1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: Hm. I'm Robert Evans, and this is the introduction behind 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: the Bastards, my podcast where talking about terrible people and 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: all the things you don't know about them with me today. 4 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: My guest for this episode is Tamara Katan, host of 5 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: They Tried to Bury us UH podcast about immigrants coming 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: into the United States that exactly every week is a 7 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: different American origin story. So we have a different immigrant 8 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: every week. Awesome, it's been great. Well today we're not 9 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: talking about an immigrant, but we are talking about someone 10 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: who has done a lot of damage to immigrants, not directly, 11 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: but just through the people he's supported. Sure. Yeah, we're 12 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: talking about Roger Stone. What do you know about Roger Stone, tamer. 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: I know a little bit about him. I know that 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: he is uh. He lives in the upside down. As 15 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: I think a phrase I said to you outside, I 16 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: think he is a white Malcolm X to me, a 17 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: political version of aid any means necessary, you know what 18 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: I mean, Like before Malc come went to Mecca and 19 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: and got balanced in his life without principle, without principle, 20 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: by any means necessary. I don't care who I hurt. 21 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: I don't care how often I have to lie. I 22 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: think that lying is good. I think if you believe 23 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: in doing things that are virtuous, that you're a chump. 24 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: It's a cancer in our political system. Yeah, and he 25 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: is a human cancer. Absolutely. Now, listeners will note that 26 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: we did a two part episode on Paul Manafort months ago. 27 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: I recommend checking that out too, because they're there are 28 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: two halves of the same coin. So we talked about 29 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: one coin back. Today we're dropping the other side. So 30 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: let's get into it. On August ninety two, little baby 31 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: Roger Stone was born to Gloria Rose and Roger J. Stone. 32 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: His mother was a journalist who followed local politics. His 33 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: father drilled wells. Roger grew up in Louisborough, New York, 34 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: and described his family as middle class and blue collar. 35 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: So so far, we're doing fine. It's a normal middle 36 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: American by way. Roger was eight years old when he 37 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: got involved in his first political election. He campaigned for 38 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy, and even at that tender age, he 39 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: knew that honesty was not the way to achieve his 40 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: political goals. That's right, he later recalled to the Washington 41 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: Post quote, I remember going through the cafeteria line and 42 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: telling every kid that Nixon was in the favor of 43 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: school on Saturdays. That was my first political trick, which 44 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: is cute. It's fun, it's so unner. It's like an 45 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: origin story of a villain. Yeah, yeah, where he learns 46 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: the the disinformation. I think he was quoted about that story. 47 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: He said, that's why I learned the power of disinformation. Yeah, 48 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: that you can just if you just And it's speaking 49 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: as a tall white guy. This is something I battle 50 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: with my whole life. I really like telling a good 51 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: lie to people, like like a like like a joking, 52 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: like like I'll make up a fact about history or something, 53 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: and like and and I love seed it to a 54 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: friend and you hear him tell it in like a 55 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: party or something, and it's it's a really funny joke 56 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: for just you. Not a great thing to do, but 57 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: if you're confident and you have the right sort of 58 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: look in this society at least, because it works particularly 59 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: well in the United States. The same reason why. I like, 60 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: if you've got a mixed race group of people and 61 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: someone has to go talk to the cops, you picked 62 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: the guy who looks like me, I go talk to 63 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: the cops, and I it's it's it's fine. I think 64 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: roger Stone had that realization and decided to make that 65 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: his whole life, rather than be like, what if I 66 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: just made some jokes at parties. Yeah, it's it's such 67 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 1: a bizarre thing. Like you, if this was a show 68 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: about a nice, normal, responsible family, there would be a 69 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: massive teaching moment that was missed. Yeah, where like Andy 70 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: Griffith sat down young roger Stone and was like, well, 71 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: I know you won that classroom election, but you know, 72 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: here's why it's bad the light to everyone. You know exactly, 73 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: it's like winning a beauty pageant by going topless, Like 74 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: it's against the rules. You can't do that. Yeah, oh 75 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: Roger Okay, So uh it is entirely possible that that 76 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: anecdote is a lie. I do want to note that 77 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: because we're talking about Roger Stone, and every time we 78 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: talk about it, literally, of the things in this there's 79 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: multiple versions of So I have tried to call the 80 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: versions of reality that coincide the most with what I 81 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: can back up with like objective facts and what multiple 82 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: people have said. But like, if you do your own 83 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: research on Roger Stone, you'll run into different variations of 84 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: everything here. Because I think he's just been lying consistently 85 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: for about seventy years. Agree Y, Yeah, I mean it's 86 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: a negative version of one of my favorite Maya Angelou 87 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: quotes where she says, people may not remember what you 88 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: do or say, but they'll always remember how you made 89 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: them feel. Yeah, And he he'll make people the right 90 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: people feel the right way, regardless of that if if 91 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: the afformission is true or false, or damaging or hurtful, 92 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: or even leads to violence, he just doesn't care. He 93 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: just does not care. So Roger did start out supporting JFK, 94 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: which basically everyone did. It's an interesting note nineteen sixty 95 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: one that we do surveys like p and want to 96 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,239 Speaker 1: do surveys on like people's level of trust and government. 97 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: Nineteen sixty one is the peak in American history of 98 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: people trusting the federal government. So it's not weird that 99 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: like everybody's on board with JFK in this election now. 100 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: Roger Stone claims that his personal political ideology took a 101 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: right word turn for the first time at age eleven 102 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: when he read Barry Goldwater's The Conscience of a Conservative. 103 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: Barry Goldwater, for those of you who don't know, was 104 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: the kind of the Trump before Trump I think he 105 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 1: was a better at appealing to like intellectual conservatives than 106 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 1: Donald Trump was. Um, but he uh, you know the 107 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 1: reason that like you're not supposed to as a psychiatrist 108 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: psychoanalyze the presidential candidate. It's called the Goldwater rule because 109 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:38,919 Speaker 1: like so many people thought he was crazy when he 110 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 1: was running. So this guy's book is what like lights 111 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: a spark in Roger Stone's brain at age eleven. The 112 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: next year, he started volunteering for the Goldwater campaign at 113 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: age twelve. So he's like a very young volunteer for 114 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: this hard right presidential candidate. And while he's doing all that, 115 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: he comes across a book called a text and looks 116 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: at Lynden. Now, this bok was self published by a 117 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: self described ultra conservative named j. Evett Haley. Haley argues 118 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: that lb J was a lifelong criminal and a murderer. 