1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:23,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin. One of my favorite parts of hosting this podcast 2 00:00:23,676 --> 00:00:25,836 Speaker 1: is getting so many of your questions about how to 3 00:00:25,876 --> 00:00:28,156 Speaker 1: stay happy. And one of the kinds of questions I 4 00:00:28,236 --> 00:00:31,676 Speaker 1: keep getting over and over again, especially right now, is 5 00:00:31,716 --> 00:00:34,916 Speaker 1: about happiness and change, things like how can we make 6 00:00:35,036 --> 00:00:37,916 Speaker 1: changes that actually stick, or how can we stay happy 7 00:00:37,956 --> 00:00:40,676 Speaker 1: through hard life changes that come our way, or how 8 00:00:40,676 --> 00:00:43,116 Speaker 1: can we deal with the collective happiness changes that are 9 00:00:43,116 --> 00:00:45,676 Speaker 1: happening in this transformative time that we're all going through 10 00:00:45,716 --> 00:00:48,236 Speaker 1: in the midst of this pandemic. And so with all 11 00:00:48,276 --> 00:00:50,036 Speaker 1: these questions, I thought I would be best if I 12 00:00:50,076 --> 00:00:53,396 Speaker 1: called in an expert on change for this special bonus episode, 13 00:00:53,476 --> 00:00:56,396 Speaker 1: and so I'm super excited to welcome back behavior Change expert, 14 00:00:56,436 --> 00:00:59,356 Speaker 1: extraordinary host of one of my favorite new podcasts, A 15 00:00:59,356 --> 00:01:03,316 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans, and my former student, Maya Schunker. 16 00:01:03,716 --> 00:01:05,516 Speaker 1: It's so much fun to be here, Lari. Great to 17 00:01:05,556 --> 00:01:09,396 Speaker 1: see you. So you are back on the Happy Veness 18 00:01:09,436 --> 00:01:11,716 Speaker 1: Lab a bit ago before, and the last time you 19 00:01:11,756 --> 00:01:13,916 Speaker 1: were here on the Happiness Lab, we talked briefly about 20 00:01:13,916 --> 00:01:16,596 Speaker 1: how you get interested in the psychology of change, and 21 00:01:16,676 --> 00:01:19,596 Speaker 1: so I wonder if you'd quickly share that story again 22 00:01:19,636 --> 00:01:22,156 Speaker 1: for me. I think it'll help listeners really understand how 23 00:01:22,196 --> 00:01:25,316 Speaker 1: you get interested in the kind of like studying behavior 24 00:01:25,396 --> 00:01:28,676 Speaker 1: change and how it's really affected you personally. So yeah, 25 00:01:28,716 --> 00:01:30,676 Speaker 1: so how did you get interested in change? Yeah? I 26 00:01:30,716 --> 00:01:33,676 Speaker 1: definitely had a very formative experience with change. When I 27 00:01:33,756 --> 00:01:36,756 Speaker 1: was six years old, I started playing the violin, and 28 00:01:36,836 --> 00:01:40,356 Speaker 1: I became so passionate about the instrument, and it very 29 00:01:40,516 --> 00:01:44,636 Speaker 1: quickly became my goal to become a professional violinist. And 30 00:01:44,716 --> 00:01:47,076 Speaker 1: so when I was nine years old, I started studying 31 00:01:47,156 --> 00:01:50,116 Speaker 1: at the Juilliard School of Music in New York. And 32 00:01:50,476 --> 00:01:53,836 Speaker 1: when I was in high school, it's a perlman who's considered, 33 00:01:53,876 --> 00:01:55,756 Speaker 1: you know, one of the greatest violinists of our time, 34 00:01:55,876 --> 00:01:58,756 Speaker 1: asked me to be his private violin student, and so 35 00:01:58,796 --> 00:02:01,636 Speaker 1: I was on the speed train Laurie to becoming hopefully 36 00:02:02,236 --> 00:02:05,516 Speaker 1: a professional violinist. And I would say all of my 37 00:02:05,596 --> 00:02:08,876 Speaker 1: eggs were in that basket. I felt like my identity 38 00:02:09,276 --> 00:02:13,436 Speaker 1: first and foremost a violinist. And then when I was fifteen, 39 00:02:14,076 --> 00:02:17,916 Speaker 1: I experienced a sudden hand injury that fully derailed my 40 00:02:17,996 --> 00:02:21,436 Speaker 1: career and basically ended it overnight, and I was forced 41 00:02:21,476 --> 00:02:25,236 Speaker 1: to reassess who I was, you know, up until that point, 42 00:02:25,396 --> 00:02:28,036 Speaker 1: I had only seen myself as a violinist. Like if 43 00:02:28,036 --> 00:02:29,356 Speaker 1: you had asked me who I was at that point, 44 00:02:29,396 --> 00:02:31,356 Speaker 1: I would have said, first that I was a violinist, 45 00:02:31,516 --> 00:02:34,996 Speaker 1: and second that I was Maya. And I just didn't 46 00:02:35,116 --> 00:02:37,836 Speaker 1: know where to go from there because it felt like 47 00:02:37,876 --> 00:02:40,556 Speaker 1: such a fixed part of who I was. And there's 48 00:02:40,596 --> 00:02:43,636 Speaker 1: interesting research and cognitive science that talks about this phenomenon. 49 00:02:43,636 --> 00:02:46,916 Speaker 1: It's called identity foreclosure, and it refers to the idea 50 00:02:47,076 --> 00:02:50,916 Speaker 1: that in adolescence, certainly, but it can carry through into adulthood. 51 00:02:51,276 --> 00:02:54,716 Speaker 1: We can get very settled in a very specific identity, 52 00:02:55,396 --> 00:02:58,836 Speaker 1: and the consequence of that is it prevents us from 53 00:02:58,876 --> 00:03:02,836 Speaker 1: having an exploratory frame of mind, from allowing ourselves to 54 00:03:02,876 --> 00:03:06,796 Speaker 1: inhabit other spaces, other identities, other roles, and to pursue 55 00:03:06,836 --> 00:03:11,836 Speaker 1: other passions. And I have resolutely fell prey to identity foreclosure. 56 00:03:11,956 --> 00:03:14,436 Speaker 1: It felt like I fully lost myself in the process. 57 00:03:14,636 --> 00:03:17,316 Speaker 1: And you know, we can talk more about how my 58 00:03:17,436 --> 00:03:20,556 Speaker 1: psychology has changed over this whole period of time, but 59 00:03:21,236 --> 00:03:23,756 Speaker 1: the biggest lesson that I learned from that whole experience 60 00:03:23,836 --> 00:03:26,276 Speaker 1: is that I had to see my identity as more malleable, 61 00:03:26,716 --> 00:03:30,956 Speaker 1: as extending beyond any specific pursuit, and so this is 62 00:03:30,996 --> 00:03:33,076 Speaker 1: so important. One of the reasons I love your story 63 00:03:33,076 --> 00:03:34,556 Speaker 1: of changed so much. I mean, one reason I love 64 00:03:34,596 --> 00:03:36,196 Speaker 1: your story of changes that it brought you to me. 65 00:03:36,236 --> 00:03:37,636 Speaker 1: It brought you to my lab, and that's how we 66 00:03:37,676 --> 00:03:40,516 Speaker 1: got to know each other. But it also shows just 67 00:03:40,596 --> 00:03:43,996 Speaker 1: so many of these misconceptions that we have about identity 68 00:03:44,116 --> 00:03:47,076 Speaker 1: and change and change and happiness. Right, you know, all 69 00:03:47,116 --> 00:03:49,556 Speaker 1: of my happiness Lab listeners know that I'm constantly talking 70 00:03:49,556 --> 00:03:51,676 Speaker 1: about the ways that our minds lie to us in 71 00:03:51,756 --> 00:03:53,716 Speaker 1: terms of the kinds of things that make us happy. 72 00:03:54,116 --> 00:03:56,396 Speaker 1: And I think the kind of misconception you're talking about 73 00:03:56,476 --> 00:03:59,916 Speaker 1: is important. This idea that our identity is fixed. It 74 00:03:59,956 --> 00:04:03,676 Speaker 1: fits with what psychologist Dan Gilbert talks about with an 75 00:04:03,716 --> 00:04:06,636 Speaker 1: illusion known as the end of history illusion. The deal is, 76 00:04:06,676 --> 00:04:08,236 Speaker 1: if you ask people, hey, how much do you think 77 00:04:08,236 --> 00:04:10,516 Speaker 1: you're going to change in the next ten years, most 78 00:04:10,516 --> 00:04:13,036 Speaker 1: people say, well, you know, not so much, right, Like, 79 00:04:13,076 --> 00:04:15,396 Speaker 1: my core identity is sort of fixed, my history has 80 00:04:15,436 --> 00:04:18,036 Speaker 1: kind of ended. But if you ask people how much 81 00:04:18,276 --> 00:04:21,036 Speaker 1: have you changed, like as of the last ten years, 82 00:04:21,036 --> 00:04:22,916 Speaker 1: like in the last decade, how much of you change? 83 00:04:22,956 --> 00:04:26,716 Speaker 1: People usually say a lot. And so the funny thing 84 00:04:26,756 --> 00:04:28,876 Speaker 1: is we tend not to notice our own changes. We 85 00:04:28,916 --> 00:04:31,756 Speaker 1: tend to have this belief that we're like stopped definitely, 86 00:04:31,916 --> 00:04:34,276 Speaker 1: But the research really shows that we're that we're kind 87 00:04:34,276 --> 00:04:37,356 Speaker 1: of more malleable than we think. And the other reason 88 00:04:37,436 --> 00:04:39,996 Speaker 1: I love this story is it shows a different misconception 89 00:04:39,996 --> 00:04:43,076 Speaker 1: about the mind that I think is incredibly powerful, which 90 00:04:43,116 --> 00:04:46,676 Speaker 1: is this idea about the nature of identity change, like 91 00:04:46,796 --> 00:04:49,756 Speaker 1: how it works, right. You know, there's this sense that 92 00:04:49,796 --> 00:04:52,236 Speaker 1: people think you have to have this like crazy brain 93 00:04:52,276 --> 00:04:56,796 Speaker 1: altering experience to experience some change that will change your identity. 94 00:04:56,836 --> 00:04:59,276 Speaker 1: I know on your podcast you've talked to people who've 95 00:04:59,276 --> 00:05:02,476 Speaker 1: looked at these changes in the context of like psychedelic experiences. 