WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 237 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:03.120 Also media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.760 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.440 you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.719 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.560 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:24.720 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:32.600 Hello, dear listener. My name is Carlos Berrios Polanco and 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.080 I'm a journalist from Puerto Rico. I'm here with. 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.440 Me James Stown. I'm a journalist who lives in San Diego. 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:44.199 Thank you for being here, James. Today, I'm here to 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.760 talk to you about the Dominican Republic's immigration system and 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:54.320 how it has been shaped by the US's immigration system 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.960 to kind of function as a part of the US 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:02.360 border outside of what we would normally consider the US's border. 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:06.119 And instead of diving in immediately to that, I want 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.960 to start this episode by talking a little bit about 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:14.240 the tragic death of Ezra Francis Houllett, a transperson from 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:18.000 the United States, in immigration detention in the Dominican Republic. 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:20.959 I should mention that they use both them and he 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:24.240 him pronouns. However, I'm going to be using they them 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:27.039 going forward, because that's what the friends and family of 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:30.520 Hullet put as their pronouns, and the GoFundMe. They were 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:34.520 found dead in the Haina Immigration Detention Center, the biggest 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:38.320 immigration detention center in the Dominican Republic, on June twenty third, 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:41.880 twenty twenty five. The GoFundMe, set up by their family 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:44.840 to bring their body back to the States, describes them 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:48.160 as a compassionate and sensitive person who lived with mental 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:51.520 health issues and the after effects of childhood trauma. They 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.640 were twenty four and a really good artist from looking 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:59.560 at their Instagram. Per the Dominican news show Ellen form Conaltega, 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.160 who interviewed Hollet's mom, Hullet traveled to Puerto Rico without 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:06.360 their family's knowledge and seemed to be in contact with 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:09.800 a social worker here. I found a local Telemundo affiliate 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:12.079 here in Puerto Rico that reported that they went missing 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:16.239 on September third of twenty twenty four. However, it gofund 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:18.280 me says that they were missing in pr since March 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:21.320 of twenty twenty five. And Hollet's mom told elin Former 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:24.200 that that's when they last spoke. Around that same time, 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:27.760 Hollett flew to the Dominican Republic. According to ellen Form, 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:31.480 shortly after that, they were detained inside a construction site 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.840 where it appears that they were squatting alongside a Dominican man. 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:37.920 After being detained by the tourism police, they were passed 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.200 on to the Dix Young henerrad Le Megrasciung or DGM, 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:45.840 which does immigration enforcement and manages detention centers. Per ellen Former, 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:48.920 this was about thirty seven days after they entered the DR. 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:52.320 I want to preface this next section by saying that 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:56.120 the DR isn't particularly kind to transfolks, which I'm sure 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:02.720 affected Hollet's experience during immigration detention. Hollet was initially sent 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.320 to the male wing of HEINA, not because the DR 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.200 is particularly woke and sends people to detention based on 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:11.440 their gender identity, but because they were male presenting and 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:14.360 didn't have any ID on them. However, once the DGM 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.440 was able to identify Hullet, they were transferred to the 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:21.000 female wing of HEINA. To be honest, quite a bit 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:24.399 of the reporting around Hullet in the DR and here 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.400 in Puerto Rico is quite transphobic, and the way that 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:31.080 these immigration officials talk about Hullet in this kind of 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:36.160 mini documentary by Ellen Former is also quite transphobic. Videos 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:38.960 published by Ellen Former appeared to show Hullet curled up 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.320 on the floor next to dozens of other people who 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:45.080 were sleeping in two small rooms inside of immigration detention. 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:49.240 Some of the notes in videos uncovered by Ellen Former 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:52.160 appeared to show that Hullet was suffering from a mental 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:54.520 health crisis Throughout the more than two months they were 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.200 in immigration detention. Pullet's mom told ellen fordmher that Hullet 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:02.320 suffered from schizophrenia. They also wrote about having asthma and 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:05.440 being allergic to milk. Per Ellen Fode Ma, Hullett's mom 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.320 conferred to them that they needed an inhaler and an EpiPen. 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:12.160 Although news reports say that DGM provided Hullett with some 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:15.200 medicine for the apparent mental health crisis they were going through, 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.040 I can't find any reporting that says that they ever 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:21.120 got an inhaler or an EpiPen that they needed. A 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:24.719 coroner's report found that they died from a heart attack, 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:30.640 according to notesjasin a national news website. There, per information 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:35.240 obtained by the Inter American Commission of Human Rights, quote, 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:38.960 at least four facilities are being used as immigration detention centers, 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:44.080 present overcrowding, unsanitary conditions, deficient food, and lack of access 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.560 to healthcare. The same report states that a newborn died 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:52.760 in Heina on November fourteen of last year. People I've 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:55.520 spoken to who've been detained in Heina over the years 0:04:55.760 --> 0:05:00.040 have described the conditions there as horrific, particularly as the 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:04.599 Dominican government has ramped up deportation efforts massively against the 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:10.679 country's Haitian population. Detention Centers are routinely overcrowded and people 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:13.200 have very little access to food or water for days, 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:15.760 from what they tell me. Further, people I've spoken to 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:19.760 detainnes are sometimes beaten or extorted by guards to be 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:22.200 able to call their families, to get their documents or 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:24.559 for food, and I talk a little bit more about 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:27.760 this later on in the episode. But the reason that 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:32.080 I started with Hullet's story is twofold. First because their 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:37.279 death was significantly undercovered by English language media, and second 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:41.080 because they died as a direct result of an immigration 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:46.320 system the systematically abuses Haitian immigrants and has been historically 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.279 shaped by the US military and the American border apparatus. 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:54.120 While they're organized in different ways within the law enforcement 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.120 structures of their respective countries, there are a lot of 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:00.679 similarities between the DGM and ICE and the United States, 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:05.880 particularly in their tactics and how they've terrorized immigrant communities. However, 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.279 before diving into the current immigration situation in the Dominican 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:11.200 Republic and how a lot of it has come as 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:15.520 a result of collaboration with American immigration enforcement, I want 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:19.120 to give some historical context about how, in a very 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:23.160 real way, the United States created the Dominican Haiti border. 