119 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: Roger Stone would go on to write his own book 120 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 1: about lb j's role in the Kennedy assassination, accusing the 121 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: former president of at least eight murders. Yeah, it's it's 122 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: a nutsell book. Not that I don't think lb J 123 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: had some people murdered because he was lb J. He 124 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: definitely did. But this is you see the start of 125 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 1: like two things that are going to be through lines 126 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: in Roger Stone's life here. One of them is, of 127 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: course hard right conservatism, and one of them is he 128 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: really likes conspiracy theories, which is probably how he's going 129 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: to wind up in the Info Wars orbit a little 130 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: bit later in this story. So young Roger spent a 131 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: lot of his childhood alone. In reading this period of 132 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: time seems to have crystallized the ideology that would carry 133 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 1: him through to the rest of his life. Quote from Roger, Well, 134 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: you have to understand there were no kids my age, 135 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: male or female, for twenty five miles. I suppose I 136 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: could have thrown a football with my dad. But my 137 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: old man left at five am and came back at 138 00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: nine pm. But he ate his supper and fell to bed, 139 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: and he was with Greece from head to foot, and 140 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: he never complained a day in his life. You have 141 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,239 Speaker 1: to amuse yourself. This is the way Roger tells a story. 142 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:12,119 Speaker 1: Um kind of how yeah, yeah, my dad never talked 143 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: to me because he was working all the time. And 144 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: this is good. He never complained that he didn't have 145 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: time to raise a child. How can you tell that 146 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: story and not be like, maybe that's not a healthy culture, 147 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: that's not ideal. Anyway, Stone amused himself by engaging in 148 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: politics as often as possible. He volunteered for the Goldwater 149 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: campaign at age twelve, as I said, but he also 150 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: stayed active in his school's political process. Here's the New 151 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: York Times. As a junior then vice president of his 152 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: Northern Westchester High school, he manipulated the outster of the 153 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: president and his own succession running for re election as 154 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: a senior. I left nothing to chance, he said. I 155 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: built alliances and put all my serious challengers on my ticket. 156 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: Then I recruited the most unpopular guy in the school 157 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: to run against me. You think that's mean, No, that's smart. 158 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: So yeah. When he was thirteen, Roger Stone started taking 159 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: the train into New York City on weekends to volunteer 160 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: for the mayoral campaign of William F. Buckley Jr. That 161 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: campaign did not work out, but the experience of traveling 162 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: from small town America into its largest city to work 163 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: in politics had an impact on young Roger as well. Quote. 164 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: The key thing I remember about Louis Borrow, his small 165 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: hometown is that it was just across the border from 166 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: New Canaan. So early on I saw myself as living 167 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: in a kind of bridge between two cultures, the right 168 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: white working class and the white upper class. Very specific 169 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: about white there. Yeah, now, Stone believed both groups fundamentally 170 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: hated the government, so they were natural bedfellows. Should all 171 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: be able to get on board this whether or not 172 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 1: we're poorer rich white people, but white people is pretty 173 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: clearly who's traangling towards now. In nineteen seventy, Stone senior 174 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: year of high school, he attended the Connecticut State Young 175 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: Republican Convention. The Young Republicans were more conservative than the 176 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: mainstream of the party at that time. They're kind of 177 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: trying to push the party further to the right. Roger 178 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: hadn't been able to afford to book a hotel room 179 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: for his trip, so he'd showed up just sort of 180 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: assuming he could meet someone and convince them to take 181 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: care of it. Still his best friend at the time, 182 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: a guy named Dolan introduced him to another teenage young 183 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: Republican named Paul Manaford. Yeah, it really is, yeah, villain origins. 184 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 1: Ye crazy, these young guys meeting. They're both wearing ill 185 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: fitting suits. Nobody's got a lot of money. Yet I 186 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: knew he was involved in politics really young, but my god, 187 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: seven from the age of seven off, you know, his 188 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: family had to be involved in this, like to kind 189 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: of like directionally at least push him in a direction 190 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: at seven years old. He doesn't talk about that, not 191 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: that I found. So, yeah, I think you got one 192 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: of two possibilities. Either his mom and dad were both 193 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: way more political than he lets on and he was 194 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: pushed in that direction, or he didn't have much supervision 195 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: at all, and and way more white collar by the way, yeah, 196 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: and way more white collar. Changes his story makes him 197 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: a little bit less likable, especially if there's more money 198 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: in the picture. And then he wants to talk about 199 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: how many guys that work at oil rigs while he's 200 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: in a farm miles wells miles and miles away from 201 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: neighbors where his family is going. You should get into politics. Yeah, 202 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: there there's holes in the stone story and making mythology. 203 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: He's definitely making a mythology. And again this is the 204 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: picture he wants to Maybe didn't do anything, maybe he 205 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: was never involved in young, like I don't know. We're 206 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: we're trusting Roger here, and it's well I've seen pictures 207 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: of him as a young Republican. Yeah, this stuff is 208 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: definitely real once we get to where he's in high 209 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: school and he's with like man that stuff. There's a 210 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: lot of people, but like when he's talking about being eleven, 211 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: twelve years old and stuff like who knows, Yeah, this 212 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: might just be the image he wants to sure you 213 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: know anyway. Uh, Here's how The Washington Post wrote about 214 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: the first meeting of Roger Stone and Paul Manafort. I'm 215 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: just gonna say, the greatest friendship of all time. Hey, kid, 216 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: how you doing? Stone recalled Manafort, saying, before getting down 217 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: to sessing him out, why are you supporting Weaker? Manafort 218 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 1: was referring to low a Weaker, a moderate Republican candidate 219 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: for U S. Senator. Manafort clearly was testing the kid, 220 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 1: you think I give a funk about Weaker? I'm here 221 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: to elect Mescal, Stone shot back, meaning Thomas Mescal, a 222 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: conservative gubernatorial candidate admired by youthful Republicans. So that's like 223 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: how they get started as like Maniforts like you like 224 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: this fucking rhino Republican in name only and only in 225 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: Stones like no, I only like the crazy people like, 226 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: that's where I want to go is like the furthest 227 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,719 Speaker 1: right we can possibly be. Yeah. So Roger Stone and 228 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: Paul Manafort were instant buddies and would be not quite 229 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: inseparable but frequent collaborators over the next like thirty some 230 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: odd years. How old were they at this point? They 231 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: would have been like seventeen eighteen. They're just just babies. 232 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: Their babies be at their personalities held firm. I have 233 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 1: too strong opinions here. One of them is that you 234 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: shouldn't be able to join the military unless you're thirty, 235 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: and the others that you shouldn't be allowed to participate 236 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: in any kind of politics until you're thirty. I like 237 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: it a lot. You start doing drugs when you're twenty 238 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: one a man? Yeah, yeah, let's give them nine years 239 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 1: of experimenting without ingredients. You know what I mean? To 240 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: make people make these huge moral decisions before they've lived life. 241 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. You look at the stuff Been Shapiro 242 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: is writing when he's seventeen. He's like advocating war crimes 243 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: in Afghanistan. It's like, don't let a seventeen year old 244 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: right about politics. Do you know how funked up? That 245 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: it's yeah. I mean, that's how we get Paul Manafort 246 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,599 Speaker 1: and Roger Stone. So in addition to the Young Republicans, 247 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: Stone joined the Teenage Republicans, the College Republicans, and Young 248 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: Americans for Freedom. I might have noticed a theme there. 