Speaker 1: Because you're a subscriber to this Bloomberg podcast, we thought
Speaker 1: you'd be interested in a sponsored podcast called Evolving Money,
Speaker 1: produced by Coinbase and Bloomberg Media Studios. It explores how
Speaker 1: money has changed over the centuries and whether cryptocurrency is
Speaker 1: just the next logical evolution of how we pay for
Speaker 1: things and store long term value. Here is a recent episode.
Speaker 2: Every day, billions of people share their creativity online, but
Speaker 2: when their creative work goes viral, who benefits? Imagine a
Speaker 2: young woman, a dancer with a modest social media following.
Speaker 2: One morning, she comes up with a new dance at
Speaker 2: the kitchen table and posts a video. Her followers don't
Speaker 2: just like it and scroll on. They start imitating her
Speaker 2: moves and posting their own versions of the dance, and
Speaker 2: big media channels get a ready made story by covering
Speaker 2: the viral craze. There's even a cheeky SNL skill. The
Speaker 2: platform she originally posted on is benefiting from the traffic
Speaker 2: and ad revenue, and they decide exactly how much of
Speaker 2: the pie she gets. But does it have to be
Speaker 2: that way? What if new technologies could give creators complete
Speaker 2: ownership over their content earn exponentially more money from their
Speaker 2: fans and create new revenue models, rebuilding their creator economy
Speaker 2: as we know it. Welcome to a new season of
Speaker 2: Evolving Money from Coinbase and Bloomberg Media Studios. I'm your host,
Speaker 2: Maggie Lake. On this podcast, we'll continue to take a
Speaker 2: different look at cryptocurrency. It's been cast as a radical
Speaker 2: departure for the monetary system, but what if it wasn't
Speaker 2: radical at all. This season, as we've seen more and
Speaker 2: more businesses, institutions, and consumers adopt cryptocurrency, will dive deeper
Speaker 2: into the newest applications of blockchain technology as we explore
Speaker 2: how money has changed over the centuries and look for
Speaker 2: lessons that might predict its next evolution. In this episode,
Speaker 2: we're looking at how blockchains might revolutionize how people post,
Speaker 2: interact with, and profit from original content online. Most content
Speaker 2: creators know that the handful of social media platforms who
Speaker 2: distribute their work have enormous power over how much they earn.
Speaker 2: This isn't a new problem. Artists and thinkers have always
Speaker 2: had to deal with gatekeepers fighting for the right to
Speaker 2: own their work and its proceeds. But can blockchain technology
Speaker 2: really disrupt the walled garden landscape that shapes the flow
Speaker 2: of art, ideas and money in the twenty first century.
Speaker 2: To find out, I'll talk to Jesse Pollock, creator of Base,
Speaker 2: and Julian Holgan, CEO of the Web three entertainment company Doodles,
Speaker 2: two leaders who are charting a new path forward by
Speaker 2: bringing creativity and content on chain. Let's go way back
Speaker 2: to sixteen ninety four. Perched at his desk writing a
Speaker 2: protest letter by cat Handlelight is philosopher John Locke. You
Speaker 2: remember him from history class. Locke's been wanting to publish
Speaker 2: his writing on religion, but he's been blocked from doing it.
Speaker 2: You see, after the invention of the printing press, a
Speaker 2: single group controls all publishing in England, the Worshipful Company
Speaker 2: of Stationers.
Speaker 3: What a name, right. The Stationers are everybody who's involved
Speaker 3: in the making and distribution and sale of books, so printers, binders,
Speaker 3: type founders, the people who sell the books of the public.
Speaker 2: That's doctor Adrian Johns. He chairs the history department at
Speaker 2: the University of Chicago, specializing in the histories of science,
Speaker 2: the book, media, and information. This group of publishers, the Stationers,
Speaker 2: have a royal warrant to print and this warrant protects
Speaker 2: the stationers from competition.
Speaker 3: It was essentially a monopoly, a kind of cartel that
Speaker 3: looked after the whole trade.
Speaker 2: Locke is one of the loudest voices in a chorus
Speaker 2: of thinkers, writers and printers calling for an end to
Speaker 2: the stationer's monopoly, and eventually, in sixteen ninety five, the
Speaker 2: Crown lets its royal warrant with the stationers expire.
Speaker 3: When that act lapses, there's no legal sanctuary more against
Speaker 3: pirating books. It's a kind of golden age for literary piracy.
Speaker 3: So whatever you write is free game for anybody.
Speaker 2: This period of anarchy lasts for about fifteen years until
Speaker 2: seventeen ten, when Parliament passes a new act, the Statute
Speaker 2: of Anne. Now, if any other person who isn't explicitly
Speaker 2: approved by the author to print or reprint their work
Speaker 2: tries to reproduce it, the author can basically say hey, stop,
Speaker 2: that's mine and ask a court for an injunction. This was,
Speaker 2: in essence the birth of copyright law. Sounds like a
Speaker 2: big improvement, right, but the publishers respond by forming cartels
Speaker 2: called congers to reclaim their power.