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:26.800 The Demerican Republic was originally a Spanish colony, Haiti was 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.960 originally a French colony. Haiti became independent, then invaded the 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:35.240 Dominican Republic, then they fought them back to become independent themselves. 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:39.440 But throughout all of that time, the Dominican Haiti border 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:44.640 was in amorphous space, not the kind of quote unquote 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:48.360 hard border that it is today. There had been agreements 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:52.760 on where the border was supposed to be. People roughly 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.760 knew where that border was supposed to be on a 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.560 map and on the earth. If they lived near that area. However, 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.440 it was just kind of essentially an imaginary line that 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.679 ran along the two hundred and forty miles of land 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:10.880 that make up the border between the two countries. However, 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:15.160 in nineteen oh five, the US established a customs receivership 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.200 over the Dominican Republic to force the Caribbean nation to 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.920 pay its foreign debts and ostensibly protect it from a 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:26.280 possible European invasion, which is a classic Monroe doctrine move. 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.440 Of course, yeah many such cases. 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.920 This agreement was officially ratified for a nineteen oh seven 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:40.120 convention and created the Dominican Border Guard to police the 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:43.400 frontier between the two countries and make sure that all 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.560 duties were collected from commerce and people crossing the border. 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.920 According to a journal article titled Haitians, Magic and Money, 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:55.040 Drasa and Society and the Titian Dominican Borderlands by A. 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:58.560 Lauren Derby, while these weren't the first border guards, they 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.560 were essential to turning the border lands into the border 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.720 as it exists today, one of the most highly regulated 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:08.240 and police borders in the Western Hemisphere. And I should 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.360 also say that at some points throughout Dominican history, the 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:15.000 military patrol the border. Per a document from the Marines 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:19.280 titled Marines in the Daminican Republic nineteen sixteen to nineteen 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:23.360 twenty four, North Americans were part of the Dominican Frontier 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.800 Guard that regulated this border. Some would later go on 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:30.280 to become part of the Guadala National Dominicana, which was 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:33.600 created by the American military government that controlled the dr 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:37.840 between nineteen sixteen and nineteen twenty four. In nineteen twenty one, 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:42.760 the GND turned into the Porcia Dominicana, which also stationed 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:45.600 people of the border. At that time. For more context, 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.880 the American government was occupying Haiti at more or less 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:52.000 the same time from nineteen fifteen to nineteen thirty four. 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:57.320 This period of American occupation of L'spanola greatly defined the 0:08:57.360 --> 0:08:59.960 relationship that both countries would have with each other go 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:04.199 going forward, as well as both countries military and law enforcement. 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:08.280 The military occupation of the Dominican Republic also led to 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:11.160 laws that prevented the entry of workers who weren't white 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:14.080 unless they came through official border crossings and paid for 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.719 temporary residence permits. This is, according to the book More 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.920 Than a Massacre, Racial Violence and Citizenship in the Haitian 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:25.400 Dominican Borderlands by Zabine Cadeau. While there had always been 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:30.080 racial prejudice on Hispaniola, this brought even more, leading to 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:33.840 Dominican security forces to arrest people on suspicion that they'd 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:36.800 broken this law even if they hadn't, and it was 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:40.079 later used to strip Dominicans of their citizenship. It also 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:44.600 strengthened the idea of quote unquote Dominican ivad as something 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:49.600 closer to being white and European. That sentiment that continues 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:53.160 to this day and in some ways is even stronger 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:54.199 now than it was then. 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:56.559 What centering my mind is I think it was a 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:58.440 tweet that said they're coming out with a new version 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:02.920 of white that doesn't include you. Like whiteness is a 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:06.120 liminal concept, is something that can be can be hard 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:09.480 for people from the US to understand. But yeah, I've 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:12.040 heard this directly elucidated to me many times that like 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:18.160 dominicanness and blackness are distinct. Absolutely the Haitian people are black, 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:20.720 which obviously is someone who's who's lived in the UK 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.200 and the United States is difficult for me to understand. 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:26.880 But like all of these things are so feally constructed 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:28.880 that doesn't mean they're not real. It just means that 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:31.520 that people made them, people can move them. 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:35.680 Yeah. Absolutely. I have also had people, to my face 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:42.000 say that the Dominican identity is completely separate from blackness, 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:44.640 you know, and as someone who has lived in Puerto Rico, 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.520 which is part of the United States are owned by it, 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.839 that also to me was very very strange. And I'd 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:54.440 say this as someone who whose mother is Dominican, right, 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:56.959 So I was just kind of like, yeah, stand when 0:10:57.160 --> 0:10:59.320 the first time that I heard it, and sometimes it's 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:02.520 called even at Kiska is how it's it's being marketed 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:05.960 by some people in the current day. Although I will say, 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.120 if you've seen the video of the comedian I think 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.400 saying I know blacky Dominican, that's a I have pretty 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:19.000 much witnessed something exactly like that said completely seriously several 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:19.959 times throughout my life. 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:22.640 Yeah, it doesn't mean that like Dominican people coming into 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.559 the unit US will not encounter anti blackness, because. 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:26.800 They will, oh absolutely, yeah. 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:29.640 Yeah, it's just that it also doesn't mean that on 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.800 return to Dominican Republic they cannot slot into a different 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.360 structure which puts them above Haitian people. 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.800 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's a very it's a very interesting 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:45.760 topic how those kind of identities are presented in separate 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.720 ways depending on on where you live. Because for me, 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:52.280 for example, if I went to the US, most people 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.640 would say that I'm brown, but here in Puerto Rico, 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:57.840 I'm kind of very explicitly a white person here, you know. 