249 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: He became tightly wound up in Republican Party politics, enough 250 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: so that in nineteen seventy two, the year of President 251 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: Richard Nixon's re election campaign, nineteen year old Roger Stone 252 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: was selected to be one of Nixon's henchmen. Now Stone 253 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: was the youngest member of the committee to re elect 254 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: the president, literally known by the acronym CREEP, which does 255 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: nobody like checked on this stuff Nixon just as like 256 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: sight of yeah, create that's good, that's what we call it, 257 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: go commit crimes. Stone recommended that creepire a guy named 258 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: Theodore Brill, who was a college classmate and friend of his. 259 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: He recommended that Creep pay Brill hundred and fifty dollars 260 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,719 Speaker 1: to spy on radical groups. Stone claims that his work 261 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: for CREEP was all kids stuff, none of which was 262 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: illegal at the time, and all of which would have 263 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: been done with or without him. Unfortunately for Roger Stone, 264 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,599 Speaker 1: but fortunately for the concept of truth. The FBI was 265 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: keeping tabs on him back then too. There exists on 266 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: this hellish Internet of ours a website called Property of 267 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: the People. They host government documents retrieved by Foyer requests 268 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: and the like. They have a super fun article titled 269 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: FBI Documents on Roger Stone Reveal Sabotage, espionage, and the 270 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: life of a serial bagman. Oh my god, I'm going 271 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: into an Internet death spiral right after this episode. It's 272 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: a great website. Yeah, well, check him out, please do. Now. 273 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: My favorite thing about that title is that Roger worked 274 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: for Nixon as a literal bagman, at one point taking 275 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: a sack containing a jar of money to donate on 276 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: behalf of Republican presidential candidate Paul McCloskey to the Young 277 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: Socialist Yeah, yeah, just a jar of change in a sack. 278 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: So he donates on behalf of this Republican presidential canon 279 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: at Paul McCloskey to the Young Socialist Association. Stone claimed 280 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 1: that he was the Young Socialist Association's treasurer. Now this 281 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: was all a lie, obviously designed to make McCloskey look 282 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: bad and torpedo his chances of primarying Nixon. The original 283 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: FBI documents about this dirty tricker interesting because they give 284 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: us some insight into the precise nature of young Roger 285 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: Stone's moral compass. Quote. Stone met with Porter in his 286 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: office at Creep, where Porter asked him if he would 287 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: be willing to travel to Manchester to make a cash 288 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: contribution to the McCloskey campaign headquarters. Porter wanted Stone to 289 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: disguise himself as a member of the gay liberation movement 290 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: when making this contribution. Stone flatly rejected this proposal. However, 291 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: he concurred with the basic theme of this tactic. So 292 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: basically that's Roger Stone's line at age nineteen, because I 293 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: I'll pretend to be a young socialist but not a 294 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: member of the gay liberal I mean, you see the pattern, right, 295 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: you see the pattern, Like from such a young age, 296 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: he's like, I see the power of disinformation. Yeah. And 297 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: then forward a decade later and he's still doing the 298 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: same He's still doing the same thing, doing the same ship. 299 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: Did you ever see Seven Up, the British documentary. It's amazing. 300 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: It was like one of the first reality shows and 301 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: they interviewed kids at seven years old, and then at fourteen, 302 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: and then at every seven years Now they're in their sixties. 303 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: They've been doing it the whole time. But it was 304 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: a study on social classes. And the interesting thing they 305 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: found is when wealthy kids were seven years old and 306 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: they asked him what do you want to be? They 307 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: were really specific. They're like, I'm going to Cambridge, I'm 308 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: being a barrister, blah blah blah and all this stuff. 309 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: And they did whereas the kids and the poor neigh 310 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: birds were like, I'm going to be a spaceman yeah, 311 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: or like I'm gonna be a truck I don't know 312 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: what I'm gonna be like. So he's one of those 313 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: kids where they knew at such an early age they 314 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: were just and he doesn't pick I want to be 315 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: in politics. He picks I want to be a dirty 316 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: tricks guy in politics, Like I want to be like 317 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: the filthiest version of a political guy. It's remarkable that 318 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: that's his only ambition in life ever. Now, a researcher 319 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: named Emma best Uh found ten separate document releases from 320 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: the FBI, all of which mentioned roger Stone. According to 321 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: Property of the People's Rite up quote, the documents to tail, 322 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: roger Stone's role was a bagman for the Nixon campaign, 323 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: in which he funneled over twenty five thou dollars equivalent 324 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: to a hundred fifty thousand dollars in twenty eighteen to 325 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: fund political intelligence gathering and other dirty tricks, including mole 326 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: embedding and a mysterious payment related to the Watergate break in. 327 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: The documents include a copy of the FBI's interview with Stone, 328 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: as well as other statements to the Bureau about Stone 329 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: and Jason Renier, the alias Stone used for his anti 330 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: Democratic spy operations. So Stone paid another operative the modern 331 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: equivalent of sixty grand to surveillance sabotage the campaigns of 332 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: Nixon's Democratic rivals. After the Watergate break ins, he put 333 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: together a payment of almost a hundred grand and modern 334 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: dollars for an oil executive and Nixon fundraiser named Darius Keaton. 335 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: Far from being minor acts of political mouthfeasance as Stone 336 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: sort of presented them, Roger Stone seems to have been 337 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: an enthusiastic and prolific dirty trickster, happy to do almost 338 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: anything for Richard Nixon. Quote in one case, Stone sent 339 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: two Democrats invitations to a non existent primary campaign breakfast 340 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: and another Stone directed Democratic campaign literature intended for the 341 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 1: black community to be sent to union workers, and literature 342 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: intended for union workers to be sent to the black community. 343 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: And he had another stone saw to it that phone 344 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: lines used by a Democratic primary campaign were tampered with. 345 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: This resulted in Democratic failure to connect with many potential voters. 346 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: Well other, uh so this is the way he works. 347 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: This is the way he works at age nineteen. You 348 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 1: know what's so interesting about him too, is he never 349 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: as big as his ego got. For a guy whose 350 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: dad never talked to him, right, he always looked to 351 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 1: another man to please. Yeah. He never said I'm going 352 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: to be president. No, he never chased it himself. He 353 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: was always I'm gonna please dad. Yeah, he all. And 354 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: he's always picked a bigger man Tolize, which for most 355 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: of his life has been Nixon, a bigger than life man. 356 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 1: And even now he imitates Nixon with the peace signs 357 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 1: that he always throws up with his weird ass wanky arms. 358 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: It seems like he's a case study for like a 359 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: broken brain, like a father's son fracture. I mean, you know, 360 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: to get real here, this podcast Behind the Bastards, because 361 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: just as well be called daddy issues. But almost a 362 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: hundred percent of these guys had real fucked up times 363 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: with their fathers, Like why don't they just strip like 364 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,959 Speaker 1: everybody else? You know, Roger Stone actually might have been 365 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: able to do that. He's a bodybuilding self proclaimed Well no, 366 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: I mean, if you've seen I've seen shirtless picture him 367 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: when he's young, he was reasonably swollen even even in 368 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 1: his late forties, really fit looking guy. And if you 369 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: see the modern pictures of his back tattoo, you can 370 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: see in the building shoulders, he's got a really broad build. 