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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of My Heart Grading. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel, and they

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Speaker 1: called me Ben. We are joined with our guest producer

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Speaker 1: j J. Causeway Pause, Way, j J Press pause pause Way,

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Speaker 1: j J b d pause Way. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know. As you are listening, folks,

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Speaker 1: would like to welcome you to three. We are recording

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Speaker 1: one of the last things will do in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 1: and we thought what better way to end the year

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Speaker 1: for us, and what better way to start the year

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Speaker 1: with you then to go to an unsolved mystery, a

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Speaker 1: very deep one that gets very murky very quickly. As

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact, I would say, um, today's episode

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Speaker 1: is a study in extremes, the extremes of financial wealth,

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Speaker 1: the very high reaches of it, in the extremes of

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Speaker 1: brutal crime. On December, as far as people can tell,

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Speaker 1: as far as forensics assures us, a tragedy struck. The

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Speaker 1: Sherman family, a couple living out in Canada. Here are

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Speaker 1: the facts. It's a good life. It's good to be king,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Oh yeah, well they're they're

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Speaker 1: definitely lords, right at least Um very certainly was a

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Speaker 1: lord of drugs, a drug lord. He wasn't literally a

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Speaker 1: drug lord, yes, okay, but man the dance involved. But

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Speaker 1: uh yeah that's what you're thinking. Uh. Not not a

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Speaker 1: drug lord in the sense of one of these movies

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Speaker 1: or TV shows you might watch. He was the owner

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Speaker 1: of a company that produced generic drugs, so generic versions

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Speaker 1: of all those big name drugs you see the all

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Speaker 1: the commercials for um. And he was living with his wife, Honey,

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Speaker 1: who was a philanthropist of great note. Uh, they were

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Speaker 1: just living the dream man. Yeah. And and the idea

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Speaker 1: about lord of lord of a dance I when you

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Speaker 1: get to this, because he wasn't just a pharmaceutical drug

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Speaker 1: lord for having fun with the term. But he definitely

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Speaker 1: knew how to make money dance. Uh. He was as

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Speaker 1: involved with finance, non related to the pharmaceutical industry as

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Speaker 1: he was with drugs. Uh. He's an engineer, as a

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Speaker 1: keen mind for business at the height of his fortune.

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Speaker 1: He personally had an s estimated well, it's tough when

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Speaker 1: you talk about billionaires. He had an estimated three point

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Speaker 1: two billion dollars in personal net worth in seventeen in Canada.

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Speaker 1: That made him somewhere between the twelfth to fifteen richest

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Speaker 1: individual in the country. Really makes you wonder about those

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Speaker 1: other eleven, Right, do they have meetings, did they get together?

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Speaker 1: What are the schedules? Like, we'll never know, um, but

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Speaker 1: maybe let's learn a little bit about his background just

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Speaker 1: so you can get a sense of this person. If

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Speaker 1: you are uh, if you live in Canada or have

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Speaker 1: spent time in Canada, you almost certainly know the name

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Speaker 1: Barry Sherman, but you definitely know the name of his company. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he started a career in pharmaceuticals when his uncle Louis

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Speaker 1: Lloyd Winter's estate UH let him take over Empire Laboratories,

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Speaker 1: which is the company that his uncle ran, and in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four Barry would form his own pharmaceutical company

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Speaker 1: called uh Apo te Po Tex Yeah, indeed incorporated. Um.

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Speaker 1: He led this company to greatness, at least you know

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Speaker 1: drug greatness. He led them to become the biggest manufacturer

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Speaker 1: of generic drugs and all of Canada. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: a big deal. Um. The company alone employees thousands of

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Speaker 1: folks and they sell drugs in a hundred and fifteen countries.

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Speaker 1: So well, we can't exactly say that he you know,

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Speaker 1: started from what first base, you know, square one, from nothing. Uh,

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Speaker 1: he definitely did, you know, do what we have often seen,

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Speaker 1: you know, folks like even though what's his name, Ben?

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Speaker 1: We talked about him on Raculous History recently, Donald Trump, Well, Donald,

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Speaker 1: I think I think he's not this example. It's uh

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Speaker 1: Getty who you know, the younger son of the original

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Speaker 1: you know, Getty fortune holder. He did take his father

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Speaker 1: was very stingy. He did take some seed money and

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Speaker 1: then turn it into something of of use. So this

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Speaker 1: guy's sort of again he had a little bit of help,

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Speaker 1: a little bit of push, but he, you know, definitely

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Speaker 1: was a smart fellow, um who made the most of

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Speaker 1: this opportunity that he was given. Oh yeah, and there's

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Speaker 1: there's an interesting note here too, because uh, I love

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Speaker 1: that you're pointing this out. So he gets he gets

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Speaker 1: his original spot as a tycoon in this industry due

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Speaker 1: to his uncle, his uncle's passing. His uncle had four kids,

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Speaker 1: and they did not get uh, the ability to run

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Speaker 1: Empire Laboratories. They got a or according to them, they

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Speaker 1: each were promised a five percent stake in the business.

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Speaker 1: And they were very angry with Barry Sherman. Right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're laying some groundwork. They were very angry when he

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Speaker 1: shut them down in court because he was selling Empire Laboratories,

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Speaker 1: which also further propelled him towards the capitol and position

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Speaker 1: he needed to create Apotex or Apotex. And it's weird

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Speaker 1: to think about, like cutting off the family tree in

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Speaker 1: kind of a not great way, berry, little pruning, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean. Uh, maybe why you don't do

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Speaker 1: business with family. But family discord aside. He had. It

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Speaker 1: was a long time marriage with Honey, which you mentioned earlier.

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Speaker 1: Matt his spouse, Honey Sherman. They married in nine one

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Speaker 1: and they had four children of their own, three girls,

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Speaker 1: one boy, and Honey was Honey was known in many

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Speaker 1: different ways by many different people. You can find accounts

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Speaker 1: of folks who live in the area who say that

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Speaker 1: she was very rude at the coffee shop or very privileged.

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Speaker 1: But that's what you know. Waking up with a billion

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Speaker 1: dollars will do to people sometimes and uh, then you'll

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Speaker 1: see other people saying that she did tremendous good As

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Speaker 1: a philanthropist. She was very active in especially in charities

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Speaker 1: associated with the Jewish community in Canada and abroad. So

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Speaker 1: they were trying to put their money towards some charitable actions.