96 00:05:02,516 --> 00:05:06,476 Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I mean, first of all, 97 00:05:06,516 --> 00:05:09,116 Speaker 1: on the point of the end of history illusion absolute, 98 00:05:09,476 --> 00:05:12,676 Speaker 1: I think we can all relate to the experience of 99 00:05:13,356 --> 00:05:16,476 Speaker 1: hearing a clip of you talking when you're a teenager 100 00:05:16,596 --> 00:05:18,276 Speaker 1: or when you're in your twenties, or seeing a picture 101 00:05:18,276 --> 00:05:21,196 Speaker 1: and thinking, oh my god, how is that me? I 102 00:05:21,196 --> 00:05:24,396 Speaker 1: don't even relate to this person, And then you suddenly realize, 103 00:05:24,636 --> 00:05:27,196 Speaker 1: am I going to think this way about myself right now? 104 00:05:27,236 --> 00:05:30,596 Speaker 1: In ten years? And that inevitably is the case, right. 105 00:05:30,636 --> 00:05:34,316 Speaker 1: We can feel so much distance between our current cells 106 00:05:34,316 --> 00:05:36,436 Speaker 1: and our past cells, but like you said, in real time, 107 00:05:36,476 --> 00:05:39,756 Speaker 1: we always underestimate how much change and how much growth 108 00:05:39,796 --> 00:05:43,036 Speaker 1: will happen in the years ahead. And you're absolutely right 109 00:05:43,076 --> 00:05:45,716 Speaker 1: on the topic of psychedelics. I mean, I think what's 110 00:05:45,756 --> 00:05:49,076 Speaker 1: so interesting is that as humans, we are both averse 111 00:05:49,196 --> 00:05:51,636 Speaker 1: to change, we're scared by it, but then we also 112 00:05:51,796 --> 00:05:54,276 Speaker 1: seek it out in these really profound ways, which is 113 00:05:54,276 --> 00:05:58,516 Speaker 1: why we've seen a surge and interest in doing psychedelics. 114 00:05:58,516 --> 00:06:00,476 Speaker 1: And you know, there's a lot of medical research going 115 00:06:00,476 --> 00:06:02,796 Speaker 1: on and how psychedelics can help people. I think the 116 00:06:02,836 --> 00:06:05,276 Speaker 1: reassuring thing for those of us who don't want to 117 00:06:05,276 --> 00:06:09,556 Speaker 1: do psychedelics, myself included, is that you can achieve found 118 00:06:09,636 --> 00:06:13,156 Speaker 1: change through other means in your life. I mean, the 119 00:06:13,236 --> 00:06:16,276 Speaker 1: first way is that you can understand that it is 120 00:06:16,316 --> 00:06:20,476 Speaker 1: absolutely a misconception that our personality stop changing after the 121 00:06:20,476 --> 00:06:23,476 Speaker 1: age of thirty. This is a finding that's just floating 122 00:06:23,476 --> 00:06:26,796 Speaker 1: around out there, but it's since been disproven through large studies, 123 00:06:27,076 --> 00:06:30,716 Speaker 1: and what they find is that personality traits they continue 124 00:06:30,756 --> 00:06:34,556 Speaker 1: to change gradually and systematically throughout the course of your life, 125 00:06:34,556 --> 00:06:39,436 Speaker 1: and that things like conscientiousness and agreeableness and other key 126 00:06:39,516 --> 00:06:44,196 Speaker 1: personality traits increase as you get older. Traits like neuroticism 127 00:06:44,356 --> 00:06:48,236 Speaker 1: decrease as you get older, which is great, and it 128 00:06:48,236 --> 00:06:52,316 Speaker 1: can signal, right that their maturity is increasing. And I 129 00:06:52,356 --> 00:06:56,276 Speaker 1: always have found it so promising that naturally, right, we 130 00:06:56,356 --> 00:06:58,916 Speaker 1: might become better versions of ourselves just through the natural 131 00:06:58,956 --> 00:07:02,076 Speaker 1: aging process. That's already very reassuring, I think. And then 132 00:07:02,116 --> 00:07:03,916 Speaker 1: we also know, and you can talk more about this, 133 00:07:03,956 --> 00:07:08,796 Speaker 1: but transformative experiences can alter us in ways that rival 134 00:07:09,196 --> 00:07:11,636 Speaker 1: you know, the best version of a psychedelic experience, and 135 00:07:11,676 --> 00:07:15,876 Speaker 1: we can actually grow profoundly even from traumatic experiences. Yeah, 136 00:07:15,916 --> 00:07:17,916 Speaker 1: I want to kind of talk more about this idea 137 00:07:17,916 --> 00:07:20,956 Speaker 1: of transformative experiences because I find it so profound, right, 138 00:07:21,196 --> 00:07:23,676 Speaker 1: you know, the personality changes you were just talking about 139 00:07:23,716 --> 00:07:25,836 Speaker 1: are really gradual, you know, the kind of thing we 140 00:07:25,916 --> 00:07:28,636 Speaker 1: might not even notice unless we were carefully sampling you know, 141 00:07:28,716 --> 00:07:33,036 Speaker 1: what happened to our agreeableness or neuroticism. But transformative experiences 142 00:07:33,196 --> 00:07:34,876 Speaker 1: is a concept that has been developed by one of 143 00:07:34,876 --> 00:07:37,796 Speaker 1: my colleagues here at Yale, Laurie Paul, the philosopher. You know, 144 00:07:37,796 --> 00:07:41,196 Speaker 1: she talks about these moments where you have like profound 145 00:07:41,236 --> 00:07:44,636 Speaker 1: and transformative change in so many aspects of your identity, 146 00:07:44,676 --> 00:07:47,716 Speaker 1: like what you think of as your identity, your preferences, 147 00:07:47,836 --> 00:07:50,196 Speaker 1: what you want out of life, what you consider important 148 00:07:50,236 --> 00:07:52,836 Speaker 1: in life. And they happen at these kind of like 149 00:07:53,316 --> 00:07:57,796 Speaker 1: moments that are big but also pretty regular, pretty mundane. Right, So, 150 00:07:57,956 --> 00:08:00,236 Speaker 1: going to college, you know, as you know probably my 151 00:08:00,396 --> 00:08:02,876 Speaker 1: I watch you like, yeah, this transformed experience. Right, You're 152 00:08:02,876 --> 00:08:04,956 Speaker 1: a different person after you go to college than not. Right, 153 00:08:04,996 --> 00:08:08,516 Speaker 1: getting married, having a baby, switching a job. Right, all 154 00:08:08,516 --> 00:08:11,356 Speaker 1: of these things are cases where you just like kind 155 00:08:11,396 --> 00:08:13,956 Speaker 1: of change your preferences. And one of the things that 156 00:08:14,036 --> 00:08:16,196 Speaker 1: Laurie Paul talks about, which is I think pretty cool, 157 00:08:16,356 --> 00:08:18,756 Speaker 1: is that you know, before you make the change, you 158 00:08:18,836 --> 00:08:21,956 Speaker 1: might not know what those preferences are. Right If I ask, 159 00:08:22,156 --> 00:08:24,676 Speaker 1: like violin playing maya, you know, like do you like 160 00:08:24,756 --> 00:08:28,116 Speaker 1: cognitive science? Like you know, do you want to run experiments? 161 00:08:28,156 --> 00:08:29,876 Speaker 1: Do you want to have a podcast? Like? It might 162 00:08:29,916 --> 00:08:32,116 Speaker 1: not even those questions might not even have made sense 163 00:08:32,196 --> 00:08:34,276 Speaker 1: to you, right. You know the same thing like before 164 00:08:34,276 --> 00:08:36,156 Speaker 1: you get married, you know, what will you think of 165 00:08:36,156 --> 00:08:38,356 Speaker 1: about other people? You know, what your preferences for what 166 00:08:38,396 --> 00:08:40,676 Speaker 1: you do on a weekend? Look like, right, you just 167 00:08:40,876 --> 00:08:44,276 Speaker 1: can't expect what's going to happen afterwards. But then after 168 00:08:44,316 --> 00:08:47,876 Speaker 1: this life change, preferences are different, your biases are different, 169 00:08:47,916 --> 00:08:50,556 Speaker 1: You're just a different person. The crazy thing is, these 170 00:08:50,556 --> 00:08:53,476 Speaker 1: transformative experiences happen to us all the time, and it's 171 00:08:53,516 --> 00:08:56,636 Speaker 1: the kind of thing you've seen on your show A bunch, right, absolutely, 172 00:08:56,676 --> 00:08:59,636 Speaker 1: And I would add to that, in addition to going 173 00:08:59,676 --> 00:09:02,956 Speaker 1: to college, marriage, those sorts of things constituting these big moments, 174 00:09:03,276 --> 00:09:06,396 Speaker 1: negative experiences too can lead to the same results. And 175 00:09:06,476 --> 00:09:09,436 Speaker 1: so I would say to listeners of this, even if 176 00:09:09,436 --> 00:09:11,436 Speaker 1: it's a negative change, even if you're perceiving as a 177 00:09:11,476 --> 00:09:14,756 Speaker 1: negative change, you can still emerge with some of these 178 00:09:14,836 --> 00:09:17,996 Speaker 1: profound changes. And to your point, Laurie, absolutely, I mean, 179 00:09:18,036 --> 00:09:20,396 Speaker 1: I think you and I both studying this field. No 180 00:09:20,516 --> 00:09:22,556 Speaker 1: all the time that our mind plays tricks on us, 181 00:09:22,596 --> 00:09:26,236 Speaker 1: and we never have a full understanding of who we 182 00:09:26,276 --> 00:09:28,756 Speaker 1: are at any given moment in time, right, Because in 183 00:09:28,796 --> 00:09:31,636 Speaker 1: the face of a change, I'm predicting how I'm going 184 00:09:31,676 --> 00:09:34,796 Speaker 1: to respond based on only the data points I have 185 00:09:34,876 --> 00:09:37,636 Speaker 1: about myself up until that point in time, right, I 186 00:09:37,676 --> 00:09:40,876 Speaker 1: don't know all these other parts of my personality that 187 00:09:40,916 --> 00:09:42,836 Speaker 1: I might not have tapped into or all these other 188 00:09:42,876 --> 00:09:44,956 Speaker 1: aspects of my resilience that I might not have tapped 189 00:09:44,996 --> 00:09:48,036 Speaker 1: into until that moment appeared. I think that's why, in part, 190 00:09:48,036 --> 00:09:51,356 Speaker 1: we're bad cognitive forecasters, because we're working with limited data 191 00:09:51,396 --> 00:09:54,276 Speaker 1: on ourselves, and sometimes these change moments can really help 192 00:09:54,356 --> 00:09:58,516 Speaker 1: us appreciate the full range of reactions and emotions that 193 00:09:58,516 --> 00:10:00,636 Speaker 1: we can experience in the face of a change. With 194 00:10:00,636 --> 00:10:03,356 Speaker 1: respect to a slight change of plans, I have found 195 00:10:03,596 --> 00:10:07,796 Speaker 1: reliably that people don't know actually what to expect in 196 00:10:07,836 --> 00:10:10,876 Speaker 1: the face of a change. And in advance of this podcast, 197 00:10:10,956 --> 00:10:12,716 Speaker 1: I think if someone came to me and said, Maya, 198 00:10:12,756 --> 00:10:14,956 Speaker 1: what would you what would advice would you give to 199 00:10:14,996 --> 00:10:17,516 Speaker 1: someone who's going through a change, I would have said, well, 200 00:10:17,556 --> 00:10:20,156 Speaker 1: I would give different advice to someone based on whether 201 00:10:20,196 --> 00:10:23,316 Speaker 1: it was a wanted or unwanted change, right, a willed 202 00:10:23,396 --> 00:10:26,596 Speaker 1: or unwilled change. And I realized by making a slight 203 00:10:26,676 --> 00:10:29,236 Speaker 1: change of plans that that framework was totally off. And 204 00:10:29,276 --> 00:10:32,956 Speaker 1: the reason for that is there are so many unexpected 205 00:10:32,956 --> 00:10:37,836 Speaker 1: consequences of a change that occur that we can't possibly anticipate. 