371 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: He could have he could have stripped, which is a 372 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: noble and honest career. I just mean I worked out 373 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 1: with real bodybuilders that called Jim. His cemeteries all off. 374 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: He's got like baby calves and weird well on his 375 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: face is weird faces, weird as hairs. Everything's weird. They 376 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: all have weird hair. It's like Paul Manaford where spending 377 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: a hundred thousand dollars on suits that look like hundred 378 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: dollar suits just to just to know that it's I 379 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: don't know, they're all weird guys, And that's fine unless 380 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: you're ruining the world, which case it's exactly yeah. Now. 381 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: All the unfathomable shadiness of Richard Nixon's reelection campaign led 382 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: to congressional hearings in nineteen seventy three. During those hearings, 383 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: Roger Stone's secret identity as Jason Renier, young Socialist became public. 384 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: Knowledge was also revealed that Stone had hired someone to 385 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: spy on the McGovern campaign. At the time of the hearing, 386 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: Stone had gotten a job on Bob Dole's staff. He 387 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: was fired for this and seems to have taken the job. 388 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: Losses a sign that a man of his temperament was 389 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: better served by working as a consultant than working for 390 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: the government. In a two thousand and eight interview with 391 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: The New Yorker titled The Dirty Trickster, Stone reminisced about 392 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: his time with Creep and justified his actions by saying 393 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: the Democrats were weak, we were strong. He was, by 394 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: the way, the youngest person caught up in the Watergate 395 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, which is a They had him on 396 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 1: one of the charts in the court show that he 397 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: had taken money. Yeah yeah, that's how he starts his career. 398 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: So in the mid nineteen seventies, after Nixon's impeachment, the 399 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: Republican Party was most assuredly not strong. Uh Stone seems 400 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: to have elected not to waste his time on the 401 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: doomed presidency of Gerald Ford, History's greatest monster. Instead, he 402 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: worked to insinuate himself ever deeper into the right wing 403 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: organizations that clustered around the GOP. Paul Manaford, on the 404 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: other hand, made the error of backing Gerald Ford in 405 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy six elections. When Ford lost, it did 406 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: serious damage to Manaford's reputation as a political strategist. Prior 407 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: to Ford's lost, he'd been the clear prick for president 408 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: of the Young Republicans. I'm glad that you did. You 409 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: know what that works? Yeah, yeah, no, it's yeah. So 410 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna talk about what happens after Gerald 411 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: Ford's fall from grace is the wrong word. I don't 412 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: think he was ever quite there. Yeah, well, we'll get 413 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: into that. But first, are you a fan of some 414 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 1: products service or two? Sure? Well that's what is happening. Now, 415 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: let's pay the bills adds time. We're back. We just 416 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: uh produced some products and serviced to few services. I'm 417 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: feeling good. We're all ready to dive back in here. 418 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: I love the economical energy. It's perfect. Man, I'm I 419 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: got I got three things to say about economics. Let's 420 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: get back to this podcast. So, with Gerald Ford's fall, 421 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: Manfort was suddenly persona on grata amongst the Young Republican intelligencia, 422 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: whatever you wanna call him, showing either a surprising amount 423 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: of loyalty to his friend or just confidence that Manafort 424 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: would eventually wind up on top. Roger Stone worked with 425 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: Congressional aid Charlie Black on a scheme. Stone ran for 426 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: president of the Young Republicans, winning and basically acting as 427 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: a stand in for Paul Manafort to preserve his access 428 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: to the halls of power. So you see Roger Stone 429 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: basically agreeing to become a figurehead leader of this party 430 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: so that Paul Manafort can continue to have influence, which 431 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: is you don't run into a lot of things that 432 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: Roger Stone doing something for someone else. It's so true. 433 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: It's so interesting his career. There's been so many times 434 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: where he's been fired but kept as an advisor. Yeah, 435 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: so outside of all the trickster stuff, he really is 436 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: a legit political strategist. Well, that is actually the question 437 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: we're gonna have to answer over the course of both 438 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: parts of this podcast is whether or not he's actually 439 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 1: any good Because it's kind of a mystery. He certainly 440 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: has managed to stay in contact to a lot of 441 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: powerful people over the years, the question of whether or 442 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: not he actually did very much is really hard to answer. 443 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: So we're gonna we're gonna dig into that here. So Manafort, 444 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: Black and Stone all worked on Ronald Reagan's nineteen eighty 445 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 1: presidential campaign. Roger Stone managed the Northeast United States and 446 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: earned a claim for successfully turning much of that region 447 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: against the Democratic Party during that election. He did so 448 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: by appealing to groups who were committed Democratic voters, black 449 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: and Hispanic people, Jewish people, and Catholics. Stone had stayed 450 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: in touch with Richard Nixon because he just loved the 451 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: guy so much and he was success slip, bringing the 452 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: former president and definite criminal in as a strategist for 453 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: the Reagan campaign. Nix And is purported to have put 454 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: together the Ohio Strategy, which is less impressive than it sounds. 455 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: It boiled down to spending a shipload of money in 456 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: Ohio for its twenty five electoral votes. Stone would later 457 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: make a big deal out of this essentially as a 458 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: way of reinforcing his reputation as a political kingmaker. But 459 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan won forty nine states in that election, so 460 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: it's kind of doubtful that the Ohio strategy and specific 461 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 1: did that much. He didn't really need Ohio. It was 462 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: kind of a blowout. Still, Roger Stone had performed well 463 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: in a winning presidential campaign. He was offered a sweet 464 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: gig in the Reagan administration but turned it down, saying, quote, 465 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: I would never take a job in government. I'm interested 466 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 1: in politics. That's what pieces of ships say. Yeah, in 467 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty Roger Stone and his first as the game 468 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 1: we think that they play is not the game that 469 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: we recognize now. It's not about beliefs. It's about winning 470 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: and preserving access to power and money and stuff. You know, 471 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: And I'm sure every one of them. Sure Roger one 472 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: or two things he believes in. But to call him 473 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: like ideologically or republican or anything else. Now he believes 474 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 1: Roger Stone should be influential libertarian. Now he's been claiming 475 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: that for a while fairness, and that is a vague 476 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: enough ideology that I might say that's fair for Roger Stone. 