WEBVTT - Jon Robin Baitz 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.200 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:08.640 whatever it is, whatever you do, you're our daughter, and 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:12.120 I will love John Robin Bates has a new play 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:16.960 on Broadway, recently nominated for a Tony. Other Desert Cities 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:21.560 is about family dysfunction and the choices we make. There 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:27.080 are consequences to our actions. What does that mean? How 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:32.519 could I trust you? How could I ever be in 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:36.040 your presence? My dear Robbie, as he's known to many, 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:40.280 pursued similar themes in the drama he created, an executive 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:45.199 produced for ABC Brothers and Sisters. Robbie's strengths as a 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:49.160 playwright are magnified by the talent he surrounds himself with. 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:55.440 Dan Sullivan directed Substance of Fire in Joe Mantello directed 0:00:55.560 --> 0:01:00.720 Other Desert Cities. Robbie Bates often writes for ethic actors 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:04.800 he admires, like Stacy Keach and Ron Rifkin, who have 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:08.600 worked on several of Robbie's stage and screen projects. In 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.480 the theater world, you would be hard pressed to find 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:14.479 someone who wouldn't want to work with Robbie. He comes 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:19.040 across as kind, human and humble. During our conversation, he 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:22.360 confessed there's been a dark side to his success on Broadway. 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:26.199 He's been spoiled. John Robin Bates can barely think about 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:29.960 going back to the smaller theaters. I'm ruined. I'm ruined 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:33.160 from off Broadway now. I I sort of say things like, well, 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.320 that plays an off Broadway play, it's not a Broadway play. 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:39.959 Making fun of myself. The difference is, you know, you're 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:43.920 in this great, great, grand old house, you know that's 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:48.360 built for a kind of big experience, and the drama 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.920 is somehow expanded. I mean, I I've listened. I never 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:54.320 knew the difference, so I was always and when you're there, 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:56.760 you feel there's a di at different tapestry there. When 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.240 you're in a Broadway house that lends itself to the 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:01.800 kind of the imp ward of the project. There's a 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:04.200 lot of different things going on. You know, the audience 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:09.200 has bought into an experience for which they've usually sadly 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:13.400 paid more money, and so it changes the dynamic, it changes, 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:19.280 there's more ornamentation around it in some way. The laughs change, 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:24.160 which is odd. The laughs are sort of bigger and 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:27.000 more expensive, and so so what was the arc of 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:29.800 other desert cities before you went to Probably it began 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:32.800 where in the Mitzi new House, which is the beautiful 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:40.320 Jewel theater in the basement of Lincoln Center. I think, small, intimate, 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:46.559 and in fact even claustrophobic. What happened was Joe Mantello, 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.720 who directed it, immediately had a sense of of having 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.079 to build space around things, and that when once it 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:57.800 moved in the transfer, I actually believe the play got 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:01.440 better in its move It just all came together and 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:03.440 someone I did a little work on the play, and 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:06.919 for example, what work did you do? I worked a 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:08.959 little bit on the ending of the play, the last 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:13.160 few minutes of the play. But it went so well 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.160 off Broadway Lincoln Center. When you do that kind of thing, 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:18.560 what is it that propels you to do that? It's 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:21.720 just the knowledge that there's more to mind from it. 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:25.280 And mostly it was, you know, Joe's great sort of 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:29.880 probing sense of I think there's a deeper truth there. 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.720 I think we've glossed over something or skipped over something. 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:36.360 You have a success now on Broadway that if i'm 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:38.760 I could be mistaken, but it's been a while since 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:40.520 you had it to this level. This is a like 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.320 Substance of Fire again. You know where you had great, 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.880 great notices and people have said wonderful things about your 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:49.400 career and your future. That was twenty years ago. I 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:51.400 know when you look back on some of your place, 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:53.880 would you change them? I can't. I just have to 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.480 keep moving forward, right, I can't do it. I know 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:00.360 that people do, but you know I can't fight old wars. 