their loved one so that they 273 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: can confirm everything's okay and there's no massive riot or anything. 274 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 2: It's just there on lockdown due to staff hortages or something. 275 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: Right, because it could mean that somebody's not safe exactly. 276 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it could mean that a riot broke out, or 277 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 2: you know, something really terrible has happened within the prison ground. 278 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: But oftentimes it turns out to be okay. And after 279 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 2: a few days someone says, I managed to get in 280 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 2: touch with the prison administration or with my incarcerated loved one, 281 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 2: and they've told me we're all good, so don't worry. 282 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: So let me get this straight. So, if you're locked 283 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: up in a state facility and you have one of 284 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: these tablets, you're able to use the messaging functions. It 285 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: just so happens that if you're at a federal facility 286 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: you can't. That's what these are locked out of. 287 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 2: Right exactly. And the state prisons have allowed for these 288 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 2: communication capabilities all throughout the pandemic and even before so 289 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 2: the state prisons are managing just fine with having all 290 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 2: of these tablets have the communication capabilities on them, and 291 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 2: incast rays of people have spoken about the benefits that 292 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 2: that has had to their mental health and the way 293 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 2: that they're able to communicate with their loved ones. There's 294 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 2: no reason why the Bureau of Prisons shouldn't be able 295 00:16:58,080 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: to do the same. 296 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: The Bureau of Prisons is the entity that oversees the 297 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: federal prisons in the United States, and these are the 298 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: prisons that are charging one hundred and thirteen dollars per tablet, 299 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: again for a machine with worse specs than something that 300 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: costs fifty dollars back in twenty fifteen, and yet they 301 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: won't allow access to the communication features on the tablet. 302 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: Gaby wanted to know why this was happening, so she 303 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: started asking questions. 304 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 2: I reached out to the Beer of Prisons that control 305 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 2: the federal facilities across the country, and I heard back 306 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 2: from them, Yes, we don't allow for communication on the tablets. 307 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 2: They're just for entertainment purposes at this time. 308 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 1: How does that work? Because I'm trying to square that 309 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: with the stated purpose of the tablets, but also with 310 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: the Constitution. How does that work? What's the justification there? 311 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 2: So I reached out to the Beer of Prisons with 312 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 2: a number of different questions. So the first question I 313 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 2: asked was why do all federal prisons across the US 314 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 2: disable the ecommunication options on the Keith Score seven tablets. 315 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 2: The Keith Score seven tablets are the tablets that are 316 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 2: available to federally incarcerated people. Their answer to that was 317 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 2: the Federal Bureau of Prisons Trust Fund Branch works in 318 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 2: conjunction with internal stakeholders to establish a Commissary Secure Media 319 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 2: device program that is used for leisure activities with services 320 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 2: and functionality that meet the SBOP security requirements. So a 321 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 2: very back channel, long winded way of saying that they 322 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 2: have some nondescript security concerns when it comes to incarcerats 323 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 2: of people using the tablets to communicate with their lost ones. 324 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: But okay, whatever reason there might have been to turn 325 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: the messaging functions off, the question a lot of incarcerated 326 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: people were probably wanted to ask is when it would 327 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: get turned back on. So Gabby also asked that does. 328 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 2: The BOP plan to enable said communication applications. Currently, there 329 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 2: are no plans to enable the public messaging options on 330 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: Keith score seven tablets. So then I asked, what is 331 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 2: the BOP doing to ensure that during prison lockdowns inmates 332 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: can still communicate with their loved ones. Incarcerated individuals are 333 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,360 Speaker 2: encouraged to correspond with their loved ones. For information on correspondence, 334 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 2: you may see Program Statement five two sixty five one 335 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 2: four correspondents found here, and basically that section of their 336 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 2: policies relate to sending what constitutes snail mail to their 337 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 2: loved ones while on lockdown. I asked if Keith is 338 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 2: aware that marketing have said tablets do not match the 339 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 2: reality in federal prisons because they're marketed as being connected 340 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 2: to the outside world and connectors to their loved ones. 341 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 2: And of course, the BOP threw the hot potato back 342 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 2: to Keith and said the FBOP is unable to speak 343 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 2: on behalf of Keith. Any further questions regarding Keith's marketing 344 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 2: should be deferred to them. I did reach out to Keith, 345 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 2: but I never heard back. 346 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: So I'll jennifigure out why is the protocol at a 347 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: state facility so different from one at a federal facility specifically? Yeah, 348 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: seems like a very kind of arbitrary distinction here. 349 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 2: Right, So I guess one of the reasons that I 350 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 2: can think of is in a state, you have X 351 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 2: number of prisons, maybe three four prisons, and the Department 352 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 2: of Corrections for that state is in charge of those prisons. 