Speaker 3: In practice, if you have to tow biggest publishers in
Speaker 3: London all collaborating on this. They have enormous power, so
Speaker 3: de facto, these congers kind of act to preserve the
Speaker 3: same kinds of rights that the station as company had
Speaker 3: always registered before.
Speaker 2: So the vast majority of writers still don't have real
Speaker 2: control over how their works are made public or what
Speaker 2: they'll earn from their ideas. The same dynamic continues in
Speaker 2: some form to this day.
Speaker 3: So we've seen notoriously, through various mergers and so forth,
Speaker 3: the development of sort of super media firms that hold
Speaker 3: the publishing houses together. This idea that the commanding heights
Speaker 3: of the literary culture are held by a relatively small
Speaker 3: number of very powerful commercial operations. You know, it feels
Speaker 3: a little bit uncomfortably like we're back to that.
Speaker 2: As the world has moved online, so have the same
Speaker 2: issues around consolidated power and ownership rights that have plagued
Speaker 2: creators for quite literally centuries.
Speaker 4: I think if you look at the last twenty years,
Speaker 4: with the creation of the Internet, we've seen the emergence
Speaker 4: of these incredible platforms that have connected people all around
Speaker 4: the world.
Speaker 2: That's Jesse Pollock, VP of Engineering at coinbase and creator of.
Speaker 4: Base, but I think at the same time, one of
Speaker 4: the big challenges has been that as people have brought
Speaker 4: their creativity online, they've predominantly brought it into these platforms
Speaker 4: that they don't control.
Speaker 2: Our own Base is a platform that people can use
Speaker 2: to build all kinds of apps with blockchain technology. Jesse
Speaker 2: told me he created the platform because he wanted to
Speaker 2: help content creators and small businesses take true ownership of
Speaker 2: their work by building more direct relationships with fans and
Speaker 2: customers and deciding how to earn money through those connections.
Speaker 4: So let's say you're creator and you make a video.
Speaker 4: You take your video, you put it on a platform,
Speaker 4: and then it gets distributed kind of based on an
Speaker 4: algorithm that you can't see or understand. You get paid
Speaker 4: whatever that platform decides to pay you, which is a
Speaker 4: total black box.
Speaker 2: But if you're a web creator, it's not like there's
Speaker 2: much choice, and.
Speaker 4: If you say, hey, I want to take my distribution
Speaker 4: somewhere else, you don't actually have that option. You are
Speaker 4: stuck in the existing system.
Speaker 2: And so the creator is left making whatever money the
Speaker 2: platform offers them. Jesse estimates it's about five percent, and
Speaker 2: the platform keeps the rest. Then the creator has to
Speaker 2: pay transaction fees and phase delays in getting paid.
Speaker 4: And that's a thing that I think just in the
Speaker 4: last few years, people are waking up to as they see, Oh,
Speaker 4: I feel like I'm getting scraps when these corporations are
Speaker 4: making hundreds of billions of dollars. And I think that
Speaker 4: collective awakening is kind of bringing us to a new
Speaker 4: moment where we're realizing, Hey, maybe we need better tools,
Speaker 4: maybe we need better platforms, and maybe we need a
Speaker 4: better internet that actually puts creators first.
Speaker 2: That phrase a better internet, Jesse means that literally. He
Speaker 2: thinks that blockchain platforms can the essential tools for communication, purchases,
Speaker 2: and analytics outside the walled gardens of today's social media.
Speaker 2: This wouldn't just shift the places where content goes viral,
Speaker 2: it would also shift where people make money and how
Speaker 2: new revenue models can take off. I asked Jesse to
Speaker 2: walk me through this transition, starting with the difference between
Speaker 2: going online to going on chain. So what do you
Speaker 2: mean when you say on chain?
Speaker 4: On chain is the next generation of the Internet that's
Speaker 4: built on blockchains like base and it's a powerful internet
Speaker 4: where everyone everywhere has the same access and it is
Speaker 4: on a level playing field where they're able to build
Speaker 4: and use new apps that are ten x better.
Speaker 2: So how will that look? What change will that mean
Speaker 2: for creators When it comes to things like owning my
Speaker 2: art and getting paid for it and reaching my audience.
Speaker 4: You do the exact same thing. You take your music,
Speaker 4: you take your video, and you put it on chain,
Speaker 4: but now all of the algorithms are open, so you
Speaker 4: can actually understand what's going to lead to more distribution
Speaker 4: versus less distribution. And if you want to take your
Speaker 4: network to another app because you're excited about trying something new,
Speaker 4: you can just take it with you because it's yours.