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:07.440 I would find it disablingly backwards looking for myself to 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:12.840 go back. I think some of my plays have been 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:18.760 less successful to me than others. And to me, it's 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:23.839 all been about the process of getting to the next 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:27.080 play or getting to the next day. This play, though 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:31.400 at the core of it it comes out of trying 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:36.200 to understand the ways in which people collapse, even though 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:40.880 the subject is not necessarily depression. I want to take 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:45.680 two plays Substance of Fire Sullivan directed and Now You're 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:47.480 on Broadway and had been at the mid Sea with 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:53.000 other desert cities, and Joe directed. Compare and contrast Sullivan 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:57.680 with Joe in terms of their director very similar. They 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:06.159 are meticulous, meticulous miniaturists with big, expansive visions of what 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:11.920 logic and a world are comprised of. They're both indefatigable. 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:16.800 They never give up, They live and breathe it. Their 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:23.320 approaches are very different. Dan has a kind of almost 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:29.440 holistic view of of the logic of a play, and 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:33.840 Joe because I don't know, maybe because he was an 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:37.479 actor for a long time. Even though Dan had been 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:42.960 an actor, Joe looks for a different kind of character logic. 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:48.440 He's always asking and what happens next. Dramaturgically, he's very 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:55.479 much about the engine and the motor and Dan is, well, 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:58.520 he's also actually, he's actually all they're They're so similar 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:02.839 that it's only a matter of their temperaments that are different. 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:08.840 Dan is like a priest. Yeah, he's more jesuitical and 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:12.200 then tell her was what uh? To the extent that 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:18.799 you want to say, He's passionately, passionately dedicated to leaving 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:22.159 no stone unturned. And I think one of the reasons 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:26.200 he went back to acting this last year did The 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.760 Normal Heart on Broadway, and I think it's because he 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:34.160 had to re experience the the sort of dynamic of 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:38.200 what it means to be an actor, to get under 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:41.840 the skin of the experience and find out what kind 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:45.640 of communicator he is with actors. By acting again. Dan 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:50.600 has a a kind of remove about him, and Joe 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:59.080 tends to delve, oh sort of with sword, kind of 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:03.200 play stile play. Yeah. But they both have in common 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:11.040 is real rigor about their work, ethic and their intellectual 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:16.520 understanding of a subject, of a world. Sometimes, although it's 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:19.520 not always useful, I divide directors between directors that you 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:22.720 want to please because you want them to like you, 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:25.920 and directors that you want to please because you don't 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:28.840 want them to hate you. And I don't think I 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:30.520 need to tell you which one would be which in 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:35.200 this case, you know, because Joe seems so intense, It 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.400 just seems so smoldering all the time. Well he is 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:42.679 he No, he wants you to show him. He doesn't 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:44.960 want to have to tell you what to do. He 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:50.040 wants you to bring something amazing to the table every day. 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:53.640 It's why one loves, for instance, our mutual friend Nathan 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:59.000 Nathan Lane, because every day he brings something new, what 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:02.440 they call him money player. Many people, I think don't 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:06.200 understand this is not always the case that the theatrical 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.080 experience movies are very, very different when you work with 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:12.200 the director in the theater. A lot of them don't 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:16.800 tell you this or that they edit. You know. The 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:20.000 most famous example who I love is Joey Tillinger who 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:23.480 Tillinger basically says nothing for the for the three weeks, 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:28.400 and then in the last week he selects. My recollection 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:30.720 of Joey was it was three weeks of me doing something. 