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Speaker 1: Because you're a subscriber to this Bloomberg podcast, we thought

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Speaker 1: you'd be interested in a sponsored podcast called Evolving Money,

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Speaker 1: produced by Coinbase and Bloomberg Media Studios. It explores how

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Speaker 1: money has changed over the centuries and whether cryptocurrency is

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Speaker 1: just the next logical evolution of how we pay for

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Speaker 1: things and store long term value. Here is a recent episode.

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Speaker 2: Every day, billions of people share their creativity online, but

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Speaker 2: when their creative work goes viral, who benefits? Imagine a

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Speaker 2: young woman, a dancer with a modest social media following.

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Speaker 2: One morning, she comes up with a new dance at

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Speaker 2: the kitchen table and posts a video. Her followers don't

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Speaker 2: just like it and scroll on. They start imitating her

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Speaker 2: moves and posting their own versions of the dance, and

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Speaker 2: big media channels get a ready made story by covering

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Speaker 2: the viral craze. There's even a cheeky SNL skill. The

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Speaker 2: platform she originally posted on is benefiting from the traffic

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Speaker 2: and ad revenue, and they decide exactly how much of

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Speaker 2: the pie she gets. But does it have to be

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Speaker 2: that way? What if new technologies could give creators complete

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Speaker 2: ownership over their content earn exponentially more money from their

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Speaker 2: fans and create new revenue models, rebuilding their creator economy

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Speaker 2: as we know it. Welcome to a new season of

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Speaker 2: Evolving Money from Coinbase and Bloomberg Media Studios. I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Maggie Lake. On this podcast, we'll continue to take a

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Speaker 2: different look at cryptocurrency. It's been cast as a radical

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Speaker 2: departure for the monetary system, but what if it wasn't

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Speaker 2: radical at all. This season, as we've seen more and

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Speaker 2: more businesses, institutions, and consumers adopt cryptocurrency, will dive deeper

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Speaker 2: into the newest applications of blockchain technology as we explore

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Speaker 2: how money has changed over the centuries and look for

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Speaker 2: lessons that might predict its next evolution. In this episode,

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Speaker 2: we're looking at how blockchains might revolutionize how people post,

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Speaker 2: interact with, and profit from original content online. Most content

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Speaker 2: creators know that the handful of social media platforms who

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Speaker 2: distribute their work have enormous power over how much they earn.

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Speaker 2: This isn't a new problem. Artists and thinkers have always

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Speaker 2: had to deal with gatekeepers fighting for the right to

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Speaker 2: own their work and its proceeds. But can blockchain technology

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Speaker 2: really disrupt the walled garden landscape that shapes the flow

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Speaker 2: of art, ideas and money in the twenty first century.

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Speaker 2: To find out, I'll talk to Jesse Pollock, creator of Base,

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Speaker 2: and Julian Holgan, CEO of the Web three entertainment company Doodles,

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Speaker 2: two leaders who are charting a new path forward by

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Speaker 2: bringing creativity and content on chain. Let's go way back

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Speaker 2: to sixteen ninety four. Perched at his desk writing a

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Speaker 2: protest letter by cat Handlelight is philosopher John Locke. You

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Speaker 2: remember him from history class. Locke's been wanting to publish

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Speaker 2: his writing on religion, but he's been blocked from doing it.

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Speaker 2: You see, after the invention of the printing press, a

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Speaker 2: single group controls all publishing in England, the Worshipful Company

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Speaker 2: of Stationers.

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Speaker 3: What a name, right. The Stationers are everybody who's involved

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Speaker 3: in the making and distribution and sale of books, so printers, binders,

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Speaker 3: type founders, the people who sell the books of the public.

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Speaker 2: That's doctor Adrian Johns. He chairs the history department at

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Speaker 2: the University of Chicago, specializing in the histories of science,

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Speaker 2: the book, media, and information. This group of publishers, the Stationers,

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Speaker 2: have a royal warrant to print and this warrant protects

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Speaker 2: the stationers from competition.

