1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:31,836 Speaker 1: Pushkin, Pushkin. Hey everyone, this is a bit of a 2 00:00:31,916 --> 00:00:35,996 Speaker 1: special episode of Broken Record, not just because it features 3 00:00:36,076 --> 00:00:39,276 Speaker 1: Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, and Bruce Headlam all at once, 4 00:00:39,756 --> 00:00:42,516 Speaker 1: but because it happened at the spiritual home Shangri La. 5 00:00:43,196 --> 00:00:48,756 Speaker 1: Of today's guest, that's the band's Robbie Robertson, who reminisces 6 00:00:48,796 --> 00:00:52,156 Speaker 1: about converting a home in Malibu into the now legendary 7 00:00:52,236 --> 00:00:56,196 Speaker 1: recording studio run by Rick, before moving on to discussing 8 00:00:56,196 --> 00:00:59,356 Speaker 1: the band's early days as backup for a rockabilly singer 9 00:00:59,516 --> 00:01:02,756 Speaker 1: when they were known as the Hawks, and they also 10 00:01:02,796 --> 00:01:07,476 Speaker 1: discussed Robbie's longtime work with director Martin Scorsese, which earned 11 00:01:07,516 --> 00:01:11,716 Speaker 1: him an Oscar nomination at this year's Academy Awards. We 12 00:01:11,756 --> 00:01:14,116 Speaker 1: should also note that if you liked this episode, there's 13 00:01:14,196 --> 00:01:18,276 Speaker 1: a new documentary called Once We're Brothers, Robbie Robertson and 14 00:01:18,316 --> 00:01:20,596 Speaker 1: the Band that will be coming out in theaters on 15 00:01:20,716 --> 00:01:27,556 Speaker 1: February twenty first. This is Broken Record liner notes for 16 00:01:27,636 --> 00:01:28,516 Speaker 1: the digital Age. 17 00:01:28,716 --> 00:01:29,636 Speaker 2: I'm justin Mischmer. 18 00:01:30,636 --> 00:01:35,076 Speaker 1: Here's Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, and Bruce Headlam from Shangri 19 00:01:35,156 --> 00:01:38,796 Speaker 1: La speaking with the studios architect Robbie Robertson. 20 00:01:40,116 --> 00:01:43,476 Speaker 3: We had a fantastic day the other day here, and 21 00:01:43,716 --> 00:01:47,956 Speaker 3: when I was telling the stories of Shangri Law, you know, 22 00:01:48,156 --> 00:01:50,716 Speaker 3: the stories. 23 00:01:49,356 --> 00:01:54,476 Speaker 2: He envisioned this place and built it and it was unbelievable. 24 00:01:53,956 --> 00:01:57,636 Speaker 3: And it was mine. You know. The other guys in 25 00:01:57,676 --> 00:02:02,996 Speaker 3: the band thought this was a good idea. But from 26 00:02:03,116 --> 00:02:07,316 Speaker 3: Big Pink to Sammy Davis Junior's house to the Wars, 27 00:02:07,876 --> 00:02:12,876 Speaker 3: we made these wrecks in not in studios and other 28 00:02:14,076 --> 00:02:16,876 Speaker 3: places where there was an atmosphere and that could be 29 00:02:16,996 --> 00:02:22,596 Speaker 3: our atmosphere, fear and our sound, you know, and everything 30 00:02:23,636 --> 00:02:29,156 Speaker 3: was not on somebody else's way of doing somebody else's wavelength. 31 00:02:29,876 --> 00:02:31,876 Speaker 3: You know. You would go into the studio and there'd 32 00:02:31,916 --> 00:02:34,556 Speaker 3: be these used to be these Union guys, and they'd 33 00:02:34,596 --> 00:02:37,236 Speaker 3: be like, oh, it looks like it's lunchtime. We're like, 34 00:02:37,276 --> 00:02:40,116 Speaker 3: what are you talking about lunchtime? Where were you know? 35 00:02:40,156 --> 00:02:43,316 Speaker 3: We're about to do something, and and they'd be there 36 00:02:43,356 --> 00:02:46,356 Speaker 3: and I'd be like, I don't know, this should be louder. 37 00:02:46,676 --> 00:02:49,796 Speaker 3: Don't touch that, you know, So I don't want that. 38 00:02:49,996 --> 00:02:53,436 Speaker 3: I don't I don't want to do that. So I said, 39 00:02:53,476 --> 00:02:55,756 Speaker 3: what we're going to do is we're going to make 40 00:02:56,916 --> 00:03:03,556 Speaker 3: these clubhouse, these workshop, these studio things. That is our 41 00:03:03,636 --> 00:03:08,636 Speaker 3: world and our music, our sound. And whether it was 42 00:03:08,716 --> 00:03:12,076 Speaker 3: true or or not, I believed that it gave it 43 00:03:12,476 --> 00:03:16,196 Speaker 3: a character and a thing, which it did for better 44 00:03:16,316 --> 00:03:16,756 Speaker 3: or worse. 45 00:03:16,956 --> 00:03:19,716 Speaker 2: What's interesting about that too, is that now it's become 46 00:03:19,756 --> 00:03:25,356 Speaker 2: more the norm. Yeah, that said, when you did it technologically, 47 00:03:25,476 --> 00:03:27,956 Speaker 2: it was much more difficult to do. Like, when you 48 00:03:27,996 --> 00:03:31,356 Speaker 2: did it you needed big studio equipment. Like today people 49 00:03:31,356 --> 00:03:33,116 Speaker 2: can do it on their laptop, so they could it's 50 00:03:33,156 --> 00:03:36,396 Speaker 2: easier to make that jump. But when you did it, 51 00:03:36,916 --> 00:03:40,156 Speaker 2: the infrastructure involved was not easy to pull off. 52 00:03:40,796 --> 00:03:48,116 Speaker 3: It was unheard of except for Les Paul. Les Paul said, 53 00:03:48,156 --> 00:03:51,836 Speaker 3: I'm going to build a studio at my house, and 54 00:03:51,916 --> 00:03:55,476 Speaker 3: I'm gonna build an echo chamber into the side of 55 00:03:55,516 --> 00:03:58,676 Speaker 3: this hill, right and he was going to do all 56 00:03:58,716 --> 00:04:02,036 Speaker 3: of these things. I had an argument the other day 57 00:04:02,076 --> 00:04:05,796 Speaker 3: with Van Morrison about being able to do this kind 58 00:04:05,876 --> 00:04:09,996 Speaker 3: of thing, and because he was saying, I only like 59 00:04:10,076 --> 00:04:12,716 Speaker 3: to play live just with my band, and I go 60 00:04:12,836 --> 00:04:15,356 Speaker 3: in and we sing and they play this song and 61 00:04:15,436 --> 00:04:19,076 Speaker 3: we kept capture a moment. We've all done that. I 62 00:04:19,516 --> 00:04:22,196 Speaker 3: know it really well. I played ricks some music the 63 00:04:22,236 --> 00:04:26,236 Speaker 3: other day. That was all like first or second takes, 64 00:04:26,316 --> 00:04:27,236 Speaker 3: and it was you know. 65 00:04:27,556 --> 00:04:30,676 Speaker 2: Songs you've heard, Yeah, songs you've heard a lot. 66 00:04:30,996 --> 00:04:34,596 Speaker 3: So anyway, Savannah saying, it's got to be live and 67 00:04:34,636 --> 00:04:36,556 Speaker 3: it's got to be bah and that's the way it 68 00:04:36,636 --> 00:04:38,756 Speaker 3: used to be and it's the way it Choob and 69 00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:43,916 Speaker 3: I said, well, what about Les Paul. He overdubbed, he 70 00:04:44,036 --> 00:04:47,276 Speaker 3: made things, he played on top of himself, he double 71 00:04:47,396 --> 00:04:51,516 Speaker 3: track things, He invented it. So so Van says, I know, 72 00:04:51,636 --> 00:04:52,596 Speaker 3: but he was magic. 73 00:04:54,916 --> 00:04:57,556 Speaker 4: Wait you made you did? You recorded at Sammy Davis 74 00:04:57,636 --> 00:04:58,276 Speaker 4: Junior's house. 75 00:04:59,476 --> 00:05:06,436 Speaker 3: Yes, we made the band album, the Brown Album. Uh. 76 00:05:06,476 --> 00:05:10,196 Speaker 3: And we rented Sammy Davis Junior's house in the Hollywood 77 00:05:10,476 --> 00:05:14,076 Speaker 3: it's up Sunset Plaza up in the Hollywood Hills, and 78 00:05:14,116 --> 00:05:17,476 Speaker 3: we all stayed in the house with the family. And 79 00:05:17,516 --> 00:05:21,396 Speaker 3: we turned the pool house where he used to have 80 00:05:21,476 --> 00:05:24,756 Speaker 3: his parties with Frank Sinatra and the rat Back and 81 00:05:24,996 --> 00:05:28,996 Speaker 3: all these people. We turned that pool house into a studio. 82 00:05:29,996 --> 00:05:34,716 Speaker 3: And the record company thought this was the worst idea 83 00:05:34,796 --> 00:05:38,756 Speaker 3: they ever heard. They thought this was ridiculous. He said, 84 00:05:38,836 --> 00:05:42,716 Speaker 3: drive fifteen minutes. We have the best studio in the world. 85 00:05:42,836 --> 00:05:46,996 Speaker 3: Here Frank's upper records here right, all of this stuff, 86 00:05:46,996 --> 00:05:49,276 Speaker 3: and I was like, no, no, no, this is a 87 00:05:49,276 --> 00:05:54,516 Speaker 3: different thing. And finally they were like, okay, okay, I 88 00:05:54,636 --> 00:05:57,436 Speaker 3: guess I don't know what you're doing and it's probably 89 00:05:57,516 --> 00:06:02,876 Speaker 3: going to be bad. But didn't show up. Sammy Davis Junior, 90 00:06:03,356 --> 00:06:06,676 Speaker 3: he owned, he still owned the house. He didn't live there. 91 00:06:07,516 --> 00:06:10,756 Speaker 4: I was imagining him like live there, stepping in on 92 00:06:10,756 --> 00:06:11,836 Speaker 4: one of your recordings halls. 