477 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: It's it's open ended enough, like, yeah, you probably are. 478 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: Roger probably also the one party that hasn't rejected him, Yeah, 479 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: that need him more than any other party. Probably, No, 480 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: I mean they he and John McAfee could make a 481 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 1: powerful presidential combo. McAfee Stone pulled enough hair out of 482 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: my head in the last two years combined twitty indictments 483 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 1: between us. I don't need more nightmares. Oh god, it's 484 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: it's crazy that that would almost be an upgrade, you know, 485 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 1: you know what it would be. It would be at 486 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: least I'm pretty sure they can both spell. We don't 487 00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,959 Speaker 1: need to get political in this political podcast about politics. Remember, 488 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: we're not interested in government, We're interested in Wait, you 489 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: know what Roger Stone said. Trump doesn't govern. He's still campaigning. Yeah, 490 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: I mean he's he's never stopped campaigning. Although, in a 491 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: little bit of fairness, that's kind of how being president 492 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: works now, like you're always running until I mean he's done, 493 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 1: I've seen Yeah, but I feel like it just gets 494 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: escalated every single election, like the fundraising that starts the 495 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: year after the election or anything like that. You know, 496 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: there's a lot to say about, you know, the compromises 497 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: Obama made and the Affordable Care Act in order to 498 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: not get a shipload of insurance industry money thrown against 499 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: his campaign, in which is like at least more principled 500 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: than anything Trump's done. But like there's a lot of 501 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: gross problems in politics. Speaking of which, Roger Stone, it's 502 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: a perfect In nineteen eighty, Roger Stone and his friends 503 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: formed Black, Manifort and Stone, a lobbying organization Spy mag 504 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: Zene would later declare the Torturer's lobby. You'll want to 505 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: listen to our two partner on Paul Manafort if you're 506 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: interested in that story. Because while Paul instantly abandoned Beltway 507 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 1: politics to work for dictators, Roger State burrowed deep within 508 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,479 Speaker 1: the warm, cash rich bosom of the Republican Party. So 509 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 1: Stone makes money off of these. We talk a lot 510 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: in the Manifort episode. There's guys like Marcos Regime Mobutu 511 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: says Seco, Uh and Zaire and Uh. There's a bunch 512 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 1: of different dictators that Paul Manafort worked directly with during 513 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 1: this period of time. Roger Stone is making profits off 514 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: of that. And I'm sure he has some degree because 515 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: they're having meetings regularly and stuff. So I'm sure, he 516 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: has some input here, but it really is Manafort who's 517 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,959 Speaker 1: doing the direct work with these dictators, and Stone and 518 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: Black are more involved in domestic politics in the United States. 519 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: But yeah, so he's profiting off of murderers, but he's 520 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: not working with them to the same extent that Manafort is. 521 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: For whatever it's worth, Manafort is an objectively worse person. 522 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: Roger Stone, now Rogerstone, became known during the nineteen eighties 523 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: as the gatekeeper to Richard Nixon, which is a debatable honor. 524 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: He hosted a series of dinner parties and interviews with 525 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: a now elder statesman right up until the president's death 526 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: in nine In that New Yorker interview, Roger made what 527 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: I think is an unintentionally hilarious statement, quote the reason 528 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: I'm a Nixon it is because of his indestructibility and resilience. 529 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 1: He never quit. His whole career was all built around 530 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: his personal resentment of elitism. He was the poor me syndrome. 531 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy's father bought him his house seat, his 532 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: Senate seat in the presidency. No one bought Nixon anything. 533 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: Nixon resented that. He was very class conscious. He identified 534 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: with the people who wait TV dinners watched Lawrence Welk 535 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 1: and loved their country. I love this because literally the 536 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: most famous thing Nixon did was quit being president exactly 537 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: Nixon quit and also saying no one ever bought him 538 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: anything when it was your job to buy people for 539 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: Nixon during the Reaction campaign. That was literally what you did, Roger. 540 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 1: And isn't he like the creator of the superpacks, like 541 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,959 Speaker 1: he's one of the he's he's one of the of 542 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: that and of lobbying, like black Man Offorton Stone was 543 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: the first really modern lobbying first made a cancer in 544 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: our political system because in addition to helping dictators lobby 545 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: the US government for foreign aid, they kind of invented 546 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: the idea of working with both sides and an election, 547 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: so well, no matter who wins, we've got someone who 548 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: we can then sell access to. Like yeah, we go 549 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: into a lot of detail about in the Maniford podcast 550 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: Anti American. It's anti everything but the couple of dozen 551 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: people who make money off of it. I don't know 552 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: why the Republican Party attacked so many people and who 553 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: isn't isn't made in America? But the Democratic Party doesn't 554 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: enough attack people who isn't made of America. It's so 555 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: un American what he's doing. It's against the policies of 556 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: the people that founded this country. Well, I mean, the 557 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: only correction I might say is that, like, it's what 558 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: you and I don't want to be American, but there's 559 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: a lot of people who want it to be American. 560 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: And that's like the great conflict of our time. Well, 561 00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,959 Speaker 1: if all of us voted, I think they vote more 562 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: like us the number. I think the numbers are on 563 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: our Democratic side. I would agree, but taught us the 564 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: numbers ain't nearly everything they ought to be. Like, yeah, yeah, 565 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: And Roger Stone is probably one of those people who, 566 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: like Mitch McConnell, does not want there to be a 567 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: federal voting holiday. Yeah. Amen, you're easy terrified of that. 568 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: God people vote. Yeah yeah. I also love Roger Stone's 569 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: embrace of like how down to earth Nixon is, considering 570 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: that Roger Stone is a man so infamous for his 571 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: love of expensive clothing that he calls suspenders braces, which dude, dude, 572 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: you know, he swept chimneys when he was five. He's British. 573 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, I got a whole rant about waistcoats 574 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: and vests. But that's not this is not the place 575 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: for that. By Roger Stone's reputation as a serious politic 576 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: players seemed to be fairly solid. I found a New 577 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: Republic article from December of that year that referred to 578 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: him as the Enfant terrible of Northeastern politics. Yeah uh quote. 579 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: Stone is widely credited with making the difference in Thomas 580 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: Keane's narrow victory in the nineteen eighty one New Jersey 581 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: governor's race. This was achieved by portraying the liberal Republican 582 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: contender as a conservative supply cider. Stone convinced Keene to 583 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: campaign on the promise of a tax cut on selected 584 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: keen raised taxes. He also convinced prominent friends like Kemp 585 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: to do television spots for Keene, assuring him victory and 586 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: the Republican primary. I don't advocate candidates changing their positions, 587 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: just trimming their sales, Stone says, I do have principles. 588 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,479 Speaker 1: That sounds like Roger now. Stone bragg that he had 589 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: created a plan to basically build a permanent Republican majority 590 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: in New Jersey back in Night five. You may note 591 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: that that did not work out. Entirely. But as the 592 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: New Republic article made clear, Stone's greatest and perhaps only 593 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: real gift was in dropping negative dirt on his rivals. 594 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: To the press, quote, he is an expert at dropping 595 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: stuff unfavorable to his opponents as a political writer who 596 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,239 Speaker 1: has used and been used by Stone for years, and 597 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: he is very accurate. You don't last long at that 598 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: game if you leak bullshit. So this does seem to 599 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: be one of the through lines of his career that, like, 600 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: outside of the dirty tricks and stuff, the thing he's 601 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: really good at is figuring out dirt on people and 602 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: getting it to the right person you could. I mean, 603 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: it's it's the intel inside of the Trump campaign. Yeah, 604 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: he's a Penteum processor. All the stuff he says is 605 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: a stuff. Trump's repeat the Berther thing that was Roger Stone, 606 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: Well it was Jerome Corsi who was a Roger Stone contact. 