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Speaker 3: It was essentially a monopoly, a kind of cartel that

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Speaker 3: looked after the whole trade.

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Speaker 2: Locke is one of the loudest voices in a chorus

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Speaker 2: of thinkers, writers and printers calling for an end to

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Speaker 2: the stationer's monopoly, and eventually, in sixteen ninety five, the

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Speaker 2: Crown lets its royal warrant with the stationers expire.

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Speaker 3: When that act lapses, there's no legal sanctuary more against

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Speaker 3: pirating books. It's a kind of golden age for literary piracy.

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Speaker 3: So whatever you write is free game for anybody.

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Speaker 2: This period of anarchy lasts for about fifteen years until

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Speaker 2: seventeen ten, when Parliament passes a new act, the Statute

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Speaker 2: of Anne. Now, if any other person who isn't explicitly

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Speaker 2: approved by the author to print or reprint their work

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Speaker 2: tries to reproduce it, the author can basically say hey, stop,

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Speaker 2: that's mine and ask a court for an injunction. This was,

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Speaker 2: in essence the birth of copyright law. Sounds like a

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Speaker 2: big improvement, right, but the publishers respond by forming cartels

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Speaker 2: called congers to reclaim their power.

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Speaker 3: In practice, if you have to tow biggest publishers in

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Speaker 3: London all collaborating on this. They have enormous power, so

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Speaker 3: de facto, these congers kind of act to preserve the

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Speaker 3: same kinds of rights that the station as company had

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Speaker 3: always registered before.

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Speaker 2: So the vast majority of writers still don't have real

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Speaker 2: control over how their works are made public or what

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Speaker 2: they'll earn from their ideas. The same dynamic continues in

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Speaker 2: some form to this day.

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Speaker 3: So we've seen notoriously, through various mergers and so forth,

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Speaker 3: the development of sort of super media firms that hold

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Speaker 3: the publishing houses together. This idea that the commanding heights

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Speaker 3: of the literary culture are held by a relatively small

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Speaker 3: number of very powerful commercial operations. You know, it feels

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Speaker 3: a little bit uncomfortably like we're back to that.

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Speaker 2: As the world has moved online, so have the same

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Speaker 2: issues around consolidated power and ownership rights that have plagued

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Speaker 2: creators for quite literally centuries.

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Speaker 4: I think if you look at the last twenty years,

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Speaker 4: with the creation of the Internet, we've seen the emergence

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Speaker 4: of these incredible platforms that have connected people all around

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Speaker 4: the world.

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Speaker 2: That's Jesse Pollock, VP of Engineering at coinbase and creator of.

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Speaker 4: Base, but I think at the same time, one of

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Speaker 4: the big challenges has been that as people have brought

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Speaker 4: their creativity online, they've predominantly brought it into these platforms

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Speaker 4: that they don't control.

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Speaker 2: Our own Base is a platform that people can use

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Speaker 2: to build all kinds of apps with blockchain technology. Jesse

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Speaker 2: told me he created the platform because he wanted to

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Speaker 2: help content creators and small businesses take true ownership of

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Speaker 2: their work by building more direct relationships with fans and

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Speaker 2: customers and deciding how to earn money through those connections.

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Speaker 4: So let's say you're creator and you make a video.

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Speaker 4: You take your video, you put it on a platform,

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Speaker 4: and then it gets distributed kind of based on an

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Speaker 4: algorithm that you can't see or understand. You get paid

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Speaker 4: whatever that platform decides to pay you, which is a

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Speaker 4: total black box.

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Speaker 2: But if you're a web creator, it's not like there's

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Speaker 2: much choice, and.

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Speaker 4: If you say, hey, I want to take my distribution

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Speaker 4: somewhere else, you don't actually have that option. You are

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Speaker 4: stuck in the existing system.

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Speaker 2: And so the creator is left making whatever money the

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Speaker 2: platform offers them. Jesse estimates it's about five percent, and

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Speaker 2: the platform keeps the rest. Then the creator has to

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Speaker 2: pay transaction fees and phase delays in getting paid.