93 00:06:11,876 --> 00:06:17,436 Speaker 3: But everything in the house was built lower. You go 94 00:06:17,516 --> 00:06:21,476 Speaker 3: into the bathroom and the sink was down here, and 95 00:06:21,556 --> 00:06:25,236 Speaker 3: it was everything was built to his specifications, you know. 96 00:06:25,556 --> 00:06:30,676 Speaker 3: And and it seemed like this is great, this is 97 00:06:30,796 --> 00:06:36,076 Speaker 3: great Sammy's world, you know, amazing. And so we recorded 98 00:06:36,076 --> 00:06:40,596 Speaker 3: the album there and then we mix it, or we're 99 00:06:40,636 --> 00:06:43,756 Speaker 3: going to mix the record. And there's this guy in 100 00:06:43,876 --> 00:06:47,156 Speaker 3: New York, Tony May was his name, and he had 101 00:06:47,196 --> 00:06:50,916 Speaker 3: mixed the Isley Brothers. It's your thing, do what you 102 00:06:50,996 --> 00:06:54,276 Speaker 3: want to do. So it was such a great sounding record, 103 00:06:54,596 --> 00:06:57,516 Speaker 3: we said, wow, let's see if we can get Tony 104 00:06:57,596 --> 00:07:00,156 Speaker 3: May to mix this. And he worked with Phil Ramone 105 00:07:00,156 --> 00:07:02,836 Speaker 3: and all these people there. So anyway, he comes in 106 00:07:02,876 --> 00:07:05,716 Speaker 3: and he puts up the tapes and everything, and he says, 107 00:07:07,596 --> 00:07:10,756 Speaker 3: these tapes are awful. I'm gonna have to do a 108 00:07:10,756 --> 00:07:15,956 Speaker 3: lot of work on this. And I thought, hmm, I 109 00:07:15,996 --> 00:07:19,036 Speaker 3: don't know if I like that, you know. So anyway, 110 00:07:19,076 --> 00:07:21,916 Speaker 3: he did a mix that was not what I wanted 111 00:07:21,996 --> 00:07:23,916 Speaker 3: at all. It's not the way I heard it at all. 112 00:07:24,596 --> 00:07:27,916 Speaker 3: So anyway, we're like, thanks, Tony, so you you know. 113 00:07:28,236 --> 00:07:29,156 Speaker 3: And and we. 114 00:07:29,276 --> 00:07:30,796 Speaker 4: Saw on which songs are these? 115 00:07:31,556 --> 00:07:35,196 Speaker 3: These were on the band album It was the night 116 00:07:35,236 --> 00:07:39,676 Speaker 3: they drove Old Dixie down up on Crippled Creek, you know, 117 00:07:39,716 --> 00:07:40,956 Speaker 3: Whispering Pines. 118 00:07:41,196 --> 00:07:42,716 Speaker 4: One was wrong with his mixes. 119 00:07:43,516 --> 00:07:50,076 Speaker 3: His mixes were trying to make this slick and bright, 120 00:07:50,956 --> 00:07:54,916 Speaker 3: and there was a woodiness to it. There was a 121 00:07:55,076 --> 00:07:59,716 Speaker 3: muddiness to it that suited the music. It was earthy 122 00:08:00,396 --> 00:08:04,916 Speaker 3: and I wanted that right. But he didn't get the jokes. 123 00:08:04,956 --> 00:08:08,316 Speaker 3: So that was okay. So I went and mixed the 124 00:08:08,436 --> 00:08:13,956 Speaker 3: album with a guy, another guy at the old Jerry 125 00:08:14,036 --> 00:08:18,116 Speaker 3: Ragovoice Hit Factory in New York. This guy mixed the album. 126 00:08:18,396 --> 00:08:20,396 Speaker 3: We mixed at the guys in the band. We were 127 00:08:20,436 --> 00:08:23,196 Speaker 3: all in there moving the faders and got it the 128 00:08:23,196 --> 00:08:27,556 Speaker 3: way that I wanted. So we get it and then 129 00:08:27,636 --> 00:08:33,196 Speaker 3: it's like Okay, the guy, the mastering guy, his name 130 00:08:33,276 --> 00:08:36,236 Speaker 3: is Bob Ludwig. You got to get him to master 131 00:08:36,636 --> 00:08:40,076 Speaker 3: your record. So we take the record to Bob Ludwig 132 00:08:40,996 --> 00:08:44,116 Speaker 3: and he puts it, you know, he puts on the 133 00:08:44,156 --> 00:08:48,316 Speaker 3: tape of the mixes and everything, and he says, oh boy, 134 00:08:48,956 --> 00:08:52,476 Speaker 3: He's like Tony May. He's like, I don't know. I'm 135 00:08:52,516 --> 00:08:55,756 Speaker 3: gonna try. I'll see if I can fix this or 136 00:08:55,876 --> 00:09:01,556 Speaker 3: save this. And I'm like, hmm, that's really depressing. So 137 00:09:01,596 --> 00:09:04,116 Speaker 3: I go and I tell the other guys. I said, 138 00:09:04,196 --> 00:09:06,476 Speaker 3: I don't know, we might have done this all wrong. 139 00:09:06,596 --> 00:09:10,956 Speaker 3: Everybody's saying it's it's terror carrible and that, you know. 140 00:09:11,676 --> 00:09:14,796 Speaker 3: So the next I don't know. A couple of days later, 141 00:09:15,716 --> 00:09:21,036 Speaker 3: Bob Ludwick caused me and he says, I am such 142 00:09:21,116 --> 00:09:27,516 Speaker 3: an idiot. I am such a fool. I didn't get it. 143 00:09:28,276 --> 00:09:32,356 Speaker 3: I so get it. This is maybe the most interesting 144 00:09:32,516 --> 00:09:36,596 Speaker 3: record I've ever heard. He said, I am so sorry. 145 00:09:37,196 --> 00:09:41,196 Speaker 3: And he told me, Bob Ludwick, he said, I made 146 00:09:41,236 --> 00:09:47,076 Speaker 3: the same mistake when sly Stone brought me there's a 147 00:09:47,196 --> 00:09:50,516 Speaker 3: riot going on. I thought that that was a big 148 00:09:50,596 --> 00:09:55,316 Speaker 3: mistake too, and he said, and then I've realized it 149 00:09:55,636 --> 00:09:58,156 Speaker 3: you know, I had to accept it the way that 150 00:09:58,236 --> 00:10:04,836 Speaker 3: I accepted your record. And so I was like, because 151 00:10:04,956 --> 00:10:07,516 Speaker 3: I thought he was right, you know, And if he 152 00:10:07,556 --> 00:10:09,516 Speaker 3: had a stayed with that, I don't know what would 153 00:10:09,516 --> 00:10:13,156 Speaker 3: have happened. So he you know, he mastered and it 154 00:10:13,196 --> 00:10:17,676 Speaker 3: hardly did anything to it in the mastering, and it 155 00:10:17,796 --> 00:10:21,476 Speaker 3: was just one of those things. It was a homemade thing. 156 00:10:21,716 --> 00:10:25,836 Speaker 3: It did have that character to it, and that was 157 00:10:26,036 --> 00:10:28,316 Speaker 3: part of its specialness. 158 00:10:28,476 --> 00:10:31,276 Speaker 4: He came very close to ruining two of the great masterpieces. 159 00:10:33,836 --> 00:10:36,556 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I do remember. 160 00:10:36,556 --> 00:10:39,756 Speaker 5: Actually the first songs he wrote, I goes for Ronnie Hawkins. 161 00:10:40,876 --> 00:10:41,556 Speaker 5: What were they like? 162 00:10:41,676 --> 00:10:41,836 Speaker 3: Well? 163 00:10:41,956 --> 00:10:42,596 Speaker 2: What were they? 164 00:10:43,516 --> 00:10:46,276 Speaker 3: Well? One of the reasons he hired me. I wrote 165 00:10:46,276 --> 00:10:48,396 Speaker 3: a couple of songs for him when I was fifteen 166 00:10:48,516 --> 00:10:52,436 Speaker 3: years old because I heard him say that I need 167 00:10:52,436 --> 00:10:55,596 Speaker 3: some songs, and I was trying to figure out how 168 00:10:55,636 --> 00:11:00,396 Speaker 3: I could crash into this world of Southern rock and roll. 169 00:11:01,316 --> 00:11:05,596 Speaker 3: That's the real thing. These guys are from the holy 170 00:11:05,756 --> 00:11:08,796 Speaker 3: land in the South where this music grows out of 171 00:11:08,796 --> 00:11:12,636 Speaker 3: the ground. So I've got this whole fantasy in my 172 00:11:12,916 --> 00:11:17,556 Speaker 3: mind and everything, and these guys can do it. And 173 00:11:17,596 --> 00:11:21,116 Speaker 3: they were all from the South, and they sounded that 174 00:11:21,156 --> 00:11:24,596 Speaker 3: way and all of it. It's just okay. And I'm 175 00:11:24,676 --> 00:11:28,276 Speaker 3: up in Canada, so you know what I mean. It 176 00:11:28,276 --> 00:11:30,996 Speaker 3: feels like such a distance and I'm trying to figure 177 00:11:31,076 --> 00:11:34,756 Speaker 3: out a way. How can I become a part of this. 178 00:11:35,476 --> 00:11:39,356 Speaker 3: How can I get into this club and they'll accept me. 179 00:11:39,676 --> 00:11:42,116 Speaker 3: So I hear them say I need some So I 180 00:11:42,196 --> 00:11:43,996 Speaker 3: go off and I write a couple of songs. 181 00:11:44,156 --> 00:11:45,796 Speaker 5: Where are you when you write these songs? 182 00:11:46,196 --> 00:11:48,436 Speaker 3: In Toronto, in Cabbage Town? 183 00:11:48,756 --> 00:11:49,556 Speaker 4: You're in high school? 184 00:11:50,196 --> 00:11:52,116 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was fifteen. 185 00:11:53,556 --> 00:11:55,436 Speaker 5: Did you know anything about writing songs? 186 00:11:55,636 --> 00:12:00,436 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I had written some songs already and this 187 00:12:00,636 --> 00:12:03,676 Speaker 3: was just something you just kind of boosted your game up. 188 00:12:03,916 --> 00:12:06,276 Speaker 3: You know. As we go along, certain things happen and 189 00:12:06,276 --> 00:12:08,996 Speaker 3: it makes you think, Okay, now I got to take 190 00:12:09,236 --> 00:12:11,436 Speaker 3: on this challenge and if I can, if I can 191 00:12:11,556 --> 00:12:15,636 Speaker 3: win that war, will I'll now be this will be 192 00:12:15,756 --> 00:12:18,436 Speaker 3: my starting place instead of your something. 193 00:12:18,476 --> 00:12:20,396 Speaker 4: What did you hear Ronnie Hawkins say he needed some 194 00:12:20,476 --> 00:12:21,036 Speaker 4: new songs? 195 00:12:21,476 --> 00:12:25,516 Speaker 3: Well, we I had a band called Robbie and the Robots, 196 00:12:26,356 --> 00:12:31,556 Speaker 3: and we were an opening, you know, act for Ronnie 197 00:12:31,596 --> 00:12:34,516 Speaker 3: Hawkins and the Hawks on a weekend and a dance 198 00:12:35,116 --> 00:12:37,796 Speaker 3: out in the West End of Toronto at an arena. 199 00:12:38,796 --> 00:12:41,356 Speaker 3: So we went on and played. 200 00:12:41,676 --> 00:12:44,436 Speaker 4: You're fifteen Yeah for Ronnie Hawkins. 201 00:12:44,236 --> 00:12:47,756 Speaker 3: And Ronnie and the other guys. They thought, Wow, these 202 00:12:47,836 --> 00:12:51,476 Speaker 3: kids are not bad, you know, they're not too bad, 203 00:12:51,956 --> 00:12:54,676 Speaker 3: and that was all I needed to hear. So I 204 00:12:54,716 --> 00:12:56,996 Speaker 3: was just trying to get some of it. So I 205 00:12:57,116 --> 00:13:00,276 Speaker 3: was hanging around, and then they went on and killed it. 206 00:13:00,956 --> 00:13:04,996 Speaker 3: I had never heard anything like that before, that far, 207 00:13:05,476 --> 00:13:09,116 Speaker 3: that up close. You know, I just heard other bands. 