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Speaker 1: This is not to say that they had no enemies.

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Speaker 1: The people who knew the Shermans were not unanimously members

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Speaker 1: of a Sherman fan club. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: Barry was known for being a bit of a bulldog. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: as you said, he he knew the drug game, the

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Speaker 1: manufacturer of them, but mostly the sale of them. He

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Speaker 1: also knew how to put his money to work for him, right,

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Speaker 1: so any profits that he brought in he could make

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Speaker 1: those singing dance. But he also really seemed to enjoy

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Speaker 1: taking people to court when he needed to or when

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Speaker 1: he felt like there was to gain. Litigious, was he yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh very much so um And some of it's weird

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Speaker 1: because he was actually in his day, he was the

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Speaker 1: most litigious individual in all of Canada. It's another extreme

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Speaker 1: of this larger than life figure. And about so an

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Speaker 1: estimate might have been from the author Kevin Donovan. But

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Speaker 1: I saw an estimate that said maybe around half of

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Speaker 1: his courtroom battles were just out of necessity being a

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Speaker 1: generic drug manufacturer. But then another half were just that

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Speaker 1: he was. He was a real hot and cold guy.

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Speaker 1: If he loved you, he loved you, and he's a

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Speaker 1: big fan, and he would support you even when his

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Speaker 1: friends told him not to. And if he thought you

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Speaker 1: would wronged him, he would do evil things, very petty

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Speaker 1: things like he wins that lawsuit against his four cousins

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Speaker 1: right after he sells their father's company. And then he

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Speaker 1: when he wins the lawsuits not enough. This is true story.

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Speaker 1: He goes back to the court and he says, Uh,

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Speaker 1: these four people have to pay me a million dollars

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Speaker 1: for my troubles. The court later kicks it down to

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Speaker 1: uh three dollars, but he's already financially ruined them. He

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Speaker 1: just wanted to twist the knife. Uh. That's the environment

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Speaker 1: we're moving in, and that's his family. Um, so you know,

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Speaker 1: naturally you're you're this high, you're at this threshold in

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Speaker 1: the upper echelons of business. There's a lot of ruthlessness

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Speaker 1: involved in getting there, and maintaining that king of the

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Speaker 1: hill position. So naturally this guy is gonna have rivals.

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Speaker 1: Of course, naturally they're gonna be people who maybe got

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Speaker 1: burned in a lawsuit or uh, feel like he did

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Speaker 1: them dirty in a business deal, and they don't think

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Speaker 1: of him as their best friend. You know. Uh, they're

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Speaker 1: not in his MySpace top eight if my space is

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Speaker 1: still around. Um. But you'll hear a lot of people say,

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Speaker 1: that's just that's his business, that's just the breaks, that's

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Speaker 1: how the sausage gets made. That's how you succeed in

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Speaker 1: a profit motivated ecosystem, until that is, something goes wrong.

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Speaker 1: In December, horror struck one of the most powerful families

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Speaker 1: in Canada. Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, and now,

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Speaker 1: even five years later, their deaths remain unsolved, leading more

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Speaker 1: than a few people to speculate there may be a

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Speaker 1: conspiracy of foot Here's where it gets crazy. The Shermans

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Speaker 1: were last seen alive on the thirteenth September at the

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Speaker 1: headquarters of apitex Um, where they were taking the look

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Speaker 1: giving the once over and the approval for some design

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Speaker 1: changes to a new house that they were building. Miss

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Speaker 1: Sherman was getting ready to take a trip to Miami

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Speaker 1: a few days later, and Mr Sherman is going to

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Speaker 1: join her a week later. And the Shermans, we just

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Speaker 1: we should just note here they had built a house earlier,

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Speaker 1: so they're building this new house, right, but they had

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Speaker 1: earlier built a house in the nineteen eighties, and this

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Speaker 1: house they were preparing for sale. So if anyone who's

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Speaker 1: gone through that process, you know that they were basically

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Speaker 1: having to go to the old house pretty frequently make

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Speaker 1: repairs or at least overseas repairs and things that were

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Speaker 1: being done to that house. And that happens to be

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Speaker 1: where they head at some point um on either December. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and there's you'll see some conflicting reporting about this, uh

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Speaker 1: this kind of forty eight to seventy two hour period

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Speaker 1: between December and December. But here here's what we know

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Speaker 1: from the official records. All right, Like, like Noel said, December,

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Speaker 1: last time anybody publicly admits to seeing them, Like they're

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Speaker 1: careful phrasing there on the Just a few days later,

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Speaker 1: a pair of Real It's Tours is giving a tour

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Speaker 1: of this mansion in Toronto, and it's around midday uh.

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Speaker 1: And as they get to the bottom of the house,

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Speaker 1: they're doing the walkthrough. You know, you're buying a mansion,

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Speaker 1: it's a significant investment. You want to look at the

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Speaker 1: knooks and crannies. So they get toward the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the house, to the basement, and then they find the

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Speaker 1: bodies Barry and Honey Sherman, fully dressed, and they're positioned,

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Speaker 1: we should say, beside their indoor basement swimming pool, semi seated,

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Speaker 1: side by side, belts tied around their necks, attached to

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Speaker 1: the railing of the indoor pool. Yeah, and um, at

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Speaker 1: least I think it was. In Barry's case, he was

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Speaker 1: kind of leaned back because that belt was keeping him

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Speaker 1: up right. Um, really messed up, really really messed up.