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Speaker 4: And that's a thing that I think just in the

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Speaker 4: last few years, people are waking up to as they see, Oh,

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Speaker 4: I feel like I'm getting scraps when these corporations are

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Speaker 4: making hundreds of billions of dollars. And I think that

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Speaker 4: collective awakening is kind of bringing us to a new

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Speaker 4: moment where we're realizing, Hey, maybe we need better tools,

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Speaker 4: maybe we need better platforms, and maybe we need a

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Speaker 4: better internet that actually puts creators first.

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Speaker 2: That phrase a better internet, Jesse means that literally. He

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Speaker 2: thinks that blockchain platforms can the essential tools for communication, purchases,

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Speaker 2: and analytics outside the walled gardens of today's social media.

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Speaker 2: This wouldn't just shift the places where content goes viral,

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Speaker 2: it would also shift where people make money and how

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Speaker 2: new revenue models can take off. I asked Jesse to

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Speaker 2: walk me through this transition, starting with the difference between

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Speaker 2: going online to going on chain. So what do you

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Speaker 2: mean when you say on chain?

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Speaker 4: On chain is the next generation of the Internet that's

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Speaker 4: built on blockchains like base and it's a powerful internet

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Speaker 4: where everyone everywhere has the same access and it is

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Speaker 4: on a level playing field where they're able to build

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Speaker 4: and use new apps that are ten x better.

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Speaker 2: So how will that look? What change will that mean

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Speaker 2: for creators When it comes to things like owning my

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Speaker 2: art and getting paid for it and reaching my audience.

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Speaker 4: You do the exact same thing. You take your music,

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Speaker 4: you take your video, and you put it on chain,

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Speaker 4: but now all of the algorithms are open, so you

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Speaker 4: can actually understand what's going to lead to more distribution

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Speaker 4: versus less distribution. And if you want to take your

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Speaker 4: network to another app because you're excited about trying something new,

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Speaker 4: you can just take it with you because it's yours.

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Speaker 2: So the creator retains control over the distribution and monetization

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Speaker 2: of their work. And as more creators see that benefit

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Speaker 2: and take their work on chain, the enormous slice of

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Speaker 2: revenue that they're used to handing over to social media

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Speaker 2: platforms could fuel a new network of businesses.

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Speaker 4: That network that you're distributing to is not controlled by

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Speaker 4: one company. It's open and accessible to everyone who wants

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Speaker 4: to build on it. And so what that means is

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Speaker 4: we're actually going to have a Cambrian explosion of people

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Speaker 4: who are building on that graph and that network and

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Speaker 4: it's a new Internet that's going to put creators, musicians, videographers,

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Speaker 4: small businesses first, and going to make it so businesses

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Speaker 4: have to serve and have to help them be successful

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Speaker 4: on a new open platform where everyone can win.

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Speaker 2: The musician example caught my ear because I'm always keeping

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Speaker 2: tabs on my favorite artist and trying to see if

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Speaker 2: I can catch them at a live show. Jesse showed

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Speaker 2: me how my relationship to my favorite artists could be

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Speaker 2: much more personalized if each step were brought on chain.

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Speaker 4: I think the thing that's really powerful about the new

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Speaker 4: on chain platform is that these creators, these musicians, they

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Speaker 4: can actually build a deeper relationship with the people who

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Speaker 4: care most about them. Because those folks are going to

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Speaker 4: be able to have a relationship where they say, hey,

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Speaker 4: I want to support you, and I'm going to mince

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Speaker 4: your song, and then that's going to be this kind

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Speaker 4: of like historical record of how I participated with you

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Speaker 4: in a new platform, and that record is going to

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Speaker 4: span across everything that you do.

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Speaker 2: Say I buy an album, then buy some merch then

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Speaker 2: watch their live stream. If this all happens on chain,

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Speaker 2: the artists will be able to directly track all all

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Speaker 2: of those interactions between us across any app and use

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Speaker 2: that to personalize or deepen our relationship.