208 00:13:09,876 --> 00:13:14,396 Speaker 3: I'm from Toronto, right and or whatever. This was something 209 00:13:14,716 --> 00:13:17,316 Speaker 3: and you had to get into clubs to really hear 210 00:13:17,436 --> 00:13:19,676 Speaker 3: these people play. But they were doing a thing on 211 00:13:19,676 --> 00:13:22,956 Speaker 3: a weekend. So I see them play and I'm like, 212 00:13:23,116 --> 00:13:30,236 Speaker 3: this is unbelievable. A real rockabilly band, right like Carl 213 00:13:30,316 --> 00:13:34,636 Speaker 3: Perkins and you know Elvis and you know Roy Orbison, 214 00:13:34,756 --> 00:13:37,676 Speaker 3: like you're right out of that school. So I think, 215 00:13:38,076 --> 00:13:41,076 Speaker 3: and the energy and the excitement and the music, and 216 00:13:41,196 --> 00:13:44,956 Speaker 3: Ronnie was an amazing showm in it and he always 217 00:13:45,036 --> 00:13:48,676 Speaker 3: wanted to have killer musicians and they were great. So 218 00:13:48,956 --> 00:13:53,076 Speaker 3: after they played, I was just hanging around trying to 219 00:13:53,116 --> 00:13:55,716 Speaker 3: get some of it to rub off on me, you know, 220 00:13:55,796 --> 00:13:59,356 Speaker 3: some of that musicality. And so I was trying to 221 00:13:59,396 --> 00:14:03,796 Speaker 3: be helpful and hanging around, and then I, you know, 222 00:14:04,956 --> 00:14:08,836 Speaker 3: and and they ended up liking me, and they said, 223 00:14:09,876 --> 00:14:11,996 Speaker 3: all right, you know at the hotel, why don't you 224 00:14:11,996 --> 00:14:14,516 Speaker 3: come by? And I would just try to try to 225 00:14:14,556 --> 00:14:18,636 Speaker 3: make myself useful, you know, and somebody needed a new 226 00:14:18,716 --> 00:14:22,316 Speaker 3: string put on the guitar or whatever anything, you know. 227 00:14:23,236 --> 00:14:28,476 Speaker 3: So I I was hanging around, and I was hanging 228 00:14:28,516 --> 00:14:31,836 Speaker 3: around as much as I could without getting in the way. 229 00:14:32,836 --> 00:14:36,076 Speaker 3: And one day I hear Ronnie Hawk and say, I 230 00:14:36,116 --> 00:14:37,836 Speaker 3: got to make a new record, and I need some 231 00:14:37,916 --> 00:14:41,796 Speaker 3: new songs, you know. So I went home and I 232 00:14:41,836 --> 00:14:45,356 Speaker 3: wrote two songs and brought him back to him, said 233 00:14:45,396 --> 00:14:48,076 Speaker 3: I wrote a couple of songs. I don't know if 234 00:14:48,076 --> 00:14:52,276 Speaker 3: they're you know what you're looking for. So we played 235 00:14:52,316 --> 00:14:57,316 Speaker 3: him the played the new songs, and he said, damn son, 236 00:14:58,636 --> 00:15:00,116 Speaker 3: I'm going to record both of those. 237 00:15:00,316 --> 00:15:01,396 Speaker 4: What was the best of them? 238 00:15:01,596 --> 00:15:04,716 Speaker 3: They weren't any good, you know. I was just trying 239 00:15:04,716 --> 00:15:08,396 Speaker 3: to get in the door. So so I wrote this 240 00:15:08,636 --> 00:15:13,196 Speaker 3: song called someone like You. I think didn't Adele steal 241 00:15:13,316 --> 00:15:19,796 Speaker 3: that title from me on the so anyway, so he 242 00:15:19,916 --> 00:15:24,156 Speaker 3: records the songs, he records, the album comes back to Toronto. 243 00:15:24,236 --> 00:15:27,396 Speaker 3: They're playing at a club, the l Cock Door in Toronto. 244 00:15:28,156 --> 00:15:31,196 Speaker 3: Brings me the album with the songs on it, and 245 00:15:31,236 --> 00:15:34,956 Speaker 3: I'm like cutting my finger trying to get this album 246 00:15:35,116 --> 00:15:38,436 Speaker 3: opened to look and see it on the song credits 247 00:15:38,516 --> 00:15:42,796 Speaker 3: that everything. There's the two songs, and there's my name, 248 00:15:43,996 --> 00:15:48,876 Speaker 3: but it's my name and somebody else's name. And I said, 249 00:15:49,876 --> 00:15:55,836 Speaker 3: who's Levy? I didn't there was no Levy there when 250 00:15:55,876 --> 00:16:01,516 Speaker 3: I wrote these songs. Lev It was Morris Levy, who 251 00:16:01,596 --> 00:16:04,956 Speaker 3: owned the record company Roulette Records that Ronnie was on. 252 00:16:06,476 --> 00:16:10,996 Speaker 3: So I'm like, this, God, how can he just put 253 00:16:11,036 --> 00:16:15,116 Speaker 3: his name on there? So Ronnie's kind of saying, son, 254 00:16:15,236 --> 00:16:18,196 Speaker 3: in this business some you know. He was just giving 255 00:16:18,236 --> 00:16:21,996 Speaker 3: me the old shit happens kind of story, and I'm like, 256 00:16:22,436 --> 00:16:25,476 Speaker 3: this is just wrong though he wasn't. And I'm telling 257 00:16:25,596 --> 00:16:28,076 Speaker 3: Ronnie he wasn't even there when I wrote them. I'm 258 00:16:28,196 --> 00:16:32,716 Speaker 3: just I'm a kid, what do I know? And Ronnie's like, listen, Son, 259 00:16:32,876 --> 00:16:35,796 Speaker 3: these guys, these guys up there in New York, and 260 00:16:35,876 --> 00:16:38,116 Speaker 3: you don't want to mess around with them. They're the 261 00:16:38,236 --> 00:16:40,556 Speaker 3: kind of people you know that you know you're get 262 00:16:40,556 --> 00:16:43,316 Speaker 3: in their way, you know, and they find you in 263 00:16:43,356 --> 00:16:46,716 Speaker 3: the river. He's giving you this whole story. I'm like, 264 00:16:46,796 --> 00:16:52,396 Speaker 3: in the river, he wasn't even there. So anyway, sometime later, 265 00:16:52,636 --> 00:16:55,916 Speaker 3: Ronnie says to me, if you can write songs I 266 00:16:55,916 --> 00:16:58,316 Speaker 3: can write, maybe you'd be good at hearing what I 267 00:16:58,436 --> 00:17:00,476 Speaker 3: was good. So I'm gonna take you to New York 268 00:17:00,876 --> 00:17:03,796 Speaker 3: and I'm gonna take you to the Brill Building and 269 00:17:03,836 --> 00:17:07,596 Speaker 3: we're gonna meet all the songwriters and you're gonna listen 270 00:17:07,596 --> 00:17:09,916 Speaker 3: to their songs and see if they something that would 271 00:17:09,956 --> 00:17:13,396 Speaker 3: be good for me to record. So anyway, we go 272 00:17:13,956 --> 00:17:17,276 Speaker 3: and I meet Doc Palmis and Mark Schuman, I meet 273 00:17:17,356 --> 00:17:22,156 Speaker 3: Lidburn Stroller, I meet Otis Blackwell. It's in my book, Rick. 274 00:17:22,196 --> 00:17:25,676 Speaker 3: When you read that and you hear this whole story, 275 00:17:26,236 --> 00:17:30,636 Speaker 3: it's amazing. Otis Blackwell and Titus Turner, all of these guys, 276 00:17:30,716 --> 00:17:33,996 Speaker 3: and Otis Blackwell is trying to think of a song 277 00:17:34,036 --> 00:17:35,796 Speaker 3: that might be good for wrong. I'm in his little 278 00:17:36,036 --> 00:17:39,116 Speaker 3: room and he's playing a thing on the piano and 279 00:17:39,116 --> 00:17:44,476 Speaker 3: he's accompanying himself telling me how Colonel Tom Parker and 280 00:17:44,636 --> 00:17:48,476 Speaker 3: Elvis fucked him on the song he wrote, Don't Be Cruel. 281 00:17:48,916 --> 00:17:52,636 Speaker 3: While he's telling me the story and accompanying himself on 282 00:17:52,716 --> 00:17:56,756 Speaker 3: the piano, right, and it's like this is amazing, you know. 283 00:17:57,276 --> 00:18:01,316 Speaker 3: And then Lieber and Stoller are playing me songs and 284 00:18:01,356 --> 00:18:06,556 Speaker 3: I'm like, wow, that is a liber in Stoller and 285 00:18:06,596 --> 00:18:10,036 Speaker 3: I'm saying it's great. Do you haven't any more? Then? 286 00:18:10,716 --> 00:18:14,476 Speaker 3: And finally Jerry Lieber says to me, and who are 287 00:18:14,516 --> 00:18:16,916 Speaker 3: you again? And I said, oh, I'm just you know 288 00:18:16,996 --> 00:18:19,876 Speaker 3: what I was like, I was in heaven. And Doc 289 00:18:19,996 --> 00:18:26,156 Speaker 3: Palmis and Lieber and Stoller and Thomas and Schumann went 290 00:18:26,196 --> 00:18:28,116 Speaker 3: on to be friends of mine for the rest of 291 00:18:28,116 --> 00:18:31,356 Speaker 3: their life, as long as they live. We were still 292 00:18:31,396 --> 00:18:35,716 Speaker 3: in contact and friends of mine from that very early point. 293 00:18:36,396 --> 00:18:42,196 Speaker 3: So we are recording, I mean, I'm listening to songs. 