WEBVTT - Barr Broke From Mueller On Who Calls Obstruction: Mintz 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:05.320 Welcome to the Bloomberg pen L Podcast. I'm Paul Swinge. You, 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:07.680 along with my co host Lisa Brahma Waits. Each day 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:10.240 we bring you the most noteworthy and useful interviews for 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:12.520 you and your money. Whether at the grocery store or 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:15.480 the trading floor. Find a Bloomberg Penl podcast on Apple 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:17.959 podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts, as well as 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:23.079 at Bloomberg dot com. Well, we continue to pour through 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:27.560 through the page Muller Report. We welcome Jim Grosso, co 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:30.200 host of Politics, Policy, Power and Law. June. Have you 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:33.879 read All Foes yet? Oh? Yes, I have. It's you know. 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:36.400 And also we're going through it not in hard copy 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:39.160 form but on a computer, so it's sort of difficult 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:41.879 to read. And we don't have the color coding on 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:47.080 the website. At the website, I know, I don't understand it. 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:49.320 We just have the blacked out But I'll tell you 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:54.000 it's what strikes me is that it is far different 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.400 from what Attorney General William Barr painted the picture he 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:00.960 painted this morning. In his press conference, he talked a 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:04.319 lot about collusion and said that Trump that it proved 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.480 that there was no collusion. But Muller on collusion, notes 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.280 that he did not try to prove collusion. So I 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:12.640 thought it was kind of strange that word collusion has 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:16.039 been thrown into this by President Trump, because, as we've 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:18.920 said many times, it's not a word a lawyer would use. 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:21.840 A lawyer would use the word conspiracy. So it was 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:25.880 odd that that the a g bar used that today. 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:30.039 And and also, I mean what strikes me immediately is 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:34.679 the the that Don McGan, the White House Counsel, his 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:38.399 interactions with the President, and that he almost came to 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.880 the point of wanting to step down, packing his stuff up. 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:45.559 It reminded me it echoed Elliott Richardson, who stepped down 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:51.040 when Richard Nixon asked him to remove Special Counsel Archibald Cox, 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:53.880 and he said that he told the Chief of Staff 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.960 Rhins pre was that Trump had asked him to do crazy, 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:00.720 i'll say stuff, and that he was leaving. So you 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:04.960 have this context that really makes sort of rich what 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:07.600 we already know the bare bones up. And to get 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:11.040 his reaction, I'd like to bring in someone who who 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:13.920 has been able with a prosecutor for many years. He 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.880 is now the head of the white collar division at 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.760 McCarter and English that's Robert Mints from a federal prosecutor. Bob, 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:23.760 what do you have from looking at this report? What 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:27.880 do you see that either uh supports what Attorney General 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:32.400 Barr said or contradicts it. Well, June, I think that 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:35.880 the press conference held by an attorney general was a 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:39.239 fairly full throaded defense of the president. I thought that 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:42.560 it would have been more proper for this press conference 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:46.480 to have outlined the process that he went through in 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:50.480 redacting the report and in handing taking the information that 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:53.040 he had received from a special Council and the passing 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:54.880 that along to Congress on the public as opposed to 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.720 getting into the substance of it. I was also struck 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:00.040 by the fact that he talked a lot about the 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:03.840 sincere beliefs of the president, really trying to get into 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:09.360 the president's mindset and using that as a admittedly used 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:12.079 that in reaching his decision that he believed that there 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.720 was no obstruction of justice case. Because he said that 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.760 because the president sincerely believed he had done nothing wrong, 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:20.960 that that sort of weighed in his favor in terms 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.000 of some of the conduct. And I think that's a 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.720 fairly controversial statement to make you merely because someone might 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:30.160 be considered um paranoid and be looking at what's going 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:33.840 on and feelingly being treated unfairly doesn't necessarily mean that 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:36.840 they're not then trying to obstruct an investigation. I think 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.720 that's really very much of an open question, Bob. The 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.160 question I have going through my mind as I read 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.880 