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.280 Yeah, it's it's so it's such a short flight as well. 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.000 Know that flight from Miami Tominic come by, You got 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:06.200 Punta Kana or whatever at the airport there, that's like 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.520 out of Santo Domingo, and so much changes, right like 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:11.360 you can you can literally get on that plane as 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:14.160 someone who is considered to be black and then get 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:16.839 off that and be treated by American law enforcement like 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:20.520 you are ye, within like a one hour flight. And yeah, 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:24.280 it's just this is like the nature of creating hierarchies, right, 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:27.679 they can shift to include people and shift to exclude people. 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:31.080 To absolutely absolutely, So I know I'm speaking to the 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.920 choir about this, but this kind of definition of borders 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:38.440 and national identity are an essential part of the nation 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.520 state and immigration enforcement because if you don't have an 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:45.079 established border, it's very hard to define the in group 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:48.480 that belongs inside of the nation and that group that doesn't, 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:52.360 who can then be detained, penalized, and deported for crossing 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:56.360 that imaginative line in the earth. These kinds of steps 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.960 by the US military government were essential to creating this idea. 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:03.760 The Dominicans in Haitians are two completely different people, have 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:06.199 it to be clear, It's not that this sentiment didn't 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:09.880 exist beforehand. In particular, the Dominican elite hated Haitians a 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.960 lot for the invasion of dr by Haiti. That centem 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.600 existed in the borderlands, but a lot of those people 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:19.680 were bilingual, which is very different from kind of people 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:23.200 inside of the metropol who saw themselves as kind of 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.560 this one identity versus along the borderlines, which is usually 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:32.040 what happens. Right there is a kind of melding identities 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.000 in ways that isn't seen anywhere else. 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.600 Yeah, this is the same where I live, right, Like 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:43.120 San Diegotijuan's effectively like it's not one large city. They're 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.920 important and very very very real differences, but like in 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.480 many ways, one community, right, like so many of our 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:54.560 community members, Like I have students at at the community 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:56.920 college who cross every day. I've had students who have 0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:00.360 to high school classes who crossed every day. Like I've 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.760 got friends who couldn't make rent work in California and 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:07.400 so they go to Tijuana and like, obviously, o those 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.959 people speak two languages or like both languages at the 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.560 same time. I think that's just a nature of living 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:14.720 in the borderliness. 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:20.000 Yeah, absolutely so. Following the US's exit from the Dominican Republic, 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:24.280 Dictator trafil Throughhillo came to power in nineteen thirty. He 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:26.720 was trained by the US military and eventually rose to 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.600 the rank of Brigadier General of the PND. Then militarized it, 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.920 and as the word dictator implies, he was not a 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:38.640 good guy. Under him, the already burgeoning and existent anti 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:44.120 Haitian sentiment essentially exploded. He introduced the SEA, a national 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.640 identification document for all adult men, so Haitians had to 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:51.560 pay for the SEA and a foreign residency permit, essentially 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:56.040 ending the binational lifestyle of communities on the border. According 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.600 to more than a massacre, if the US started the border, 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:03.200 then Trhillo marked it as a sign of utter violence 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:06.880 by ordering his troops to ethnically cleanse the Dominican border 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.880 of Haitians. In October of nineteen thirty seven. This was 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:15.720 known as the Parsley Massacre, and estimates of people killed vary, 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:18.640 but the most common number I've seen used is roughly 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:22.440 twenty thousand Haitians killed over the course of about a 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:26.160 week to two weeks. And this massacre, of course came 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:30.160 about as a way for him to define the border 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:33.840 by stripping Haitians of that land because they were It 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:36.040 was mostly done inside of the Dominican side of the 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.880 d R. Haiti border. Yeah, it's called the Parsley Massacre 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:44.680 because soldiers reportedly recognize Haitians by their inability to pronounce 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:49.400 Parsley in Spanish prehied. However, experts think that this was 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.560 just a myth, another way to separate Haitians from Dominicans. 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.760 According to More Than a massacre also is a not 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:58.960 so fun fact. A lot of the violence took place 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:01.800 along the Massacre River, which a lot of people think 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.440 is called that because of the nineteen thirty seven massacre. 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.720 But from the various Spanish language sources I've read, they 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:12.760 all essentially say that this isn't true that it was. 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.600 It's called the Massacre River because of the frequent violence 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:20.840 that took place there. Between Spanish colonizers and French buccaneers 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:23.480 in the eighteenth century. And this is according to an 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.360 article by se Montal Driguos Nacola titled Dominican Republic and 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:31.000 Haiti at the crossroads of the Massacre River. The Dominican 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:35.600 Immigration Agency the DGM was also established by Trigo just 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:39.560 two years after the Parsley Massacre. Not only were they 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.760 essential to deporting Haitians during Trhiyo's reign, but they also 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:47.760 forced the Haitian population into the sugar producing regions of 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:52.040 the country, and because he couldn't deploy overt state violence 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.200 there in the same way that he did along the border, 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.160 they came up with a new plan. Any Haitian immigrant 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:00.120 detained in the area would just be brought back to 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:05.040 whatever sugar plantation would pay their immigration taxes, essentially creating 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:07.920 these zones which still very much exist to this day 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:11.919 of Haitians living in and around these sugar plantations that 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.680 they also work at. I should say that this wasn't 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.400 a codified policy, but that it coexisted with other tactics 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:24.080 throughout the years. The Juhio government also instituted a policy 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:28.399 that made all Haitians who owned land or businesses to 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.320 not be able to work outside of the sugar producing regions. 