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:32.400 I'd say, what do you think? You say? What do 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:35.679 you think? Babe? Do you think it was? I just 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:38.240 I can't do it that way. I see it as 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:46.760 all about stripping away and finding that kind of improvisatory 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:52.400 freedom that's locked in the text, and that involves a 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:58.040 combination of savv nous and analysis and getting off book 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:02.280 really fast and being to move around really fast, and 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:06.160 then setting joe I'm told is a stickliff for that 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:10.480 get off books because nothing really happens until you do. Yeah, 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:14.240 it's it's it's difficult, especially in a world now, where 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:17.600 as I recall, you used to have five weeks of 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.360 rehearsal for a straight play, we've gone to a four 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:23.680 week rehearsal. Four weeks that goes by like like you sneeze. 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:29.200 I like shorter rehearsals with Bob Falls, another great director. 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:33.520 I did three hotels this last summer at Williamstown with 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.040 More Tierney and Stephen Webber, and they had two and 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:41.200 a half weeks Everything is Dangerous two and a half weeks. 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:46.439 Tell me about when a play like Substance of Fire, 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:48.880 How did that come to you? You know, it's interesting 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:53.160 that play in this place share something in common. They 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:57.360 came out of despair. They both came out of trying 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:02.040 to write myself out of a kind of real sense 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:05.480 of despondency and loss. And to the extent you want 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:07.400 to talk about it, what was the despondency Back in 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:10.959 I had been working on a play for a long 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:15.920 time that was eventually became a play called A Fair Country, 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.280 but at the time it was called Dutch Landscape. And 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.560 I worked on it impossible play to do when you're young, 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.920 about growing up. Did it at the Taper in Los 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:29.320 Angeles and I lost the play. I actually lost it, 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:33.600 you know, in rehearsal and development through nobody's fault, you know, 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:39.080 certainly not Gordon Davidson's who directed it. If anybody was 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:42.160 at fault, if you can even use that word because 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:46.120 it's it's theater, it was me. I was just in 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:48.720 despair over how did I let this happen to me. 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:55.480 I used to work at Book Soup in Hollywood, and 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:58.520 I borrowed the office above Book Soup to try and 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:01.000 figure out. You know, I was no longer working there, 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.640 So I was sitting up in this office above the store, 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:08.080 and I was surrounded by books, and I thought, oh, yeah, 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.080 I've read all of you. I've read you, you, you, you, you, you, you, 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:16.040 and none of you did me any good whatsoever. I 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.160 don't know how to fight. First line of substance fires. 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:22.440 Look at all these books. The play is about learning 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:26.800 how to fight and articulating the things you need, articulating 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:31.880 the ways in which you have to express yourself in 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:36.560 order to somehow achieve a kind of victory that goes 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:42.640 beyond words what scias victory. Isaac doesn't really have a 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:46.240 victory in an odd kind of way. He goes down 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.679 with his own ship. But he's unyielding. And I think 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:53.360 I tried to learn how to be unyielding, and writing 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.080 that play it didn't do me much good. Why well, 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.480 because life is life and plays or plays, and you 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:03.760 can't actually learned that much by writing them. You have 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:06.960 to live. Do you find that in the ensuing years 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:11.800 you wind up going up against things that just crush you, right, 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:14.319 they crush you. I realized that I'm not going to 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:18.119 compare battles with television networks with going through the Holocaust. 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.280 But on the other hand, the Isaac character, there are 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:25.080 some people who they are just incapable of the happiness 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:27.800 that leads to real intimacy because there's something that just 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:31.760 cannot get over. I think it's very true, totally true 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:36.560 of that character. And in his case, he has very 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:41.600 little choice. He's locked in battle with this melancholia that 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:44.640 won't lift, which I think people don't have a real 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:48.520 honest understanding about. They don't know what it's like to 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:52.360 be betrayed on like the ninth level, something really hideous. 