353 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 2: Now with federal prisons, you have over fifty federal prisons 354 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 2: across the country, and the Bureau of Prisons is in 355 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 2: charge of all of those prisons. So it is a 356 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 2: fairly big federal organization, the Bureau of Prisons, but it's 357 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,959 Speaker 2: still a massive amount of facilities to be in charge of, 358 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 2: so I understand that from their perspective, it's hard to 359 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 2: manage that many prisons. And also we know that the 360 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 2: Bureau of Prisons is extremely short on money, which is 361 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 2: probably one of the reasons that they're so short staffed 362 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 2: in these federal prisons. And we know that federal prisons 363 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 2: are so short staffed at the moment. In some federal prisons, 364 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 2: they've even instituted the National Guard to try and keep 365 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 2: the peace within these prisons. So, for example, in Florida, 366 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 2: for more than two years now, the National Guard has 367 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 2: been introduced into Florida's prison system, specifically the federal prison. 368 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: Two years. 369 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there doesn't seem to be any end in sight. 370 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: So it's very possible that their reasoning for not allowing 371 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 2: these communication capabilities is true, that they are that they 372 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 2: do have security concerns because if you think about fifty prisons, 373 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 2: each one has a fairly large population that is a 374 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 2: ton of electronic tablets to be monitoring. Now, with AI 375 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 2: and stuff like that, it should be a little bit easier. 376 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 2: It doesn't take one human being looking through each message 377 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 2: before it goes. But who knows what their real reasoning is, so. 378 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: With all these security concerns, you might wonder why federal 379 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 1: prisons are providing tablets at all, especially since they aren't 380 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: helping people communicate with the outside world, which once again 381 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: is why most people are buying these things. And because 382 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: we're not getting clear answers from the Bureau of Prisons, 383 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: I don't have a clear answer for you, so we're 384 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: kind of left to wonder. And that's where it's hard 385 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: not to think of the next obvious incentive, the sales. 386 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: What cut is the Federal Bureau of Prisons getting from 387 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: that one hundred and thirteen dollars per tablet and those 388 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: forty five dollar albums. We tried asking the Bureau of 389 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: Prisons how much they're making here. We didn't get a 390 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: response in time for publishing. But even if they're not 391 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 1: taking a cut off of each individual's sale here, we 392 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: do know that there is some money coming. 393 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 2: In prisons that are providing these tablets. They have a 394 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 2: vested interest in providing them as well, because they're getting 395 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 2: massive kickbacks from the companies like GTL and Securists are 396 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 2: providing these tablets. So, for example, a prison in New 397 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 2: York got eight hundred thousand dollars for allowing these tablets 398 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: to be bought in their commentsary. 399 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,040 Speaker 1: Eight hundred thousand dollars. 400 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 2: Eight hundred thousand dollars. 401 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: For a wait hold on, for allowing the tablets to 402 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: be bought, for just putting it on the shelf, just 403 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: putting it on the shelf. So there is an incentive 404 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: to do business here. 405 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 2: There is a massive incentive on all parts when it 406 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 2: comes to the companies that provide goods and services to 407 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 2: incarcerats of people. I mean, everybody has their finger in 408 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 2: the pot when it comes to providing incarcerats of people 409 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 2: goods and services. Everybody is getting paid and everybody is. 410 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: Earning money or for vet except the people apart from. 411 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 2: The incarcerates of people. Yeah, exactly. 412 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: Coming up next the guests who I really wanted to 413 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: interview but couldn't get a hold of. That's after the break. 