Speaker 2: So the creator retains control over the distribution and monetization
Speaker 2: of their work. And as more creators see that benefit
Speaker 2: and take their work on chain, the enormous slice of
Speaker 2: revenue that they're used to handing over to social media
Speaker 2: platforms could fuel a new network of businesses.
Speaker 4: That network that you're distributing to is not controlled by
Speaker 4: one company. It's open and accessible to everyone who wants
Speaker 4: to build on it. And so what that means is
Speaker 4: we're actually going to have a Cambrian explosion of people
Speaker 4: who are building on that graph and that network and
Speaker 4: it's a new Internet that's going to put creators, musicians, videographers,
Speaker 4: small businesses first, and going to make it so businesses
Speaker 4: have to serve and have to help them be successful
Speaker 4: on a new open platform where everyone can win.
Speaker 2: The musician example caught my ear because I'm always keeping
Speaker 2: tabs on my favorite artist and trying to see if
Speaker 2: I can catch them at a live show. Jesse showed
Speaker 2: me how my relationship to my favorite artists could be
Speaker 2: much more personalized if each step were brought on chain.
Speaker 4: I think the thing that's really powerful about the new
Speaker 4: on chain platform is that these creators, these musicians, they
Speaker 4: can actually build a deeper relationship with the people who
Speaker 4: care most about them. Because those folks are going to
Speaker 4: be able to have a relationship where they say, hey,
Speaker 4: I want to support you, and I'm going to mince
Speaker 4: your song, and then that's going to be this kind
Speaker 4: of like historical record of how I participated with you
Speaker 4: in a new platform, and that record is going to
Speaker 4: span across everything that you do.
Speaker 2: Say I buy an album, then buy some merch then
Speaker 2: watch their live stream. If this all happens on chain,
Speaker 2: the artists will be able to directly track all all
Speaker 2: of those interactions between us across any app and use
Speaker 2: that to personalize or deepen our relationship.
Speaker 4: The artists are then going to be able to look
Speaker 4: across all that and say, oh, here are the people
Speaker 4: who've listened to me on this app and that app
Speaker 4: and showed up at my show, And now I'm going
Speaker 4: to say, okay, let's give them a targeted experience. For instance,
Speaker 4: let's make it so that they can be first in
Speaker 4: line for purchasing.
Speaker 2: Tickets, or the artists could send me personalized messages, exclusive
Speaker 2: set lists, or invite me to a post show meet
Speaker 2: up with other super fans.
Speaker 4: With this new on chain infrastructure, we're actually going to
Speaker 4: be able to build more customized, more human, more direct
Speaker 4: experiences that let artists and creators reach their most important,
Speaker 4: most connected fans, give them better experiences, which will make
Speaker 4: that relationship deeper and really be a win win for
Speaker 4: both the creative side and the consumption side.
Speaker 2: This new on chain world isn't just theoretical. It's here now.
Speaker 5: We believe that we're building a next generation entertainment company.
Speaker 2: That's Julian Holgan as the president of Billboard, he transformed
Speaker 2: that brand from a music trade magazine to an international
Speaker 2: multiplatform experience.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 2: Julian is the CEO of Doodles, a digital entertainment platform
Speaker 2: that's built entirely on Chain.
Speaker 5: We're basically what a modern day cartoon franchise might look like.
Speaker 5: We make short films, We make original music. Those often
Speaker 5: come with music videos, animated music videos. We do digital comics,
Speaker 5: illustrated posters. We really use humor in all of our content.
Speaker 2: But Doodles is also a social community in the Doodles universe.
Speaker 2: When users sign up, they create a digital avatar, a Doodle,
Speaker 2: which they can customize however they want. Because the avatar
Speaker 2: is on chain, it's completely unique to the user.
Speaker 5: People use avatars to communicate constantly. They make gifts, they
Speaker 5: make stickers, they make short form animations. And what we're
Speaker 5: basically letting people do is take our ip our brand
Speaker 5: customize it to fit whatever they want their digital likeness
Speaker 5: to be.
Speaker 2: That avatar also has something Julian calls a collector's profile,
Speaker 2: where they can pay for videos, illustrations, and animations from
Speaker 2: the Doodle's universe, so they get to create a permanent
Speaker 2: identity and show off their fandom with content they truly own.
Speaker 2: Doodles recently collaborated with Pharrell Williams and Lil Wayne to
Speaker 2: produce Project Gray, a short film hosted on the Doodles Network.
Speaker 5: A twenty minute short film that would ultimately set the
Speaker 5: foundation for all the storytelling that we wanted to do
Speaker 5: in our universe.
Speaker 2: During the making of Project Gray, Doodles included some of
Speaker 2: its users on chain avatars. In the actual film.