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:35.200 According to a journal article titled Avail of Legality by 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:39.639 Amelia Hinson, I visited some of these sugar plantations in 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.840 twenty twenty three, and many of the Haitians and Dominicans 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:46.399 of Haitian descent who live there are descendants of the 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:50.840 ones Trhiyo pushed into the region. While anti Haitianism already 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:55.080 existed before, through Hillyo, he cemented it into the political 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.679 structures of the Dominican Republic to the point that it 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:02.119 still continues incredibly strong into the modern day. About fifty 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.600 one percent of Dominicans believe that immigration harms the country, 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.520 per a twenty twenty four pole by the polling firm 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:13.320 Latin Nobarromtro. Many Haitians come to the Dominican Republic seeking 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:16.000 a better life for themselves and their families, much like 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.840 immigrants in the US, and similarly to the US, getting 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:23.680 a visa or becoming a citizen for them is extremely difficult. 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:26.159 This isn't to say that there aren't a lot of 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:28.760 Haitian immigrants in the Dominican Republic, and I should also 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.560 say that they are by far the largest immigrant group 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.640 in the country, which makes sense because they're next door neighbors. 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:41.320 The construction and the sugar cutting industry are completely dependent 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:45.880 on cheap Haitian labor. The sugar cutting industry is heavily 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:48.640 reliant on this labor, a lot of which is done 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:52.560 by undocumented immigrants. Many people over the years have called 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:56.800 it a quote unquote modern form of slavery. I've been 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:00.320 to these camps and what they endure for extra dreamely 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:03.960 little pay is horrific. I went there at the tail 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:08.080 end of twenty twenty three. And while there are some 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:11.399 places set up by the companies that own those sugar 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.440 producing regions that are they're like they're called batayas inside 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:19.640 of the sugar cane mazes. Some of the batayas have 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:23.880 like houses made out of cement with electricity, and some 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:29.760 are completely degraded, made from wood that's rotting and they 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.600 have no access to running water or electricity. There have 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:38.439 been over the years attempts by both human rights groups 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:43.280 and the companies that own those regions. It wasn't benevolently, 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:46.439 is my opinion on it, but more because of the 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:49.200 pressure that they've received over the years. To move these 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:53.240 people into somewhat better conditions, and thankfully for some of 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:57.000 them that they have. For others they have not. A 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:00.560 lot of the Haitian migration in the last decades has 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:04.200 come after the twenty ten Haiti earthquake and the twenty 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:08.920 twenty one assassination of Haitian President Jovenol Moyes. The two events, 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.320 as well as other crises, have caused people in Porter Prince, 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:16.840 the capital of Haiti, to experience significant violence and hunger crises. 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.520 Hundreds of thousands of people have been forced out of 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:23.320 their homes and left the country over the last decade, 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:27.520 per the Migration Policy Institute, For many, the national path 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:31.280 of migration out of Porter Prince is towards the border 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.320 and towards the Amican Republic. And as we've seen, a 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.960 lot of those Haitian migrants have also tried to go 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:42.119 into the US through Latin America. And I mean not 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:44.520 to say that they exclusively go there, of course, but 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:47.159 they try to go wherever they're able to go. 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:53.240 Yeah, I wor a piece for NBC. God when you 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.040 could still write things critical of the Biden deministration NBC, 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.680 like in twenty twenty one, right when the United States, 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:01.800 embas See and Haiti had a picture of Biden. It 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:04.120 was translated into kreole right, but it was like it essentially, 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:06.320 do not come that, We'll turn you around sand you 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:09.000 back like this. This is the guy who'd run, you know, 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:12.880 like months before on a kindness where Trump had done cruelty. 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:15.920 I remember like right around that time in twenty twenty one, 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:18.520 so there was a large number of migrants, of course, 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:21.960 who had been stuck in Tijuana because of Title forty two. 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:24.760 They tried to cross and they kept getting bounced back right, 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.560 and so I would cross to talk to them. They 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:32.280 moved to like right by where the ped West pedestrian 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:34.520 crossing is now, and they were just camping there in 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:36.800 the square. Like literally, you go over the broad border 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:38.960 bridge that goes over the road, you pop out your 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.520 first step on like on the ground, and the bridge 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:44.960 is probably in Mexico at some point, but they're right there. 0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:48.560 I remember speaking to Haitian folks there about like they'd 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:51.800 had genuinely hoped for a little bit better from the 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.040 Biden administration, which of course they didn't get. Very common 0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:59.240 pathway is to Brazil to do underpaid construction work for 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:04.399 the Rio Olympics, and then finding yourself without work, without 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.719 much of a chance at citizenship for permanency, deciding to 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:09.879 come Norfolk that that was very common pathway at a 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:10.359 time too. 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:26.080 So about two hundred thousand display Haitians are believed to 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:29.000 have moved to the DR in the months after the earthquakes, 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:33.680 according to the International Organization for Migration, And after that 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:37.879 flow of migrants to the DR and the rising tide 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:41.200 of anti Haitianism which had been building for a very 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:45.560 long time, in twenty thirteen, the Constitutional Court of the 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:50.240 Dominican Republic ruled that people born in the Dominican Republic 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:55.920 two immigrant parents without a regularized migration status had never 0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:59.840 been entitled to Dominican citizenship. This ruling is called lacent 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:05.359 ensia the judgment. What this essentially did was that if 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:08.960 you do not have at least one parent who is 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:12.920 a Dominican citizen, then you do not have Dominican citizenship. 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:17.240 In the US, we have birthright citizenship or jusli, which 0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:20.320 means that if you're born on this land or inside 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:23.920 the US, you are an American citizen. This course applies 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:28.520 almost everywhere except certain colonies like American Samoa, so essentially, 0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:31.080 in the Dominican Republic, if one of your parents was 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:34.600 not Dominican, you did not have citizenship. The thing about 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:38.119 judicial decisions is that they typically only go forward in time. 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:42.479 But what was particularly evil about La Centensia was that 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:47.640 it applied retroactively to nineteen twenty nine. And I want 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:50.479 listeners to sit with that for a second. Even if 0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:53.200 it applied just going forward, it would be a horrible thing, 0:23:53.800 --> 0:23:57.560 but going back nearly one hundred years is just horrendous 0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:01.520 because what the ruling caused was a chain reaction that 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:06.000 stripped entire families of their citizenship. Because if your grandparents 0:24:06.000 --> 0:24:08.639 were in citizens then neither was your dad. And if 0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:10.960 your mom was in a citizen then then neither are you. 