206 00:10:38,036 --> 00:10:39,756 Speaker 1: You know, we like to think of change happening in 207 00:10:39,796 --> 00:10:42,876 Speaker 1: the vacuum right, I'm going to be exactly Maya. It's 208 00:10:42,916 --> 00:10:45,036 Speaker 1: just that this one thing about me is going to change. 209 00:10:45,156 --> 00:10:47,596 Speaker 1: But that's just not how the human experience works, right. 210 00:10:47,636 --> 00:10:51,476 Speaker 1: We are these intricate ecosystems where change in one area 211 00:10:51,476 --> 00:10:54,236 Speaker 1: of our lives has these profound spillovers into other parts 212 00:10:54,236 --> 00:10:56,636 Speaker 1: of our lives, and we just can't anticipate, like I 213 00:10:56,636 --> 00:10:59,596 Speaker 1: said before, all the ways in which it might impact us. 214 00:11:00,036 --> 00:11:02,316 Speaker 1: So a good example of this is I interviewed a 215 00:11:02,356 --> 00:11:05,396 Speaker 1: guy named Scott. He's in his early thirties. He's a 216 00:11:05,436 --> 00:11:08,876 Speaker 1: cancer researcher, and he got a stage four cancer diagnosis 217 00:11:09,316 --> 00:11:13,316 Speaker 1: during quarantine, and this was his worst nightmare come true 218 00:11:13,356 --> 00:11:16,316 Speaker 1: because unlike you and me, Laurie, he was a health nut. 219 00:11:16,956 --> 00:11:20,276 Speaker 1: And you know, he was doing high intensity interval training, 220 00:11:20,396 --> 00:11:22,876 Speaker 1: intermittent fasting. I don't even know what that is. I 221 00:11:22,916 --> 00:11:25,636 Speaker 1: can't do that. He was adding turmeric to his food, 222 00:11:25,796 --> 00:11:28,796 Speaker 1: eating chia seeds by the handful. Like this guy was 223 00:11:28,836 --> 00:11:32,676 Speaker 1: super into preserving his body right and reducing what he 224 00:11:32,716 --> 00:11:35,396 Speaker 1: calls diminishment. And then he gets his stage four cancer 225 00:11:35,436 --> 00:11:38,356 Speaker 1: diagnosis and it's his worst fear come true. And yet 226 00:11:38,396 --> 00:11:40,636 Speaker 1: when I interviewed him and I talked to him, he said, 227 00:11:41,596 --> 00:11:44,276 Speaker 1: you know, I think I'm actually a better person and 228 00:11:44,796 --> 00:11:50,076 Speaker 1: that the emotional thermostat has persevered, which is so profound. Right, 229 00:11:50,396 --> 00:11:53,916 Speaker 1: he violated his own expectations. He thought for sure that 230 00:11:53,916 --> 00:11:55,756 Speaker 1: this would be the absolute worst thing that happened to me. 231 00:11:55,796 --> 00:11:58,236 Speaker 1: But I'm sitting here, you know, six months into my 232 00:11:58,316 --> 00:12:02,676 Speaker 1: chemotherapy treatments, having had multiple surgeries, including amputating my leg, 233 00:12:02,956 --> 00:12:06,516 Speaker 1: and I'm sitting here feeling gratitude for the fact that 234 00:12:07,076 --> 00:12:10,196 Speaker 1: I feel more or less as happy as I did before. 235 00:12:10,396 --> 00:12:12,956 Speaker 1: I mean, it's so incredible, right, you know. I mean 236 00:12:12,996 --> 00:12:16,596 Speaker 1: it's something that's been documented obviously by psychological research. On 237 00:12:16,596 --> 00:12:19,396 Speaker 1: the happiness Lab. We've talked about this idea of what's 238 00:12:19,436 --> 00:12:21,996 Speaker 1: called the psychological immune system, right, like, just like we 239 00:12:22,036 --> 00:12:24,516 Speaker 1: have an immune system that will fight disease. You know, 240 00:12:24,556 --> 00:12:27,356 Speaker 1: physical disease is viruses and so on, so too, do 241 00:12:27,396 --> 00:12:30,436 Speaker 1: we have a psychological immune system that will fight when 242 00:12:30,596 --> 00:12:33,276 Speaker 1: bad things come up? Right, It'll fight the bad consequences, 243 00:12:33,276 --> 00:12:35,876 Speaker 1: will rationalize our decision, or we'll see some meaning in it, 244 00:12:35,956 --> 00:12:38,756 Speaker 1: or we'll seek out resources, seek out social support. You know. 245 00:12:38,756 --> 00:12:41,636 Speaker 1: The psychological immune system means that bad things aren't as 246 00:12:41,676 --> 00:12:44,276 Speaker 1: bad as we think, but it still feels like the 247 00:12:44,316 --> 00:12:48,036 Speaker 1: worst possible thing you imagine happening happening would be bad 248 00:12:48,116 --> 00:12:50,516 Speaker 1: and it would suck, and you wouldn't react with gratitude. 249 00:12:50,556 --> 00:12:52,916 Speaker 1: But the amazing thing about our minds is that that's 250 00:12:52,996 --> 00:12:55,236 Speaker 1: just not the case. It's just yet another spot where 251 00:12:55,276 --> 00:12:58,516 Speaker 1: we're forecasting that change is going to feel awful, but 252 00:12:58,596 --> 00:13:00,836 Speaker 1: like it's not always as bad as we think. It's 253 00:13:00,836 --> 00:13:04,276 Speaker 1: so profound, it is profound. Another trait that I've seen 254 00:13:04,876 --> 00:13:06,916 Speaker 1: emerge in almost all of my guests, and I've seen 255 00:13:07,076 --> 00:13:09,396 Speaker 1: kicking for me psychologically in the face of an want 256 00:13:09,436 --> 00:13:14,596 Speaker 1: to change is to irresistibly want to build stories out 257 00:13:14,596 --> 00:13:18,876 Speaker 1: of our experiences, to build narratives and find ways to 258 00:13:18,996 --> 00:13:21,036 Speaker 1: make sense of the things that have happened to us. 259 00:13:21,036 --> 00:13:25,316 Speaker 1: And this is true irrespective of religious beliefs, spiritual beliefs, right. 260 00:13:25,476 --> 00:13:27,676 Speaker 1: I find this across the board, you know, believers and 261 00:13:27,756 --> 00:13:31,116 Speaker 1: nonbelievers alike. And you know, in talking with Scott, he 262 00:13:31,156 --> 00:13:33,076 Speaker 1: was saying, you know, I don't happen to believe things 263 00:13:33,116 --> 00:13:35,036 Speaker 1: happen for a reason. I don't happen to have any 264 00:13:35,596 --> 00:13:38,636 Speaker 1: spiritual beliefs to guide me through this process. But in 265 00:13:38,676 --> 00:13:41,316 Speaker 1: my mind, I almost need to justify this, right, I 266 00:13:41,356 --> 00:13:43,676 Speaker 1: need to make sense of what is otherwise a fully 267 00:13:43,756 --> 00:13:46,236 Speaker 1: random system. And so what he was telling me was, 268 00:13:46,676 --> 00:13:48,876 Speaker 1: you know, if my body is going to deteriorate in 269 00:13:48,916 --> 00:13:51,676 Speaker 1: this way, at least my personality needs to become better. 270 00:13:51,836 --> 00:13:54,396 Speaker 1: And so he worked really hard at becoming a more 271 00:13:54,396 --> 00:13:58,396 Speaker 1: empathetic person, becoming a better listener, showing more compassion towards 272 00:13:58,676 --> 00:14:01,916 Speaker 1: himself and others. And I just find and again, I 273 00:14:01,956 --> 00:14:05,316 Speaker 1: hope this is reassuring to listeners that we just irresistibly 274 00:14:05,356 --> 00:14:08,276 Speaker 1: as humans, right, narratives about our lives and our stories 275 00:14:08,316 --> 00:14:11,036 Speaker 1: and can bring you comfort in those moments because no 276 00:14:11,076 --> 00:14:12,916 Speaker 1: matter what happens to you, you will try to find 277 00:14:13,036 --> 00:14:15,636 Speaker 1: some meaning or purpose in it. And this is you know, again, 278 00:14:15,676 --> 00:14:17,716 Speaker 1: you know, right out of the research playbook, right, you know, 279 00:14:17,716 --> 00:14:21,036 Speaker 1: it comes from some fantastic work by researchers like Jamie 280 00:14:21,036 --> 00:14:23,956 Speaker 1: Pennybaker and his colleagues right where he just finds that 281 00:14:23,996 --> 00:14:26,636 Speaker 1: if you're going through something really difficult, especially if you 282 00:14:26,716 --> 00:14:28,876 Speaker 1: know right now a listener is in the midst of 283 00:14:28,916 --> 00:14:31,596 Speaker 1: a change, you know, sit down and actually journal it. 284 00:14:31,636 --> 00:14:34,196 Speaker 1: If that process of sense making and meaning making and 285 00:14:34,316 --> 00:14:37,956 Speaker 1: narrative making isn't happening naturally, you can engage it right, 286 00:14:38,036 --> 00:14:40,436 Speaker 1: just sit down and start journaling about it, and you'd 287 00:14:40,476 --> 00:14:43,036 Speaker 1: be surprised how quickly this sense making kind of takes 288 00:14:43,076 --> 00:14:45,716 Speaker 1: the four It's one way if you're having trouble going 289 00:14:45,796 --> 00:14:47,676 Speaker 1: through a change, that you really can kind of