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Speaker 4: The artists are then going to be able to look

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Speaker 4: across all that and say, oh, here are the people

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Speaker 4: who've listened to me on this app and that app

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Speaker 4: and showed up at my show, And now I'm going

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Speaker 4: to say, okay, let's give them a targeted experience. For instance,

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Speaker 4: let's make it so that they can be first in

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Speaker 4: line for purchasing.

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Speaker 2: Tickets, or the artists could send me personalized messages, exclusive

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Speaker 2: set lists, or invite me to a post show meet

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Speaker 2: up with other super fans.

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Speaker 4: With this new on chain infrastructure, we're actually going to

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Speaker 4: be able to build more customized, more human, more direct

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Speaker 4: experiences that let artists and creators reach their most important,

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Speaker 4: most connected fans, give them better experiences, which will make

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Speaker 4: that relationship deeper and really be a win win for

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Speaker 4: both the creative side and the consumption side.

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Speaker 2: This new on chain world isn't just theoretical. It's here now.

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Speaker 5: We believe that we're building a next generation entertainment company.

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Speaker 2: That's Julian Holgan as the president of Billboard, he transformed

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Speaker 2: that brand from a music trade magazine to an international

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Speaker 2: multiplatform experience.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 2: Julian is the CEO of Doodles, a digital entertainment platform

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Speaker 2: that's built entirely on Chain.

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Speaker 5: We're basically what a modern day cartoon franchise might look like.

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Speaker 5: We make short films, We make original music. Those often

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Speaker 5: come with music videos, animated music videos. We do digital comics,

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Speaker 5: illustrated posters. We really use humor in all of our content.

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Speaker 2: But Doodles is also a social community in the Doodles universe.

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Speaker 2: When users sign up, they create a digital avatar, a Doodle,

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Speaker 2: which they can customize however they want. Because the avatar

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Speaker 2: is on chain, it's completely unique to the user.

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Speaker 5: People use avatars to communicate constantly. They make gifts, they

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Speaker 5: make stickers, they make short form animations. And what we're

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Speaker 5: basically letting people do is take our ip our brand

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Speaker 5: customize it to fit whatever they want their digital likeness

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Speaker 5: to be.

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Speaker 2: That avatar also has something Julian calls a collector's profile,

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Speaker 2: where they can pay for videos, illustrations, and animations from

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Speaker 2: the Doodle's universe, so they get to create a permanent

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Speaker 2: identity and show off their fandom with content they truly own.

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Speaker 2: Doodles recently collaborated with Pharrell Williams and Lil Wayne to

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Speaker 2: produce Project Gray, a short film hosted on the Doodles Network.

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Speaker 5: A twenty minute short film that would ultimately set the

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Speaker 5: foundation for all the storytelling that we wanted to do

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Speaker 5: in our universe.

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Speaker 2: During the making of Project Gray, Doodles included some of

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Speaker 2: its users on chain avatars. In the actual film.

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Speaker 5: They can say to their friends and family like Hey,

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Speaker 5: I'm in a Pharrell music video, Like this is a

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Speaker 5: really kind of novel concept that doesn't exist in any

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Speaker 5: other form of media.

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Speaker 2: That moment pointed to the future of immersive content where

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Speaker 2: every viewer had a concrete stake in the story they

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Speaker 2: were watching. The film ended up premiering at the twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four Toronto International Film Festival.

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Speaker 5: The audience they were blown away, like there were people crying,

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Speaker 5: There were people like that. It gave them chills because

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Speaker 5: it's truly becoming a community, it's truly becoming part of

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Speaker 5: the IP and the brand versus just a passive participant.

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Speaker 2: Doodles posted the short film on YouTube for everyone to see,

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Speaker 2: like all of its original content, but Doodles also allowed

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Speaker 2: people to buy tickets for the film on chain and

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Speaker 2: users could add the film to their collectors' profiles. In

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Speaker 2: the end, they sold more than fifty thousand tickets.