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:15.560 Of course, this ruling also affected anyone who did legally 0:24:15.600 --> 0:24:18.760 still have citizenship but didn't have the documentation going back 0:24:18.840 --> 0:24:21.480 that far to prove it if the government came knocking. 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:26.159 So yeah, essentially, imagine if you had to prove that 0:24:26.359 --> 0:24:31.840 your great grandparents were citizens in nineteen twenty nine. I mean, 0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:34.439 I don't think I personally would have that documentation for 0:24:34.560 --> 0:24:36.479 my great grandparents. 0:24:36.520 --> 0:24:39.119 Especially living like in the lower forty eight in the 0:24:39.240 --> 0:24:42.160 US it's just more likely that you one might have 0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:47.320 documentation of ones like great grandparents and living in parts 0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:48.119 of the DA. 0:24:48.280 --> 0:24:51.920 But yeah, essentially for me, it would be incredibly hard 0:24:52.160 --> 0:24:55.719 to have a documentation for my great grandparents. I couldn't 0:24:55.720 --> 0:25:00.439 imagine someone who has moved throughout their lives inside of 0:25:00.440 --> 0:25:04.680 the Dominican Republic to also have a documentation. And that 0:25:04.880 --> 0:25:08.919 there's also the fact that because of the antiationism that 0:25:09.080 --> 0:25:12.520 was there, a lot of people who did or were 0:25:12.600 --> 0:25:16.080 supposed to legally still have citizenship were rolled up in 0:25:16.119 --> 0:25:19.640 the people whose citizenship this law took away. In total, 0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:24.440 the decision impacted about two hundred and forty five thousand Dominicans, 0:25:24.640 --> 0:25:28.960 of which two hundred eleven thousand were Dominicans of Haitian descent, 0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:32.760 according to the Center for Migration Studies, I of course 0:25:32.760 --> 0:25:36.800 say Dominicans because they were legally speaking Dominicans at the 0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:39.879 time that the sentenciad took place, but now they have 0:25:39.960 --> 0:25:43.880 been stripped of that citizenship. The Dominican government tried to 0:25:44.000 --> 0:25:47.400 backtrack this decision just a year later, after a lot 0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:51.320 of international criticism and provide a path to the stateless, 0:25:51.600 --> 0:25:55.359 but the damage was done. In twenty twenty three, it's 0:25:55.480 --> 0:25:58.520 estimated that as many as one hundred thirty thousand people 0:25:58.600 --> 0:26:03.720 remained stateless CMS. There is no law that provides a 0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:06.840 path to citizenship for the children of the stateless. So 0:26:06.960 --> 0:26:10.720 even after this twenty fourteen law that tried to make 0:26:10.760 --> 0:26:13.760 people back into citizens or provide a pathway to citizenship 0:26:14.359 --> 0:26:17.520 if you have a child, that child was not going 0:26:17.560 --> 0:26:21.480 to have citizenship. Yeah, because so many people were affected 0:26:21.480 --> 0:26:23.800 by it, and a lot of the slowness of the government, 0:26:24.040 --> 0:26:27.399 the ways that government doesn't work. You have this wave 0:26:28.520 --> 0:26:31.920 of denationalizations, and because of a lot of the problems 0:26:31.920 --> 0:26:35.440 of the government, some people who should have had that 0:26:35.480 --> 0:26:38.639 pathway to citizenship provide it to them still don't have it. 0:26:39.000 --> 0:26:41.480 Right, it's going to be so much harder to get 0:26:41.520 --> 0:26:45.439 those people back, and like understandably, it's going to be 0:26:45.520 --> 0:26:47.320 very hard to get those people to engage with the 0:26:47.359 --> 0:26:50.760 state in any way. Absolutely, because why the fuck would 0:26:50.760 --> 0:26:53.960 you that it just told you like that you don't 0:26:54.040 --> 0:26:57.840 belong right, that this state is a danger to those people. 0:26:58.000 --> 0:27:01.000 And of course not to mention that the anti Haitian 0:27:01.080 --> 0:27:04.080 sentiment that the government has. You know that maybe the 0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:06.960 government at the top decided to go back, but that 0:27:07.359 --> 0:27:10.639 anti Haitian sentiment is still there from the top down 0:27:10.720 --> 0:27:11.119 of course. 0:27:11.160 --> 0:27:13.640 So yeah, yeah, it takes a long time to get 0:27:13.640 --> 0:27:16.359 out of something like what happened on the trio, right, 0:27:16.440 --> 0:27:21.120 like the massacre and then ongoing like the state being 0:27:21.200 --> 0:27:23.720 used as a weapon against you, Like yeah, people aren't 0:27:23.720 --> 0:27:25.320 going to just be like, Okay, well this is a 0:27:25.320 --> 0:27:28.080 benevolent entity. Now let me go, let me go chat 0:27:28.119 --> 0:27:30.040 with him, tell them where I live and make sure 0:27:30.080 --> 0:27:31.880 they got all my information up to date. Like It's 0:27:31.960 --> 0:27:34.879 just it takes a long time to rebuild that trust. 0:27:35.520 --> 0:27:39.280 Absolutely. So at the same time that this was happening, 0:27:39.680 --> 0:27:45.359 the Dominican government created a sprawling immigration enforcement apparatus that 0:27:45.520 --> 0:27:50.600 has systemically punished Haitians and Dominicans of Haitian descent that 0:27:50.640 --> 0:27:55.600 they made stateless. These numbers are honestly, quite quite horrifying. 0:27:56.200 --> 0:28:00.399 In twenty twenty five, the DGM registered three hundred seventy 0:28:00.480 --> 0:28:04.480 nine thousand, five hundred and fifty three deportations according to 0:28:04.520 --> 0:28:08.160 their self published numbers. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean 0:28:08.600 --> 0:28:11.000 three hundred seventy nine thousand, five hundred and fifty three 0:28:11.040 --> 0:28:14.439 people were removed from the country because of possible double 0:28:14.560 --> 0:28:17.520 or triple counting if a person crossed the border more 0:28:17.560 --> 0:28:21.040 than once and were detained and deported. But even if 0:28:21.080 --> 0:28:25.399 you cut that figure in half or in freeze, that 0:28:25.560 --> 0:28:29.480 still is a staggering amount of people's lives who have 0:28:29.520 --> 0:28:34.440 been touched and affected by this deportation apparatus. To give 0:28:34.480 --> 0:28:37.960 some more recent numbers, in May of twenty twenty six, 0:28:38.160 --> 0:28:41.280 the DGM said that they deported thirty five thousand, three 0:28:41.360 --> 0:28:45.160 hundred and five migrants according to their own numbers, And 0:28:45.240 --> 0:28:48.760 the thing about the Dominican Republic is that essentially every 0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:53.640 law enforcement agency does immigration enforcement. The great majority of 0:28:53.680 --> 0:28:58.680 those migrants deported in May were detained by the DGM, 0:28:58.760 --> 0:29:02.960 the Detectinda. Out of the racion, about five eight hundred 0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:07.520 were detained by the Dominican Army and about two thousand, 0:29:07.560 --> 0:29:11.120 three hundred by this specialized Land Border Security Corps which 0:29:11.160 --> 0:29:15.160 is known as says Front. They essentially patrol the national 0:29:15.240 --> 0:29:18.480 border with Haiti, and about one thousand, three hundred of 0:29:18.520 --> 0:29:22.800 those people were detained by the National Police. These numbers 0:29:22.880 --> 0:29:27.200 are so staggering because all of these law enforcement agencies 0:29:27.240 --> 0:29:30.800 are trying to meet a ten thousand a week quota 0:29:31.320 --> 0:29:34.280 that President Luis avinade is set for the Dominican government 0:29:34.400 --> 0:29:38.120 in twenty twenty four and continues to follow. This number, 0:29:38.280 --> 0:29:42.600 to me is really really staggering, and it's kind of 0:29:42.760 --> 0:29:45.440 horrific because you read it on paper and it's hard 0:29:45.480 --> 0:29:51.400 to really understand the immensity of this mechanism to forcefully 0:29:51.560 --> 0:29:54.680 move people out of the country, and as well as 0:29:55.040 --> 0:29:58.520 all of the law enforcement work and immigration enforcement work 0:29:58.560 --> 0:30:01.280 that goes into detaining the people in the first place, 0:30:01.440 --> 0:30:05.320 then sending them to immigration centers, and then deporting them 0:30:05.360 --> 0:30:08.239 outside of the Demican Republic. And that the way that 0:30:08.240 --> 0:30:11.720 that usually happens is that they are loaded into these 0:30:12.480 --> 0:30:16.520 trucks which are converted horse trucks. Sometimes they are like 0:30:16.560 --> 0:30:18.840 the little short ones and sometimes are the very long 0:30:18.920 --> 0:30:21.520 ones that you see to move palettes of stuff that 0:30:21.680 --> 0:30:26.120 have this cage built onto the mac and people are 0:30:26.160 --> 0:30:29.200 just stuffed to the brim inside of there. It's really 0:30:29.560 --> 0:30:30.760 incredibly inhumane. 0:30:31.240 --> 0:30:33.320 Yeah, damn, that's rough. 0:30:33.960 --> 0:30:39.120 So migrants are routinely extorted while in immigration detention. Per 0:30:39.160 --> 0:30:42.640 an anonymous source that spoke with least Indiadio, a national 0:30:42.680 --> 0:30:46.640 paper in the dr that detainees are routinely hit up 0:30:46.640 --> 0:30:50.440 for bribes during immigration raids and during their detention. For 0:30:50.600 --> 0:30:54.880 the article, guards in Haina, the largest immigration detention center 0:30:55.040 --> 0:30:57.800 in the DR, we're charging about two hundred and two 0:30:57.880 --> 0:31:01.200 hundred and seventy dollars to be freed, which might not 0:31:01.360 --> 0:31:04.880 seem like an insurmountable amount of money in the US, 0:31:05.400 --> 0:31:08.760 but it's about half of the average monthly salary in 0:31:08.840 --> 0:31:13.360 the DR, and these migrants are making much much less 0:31:13.400 --> 0:31:17.000 than that. Yeah, the same report says that guards sometimes 0:31:17.240 --> 0:31:21.880 charge migrants families so Detanese can get food while detained. 0:31:22.680 --> 0:31:25.120 So much of the rhetoric that abin Aleed and other 0:31:25.160 --> 0:31:30.160 Dominican officials used to justify their actions, especially in recent years, 0:31:30.360 --> 0:31:35.240 is that immigration contributes to the destabilization of their society. Meanwhile, 0:31:35.480 --> 0:31:37.960 the vast majority of Haitian immigrants are just trying to 0:31:37.960 --> 0:31:40.520 live in peace and escape the violence or crisis that 0:31:40.520 --> 0:31:43.920 they're facing in their home country. And like I said earlier, 0:31:44.520 --> 0:31:47.480 a lot of industries than the DR rely on cheap 0:31:47.520 --> 0:31:50.560 patient labor. And I would be remiss to mention that 0:31:50.600 --> 0:31:54.600 a lot of the people that the Dominican Republic's immigration 0:31:54.920 --> 0:31:59.040 enforcement are deporting are people that the Dominican Republic made 0:31:59.120 --> 0:32:05.520 stakeless first place. So they essentially created this gigantic group 0:32:05.560 --> 0:32:09.360 of people that they are now supporting rights. It's the 0:32:09.400 --> 0:32:15.560 way that the nation state operates to kind of push people, 0:32:16.040 --> 0:32:18.920 to push people that it considers undesirable out of that 0:32:19.080 --> 0:32:20.280 nation's borders. 