fast 290 00:14:47,716 --> 00:14:50,596 Speaker 1: forward some of that sense making process. But your story 291 00:14:50,636 --> 00:14:52,356 Speaker 1: is about all these kinds of cases, you know, to 292 00:14:52,516 --> 00:14:53,876 Speaker 1: tell me a lot of things. Right. It tells me 293 00:14:53,956 --> 00:14:56,196 Speaker 1: like change is happening, like whether we want it or not, 294 00:14:56,276 --> 00:14:58,276 Speaker 1: you know, especially right now, in the midst of everything 295 00:14:58,276 --> 00:15:02,116 Speaker 1: that's going on, it sometimes happened and without us realizing it, right, 296 00:15:02,156 --> 00:15:05,196 Speaker 1: you know, we can accidentally step into a transformative experience 297 00:15:05,236 --> 00:15:07,516 Speaker 1: without knowing it. And that means that I think we 298 00:15:07,636 --> 00:15:10,916 Speaker 1: need some like advice for how to deal with changes, right, 299 00:15:10,916 --> 00:15:12,996 Speaker 1: like how do we deal with this? And from a 300 00:15:13,036 --> 00:15:15,636 Speaker 1: happiness perspective, how do we best use these moments of 301 00:15:15,716 --> 00:15:18,836 Speaker 1: change to improve our well being? And one piece of 302 00:15:18,876 --> 00:15:21,076 Speaker 1: advice that I know you've given before and that you've 303 00:15:21,396 --> 00:15:23,916 Speaker 1: taken on through your own changes in your own life, 304 00:15:24,316 --> 00:15:26,836 Speaker 1: is that you need to recognize that you shouldn't get 305 00:15:26,876 --> 00:15:30,036 Speaker 1: wedded to one particular pursuit or how you're framing the 306 00:15:30,076 --> 00:15:31,876 Speaker 1: things that you really enjoy in life, you might be 307 00:15:31,916 --> 00:15:34,396 Speaker 1: able to think about a little bit flexibly and so 308 00:15:34,516 --> 00:15:36,236 Speaker 1: talk about you know, how this played out in the 309 00:15:36,276 --> 00:15:39,556 Speaker 1: context of your violin playing when that change happened. You know, 310 00:15:39,556 --> 00:15:41,116 Speaker 1: how did you kind of come to terms with the 311 00:15:41,156 --> 00:15:44,436 Speaker 1: pursuit you were really going after that you didn't realize. Yeah, 312 00:15:44,476 --> 00:15:46,516 Speaker 1: So going back to you know, the age of fifteen, 313 00:15:46,556 --> 00:15:48,956 Speaker 1: as I mentioned, I was absolutely devastated in the face 314 00:15:48,956 --> 00:15:50,996 Speaker 1: of this loss, and I didn't really know how to 315 00:15:51,036 --> 00:15:53,196 Speaker 1: pick up the pieces because I was thinking to myself, 316 00:15:53,716 --> 00:15:56,956 Speaker 1: I literally lost the thing that I'm completely in love with. 317 00:15:57,716 --> 00:16:00,596 Speaker 1: And I think, in hindsight, what I've learned is that 318 00:16:01,236 --> 00:16:03,716 Speaker 1: it can be really helpful to try to identify the 319 00:16:03,756 --> 00:16:06,676 Speaker 1: features of the pursuit that you really enjoyed, rather than 320 00:16:06,716 --> 00:16:09,436 Speaker 1: focusing too much on the thing itself. So I think 321 00:16:09,476 --> 00:16:10,796 Speaker 1: you had asked me as a young kid, what do 322 00:16:10,836 --> 00:16:13,356 Speaker 1: you love about the violin, I would have said to you, Oh, Laurie, 323 00:16:13,436 --> 00:16:15,876 Speaker 1: I love how it sounds and how it feels. And 324 00:16:16,556 --> 00:16:20,036 Speaker 1: I think in hindsight, what I've learned is that actually 325 00:16:20,476 --> 00:16:22,436 Speaker 1: what really got me to tick when it came to 326 00:16:22,476 --> 00:16:27,476 Speaker 1: the violin was forging an emotional connection with people. You know, 327 00:16:27,516 --> 00:16:29,836 Speaker 1: as a young kid, you go on stage, You're there's 328 00:16:29,836 --> 00:16:32,996 Speaker 1: thousands of strangers in the audience, right, no one's met anyone, 329 00:16:33,276 --> 00:16:36,556 Speaker 1: and within a moment, based on what you're playing, you 330 00:16:36,596 --> 00:16:39,396 Speaker 1: can make people feel something that they've never felt before. 331 00:16:39,836 --> 00:16:43,276 Speaker 1: And that is an incredibly empowering, intoxicating feeling, right to 332 00:16:43,356 --> 00:16:46,116 Speaker 1: have that kind of emotional connection with people. And so 333 00:16:46,156 --> 00:16:49,076 Speaker 1: what I learned from that is, oh, it's actually human 334 00:16:49,076 --> 00:16:51,916 Speaker 1: connection that gets me moving. Like Violin was an instrument 335 00:16:51,956 --> 00:16:55,036 Speaker 1: towards that. Oh gosh, me with the puns. They're all unintended, Okay. 336 00:16:55,716 --> 00:17:00,236 Speaker 1: Violin was a vehicle for me to achieve that desire 337 00:17:00,276 --> 00:17:03,116 Speaker 1: for human connection. But I found the through line over 338 00:17:03,156 --> 00:17:05,396 Speaker 1: the course of my career, which might seem very disparate 339 00:17:05,396 --> 00:17:09,596 Speaker 1: and not connected, is that I've been searching for or 340 00:17:09,756 --> 00:17:13,196 Speaker 1: human connection throughout And I did this by studying cognitive 341 00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:16,356 Speaker 1: science under your tutelage in undergrad and beyond, where I 342 00:17:16,396 --> 00:17:19,076 Speaker 1: was studying the human mind and understanding how it is 343 00:17:19,116 --> 00:17:22,596 Speaker 1: we even develop relationships with people and make decisions and 344 00:17:22,836 --> 00:17:25,116 Speaker 1: move about in this world and connect with one another. 345 00:17:25,156 --> 00:17:27,716 Speaker 1: And then through my podcast, a slight change of plans. Right. 346 00:17:28,116 --> 00:17:31,236 Speaker 1: It is the ultimate excuse where you can go in 347 00:17:31,276 --> 00:17:33,756 Speaker 1: your room with a person you'd never met and within 348 00:17:33,836 --> 00:17:37,196 Speaker 1: minutes you're talking about, you know, deeply personal parts of 349 00:17:37,196 --> 00:17:39,996 Speaker 1: your life and asking questions about how it is that 350 00:17:39,996 --> 00:17:41,756 Speaker 1: they've gone through things, and you are connecting on a 351 00:17:41,756 --> 00:17:45,276 Speaker 1: really deep level. So for those who have lost something 352 00:17:45,316 --> 00:17:47,356 Speaker 1: in their lives, right, and I know that twenty twenty 353 00:17:47,436 --> 00:17:50,036 Speaker 1: was filled with so much loss across the board, I 354 00:17:50,076 --> 00:17:52,356 Speaker 1: think it could be a really valuable exercise to take 355 00:17:52,356 --> 00:17:55,156 Speaker 1: a step back and say, what are the traits, what 356 00:17:55,196 --> 00:17:57,236 Speaker 1: are the features of the different things in my life 357 00:17:57,236 --> 00:17:59,716 Speaker 1: that bring me joy? And let me see if I 358 00:17:59,756 --> 00:18:03,516 Speaker 1: can construct that in other areas in other ways. And again, 359 00:18:03,596 --> 00:18:05,356 Speaker 1: you know, this is something that we know from a 360 00:18:05,356 --> 00:18:07,476 Speaker 1: lot of the research on the kinds of things that 361 00:18:07,516 --> 00:18:10,356 Speaker 1: make us happier. Right, you know so much fantastic work 362 00:18:10,396 --> 00:18:13,156 Speaker 1: by Marty Seligman and his colleagues on this idea of 363 00:18:13,276 --> 00:18:16,396 Speaker 1: character strengths. You know, these kinds of like values that 364 00:18:16,476 --> 00:18:18,436 Speaker 1: you have, strengths that you have, you know, the kinds 365 00:18:18,436 --> 00:18:19,996 Speaker 1: of things, as you said, Maya that kind of bring 366 00:18:20,076 --> 00:18:22,196 Speaker 1: you joy. And there are things like as you express, 367 00:18:22,276 --> 00:18:24,316 Speaker 1: like connecting with people you know, they could be things 368 00:18:24,356 --> 00:18:27,356 Speaker 1: like a love of learning, a sense of bravery, right, 369 00:18:27,436 --> 00:18:30,796 Speaker 1: you know, the idea that you're really pursuing creative pursuits, 370 00:18:30,796 --> 00:18:34,156 Speaker 1: even things like, you know, emotions like transcendence or spirituality. 371 00:18:34,276 --> 00:18:36,436 Speaker 1: Right Like, we all have these things that are the 372 00:18:36,436 --> 00:18:39,636 Speaker 1: things that get us going. And Seligman finds that if 373 00:18:39,676 --> 00:18:42,596 Speaker 1: you apply those things more in your life, whether that's 374 00:18:42,596 --> 00:18:45,436 Speaker 1: in your career and your relationships, you will just get 375 00:18:45,476 --> 00:18:48,356 Speaker 1: more joy out of it. It matters less the specific 376 00:18:48,436 --> 00:18:51,556 Speaker 1: job that you have or the specific activity you're engaging in, 377 00:18:51,836 --> 00:18:53,756 Speaker 1: and more that you kind of bring these traits out. 378 00:18:53,756 --> 00:18:56,116 Speaker 1: And he's these two examples I'd love to share. This. 379 00:18:56,156 --> 00:18:58,476 Speaker 1: One is an exercise that I have my students do 380 00:18:58,636 --> 00:19:02,636 Speaker 1: in class, which Seliman calls a strengths date, where you 381 00:19:02,636 --> 00:19:05,076 Speaker 1: pick a friend, you know, your spouse, a friend, and 382 00:19:05,156 --> 00:19:07,316 Speaker 1: you find these strengths that you really like. You know, 383 00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:09,796 Speaker 1: so for you would be like connecting with other people, 384 00:19:09,916 --> 00:19:12,076 Speaker 1: right like, how can you engage in some sort of 385 00:19:12,076 --> 00:19:14,716 Speaker 1: fun date night activity that lets you connect more with 386 00:19:14,756 --> 00:19:17,516 Speaker 1: other people. The idea