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Speaker 1: But it definitely seems as though they were posed right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's one of the that's where this starts to

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Speaker 1: get a little bit true Detective season one, To be

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Speaker 1: honest with you, So, at the times of their deaths,

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Speaker 1: Barry is seventy Honey is seventy years old. She has

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Speaker 1: a bruise on her face. Both bodies have been restrained

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Speaker 1: with coats pulled over their arms. Later autopsies would confirm

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Speaker 1: they died due to strangulation. Although that seems pretty clear

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Speaker 1: at the scene, you gotta let forensics do their work

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Speaker 1: right and and look for all the details that indicate,

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Speaker 1: you know, whether or not something was a suicide. Shout

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Speaker 1: out to Epstein's hyoid bone. Seriously, right, always the little

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Speaker 1: tell tale signs. Um, and we've got something along those

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Speaker 1: lines here from the author of The Billionaire Murders, a

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Speaker 1: guy named Kevin Donovan. The body seemed to have been

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Speaker 1: purposefully arranged. Um. This is again, this is like true

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Speaker 1: detective kind of you know, serial killer, elaborate kind of

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Speaker 1: behavior kind of stuff. The body seemed to have been

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Speaker 1: purposefully arranged in an imitation of two life size sculptures

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Speaker 1: that existed in the couple's home, not far at all

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Speaker 1: from where they were fed. Right, Yeah, you can look

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Speaker 1: at a photograph of this sculpture. We want to note

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Speaker 1: that poor Leo Suel is not a suspect. There are

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Speaker 1: a lot of suspects here, just to be honest with you,

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Speaker 1: but Leo is not what He's just a guy making

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Speaker 1: a living through his art, which is an awesome thing

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Speaker 1: to be able to do. Then probably never imagined that

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Speaker 1: he would be involved with something like this, even tangentially

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Speaker 1: it's it's kind of like a found object art sort

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Speaker 1: of like outsider art kind of vibes and to his

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Speaker 1: junk sculpture, and this dude was active in the seventies. Um,

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Speaker 1: And I mean they're they're cool pieces, if not creepy

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Speaker 1: unto themselves, I have to say at all, they look yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean when you look at it with all the

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Speaker 1: whatever pipes and little pieces, it kind of looks like

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Speaker 1: skinned humans, but like in a weird junkyard kind of

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Speaker 1: way it is. And they're sitting on top of speakers,

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Speaker 1: like fight speakers first of all, as an audio file,

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Speaker 1: that is not a good place for that's gonna cause

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Speaker 1: some serious vibrations and not going to get the best quality,

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Speaker 1: okay out of your speakers when you've got these metal,

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Speaker 1: you know, monstrosity sitting on top of that's guys. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: to make money by spending a bunch of money on

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Speaker 1: a frivolous things. I say as I as I drink

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Speaker 1: dirt coffee out of like uh a spaghetti jar from

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Speaker 1: probably two thousand and nine. Uh, I know what you mean,

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Speaker 1: Like it is disquietly because they are Yeah, they were

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Speaker 1: not popular with the kids. These are life size figures.

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Speaker 1: Uh something gives it a crash test. Dummies vibe to

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Speaker 1: me almost and and you can see how you know,

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Speaker 1: if you grow up anybody who's grown up with life

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Speaker 1: size sculptures or mannekins or stuff like that, you realize

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Speaker 1: how that can creep you out as a kid. And

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Speaker 1: they had apparently in the past, all four of the

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Speaker 1: kids had asked their parents, please put these just somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: If you can't throw them away, just put them somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: But the mother, Honey, liked them so much, she really

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Speaker 1: enjoyed them, so she said, no, it's our house, they're

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Speaker 1: staying here. When she actually borrowed them or or asked

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Speaker 1: to have them from a friend who had them displayed.

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Speaker 1: After Oh man, I'm sorry, but I can't remember the

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Speaker 1: exact thing from the research, but they some um place

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Speaker 1: that had them displayed closed down, and they were they

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Speaker 1: were taken by a couple and then Honey was like,

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Speaker 1: I really like those. I want to put them in

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Speaker 1: my basement. And that's what happened. Yeah. Yeah, Because she's

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Speaker 1: so big in the world of the arts and charity

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Speaker 1: and philanthropy that organizations want to please her, as do people,

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Speaker 1: so it's kind of a social coup for them to

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Speaker 1: be able to say, I give this gift to you. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: we're harping on these statues because the bodies when they

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Speaker 1: are found, even even if you had never seen the

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Speaker 1: statue before, the bodies when they're found are in a

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Speaker 1: very similar position to life size statues, to corpses, as

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Speaker 1: as though arranged as though in homage to the statue. Right,

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Speaker 1: and when Kevin Donovan, who was probably the world's foremost

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Speaker 1: expert on this case now when he is looking into

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Speaker 1: the origin of the sculpture, he's the guy who uh

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Speaker 1: finds the artist Leo. He said that everything he looked

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Speaker 1: into about this from when he was first writing about

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Speaker 1: it at the Toronto Star too when he came out

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Speaker 1: with his book, he just couldn't figure out why they

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Speaker 1: were staged. Pretty confident is that they were staged that

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Speaker 1: way on purpose. But he said, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: it means, but quote, I can't see how it doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean something what I mean just like again, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: stop with the True Detective references after this, but just

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Speaker 1: like a rust coal right in the very first episode

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Speaker 1: of True Detective Season one. Uh, no spoilers, but what

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Speaker 1: a show. Uh, this is unfortunately real life. So we're

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Speaker 1: we're setting up some of this stuff about the statute.

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Speaker 1: That's one of many unanswered questions here. Uh. And if

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Speaker 1: you want to go to the answers, right then, naturally

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Speaker 1: where do you start. You start with the people who

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Speaker 1: knew the Shermans and the authorities who are put on

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Speaker 1: the case. So we're gonna pause for a word from

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Speaker 1: our sponsors, and then let's let's go right to Toronto

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Speaker 1: p D. Let's see what they have to say. All right,

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Speaker 1: let's jump back in here, and we're still in December fourteen,

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Speaker 1: December fifteen, two thousand seven, team, and we're we're looking

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Speaker 1: at statements from the Toronto Police, and you know, it's

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Speaker 1: really just questions about did any associates of the Sherman's

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Speaker 1: hear from them within that window? Did anyone, you know,

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Speaker 1: have any idea what their plans were in that immediate term?

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Speaker 1: Were they heading back to that house for a specific reason? Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, just any information? And according to the Toronto Police,

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Speaker 1: there was nothing to go on here. There were no leads.