0:32:20.800 --> 0:32:23.120 Yet it this is like Ben Anderson right when he's 0:32:23.120 --> 0:32:25.640 writing about nations, says, no nation can be co terminous 0:32:25.640 --> 0:32:28.200 with all of humanity. And then when we combine the 0:32:28.280 --> 0:32:31.840 nation with the state, that's when we get if no 0:32:31.920 --> 0:32:34.440 nation can be co terminous with all humanity, and then 0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:37.400 the state is policing who and it's not part of 0:32:37.400 --> 0:32:40.000 the nation and expelling those are not like that, that's 0:32:40.040 --> 0:32:42.760 when we get what we see here, right, what we 0:32:42.800 --> 0:32:44.080 see here in the US. 0:32:45.920 --> 0:32:48.680 We talked about this a little bit earlier, but whenever 0:32:48.720 --> 0:32:51.520 I talked to Haitians or Dominicans of Haitian descent about 0:32:51.520 --> 0:32:55.000 immigration enforcement in their country, they pretty much tell me 0:32:55.160 --> 0:32:59.000 the same thing. So the Dominican government everyone black is Haitian. 0:32:59.200 --> 0:33:02.400 And we talked about and how the conception of Dominicanidad 0:33:02.840 --> 0:33:06.600 has become separate from the way that they view Haitians 0:33:06.680 --> 0:33:11.000 as black. Yeah, many civil society and human rights organizations 0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:15.560 have documented how the DGM uses racial profiling as a 0:33:15.720 --> 0:33:19.800 justification to detain pretty much whoever they want. It's got 0:33:19.840 --> 0:33:22.920 so bad that in twenty twenty two, the American State 0:33:23.000 --> 0:33:26.640 Department issued a travel warning for quote unquote darker skinned 0:33:26.680 --> 0:33:30.080 Americans about the risks of being swept up in the 0:33:30.120 --> 0:33:33.880 country's immigration crackdown. And to me at the time, having 0:33:33.920 --> 0:33:38.720 written about that, it's kind of incredible to see American 0:33:38.800 --> 0:33:42.320 agency be like, Hey, the racism this country is so bad, 0:33:42.400 --> 0:33:44.160 you should be on the lookout. Yeah. 0:33:44.240 --> 0:33:48.000 Yeah, like you might not want to go exactly. Yeah, 0:33:48.120 --> 0:33:48.720 that's wild. 0:33:49.320 --> 0:33:54.640 Yeah. So the DGM routinely performs midnight immigration rates on 0:33:54.760 --> 0:33:58.400 Haitian communities, break down their doors and drag people kicking, 0:33:58.560 --> 0:34:01.120 screaming from their beds, and load them up on the 0:34:01.280 --> 0:34:03.840 repurposed cattle trucks and horse trucks that I was talking 0:34:03.880 --> 0:34:08.160 about earlier. There are usually about thirty or so people 0:34:08.640 --> 0:34:11.640 in those immigration trucks, the small ones pushed up against 0:34:11.680 --> 0:34:14.080 the metal bars. And I've seen this personally at the 0:34:14.560 --> 0:34:18.960 dr Haiti border, where they're taken from immigration detention centers 0:34:19.000 --> 0:34:22.080 and then dropped off and essentially forced to walk into 0:34:22.080 --> 0:34:25.320 the Haiti. When I was at the border in twenty 0:34:25.320 --> 0:34:28.480 twenty three. The ones I saw and was able to 0:34:28.520 --> 0:34:31.239 speak to had grabbed everything that they could as they 0:34:31.239 --> 0:34:34.640 were getting detained, because they knew that it was possible 0:34:34.680 --> 0:34:36.880 they could never make it back. Some of these people 0:34:36.920 --> 0:34:41.000 included mothers carrying small children and babies. One worker who 0:34:41.080 --> 0:34:43.960 I spoke with worked in construction, and he claimed that 0:34:44.040 --> 0:34:48.040 he was being deported because his boss had called immigration 0:34:48.200 --> 0:34:52.319 enforcement on them because they were talking about getting paid more. 0:34:52.600 --> 0:34:56.800 Yeah, tail us all as time with a documented labor sadly. 0:34:56.800 --> 0:35:00.360 Absolutely, and this is big in the sugar cane cutting 0:35:00.400 --> 0:35:03.319 regions as well, or at least it used to be. Yeah, 0:35:03.680 --> 0:35:06.759 And it's a kind of a recurring system because you know, 0:35:07.120 --> 0:35:09.840 they get deported, but there's not really any work or 0:35:09.920 --> 0:35:12.319 safety in some cases in Haiti, so they're forced to 0:35:12.320 --> 0:35:14.759 come back over the border to do the same job. 0:35:15.320 --> 0:35:15.600 Yeah. 0:35:16.239 --> 0:35:19.600 Many Haitians live in fear, hiding from immigration authorities as 0:35:19.680 --> 0:35:22.080 much as they can while trying to work to feed 0:35:22.120 --> 0:35:25.799 their families. It's especially bad for pregnant mothers who can't 0:35:25.840 --> 0:35:28.040 go to hospitals for fear of being swept up by 0:35:28.080 --> 0:35:31.080 immigration rates. There have been several women who were deported 0:35:31.200 --> 0:35:34.640 very quickly after being discharged, according to a report by 0:35:34.640 --> 0:35:37.960 the Guardian, and I've personally seen a pregnant mother with 0:35:38.040 --> 0:35:41.360 a small child forced across the dr Haiti border after 0:35:41.400 --> 0:35:45.800 being dumped there by DGM, similar to how the American 0:35:45.840 --> 0:35:50.279 government essentially created the Dominican Haiti border and shaped its 0:35:50.320 --> 0:35:54.080 border guard in the early nineteen hundreds. They also routinely 0:35:54.120 --> 0:35:58.640 provide training for several law enforcement agencies who enforce the 0:35:58.840 --> 0:36:04.240 Dominican immigration laws. For example, agencies from the Dominican Republic 0:36:04.440 --> 0:36:10.359 routinely received training from International Law Enforcement Academies, which are 0:36:10.400 --> 0:36:14.799 international police academies administered by the US State Department where 0:36:14.920 --> 0:36:18.520 US law enforcement trained police and other law enforcement agencies 0:36:18.520 --> 0:36:21.560 from other countries. A training schedule from twenty twenty four 0:36:21.719 --> 0:36:25.200 I found showed that the Dominican Republic participated in nine 0:36:25.239 --> 0:36:29.920 sessions throughout the years with agencies like ICE and CBP. However, 0:36:30.080 --> 0:36:32.440 when it comes to being trained by the US, no 0:36:32.520 --> 0:36:37.279 one beats the Querpo Especial Sado de Segrestre known as 0:36:37.280 --> 0:36:41.719 SESSFRONT or the Specialized Land Border Security Corps. They are 0:36:41.719 --> 0:36:45.240 in charge of securing and quote unquote protecting the Dominican 0:36:45.360 --> 0:36:48.680 border with Haiti. They are in arm of the military 0:36:48.760 --> 0:36:52.000 and were created in two thousand and six. That same year, 0:36:52.239 --> 0:36:56.640 unidentified quote unquote US experts reported that there were a 0:36:56.719 --> 0:37:00.280 quote series of weaknesses that will lead to all kinds 0:37:00.320 --> 0:37:04.239 of illicit activities along the border. According to a two 0:37:04.280 --> 0:37:08.200 thousand and six article from Dominican Today. For the same article, 0:37:08.400 --> 0:37:11.920 the military patrolled the area beforehand, but the study revealed 0:37:11.960 --> 0:37:15.799 the lack of and bad shape of the Dominican Armies facilities, 0:37:15.840 --> 0:37:19.560 the lack of training, logistics, weapons, vehicles, garments, as well 0:37:19.600 --> 0:37:23.240 as low wages and bad nutrition for these these soldiers. 0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:25.520 And I should say that's a quote from the Dominican 0:37:25.600 --> 0:37:28.960 Today's article, and I wanted to talk a little bit 0:37:28.960 --> 0:37:31.920 about the border before I explain it later on in 0:37:32.000 --> 0:37:35.359 more detail. But a lot of the border that I've 0:37:35.400 --> 0:37:38.200 been to between the Demaican Republic and Haiti is along 0:37:38.280 --> 0:37:42.120 the Massacre River where part of the Parsley massacre happened, 0:37:42.120 --> 0:37:46.960 and you essentially have this very big cement and iron 0:37:47.080 --> 0:37:51.560 and steel border wall going up that has completely separated 0:37:52.440 --> 0:37:56.480 this contiguous piece of land where people were once upon 0:37:56.560 --> 0:37:59.040 a time over one hundred years ago, able to more 0:37:59.120 --> 0:38:03.240 or less walk between and walk over without much restriction. 0:38:03.360 --> 0:38:05.760 At all, and you know the place where they've built 0:38:05.760 --> 0:38:09.560 the barrier. This was not like what you know whenever 0:38:09.680 --> 0:38:12.040 someone from Puerto Rico, whenever someone talks to me about 0:38:12.040 --> 0:38:15.720 the US border, I'm imagining the big iron wall throughout 0:38:15.800 --> 0:38:19.680 the desert. This, yeh, was not that. This was kind 0:38:19.680 --> 0:38:23.399 of very lush, green mangroves. They used to be one 0:38:23.440 --> 0:38:25.840 big forest, but now they created a bait strip of 0:38:25.920 --> 0:38:29.040 land that now separates that forest that once was won 0:38:29.719 --> 0:38:32.520 and then put the border wall there. So a lot 0:38:32.560 --> 0:38:35.520 of this modern history of collaboration between the US and 0:38:35.600 --> 0:38:39.600 the dr immigration enforcement is recorded in Todd Miller's Border 0:38:39.640 --> 0:38:42.920 Patrol Nation and Empire of Borders, both of which I 0:38:43.000 --> 0:38:45.839 recommend everyone go read. Yeah, Miller is great. 