is like you're not picking a 387 00:19:17,556 --> 00:19:20,876 Speaker 1: specific activity, You're just building this thing that's based on 388 00:19:20,916 --> 00:19:23,756 Speaker 1: the strengths and the values that you love. Another wonderful 389 00:19:23,796 --> 00:19:25,956 Speaker 1: exercise is to figure out how you can build these 390 00:19:25,996 --> 00:19:29,316 Speaker 1: strengths more into your career, right, Like, you might have 391 00:19:29,356 --> 00:19:32,596 Speaker 1: some particular job description, but can you shape your job 392 00:19:32,636 --> 00:19:35,876 Speaker 1: description more in the direction of the things you enjoy? Right, 393 00:19:35,996 --> 00:19:37,236 Speaker 1: you know? And I think this is one of the 394 00:19:37,236 --> 00:19:40,676 Speaker 1: reasons your podcast is so fantastic, is that it's obvious 395 00:19:40,676 --> 00:19:43,276 Speaker 1: how much you enjoy connecting with your guests and connecting 396 00:19:43,316 --> 00:19:45,916 Speaker 1: with your listeners. Right, It's obvious that's a strength of yours, 397 00:19:46,156 --> 00:19:47,956 Speaker 1: and it's so obvious that it brings you joy. But 398 00:19:48,036 --> 00:19:50,156 Speaker 1: we can all, even if you're not a podcaster, like 399 00:19:50,236 --> 00:19:52,596 Speaker 1: you can figure out ways to build in strengths in 400 00:19:52,596 --> 00:19:54,916 Speaker 1: your own life, which I find just so profound. I 401 00:19:54,996 --> 00:19:56,636 Speaker 1: love that so much. And I think you know, a 402 00:19:56,636 --> 00:19:58,236 Speaker 1: lot of times, when you are looking for a job, 403 00:19:58,316 --> 00:20:00,636 Speaker 1: or you're getting hired for a job, you're hiring manager 404 00:20:00,756 --> 00:20:03,036 Speaker 1: might not even know that they have so much to 405 00:20:03,076 --> 00:20:06,436 Speaker 1: benefit from these untapped into skills. Right. You know. You've 406 00:20:06,436 --> 00:20:08,396 Speaker 1: been in my life several times where I've written job 407 00:20:08,396 --> 00:20:11,676 Speaker 1: descriptions from scratch or for jobs that didn't exist that 408 00:20:11,756 --> 00:20:14,076 Speaker 1: I wanted to see happen, And it can be extremely 409 00:20:14,076 --> 00:20:17,996 Speaker 1: profound to say, in addition to the core traits you've articulated, 410 00:20:18,036 --> 00:20:19,996 Speaker 1: here are my superpowers, and here's what I plan to 411 00:20:20,036 --> 00:20:22,116 Speaker 1: bring to the job. Here's what I think could benefit 412 00:20:22,196 --> 00:20:24,636 Speaker 1: the role. You know. So that's kind of piece of advice. 413 00:20:24,716 --> 00:20:27,116 Speaker 1: Number one I think is like, you know, bringing in 414 00:20:27,156 --> 00:20:30,316 Speaker 1: these values, not necessarily wetting your identity to one thing, 415 00:20:30,356 --> 00:20:33,556 Speaker 1: but recognizing that your identity is really based on these 416 00:20:33,636 --> 00:20:36,356 Speaker 1: core kinds of strengths, these core kinds of values. You know. 417 00:20:36,396 --> 00:20:38,276 Speaker 1: A second piece of advice that I think comes from 418 00:20:38,316 --> 00:20:41,796 Speaker 1: your experience with change is this idea that you know, 419 00:20:42,076 --> 00:20:45,916 Speaker 1: we forget how resilient we are in the face of change. 420 00:20:45,916 --> 00:20:47,996 Speaker 1: You know, we just talked about all these examples where 421 00:20:48,036 --> 00:20:52,116 Speaker 1: people go through these awful, awful events and they're fine 422 00:20:52,476 --> 00:20:55,236 Speaker 1: or maybe better off for it. But the sad thing 423 00:20:55,276 --> 00:20:58,356 Speaker 1: is that we forget that bad change can be good. 424 00:20:58,396 --> 00:21:01,076 Speaker 1: We forget we're resilient enough to get through it. And 425 00:21:01,156 --> 00:21:03,676 Speaker 1: that means we don't like take on changes that might 426 00:21:03,716 --> 00:21:06,036 Speaker 1: be really beneficial to us because we're kind of scared 427 00:21:06,076 --> 00:21:08,156 Speaker 1: about how we're going to react to them. I think 428 00:21:08,156 --> 00:21:11,036 Speaker 1: that's right. I mean, so many of us face a 429 00:21:11,156 --> 00:21:13,876 Speaker 1: change of version of some kind, right because you know, 430 00:21:13,956 --> 00:21:15,996 Speaker 1: we have things like the status quo bias. It's very 431 00:21:16,036 --> 00:21:20,156 Speaker 1: comfortable to allow inertia to move us forward. But by 432 00:21:20,236 --> 00:21:22,836 Speaker 1: and large, every guest I've had on a slight change 433 00:21:22,836 --> 00:21:25,956 Speaker 1: of plans has been grateful in some way for having 434 00:21:25,996 --> 00:21:29,036 Speaker 1: had a big change happened to them, or having a 435 00:21:29,116 --> 00:21:32,756 Speaker 1: change that they inspired. And it's not because it always 436 00:21:32,836 --> 00:21:35,716 Speaker 1: turned out perfectly or even made them happier in the 437 00:21:35,756 --> 00:21:38,276 Speaker 1: short term. It's because it allowed them to grow in 438 00:21:38,356 --> 00:21:41,676 Speaker 1: some way and help them better understand who they are 439 00:21:41,756 --> 00:21:44,676 Speaker 1: and what they're capable of, and what their full potential is. 440 00:21:45,116 --> 00:21:47,676 Speaker 1: And I find that to be an empowering lesson because 441 00:21:47,676 --> 00:21:50,596 Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons why we can always 442 00:21:50,596 --> 00:21:54,276 Speaker 1: forget our own resilience is that there's this cognitive fallacy 443 00:21:54,316 --> 00:21:56,956 Speaker 1: that I feel we all have where when we're confronted 444 00:21:56,956 --> 00:22:00,676 Speaker 1: with a big change, we latch onto how novel the 445 00:22:00,836 --> 00:22:04,636 Speaker 1: specifics of that change feels. So in twenty twenty, for example, 446 00:22:04,636 --> 00:22:06,796 Speaker 1: with COVID, it was like, oh my gosh, this is 447 00:22:06,836 --> 00:22:09,796 Speaker 1: such an unprecedented thing to happen to all of us. 448 00:22:09,836 --> 00:22:11,676 Speaker 1: None of us know how to deal with this big change. 449 00:22:11,716 --> 00:22:15,996 Speaker 1: This is awful. But what helped me during twenty twenty 450 00:22:16,116 --> 00:22:19,476 Speaker 1: was realizing that while the specifics of what twenty twenty 451 00:22:19,516 --> 00:22:22,956 Speaker 1: through our way was unprecedented, our human ability to navigate 452 00:22:23,036 --> 00:22:26,796 Speaker 1: change is not unprecedented. We'd done this rodeo so many 453 00:22:26,836 --> 00:22:30,036 Speaker 1: times before, but the content has been different. Right, We 454 00:22:30,076 --> 00:22:32,916 Speaker 1: didn't maybe experienced it as a collective glow, But we've 455 00:22:32,956 --> 00:22:35,556 Speaker 1: all had changes in our personal lives that we've had 456 00:22:35,556 --> 00:22:37,836 Speaker 1: to navigate and we've come out the other side. And 457 00:22:37,916 --> 00:22:40,556 Speaker 1: so I think just reminding yourself in the face of 458 00:22:40,676 --> 00:22:43,876 Speaker 1: a change that is surprised to you and you're like, 459 00:22:43,916 --> 00:22:45,836 Speaker 1: I don't know how to deal with this specific change, 460 00:22:46,036 --> 00:22:49,236 Speaker 1: remember that in many ways, our psychologies are built for change, 461 00:22:49,676 --> 00:22:52,116 Speaker 1: and this is a universal set of features we all 462 00:22:52,156 --> 00:22:55,036 Speaker 1: share as human beings. And I think that recognizing that 463 00:22:55,076 --> 00:22:58,116 Speaker 1: we're built for change can help alleviate, you know, some 464 00:22:58,196 --> 00:23:00,476 Speaker 1: of the anxiety that comes with these big changes that 465 00:23:00,556 --> 00:23:02,516 Speaker 1: might be coming up, or changes that we might fear. 466 00:23:02,996 --> 00:23:05,596 Speaker 1: But I think recognizing that we're built for change gets 467 00:23:05,636 --> 00:23:07,276 Speaker 1: to kind of the last piece of advice that I 468 00:23:07,316 --> 00:23:09,996 Speaker 1: wanted to focus on, which is the idea that like, 469 00:23:10,156 --> 00:23:13,156 Speaker 1: we can change, right, you know, So if you're kind 470 00:23:13,196 --> 00:23:15,436 Speaker 1: of stuck in a rut in terms of your well being, 471 00:23:15,636 --> 00:23:18,076 Speaker 1: or engaging in habits that you're maybe not proud of, 472 00:23:18,156 --> 00:23:20,436 Speaker 1: or if you feel like you're not flourishing enough. I 473 00:23:20,436 --> 00:23:23,036 Speaker 1: think we can sometimes feel like, well, that's it, like 474 00:23:23,076 --> 00:23:25,356 Speaker 1: you know, this is how I am. I'm just stuck here. 475 00:23:25,836 --> 00:23:27,916 Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is that the entire 476 00:23:28,356 --> 00:23:32,236 Speaker 1: scientific literature shows that change is possible, especially change towards 477 00:23:32,316 --> 00:23:35,956 Speaker 1: experiences of more joy, more happiness, more flourishing, Like we 478 00:23:36,036 --> 00:23:38,956 Speaker 1: can actually change more than we think, even though we 479 00:23:38,996 --> 00:23:42,036 Speaker 1: don't realize it right absolutely, like you said, all of 480 00:23:42,076 --> 00:23:45,396 Speaker 1: the research and psychology can help support this. There's also 481 00:23:45,476 --> 00:23:49,396 Speaker 1: research in neuroscience showing just how plastic the brain remains 482 00:23:49,396 --> 00:23:51,956 Speaker 1: over the course of our lives. And what I love 483 00:23:51,956 --> 00:23:54,836 Speaker 1: about the Happiness lab and what I love about happiness 484 00:23:54,876 --> 