this is the Special Counsel's office, the and the people 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:49.440 who worked there seemed to struggle with whether or not 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.760 there was obstruction, and they decided to leave it to 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:56.640 perhaps the Congress to decide that. But if this were 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.600 a normal case and not a case where a president 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:04.480 of the its states is being investigated for obstruction and 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:08.440 cannot be indicted by Department of Justice guidelines, would this 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:10.800 be the kind of case you would take to a 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:14.920 jury and let the jury make this tough decision. Well, 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:17.200 there's certainly a lot of evidence out there that I 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:22.000 think a prosecutor could use to weave together an obstruction case. Uh. 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:25.119 One of the things that the president's defenders have often 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:28.640 said is that the president doesn't fully understand the way 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:32.160 a separation of powers works. And certainly this president has 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:35.799 cross lines that had never before been crossed in terms 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:38.479 of reaching into what's going on with the FBI and 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:41.800 with the Department of Justice. UM, I think this case 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.359 could have been brought to a jury. And here I 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:46.840 thought the most interesting statement that I've seen so far 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:49.880 on this report on the obstruction of justice issue is 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.760 that the Special Council wrote that with respect to whether 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:55.400 the President can be found to have obstructed justice by 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:58.479 exercising his powers under Article two of the Constitution, we 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:01.839 concluded the Congress has the authority to prohibit a president's 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:04.159 corrupt use of his authority in order to protect the 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:07.160 integrity of the administration of Justice. So it answers the 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:11.600 question when Mueller decided not to reach a conclusion here, 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:15.040 who makes that call? The Attorney General seemed to suggest 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:17.760 that the call was then his to make as the 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:20.440 as the head of the Department of Justice, whereas Mueller 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:22.680 seems to be safe it seems to be saying that 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:25.440 that really is going to be Congress's decision. So there's 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.559 a disconnect there between the way Mr Muller Mr Barr 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:32.400 interpreted UM the decision by Mr Mueller not to reach 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.479 a conclusion, and what Mr Mueller decided to say in 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:37.760 his report that it really is a question for Congress 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:40.440 to decide rather than the Attorney general. Let's also talk 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:44.600 about Mueller's explanation of why he chose not to subpoena 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:47.480 President Trump. He said he had enough evidence to, you know, 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.719 to subpoena him, but also he had enough evidence that 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.880 he didn't need to subpoena him. And it seemed to 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:56.200 be based on the fact that it would take too 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:58.920 long and he wanted to get this report out. But 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:03.039 does that leave a lot to question if you don't 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:08.560 have the testimony of the president, Yeah, it does. I 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:10.919 think he understood that that was going to be a long, 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:15.280 protracted fight, and ultimately there wasn't going to be much 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.320 to be gained by getting that interview if the courts 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.440 were going to were to force the President to submit 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.360 to an interview by the special counsel. I think they 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:27.640 also felt that, based upon all the public statements that 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:29.920 the President has made about this, that they more or 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:32.520 less knew what his answers were going to be. Uh 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:34.400 And so at the end, it was really kind of 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.200 a cost benefit analysis. They decided that the time that 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:39.279 it would take in order to try to force that 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.000 interview was really not worth it. They had enough answers 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:44.400 and really as they said a minute ago, the president 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:46.320 really has got on a record when so many of 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:49.760 these issues that have been identified by Special counsel mother 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:53.760 as potential areas of obstruction. Thank you so much, Bob. 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:57.360 That's former federal prosecutor Robert Man's a partner at McCarter 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:00.719 and English. Lisa June Grazzo of Bloomberg Politics, Policy, Power 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:03.280 in Law, thank you so much for that. We are 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:07.200 continuing our coverage of the four forty eight page report 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:22.640 from Special Prosecutor Robert Mueller. We're gonna take a look 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:26.240 at Honeywell. Honeywell shares climbed the most in eight months 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.560 after reporting that sales had surged, spurring the company to 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:33.440 raise its full year guidance despite a global manufacturing slowdown. 