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Speaker 1: According to anybody who knew them, they hadn't seen them

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Speaker 1: for at least two days or around two days. And

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Speaker 1: when they start looking at the crime scene, you know,

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Speaker 1: with the strange staging of the victims, with those weird statues,

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Speaker 1: you look, you look for signs of entry. Did somebody

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Speaker 1: bust in through a window to gain access to them

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Speaker 1: and kill them? Well, it's a little weird because there

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Speaker 1: are no signs of forced entry, right, any kind of

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Speaker 1: like brute force trauma to any door do or anything

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Speaker 1: like that. But there were there was some weirdness. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like I believe it was. One of the doors was unlocked,

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Speaker 1: which is something their household staff. Yes, folks, they had

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Speaker 1: a staff. Their household staff knew, right, they had a

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Speaker 1: door that it was typically unlocked for convenience. Uh. There

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Speaker 1: was also an open window, but no no signs that

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Speaker 1: either had been forced. Clearly not a kick door operation.

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Speaker 1: Someone either was let into the home or someone knew

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Speaker 1: where which methods of entry would be feasible and would

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Speaker 1: leave the would have the sorry lowest likelihood of leaving

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Speaker 1: a trace. I got two things here, guys. According to

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Speaker 1: the reporting, this is something that Sherman's would do often,

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Speaker 1: Like you said, ask the staff to leave a couple

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Speaker 1: of entries open on purpose, or they would do it

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Speaker 1: on purpose just to leave stuff unlocked. Yeah, that baffles me.

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Speaker 1: Is it like some kind of like kinky game or something.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I don't need to be I think it's

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Speaker 1: just a very foreign idea to the three of us

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Speaker 1: in particular, that you would ever just leave your house

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Speaker 1: a lock to instruct them to do it. It's almost

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Speaker 1: like they're rolling the dice a little bit, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean. I don't know. Well, I mean, if

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Speaker 1: you're just going to kind of forget to do it

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Speaker 1: or not worry about it too much, but we shouldn't

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Speaker 1: the standard protocol just always be just locked the door

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Speaker 1: when you're done, like if you're leaving, you know, And

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Speaker 1: maybe this was See this is something that we don't

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Speaker 1: have fully answered, Like was this a habit that had

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Speaker 1: gone on for years right there? This will be an

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Speaker 1: important question. Or was this something that had happened relatively

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Speaker 1: recently as they were transitioning to their new abode, or

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Speaker 1: did it have something to do with someone who would

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Speaker 1: toward the house recently as a potential buyer, which I okay,

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Speaker 1: a little inside job right there. We go, We're we're

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Speaker 1: assigning some sophistication. Now, uh, and this actually, as we'll see,

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Speaker 1: this is not your ordinary crime of opportunity by any means.

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Speaker 1: So the other thing, they had recently installed a lock

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Speaker 1: box that the staff was using to come and go.

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Speaker 1: So it is reasonable for us to assume that they

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Speaker 1: had some of their people maybe coming in and moving

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Speaker 1: possessions or checking on stuff or you know. Um and

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Speaker 1: and again to show the house, to show the house

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Speaker 1: key and people. Yeah, and so something weird happens in Toronto. Um,

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Speaker 1: the police, not the band, the Toronto p D. Initially

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Speaker 1: the police were called in, but their schedule was just

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Speaker 1: too massive, and you know, they're mainly musicians nowadays. But

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Speaker 1: Toronto p D was called in as a replacement. And

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Speaker 1: they initially called this a murder suicide, the idea being, uh,

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Speaker 1: in their initial statements that Barry Sherman strangled, asphyxiated his

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Speaker 1: wife many years and then did the same to himself.

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Speaker 1: The public was not buying this. I mean, the belt,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's typically a hallmark of suicide, you know,

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Speaker 1: but it also seemed to serve the purpose of kind

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Speaker 1: of posing them as well in the situation. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: part of it. Like the if that narrative was true

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Speaker 1: and they just coincidentally ended up in positions very much

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Speaker 1: like those statues. It's one of those things where you

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Speaker 1: would almost have to prove it was a coincidence. Now,

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Speaker 1: how chilling though, if it were that and it were

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Speaker 1: Barry that did the posing, and then he would have

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Speaker 1: to like pose that post himself that way and then

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Speaker 1: do the thing. But also, you know, you kind of

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Speaker 1: spas them, and things happen as you die. It'd be

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Speaker 1: hard to maintain that pose postmortem without some kind of

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Speaker 1: fixing it up. No matter how good or evil, how

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00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: how how socially great or unremarkable, a person is pretty

377
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 1: much all go the same way unless they're vaporized instantly,

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Speaker 1: you know, they shoved a little. It's the great equalizer.

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Speaker 1: Every party means no, but I mean, we're we're trying

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Speaker 1: not to make this incredibly um dark, I guess, but

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Speaker 1: it is. It is. It is a dark subject, and

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Speaker 1: I think we're raising valid points. Right, there's just not

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Speaker 1: enough information, But there's a lot of stuff that sticks out,

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Speaker 1: like the cell phone, right yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about the murder suicide initial thing. Then they

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Speaker 1: the police kind of switch gears pretty soon after that

387
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Speaker 1: because there is additional evidence that they find at the scene,

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Speaker 1: and one of those things is honey cell phone that

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00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 1: you're talking about, that was found owned in a powder

390
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: room that according to associates and friends who knew her,

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Speaker 1: she never used that thing. That wasn't like the place

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Speaker 1: where she goes and her cell phones in there, and

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00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: they believe, at least the one of the working theories

394
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 1: is that she fled something or someone and made it

395
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: to that powder room as possibly an attempt to dial

396
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: authorities or you know, dial for help basically with her phone.

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Speaker 1: Um do we are we gonna talk about this? The

398
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 1: other weird thing is a stack of papers that I

399
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: guess Barry had and his gloves m M yeah, yeah,

400
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 1: lay it on us. Well, those were found very near

401
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: the entrance, the side door entrance to the home where

402
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: both Honey and Barry would always just kind of go

403
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Speaker 1: into the house. So it seems as though perhaps he

404
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: walked into the home and was either immediately confronted by

405
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: someone or heard something that made him run, like put

406
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 1: that stuff down and take off right. Because he's not

407
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: like most people. He's not the kind of guy who

408
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 1: gets to the door to his house and says, oh,

409
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: let me just drop all my stuff outside. You know

410
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 1: what I mean? Uh, I can't. I can't walk into

411
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Speaker 1: my house with my gloves. What am I a farmer?