00:23:58,156 Speaker 1: research is that it gives us so many tactical recommendations 485 00:23:58,196 --> 00:24:00,596 Speaker 1: of how we can introduce this kind of positive change 486 00:24:00,596 --> 00:24:03,676 Speaker 1: into our lives. My husband and I had a really 487 00:24:03,716 --> 00:24:07,596 Speaker 1: challenging personal experience the other day, and I remember going 488 00:24:07,636 --> 00:24:09,956 Speaker 1: to bed thinking, oh, this is such a shitty day, 489 00:24:10,076 --> 00:24:12,956 Speaker 1: like I hate this day. And my husband, Jimmy, said, 490 00:24:13,356 --> 00:24:15,516 Speaker 1: we're going to write gratitude lists, and I was like, 491 00:24:15,636 --> 00:24:18,236 Speaker 1: I don't want to. You know, you're you're so begrudging 492 00:24:18,276 --> 00:24:20,676 Speaker 1: in that moment, right. The last thing you want to 493 00:24:20,676 --> 00:24:23,476 Speaker 1: do when you're in the throes of a bad change 494 00:24:23,556 --> 00:24:26,396 Speaker 1: or whatnot is to commit to a gratitude list. But 495 00:24:26,476 --> 00:24:28,956 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you soften, you know, by number three 496 00:24:28,996 --> 00:24:32,076 Speaker 1: on that list. You start to frame your life differently, 497 00:24:32,076 --> 00:24:34,756 Speaker 1: You start to frame the change event differently, you start 498 00:24:34,836 --> 00:24:37,916 Speaker 1: to have perspective to take some distance from it. And 499 00:24:38,396 --> 00:24:41,996 Speaker 1: I found it to be such a therapeutic exercise. And again, 500 00:24:42,036 --> 00:24:45,396 Speaker 1: I think, you know, some of these recommendations from our 501 00:24:45,436 --> 00:24:47,716 Speaker 1: field can seem like common sense, right, Oh yeah, just 502 00:24:47,716 --> 00:24:49,716 Speaker 1: write down your gratitude thoughts. But I think what the 503 00:24:49,756 --> 00:24:52,796 Speaker 1: research shows us is what a huge impact it can 504 00:24:52,836 --> 00:24:55,476 Speaker 1: have un well being, which we might not appreciate, right, 505 00:24:55,556 --> 00:24:58,196 Speaker 1: And it can lead you to actually commit to doing 506 00:24:58,236 --> 00:25:00,636 Speaker 1: those things, even in hard moments. And I think, you know, 507 00:25:00,676 --> 00:25:02,396 Speaker 1: I love the idea that you know, it feels like 508 00:25:02,476 --> 00:25:06,036 Speaker 1: common sense, but it's not common practice, right, You have 509 00:25:06,276 --> 00:25:07,876 Speaker 1: to do it, and when you do it, you know 510 00:25:07,916 --> 00:25:10,236 Speaker 1: you see these benefits. And you know, that's one of 511 00:25:10,276 --> 00:25:12,956 Speaker 1: the intuitions that I think we get wrong or that 512 00:25:12,996 --> 00:25:15,676 Speaker 1: can kind of lead us astray. Right, which is like this, 513 00:25:15,796 --> 00:25:17,756 Speaker 1: it's not going to work, right. You know, I'm fixed, 514 00:25:17,796 --> 00:25:20,076 Speaker 1: I'm not going to change. But you know, you, I 515 00:25:20,076 --> 00:25:22,836 Speaker 1: think identify a lot of a different kind of mindset 516 00:25:22,876 --> 00:25:24,996 Speaker 1: that we can take to some of these changes, you know, 517 00:25:25,036 --> 00:25:27,716 Speaker 1: which researchers call this idea of a growth mindset. You know, 518 00:25:27,756 --> 00:25:29,636 Speaker 1: So what's this idea of a growth mindset? And how 519 00:25:29,996 --> 00:25:32,436 Speaker 1: can we apply it better? Yeah? The growth mindset refers 520 00:25:32,436 --> 00:25:34,516 Speaker 1: to the idea that we should see our brains in 521 00:25:34,556 --> 00:25:36,796 Speaker 1: the same way that we see our muscles. Right, so 522 00:25:36,836 --> 00:25:38,836 Speaker 1: we always we believe if we run around the track 523 00:25:39,156 --> 00:25:41,996 Speaker 1: a certain number of times, our calf muscles will get stronger. 524 00:25:42,396 --> 00:25:44,436 Speaker 1: We should see our minds in the same way. Right, 525 00:25:44,476 --> 00:25:47,276 Speaker 1: If you do enough exercises, if you commit to that 526 00:25:47,356 --> 00:25:51,156 Speaker 1: mindfulness meditation practice for five minutes a day, you will 527 00:25:51,276 --> 00:25:55,156 Speaker 1: build that mental strength. And I think we've always had 528 00:25:55,476 --> 00:25:57,756 Speaker 1: a disconnect in our minds about how our bodies grow, 529 00:25:58,116 --> 00:26:00,676 Speaker 1: but that our minds somehow don't have that same potential. 530 00:26:00,796 --> 00:26:03,516 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of really compelling research about how 531 00:26:03,556 --> 00:26:05,356 Speaker 1: in fact it does. I mean, you and I might 532 00:26:05,396 --> 00:26:07,076 Speaker 1: not want to run around the track eight times, so 533 00:26:07,116 --> 00:26:10,436 Speaker 1: maybe it's a bad analogy, but theory if we were 534 00:26:10,516 --> 00:26:12,956 Speaker 1: to our calves to get stronger, and the beauty is 535 00:26:12,956 --> 00:26:17,196 Speaker 1: like it's it's really the thing I mind most fascinating 536 00:26:17,236 --> 00:26:21,036 Speaker 1: about their growth mindset research is that it's our mindset, right. 537 00:26:21,076 --> 00:26:23,756 Speaker 1: Our beliefs about the extent to which we can change 538 00:26:23,916 --> 00:26:26,596 Speaker 1: in fact, affect the degree to which we change. I mean, 539 00:26:26,636 --> 00:26:28,396 Speaker 1: in part just because it affects what we do. Right. 540 00:26:28,396 --> 00:26:30,636 Speaker 1: If if if you believe you can't change, you're not going 541 00:26:30,676 --> 00:26:32,316 Speaker 1: to start running around the track, You're not going to 542 00:26:32,316 --> 00:26:34,396 Speaker 1: engage in a gratitude practice, You're not going to start 543 00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:36,796 Speaker 1: meditating every day. You have to kind of believe it's 544 00:26:36,836 --> 00:26:39,676 Speaker 1: going to work to see the effects of these changes. 545 00:26:39,956 --> 00:26:42,236 Speaker 1: But the good news is that we can change those beliefs, 546 00:26:42,236 --> 00:26:44,116 Speaker 1: and I think the science helps. As you said, like 547 00:26:44,436 --> 00:26:47,556 Speaker 1: just knowing the brain is incredibly plastic that it basically 548 00:26:47,596 --> 00:26:50,556 Speaker 1: works like a calf muscle can help you see like 549 00:26:50,596 --> 00:26:52,316 Speaker 1: this is worth it. I should put time into it, 550 00:26:52,316 --> 00:26:54,756 Speaker 1: I should try these practices. Yeah, it can change the 551 00:26:54,756 --> 00:26:57,756 Speaker 1: way that you act. Like you said, just a simple 552 00:26:57,876 --> 00:27:00,316 Speaker 1: mindset shift can affect performance. And so this is one 553 00:27:00,316 --> 00:27:01,956 Speaker 1: of the reasons that I was so excited you agree 554 00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:04,636 Speaker 1: to this bonus episode because you know, do you really 555 00:27:04,636 --> 00:27:07,236 Speaker 1: think that understanding the science of change better can be 556 00:27:07,396 --> 00:27:11,116 Speaker 1: kind of a path to improving our nourishing overall? Absolutely? 557 00:27:11,316 --> 00:27:14,716 Speaker 1: I mean, I think my goal with making this podcast 558 00:27:14,916 --> 00:27:17,556 Speaker 1: was that I felt like I didn't have all the 559 00:27:17,596 --> 00:27:20,396 Speaker 1: answers to change right, and I thought it would be 560 00:27:20,396 --> 00:27:22,996 Speaker 1: such a fascinating experience to try to marry what the 561 00:27:23,076 --> 00:27:25,916 Speaker 1: science tells us about happiness with people's real life stories 562 00:27:25,916 --> 00:27:29,876 Speaker 1: and real life narratives. And I feel like that blending 563 00:27:30,236 --> 00:27:33,796 Speaker 1: of wisdom, like mining people's stories for their wisdom, but 564 00:27:33,796 --> 00:27:36,116 Speaker 1: then also mining the research literature to try to figure 565 00:27:36,116 --> 00:27:40,436 Speaker 1: out strategies for better managing change. It certainly made me 566 00:27:40,636 --> 00:27:42,836 Speaker 1: a better and more resilient person, and I'm hoping that 567 00:27:42,876 --> 00:27:45,956 Speaker 1: it's had the same impact on listeners. And speaking of listeners, 568 00:27:46,236 --> 00:27:49,716 Speaker 1: we had promised that this would also involve some listener questions, 569 00:27:49,996 --> 00:27:51,796 Speaker 1: and so I have a few of them that listeners 570 00:27:51,836 --> 00:27:54,876 Speaker 1: submitted through Facebook earlier, and so Maya, if you wouldn't mind, 571 00:27:54,916 --> 00:27:57,636 Speaker 1: I'd love to get your take on some of these questions. 572 00:27:57,796 --> 00:28:01,196 Speaker 1: The first question is how do you gauge if a 573 00:28:01,276 --> 00:28:04,076 Speaker 1: life change will actually make you happier? You know that 574 00:28:04,636 --> 00:28:07,236 Speaker 1: the reader goes on to ask is the grass always 575 00:28:07,236 --> 00:28:08,916 Speaker 1: greener on the other side? You know, how do you 576 00:28:08,956 --> 00:28:11,276 Speaker 1: know if you turned down an opportunity that that will 577 00:28:11,356 --> 00:28:14,236 Speaker 1: ultimately be a good thing. I wish I had the 578 00:28:14,276 --> 00:28:16,836 Speaker 1: answer to that question at large, because it would mean that, 579 00:28:17,676 --> 00:28:20,076 Speaker 1: you know, I could forecast everyone's future, but I don't. 580 00:28:20,396 --> 00:28:25,116 Speaker 1: That'd be much more financially lucrative than running a podcast, right, yeah, yeah, definitely. 