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:35.920 That was kind of breakdown what we saw from Honeywell 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:38.760 this quarter. We welcome back Karen uble Heart. Karen is 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:42.880 a senior Industrials annalyso Bloomberg Intelligence. She joins us live 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.800 here in a Bloomberg Interactive broker studio. So a pretty 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:48.280 darn good quarter. I saw that the organic growth rate 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.280 for Honeywell was eight percent. I can't remember the last 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:52.720 time we saw that type of growth from one of 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:55.640 your industrial companies. Yeah, no, that it was. It was 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.640 a much better than expected and it was in three 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.320 of the four businesses grew eight and and percent real surprise. 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.480 The biggest surprise was building products, where they got rid 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:07.200 of the home um automation business because they didn't want 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:10.400 to compete with Amazon, etcetera. Um. The buildings products business 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.080 is growing at nine percent, largely due to new product launches. 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:17.600 His top priority is growing organic growth, and I think 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:19.880 we're actually starting to see some of that happening. So 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.240 here's my question. How much is this a Honeywell I 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:24.840 used some credic story, and how much does this indicate 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.760 that we are seeing a stronger pace of growth around 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:29.800 the world. I think a lot of its Honeywell. I mean, 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.920 aerospace is very strong. It was eight percent against a 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.439 ten percent comp but aerospace is is strong for everyone. 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:41.200 But the building to business and the safety products business 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:44.480 are both Honeywell driven. They did an big acquisition in 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.040 the safety business, They've done a lot of new products 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:49.240 in both, and they're both growing eight to nine percent. 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:52.840 So that's Honeywell. So how how exposed is Honeywell to 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:56.959 kind of what's happening in China? Trade negotiations in terms 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.439 of their global businesses, well, they said ton of was down, 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.440 um a little bit actually, And and what's interesting about 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:05.560 their guidances they didn't raise the second half and a 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:07.480 lot of people press them on that because growth is 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:09.760 so good. But there they are worried. They're hedging their 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:11.480 bets for a glow you know, a little bit slower 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:14.320 global growth. So when you take Honeywell out of it, 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.599 they think, like the core economic growth is going to 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:19.320 be slower in the second half globally, and they're hedging 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:20.920 their bets. Can you give us a sense of the 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:24.840 breakdown of the geographic distribution of Honeywell's business, Um, you know, 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.520 you know, China's um a decent size for them, but 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.679 it's still like seven percent. It's still pretty pretty low, 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.160 but it's a good grower. Um. The US is in 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.000 the forties and Europe is in the twenties, and you know, 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:38.280 so it's you it might be up to thirty, I think, 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:42.439 But I guess I'm wondering, is there a big divergence 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.680 between the US and the performance there versus the rest 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.520 of the world. Well, interestingly, Europe is not as bad 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.680 so far um that as people expected. Because those are 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:53.800 those numbers A P, M I and GDP numbers do 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:56.040 not look good. But you know it's hole, it's holding 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.360 up there getting you know, mid single low mid single 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.720 digit growth there you're us of course is the growth 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.280 engine right now, although there's concerns about the second half 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:08.320 and then ages growing. UM China is weak because of trade. 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:11.200 So but overall a lot of this is product driven. 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:13.600 I think you're interesting. I was looking through the report 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.199 and I see that the surging e commerce helped drive 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:20.320 a ten percent improvement in Honeywell's SPS warehouse automation. So 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:24.240 there's an Amazon play here for Honeywell, right, yeah. I 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.080 mean they did a large acquisition, one of their largest 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:30.960 ever in warehouse automation, a company called UM Intelligrated and 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:34.160 it's growing like fifteen percent against fifteen percent. You know, 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:38.240 it's it's it's growing extraordinarily well. And then they did 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:42.280 another UH automation where he automation business in Europe, so 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.040 they're growing that