607 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: Didn't Roger Stone advise Trump to use that language? It's possible, 608 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: I mean very he definitely what we'll get into some 609 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: more later about like what he did with Trump, But 610 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: like one of the guys really responsible for kicking off 611 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: the birth of thing was Jerome Corsi, who was probably 612 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: Roger Stone's contact with Wiki leaks and who Roger Stone 613 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: had a job at info wars and so it's very 614 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: likely that that that that was one of the anyway, 615 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: but it's also possible it all goes back to the 616 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: same little jacuzzi. Yeah, it's eight or nine. It's a 617 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: small all apartment in New York's worth. Yeah, so bizarre 618 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: that are responsible for fucking this democracy. So yeah, it's 619 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: really remarkable. Roger was not particularly loyal to the people 620 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: he worked with, which is perhaps not surprising given Black 621 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: Manafort and Stone's reputation for working both sides of the 622 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: political aisle. In nineteen eighty four, he wound up working 623 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: for Mary Mochurry in a New Jersey senatorial race. One 624 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: of his colleagues recalled quote, Roger was characteristically bad mouthing 625 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: his clients, saying she wasn't up to it. He was 626 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: being paid to say she would do well, and already 627 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: who was working to dissociate himself from her in Washington Now. 628 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: The article noted that Stone was also famous in the 629 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: belt Way for bragging about the work he'd done for 630 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,719 Speaker 1: Richard Nixon's campaign. David Keene, a lawyer and lobbyists said quote, 631 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: Roger likes the aura of having done something bad in 632 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: his past. You get the feeling that he's sorry it 633 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: was so minor. He likes to say, watch me, I'm 634 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: a tough guys. One of the truer things I've run 635 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: into someone saying about Roger Stone. In nineteen eight six, 636 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: during another interview, Roger Stone listed Roy Cohne, Richard Nixon, 637 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: and the Duke of Windsor as his biggest political idols. Now, 638 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: roy Cone was a former McCarthy aid and famed political 639 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: dirty trickster himself. The Duke of Windsor was a literal Nazi. 640 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: It was roy Cone who would later proved to be 641 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: Roger stones liaison the infamy. While working for President Reagan's 642 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: reelection campaign, Roger was given roy Cone's contact information on 643 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: a list of President Reagan's friends in the city. Since 644 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: virtually all of Ronald's friends were dead, and since Roger 645 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: was a big Cone fan, he reached out to the 646 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: elder Creepsman for some advice. What Cone told him would 647 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: set into motion a series of events that have irrevocably 648 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: altered the course of all life on this planet. Roy 649 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: Cone told Roger, you should talk to this guy. Fred 650 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: Trump and his son Donald now Trump had met Cone 651 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: at a member's only Manhattan club called Creatively the Club 652 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: back in nineteen seventy three. According to Washington Monthly quote, 653 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: he Trump asked Cone, the government has just filed suit 654 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: against our company saying that we discriminated against blacks. What 655 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: do you think I should do? Cone advised him to 656 00:33:58,440 --> 00:33:59,959 Speaker 1: tell them to go to hell and fight the thing 657 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: in court and let them prove you discriminated. So Donald 658 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: had hired Cone to represent him, and Cone became something 659 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: of a mentor to Trump as well. He taught the 660 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: future president a number of things, including his lessons on 661 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: legal conflict. Lessons like this, no matter what happens, no 662 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: matter how deep in the muck, you get, claim victory 663 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: and never admit defeat. Yeah. Now Stone met with Donald 664 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: and wound up getting a hundred thousand dollars out of 665 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: him for Ronald Reagan's reelection campaign. Christine Seymour, who worked 666 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 1: for Cone as a switchboard operator, wrote in her notebook 667 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: at the time about how Stone referred to Donald Trump quote, 668 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,959 Speaker 1: Roger did not like Donald Trump or his new house. 669 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 1: Told me they were losers, but if Roy used them, 670 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: he would too. So this depiction of events put forward 671 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: by Washington Monthly is not consistent with other descriptions of 672 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: the beginning of the Trump Stone relationship. Is one of 673 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: the many things there's debate about. An NPR interview with 674 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: Morgan Peemy or Paim, one of the directors of the 675 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: documentary Get Me, Roger Stone, put forward this version of 676 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: events instead. Quote. Roger was the very first person to 677 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: suggest to Donald Trump that he should run for the 678 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: presidency back in nineteen eight seven. Then he spent the 679 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: next twenty nine years cultivating Trump's candidacy until he was 680 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: ultimately triumphant. I think he believed from day one that 681 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: Trump was a legitimate candidate. Now certainly Trump's previous flirtations 682 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: with running for the president, it's hard to look at 683 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,240 Speaker 1: vis anything other than publicity stunts. But Roger was always 684 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: dead serious about the effectiveness that Trump could convey as 685 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 1: a candidate. Now Stone himself put forward this version of 686 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: events as recently as two thousand sixteen, when he was 687 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: interviewed on the floor of the Republican National Convention. Isn't 688 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: true what people say, you convince him to run for presidents? Yes, 689 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: you convince run for presidents. Started you were there. I've 690 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: been trying to do I've been trying to get him 691 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 1: to run for a long time. Try to get Hi 692 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: run in eighty eight, try to get him run into 693 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 1: two thousands, try to get a run in twty twelve. 694 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 1: He could have bed Romney, although Romney got a long 695 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: head start. Push that for a long time. I'm happy. 696 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: So it's hard to say where the truth lies here. 697 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,879 Speaker 1: To my thoughts, I think the Cone switchboard operator it's 698 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 1: probably closer to accurate that all this stuff about Roger 699 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: Stone recognizing Donald was a perfect presidential candidate is a lie. 700 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: It was kind of like everything else in his career, 701 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 1: he just sort of went with things as they rolled in. 702 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: Certainly in nineteen eighty four when he met Donald, I 703 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: don't think he had much respect for the guy. And 704 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,479 Speaker 1: there's evidence that Trump didn't like him very much either 705 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: until pretty recently. But we'll get into more of that 706 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: later now. In nineteen ninety six, the National Inquirer published 707 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: an expose on Roger Stone. Stone had been posting ads 708 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 1: in a number of swingers magazines and websites. I heard 709 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: about he and his wife, Yeah, yeah, yeah, he and 710 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 1: his wife were looking for single men and couples to 711 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: join them in group sex, don't describe himself as a bodybuilder. 712 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: There's a lot of detail on Stone's love life that 713 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 1: I'm not going to get into here because I don't 714 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: really care. I don't think that's anybody's business, Like just 715 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 1: that that they weren't like molesting kids or anything. They're 716 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,320 Speaker 1: just doing weird sex. That's fine. But the uproar overall 717 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 1: this forced Roger Stone to retire from Bobdell's presidential campaign. 