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:59.240 I think despair is the dimensions of one's despair are 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.640 so difficult, called to quantify, so difficult to paint, so 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:08.840 difficult to expose, and it's such a huge subject. Certainly, 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.600 other desert cities is steeped in despair. You know, you 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:19.800 said talking about network battles, But I had I sort of, 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:23.800 you know, was ejected from my one adventure and television 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.640 up to that point, I was creating brothers and sisters, 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.760 and it was a very unhappy, very difficult experience for me. 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.600 And again at the end of that thing, I sort 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:38.000 of I came back east, you know, after having been 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:39.560 west for a little bit. And what was the first 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.560 thing you wrote after? About? There are three plays in 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:46.520 my drawer because I had forgotten how to write that. 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:49.360 This is the thing I think about with other desert 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.920 cities is it's the play where I learned. I taught 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:56.240 myself how to write again because I was so used 0:13:56.280 --> 0:14:01.880 to writing to please people. What happened with ABC, well, 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:05.640 first of all, networks being what they are, the people 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.280 who commissioned the piece and who are invested in putting 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:13.360 it on the air end up leaving. And so you're 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:16.280 left with a kind of in a kind of parents 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:24.560 and not necessarily particularly caring supportive step parents slightly bewildered. 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:29.400 I mean, the guy who really ran the entertainment division 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.840 kept saying, I I don't understand why anybody watches this show, 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.760 and I would say the same thing, except for different reasons. 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:41.680 I mean, it was really it was bizarre. She would 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.200 call me and scream at me. I actually said to me, 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:47.240 I don't know who you think you're talking to, And 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:49.640 I would you know, politely hang up and say I'm 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:53.840 I'm leaving the conversation now. At one point I said 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.200 to them, don't you feel like there's something wrong? I mean, 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:03.560 look at this amazing cast, Sally Field, Callista Flockhart, Rachel Griffith, 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:09.480 Ron Riffkin, Patty Wedding, on and on and on. Don't 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:13.160 you think there should be some higher intentions, some integrity, 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.560 maybe some I don't know, do you want do you 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:17.880 want to try and get an Emmy or something. I 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:19.800 didn't even know how to speak their language, but I 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:24.560 thought Emmy would be something that they would recognize. And 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:28.120 a literal quote from the head of the studio was, no, 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.040 I don't need awards. The ratings are good enough for me. 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.800 This happens in the first season, the first season, and 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:38.640 you are gone after how many seasons after the first season, 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.960 So it was all this takes place in one television season, 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:47.600 one nine month period. Yes, you know, someone comes in 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:51.920 to sort of manage the show, and they're beholden to 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.880 the network in the studio, as they should be. And 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:58.840 I'm beholden to an aesthetic and I'm an idiot for 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.880 being beholden to in a sthetic. But you know, people 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.360 love the show, and it went on for another four 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.120 seasons after that. You maintained some participation in the show. 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:10.240 You know, how is that possible? You created the show, 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:14.400 You are the creator of the show. Correct. There was 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:19.280 a writer's strike, and there was a force masure clause 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:24.600 forced masore being active God. The studio network could use 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:28.600 that clause to nullify any contract they had with anybody 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:32.320 they like. I had been very vocal during that strike 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:37.240 about what I considered at the time the very unhealthy 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:41.880 dynamic between the producers and the writer's guild, and I 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:44.800 wrote about this way too much. What was it? What 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:47.240 was the name of those uh blogs you wrote on 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.160 huffing impost leaving l A. Yeah, a lot of them 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:55.680 were very insanely painful and actually lead to again other 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.760 desert cities. The girl in the play can't stop writing 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:04.320 about things that affected other people, and she wants some truth. Yeah, 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:08.960 and then she's left with the debris. So it all 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:11.840 came out of you know, I pick up the phone 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.600 one day and I see that, you know, people's deals 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:18.800 are being canceled, but there are people who haven't made anything. 