294 00:18:42,676 --> 00:18:45,996 Speaker 3: Ronnie says, well, we have to go up to the 295 00:18:46,076 --> 00:18:49,556 Speaker 3: record company and we have to see Morris about some 296 00:18:49,676 --> 00:18:54,956 Speaker 3: things and everything. I think, great, we'll get this songwriting 297 00:18:55,036 --> 00:19:00,116 Speaker 3: thing straightened out once and for all. Right, So we 298 00:19:00,236 --> 00:19:04,556 Speaker 3: go up to this office and it's like a scene 299 00:19:04,716 --> 00:19:09,476 Speaker 3: right out of that Damien Runyon would have written. Is 300 00:19:10,436 --> 00:19:16,676 Speaker 3: there are blondes on the telephone with their hair perfectly 301 00:19:16,716 --> 00:19:20,236 Speaker 3: over one eye, right out of a movie, right, And 302 00:19:20,276 --> 00:19:24,156 Speaker 3: then there's these guys in mohair suits with pock marks 303 00:19:24,476 --> 00:19:27,316 Speaker 3: and a bulge in their you know, in their suit 304 00:19:27,476 --> 00:19:32,156 Speaker 3: Like on this one side, I'm thinking, Wow, these people 305 00:19:32,196 --> 00:19:35,876 Speaker 3: think it's real, you know, they're living in this thing 306 00:19:36,436 --> 00:19:40,516 Speaker 3: and it maybe it is real. Right. So then the 307 00:19:40,636 --> 00:19:47,236 Speaker 3: door opens and Marrie Levy says, Ronnie, Ronnie, I love 308 00:19:47,276 --> 00:19:51,636 Speaker 3: this guy, Ronnie, come on in. And I think what 309 00:19:51,836 --> 00:19:55,796 Speaker 3: happens to gangsters when they're young that their voice goes 310 00:19:55,956 --> 00:19:59,396 Speaker 3: like that. All these gangsters seem to talk this way. 311 00:19:59,676 --> 00:20:01,636 Speaker 2: How old was mars Levy at this time? What do 312 00:20:01,716 --> 00:20:02,036 Speaker 2: you say? 313 00:20:02,116 --> 00:20:05,636 Speaker 3: I don't know. I would say late thirties. 314 00:20:05,836 --> 00:20:07,076 Speaker 2: Wow, how old are you? 315 00:20:07,516 --> 00:20:11,716 Speaker 3: I'm a fifty and a half. I'm by now, I'm 316 00:20:11,756 --> 00:20:18,036 Speaker 3: pushing sixteen, right. So anyway, so we go in and 317 00:20:18,116 --> 00:20:21,276 Speaker 3: Ronnie Hawkins is doing his thing. He's doing the camera 318 00:20:21,356 --> 00:20:29,516 Speaker 3: walk and stuff, and Morris just loves him. So he says, Morris, 319 00:20:30,676 --> 00:20:33,196 Speaker 3: this is this kid I was telling you about that 320 00:20:33,276 --> 00:20:38,036 Speaker 3: I think has a lot of potential. Right. So Morris 321 00:20:38,116 --> 00:20:41,076 Speaker 3: is there and he finally looks at me. He says, yeah. 322 00:20:41,196 --> 00:20:45,076 Speaker 3: He said, if you have to do any time, it'd 323 00:20:45,116 --> 00:20:48,356 Speaker 3: be good to have him with you. And I'm like, 324 00:20:48,396 --> 00:20:50,916 Speaker 3: what is it? He means if you have to go 325 00:20:50,956 --> 00:20:56,916 Speaker 3: to prison, he could be your boy. And I'm like, 326 00:20:58,036 --> 00:21:03,756 Speaker 3: I'm going to forego this songwriting problem completely. I can't 327 00:21:03,836 --> 00:21:08,396 Speaker 3: believe that's the joke that he's telling you. So anyway, 328 00:21:08,836 --> 00:21:12,676 Speaker 3: after this stuff and we and we did find some 329 00:21:12,796 --> 00:21:16,796 Speaker 3: songs that he recorded, and then a few months later 330 00:21:17,836 --> 00:21:21,556 Speaker 3: he calls me and tells me to come down to 331 00:21:21,756 --> 00:21:27,036 Speaker 3: Arkansas to try out because I'm getting better and better 332 00:21:27,516 --> 00:21:31,716 Speaker 3: as a guitar player. And he does think, I don't 333 00:21:31,756 --> 00:21:34,756 Speaker 3: know what it is, but this guy's got something or another. 334 00:21:35,476 --> 00:21:39,196 Speaker 3: And then I go on this mission to prove because 335 00:21:39,196 --> 00:21:45,036 Speaker 3: at sixteen years old, I don't have the experience. I'm 336 00:21:45,036 --> 00:21:49,236 Speaker 3: not a good enough musician yet. And I'm from Canada. 337 00:21:49,916 --> 00:21:54,356 Speaker 3: It's no Canadians and rockabilly bands, so it was unheard of. 338 00:21:54,676 --> 00:21:58,316 Speaker 3: So I had a big mountain to climb and that 339 00:21:58,596 --> 00:22:02,716 Speaker 3: and I went down there and I ended up winning 340 00:22:02,756 --> 00:22:03,356 Speaker 3: that battle. 341 00:22:04,236 --> 00:22:06,116 Speaker 2: How much did you practice back then? Do you remember, 342 00:22:06,276 --> 00:22:08,196 Speaker 2: like to get in your mind to get the job. 343 00:22:08,476 --> 00:22:09,236 Speaker 2: What was it like. 344 00:22:10,436 --> 00:22:14,676 Speaker 3: I practiced till my fingers were bleeding, and I woke 345 00:22:14,796 --> 00:22:19,596 Speaker 3: up many mornings and the bed beside me was my guitar. 346 00:22:21,116 --> 00:22:26,956 Speaker 3: So I just thought I can't. I can't let this 347 00:22:27,076 --> 00:22:31,956 Speaker 3: go by because just to convince my mother too, at 348 00:22:31,996 --> 00:22:35,916 Speaker 3: sixteen years old, I'm leaving school and I'm going to 349 00:22:35,956 --> 00:22:39,756 Speaker 3: the Mississippi Delta to join up with a rock and 350 00:22:39,916 --> 00:22:45,276 Speaker 3: roll band. You know, She's like, what you know, she 351 00:22:45,316 --> 00:22:50,356 Speaker 3: doesn't even understand what this could possibly mean, except she 352 00:22:50,516 --> 00:22:54,556 Speaker 3: could see in my eyes this thing that was so 353 00:22:54,916 --> 00:22:57,796 Speaker 3: driven and that it was I And it was like, 354 00:22:58,476 --> 00:23:04,316 Speaker 3: if I don't try, if I don't do this, I'm 355 00:23:04,316 --> 00:23:07,316 Speaker 3: gonna be sorry the rest of my life. This is 356 00:23:07,356 --> 00:23:11,756 Speaker 3: the biggest opportunity it you know, it couldn't have been 357 00:23:11,956 --> 00:23:17,516 Speaker 3: in my mind a bigger, you know, bigger thing. So 358 00:23:17,996 --> 00:23:20,876 Speaker 3: and I went down there and Ronnie Hawkins was like, oh, Son, 359 00:23:20,956 --> 00:23:23,956 Speaker 3: you're too young, you're too good. I don't know if 360 00:23:23,956 --> 00:23:25,676 Speaker 3: this is going to work out. And I was like, 361 00:23:26,156 --> 00:23:32,436 Speaker 3: you'll see, and I play. I lied about my age, 362 00:23:32,596 --> 00:23:36,516 Speaker 3: you know, for you know, five years. 363 00:23:37,516 --> 00:23:40,076 Speaker 4: Did you did you look older than fifteen at fifteen? 364 00:23:40,956 --> 00:23:45,756 Speaker 3: I was sixteen now sixteen? And Ronnie Hawkins actually said 365 00:23:45,756 --> 00:23:48,836 Speaker 3: to me, he would say, son, can you do something? 366 00:23:48,836 --> 00:23:52,756 Speaker 3: Can you shave? Can you I didn't even shave at 367 00:23:52,796 --> 00:23:54,756 Speaker 3: the time, and I didn't know what to do. And 368 00:23:54,796 --> 00:23:58,636 Speaker 3: I got an electric razor and I started shaving nothing, 369 00:23:59,156 --> 00:24:02,396 Speaker 3: and my face was raw from this electrics. All it 370 00:24:02,476 --> 00:24:05,876 Speaker 3: did was make me red. It didn't make me grow 371 00:24:05,956 --> 00:24:09,556 Speaker 3: any whiskers or nothing. And so for the first while 372 00:24:10,956 --> 00:24:14,276 Speaker 3: where we played, I would stand kind of back a 373 00:24:14,276 --> 00:24:17,836 Speaker 3: little bit in the dark, you know, and because there 374 00:24:17,836 --> 00:24:20,116 Speaker 3: would be lights and everything, and I knew just to 375 00:24:20,116 --> 00:24:22,036 Speaker 3: get out of the way of the lights. And then 376 00:24:22,116 --> 00:24:25,356 Speaker 3: between sets that we would play, I would just go 377 00:24:25,596 --> 00:24:29,196 Speaker 3: in the back room and stay there till it was 378 00:24:29,236 --> 00:24:32,876 Speaker 3: time to go on again, because there was club guys saying, hey, 379 00:24:33,276 --> 00:24:35,516 Speaker 3: I don't want you to get me shut down to Ronnie, 380 00:24:35,596 --> 00:24:37,796 Speaker 3: of course, and Ronnie was like, no, no, don't worry 381 00:24:37,796 --> 00:24:39,756 Speaker 3: about it all. Oh blah blah blah blah. And he 382 00:24:39,796 --> 00:24:42,836 Speaker 3: had to do all this double talking and things, and 383 00:24:42,956 --> 00:24:45,796 Speaker 3: he would say, no, no, no, it's like we call 384 00:24:45,876 --> 00:24:48,876 Speaker 3: him babyface. He just he just looks young, you know, 385 00:24:49,956 --> 00:24:54,276 Speaker 3: he's old enough, he just looks young. But Levon he 386 00:24:55,196 --> 00:24:59,396 Speaker 3: joined Ronnie when he was eighteen, after he graduated from 387 00:24:59,516 --> 00:25:03,196 Speaker 3: high school, and he looked very young, and they got 388 00:25:03,236 --> 00:25:05,876 Speaker 3: away with it. So he thought, well, if he could 389 00:25:05,916 --> 00:25:09,276 Speaker 3: get it away with it from him, you know, And 390 00:25:09,356 --> 00:25:13,076 Speaker 3: then a year after I was with Ronnie Hawkins. All 391 00:25:13,116 --> 00:25:16,996 Speaker 3: the guys from the South except Levon were leaving one 392 00:25:17,036 --> 00:25:21,556 Speaker 3: by one, and then one by one we were hiring Canadians. 393 00:25:22,196 --> 00:25:26,236 Speaker 3: We hired Rick Danko who was from Simcoe, Ontario, then 394 00:25:26,356 --> 00:25:30,916 Speaker 3: Richard Manuel who was from Stratford, Ontario, then Garths Hudson 395 00:25:30,956 --> 00:25:34,236 Speaker 3: who was from London, Ontario. And they all had their 396 00:25:34,276 --> 00:25:40,156 Speaker 3: own bands, so we were, you know, stealing the leaders 397 00:25:40,196 --> 00:25:43,276 Speaker 3: of all of these bands. I was one of those too, 398 00:25:44,036 --> 00:25:47,036 Speaker 3: and that Levon, and I said, we got to get 399 00:25:47,076 --> 00:25:50,796 Speaker 3: that kid. He's you know, he's got potential. 400 00:25:52,396 --> 00:25:55,596 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Robbie Robertson after the break. 401 00:25:59,716 --> 00:26:02,196 Speaker 1: We're back with more from Robbie robertson. 402 00:26:03,356 --> 00:26:06,996 Speaker 5: When and all this did you start writing the music 403 00:26:07,036 --> 00:26:10,636 Speaker 5: that became what we know as band music. Not the 404 00:26:10,676 --> 00:26:14,516 Speaker 5: actual songs, but when did you start hitting on those ideas. 