581 00:28:25,836 --> 00:28:30,796 Speaker 1: But I can say this, which is people reliably, they 582 00:28:30,836 --> 00:28:32,916 Speaker 1: get it wrong often how a change is going to 583 00:28:32,956 --> 00:28:34,716 Speaker 1: affect them. And you know, we talked a little bit 584 00:28:34,716 --> 00:28:38,196 Speaker 1: before Larie about how change doesn't happen in a vacuum. 585 00:28:38,476 --> 00:28:40,036 Speaker 1: And so there have been guests on my show who 586 00:28:40,076 --> 00:28:42,156 Speaker 1: have come on thinking that they were willing what was 587 00:28:42,196 --> 00:28:45,436 Speaker 1: going to be a positive change. They were absolutely certain 588 00:28:45,476 --> 00:28:47,196 Speaker 1: that this change they were going to introduce into their 589 00:28:47,196 --> 00:28:49,236 Speaker 1: lives was going to make them happier and better off, 590 00:28:49,436 --> 00:28:51,756 Speaker 1: and what they found afterwards is that that wasn't the case. 591 00:28:52,356 --> 00:28:53,676 Speaker 1: So a good example of this is that had a 592 00:28:53,676 --> 00:28:56,836 Speaker 1: woman named Elna on my show and her lifelong goal 593 00:28:56,996 --> 00:29:00,116 Speaker 1: was to become thin, and she did it in five months. 594 00:29:00,116 --> 00:29:04,476 Speaker 1: She very unhealthily lost over one hundred pounds and for 595 00:29:04,516 --> 00:29:06,556 Speaker 1: a short time she thought that she was living her 596 00:29:06,636 --> 00:29:09,676 Speaker 1: dream life, and slowly she started to realize that she 597 00:29:09,756 --> 00:29:13,636 Speaker 1: was becoming a worse person. She was buying into standards 598 00:29:13,636 --> 00:29:15,316 Speaker 1: of beauty that she didn't want to buy into. She 599 00:29:15,396 --> 00:29:18,796 Speaker 1: was becoming more superficial, she was losing the boldness and 600 00:29:18,796 --> 00:29:21,836 Speaker 1: a reverence that she had had prior. And what she 601 00:29:21,956 --> 00:29:24,756 Speaker 1: learned from that experience is it's not like a magic 602 00:29:24,756 --> 00:29:26,676 Speaker 1: trick where you just get to walk through a mirror 603 00:29:26,716 --> 00:29:29,756 Speaker 1: and you're exactly the same Elma, with all the same 604 00:29:29,796 --> 00:29:32,556 Speaker 1: psychology and all the same mindsets, and you're just thin. Right, 605 00:29:32,636 --> 00:29:34,996 Speaker 1: That's not how it works, because, as we talked about, 606 00:29:35,036 --> 00:29:38,796 Speaker 1: we are these complicated ecosystems. And so what her story 607 00:29:38,836 --> 00:29:42,516 Speaker 1: taught me is that we need to audit our change experiences. Right. 608 00:29:42,556 --> 00:29:44,876 Speaker 1: We cannot go in with too much confidence about it 609 00:29:44,916 --> 00:29:48,756 Speaker 1: either being positive or negative, because there will inevitably be 610 00:29:48,876 --> 00:29:51,716 Speaker 1: aspects of the change experience that surprise you in some way. 611 00:29:52,116 --> 00:29:54,636 Speaker 1: And so I think it's so important to approach change 612 00:29:54,636 --> 00:29:57,196 Speaker 1: with a profound amount of humility, to go through the 613 00:29:57,276 --> 00:30:00,556 Speaker 1: change thinking, Okay, I'm trying to you know, I'm taking 614 00:30:00,556 --> 00:30:03,996 Speaker 1: on this new job, or I'm investing in a new friendship, 615 00:30:04,316 --> 00:30:06,916 Speaker 1: let me just have you a mind to how other 616 00:30:06,956 --> 00:30:09,956 Speaker 1: parts of me might be interacting with this change. And 617 00:30:09,996 --> 00:30:13,276 Speaker 1: I think through those auditing experiences you can eventually build 618 00:30:13,556 --> 00:30:17,796 Speaker 1: some you know, intuitions about yourself and whether a change 619 00:30:18,076 --> 00:30:20,516 Speaker 1: is likely to end up being positive or negative or 620 00:30:20,556 --> 00:30:22,836 Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle, which is often how life works. Right. 621 00:30:22,956 --> 00:30:25,676 Speaker 1: All the happiness research shows that these what we believe 622 00:30:25,716 --> 00:30:28,676 Speaker 1: to be clearly good outcomes often carry some downsides and 623 00:30:28,796 --> 00:30:31,196 Speaker 1: vice versa. Yeah, I love that idea of audit too, 624 00:30:31,236 --> 00:30:33,676 Speaker 1: because one of the pieces of advice I've gotten for 625 00:30:33,716 --> 00:30:36,476 Speaker 1: if you're thinking about a change is to ask someone 626 00:30:36,516 --> 00:30:39,236 Speaker 1: who's been through that change, Right, Like, you can't necessarily 627 00:30:39,276 --> 00:30:43,116 Speaker 1: from your perspective on that transformative experience, know what's going 628 00:30:43,116 --> 00:30:45,036 Speaker 1: to happen on the other side. But if you ask 629 00:30:45,116 --> 00:30:47,076 Speaker 1: someone who's been through it, they can tell you. You 630 00:30:47,076 --> 00:30:49,836 Speaker 1: know that, I can say, you know, being someone who say, 631 00:30:49,876 --> 00:30:51,596 Speaker 1: for example, it became a head of college and taught 632 00:30:51,596 --> 00:30:53,636 Speaker 1: a happiness class, what are the pros and cons or 633 00:30:53,636 --> 00:30:55,756 Speaker 1: that sort of thing that no one who had done 634 00:30:55,756 --> 00:30:57,876 Speaker 1: that would like know what that was. So you know. 635 00:30:57,956 --> 00:31:02,116 Speaker 1: The other thing, I've also learned how universal the psychologies 636 00:31:02,156 --> 00:31:05,116 Speaker 1: we can recruit are in the face of very diverse changes. 637 00:31:05,156 --> 00:31:07,596 Speaker 1: That's another thing I've learned from this experience, which is, 638 00:31:08,636 --> 00:31:11,036 Speaker 1: if you're a cancer patient, you might actually find the 639 00:31:11,076 --> 00:31:13,876 Speaker 1: most resonance with the person on my show who was 640 00:31:13,916 --> 00:31:17,676 Speaker 1: going through a divorce, because in both cases, the loss 641 00:31:17,676 --> 00:31:20,996 Speaker 1: felt similar and the way in which their psychologies were 642 00:31:20,996 --> 00:31:24,516 Speaker 1: recruited felt similar, and they might feel less resonance in 643 00:31:24,556 --> 00:31:27,236 Speaker 1: an episode that was specifically about going through an illness. 644 00:31:27,476 --> 00:31:29,756 Speaker 1: And I find that really profound because it means that 645 00:31:30,276 --> 00:31:33,196 Speaker 1: when listeners are going through a big change, if they 646 00:31:33,236 --> 00:31:37,596 Speaker 1: can't find someone who has had that exact experience, and 647 00:31:37,756 --> 00:31:39,396 Speaker 1: I know that many of us can feel this way, 648 00:31:39,436 --> 00:31:41,116 Speaker 1: like no one will understand what I'm going through, no 649 00:31:41,116 --> 00:31:45,116 Speaker 1: one's been through this specific thing, like fear not because 650 00:31:45,156 --> 00:31:48,116 Speaker 1: you can find someone who has more of a mind 651 00:31:48,116 --> 00:31:49,956 Speaker 1: meld with you and may have gone through a vastly 652 00:31:49,956 --> 00:31:53,556 Speaker 1: different change experience, but can still share wisdom and insights 653 00:31:53,596 --> 00:31:55,796 Speaker 1: about how they managed it, love it, and this idea 654 00:31:55,836 --> 00:31:58,076 Speaker 1: of kind of the shared denis that we get out 655 00:31:58,076 --> 00:32:01,156 Speaker 1: of change. This idea of going through collective change gets 656 00:32:01,156 --> 00:32:03,796 Speaker 1: to the next question that someone submitted through Facebook, which 657 00:32:03,836 --> 00:32:07,196 Speaker 1: is these times are filled with both uncertainty and change, 658 00:32:07,356 --> 00:32:10,036 Speaker 1: two things I find extremely rest of all. What are 659 00:32:10,076 --> 00:32:13,156 Speaker 1: some strategies to deal with both of these kinds of things? So, 660 00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:16,276 Speaker 1: uncertainty and change, what are some strategies you know you'd 661 00:32:16,356 --> 00:32:19,036 Speaker 1: use to deal with kind of these things? Yeah, I mean, 662 00:32:19,076 --> 00:32:22,796 Speaker 1: I think, as I mentioned earlier, you know, uncertainty and 663 00:32:22,916 --> 00:32:25,516 Speaker 1: change were the motivations for creating a slight change of plans, 664 00:32:25,796 --> 00:32:30,436 Speaker 1: because I also find those two things extremely stressful. One 665 00:32:30,476 --> 00:32:32,836 Speaker 1: of the tactics that I use, one of the strategies 666 00:32:32,876 --> 00:32:35,316 Speaker 1: is something you alluded to earlier, which is that we 667 00:32:35,396 --> 00:32:41,116 Speaker 1: reliably underestimate our psychological immune system. Right, We reliably underestimate 668 00:32:41,196 --> 00:32:43,836 Speaker 1: just how resilient we will be in the face of 669 00:32:43,836 --> 00:32:47,036 Speaker 1: a change, And in the moment, it can be very 670 00:32:47,156 --> 00:32:50,116 Speaker 1: hard to get your emotions to appreciate that. I think 671 00:32:50,116 --> 00:32:52,476 Speaker 1: it's easy to intellectualize in the moment, I know I'm 672 00:32:52,476 --> 00:32:55,036 Speaker 1: this resilient, but I sure as hell don't feel that way, right. 673 00:32:55,396 --> 00:32:57,756 Speaker 1: But I think you know, if you think it enough times, 674 00:32:58,236 --> 00:33:01,876 Speaker 1: over time, your emotions will catch up to that intellectual feeling. 