414 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: How did you even find out about all of this? 415 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,360 Speaker 2: I got an interesting phone call from a gentleman named 416 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 2: Jerrell who had just been moved to a federal prison 417 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 2: and was very disappointed with the fact that he couldn't 418 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 2: use his electronic tablet to communicate with his loved ones 419 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 2: in the same way that he had been able to 420 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 2: at the state facilities that he'd been at. We ended 421 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 2: up becoming penpals where he would update me on his 422 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 2: day and stuff. And one of the things that kept 423 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 2: coming up on the cause with him was that he 424 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 2: felt like he couldn't stay in touch with his loved 425 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 2: ones when they went into lockdown, and he felt that 426 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 2: was extremely. 427 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: Unjust wow, yeah, so would you just like not hear 428 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: from for days? And then he would say, yeah, I 429 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: couldn't use my messaging device here exactly. 430 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I became one of the main people that 431 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 2: he would call when he just wanted to have a 432 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 2: quick chat. And after a few days, I would notice, Huh, 433 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 2: Jerrell hasn't called me in a few days. I wonder 434 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 2: if he's okay. And sometimes Jerrell would get into some trouble, 435 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 2: so I thought maybe he might be in the shoe 436 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 2: or something, and then I would get a very frustrated 437 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 2: call from him saying, I've not been would call you 438 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 2: for four days because we've been on lockdown, and we've 439 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 2: been on lockdown because they're short staffed, not because anybody 440 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 2: did anything wrong. 441 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: Helps Jerrell doing right now. 442 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 2: I've not heard from Jarrell in about a week. I 443 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 2: have heard from his family members that he's doing okay, 444 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 2: and I had reached out to him to try and 445 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 2: get him to join us on this podcast, which I 446 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 2: know he would have loved, but currently I can't get 447 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 2: ahold of him. His relatives got a letter from him 448 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 2: saying that they're in lockdown, that he can't make phone 449 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 2: calls or messages. 450 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, because when we first talked, you were saying, you 451 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 1: know what, I think Jerrell would be down to talk 452 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: with us, and I was thinking, yeah, that'd be great. 453 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: I mean, we can get his perspective on it. But yeah, 454 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: precisely what you've been talking about has happened again, which 455 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: is just they've just gone a lockdown and he can't 456 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: use the messages on his tablet, which again defeats the 457 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: purpose of why they got. 458 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 2: The thing exactly. Yeah, and it's incredibly unfair because, like 459 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 2: I said before, the only phones and desktops that are 460 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 2: available to these people existing communal areas. So if they 461 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 2: can't access those communal areas because they're on lockdown, they 462 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 2: have no way of contacting their loved ones. They can 463 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 2: try and send written mail, but it takes a hell 464 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 2: of a long time to get to someone, and you know, 465 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 2: the prisons aren't very organized about sending them out every day, 466 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 2: and so yeah, it's really really tough. I think a 467 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 2: lot about you know, children have incarcerated people who are 468 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 2: unable to hear from their mother or father on their 469 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 2: birthday because they're on lockdown and they can't use the 470 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 2: electronic tablets. Like that child hasn't done anything wrong, so 471 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 2: it seems a little bit unfair for them to be, 472 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 2: you know, restricted from reaching out to guy loved one 473 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 2: in that way. 474 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 1: There is a third function for these tablets that we 475 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: haven't discussed yet. The need for newer technology like tablets 476 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: isn't just for talking with people back home or for entertainment. 477 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: It's also really great, crucial for when people leave the 478 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: system and need to reintegrate back into society. Technology moves 479 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: so fast now that even missing just a few years 480 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: could leave you completely confused and lost when you get out, 481 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: and this would make it really hard to say, hold 482 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: down a job and be a productive member of society. 483 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: Have you spoken to anybody who's gotten out and then 484 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: had to deal with what technology is like in the 485 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: outside world. 486 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, I have. Actually, there was an incarcerated person that 487 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 2: I was working with who had been incarcerated for about 488 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 2: fifty years. His name was Gregory. 489 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:35,400 Speaker 1: Fifty five zero. 490 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. 