412
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 1: You know? He's not that kind of dude. But yeah,

413
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: they they do take a while to revise their findings

414
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 1: based on this evidence, and they come back and they

415
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: have these serious of press statements and they say, and

416
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Speaker 1: they're talking to Toronto Star as well, and they say,

417
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: we are now treating this case not as a murder suicide,

418
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 1: but as a double homicide. And um, some of this

419
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: is informed by professionals who look at the scene. Right.

420
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: We'll get to them in a second. But the Sherman

421
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: family is a financial powerhouse, right. They have a lot

422
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: of differences. Money can come between people. But they go

423
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 1: past the police. They go and hire their own kind

424
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: of private investigation team, and they release his statement just

425
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: before the police press conference, where they say, we anticipate

426
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: the police will reach the same conclusion as our p

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00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: I s, which is that this is a homicide, that

428
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 1: our parents were murdered, and uh, things just get stranger.

429
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: Public speculation grows. The police are searching for any leads

430
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 1: and at almost every single turn they found more questions

431
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: than answers. All Right, So one question, um that comes

432
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: to mind first is why did it take so long

433
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 1: for the police to rule the deaths a double homicide? Um?

434
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: It was a tall order for just about anybody uh

435
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: involved from the start. Um that Barry Sherman would kill

436
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 1: his wife and then himself. Also, if Honey had been

437
00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: murdered in a different part of the house, Barry would

438
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 1: have had to drag her body down to the side,

439
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: you know, the scene where they were found, this kind

440
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: of tableau, kind of scene. Um. And he was you know,

441
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: he he was older and lacked the strength to to

442
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: likely be able to do that, let alone the whole

443
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: posing thing that we we talked about a minute ago. Um.

444
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: So it's pretty unlikely that he would have been able

445
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: to do that even part of that, and even less

446
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: possible once we examined some additional details. Um, there are

447
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: marks on both of their wrists that indicated that they

448
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: had possibly been zip tied at some point. Um. So

449
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: that's super sketchy, and it really renders that scenario entirely unlikely. Yeah,

450
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: I want to point something out here. The home that

451
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: they were in is roughly twelve thousand square feet. Twelve

452
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: thousand square feet, that's a huge home. And if you

453
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: imagine just carrying the weight of the deadweight of a

454
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: human body, or even you know, carrying someone who is

455
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: still alive, who's maybe unconscious or something, down a huge

456
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: set of stairs and across a really long way to

457
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: the pool where they were found. Uh it is it

458
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: doesn't seem possible. I may have missed it. Where where

459
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: where do we see that there is a belief that

460
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: she was killed another part of the house. Uh, the

461
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,479
Speaker 1: idea that she had the brasier, the bruise on her

462
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: on her face, and that are the location of that

463
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: cell phone. Got it? So there's there's no like sale bathroom,

464
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: pretty much like a powder room. Like you said that.

465
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: So so for those of us playing along at home,

466
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: you'll start to notice more and more things point to

467
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: the possibility of not a crime of passion or of opportunity,

468
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: but something premeditated, something planned, which looks more and more

469
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: like what we could call a professional exercise. Uh, and

470
00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: that's what we call, yeah exercise? Sure, yeah, I mean

471
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: there you know again, I think of movies like seven

472
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: and like uh, even like Taxidermiah is a real weird

473
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: one where a guy like taxidermis himself at the end.

474
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: Spoiler alert, it's it's it's kind of in the name, um,

475
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: but yeah, really the the tab again, I keep seasing

476
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: this work, and this is what they always use in

477
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: these psychoanalytical kind of like murder movies, the tableau, you know,

478
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: the scene that was laid out. Another really interesting show,

479
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: the Spanish show called epitaphios Um that is on HBO.

480
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: It's it's older, but it's like really good. It's just

481
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: like a like a murder mystery where this murderer is

482
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: acting out all of these kind of clues in the

483
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: way he's leaving the body. And again not trying to

484
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: like in this to fiction. It's obviously real life and

485
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: this horrible thing that happened these people, But you can't

486
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: help but go there if you're a fan of this

487
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: kind of true crime fiction stuff, right, yeah, agreed. I

488
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: mean here's the thing. Uh, you can sadly already draw

489
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: a sharp contrast between the way the law treats double

490
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: homicides of non billionaires and double homicides of people who

491
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: have a lot of political and social and financial heft.

492
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: The it's very clear that the Sherman family's private team

493
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: was able to put some extra oomph into the investigation.

494
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: And it's not a ding on the police forces, who

495
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: are often understaffed, underfunded, and overworked. Right. But another voice

496
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: that changed their opinion was the chief medical examiner for

497
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: the county. The chief medical examiner heard the initial explanation

498
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: the doctor May Chase, and Dr. Chase went on record saying,

499
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: if this is a murder suicide by hanging, it will

500
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: be the first one recorded in history. Um, which might

501
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: sound a little hyperbolic. Can we unpack that a little bit,

502
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: meaning like that both died from hanging, that would be

503
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: there because a murder suicide, you know, well, at least

504
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: here in the States, it's it's often gonna be UH

505
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: firearm related or firearm power. But still it took a

506
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: like your question is great because it did take six

507
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: weeks before the police switched their conclusion. And again, Kevin Donovan,

508
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: who has done so much awesome journalism on this UH,

509
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: says you can tell that Donovan is a little, at

510
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: the very least put diplomatically confused by some of the

511
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: initial actions of the Toronto p d H. He says,

512
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: you know, they ignored crucial evidence video footage from a

513
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: neighbor's home. We'll get to in a moment. Uh. And

514
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: then he also notes, which is very surprising to me,

515
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: you guys, I mean, we're not legally experts. We don't

516
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: do crime scenes. But he says they didn't collect d

517
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: n A, they didn't dust for for fingerprints in a

518
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: timely fashion. Yeah. Well, I mean that's nuts. That is nuts,

519
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: And and it's because they were treating it like a

520
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: self inflicted incident at the house. Right, if it's a

521
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: murder suicide, they don't have to worry about anybody else

522
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: who may or may not have been in that house

523
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: at the time, so they don't have to even think

524
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: about that. And if you're operating that way as a

525
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: police force for six full weeks, you are gonna lose

526
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: a ton of stuff that you could have probably picked

527
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: on initially. Yeah, exactly, because there is a ticking clock,

528
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: you know. And then we talked about the sculpture. But

529
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: we've gotta make one more point too, in if this

530
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:48,719
Speaker 1: is the work of you know, a professional or career operator,

531
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: then why what gives with the bodies that's not necessary

532
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: to accomplish the task. That's something extra, right, That's that's

533
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: the order in Guacamo, to be very crass about it.