405 00:26:14,236 --> 00:26:19,356 Speaker 3: When the Hawks were the personnel the people that went 406 00:26:19,396 --> 00:26:24,196 Speaker 3: on to become the band. At one point, we outgrew 407 00:26:24,876 --> 00:26:29,356 Speaker 3: the music that we were doing with Ronnie Hawkins, and 408 00:26:29,636 --> 00:26:35,476 Speaker 3: we were experimenting with other kinds of songs and and 409 00:26:35,876 --> 00:26:39,596 Speaker 3: other kinds of music and reaching deeper and getting better 410 00:26:39,716 --> 00:26:43,556 Speaker 3: and better and finally it's you know, we couldn't stay 411 00:26:43,596 --> 00:26:47,636 Speaker 3: in that place, so we left Ronnie Hawkins. So when 412 00:26:47,676 --> 00:26:50,836 Speaker 3: we left Ronnie Hawkins, the idea was, Okay, we're going 413 00:26:50,876 --> 00:26:52,836 Speaker 3: to go out and we're going to play some gigs 414 00:26:52,836 --> 00:26:55,396 Speaker 3: and everything, and then we're going to get a record deal, 415 00:26:56,236 --> 00:27:00,436 Speaker 3: you know, and become who we are, you know. And 416 00:27:00,916 --> 00:27:05,956 Speaker 3: so I started messing around with writing some ideas because 417 00:27:06,116 --> 00:27:10,436 Speaker 3: I was the only one that thought about songwriting in 418 00:27:10,516 --> 00:27:14,556 Speaker 3: the group at that time, because I had written songs before. 419 00:27:14,636 --> 00:27:17,876 Speaker 3: It was kind of like, okay, I guess someone's got 420 00:27:17,876 --> 00:27:19,476 Speaker 3: to do it. I got to do it right, And 421 00:27:19,556 --> 00:27:25,516 Speaker 3: so I started writing some things then. And then just 422 00:27:25,596 --> 00:27:28,556 Speaker 3: as we were getting a record deal and starting to 423 00:27:28,596 --> 00:27:34,596 Speaker 3: do something, this this fellow named Bob Dylan came along 424 00:27:35,036 --> 00:27:39,436 Speaker 3: and asked if we would help take him electric and 425 00:27:40,476 --> 00:27:46,556 Speaker 3: be his band on a world tour. So that kind of, 426 00:27:47,156 --> 00:27:50,116 Speaker 3: you know, it just put everything on hold a little bit. 427 00:27:50,316 --> 00:27:57,196 Speaker 3: But it was like a phenomenal experience what this guy 428 00:27:57,356 --> 00:28:00,236 Speaker 3: was doing at the time. This is just when he 429 00:28:00,396 --> 00:28:04,676 Speaker 3: was going from being the you know, the the man 430 00:28:04,916 --> 00:28:10,716 Speaker 3: in folk songwriting to wanting to do something else and 431 00:28:10,836 --> 00:28:14,556 Speaker 3: wanting to play make music with other musicians and not 432 00:28:14,676 --> 00:28:19,316 Speaker 3: just him in a guitar and harmonica, and that was 433 00:28:20,156 --> 00:28:24,396 Speaker 3: really interesting to me. He was really interesting to me. 434 00:28:25,956 --> 00:28:30,236 Speaker 3: I loved this idea. Some of the other guys were like, hmm, 435 00:28:31,116 --> 00:28:35,076 Speaker 3: I'm not sure about this. You know, we were on 436 00:28:35,156 --> 00:28:37,836 Speaker 3: the from the other side of the tracks. We weren't 437 00:28:37,836 --> 00:28:43,356 Speaker 3: from the folk music world at all. So anyway, it 438 00:28:43,436 --> 00:28:48,396 Speaker 3: was like an interesting experiment in terror playing with Bob Dylan, 439 00:28:49,236 --> 00:28:53,116 Speaker 3: and we toured with him all over North America, all 440 00:28:53,116 --> 00:28:58,516 Speaker 3: over Australia, all over Europe, and people booed and threw 441 00:28:58,556 --> 00:29:02,396 Speaker 3: stuff at us every night, just about everywhere we played, 442 00:29:03,396 --> 00:29:08,636 Speaker 3: and you couldn't help but think, well, who else has 443 00:29:08,676 --> 00:29:13,796 Speaker 3: been through this? Who else knows how this feels. There 444 00:29:13,876 --> 00:29:17,836 Speaker 3: wasn't anybody on that list. I didn't know that this 445 00:29:18,516 --> 00:29:21,916 Speaker 3: had ever happened before, and I'm sure, but not with 446 00:29:21,956 --> 00:29:26,796 Speaker 3: somebody who's on the crest of changing music forever and 447 00:29:26,836 --> 00:29:31,316 Speaker 3: writing songs like nobody's ever written before, and all of 448 00:29:31,356 --> 00:29:36,036 Speaker 3: this stuff that every night we get booed and we 449 00:29:36,156 --> 00:29:40,436 Speaker 3: get through this whole thing alive. So after we got 450 00:29:40,476 --> 00:29:45,196 Speaker 3: through it alive, then it was really time for me 451 00:29:45,276 --> 00:29:49,476 Speaker 3: to start thinking about writing songs because it was like, 452 00:29:49,516 --> 00:29:53,596 Speaker 3: we've done the experiment with Bob Dylan. Now we got 453 00:29:53,596 --> 00:29:56,996 Speaker 3: to get back to doing our own thing. And that's 454 00:29:57,356 --> 00:30:01,396 Speaker 3: when we were doing the basement tapes at Big Pink, 455 00:30:01,516 --> 00:30:04,836 Speaker 3: and it's where, you know, when I started writing and 456 00:30:04,876 --> 00:30:07,996 Speaker 3: thinking about who are we, what do we sound like? 457 00:30:08,156 --> 00:30:09,116 Speaker 3: What are these stories? 458 00:30:09,156 --> 00:30:12,676 Speaker 4: He's yeah, you said that Bob Dylan was interesting to you. 459 00:30:15,156 --> 00:30:16,996 Speaker 4: Why were you interesting to Bob Dylan? 460 00:30:20,156 --> 00:30:26,756 Speaker 3: Probably because we were a real band, a real band 461 00:30:26,796 --> 00:30:31,276 Speaker 3: that played. We weren't some studio musicians that you could hire. 462 00:30:31,796 --> 00:30:34,916 Speaker 3: We were a band that knew how to play with 463 00:30:35,036 --> 00:30:39,596 Speaker 3: one another and had a language already that we spoke 464 00:30:39,676 --> 00:30:43,716 Speaker 3: with one another. And so this unit coming in that 465 00:30:43,876 --> 00:30:48,996 Speaker 3: had a sound, that had a thing amongst them, you know, 466 00:30:49,316 --> 00:30:53,196 Speaker 3: it was like something ready made. In the beginning, when 467 00:30:53,196 --> 00:30:56,076 Speaker 3: I first met with him, he was trying to hire 468 00:30:56,156 --> 00:31:01,036 Speaker 3: me away from the group to play guitar with him 469 00:31:01,036 --> 00:31:04,836 Speaker 3: and some other musicians, and so I had to say, no, no, 470 00:31:05,396 --> 00:31:07,556 Speaker 3: I'm with a group. We're a brotherhood. 471 00:31:07,756 --> 00:31:09,596 Speaker 4: So he was fine with did he. 472 00:31:09,916 --> 00:31:14,916 Speaker 3: Know he wasn't fine in the beginning, And he was like, no, no, 473 00:31:14,956 --> 00:31:18,076 Speaker 3: I got some other guys and you know that are 474 00:31:18,116 --> 00:31:22,076 Speaker 3: really good and everything, and I was like, then, I 475 00:31:22,116 --> 00:31:28,396 Speaker 3: can't do it, you know. And so so he came around. 476 00:31:28,996 --> 00:31:31,996 Speaker 2: Was there a tryout or he just said, let's do. 477 00:31:32,036 --> 00:31:37,316 Speaker 3: This, you know what the tryout was? So I played 478 00:31:37,356 --> 00:31:42,156 Speaker 3: two jobs with him and I said, I can only 479 00:31:42,236 --> 00:31:48,476 Speaker 3: do it if Levon is there too, and and so yeah, 480 00:31:48,596 --> 00:31:52,156 Speaker 3: he said to me, he's a drummer. He said, is 481 00:31:52,196 --> 00:31:54,716 Speaker 3: he as good? There was this big studio drummer at 482 00:31:54,716 --> 00:31:57,476 Speaker 3: the time, Bobby Greg was his name, and he said, 483 00:31:57,516 --> 00:32:00,236 Speaker 3: is he as good as Bobby Greg? I said, oh no, 484 00:32:00,276 --> 00:32:03,476 Speaker 3: he's better than Bobby Greg, you know, and he said, 485 00:32:03,516 --> 00:32:08,356 Speaker 3: oh okay. So anyway, we Levon and I played with 486 00:32:08,476 --> 00:32:12,716 Speaker 3: him and some other musicians for just two jobs we 487 00:32:13,316 --> 00:32:15,956 Speaker 3: said we would do. And it was at Forest Hills 488 00:32:15,996 --> 00:32:20,556 Speaker 3: in New York and the Hollywood Bowl and they and 489 00:32:20,596 --> 00:32:24,996 Speaker 3: they booed, you know, it was like whoa, what's that about? 490 00:32:25,356 --> 00:32:29,436 Speaker 3: And charge the stage and I hated it. 491 00:32:30,196 --> 00:32:31,476 Speaker 4: What was your reaction to that? 492 00:32:32,396 --> 00:32:37,156 Speaker 3: We just played louder and they hated it more. And 493 00:32:37,796 --> 00:32:42,276 Speaker 3: I thought, if Bob can handle us, we can handle this. 494 00:32:43,036 --> 00:32:43,236 Speaker 4: You know. 495 00:32:43,956 --> 00:32:49,836 Speaker 3: And so we just kept going and going and it 496 00:32:49,916 --> 00:32:54,516 Speaker 3: was hurtful. And then there was a point in this 497 00:32:54,756 --> 00:33:00,196 Speaker 3: tour because sometimes they would tape the shows, you know, 498 00:33:00,236 --> 00:33:03,396 Speaker 3: on reel to reel. They would tape it and see 499 00:33:03,396 --> 00:33:06,716 Speaker 3: how that soundman would see how it was sounding, because 500 00:33:06,716 --> 00:33:10,876 Speaker 3: it was like, maybe it's a soundman a fault. So 501 00:33:12,476 --> 00:33:16,076 Speaker 3: there was a point in the tour where we have 502 00:33:16,236 --> 00:33:19,516 Speaker 3: one of these tapes and after the show, we're sitting 503 00:33:19,596 --> 00:33:24,516 Speaker 3: in the hotel room listening to this tape and I 504 00:33:24,676 --> 00:33:31,916 Speaker 3: said to the other guys and Bob, they're wrong, they're wrong. 