718 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: Roger initially denied the rumors, claiming first that they'd been 719 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: placed to frame him, and then that some help at 720 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: his house, like basically like a cleaning lady or something 721 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 1: had like leaked this stuff to the press too, you know, 722 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: discredit him or whatever. But he later admitted that the 723 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: ads were his and that he'd only denied them because 724 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,360 Speaker 1: his grandparents were still alive at the time. He cheerfully 725 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 1: admitted from nine to being a libertarian and a libertine. 726 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: In an interview about all this, He also said some 727 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: very strange things about famous homosexual and AIDS Victim Roy 728 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: Cohne quote. Roy was not gay. He was a man 729 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: who liked having sex with men, gays, were weak, effeminate. 730 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: He always seemed to have these young blonde boys around. 731 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,760 Speaker 1: It just wasn't discussed. He was interested in power and access. 732 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: He told me his absolute goal was to die completely broken, 733 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: owing millions to the I R S. He succeeded in that. Wow. 734 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: I just want to note that Roger has reiterated several 735 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: times that Roy Cone is his idol and the person 736 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,439 Speaker 1: he aspires to be, Like, did you think he's gay? 737 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: I doubt that he's bisexual. Yeah, maybe maybe, uh, maybe 738 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: he's dipping toe. It's such a bizarre I'm always fascinated 739 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: by people who are hardcore Republicans, staunch Republicans who don't 740 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,760 Speaker 1: live the life at all. But then you go, okay, 741 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 1: well he's just doing whatever he needs you to win. Yeah, 742 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: I mean it doesn't matter. You've got that staunch economic 743 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 1: wing of the party. A lot of whom you know, 744 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 1: are super socially like whatever. Like you can meet him 745 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: at like a kinky eyes, wide shut funk party and 746 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: never know that they're like supply side economics guys. You 747 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,919 Speaker 1: know what. It confused me because I thought he might 748 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 1: have empathy. No, No, that's what a normal human being has, 749 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 1: and it would be hard with someone with empathy to 750 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: participate in in a gay lifestyle and then do things 751 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 1: that hurt gay people. Well I don't. I don't know 752 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: that Stone ever did, but that's certainly good criticism of 753 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: roy kone because he was a big back of of 754 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,720 Speaker 1: the Reagans, which the worst presidents in history for gay people. 755 00:38:54,960 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 1: You know, and uh Cone died in the AIDS epidemic. Like, yeah, 756 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: but when we get back, we're gonna talk about Donald 757 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: Trump's first presidential campaign and how Roger Stone helped make 758 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,320 Speaker 1: that a reality. But first, the only reality listeners of 759 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 1: this podcast need is the reality of the wonderful products 760 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: and services that support this program and or content module. 761 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,919 Speaker 1: We're back. So a little bit earlier, we were talking 762 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: about sort of the competing theories about when Roger Stone 763 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: wanted Donald Trump to run for election and the guy 764 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: who did, to get me Roger Stone documentary was like 765 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: he saw him as a serious candidate from from the beginning. Always, 766 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: even though the first campaigns weren't all that serious, Roger 767 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: believed in him. This story is why, I think that's bullshit. 768 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 1: So in n Roger Stone got another chance to help 769 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 1: a Republican presidential candidate and finally make use of his 770 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: friend Donald Trump. That year, Pat Buchanan announced that he 771 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,760 Speaker 1: would be running for president under the Reform Party ticket. 772 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,280 Speaker 1: This worried Republicans because third party candidates are always scary. 773 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: We're dealing there with at right now, with Schultz and 774 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: the you know, the Democratic primaries and stuff. So Roger's 775 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 1: strategy was to neutralize Pet Buchanan by using Donald Trump 776 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,240 Speaker 1: to run against him. From the left. Roger had Trump 777 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: embraced gun control and universal healthcare, as well as accused 778 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: Pat Buchanan of being a hitler lover, which is actually 779 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: kind of fair. Trump dropped out soon after, but the 780 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: campaign did its job. As the Weekly Standards Matt Labosh 781 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 1: wrote a week in, Buchanan went on to help the 782 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: Reformed Party implode, and Republicans suffered no real third party threat. 783 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,760 Speaker 1: So it does seem that in nine at least, Donald 784 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: Trump was just a convenient tool for Roger Stone, not 785 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: a serious presidential candidate. He represented a good way to 786 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,760 Speaker 1: deal with a third party candidate who might have threatened 787 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,440 Speaker 1: George W. Bush's election. Roger Stone would go on to 788 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: play another major role in the election of the man 789 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,239 Speaker 1: the world would come to know as w Bush too, 790 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: electric boogaloo and a literal war criminal. Uh Stone's first 791 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 1: job to the Bush campaign was helping them win in Florida. 792 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 1: He did this by buying advertising at a number of 793 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: Spanish language radio stations. He in his Cuban American wife 794 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: would show up and push a conspiracy theory quote from Roger. 795 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,239 Speaker 1: The idea we were putting out there was that this 796 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: was a left wing power grab by Gore, the same 797 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 1: way Fidel Castro did it in Cuba. We were very 798 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 1: explicitly drawing this analogy al Gore to make it a 799 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 1: violent power grab Algor the dictator. I have trouble imagining 800 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: al Gore, like even shooting a three pointer, Like that's 801 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: too aggressive for al Gore. Like I don't. Al Gore 802 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: is such a like he's such a lover. I feel 803 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,359 Speaker 1: like he's just made to hug, Like he was born 804 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 1: without bones. He's a real hugger. Like if a dog 805 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: bit him, he wouldn't even pull his hand away. He 806 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: would just would just be like al he would just 807 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: be like, how you stretched my legs? This is a problem, Oh, 808 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,959 Speaker 1: al Gore, only you'd had any charisma at all. Poor guy, 809 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: Poor guy, poor guy, who would have really helped us 810 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,440 Speaker 1: avoid some problems. Now, during the infamous two thousand election recount, 811 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: Roger Stone claims to have been the organizer of the 812 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: infamous Brooks Brothers riot. This was essentially a bunch of 813 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 1: Republican operatives swarming South Florida and Miami to protest the 814 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 1: ongoing recounts. It's called the Brooks Brothers Riot because they 815 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 1: all wore Brooks Brothers suits. Here's that New Yorker article quote. 816 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,719 Speaker 1: At one point on November twenty two, Stone said he 817 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 1: heard from an ally in the building that Gore supporters 818 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 1: were trying to remove some ballots from the counting room. 819 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,759 Speaker 1: One of my pimply faced contacts said two commissioners have 820 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: taken two or three hundred ballots to the elevator. Stone said, 821 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: I said, okay, follow them. Half you guys go on 822 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,759 Speaker 1: the elevator and half go in the stairs. Everyone got 823 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 1: sucked up in this. They were trying to keep the 824 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 1: doors from being closed. Meanwhile, they were trying to take 825 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 1: the rest of the ballots into a back room with 826 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,160 Speaker 1: no windows. I told our guys to stop them. Don't 827 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 1: let them close that door. They're trying to keep the 828 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: door from being closed. There was a lot of screaming 829 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,719 Speaker 1: and yelling. In fact, the New Yorker notes the Gore 830 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: official and the elevator Joe Geller was carrying a single 831 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,360 Speaker 1: sample ballot. Now, the dual scenes of chaos, both inside 832 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: and outside the building prompted the recount officials to stop 833 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,440 Speaker 1: their work. The recount in Miami was never restarted, depriving 834 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,400 Speaker 1: Gore of his best chance to catch up in overall 835 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:02,279 Speaker 1: state tally. So, the Brooks Brothers riot is pretty consistently 836 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,320 Speaker 1: across the board, considered an important fact in Bush's winning election. 