Speaker 5: They can say to their friends and family like Hey,
Speaker 5: I'm in a Pharrell music video, Like this is a
Speaker 5: really kind of novel concept that doesn't exist in any
Speaker 5: other form of media.
Speaker 2: That moment pointed to the future of immersive content where
Speaker 2: every viewer had a concrete stake in the story they
Speaker 2: were watching. The film ended up premiering at the twenty
Speaker 2: twenty four Toronto International Film Festival.
Speaker 5: The audience they were blown away, like there were people crying,
Speaker 5: There were people like that. It gave them chills because
Speaker 5: it's truly becoming a community, it's truly becoming part of
Speaker 5: the IP and the brand versus just a passive participant.
Speaker 2: Doodles posted the short film on YouTube for everyone to see,
Speaker 2: like all of its original content, but Doodles also allowed
Speaker 2: people to buy tickets for the film on chain and
Speaker 2: users could add the film to their collectors' profiles. In
Speaker 2: the end, they sold more than fifty thousand tickets.
Speaker 5: And that concept right there is unheard of for most creators. Wait,
Speaker 5: you can sell content and people want to own that content.
Speaker 5: They're willing to pay you a dollar fifty cents thirty
Speaker 5: cents to own collect that And the answer is yes.
Speaker 5: And I think the more and more people start learning
Speaker 5: about distributing content on chain, the more people are going
Speaker 5: to be drawn to it. And a lot of that
Speaker 5: really boils down to how can you have fun with
Speaker 5: your friends on the internet.
Speaker 2: Going on chain can give economic power back to creators
Speaker 2: and help them create stronger relationships with their fans. And
Speaker 2: this community building aspect of the technology goes beyond the
Speaker 2: digital economy. Like, if you're dining out in New York
Speaker 2: City anytime soon, you could check out an on chain
Speaker 2: app called Blackbird. Here's coinbase is Jesse Pollock.
Speaker 4: Again, they're building a new product on chain that lets
Speaker 4: restaurants build that more direct relationship with customers.
Speaker 2: Blackbird is kind of like a traditional dining rewards program,
Speaker 2: but by going on chain, the app gives restaurants a direct,
Speaker 2: transparent connection with every customer who's using it to make
Speaker 2: a reservation, check in, or pay for their meal.
Speaker 4: So when a customer goes in they just tap their phone.
Speaker 4: The restaurant now knows who they are, they can kind
Speaker 4: of customize the experience around them.
Speaker 2: This creates an easy to see history for every Blackbird
Speaker 2: customer at the restaurant, a personal profile that follows every
Speaker 2: interaction you have, which really matters to restaurants who thrive
Speaker 2: on building a community of local diners.
Speaker 4: And then over time, as you show up more, you're
Speaker 4: actually building kind of who you are, what you love,
Speaker 4: which you can then choose to also take to other restaurants,
Speaker 4: which means you're going to have a more intimate experience
Speaker 4: at every next restaurant that you show up at. There's
Speaker 4: now hundreds of restaurants in New York City that are
Speaker 4: using this platform to make it so that they can
Speaker 4: have more direct relationship with their customers.
Speaker 2: Companies like Blackbird and Doodles are trailblazers today, but as
Speaker 2: more businesses create closer relationships with their customers by going
Speaker 2: on chain, these kinds of apps could become the new normal.
Speaker 4: And so what I think we're starting to see right
Speaker 4: now is almost this exponential ramp where people are seeing
Speaker 4: whoa this thing is new and it might look small
Speaker 4: right now, but if I opt into it, I can
Speaker 4: live a better life for my small business, for my music,
Speaker 4: for my art, from my day to day living as
Speaker 4: a consumer in the American or global economy. And I
Speaker 4: think as more people see that, we'll kind of see
Speaker 4: this transformation where the world shifts from online to on chain.
Speaker 4: And it won't happen overnight, but it will accelerate faster
Speaker 4: and faster and faster until the entire world's on chain.
Speaker 2: In eighteenth century England, publishers did everything they could to
Speaker 2: maintain control and profit off author's original works. These guys
Speaker 2: were classic gatekeepers, setting the rules for how ideas and
Speaker 2: voices could be heard. Centuries later, we're still living with
Speaker 2: that model. But every time a prolific writer, or a
Speaker 2: local business or any of us goes on chain, we
Speaker 2: could be ushering in a new era in history where
Speaker 2: there's no gate, no wall that keeps creators from having
Speaker 2: control over their work, earning money from their fans, and
Speaker 2: growing with the community that matters most to them. Thank
Speaker 2: you to Adrian Johns, Jesse Pollock, and Julian Hogan. This
Speaker 2: is Evolving Money, a podcast from Coinbase and Bloomberg Media Studios.
Speaker 2: If you like what you hear, subscribe and leave us
Speaker 2: a review. I'm Maggie Lake. Thanks for listening.