505 00:33:33,316 --> 00:33:38,476 Speaker 3: This is good, this is really good, and the world 506 00:33:38,676 --> 00:33:43,996 Speaker 3: is wrong and we're right. And it wasn't because I 507 00:33:44,156 --> 00:33:47,556 Speaker 3: was sure of that. It was because if you didn't 508 00:33:47,596 --> 00:33:51,636 Speaker 3: say that, it would be like this is We're in 509 00:33:51,676 --> 00:33:56,396 Speaker 3: a terrible situation. And it just gave you the feistiess, 510 00:33:56,516 --> 00:34:01,876 Speaker 3: or the strength to say we're doing something here and 511 00:34:02,156 --> 00:34:06,076 Speaker 3: if you don't get it, it's your fault. You had 512 00:34:06,116 --> 00:34:09,796 Speaker 3: to take that attitude. And we played all over the 513 00:34:09,836 --> 00:34:14,916 Speaker 3: world and ended up with people booing as loud as ever. 514 00:34:15,316 --> 00:34:19,316 Speaker 3: And we're playing at Albert Hall in London and the 515 00:34:19,356 --> 00:34:22,956 Speaker 3: Beatles are there, and the Stones are there, and the 516 00:34:23,036 --> 00:34:28,316 Speaker 3: Who were there, and everybody's there and the audience is 517 00:34:28,516 --> 00:34:33,156 Speaker 3: booing us and they're all watching this and that is 518 00:34:33,796 --> 00:34:39,276 Speaker 3: that's really awkward. When there's people musicians that you want 519 00:34:39,316 --> 00:34:43,796 Speaker 3: to impress and everybody's booing you, You think, how do 520 00:34:43,876 --> 00:34:49,036 Speaker 3: you possibly think we're any good when everybody's booing us. 521 00:34:49,676 --> 00:34:52,356 Speaker 4: Those guys like it, though, the Stone the Beatles. 522 00:34:52,836 --> 00:34:56,636 Speaker 3: The Beatles said, don't pay any attention to that. They're wrong. 523 00:34:56,756 --> 00:35:02,196 Speaker 3: This was really good, so I was kind of like, see. 524 00:35:04,756 --> 00:35:06,916 Speaker 5: But Levon didn't like it though. 525 00:35:07,836 --> 00:35:11,236 Speaker 3: He didn't like that. Nobody likes being booed and people 526 00:35:11,276 --> 00:35:16,876 Speaker 3: throwing stuff at you. You know, I'm I'm quite convinced 527 00:35:16,876 --> 00:35:20,796 Speaker 3: of that. But Levon didn't like the music. He didn't 528 00:35:20,876 --> 00:35:24,076 Speaker 3: like Bob Dylan's music. He didn't like any of this 529 00:35:24,796 --> 00:35:28,596 Speaker 3: and didn't want to be playing with him at all. 530 00:35:29,716 --> 00:35:32,956 Speaker 3: Levon left. Then when we all moved to Woodstock and 531 00:35:32,996 --> 00:35:36,396 Speaker 3: we had Big Pink, we called Levon and said, okay, 532 00:35:37,076 --> 00:35:38,916 Speaker 3: you got to it's time to come back. And he 533 00:35:38,996 --> 00:35:42,716 Speaker 3: came back, and Bob was like a different guy. He 534 00:35:42,796 --> 00:35:46,596 Speaker 3: looked completely different, and he was writing songs and he 535 00:35:46,756 --> 00:35:50,596 Speaker 3: was you know, it was just great. And Levon came 536 00:35:50,716 --> 00:35:54,876 Speaker 3: back and loved it all, loved being you know, back 537 00:35:54,916 --> 00:36:00,756 Speaker 3: with his brothers, and loved Bob and came around on 538 00:36:00,796 --> 00:36:05,636 Speaker 3: the music, he understood something, he had time to understand it. 539 00:36:06,236 --> 00:36:09,756 Speaker 3: Plus the songs that I was starting to write, he 540 00:36:09,956 --> 00:36:14,676 Speaker 3: was like, Oh, that's who we are, you know. So 541 00:36:14,716 --> 00:36:18,436 Speaker 3: the pieces were coming together and he came back into 542 00:36:18,476 --> 00:36:21,516 Speaker 3: the fold bigger and stronger than ever. 543 00:36:21,796 --> 00:36:24,996 Speaker 5: When did you know you had or was there a 544 00:36:25,036 --> 00:36:28,196 Speaker 5: particular song that, when you finished you said, okay, this 545 00:36:28,316 --> 00:36:30,876 Speaker 5: is our sound. I think I'm getting it. Was there 546 00:36:30,916 --> 00:36:34,996 Speaker 5: one moment or one song that kind of gave you 547 00:36:35,116 --> 00:36:36,836 Speaker 5: the idea for what the band could be. 548 00:36:38,636 --> 00:36:43,396 Speaker 3: No, I didn't know. We were just experimenting and in 549 00:36:43,436 --> 00:36:49,956 Speaker 3: a discovery process. I didn't know it until we were 550 00:36:49,996 --> 00:36:55,276 Speaker 3: recording it. And I was playing something for Rick the 551 00:36:55,316 --> 00:37:03,796 Speaker 3: other day that we recorded something and it was breaking 552 00:37:03,956 --> 00:37:06,716 Speaker 3: all kinds of rules and the way you record and 553 00:37:06,716 --> 00:37:08,716 Speaker 3: what you do and what you're not supposed to do 554 00:37:09,556 --> 00:37:15,556 Speaker 3: and everything. And we were trying this and it was 555 00:37:15,636 --> 00:37:20,116 Speaker 3: discouraging what they were telling us going into it, but 556 00:37:20,196 --> 00:37:22,956 Speaker 3: we were doing what we knew how to do, and 557 00:37:22,996 --> 00:37:26,036 Speaker 3: we recorded it, and then we went in and heard 558 00:37:26,076 --> 00:37:31,556 Speaker 3: it and I said, that's it. That's who we are, 559 00:37:32,396 --> 00:37:36,476 Speaker 3: that's what we sound like. And it was unlike anybody 560 00:37:36,516 --> 00:37:41,916 Speaker 3: else or anything. And still at the time you think, 561 00:37:42,396 --> 00:37:44,676 Speaker 3: and that's either a good thing or a bad thing. 562 00:37:45,076 --> 00:37:47,916 Speaker 3: That song was what Well, there was two songs that 563 00:37:47,956 --> 00:37:52,036 Speaker 3: I played for him. One song was called Tears of Rage, 564 00:37:52,636 --> 00:37:55,956 Speaker 3: which was the first song that we recorded on the album, 565 00:37:56,196 --> 00:38:00,516 Speaker 3: and it's the first song on the album. And then 566 00:38:01,036 --> 00:38:05,876 Speaker 3: we recorded a song called The Weight. And then when 567 00:38:05,916 --> 00:38:10,276 Speaker 3: we recorded these songs, it was like, Okay. 568 00:38:09,476 --> 00:38:11,556 Speaker 5: Can you tell me a little bit about writing the 569 00:38:11,596 --> 00:38:15,116 Speaker 5: Weight because it's just such an unusual song, like how 570 00:38:15,156 --> 00:38:15,916 Speaker 5: it came to you? 571 00:38:16,156 --> 00:38:20,276 Speaker 3: Or well, I was saying, this was a song, This 572 00:38:20,516 --> 00:38:24,596 Speaker 3: was a spare song. This was a song that I 573 00:38:24,876 --> 00:38:28,796 Speaker 3: had that if something else didn't work out, we could 574 00:38:28,956 --> 00:38:33,116 Speaker 3: use it. So we had to put it together mostly 575 00:38:33,716 --> 00:38:36,876 Speaker 3: right there in the studio. I had played it for 576 00:38:36,916 --> 00:38:41,596 Speaker 3: the guys before and everybody thought, yeah, cool, you know, 577 00:38:42,356 --> 00:38:47,116 Speaker 3: but nobody was like, whoa, that's it, that's a you know, 578 00:38:48,036 --> 00:38:52,796 Speaker 3: none of us knew. And then when I was writing 579 00:38:52,836 --> 00:38:58,596 Speaker 3: this song, I was drawing on these influences from when 580 00:38:58,596 --> 00:39:02,516 Speaker 3: I was sixteen years old and went from Canada down 581 00:39:02,556 --> 00:39:06,996 Speaker 3: to the Mississippi Delta. Some of those characters, some of 582 00:39:07,036 --> 00:39:11,516 Speaker 3: those images, you know, I had now pulled them out 583 00:39:11,516 --> 00:39:17,196 Speaker 3: of my trunk of imagination, and I was incorporating them 584 00:39:17,276 --> 00:39:21,956 Speaker 3: into a musicality and in the stories. And I was 585 00:39:22,116 --> 00:39:26,276 Speaker 3: also very much which you know, I've said this before 586 00:39:26,436 --> 00:39:31,556 Speaker 3: that I was very much into Lewis Boonewell's films. And 587 00:39:31,596 --> 00:39:37,876 Speaker 3: there was there was something, there was something in his 588 00:39:39,156 --> 00:39:44,076 Speaker 3: the a thematic thread in some of his movies that 589 00:39:44,196 --> 00:39:47,276 Speaker 3: I couldn't get over. And it was really about people 590 00:39:47,956 --> 00:39:52,396 Speaker 3: trying to be good, really trying to do the right thing, 591 00:39:53,276 --> 00:39:57,756 Speaker 3: and then something comes along and something turns it upside 592 00:39:57,796 --> 00:40:01,836 Speaker 3: down on its head, right. And so this was a 593 00:40:01,876 --> 00:40:07,316 Speaker 3: story about a guy who comes into this town. It's 594 00:40:07,356 --> 00:40:12,476 Speaker 3: called Nazareth, and it's because that's where the guitar company 595 00:40:12,556 --> 00:40:15,476 Speaker 3: is from. So I look in my guitar and it 596 00:40:15,516 --> 00:40:20,836 Speaker 3: says Nazareth, Pennsylvania. Right. So I look in there and 597 00:40:20,876 --> 00:40:25,516 Speaker 3: I say, I pulled into Nazareth, right. And I start 598 00:40:25,596 --> 00:40:28,836 Speaker 3: writing this story and it's about a guy who goes 599 00:40:29,076 --> 00:40:34,876 Speaker 3: somewhere and everybody that he runs into it's like he's 600 00:40:35,076 --> 00:40:38,476 Speaker 3: just trying to be of goodwill. He's just trying to 601 00:40:38,516 --> 00:40:42,476 Speaker 3: do the right thing, and it turns into it's like 602 00:40:42,516 --> 00:40:48,356 Speaker 3: the old saying, it depends on who you run into. 603 00:40:48,996 --> 00:40:53,276 Speaker 3: And storytelling you're going along, you think you've got an idea, 604 00:40:53,636 --> 00:40:56,996 Speaker 3: but it depends on who you run into, right, And 605 00:40:57,076 --> 00:41:01,676 Speaker 3: so I'm thinking of all of these characters, and some 606 00:41:01,756 --> 00:41:07,036 Speaker 3: of them are based on characters that I imagined or I 607 00:41:07,156 --> 00:41:09,796 Speaker 3: met when I went down to the mississip Be Delta, 608 00:41:10,796 --> 00:41:13,636 Speaker 3: and I'm thinking, what would be really cool for Levon. 