534
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: That's upon request, and it's probably more expensive if we're

535
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: if we're talking about, you know, just to say the

536
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: quiet part out loud, a paid hit well in the

537
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: time spent at a murder scene, yes, even more important. Right,

538
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 1: A professional would be painfully aware of that, right, and

539
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,439
Speaker 1: they would already have an exit strategy right, possibly out

540
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 1: of the country if they're smart. And on some level

541
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: that means there's a symbolic meaning to the the statues

542
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: in the posing, But we don't know what that what

543
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: that's supposed to symbolize. We don't know who that message

544
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 1: is supposed to have meaning for. It's like, um, it's

545
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: you know what, it's on the level of a Russian

546
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: number station. It's something weird. But where is that message

547
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: supposed to be sent? Yeah, you gotta have the you

548
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: gotta have the key to decipher it, you know. Otherwise

549
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: what even is it? Guys, I'm just having a thought

550
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: and we should probably say this for the end. But

551
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: if you're let's say, and equally wealthy or almost as

552
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: wealthy person who wants to have something like this done

553
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: and you could easily afford it. Um, you may also

554
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: have strings to pull in the police department to get

555
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 1: them to investigate it as a murder suicide. Just putting

556
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: that out there, it's a very good thing to put out.

557
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: It's also a thing you see. I'm sorry I keep

558
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: doing this. It's just kind of where my knowledge of

559
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff comes from. In crime shows, where

560
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 1: there'll be some brass that doesn't want to to declare

561
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: that we've got ourselves a serial killer, or doesn't want

562
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: to rule it a certain way because of political reasons

563
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 1: or perhaps because of pressure from some direction or another,

564
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,479
Speaker 1: just like Jaws, the novel Jaws, where where they're they're

565
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,760
Speaker 1: covering up the shark attacks to seaside town for towards.

566
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: It's very no. It has nothing can commeon do with Jaws.

567
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, we can say conclusively add

568
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: to the list, uh people who definitely did not do

569
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 1: this the sculptor Leo Sewell and every sharkfind any known species. Uh.

570
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 1: So there's this other question when you're talking about powerful forces, Matt,

571
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: I love that because it could be an equally powerful

572
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: person who is holding a grudge knowing that they can

573
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: touch people in in the law enforcement infrastructure such that

574
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: things get lost, things get buried, things get abstained, but

575
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: they don't have to live in town. What what if

576
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 1: this tragedy is somehow related to the pharmaceutical industry. That's

577
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: one of the first things people started to speculate about, right,

578
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 1: because the pharmaceutical industry overall is a huge business. It

579
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,240
Speaker 1: is global, it can sometimes act like a state actor.

580
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:53,240
Speaker 1: It's just very powerful. Um. And we found his source

581
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: that uh, we thought you all would enjoy because we

582
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 1: do talk about the importance of knowing the providence of

583
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: a source. Right. So Pharma Voice dot com, a little

584
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: bit of a scute source, addresses this directly and they

585
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: say they dismissed the idea of a plot by big

586
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,760
Speaker 1: pharma actors entirely. They say, you know, it's a common

587
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory. And then they say that there are rumors

588
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: there was a generic drug manufacturer out of Israel that

589
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: could have done it, or that the Clinton Foundation was

590
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: ordered the hit because APITEXS was sending generic drugs to

591
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico, Haiti and Rwanda. Uh. And this guy again,

592
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: Kevin Donovan, talk about punishing the honor student this guy

593
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,959
Speaker 1: says he continues to get calls today with people either

594
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: asking him about a potential connection to big pharma or

595
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: kind of telling them or seeming like they know well.

596
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: But but also like, I mean, I know you're not

597
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: talking about drug cartels, but if you're talking about bad

598
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: actors from another country wanting to kind of make an

599
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 1: impact or like send a message, you don't do something

600
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 1: mega cryptic, you like chop their heads off or something,

601
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: you know, you leave a calling card and maybe I mean, yeah,

602
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: like polonium in Russia, right for all those dangerous third

603
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: story windows. I think in this case that that calling card,

604
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: whatever it is, again, it's the posing of the bodies,

605
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 1: you know, Barry maccab But the I don't know, the

606
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 1: main thing that gives any sand to the idea big

607
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: of a pharmaceutical actor being involved or that somehow motivating

608
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: the deaths is that Barry had a ton of legal enemies, right,

609
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And I would just I want to give

610
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: this quote Ben that you found from what is this

611
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Robinson's book book book title if you want to

612
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,720
Speaker 1: look it up as Prescription Games, Money, ego and Power

613
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: inside the Global pharmaceutical Industry. And Robinson, the author of

614
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: this book, actually talked with Barry, and Barry had something

615
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: very interesting to say. You should do it, you should

616
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: do it, Okay, sure um. According to the author, Barry

617
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: told him that he was surprised one of his competitors

618
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: hadn't quote knocked him off already unquote. This is, of course,

619
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: before his passing hyperbole. Maybe yeah, I mean he's kind

620
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: of joking with her, like, I've really gotten over on

621
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: a bunch of these other companies. So it's weird they

622
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: haven't taken me out right, you know. And and the

623
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: weirdest thing is a lot of that comes down to intonation,

624
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: doesn't it. There's a huge difference between sand I'm surprised

625
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: they haven't knocked me off already, or I'm surprised they

626
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: haven't knocked me off already, you know what I mean.

627
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: Like it's very small things. But but like the all

628
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: of this is rich fertile soil for speculation, but it's

629
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: not proof. It's just people saying, hey, we know aspects

630
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 1: of the pharmaceutical industry are super shady. Hey we know

631
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,879
Speaker 1: this guy went hard and business dealings. But if we're

632
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: looking for evidence, then we need to look at things

633
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: like that surveillance video, which you can see online right now. Uh,

634
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 1: you just can't. It's not super helpful, but I think

635
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: it's it's damning when you consider the context. Yeah, well,

636
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: why don't we Why don't we take a break. You

637
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 1: go watch that video and then come right back and

638
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:36,800
Speaker 1: we'll talk about it and we're back. Let's let's describe

639
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 1: the video a little bit. It's like, you know, um, like, no,

640
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: you have you have one of those cameras, right, you

641
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: have a front door camera, Yeah, I have the ring Yeah,

642
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: so so you can see footage from that camera angle.