business and it is a it's it's 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:47.760 you know, double digit, nice solid double digit growth. Yes, 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:51.160 that is e commerce. It's the Amazon play there. Make 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.120 an Amazon play on anything, Lisa, anything. I'm going to 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:56.480 challenge you. I'm going to find something and see what 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:58.559 you can come up with. Uh, you know, I gotta say, 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:02.240 Karen yu Buhart, you say that this is an idiosyncredit issue, Honeywell, Uh, 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:05.280 their management actually doing a good job. Is there any 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:10.160 takeaway that another big industrial company could take away from 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.880 this to possibly spur their growth. Well, it's really interesting 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:17.120 because um, they're not. They didn't run out and buy things. 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:19.680 They have so much money and they're scared to do 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.600 M and A. But he really put the u you know, 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.440 the pedal to the metal on on internal spending, not 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:30.240 on capacity, on making new things. And that's and then 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.800 of course they've been doing the efficiency game and margin 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.480 improvement for a long time. I mean the you know 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.120 ten plus years of Dave Cody was about let's get 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:41.040 respectable margins. He did that, although there's room to go, 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.680 and now this guy's let's get growing. So I see 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:46.520 the stock up. Just put up the stock the five 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:49.000 year chart on the bloomber terminal and Honeywells, you know, 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:51.600 looks on a five year basis that it's high here. Uh, 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:55.040 you know, up another percent this year. Maybe did they 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:58.560 you start thinking about using their stock for acquisition currency. Uh, 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:00.920 you know they won't because they're sitting on their sitting 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:04.240 on ten eleven billion in cash and another seven billion 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:07.000 in debt capacity because their leverage is pretty low. So 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:09.640 I don't think they will. In fact, they're they're buying 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:11.840 backs a ton of stock because they don't know what 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:14.440 to do with all this money. So um, I don't 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:17.440 think they would use stuff. This is really interesting to 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.079 me that they spent their money on actually making stuff. 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.280 Are we starting to see companies get rewarded by shareholders 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.600 for deploying their cash into R and D. Well, it's 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.080 funny because three M always gets paid for being an 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.000 R and D and I t W I mean and 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.400 paid in terms of margins outstanding margins, and there is 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.520 a payback on that. I don't think people spend enough 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:42.400 time noticing that, um, just across the board, but they 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:44.839 will notice the organic growth going up and and uh 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.200 so I think they will. They are getting rewarded for that. 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:49.600 So coming. I mean, you think about your industrial coverage. 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:52.959 You cover these big diversified manufacturing companies. It's big agricultural 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.440 guys that making the deers this and so on and 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.360 so forth. Given that word, your ten of this cycle 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.000 where like what your day when they get orders, they 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:03.760 get big orders that people are buying submarines or they're 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:07.120 buying tractors, or they're buying you know, big stuff. Again, 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:09.559 ten years into the cycle, are we still seeing decent 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.280 demand globally for a lot of your industrial companies. Yeah, 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:15.360 you know, it's been a weird cycle because my cycles 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.160 are usually in industrials are usually boom bust, you know, 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:20.160 and we we didn't really have boom. I mean we 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.040 had in certain cyclical markets we did, you know. Um, 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.719 but it's been a long cycle. But it's been sort 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:29.000 of moderate um growth, you know, with some blips up 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.120 and down, but so's it's usually a ramp up and 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.160 a rampdown and so um, it's been long, but it's 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:37.520 more like a slow and steady rather than a real 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:39.719 rod bust. So I think there is going to be 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.120 slower growth, um, you know. And I think we're talking 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:44.920 low single digits. We're you know, we're not talking high 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:47.760 high um single digits as we have been looking in 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.320 overall growth for these companies. But I still think we're 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:54.400 gonna see growth. Just lastly, here, I'm wondering who is 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:57.199 Honeywell beating out in terms of competition. In other words, 0:13:57.400 --> 0:13:59.440 who are they taking share away from? If this is 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:02.400 not a story, worry just about generally strong economic growth 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:08.240 globally building products would be like a Johnson controls UM 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:12.040 you know, uh, you know Emerson to some degree. And 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.240 then in SPS it's a lot of technology companies. Um, 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:17.280 Dana hars a small business a compete in, but it's 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:21.400 a lot of smaller technology companies actually. Karen ubal Heart, 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:23.440 thank you so much for joining us on Honey Welso 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:26.600 good numbers, stock trading up. Karen Uberhart, senior analyst at 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:30.440 Bloomberg Intelligence, covering all things industrial, all things Middle America. 