675 00:33:01,876 --> 00:33:03,596 Speaker 1: And I found that to be true in my own life, 676 00:33:03,596 --> 00:33:06,676 Speaker 1: which is in the moment, I'll tell myself, okay, Maya. 677 00:33:06,716 --> 00:33:08,916 Speaker 1: You are a cognitive scientist. You do know it all 678 00:33:08,956 --> 00:33:10,916 Speaker 1: the research says. I know, you don't believe it right 679 00:33:10,956 --> 00:33:13,556 Speaker 1: now because the emotions feel so raw and you feel 680 00:33:13,556 --> 00:33:16,716 Speaker 1: so vulnerable, But just remember that we do actually have 681 00:33:16,876 --> 00:33:19,916 Speaker 1: this incredible immune system, and I have found that over 682 00:33:19,996 --> 00:33:23,716 Speaker 1: time these changes have started to feel slightly less volatile 683 00:33:24,036 --> 00:33:27,396 Speaker 1: as a result of cultivating that mindset. What strategies have 684 00:33:27,476 --> 00:33:29,876 Speaker 1: you use, Larry, Yeah, well, I think one of the 685 00:33:30,076 --> 00:33:32,716 Speaker 1: things I've really used, especially recently to deal with the 686 00:33:32,796 --> 00:33:36,276 Speaker 1: uncertainty part of this equation is really taking time to 687 00:33:36,356 --> 00:33:39,116 Speaker 1: like notice and experience what that does to me, right. 688 00:33:39,116 --> 00:33:40,956 Speaker 1: I mean, I think part of the reason uncertainty and 689 00:33:41,036 --> 00:33:43,196 Speaker 1: change are scary is because we think, well, it might 690 00:33:43,196 --> 00:33:45,316 Speaker 1: make us sad, or it might make us fearful, or 691 00:33:45,356 --> 00:33:47,556 Speaker 1: it might make us anxious, and we feel like we 692 00:33:47,636 --> 00:33:50,116 Speaker 1: just can't deal with those emotions. We want to run 693 00:33:50,116 --> 00:33:53,076 Speaker 1: away from those emotions. But you know, the research shows 694 00:33:53,116 --> 00:33:55,996 Speaker 1: that if you just take time to accept those emotions, 695 00:33:56,076 --> 00:33:58,196 Speaker 1: like hang out with them for a while, you know, 696 00:33:58,276 --> 00:34:01,556 Speaker 1: maybe really just like ride the wave. On our podcast, 697 00:34:01,596 --> 00:34:03,796 Speaker 1: we talk a lot about urge surfing. So I'm just 698 00:34:03,796 --> 00:34:05,516 Speaker 1: going to sit with this sadness, you know, for a 699 00:34:05,556 --> 00:34:07,076 Speaker 1: couple minutes, or I'm just going to sit with this 700 00:34:07,156 --> 00:34:08,836 Speaker 1: anxiety for a couple of minutes. It's not going to 701 00:34:08,876 --> 00:34:11,836 Speaker 1: feel great. But the you know, the research tends to 702 00:34:11,876 --> 00:34:14,436 Speaker 1: show that emotions work like a wave. It'll crust and 703 00:34:14,516 --> 00:34:16,716 Speaker 1: kind of go up, but then it'll subside and go 704 00:34:16,796 --> 00:34:20,356 Speaker 1: down and you'll get through it. And so counterintuitively, one 705 00:34:20,396 --> 00:34:22,236 Speaker 1: of the ways I deal with the negative emotions that 706 00:34:22,276 --> 00:34:26,596 Speaker 1: come with uncertainty and change is to really sit with them, 707 00:34:26,636 --> 00:34:28,396 Speaker 1: you know. And I've been you know, you were talking 708 00:34:28,396 --> 00:34:30,676 Speaker 1: about personal issues that you're going through. I have a 709 00:34:30,716 --> 00:34:33,196 Speaker 1: really close friend who's going through a really scary health 710 00:34:33,236 --> 00:34:35,956 Speaker 1: diagnosis right now that's come with a lot of uncertainty, 711 00:34:35,996 --> 00:34:38,116 Speaker 1: a lot of fear for me, and I've really just 712 00:34:38,196 --> 00:34:40,716 Speaker 1: done some like quick meditations where I just sit with 713 00:34:40,756 --> 00:34:43,076 Speaker 1: that and notice how it feels and kind of let 714 00:34:43,076 --> 00:34:45,796 Speaker 1: it ride out. And oddly enough, you can get through 715 00:34:45,836 --> 00:34:47,876 Speaker 1: negative emotions and kind of sitting with them makes you 716 00:34:47,876 --> 00:34:50,316 Speaker 1: realize like, actually, I'm strong enough to hang out with 717 00:34:50,356 --> 00:34:52,636 Speaker 1: some sadness for a little bit, like I'll be okay, 718 00:34:53,196 --> 00:34:56,116 Speaker 1: And that for me has been incredibly powerful. Yeah, I 719 00:34:56,116 --> 00:34:58,716 Speaker 1: love hearing that and I'm so sorry about your friend. 720 00:34:59,316 --> 00:35:01,636 Speaker 1: I absolutely think that's right. And the more you sit 721 00:35:01,756 --> 00:35:04,436 Speaker 1: negative emotions, the more they lose power over you. And 722 00:35:04,516 --> 00:35:07,476 Speaker 1: that's the most powerful part of it all. I interviewed 723 00:35:07,636 --> 00:35:11,116 Speaker 1: a guy named Ramsey for a slight change and this guy, 724 00:35:11,116 --> 00:35:14,036 Speaker 1: when he was twenty, woke up with profound tenitis, so 725 00:35:14,116 --> 00:35:17,796 Speaker 1: a high pitched, high frequency ringing in his ear that 726 00:35:17,876 --> 00:35:20,756 Speaker 1: has been permanent ever since. It is a permanent fixture 727 00:35:20,796 --> 00:35:24,756 Speaker 1: of his life that every waking moment of every single 728 00:35:24,836 --> 00:35:28,516 Speaker 1: day he hears a blaring siren in his left ear. 729 00:35:29,076 --> 00:35:33,036 Speaker 1: And he thought, initially, the antidote to this is a 730 00:35:33,076 --> 00:35:35,636 Speaker 1: medical solution, right, how do I fix this? How do 731 00:35:35,716 --> 00:35:38,676 Speaker 1: I fix this? And over time he actually put what 732 00:35:38,716 --> 00:35:41,756 Speaker 1: you've just said into practice, which is, let me be 733 00:35:41,876 --> 00:35:44,556 Speaker 1: at peace with this sound, let me embrace it, let 734 00:35:44,596 --> 00:35:47,556 Speaker 1: me reinterpret this sound is not an enemy that I'm 735 00:35:47,556 --> 00:35:50,236 Speaker 1: trying to swing a baseball bat at, but as just 736 00:35:50,356 --> 00:35:52,916 Speaker 1: a presence in my life that I acknowledge and I 737 00:35:52,916 --> 00:35:55,196 Speaker 1: accept it. Sometimes I don't love it, but I don't 738 00:35:55,236 --> 00:35:59,916 Speaker 1: hate it either, And that was actually his cure. His 739 00:36:00,036 --> 00:36:03,596 Speaker 1: cure to his tenitis did not have medical tones to it. 740 00:36:03,596 --> 00:36:07,116 Speaker 1: It was a psychological shift in how he perceived this 741 00:36:07,316 --> 00:36:11,076 Speaker 1: intrusive thing that had happened in his rain, and he said, today, 742 00:36:11,156 --> 00:36:13,436 Speaker 1: you know, it just doesn't have power over him in 743 00:36:13,436 --> 00:36:15,316 Speaker 1: the way that it did before. It doesn't bother him, 744 00:36:15,316 --> 00:36:17,196 Speaker 1: doesn't irk him in the way. He's like, even now, 745 00:36:17,236 --> 00:36:18,796 Speaker 1: you know, I can close my eyes and it's there 746 00:36:18,876 --> 00:36:21,556 Speaker 1: and I hear it hasn't changed in its intensity at 747 00:36:21,556 --> 00:36:25,156 Speaker 1: all over the years, but my relationship with it has changed. 748 00:36:25,676 --> 00:36:27,476 Speaker 1: And I thought to myself, if he can get if 749 00:36:27,516 --> 00:36:29,716 Speaker 1: he can make peace with the blaring siren in his head, 750 00:36:29,796 --> 00:36:32,436 Speaker 1: like I can deal with these feelings of sadness, you know, 751 00:36:32,796 --> 00:36:34,396 Speaker 1: And I think it's so powerful and it might be 752 00:36:34,436 --> 00:36:36,876 Speaker 1: a great way to sort of end with this idea 753 00:36:36,956 --> 00:36:39,876 Speaker 1: of allowing, you know, I think once you get to 754 00:36:39,876 --> 00:36:42,636 Speaker 1: the point where you can allow some change in your life, 755 00:36:42,836 --> 00:36:45,596 Speaker 1: even if it's unwanted change, what you often find is 756 00:36:45,636 --> 00:36:49,436 Speaker 1: that it leads to more growth, more resilience, more positives 757 00:36:49,436 --> 00:36:52,396 Speaker 1: than you really expect. And so Maya thank you so 758 00:36:52,516 --> 00:36:54,996 Speaker 1: much for coming on this podcast with me and talking 759 00:36:55,076 --> 00:36:58,196 Speaker 1: with me about the science of change. Listeners, I hope 760 00:36:58,196 --> 00:37:01,276 Speaker 1: it's changed your mind about change to listen to this, 761 00:37:01,636 --> 00:37:04,836 Speaker 1: and that you've very very meta and that you've gotten 762 00:37:04,876 --> 00:37:06,836 Speaker 1: some tips that you can use to feel a little 763 00:37:06,836 --> 00:37:09,596 Speaker 1: bit happier. Well. As you know, Laurie, I love any 764 00:37:09,636 --> 00:37:11,356 Speaker 1: excuse to chat with you, so thank you so much 765 00:37:11,396 --> 00:37:13,596 Speaker 1: for having me on awesome. Thanks so much. Thanks everyone, 766 00:37:13,716 --> 00:37:20,276 Speaker 1: We'll see you soon. The Happiness Lab is co written 767 00:37:20,316 --> 00:37:23,316 Speaker 1: and produced by Ryan Dilley. Our original music was composed 768 00:37:23,316 --> 00:37:26,756 Speaker 1: by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing and mastering by 769 00:37:26,756 --> 00:37:30,916 Speaker 1: Evan Biola. Joseph Friedman checked our facts. Sophie Crane mckibbon 770 00:37:31,036 --> 00:37:34,996 Speaker 1: edited our scripts. Emily Anne Vaughan offered additional production support. 771 00:37:35,636 --> 00:37:40,356 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Miela Belle, Carl mcgliori, Heather Fame, Maggie Taylor, 772 00:37:40,716 --> 00:37:45,796 Speaker 1: Daniella lucarn Maya Kanig, Nicole Morano, Eric Zandler, Royston Bazzer, 773 00:37:46,196 --> 00:37:49,836 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, and my agent Ben Davis. That Happiness Lab 774 00:37:49,876 --> 00:37:52,396 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and the Doctor 775 00:37:52,476 --> 00:37:53,236 Speaker 1: Laurie Sanders