609 00:41:14,356 --> 00:41:18,956 Speaker 3: I knew his instrument really well, of his voice and everything, 610 00:41:19,796 --> 00:41:27,436 Speaker 3: and I thought I thought I was doing a Lewis 611 00:41:27,476 --> 00:41:33,276 Speaker 3: Boone Weell thing. I wasn't, but I thought I was right, 612 00:41:33,876 --> 00:41:36,756 Speaker 3: and I thought I was, and I when I wrote 613 00:41:36,796 --> 00:41:39,636 Speaker 3: the song, I thought, well, there's a song. I never 614 00:41:39,676 --> 00:41:42,956 Speaker 3: heard that song before. Maybe that's good, you know, but 615 00:41:43,716 --> 00:41:48,356 Speaker 3: it was unfamiliar, and so with that you think, geez, 616 00:41:48,476 --> 00:41:52,476 Speaker 3: I don't know is that good or bad? Is that 617 00:41:52,596 --> 00:41:58,356 Speaker 3: different or just obscure, you know, like record producers have 618 00:41:58,476 --> 00:42:04,556 Speaker 3: to consider when they're making music. And so when I 619 00:42:04,676 --> 00:42:09,036 Speaker 3: taught the song to the guys, and everybody was kind 620 00:42:09,036 --> 00:42:13,676 Speaker 3: of enjoying. They knew where I was coming from and 621 00:42:13,796 --> 00:42:17,396 Speaker 3: some of these things. The other guys didn't care about 622 00:42:17,796 --> 00:42:22,036 Speaker 3: Lewis boonwell or anything, but I did. And so anyway, 623 00:42:21,716 --> 00:42:25,036 Speaker 3: they took the ride on it and as we were 624 00:42:25,076 --> 00:42:28,436 Speaker 3: getting into it, we were kind of smiling to one another, 625 00:42:28,636 --> 00:42:32,316 Speaker 3: like that verse that Carmen and the Devil verse, you know, 626 00:42:32,956 --> 00:42:36,076 Speaker 3: that's pretty cool. And then all this thing and ah, 627 00:42:36,356 --> 00:42:39,836 Speaker 3: and then it has like a conclusion that ties it 628 00:42:39,916 --> 00:42:43,956 Speaker 3: together or something like a movie would all of these things. 629 00:42:43,996 --> 00:42:47,916 Speaker 3: I've just been a movie bug, you know, so long. 630 00:42:48,476 --> 00:42:53,476 Speaker 3: So anyway, I was making a little movie. And then 631 00:42:53,556 --> 00:42:59,156 Speaker 3: we record the song and I have no idea except 632 00:42:59,156 --> 00:43:01,836 Speaker 3: we got through the whole song, didn't make a mistake, 633 00:43:02,636 --> 00:43:05,476 Speaker 3: felt pretty good. We went in and listened to it 634 00:43:05,516 --> 00:43:12,116 Speaker 3: and I thought, holy moly, that's a thing. That's a 635 00:43:12,116 --> 00:43:16,196 Speaker 3: thing right there. That's a sound that's I haven't heard 636 00:43:16,236 --> 00:43:19,676 Speaker 3: that before, you know, And all of those things then 637 00:43:19,876 --> 00:43:22,556 Speaker 3: add up for you inside. 638 00:43:22,756 --> 00:43:26,316 Speaker 4: You know, can you put your finger on what was 639 00:43:26,436 --> 00:43:29,316 Speaker 4: so unique about that sound? Or is it just a 640 00:43:29,396 --> 00:43:30,756 Speaker 4: kind of gestal thing. 641 00:43:30,636 --> 00:43:35,276 Speaker 3: That No, that's part of the great holy mystery that 642 00:43:35,396 --> 00:43:39,476 Speaker 3: you really don't know. And if you think you do, 643 00:43:40,196 --> 00:43:43,196 Speaker 3: then you're not ready for a good surprise, you know. 644 00:43:43,796 --> 00:43:46,196 Speaker 3: Going in and I say, Garths, why don't you play 645 00:43:46,276 --> 00:43:49,836 Speaker 3: piano on this? And Richard you play Oregon. And then 646 00:43:49,876 --> 00:43:52,356 Speaker 3: when we get to this part in the song, why 647 00:43:52,396 --> 00:43:55,556 Speaker 3: don't we do this and wait and then you come in, 648 00:43:55,636 --> 00:43:58,676 Speaker 3: and then you come in, and then you come in together, 649 00:43:59,276 --> 00:44:02,076 Speaker 3: and then you know, and then that folds over on 650 00:44:02,196 --> 00:44:06,236 Speaker 3: top of itself. And all of these ideas I had 651 00:44:06,476 --> 00:44:10,116 Speaker 3: no idea whether if they were good ideas. I thought that, 652 00:44:10,196 --> 00:44:12,996 Speaker 3: you know, it's enough to make you want to do something. 653 00:44:13,636 --> 00:44:15,876 Speaker 3: Then we got the song and I say, you know what, 654 00:44:16,636 --> 00:44:20,396 Speaker 3: on this second last verse, Rick, why don't you take 655 00:44:20,436 --> 00:44:24,036 Speaker 3: over the lead vocal on that? It just seemed like 656 00:44:24,076 --> 00:44:28,996 Speaker 3: a good idea at the time, And once again, it 657 00:44:29,236 --> 00:44:34,316 Speaker 3: wasn't until we went in that control room heard it 658 00:44:34,356 --> 00:44:38,756 Speaker 3: over those speakers that Garth playing the piano on that 659 00:44:39,516 --> 00:44:45,756 Speaker 3: really made sense. That Levon's drums with these big tune 660 00:44:45,796 --> 00:44:48,916 Speaker 3: down toms that I had asked him if he'd be 661 00:44:48,996 --> 00:44:53,676 Speaker 3: okay doing, and his vocal. I wasn't even sure this 662 00:44:53,716 --> 00:44:56,676 Speaker 3: is the key I wrote it in. I don't know 663 00:44:56,676 --> 00:44:58,476 Speaker 3: if it's a good key for you to sing it in. 664 00:44:59,236 --> 00:45:01,716 Speaker 3: And he's like, yeah, no, I think it's okay. So 665 00:45:01,956 --> 00:45:04,596 Speaker 3: all of these things are way up in the air 666 00:45:05,596 --> 00:45:09,996 Speaker 3: and no idea really, and then when you hear it 667 00:45:10,116 --> 00:45:14,796 Speaker 3: all come together and those pieces of the puzzle actually 668 00:45:14,876 --> 00:45:18,756 Speaker 3: fit that's when you say, yeah, I knew all along. 669 00:45:21,436 --> 00:45:25,036 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Robbie Robertson after the break, 670 00:45:29,076 --> 00:45:32,556 Speaker 1: We're back with more of a conversation with Robbie Robertson. 671 00:45:33,236 --> 00:45:36,156 Speaker 1: The band eventually broke up with one final concert in 672 00:45:36,276 --> 00:45:40,316 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six. It was filmed by Martin Scorsese and 673 00:45:40,516 --> 00:45:45,156 Speaker 1: released as The Last Waltz. It's become legendary and kicked 674 00:45:45,196 --> 00:45:49,516 Speaker 1: off a decades long working relationship between Robbie and Scorsese, 675 00:45:50,916 --> 00:45:53,956 Speaker 1: starting with Raging Bull. Robbie's done the music for most 676 00:45:53,996 --> 00:45:58,956 Speaker 1: of Scorsese's films, including his most recent The Irishman. Not 677 00:45:59,076 --> 00:46:01,716 Speaker 1: too long ago, Rick discovered a piece of music that 678 00:46:01,796 --> 00:46:04,116 Speaker 1: he loved, and when he found out it was from 679 00:46:04,116 --> 00:46:07,876 Speaker 1: a Scorsese movie, he had to ask Robbie about his involvement. 680 00:46:09,436 --> 00:46:12,716 Speaker 2: So I heard this on the radio on some obscure 681 00:46:14,236 --> 00:46:19,156 Speaker 2: streaming thing, had no idea what it was, and started 682 00:46:19,156 --> 00:46:21,836 Speaker 2: researching trying to find out because I hadn't heard anything 683 00:46:21,916 --> 00:46:25,396 Speaker 2: like this before. It was fascinating to me, And it 684 00:46:25,436 --> 00:46:33,476 Speaker 2: was fascinating because I was familiar with the music, but 685 00:46:33,636 --> 00:46:36,036 Speaker 2: not familiar enough to know what it was. But I 686 00:46:36,076 --> 00:46:38,356 Speaker 2: feel like I'd heard the music before, and then I'm 687 00:46:38,356 --> 00:46:40,596 Speaker 2: listening to the vocals and I'm thinking this, the singer 688 00:46:40,716 --> 00:46:44,076 Speaker 2: is unbelievable. But it sounds like the singer's not listening 689 00:46:44,156 --> 00:46:47,516 Speaker 2: to the music she's singing to even though it fits 690 00:46:47,596 --> 00:46:54,396 Speaker 2: like it clearly works, but there's a strange, alien connection 691 00:46:54,596 --> 00:46:56,956 Speaker 2: to it. And it just sounds like magic to me. 692 00:46:57,116 --> 00:46:59,956 Speaker 2: That sounds like a brand new kind of music. So 693 00:47:00,076 --> 00:47:01,676 Speaker 2: when I saw Robbie the other day, I asked him 694 00:47:01,676 --> 00:47:04,836 Speaker 2: about it because I didn't know who made it, but 695 00:47:04,916 --> 00:47:07,236 Speaker 2: I knew that it was in a soundtrack that he 696 00:47:07,276 --> 00:47:08,796 Speaker 2: was involved in, and I asked him how it came 697 00:47:08,796 --> 00:47:12,716 Speaker 2: to pack us and tell us how it came to pass. 698 00:47:13,796 --> 00:47:20,716 Speaker 3: I was working on the music from Martin Scorsese's movie 699 00:47:20,756 --> 00:47:30,156 Speaker 3: Shutter Island, and and I was I was on a 700 00:47:30,356 --> 00:47:33,796 Speaker 