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:24.200 And I suddenly I'm I was gone, And I even 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:27.080 before that wasn't sure to what extent I was ever 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:29.440 going to go back. I knew I would have some involvement, 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:31.919 but then I had none whatsoever. But for me, what's curious, 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:33.600 And again you don't have to answer this question. I'm 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.399 just curious, which is, as the creator of a television show, 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:39.840 there is typically a windfall for that person as the 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:42.479 creative that show. If that was taken away from you 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:46.080 through some contractual slide of hand, where did all that go? 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:48.400 All went to the network? They took it all for themselves. 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:50.720 I can't speak to that. I'm just not going to 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:54.960 talk about it, but I am going to say that 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.240 I think it was the best thing that ever happened 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:01.520 to me because it would have been dirty money, right. 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:05.280 I think it would have destroyed me in some way too. 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:10.080 I have no pride in the thing that made me wealthy. 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:13.000 Would have made me terribly uncomfortable, and I would have 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.600 felt that I had betrayed whatever promise or potential I'd 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:20.239 set up for myself as a writer that if I 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:23.119 was going to survive at it, it couldn't be compromised. 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.720 This is Alec Baldwin, and I'm talking with playwright John 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:50.360 Robin Bates more in a minute. This is Alec Baldwin 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:53.600 and you're listening to Here's the thing. The idea for 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.800 John Robin Bates's new play, Other Desert Cities came to 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:59.720 him when he was back on the East Coast. I 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:05.640 was sitting at a beach with my notebook, and I'm 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:09.640 thinking about how to get back into it and what 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:15.080 matters to me, and I just sort of self destructed 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:22.000 at Brothers and Sisters. I had written about personal events 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:26.080 that implicated other people in some way that I hadn't 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.719 taken into account the consequences. And I found myself very 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:34.040 much like the character in my play played by Beth 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:38.640 Marvel and Rachel Griffith at various points, a writer who 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:42.000 is a dangerous creature. And I had a note to 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:48.160 myself play about daughter of a famous family who writes 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:54.320 a book about her growing up in this family, something 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:58.440 like that, the danger of telling the truth that turns 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:02.200 out to be a lie. And at that moment, this 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:05.119 lady of a certain age walked by me, and she 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:10.720 looked to me like um Pat Buckley, the old doyane 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:15.560 of New York conservative politics, the wife of Bill Buckley. 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:18.560 Bill Buckley and I had lunch with her once and 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.320 found her to be charming and engaged. And this woman 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:25.320 walked by me on this beach with her hat and 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:29.520 in a one piece bathing suit. I immediately felt the 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:34.040 mother in that play. And I suddenly remembered Old California 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:36.000 the way it was when I was a kid, and 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:39.320 we were just in the throes of an election at 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:44.000 the time, too were about to be and the Republicans 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:49.119 of certainly of that period and even more so today, 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:53.080 we're very confusing to me because they didn't seem recognizable 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:57.240 to me as having a coherent, cohesive coach and argument 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:00.040 for their principal positions, which had to be Prince a 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.239 Bold in some way. The play just came together in 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:10.159 one fell swoop, Old California Conservatives, the old hollywel System, 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:13.679 Reaga Nights. I even remembered I'd gone to high school 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:17.320 with I think, the daughter of John Gavin, and I thought, 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:19.479 you know, because I love Touch of Evil, and there, 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:21.840 I think, isn't John Gavin. No, he's not in Touch 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:24.520 of Evil. He's in Psycho case in all these movies, 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:26.600 and I thought about he was the ambassador to Mexica. 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:31.240 That's right, as is the Stacy Keach character and my play, 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:36.080 and I thought about your characters based on John Gavin 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:41.400 to some extent. They're all these archetypes. At the back 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:44.840 of all this, of course, there's also Joe Mentello, who 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:47.760 you know, we're no longer a couple, but he's my family, 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:49.720 my best friend, and you see, being a couple of 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:53.159 one year two thousand and two. So it was a 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:57.480 while and he kept saying to me, with all possible respect, 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:01.439 nobody's waiting for the next Robbie Bates play. And you know, 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:05.520 these are chilling words because I have so much to 0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:08.280 say and it's not coming out. My equivalent of that. 