837 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: You know, didn't they eventually get to the numbers like 838 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,760 Speaker 1: months after people prove the Gore won the popular vote. 839 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:18,799 Speaker 1: Never entirely, but it's pretty like yeah, basically in essence. Now, 840 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: Brad Blakeman, a lobbyist and political consultant for the Bush campaign, 841 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: claims that Roger Stone is lying about his involvement in this. 842 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: You know, obviously the Brooks Brothers ryan happened, But Blakeman says, 843 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 1: Rogers just taking credit for something he didn't do. Do 844 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,719 Speaker 1: you think he'd be sued for that? Like, you know, 845 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:39,719 Speaker 1: that's not it should be. That's his whole career. Is 846 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,880 Speaker 1: that not illegal? The Roger Stone story. You interfered with 847 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,560 Speaker 1: the democratic process. You interfered with a voting process. I 848 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: have some issues with the Get Me Roger Stone documentary, 849 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 1: and I do think a better title would have been 850 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,720 Speaker 1: is that not illegal? Is that really? That's what? Stop 851 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 1: for a second every time? How does he know the 852 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: law better than I don't think he does. I think 853 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,000 Speaker 1: he's gotten lucky enough in the past that because I know, 854 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:08,759 Speaker 1: maybe he was illegal what he was doing, but like 855 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,160 Speaker 1: nobody charged him with it, and like I think he's 856 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 1: he It's called the first mover advantage in essence, like 857 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:15,879 Speaker 1: if you're willing to take that, you've got like two 858 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,520 Speaker 1: animals and there's like a food resource in between them. 859 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: The animal that's most likely to go for it. You know, 860 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 1: sometimes he might get challenged by the other animal and 861 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,520 Speaker 1: he might get beaten up, but it's more likely that 862 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: that other animal will back off and not want to 863 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: have a fight, and so it's good to just try 864 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 1: and lunge for the food, which Roger Stone always does. Okay, 865 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,839 Speaker 1: so Brad Blakeman says, Uh claims he was the guy 866 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:38,759 Speaker 1: in charge of the Brooks Brothers riot and says quote, 867 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:40,279 Speaker 1: Roger did not have a role that I know of. 868 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:41,920 Speaker 1: His wife may have been on the radio, but I 869 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,799 Speaker 1: never saw or heard of him, which again reinforces one 870 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:46,520 Speaker 1: of the most common patterns when you talk about the 871 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 1: life of Roger Stone. It's really hard to tell if 872 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,280 Speaker 1: he's a legitimately influential operator or just a prolific liar. 873 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 1: I doubt most of the people who have hired him 874 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,400 Speaker 1: can truly tell you. Ed Rowland's former political director for 875 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,520 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan, told The New Yorker and Too thousand eight, 876 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: Roger was a fringe player around town. He always had 877 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: this reputation of being a guy who exaggerated things, who 878 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: pretended he did things. Roger was never on Nixon's staff, 879 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,440 Speaker 1: was never on the White House staff. I don't think 880 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 1: you'll find anyone in the business who trusts him. Roger 881 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 1: was always a little rat. In a two thousand and 882 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 1: eight interview, Donald Trump echoed that sentiment. Roger is a 883 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,799 Speaker 1: stone cold loser. He always tries taking credit for things 884 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,320 Speaker 1: he never did. Everyone who writes or talks about Roger 885 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 1: Stone winds up dealing with this issue. Eventually, no one 886 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,480 Speaker 1: can seem to agree on whether or not he's any 887 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: good at his job. Even people who's talk about him 888 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: being good at his job at one point, we'll talk 889 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,320 Speaker 1: about him being a liar and a fraud at other points. 890 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: I found one Washington Post article that noted quote in 891 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,360 Speaker 1: a Post profile. One Republican luminary called him the party's 892 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,840 Speaker 1: single best consultant, and another dismissed him as one of 893 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 1: the great all time frauds of American politics. Sure, I mean, 894 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 1: it's hard to praise someone who hurt you, and it 895 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:52,600 Speaker 1: might be the you know what I mean, Like, I 896 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 1: think there's a part of it too. There's a lot 897 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 1: going on all these guys. I mean, there's so many 898 00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: times where something has happened in American politics and in history. 899 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,680 Speaker 1: I'm like, that's crazy, it's fraudulent, it's wrong, it's corrupt. 900 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,799 Speaker 1: And there he is. Yeah, it's always there, and it's 901 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,960 Speaker 1: it's a lot harder with like with Paul Manaford. You've 902 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 1: got a bunch of cases where like, uh, there's this 903 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,600 Speaker 1: this war going on. Uh, I forget the name of 904 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 1: the dictator, but there's this war going on in like 905 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,319 Speaker 1: Central Africa, and like the USSR is backing one side 906 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:22,880 Speaker 1: in the US is backing another side, and then the 907 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,560 Speaker 1: USSR pulls their military aid and everyone's like, Okay, the 908 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,320 Speaker 1: civil war is going to end, and these guys, Jonah 909 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,319 Speaker 1: Savimbi is the guy who was backing, and these guys 910 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 1: are gonna stop. And then Manafort goes directly to the 911 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 1: federal government and lobbies and gets Savimbi to continue having 912 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 1: weapons for another ten years and half a million more 913 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:40,080 Speaker 1: people dying. Okay, that's a direct thing. Paul Manafort did 914 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,840 Speaker 1: undeniably extended the length of that war by his lobbying. 915 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: It's never that clear with Roger Stone. There's always multiple people. 916 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:49,920 Speaker 1: So that's part of the thing that's difficult, is like 917 00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,160 Speaker 1: Roger Stone because of just the kind of dirty tricks 918 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,280 Speaker 1: he gets up to, is a lot slippery here um, 919 00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 1: or at least he was until recently. So that is 920 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,000 Speaker 1: where we're going to leave off for today. When I 921 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:02,880 Speaker 1: come back, we will be talking about some things that 922 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,360 Speaker 1: are inarguable about Roger Stone. Finally, his foundational role in 923 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,040 Speaker 1: the Trump campaign and all of his many, many, many 924 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:14,200 Speaker 1: dumb crimes. So Thursday, the day after tomorrow, No, Sophie, 925 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: we don't edit this podcast. What is time? You can't 926 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,960 Speaker 1: edit audio that's the most basic rule of this. Are 927 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 1: you doing the lift thing? All right? Listeners, I am 928 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,680 Speaker 1: the bestard this week because I made Sophie sad. So 929 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,600 Speaker 1: buy a T shirt on te Public. It's the only 930 00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:35,960 Speaker 1: thing that brings your joy is our T shirt sales. 931 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: T Public public a sound bite that goes with tea public. 932 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,399 Speaker 1: That's our sound bite. Now there you go. You can 933 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:48,920 Speaker 1: you feel free anytime? Just public to me? Are you 934 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,919 Speaker 1: want to plug your plugables before we we cack out 935 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 1: for the next couple of minutes. Sure? If you guys 936 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,120 Speaker 1: are looking for live comedy, do you want to see it? 937 00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,320 Speaker 1: Arab American who grew up in East l A throwing 938 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: his thoughts out. You can follow me at tamer Katan 939 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,200 Speaker 1: dot com for all my shows, at tamer cat on 940 00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,160 Speaker 1: Instagram and then um of course, I'm the creator a 941 00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,520 Speaker 1: host of my podcast called They Tried to Bury Us 942 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,720 Speaker 1: Along with My Mom, where we mean a new immigrant 943 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,879 Speaker 1: every weekend hear their American origin story. Check out They 944 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,080 Speaker 1: Try to Bury Us. Check out Tamar on Twitter. You 945 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,319 Speaker 1: can find this podcast on the Internet and all of 946 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,759 Speaker 1: its sources. I'm behind the Bastards dot com. You can 947 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,240 Speaker 1: find us on Twitter and the Graham, as the kids 948 00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,719 Speaker 1: call it these days. At at Bastards Pod, I have 949 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: a book called A Brief History of Ice, where I 950 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:48,080 Speaker 1: hurt my friends with dangerous drugs until Thursday. Roger Stone