491 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: Wow. 492 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 2: By the time he was released, he was released on 493 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 2: compassionate release. He was struggling with cancer and he was 494 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 2: eighty seven years old, and he had never seen a 495 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 2: flat screen TV. He'd never seen an iPhone, he'd never 496 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 2: seen Wow. Cause the way that we know them now, 497 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 2: billboards that are electronic just all sorts. It kind of 498 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 2: reminds me of that scene from Georshank Redemption when he 499 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,959 Speaker 2: comes out prison and he's like, damn, everybody got themselves 500 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 2: in a big damn Harry, Like you're just stepping off 501 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 2: into a different planet. 502 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: It feels like wow. I mean, Gabby. One of the 503 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: reasons I wanted to talk to is because I think 504 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: when I tell people that I'm working on a tech podcast, 505 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: I think a lot of times the assumption is like 506 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to be reviewing the next iPhone or something 507 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: like that, or that hey, maybe I'll be talking about 508 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,719 Speaker 1: some kind of new scam or ways to protect yourself 509 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: from scams. But right now we're talking about very much 510 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: not cutting edge technology and a scam that frankly, there 511 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: is no way to protect yourself from Yeah, for sure, 512 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: because it sounds like a scam to me. Okay, let 513 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,479 Speaker 1: me take a step back and pause here, because in 514 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: that interview I'm using a pretty strong word. I call 515 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: the experience of getting these tablets disconnected a scam. But 516 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: I stand by that and think about the scenario. Let's 517 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: say I'm a tech reviewer doing a review of a 518 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: new iPhone, and I want to understand the consumer's experience. 519 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: So I walk into the local T Mobile shop and 520 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: I buy this new phone that's advertised as being able 521 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: to watch videos and make phone calls. And then a 522 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: week later, the phone call capability is shut off. I 523 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: now have half a product. I'm gonna feel scammed. The 524 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: promise made to me that the product and service would 525 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: be there was not fulfilled. I don't care who shut 526 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: it off. If it was T Mobile, if it was 527 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: Tim Cook, if it was some local government, I don't care. 528 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: It doesn't work anymore. I'm gonna feel like I've been 529 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: scammed out of hard earned money. I think the same 530 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: thing applies here. If you spend money on something, you 531 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: have the right to get what you paid for. Anything else, well. 532 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 2: It is it's an outright scam. And even when the 533 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 2: tablets work as exactly how they're supposed to, one could 534 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 2: argue they're still a scam because the price gouging is 535 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 2: so extreme and the exploitation of inconst rats to people 536 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 2: paying such a flated prices for these services on these tablets. 537 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 2: It's so extreme because they know they can't go anywhere else. 538 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 2: The whole thing is a scam one hundred percent. And 539 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:11,719 Speaker 2: I think it's interesting what you said about you know, 540 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 2: being a tech podcast, because tech really touches everybody's lives 541 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 2: and access to tech is such an indicator of success, 542 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 2: you know. So if you're a student in school and 543 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 2: you don't have access to digital learning capabilities and it's 544 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,239 Speaker 2: the pandemic and you can't go to school, you're going 545 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 2: to be left behind. And that's what's happening with these 546 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 2: incarcerated people. They are stuck in this very archaic facility 547 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 2: that looks like something from the early fifties, and most 548 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 2: of the technology that's available to them is very, very 549 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 2: old fashioned technology, and so it's not preparing them for 550 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 2: coming out and being reintroduced to the workforce or being 551 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 2: reintroduced to the world writ large. 552 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, when you put it like that, yeah, 553 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: you get out, and if you don't have access to 554 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: some semblance of what the world outside looks like and 555 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: how it functions, you're going to get out. You can't adapt. 556 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: And if you can't adapt to the outside world after 557 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: you've been locked up for five, ten, fifteen, thirty years, 558 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: what do you do? 559 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 2: Right exactly? I think so much of our lives on 560 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 2: the outside world now depend on technology, and if you 561 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 2: get out of prison and have no idea how that 562 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 2: stuff works, how even a touchscreen phone works, a smartphone works, 563 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 2: You're already being blocked out of so many different markets 564 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 2: when it comes to trying to find a job. 565 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you basically can't work a cash register 566 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: at this point, right exactly. So incarcerated people need access 567 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: to these technologies and access to the outside world. And 568 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: Gabby's hoping that her reporting will shine a light on 569 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: this problem and lead to some changes in the system. 