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:10.119 As my agent said to me, he goes, it's not 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:11.720 that these people don't want to hire you because they 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:14.600 don't like you. He says, they don't want to hire 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:19.120 you because they don't think of you at all. Jesus, Well, 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:21.879 it's terrible, because the worst thing that can happen to 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:26.840 an artist, I'm invisible. I no longer matter for me. 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:32.800 Writing plays has always been very tricky. I don't know 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:35.200 a lot, I don't have a lot to say. I 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:38.959 reach things very slowly, and I I sometimes it seems 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:43.440 facile and easy, and to me, some of the times 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:48.000 my thoughts and my sort of expressed opinions in place 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:52.600 seem hollow or naive, even because I know they're deeper 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:55.800 truths always to be found and that I'm But don't 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:58.040 you think that seeking them and being aware of that 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:00.960 makes you more likely to find it than anybody? You 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:03.679 didn't go to college? Did you know why you wanted 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:08.720 educating yourself? I wish I had gone to college. It 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:13.520 was a depressed and unsettled kid. And why I don't 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:21.040 I think I wasn't at peace with probably any element 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:23.439 of who I was, whether it was a sort of 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:29.440 nascent intellectual or sort of pre expressive homosexual kid. Or 0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:35.119 where variously l A from you were born? Where in 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:38.760 l A and you lived seven then Brazil for three 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:43.000 years in Rio, and then South Africa for six and 0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:46.160 a half years until I was eighteen. And your father 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:49.040 was in the condensed milk business. My father worked for 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:53.720 a giant multinational carnation milk. Yeah, it was a condensed 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:58.040 milk business. So l A, Brazil, South Africa, and then 0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:00.359 back to when you finally get back to la how 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:03.760 old are you so? High School's over? I just finished 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:06.040 high school. I'd sort of lost time through all. The 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:09.080 trial was high school in South Africa, Like I couldn't 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:12.919 get used to things like cricket and corporal punishment. You know, 0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:15.399 you get cane for like not doing well on a 0:24:15.480 --> 0:24:19.800 spelling test, literally caned. And I think, actually I was 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:24.199 so busy trying to be sly and charming that I 0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:28.919 forgot how to be me. That I think led me 0:24:29.040 --> 0:24:33.400 to rebel against learning itself. So I was sort of 0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:37.800 interested in the few things. I was interested in literature history, 0:24:38.040 --> 0:24:41.720 but I wouldn't apply myself to anything except escape, and 0:24:41.800 --> 0:24:45.159 part of escape meant not going to college. I was 0:24:45.240 --> 0:24:50.400 really lonely, and I I kind of became a depressed kid, 0:24:51.480 --> 0:24:57.040 and that manifests itself. You can say, I think I 0:24:57.160 --> 0:25:00.880 did you know you were gay? Then yes, I definitely 0:25:00.960 --> 0:25:03.760 knew that. I knew that add to your depression didn't 0:25:03.800 --> 0:25:07.920 make you feel more isolated. It wasn't proactive the gay 0:25:07.920 --> 0:25:17.440 community there in talking about getting caned. Yeah, well, um, 0:25:17.480 --> 0:25:20.600 I think my parents, who loved me very much, were 0:25:21.320 --> 0:25:26.159 distracted by their own terrors. There are certain families that 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:32.639 are born in terror and live in terror. Um conceived 0:25:32.720 --> 0:25:34.879 in terror. I need you to write a player for me. 0:25:35.040 --> 0:25:38.800 I want to be called conceived in terror? Go ahead, well, 0:25:39.119 --> 0:25:41.480 I mean death of a salesman? Is is a family 0:25:41.520 --> 0:25:44.440 that lives in terror? You were how old when you 0:25:44.560 --> 0:25:49.199 arrived in Durban? Ten? The eight years? Yeah, I was 0:25:49.280 --> 0:25:51.680 there almost eight years critical time, ten years or so 0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:54.520 all of your real back half of your childhood, your 0:25:54.520 --> 0:25:58.119 teenage years especially you are in Durban. Yes, it was 0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:00.879 seventeen or something when we left. But you had finished 0:26:00.920 --> 0:26:02.800 the high school program. No, no, I finished it in 0:26:02.960 --> 0:26:07.080 l A where Beverly Hills High. What was that like? I? 0:26:07.440 --> 0:26:09.920 You know, was the only kid I knew who rode 0:26:09.920 --> 0:26:13.280 their bike to school because everybody else's parents had given 0:26:13.320 --> 0:26:18.000 them a fiat literally, yeah or something. Who are your friends? Then? 0:26:18.080 --> 0:26:20.600 Who did you become friends with? Anyone? Oh? Yeah? In fact, 0:26:21.600 --> 0:26:26.640 Jenny Livingston went on to make Paris Is Burning, great documentary, 0:26:27.000 --> 0:26:31.920 Tina Landau, great theater director. Gina Gershawn my oldest friend 0:26:31.920 --> 0:26:33.920 from high school. We were in place together in the 0:26:34.000 --> 0:26:37.600