643
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: But it's it's not like, uh, it's a stationary camera, right, Yeah,

644
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: usually mount them somewhere or you know, have them be

645
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,919
Speaker 1: placed somewhere kind of innocuous or hidden. But yeah, it's

646
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 1: like a wide angle, kind of fish eye type lands.

647
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: So definitely grabs a good bit of stuff. It's a

648
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: pretty pretty wide shot. And this is this is something

649
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: to keep in mind, like hopefully you were able to

650
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,439
Speaker 1: watch the video over the break. In this video, keep

651
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: in mind our friends for more tropical climbs. This is

652
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 1: Canada and it's the time of the year when there's

653
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: snow everywhere. What does snow mean footprints, right, Uh, there's

654
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: a residential street that's not like right next to the

655
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: Sherman estate, but it's it's very near to the Sherman home. Man.

656
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: If you look at this footage, which is police got

657
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: from someone living in the area, uh, it's security camp footage,

658
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,720
Speaker 1: not hi def or anything like that of a guy

659
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: of a figure walking down the sidewalk sometime passes and

660
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: what is almost certainly the same figure walks back the

661
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: way it. Hey, you'll hear this called the walking man

662
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 1: footage sometimes, but police can't even tell it's a man.

663
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: There's like one thing they know about this figure. Yeah,

664
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: they kind of know the height of this person, somewhere

665
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 1: between five six and five nine. I would imagine there'd

666
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 1: be formula you could use to see how the lens

667
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: distortion and like you know, other stationary objects and all

668
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: of that and kind of cross reference and get an

669
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: accurate representation of that from even kind of crappy surveillance footage. Yeah,

670
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 1: I mean, it's definitely it's an estimate, right of how

671
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: tall that person is, because y'all, this person has a

672
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: gate that is very unique. Well, the way they walk

673
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: is unique, and that's one of the reasons that you

674
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: can say, oh, this is the same person that went

675
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: that away and then came back in this way. Matter

676
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: what it was, I wonder if it was just like

677
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: you know they keep on trucking guy, you know from

678
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: the our Crumb cartoons, or I mean like like a

679
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: real wide legged kind of waters like a verb kent thing,

680
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: perhaps a bit of a saunter. Yeah, I'm interested, Well

681
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: it wasn't. He definitely wasn't like on some docy dough energy.

682
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: Wasn't you know, skipping along. But but a lot of

683
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 1: us listening along today would say, well, if I see

684
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:25,240
Speaker 1: somebody with particularly unusual gait, uh in this kind of climate,

685
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 1: it can mean a couple of things. It can mean, uh,

686
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 1: they are injured. One, it could mean but they were

687
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 1: If they were injured, they were injured before they went

688
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: wherever they were going. Too. It could just suck to

689
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: walk in rough, rough weather. Right. Maybe maybe they're they're

690
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: cold and they're just tired of walking. So what made

691
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 1: him turn around? Right, that's a good point. Maybe their

692
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:52,479
Speaker 1: shoe is broken a little bit. Yeah, maybe maybe they

693
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: Here's the other thing. I'm not saying this is true,

694
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: but maybe they have a concealed weapon, right, And it

695
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: would have to be it would have to be something

696
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: that was concealed in such a way that it was

697
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: affecting their gait. You would need to be an expert

698
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 1: on a couple of things to be able to tell

699
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 1: what someone was carrying by the way they were walking. Right,

700
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: even even like um, even people with a lot of

701
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 1: experience and spotting, you know, a concealed firearm, they'll be

702
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: able to tell by the way someone moves or the

703
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 1: way their jacket is sitting on the wh Yeah, exactly,

704
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: that they won't be able to guess the specific firearm. Yeah,

705
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: they might be able to guess the type or the

706
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 1: size of of of object that they're they're concealing. But no,

707
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know that anything that you could

708
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 1: conceal like that would like change your walk in a

709
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,919
Speaker 1: significant way. There would be some telltale sign. I guess,

710
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: a shotgun, but stupid Sassburg down a pant leg and

711
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: I was like, uh, probably wouldn't be able to do that, right,

712
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: I guess. I just don't think of those as the

713
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: kinds of weapons you conceal unless you're doing some sort

714
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: of trench coat yeah, or down the pant leg cartoonish

715
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: kind of thing, you know, or you're aware there's a camera, right,

716
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: so you mess up your gate just like verbal kent

717
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 1: spoiler uh, to get away uh or to not be identified? Right.

718
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: That is a very clever idea, mat and I like that,

719
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: and it also it also explains the big problem with

720
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: the idea of a concealed weapon. If you are caught,

721
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: you run into anybody and you've got you've got a weapon,

722
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 1: and you can't explain why you have it, where you're

723
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 1: going to, where you're coming from, right, then you have

724
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: immediately escalated the problems evolved in your situation. So, okay,

725
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 1: so there's a sketchy person, and if you know, it's

726
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 1: very reasonable to say, what if this person just just

727
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: someone who had to like walk to a neighbor's house,

728
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: someone who forgot something somewhere and they walk and they're

729
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 1: like crap, they walked out and then they walked back right. Uh?

730
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: Possibly right. But if that's the case, if this is

731
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: an innocent person, why have they not come forward whether

732
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 1: you have to be identified? What what gives? Right? I mean?

733
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: One possibility would be that they were doing something shady

734
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 1: that was unrelated and they just didn't want to get caught,

735
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 1: you know, like they're they're sneaking out to party or

736
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: maybe to like buy drugs or have illicit sexual stuff.

737
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 1: Uh so they're not going to come forward in that case.