3: roll of a certain kind of music that him and 701 00:47:33,876 --> 00:47:40,476 Speaker 3: I hadn't really experimented with much before, with Christoph Pendereeski, 702 00:47:41,196 --> 00:47:46,116 Speaker 3: who is somebody that I've admired for years. And I 703 00:47:46,236 --> 00:47:52,116 Speaker 3: told I've said to Marty over some days, sometime we've 704 00:47:52,116 --> 00:47:56,516 Speaker 3: got to find a way to use some Pendereski and 705 00:47:56,556 --> 00:48:02,076 Speaker 3: some John Cage and some you know, modern classical music 706 00:48:02,836 --> 00:48:07,076 Speaker 3: in a movie. So when he decided he was going 707 00:48:07,116 --> 00:48:13,596 Speaker 3: to direct this film, and he sent me the script 708 00:48:14,396 --> 00:48:16,956 Speaker 3: and uh, and he said, yea, is it give you 709 00:48:16,996 --> 00:48:21,876 Speaker 3: any ideas? And I said, this is it. This is 710 00:48:21,916 --> 00:48:25,636 Speaker 3: the time, this is when we can. I think we can. 711 00:48:25,916 --> 00:48:30,556 Speaker 3: He said, whoa really modern classical music and that he said, 712 00:48:30,676 --> 00:48:37,156 Speaker 3: interesting because it's a it's a movie about insanity and 713 00:48:37,156 --> 00:48:43,516 Speaker 3: and modern classical music is fearless and expressing some of 714 00:48:43,556 --> 00:48:48,476 Speaker 3: that part of of of the mind. So anyway, we 715 00:48:48,556 --> 00:48:51,556 Speaker 3: did a lot of things that in the movie and 716 00:48:51,596 --> 00:48:55,156 Speaker 3: it was great fun and so we you know, all 717 00:48:55,156 --> 00:48:57,876 Speaker 3: this stuff. And then at the end it was like 718 00:48:58,036 --> 00:49:01,716 Speaker 3: he said, I said, I don't have anything figured out 719 00:49:01,796 --> 00:49:06,636 Speaker 3: yet for the end of the movie and the end credits. 720 00:49:08,356 --> 00:49:15,756 Speaker 3: So I had heard this piece of music by this composer, 721 00:49:16,036 --> 00:49:22,476 Speaker 3: Max Richter. I think it's called Daylight something or but anyway, 722 00:49:22,596 --> 00:49:26,796 Speaker 3: i'd heard this piece of music and there was almost 723 00:49:26,796 --> 00:49:30,316 Speaker 3: the dodgy oh wish you know, there was something that 724 00:49:30,636 --> 00:49:35,276 Speaker 3: really pulled on your heartstrings in it, and it fit 725 00:49:35,436 --> 00:49:40,356 Speaker 3: in to the other world that we were experimenting. And 726 00:49:40,396 --> 00:49:44,916 Speaker 3: there was a song that I knew about for years 727 00:49:45,316 --> 00:49:50,276 Speaker 3: just that stayed with me. By Dinah Washington, who has 728 00:49:50,436 --> 00:49:57,156 Speaker 3: always been a favorite of mine, her sound, her interpretation, 729 00:49:58,476 --> 00:50:01,716 Speaker 3: I've you know, she's just one of my faves over 730 00:50:01,756 --> 00:50:05,916 Speaker 3: the years. So I'm thinking about this song, this Bitter 731 00:50:06,076 --> 00:50:10,236 Speaker 3: Earth that she sang, I'm thinking about this Max Richter 732 00:50:10,436 --> 00:50:16,076 Speaker 3: classical piece and I and there was a connection there 733 00:50:16,156 --> 00:50:19,596 Speaker 3: for me. So then I have them. I check it. 734 00:50:20,716 --> 00:50:28,116 Speaker 3: They're both in the same key hmm. So I then 735 00:50:28,556 --> 00:50:33,476 Speaker 3: took the Dinah Washington piece and I cut out each 736 00:50:33,596 --> 00:50:37,276 Speaker 3: of her lines in the song like you would a 737 00:50:37,396 --> 00:50:42,956 Speaker 3: sample and hip hop and it so I had her 738 00:50:43,076 --> 00:50:47,636 Speaker 3: whole performance. Now I've got the Max Richter piece. So 739 00:50:47,756 --> 00:50:53,196 Speaker 3: I take her line by line and lay her in 740 00:50:53,916 --> 00:50:57,396 Speaker 3: the way I would have sung it on top of 741 00:50:57,516 --> 00:51:01,276 Speaker 3: the Max Richter thing. I just put her there and 742 00:51:01,356 --> 00:51:05,116 Speaker 3: I do this thing. And it's I don't even know 743 00:51:05,156 --> 00:51:08,516 Speaker 3: if you're allowed to do that. It's like, can you 744 00:51:09,316 --> 00:51:13,516 Speaker 3: can you do that with Dinah Washington and this great composer, 745 00:51:13,836 --> 00:51:18,436 Speaker 3: Max Richter. I don't know, but I can't help but 746 00:51:18,556 --> 00:51:23,516 Speaker 3: do this. So I lay this stuff in. I send 747 00:51:23,556 --> 00:51:29,436 Speaker 3: it to Scarcese and say, I've tried something here, but 748 00:51:29,476 --> 00:51:31,356 Speaker 3: I've got to warn you. I don't know that this 749 00:51:31,516 --> 00:51:38,036 Speaker 3: is okay, but there's something about it and see what 750 00:51:38,396 --> 00:51:40,756 Speaker 3: So he said, what do you mean not okay? And 751 00:51:40,796 --> 00:51:44,556 Speaker 3: I said, I've taken a liberty on this thing, and 752 00:51:44,596 --> 00:51:48,436 Speaker 3: I'm taking somebody's music and I'm putting it with somebody 753 00:51:48,436 --> 00:51:52,156 Speaker 3: else's music. And this is not like a little sample 754 00:51:52,956 --> 00:51:55,836 Speaker 3: in a hip hop too and where we're playing a 755 00:51:55,836 --> 00:51:58,356 Speaker 3: little riff of James Brown here for a moment and 756 00:51:58,396 --> 00:52:02,076 Speaker 3: then we're onto something else. This is the whole piece 757 00:52:03,116 --> 00:52:07,276 Speaker 3: of these two artists. So anyway I it. He says, 758 00:52:07,356 --> 00:52:11,156 Speaker 3: oh my god, this is beautiful fault and it's perfect 759 00:52:11,796 --> 00:52:15,716 Speaker 3: at the end of this movie, and what did this thing? 760 00:52:16,276 --> 00:52:19,996 Speaker 3: And to have this bitter earth come on after this thing? 761 00:52:20,956 --> 00:52:28,036 Speaker 3: And so anyway, so then I say, well, I'm not 762 00:52:28,116 --> 00:52:30,316 Speaker 3: going to call them and ask him if it's okay. 763 00:52:30,436 --> 00:52:36,116 Speaker 3: Somebody has to call Max Richter and Dinah Washington's family 764 00:52:36,396 --> 00:52:39,956 Speaker 3: or kids or whoever and see if it's okay that 765 00:52:40,036 --> 00:52:44,196 Speaker 3: I've done this right. And they called and they give 766 00:52:44,276 --> 00:52:46,876 Speaker 3: the coming back and they said they heard it and 767 00:52:46,916 --> 00:52:51,796 Speaker 3: they love it. I thought, wow, that's a really good sign, 768 00:52:52,196 --> 00:52:54,436 Speaker 3: you know, because a lot of people are like, you 769 00:52:54,516 --> 00:53:00,356 Speaker 3: cannot mess with this, you know, you you know, you 770 00:53:00,396 --> 00:53:05,596 Speaker 3: can't cross that line. That's that's a sin, right, and 771 00:53:05,676 --> 00:53:08,996 Speaker 3: that they said they liked it. So anyway, it ended 772 00:53:09,316 --> 00:53:11,836 Speaker 3: up at the end of this movie. And I was 773 00:53:11,876 --> 00:53:17,436 Speaker 3: telling Rick the other day some months ago, I'm watching 774 00:53:17,596 --> 00:53:22,156 Speaker 3: a French movie that I was curious about. I'm watching 775 00:53:22,236 --> 00:53:26,036 Speaker 3: this movie and throughout the movie they used this piece 776 00:53:26,076 --> 00:53:32,396 Speaker 3: of music, and so I'd say to Martin Scerceesi I said, wow, 777 00:53:32,476 --> 00:53:36,636 Speaker 3: I was watching this movie and they were using this 778 00:53:36,756 --> 00:53:40,516 Speaker 3: throughout the movie, not just once. They're using it, you know, 779 00:53:40,556 --> 00:53:44,356 Speaker 3: a few times. And he says, they can't do that. 780 00:53:46,396 --> 00:53:50,036 Speaker 3: I said, they did. It might be too late for 781 00:53:50,156 --> 00:53:51,076 Speaker 3: us to object. 782 00:53:51,276 --> 00:53:52,796 Speaker 5: And then they look at the soundtrack and they said, 783 00:53:52,796 --> 00:53:58,836 Speaker 5: who's Morris Levy. Yeah, it makes your voice sounds Guy's 784 00:53:58,876 --> 00:54:00,036 Speaker 5: like I know that voice. 785 00:54:00,236 --> 00:54:00,636 Speaker 3: Yeah. 786 00:54:00,676 --> 00:54:01,556 Speaker 5: I never would have guessed. 787 00:54:01,556 --> 00:54:03,156 Speaker 2: I never would have made the connection. 788 00:54:03,636 --> 00:54:05,596 Speaker 5: It sounds a Morts exactly. 789 00:54:05,676 --> 00:54:09,076 Speaker 2: It's like it's so modern. It felt just completely about Goard, 790 00:54:09,476 --> 00:54:11,436 Speaker 2: but beautiful and unlike anything I heard before. 791 00:54:14,356 --> 00:54:16,876 Speaker 1: Thanks to Robbie Robertson for coming on the show and 792 00:54:17,036 --> 00:54:20,916 Speaker 1: of course for creating Changri La. You can hear some 793 00:54:20,996 --> 00:54:25,036 Speaker 1: of Robbie's music, including Song's Office twenty nineteen release Cinematic 794 00:54:25,196 --> 00:54:28,196 Speaker 1: by listening to our playlist for this episode at broken 795 00:54:28,316 --> 00:54:32,076 Speaker 1: record podcast dot com, and while you there, sign up 796 00:54:32,116 --> 00:54:36,156 Speaker 1: for our behinder scene in this newsletter. Broken Record is 797 00:54:36,196 --> 00:54:39,956 Speaker 1: produced help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, Mia Lobel and 798 00:54:40,116 --> 00:54:43,076 Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries. Our The music's by 799 00:54:43,196 --> 00:54:46,116 Speaker 1: Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.