0:38:46.239 --> 0:38:48.799 Yeah, mid Thiss books are fantastic. I know, we both 0:38:48.840 --> 0:38:49.839 really enjoy them. 0:38:50.400 --> 0:38:50.960 Yeah. 0:38:51.280 --> 0:38:54.200 Yeah, a real resource for anyone looking to understand the 0:38:54.239 --> 0:38:57.000 border and its history and like how we got to 0:38:57.040 --> 0:39:00.319 this situation. Wasn't hard to see it coming, actually, Yeah. 0:39:00.480 --> 0:39:02.960 And a lot of Orbitral Nation is from the early 0:39:03.080 --> 0:39:05.920 twenty tens too, so it was really kind of pressure 0:39:06.360 --> 0:39:07.400 in many ways. 0:39:07.760 --> 0:39:11.160 Yeah, very much. So, Like I remember, I remember reading 0:39:11.200 --> 0:39:13.839 that book and then like thinking about it a lot 0:39:13.960 --> 0:39:16.160 as I was in the Dominican Republic, and even when 0:39:16.160 --> 0:39:20.759 I was in Panama last year, like the Biden administration 0:39:20.960 --> 0:39:25.759 right was financing deportations from Panama of people who had 0:39:25.760 --> 0:39:28.720 just crossed a varian gap, but chiefly to Colombia, almost 0:39:28.840 --> 0:39:32.719 entirely Colombian young men. I literally watched these guys get 0:39:32.760 --> 0:39:35.279 like I watched a family who had known from the 0:39:35.320 --> 0:39:37.960 jungle right, and then we reconnected in La Jas Blancas, 0:39:38.000 --> 0:39:41.640 which is a reception center. Reception center is a pretty 0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:44.520 euphemistic term there. It's not a great place to be. 0:39:44.840 --> 0:39:48.000 I think it's closed now actually, but they would come 0:39:48.239 --> 0:39:50.440 and call out names and it was like, what's going on, 0:39:50.560 --> 0:39:53.319 Like maybe we're getting taken somewhere, like maybe this is 0:39:53.360 --> 0:39:55.160 they want to check out passports and then just start 0:39:55.200 --> 0:39:58.320 loading me into same thing like a flatbed truck. And 0:39:58.400 --> 0:40:01.040 I remember one guy like having to give his baby 0:40:01.200 --> 0:40:03.719 to his wife and I was there and he was like, Hey, 0:40:03.719 --> 0:40:05.719 what are they doing? And I was like I don't know, man, 0:40:05.840 --> 0:40:07.719 Like I don't know that. Some guy was like this 0:40:07.800 --> 0:40:10.799 is how they deport people. It was a very wow, Yeah, 0:40:10.800 --> 0:40:13.400 it's horrible. And then his wife was just like standing 0:40:13.400 --> 0:40:15.680 there next to me and like I was horrible, Like 0:40:15.680 --> 0:40:17.080 I put my arm around her, and she was just 0:40:17.200 --> 0:40:21.120 sobbing and of course separated from her partner and the 0:40:21.120 --> 0:40:24.120 father of her child. But yeah, it's rough to think that. 0:40:24.160 --> 0:40:26.479 Then I went home and did my work and paid 0:40:26.480 --> 0:40:29.200 my taxes and paid my little share of that family 0:40:29.200 --> 0:40:31.960 getting torn apart. But yeah, that was that was Blue Team. 0:40:32.400 --> 0:40:34.759 There wasn't a drump thing like this is. The US 0:40:34.840 --> 0:40:39.680 has been trying to move that traumatic violence further and 0:40:39.719 --> 0:40:42.719 further from its population for a long time. That's what 0:40:42.880 --> 0:40:45.360 strong borders are, right, Strong borders of violence. Strong borders 0:40:45.400 --> 0:40:48.520 are tearing families apart. Strong borders are people dying. And 0:40:48.920 --> 0:40:52.400 there was an understanding shared by both parties that Americans 0:40:52.480 --> 0:40:55.920 don't like seeing dead people. They don't like seeing families 0:40:55.920 --> 0:40:58.279 torn apart, as we've seen in the last few years, 0:40:58.320 --> 0:41:01.520 a couple of years, and so they have sought to 0:41:01.680 --> 0:41:05.160 move that violence further away from the metropol rather than 0:41:05.520 --> 0:41:06.800 stopping doing the violence. 0:41:07.239 --> 0:41:10.680 Yeah. Absolutely. Miller talks a lot about this in his 0:41:10.840 --> 0:41:16.760 book Right Where. Part of the US's internal migration policy 0:41:16.800 --> 0:41:19.360 as it relates to foreign policy, is that if you 0:41:19.400 --> 0:41:23.680 can stop migrants from coming into the US at another border. 0:41:24.239 --> 0:41:27.200 That means that they won't be able to reach their border, 0:41:27.320 --> 0:41:30.360 right yeah. An academic who described it to Todd Miller 0:41:30.400 --> 0:41:34.000 as kind of border sets in ways that the borders go. 0:41:33.960 --> 0:41:37.200 There, Yeah, like clusters or something, right yeah, yeah. 0:41:37.280 --> 0:41:37.960 Yeah. 0:41:37.440 --> 0:41:40.080 It was a dude who he's like a veteran and 0:41:40.120 --> 0:41:42.759 he was like in Afghanistan and saw border patrol out there. 0:41:43.560 --> 0:41:45.200 Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. 0:41:45.280 --> 0:41:45.480 Yeah. 0:41:45.520 --> 0:41:48.600 So the way that better than that person explains it 0:41:48.680 --> 0:41:53.080 is that these borders are created in such a way 0:41:53.120 --> 0:41:57.400 to keep people from flowing into the United States, but 0:41:57.760 --> 0:42:00.680 able for people inside of the United States to more 0:42:00.960 --> 0:42:04.640 very easily leave them and pass through them. Right. So, 0:42:04.719 --> 0:42:09.440 for example, let's say a migrant from Haiti wanted to 0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:12.000 go into the US, they would be faced with an 0:42:12.000 --> 0:42:17.520 incredibly uphill battle of passing several borders. It might be 0:42:17.800 --> 0:42:21.279 the border from Haiti into the Dominican Republic, than into 0:42:21.320 --> 0:42:24.520 Puerto Rico, or it might be Haiti to some Latin 0:42:24.560 --> 0:42:27.560 American countries, then a several Central American countries, and then 0:42:28.000 --> 0:42:32.160 onto the US southern border. Right yeah. But versus let's 0:42:32.160 --> 0:42:33.919 say if I wanted to go to Haiti, it would 0:42:33.920 --> 0:42:36.960 be pretty incredibly easy for me to go there, right, 0:42:37.000 --> 0:42:38.560 and this is you know what we see. 0:42:38.840 --> 0:42:39.040 Yeah. 0:42:39.080 --> 0:42:43.480 Yeah, the way that these this mechanism is constructed for 0:42:43.600 --> 0:42:47.200 the in group to be able to move freely around 0:42:47.200 --> 0:42:49.239 the world and the out group to have an incredibly 0:42:49.280 --> 0:42:53.160 hard time actually coming into the US. 0:42:53.160 --> 0:42:56.400 My friend Erica from Alosta, Alada like to say, we 0:42:56.440 --> 0:43:00.239 already have open borders. We already have no borders only 0:43:00.280 --> 0:43:00.880 for some people. 0:43:01.440 --> 0:43:04.880 Yeah, exactly. And of course I'd be remiss not to 0:43:04.920 --> 0:43:09.160 mention that capital flows very easily through borders as if 0:43:09.239 --> 0:43:12.920 they do not exist. Yeah, because they don't for money. 0:43:13.320 --> 0:43:24.120 Yeah. 0:43:24.600 --> 0:43:28.080 As Miller lays out an Empire Borders post nine to eleven, 0:43:28.280 --> 0:43:32.719 the US adopted a very strong policy of considering terrorism 0:43:32.760 --> 0:43:37.040 against American interest quote over there needing to be regarded 0:43:37.040 --> 0:43:39.920 in the same way as terrorism over here, right, And 0:43:39.960 --> 0:43:42.839 of course terrorism the way that the US government sees 0:43:42.880 --> 0:43:45.719 it is probably extremely different from the way that you 0:43:45.760 --> 0:43:49.560 and I see it, James. Yes, So this ideology essentially 0:43:49.600 --> 0:43:53.359 pushed the American border everywhere because everything that the US 0:43:53.400 --> 0:43:56.319 didn't agree with was a threat to its interest. This 0:43:56.480 --> 0:44:00.160 is essentially kind of the same reasoning as a Monroe doctrine, 0:44:00.280 --> 0:44:03.560 and the American Empire just massaged it for the modern 0:44:03.600 --> 0:44:07.920 world in some ways. This is why international collaboration between 0:44:07.960 --> 0:44:12.040 American immigration enforcement and border security agencies his skyrocketed since 0:44:12.080 --> 0:44:14.880 the dawn of the millennium, to the point that CBP 0:44:15.000 --> 0:44:18.040 agents have traveled around the world to show countries how 0:44:18.080 --> 0:44:21.640 to enforce their country's borders so that people inside of 0:44:21.680 --> 0:44:25.040 those countries wanting to leave and reach the United States 0:44:25.120 --> 0:44:28.239 borders are never able to do. So. We talked a 0:44:28.280 --> 0:44:30.040 little bit about this, I can't remember if it was 0:44:30.080 --> 0:44:33.359 on air or off air, about how Bavino did that 0:44:33.400 --> 0:44:34.160 in Honduras. 0:44:34.719 --> 0:44:36.920 Yeah, that's right, that was something I found recently. I 0:44:36.960 --> 0:44:41.319 was reading some document about this border of externalization and 0:44:41.360 --> 0:44:43.640 he's one of the people interviewed. Yeah, it's like when 0:44:43.680 --> 0:44:45.560 he was in bor Tech, Right, Bavino was a member 0:44:45.600 --> 0:44:48.720 of bor Tech and they were going out on patrol 0:44:49.200 --> 0:44:52.680 with I guess, I don't know Hondoras has border patrol 0:44:52.840 --> 0:44:55.279 or I coudn't quite know what the structure they're under is, 0:44:55.719 --> 0:44:57.080 but they were going out on patrol with him, and 0:44:57.120 --> 0:44:59.239 then like the bor Tech guy so armed and running 0:44:59.280 --> 0:45:03.040 around but not technically not the ones making arrests. Yeah, 0:45:03.080 --> 0:45:05.200 Like you can read this in the Miller books. But 0:45:05.719 --> 0:45:08.719 this is a thing that the US does all over 0:45:08.760 --> 0:45:09.080 the world. 0:45:09.400 --> 0:45:09.800 Yeah. 0:45:09.840 --> 0:45:13.120 Absolutely, And Miller traveled to a lot of countries where 0:45:13.160 --> 0:45:17.719 people were agents of their countries border security apparatus or 0:45:18.080 --> 0:45:21.440 law or an agency. We're like, yeah, I've been trained 0:45:21.440 --> 0:45:22.480 by the US of course. 0:45:23.000 --> 0:45:25.160 Yeah, like talking about like the Kaibiles. 0:45:25.520 --> 0:45:25.879 Like in. 0:45:27.320 --> 0:45:29.920 Anyway, everyone should read the book, kind of recount the book. 0:45:30.120 --> 0:45:30.880 It's a good book. 0:45:32.080 --> 0:45:35.160 So if you look at the border enforcement or immigration 0:45:35.239 --> 0:45:38.560 agencies around the world, you'll find that they may look 0:45:38.680 --> 0:45:42.480 like the United States because they are modeling themselves off 0:45:42.520 --> 0:45:45.560 of the trainers that train them or help shape their creation. 0:45:46.360 --> 0:45:49.920 Says FRONT takes after its border patrol big brother in 0:45:50.000 --> 0:45:52.360 many ways, but one of the most salient is in 0:45:52.400 --> 0:45:54.879 the wall that they patrol. As I mentioned a little 0:45:54.880 --> 0:45:57.800 bit earlier, in twenty twenty two, the Dominican Republic started 0:45:57.880 --> 0:46:02.200 construction of a Mexico US style border wall that, if 0:46:02.200 --> 0:46:05.520 it's finished, would span almost half of the border with Haiti. 0:46:06.080 --> 0:46:08.680 When the project is completed, it will be the second 0:46:08.840 --> 0:46:12.040 longest border wall in the Americas, the first being the 0:46:12.080 --> 0:46:15.000 Mexico US Wall. It is supposed to be high tech, 0:46:15.120 --> 0:46:18.359 containing a series of cameras, radars, and drones that are 0:46:18.360 --> 0:46:21.120 supposed to run the length of the wall. This wall, 0:46:21.320 --> 0:46:25.120 like many other border walls, has done intense environmental damage 0:46:25.160 --> 0:46:28.000 along the course of the border, particularly to the mangroves 0:46:28.000 --> 0:46:30.480 that run along the border where the wall is being built. 0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:34.480 In twenty twenty three, I visited Dahabong, a town in 0:46:34.520 --> 0:46:38.680 the northern section of dr Haiti border, to report on 0:46:38.760 --> 0:46:42.840 the Dominican Republic's immigration enforcement apparatus. For myself. The Hobong 0:46:42.960 --> 0:46:45.719 is where the Cessfront has a very important base, and 0:46:45.800 --> 0:46:49.600 as I mentioned earlier, it's a place where a lot 0:46:49.600 --> 0:46:53.200 of the violence of the Parsley massacre took place. Tessafront's 0:46:53.239 --> 0:46:56.120 base in the Hobong is painted in a beige brown 0:46:56.239 --> 0:46:59.040 camouflage pattern that makes it stick out like a sore 0:46:59.120 --> 0:47:03.840 foam against the green forest background where it's stationed. However, 0:47:03.880 --> 0:47:07.080 it does blend into that strip of land where they've 0:47:07.160 --> 0:47:10.319 cut out to make the border wall. You know, in 0:47:10.360 --> 0:47:14.000 many ways the government tries to reshape the land in 0:47:14.080 --> 0:47:15.759 nature to fit its image. 