570 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: But even if it doesn't, it's you don't means something 571 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: for the people who are on the inside. 572 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 2: I got a letter from Jirell after I wrote this 573 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 2: article for Wired, just expressing how grateful he was that 574 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 2: Wired took this story and highlighted this issue. It means 575 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 2: the absolute world to people behind bars, because even if 576 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 2: nothing changes, it just proves to them that people on 577 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 2: the outside care about them. They're not just thrown away 578 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 2: human beings that you just put to the side and 579 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 2: forget about. Like people on the outside are really caring 580 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 2: to listen to their stories, and not just the hyper 581 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 2: sensationalized stories about crime, but you know, the real things 582 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 2: that they're struggling with on a day to day basis. 583 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: What would hitting the kill switch on the situation look like. 584 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 2: Well, I hate to sound very communist and left, but 585 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,959 Speaker 2: for me, it would be the abolition of prisons as 586 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 2: a whole. I don't think that they're having a purpose. 587 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 2: Can I say that? Or is that inciting a revolution? 588 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 2: But I don't think prisons are being new in the 589 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 2: way that they were initially intended to be used, which 590 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 2: was to correct behavior and ensure that once you're out, 591 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 2: you sort of fit into our societal norms. I look 592 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 2: back at my early teen years and know that I 593 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 2: could have very easily ended up in the same position 594 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 2: as these people, be it experimenting or you know, just 595 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 2: doing things that kids do when they're you know, growing 596 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 2: up and learning and learning how to be part of society. 597 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 2: And I was very lucky to have avoided ever ending 598 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 2: up in prison. And I think if I had ever 599 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 2: ended up in the system, I probably never would have 600 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 2: gotten out of it, because you do just hop from 601 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 2: system to system, and prisons are not setting people up 602 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 2: for success to re enter society. In fact, they're putting 603 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: everything in place, not just the prison but criminal justice 604 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 2: system and society as a whole is putting everything in 605 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 2: place so that when you leave prison, you cannot get 606 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 2: a job, you cannot get housing. It pretty much leads 607 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 2: no other option but to come back to prison. And 608 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 2: we see that with the tablets too. It's not setting 609 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 2: people up to have loved ones to come back to 610 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 2: you once they leave prison, to have technology know how 611 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 2: when they leave prison so that they can go about 612 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: their lives. Like at every step of the prison process, 613 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 2: we are blocking people from being able to better themselves. 614 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: When I tell people I'm doing a technology show, the 615 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: last thing they probably expect is a review of taboleists 616 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: that are only available in jails and prisons. But technology 617 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: is around everyone everywhere, even if you're locked up, or 618 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: if someone you care about is locked up and so 619 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: for me, that is very relevant for what kill Switch 620 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 1: is doing. And I think we're still just scratching the surface. 621 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: But yeah, that is it for this one. Thank you 622 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: so much for listening to another episode of kill Switch. 623 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: Let me know what you think, and if there's something 624 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: else you'd like us to cover, you can hit us 625 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: up at kill Switch at Kaleidoscope dot NYC and on 626 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: Instagram where kill switch pod, or you can hit me 627 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: directly dex d that's d e x D I g 628 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: I on Instagram or on Blue Sky if that's more 629 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: of your thing, and if you're able to leave us 630 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: a review wherever you listen to your podcast, it really 631 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: helps other people find the show, which in turn helps 632 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: us keep doing our thing. And this thing is hosted 633 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: by me Dexter Thomas is produced by Shino Ozaki, Darluk 634 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 1: Potts and Kate Osbourne. A theme song is by me 635 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: and Kyle Murdoch, and Kyle also mixes a show from Kaleidoscope. 636 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,879 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Ozma Lashin, Mungesh Hajikadur, and Kate Osborne. 637 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: From iHeart our executive producers are Katrina Norville and Nikki E. 638 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: Tour good Bye, get you on the next one.