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:45.240 She joins us on Bloomberg eleven three oh Studios. Let's 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:48.600 bring in Jacob Frankel, who is a former federal prosecutor 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:51.800 with an independent Council who is familiar with writing such 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.440 reports that are delivered to Congress. He is now a 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.160 partner at Dickinson. Right, Jacob, thank you so much for 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:00.680 being with us. I want to start at first with 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:04.360 the Attorney General's press conference. What did you glean from 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.520 the tone of that and sort of the nature of 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.640 how this investigation is being spun from a partisan level 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:14.160 on both sides. I actually tried to separate out the 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:20.200 partisan component of the press conference and focus on what 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:23.080 was the substance to what he was saying about the 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:27.200 process of the investigation. And I was actually somewhat refreshed 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:33.040 by his decision to focus on process, because the biggest 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:36.240 concern in what was going to be coming out of 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:39.920 this report, what would the redactions look like, was really 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:44.200 a focus on who ultimately was making the decisions, not 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.640 only in terms of the report itself, but what would 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:51.360 be reported and how it would be reported. And I know, 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:53.880 you know, to your point about my having been part 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:56.680 of an independent council, you know, they're always was a 0:15:56.680 --> 0:16:00.280 lot of deference, you know, to the career prosecutors. I 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:06.400 found refreshing Attorney General Bars reference to that, specifically that 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.360 it was the career prosecutors in the Department of Justice, 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:14.320 and that he and Rod Rosenstein disagreed with some of 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:19.680 the premises that were that were established by by Special 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:23.640 Counsel Muller and his team, but nevertheless deferred to them. 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:27.560 So I found very helpful, you know, that reference to 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.640 the level of deference, and when I, as with all 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:32.640 of us were just beginning to look at the report. 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.720 When I look at the report, you know, we're really 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.000 talking about a robust narrative. Because the other point that 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:42.120 I was looking for was is this going to be 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.440 a spin news conference as it has been, you know, 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.440 as was sort of projected, or was this going to 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:52.640 be sort of laying the groundwork for a report. Because again, 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:55.120 what I was waiting for, which is why I have 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:57.920 sort of yet to have been exercised by a lot 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.560 of findings, is a lot of the you know, expert 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:05.399 commentators have spent the last two years speculating as to 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.080 what would be the evidence. Up until now, the only 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:10.640 evidence that I've been able to discern is what has 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:14.320 come out with what has actually been published in the indictments. 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:17.119 So now that we got a report that more robustly 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:20.480 talks about the findings, to me, this is really the 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:24.720 first opportunity to see what the evidence actually has revealed. 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.680 So Jacob special counsel Mueller h and the report suggests 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.639 that Congress could take action on at least ten instances 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:35.879 where the President sought to interfere with the probe. What 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:37.560 do you think Congress will do? How aggressive do you 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.120 think they'll be that's a great question, And I think 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.440 what you're I think what we're really talking about there 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:46.399 is deference to the language of what is the standard 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:50.280 for impeachment high crimes and misdemeanors. And of course, as 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.639 we know from you know, from two years of discussion 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:56.600 in this and and and a lot of the narrative, 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:00.119 the term of what he is a misdemeanor really is 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.280 somewhat unclear. And I and I interpret that to be 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:08.399 a you know, a reference to Congress being able to 