738
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 1: But that's that's like winning the lottery twice for that

739
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: to happen, you know. Yeah, because I don't want to

740
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: get back to this concept of the open door and

741
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:50,280
Speaker 1: open window. Yeah, just a little bit, because I really

742
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: I think the timing of the house sale factors into

743
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: this in some way. And that lock the like you

744
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: like you said, the what do they call is it

745
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: a lock box? The thing that you put out on

746
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: the front of a door, so a real turk and

747
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: it's just like a little little mat usually come from

748
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: Master Locks, the company, and it's just got a little

749
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: window and then you know, you know, a little Yeah,

750
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 1: some of them are fancier, but I think a lock

751
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: it's a type of lock box very specific purpose to

752
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: fit around a door knob. I think there's something to

753
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:27,919
Speaker 1: someone touring the home and unlocking a window while they're

754
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,240
Speaker 1: on that tour, because that is a really effective way

755
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 1: to create an opening for yourself if you're planning to

756
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 1: return at some point. Yeah, that I agree with you,

757
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 1: because that is an efficient way that houses get cased.

758
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: But it's also it also would only be worth that

759
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: further exposure if someone uh didn't know the basement was

760
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: typically unlocked, you know they would they would have to

761
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: not know that, or maybe they're super buttoned up and

762
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: they get the window just as insurance as a second right,

763
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 1: which you would want redundancy ideally, but like then you

764
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: but then you have to see I love spending this

765
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:19,280
Speaker 1: out right, Um, then then you would have to ideally

766
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: have another person involved, because I'm certain that everybody who

767
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 1: toward the house got questioned. Right, it's it's a it's

768
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 1: a mansion. It's a mansion in Toronto, which has a

769
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: crazy cost of living. Even then the real estate prices

770
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: were nuts, So it's a very specific demographic. It's going

771
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,359
Speaker 1: into these mansions. Well then here here it is, Ben,

772
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: here's the scenario. Uh, some very wealthy person who could

773
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,800
Speaker 1: actually purchase that home toward it, maybe with a spouse,

774
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: with their family or alone, and they opened the window

775
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 1: for the professional they hired to enter later. Right, Because

776
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: at a certain level, you don't do a lot of

777
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: stuff yourself. You have a staff of some sort, right, uh,

778
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: whether that's cleaning your house or cleaning out your your

779
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: your vengeance list that it's also anomalous though, because knowing

780
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: the weather at that time, why would you have a

781
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: window open? I wouldn't. No, most people would not write. Uh.

782
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: So I think for all of us and probably our

783
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 1: fellow listeners, that lack of forced entry is um is

784
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 1: a key sticking point, right It's it's a problem with

785
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 1: all the scenarios that we try to walk through. So

786
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 1: let's go back to our expert, author Kevin Donovan, author

787
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 1: and journalist Kevin Donovan, who says that this, based on

788
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: the other research he conducted, this to him, indicates that

789
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:53,479
Speaker 1: the murderer must have somehow been incredibly familiar with the

790
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 1: interior of the home, and not just that, but likely

791
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 1: had a pretty suffici sticated working knowledge of the sherman's

792
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: routine and schedules. And that's kind of why if you

793
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 1: are you know what, that's kind of why some of

794
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 1: us put a lot of energy into uh, not having

795
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: an easily discernible routine, right like other than other than

796
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 1: when we are podcasting or when we know we're getting

797
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 1: together to do stuff for hang out, the three of

798
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 1: us don't know where the other ones are. I think

799
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,959
Speaker 1: it's just a good policy. Come on, all right, come

800
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 1: on now, let's just leave it there. Let's just leave

801
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 1: it there. We do you guys, look just everyone. We

802
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 1: we do some like mutual I don't know. I think

803
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: it's just a game of cat and mouse fun tracking

804
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: each other thing. It's it's fun. It's like what we

805
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: do for fun. Who are you doing like a royal

806
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: we because on this show? What you don't do that? Uh? Yeah,

807
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 1: you know. Here's a here's a trick though, if you

808
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: do think that someone is doing some kind of untoward

809
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 1: tracking and you need to throw them off for any reason, right,

810
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: one of the things that you can do very easily

811
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: is just figure out how much time you need to

812
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 1: buy and then take your phone, your cell phone, and

813
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 1: put it on like put it on mass transit where

814
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 1: it will get stolen and someone else will take it. Uh,

815
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: you could, if you want to involve someone else, put

816
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 1: it in like a privately owned car or something with

817
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 1: their consent. It's the only way it's legal. Yeah. The

818
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: best thing for me is record like high fidelity television

819
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: show with a separate mic, then play that back in

820
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: a place in your house that has a television has

821
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 1: a capability to play that that content and then go

822
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 1: do your business. But but make sure you it sounds

823
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: of you watching the TV inside the recording. Yeah, I

824
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: like that one. It's a it's a little extra work,

825
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: like our our conversation where you and I were very

826
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 1: much saying that you gotta reheat pizza in the pan.

827
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: It's just it's a little extra work, but it improves

828
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:32,720
Speaker 1: the end result. This conversation just went through a couple

829
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: of very strange places. But um, but yeah, they're So

830
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 1: what we're doing is we're we're endeavoring to think in

831
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: a very grounded way through the problems, right because again,

832
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 1: even the police investigation, even the private investigation, just lead

833
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:53,879
Speaker 1: to more questions so far as we know now at

834
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 1: this point, You know, folks, we we only do two

835
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: part episodes when we feel very strong only about what

836
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: we need to get to, and this is one of

837
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 1: those situations. So we're going to pause here at part

838
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 1: one of who killed the Sherman's and we're gonna return

839
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 1: in our very next episode with part two. But in

840
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: the meantime, we want to know what you think. That's right,

841
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: let us know what you think. You can reach us

842
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 1: at Conspiracy Stuff on Twitter, YouTube and Facebook, Conspiracy Stuff

843
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,760
Speaker 1: Show on Instagram. We have a phone number one three

844
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 1: s T d W y t K. When you call in,

845
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 1: give yourself a cool nickname, and you've got three minutes

846
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 1: say whatever you'd like. Let us know if we can

847
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 1: use your name and voice on one of our listener

848
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 1: mail episodes. And those are the only rules. If you

849
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: don't like using your phone to give us a call,

850
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Speaker 1: why not send us an email. We are conspiracy at

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Speaker 1: iHeart radio dot com. Yeah. Stuff they don't want you

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00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 1: to know is a production of I heart Radio. For

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00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:11,919
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart

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Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

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Speaker 1: favorite shows.