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Speaker 5: And that concept right there is unheard of for most creators. Wait,

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Speaker 5: you can sell content and people want to own that content.

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Speaker 5: They're willing to pay you a dollar fifty cents thirty

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Speaker 5: cents to own collect that And the answer is yes.

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Speaker 5: And I think the more and more people start learning

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Speaker 5: about distributing content on chain, the more people are going

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Speaker 5: to be drawn to it. And a lot of that

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Speaker 5: really boils down to how can you have fun with

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Speaker 5: your friends on the internet.

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Speaker 2: Going on chain can give economic power back to creators

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Speaker 2: and help them create stronger relationships with their fans. And

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Speaker 2: this community building aspect of the technology goes beyond the

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Speaker 2: digital economy. Like, if you're dining out in New York

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Speaker 2: City anytime soon, you could check out an on chain

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Speaker 2: app called Blackbird. Here's coinbase is Jesse Pollock.

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Speaker 4: Again, they're building a new product on chain that lets

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Speaker 4: restaurants build that more direct relationship with customers.

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Speaker 2: Blackbird is kind of like a traditional dining rewards program,

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Speaker 2: but by going on chain, the app gives restaurants a direct,

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Speaker 2: transparent connection with every customer who's using it to make

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Speaker 2: a reservation, check in, or pay for their meal.

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Speaker 4: So when a customer goes in they just tap their phone.

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Speaker 4: The restaurant now knows who they are, they can kind

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Speaker 4: of customize the experience around them.

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Speaker 2: This creates an easy to see history for every Blackbird

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Speaker 2: customer at the restaurant, a personal profile that follows every

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Speaker 2: interaction you have, which really matters to restaurants who thrive

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Speaker 2: on building a community of local diners.

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Speaker 4: And then over time, as you show up more, you're

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Speaker 4: actually building kind of who you are, what you love,

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Speaker 4: which you can then choose to also take to other restaurants,

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Speaker 4: which means you're going to have a more intimate experience

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Speaker 4: at every next restaurant that you show up at. There's

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Speaker 4: now hundreds of restaurants in New York City that are

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Speaker 4: using this platform to make it so that they can

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Speaker 4: have more direct relationship with their customers.

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Speaker 2: Companies like Blackbird and Doodles are trailblazers today, but as

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Speaker 2: more businesses create closer relationships with their customers by going

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Speaker 2: on chain, these kinds of apps could become the new normal.

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Speaker 4: And so what I think we're starting to see right

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Speaker 4: now is almost this exponential ramp where people are seeing

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Speaker 4: whoa this thing is new and it might look small

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Speaker 4: right now, but if I opt into it, I can

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Speaker 4: live a better life for my small business, for my music,

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Speaker 4: for my art, from my day to day living as

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Speaker 4: a consumer in the American or global economy. And I

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Speaker 4: think as more people see that, we'll kind of see

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Speaker 4: this transformation where the world shifts from online to on chain.

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Speaker 4: And it won't happen overnight, but it will accelerate faster

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Speaker 4: and faster and faster until the entire world's on chain.

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Speaker 2: In eighteenth century England, publishers did everything they could to

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Speaker 2: maintain control and profit off author's original works. These guys

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Speaker 2: were classic gatekeepers, setting the rules for how ideas and

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Speaker 2: voices could be heard. Centuries later, we're still living with

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Speaker 2: that model. But every time a prolific writer, or a

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Speaker 2: local business or any of us goes on chain, we

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Speaker 2: could be ushering in a new era in history where

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Speaker 2: there's no gate, no wall that keeps creators from having

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Speaker 2: control over their work, earning money from their fans, and

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Speaker 2: growing with the community that matters most to them. Thank

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Speaker 2: you to Adrian Johns, Jesse Pollock, and Julian Hogan. This

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Speaker 2: is Evolving Money, a podcast from Coinbase and Bloomberg Media Studios.

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Speaker 2: If you like what you hear, subscribe and leave us

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Speaker 2: a review. I'm Maggie Lake. Thanks for listening.