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:13.919 make a determination independently that even without an affirmative finding 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:18.320 of conduct that would rise the level of criminality. That 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:21.879 is that they're being specific intent, which to me is 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:24.760 the type of issue that would actually be the determinant 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.000 if I were trying to decide whether this what or 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:30.560 would not be presented to a uh, you know, in 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:34.000 in trial indicted and to a jury. On the other hand, 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:38.000 Congress has the authority to a to apply a lesser 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:42.960 standard in determining what constitutes a misdemeanor. So what I 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:45.479 read that to mean that if Congress really wants to 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:50.880 do so, it has the authority to begin impeachment proceedings 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:54.840 based on the evidence is actually narrated in the report. 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.840 Whether it chooses to do so, that is a political decision. 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:01.840 That's a any big statements saying that basically they do 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:05.320 have enough to start impeachment, even if it isn't necessarily 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:09.840 a criminal act that could be prosecuted otherwise. One thing 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.960 that I'm curious about from your perspective going forward, are 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:16.800 we gleaning any information about the nature of what the 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:21.520 Muller investigation referred out to other prosecutorial offices. I think 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.960 this other district or the Eastern Eastern District. I think 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.880 I'm not far enough into the report to make that determination, 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:30.360 but I certainly think by the nature of the redactions 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:35.040 and the UH and the efforts by Attorney General bar 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:39.199 to protect UM, the you know, the referrals and the 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:43.440 and the content of referral related information UM, I think 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:47.879 we may be able to discern some of what really 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:51.360 is the basis for the you know, for the referrals UM. 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:54.400 But in terms of beyond what has already been referred, 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:56.720 I don't know that we can. But I also think 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.120 that we have to be mindful that you know, we're taught. 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.240 Unlike the Dependent Council Statute under which I lived here. 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:07.040 Everything has been conducted within the framework of the of 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:10.080 the Department of Justice. So as we know from just 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:12.760 our conversations over the years, in the context of white 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:17.560 collar cases, one case will spawn another. So as you know, 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:21.800 as grand juries, as prosecutors, as the FBI continue to 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:25.960 look at evidence and gather information and possibly additional cooperation, 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:32.080 we can still see the spawning of further related cases. So, Jacob, 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:36.080 from your perspective, your experience, are you surprised or disappointed 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:40.560 or dismayed that Mr Muller did not choose to appine 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:47.119 on the obstruction issues, I'm actually not well, you know, 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:52.440 I'm I'm not surprised given that he has actually laid 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:56.320 out the evidence and has stated that based on the 0:20:56.359 --> 0:21:01.960 evidence that was presented, it was sufficiently ambiguous at least 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:06.680 with respect to intent, to enable him to reach a conclusion, 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:12.440 because that is the exact type of deliberation that that 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:18.000 career prosecutors and even non career prosecutors are supposed to 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:23.440 engage in in making in making an ultimate charging decision. 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:27.520 So I think by laying out the evidence and not 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:32.240 expressing an opinion so as not to color or otherwise 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:38.320 influence the decision, that ultimately could be made by a 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:42.080 charging body, which in this case would be a deference 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.800 to Congress to undertake that role if it were to 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:50.200 choose to do so. I think he really did strike 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:55.560 the appropriate balance based on the evidence that he had developed. Jacob, 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.200 thank you so much. Jacob Frankel is a formal federal 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.840 prosecutor with an independent council now a partner at Dinckinson. Right, 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:15.680 we're monitoring markets in one very active area has been 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:19.679 the marijuana stocks. Pot stocks surging today after Cannopy Growth 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:23.640 agreed to buy acreage holdings for three point four billion dollars. 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:27.359 This is a massive cross border cannabis deal that is 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:31.440 conditional on the US eventually legalizing pot for recreational use. 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:34.000 Joining us now to talk about this is Christine Oram. 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:37.000 She's a Canadian cannabis and equity reporter for US here 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:40.480 at Bloomberg in Toronto. So Christine, can you just give 0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:44.000