0:47:16.960 --> 0:47:18.759 Yeah, it's kind of the same here, Like that's in 0:47:18.800 --> 0:47:21.319 the desert this weekend and I was like climbing up 0:47:21.360 --> 0:47:23.440 into mountains there, and you can look down at the 0:47:23.440 --> 0:47:25.960 border wall and it's like a it's like a scar 0:47:26.120 --> 0:47:29.440 across the landscape. You can for miles as far as 0:47:29.440 --> 0:47:31.759 you can see it. So looks like somebody sliced through 0:47:31.800 --> 0:47:36.120 this in this case, this pristine desert landscape, right, And yeah, 0:47:36.120 --> 0:47:38.320 I can see it being only worse in these areas 0:47:38.320 --> 0:47:40.400 where like it's so lush and green. 0:47:40.760 --> 0:47:44.400 Yeah. Absolutely, from aerial drone images that I've seen of 0:47:44.440 --> 0:47:47.680 the border, it definitely looks like a kind of sand 0:47:47.719 --> 0:47:51.440 colored scar, especially in that the Habong area where you 0:47:51.480 --> 0:47:53.800 have green on both sides and then that sand color 0:47:54.160 --> 0:47:58.840 line running through it. Yeah, so the Dahabon border crossing 0:47:59.080 --> 0:48:03.439 is extremely close to cessfront space there. When I was there, 0:48:03.560 --> 0:48:06.960 the border between the two countries was officially closed because 0:48:06.960 --> 0:48:10.000 of a dispute over the canalization of the Massacre River. 0:48:10.400 --> 0:48:13.360 Haitians needed the water for agriculture along the border, but 0:48:13.360 --> 0:48:16.160 the Meinican officials said that the canalization would take water 0:48:16.320 --> 0:48:19.920 away from their own purposes. A couple weeks after I 0:48:19.960 --> 0:48:22.319 was there, they opened up the border again, which was 0:48:22.520 --> 0:48:27.160 extremely necessary because border towns like Dahawong and Juanaminthe, which 0:48:27.200 --> 0:48:29.759 is the town on the Haitian side rely on each 0:48:29.760 --> 0:48:32.279 other a lot for trade, and this has been that 0:48:32.360 --> 0:48:37.400 way since time immemorial in that region. Right, the binational 0:48:37.400 --> 0:48:40.480 market in Da Howong is pretty much the only place 0:48:40.520 --> 0:48:44.400 where Haitians are legally allowed to enter, but they have 0:48:44.480 --> 0:48:47.680 to leave the same day they came in. So essentially 0:48:48.239 --> 0:48:52.000 this giant market, and there is a steel wall that 0:48:52.160 --> 0:48:55.799 runs along the outer perimeter of it, which is where 0:48:55.840 --> 0:48:59.200 you have cess front border guards. So if you pass 0:48:59.239 --> 0:49:01.360 through the border cross saying you do the whole like 0:49:01.480 --> 0:49:05.520 immigration check, you're able to go into the market. Yeah, 0:49:05.680 --> 0:49:07.680 and you could essentially do like a circle around it, 0:49:07.680 --> 0:49:09.120 so you're able to go into the market and then 0:49:09.160 --> 0:49:12.280 you leave the backway which connects to another border crossing. 0:49:12.920 --> 0:49:15.400 Oh so you're like you're in like a like a bubble. 0:49:15.480 --> 0:49:19.080 Yeah, essentially like that you yeah, okay, Yeah, essentially it's 0:49:19.080 --> 0:49:21.480 crazy that they're like going that hard to be like 0:49:21.520 --> 0:49:25.520 we want your money, we just don't want you exactly exactly. Yeah, 0:49:25.520 --> 0:49:28.839 And it's really the it really shows that the hypocrisy 0:49:28.840 --> 0:49:31.600 of these these border systems, because you know they're yeah, 0:49:31.640 --> 0:49:35.600 these two towns are extremely reliant on one another, but 0:49:36.239 --> 0:49:40.200 the countries that represent both towns are like, no, we 0:49:40.280 --> 0:49:44.920 need to enforce this this border right yeah. So yeah, this, 0:49:44.920 --> 0:49:47.160 this market in the Hubbong is where a lot of 0:49:47.239 --> 0:49:49.759 people on the Haiti side of the border are able 0:49:49.760 --> 0:49:51.640 to buy and sell a lot of stuff they wouldn't 0:49:51.840 --> 0:49:55.320 otherwise have access to. Sure. So the bridge that runs 0:49:55.360 --> 0:49:58.200 over the Massacre River that connects the Hobong to what 0:49:58.239 --> 0:50:00.840 I mean is within feet of the national and like 0:50:00.880 --> 0:50:04.720 I mentioned, all encircled by says Funt's guards. Any Haitian 0:50:04.800 --> 0:50:07.560 who would try to pass that fence without going past 0:50:07.600 --> 0:50:11.480 the official checkpoint would likely be detained and deported immediately 0:50:12.320 --> 0:50:15.279 if they're caught by the border guards. And as we know, 0:50:15.680 --> 0:50:19.640 even if a border presents itself as extremely rigid, a 0:50:19.680 --> 0:50:22.279 lot of it is for show. At least in my 0:50:22.320 --> 0:50:24.920 experience with the Dr Haiti border, right, a lot of 0:50:24.960 --> 0:50:30.040 it is theater security theater. Yeah. Yeah. So when I 0:50:30.120 --> 0:50:32.719 was there, I spent the better part of my time 0:50:32.760 --> 0:50:37.040 there just watching DGM trucks bring dozens of people to 0:50:37.120 --> 0:50:40.839 the border, then watched as sysfront guards herded them out 0:50:40.880 --> 0:50:42.080 of the Dominican Republic. 0:50:42.520 --> 0:50:44.120 Jesus, Yeah, it was. 0:50:44.280 --> 0:50:49.640 Incredibly inhumane and heartbreaking. I remember taking this picture of 0:50:49.920 --> 0:50:52.600 a little girl with a suitcase who was just and 0:50:52.680 --> 0:50:56.040 this wasn't a person being deported by the drugs, but 0:50:56.120 --> 0:50:59.239 this was a Haitian person who was leaving. Of a 0:50:59.239 --> 0:51:02.120 little girl just waiting for her dad with a suitcase. 0:51:02.280 --> 0:51:06.919 Jesus out of that. That image really sticks in my mind. Yeah. Yeah, 0:51:06.960 --> 0:51:09.840 So the thing about the border, as I mentioned earlier, 0:51:09.880 --> 0:51:12.439 even if it seems to be incredibly hard, it's still 0:51:12.520 --> 0:51:15.919 pourus in several places. When I was in the bateyas 0:51:15.920 --> 0:51:18.840 in the sugar producing regions, which are the little towns 0:51:18.840 --> 0:51:21.560 that they have or little settlements that they have inside 0:51:21.600 --> 0:51:24.359 of the sugar cane maze, I spoke to someone who 0:51:24.360 --> 0:51:28.560 had been detained outside of the sugar cane areas without 0:51:28.600 --> 0:51:31.799 their work permit and then deported. His family had to 0:51:31.800 --> 0:51:34.319 pay a buskung essentially what the US would call a 0:51:34.400 --> 0:51:38.640 coyote to bring them back across the border. However, this 0:51:38.760 --> 0:51:42.440 forced him into what's essentially debt bondage to the buskung 0:51:42.800 --> 0:51:46.640 because the worker couldn't really pay because of the sugar 0:51:46.640 --> 0:51:49.440 plantations pay a pittance, so they were essentially in a 0:51:49.880 --> 0:51:52.880 recursive cycle of some part of my money has to 0:51:52.920 --> 0:51:57.440 go to the buskung and then whatever's left has to 0:51:57.440 --> 0:52:00.160 go to paying for my family and my needs, and 0:52:00.320 --> 0:52:03.839 it was never enough. Sadly. Yeah. So, one of the 0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:06.440 news videos that I watched as part of research for 0:52:06.520 --> 0:52:09.239 this was a PBS like a seven minute clip where 0:52:09.239 --> 0:52:11.600 they talked to a Haitian man as they were being 0:52:11.640 --> 0:52:14.359 deported along the border, and when they went to talk 0:52:14.400 --> 0:52:16.839 to the guy's family the next day, the guy who 0:52:16.920 --> 0:52:19.840 had been deported was there because he crossed the border 0:52:19.880 --> 0:52:23.680 through the river overnight, and you can hear the astonishment 0:52:23.760 --> 0:52:26.560 in the narrator's voice, even though that script reading was 0:52:26.560 --> 0:52:30.919 probably weeks later. And it's just an example of how 0:52:30.960 --> 0:52:34.680 these borders are more porous than the state wants them 0:52:34.719 --> 0:52:38.480 to be and wants them to appear to be. So 0:52:38.719 --> 0:52:42.520 I wanted to start finishing off by mentioning that the 0:52:42.560 --> 0:52:46.600 Dominican government is now actively collaborating with the Trump administration's 0:52:46.680 --> 0:52:51.799 deportation campaign by agreeing to accept for country deporties from 0:52:51.800 --> 0:52:56.040 the US under the initiative. This agreement, as I hope 0:52:56.080 --> 0:52:58.520 I've shown throughout the course of this episode, is another 0:52:59.160 --> 0:53:02.080 action in a line line of collaboration between the dr 0:53:02.160 --> 0:53:06.440 and the US when it comes to immigration enforcement. Noticeably, 0:53:06.600 --> 0:53:10.400 the agreement leaves out Haitian nationals, and the US is 0:53:10.440 --> 0:53:13.200 supposed to provide funding to ensure that these deportees have 0:53:13.200 --> 0:53:17.000 a quote unquote adequate conditions per the Global Detention Project, 0:53:17.040 --> 0:53:20.200 which really remains to be seen if that's the case. 0:53:20.239 --> 0:53:23.760 But if the conditions in the current immigration detention centers 0:53:23.760 --> 0:53:26.640 are anything to go by, I'm really not holding out 0:53:26.640 --> 0:53:31.040 hope that they're adequate conditions. So before I finished the episode, 0:53:31.080 --> 0:53:34.319 I want to return to Hulletts stuff in Haina, a 0:53:34.400 --> 0:53:38.760 facility systematically created with a deep racism towards the Haitian 0:53:38.800 --> 0:53:41.200 migrants who make up the vast majority of the people 0:53:41.280 --> 0:53:44.440 detained there. Hallet was killed by a system that the 0:53:44.520 --> 0:53:48.200 United States helped create and then shaped. The probability that 0:53:48.239 --> 0:53:51.160 the DGM agents who were at Haina at the time 0:53:51.239 --> 0:53:54.399 that Hullet died, the probability that they were trained by 0:53:54.480 --> 0:53:59.080 US officials is not zero. And right now we're seeing 0:53:59.120 --> 0:54:02.000 the immigration sets that the US helped train outside of 0:54:02.040 --> 0:54:05.799 the country boomerang back towards US. What I thought was 0:54:05.920 --> 0:54:08.439 only a thing of the Dominican Republic, where you have 0:54:08.560 --> 0:54:14.720 a kind of paramilitary style immigration force raiding everyone insight 0:54:14.960 --> 0:54:18.600 and you know, kind of systematically terrorizing and population has 0:54:18.640 --> 0:54:24.000 now become a common reality for millions of people inside 0:54:24.040 --> 0:54:24.600 of the US. 0:54:24.840 --> 0:54:25.320 Yeah. 0:54:25.480 --> 0:54:27.480 I hope that we live long enough to see these 0:54:27.520 --> 0:54:28.960 border walls become ruins. 0:54:29.400 --> 0:54:29.760 Yeah. 0:54:29.920 --> 0:54:30.560 Yeah, me too. 0:54:31.040 --> 0:54:33.080 I often thought like it would be a good book project, 0:54:33.239 --> 0:54:35.960 just got to look at border walls. Absolutely, I just 0:54:36.000 --> 0:54:38.560 don't particularly want to do it. Fucking suck. That's a 0:54:38.640 --> 0:54:41.920 human experience. But yeah, like, if you've lived in the 0:54:42.040 --> 0:54:45.160 US in the last twenty years, you've paid for border 0:54:45.200 --> 0:54:48.239 walls and border violence all over the world, and in 0:54:48.320 --> 0:54:50.640 Europe to be fair, like the e the EU it 0:54:50.680 --> 0:54:53.040 does this too, Right, if you've lived in the global North, 0:54:53.640 --> 0:54:55.680 you probably have a hand in the death of migrants 0:54:56.000 --> 0:54:58.840 just through paying your taxes, and that fucking sucks. It 0:54:58.880 --> 0:55:03.399 shouldn't be that way. Absolutely, Yeah, it's tragic. I want 0:55:03.400 --> 0:55:05.520 to thank the person who reached out to us to 0:55:05.600 --> 0:55:08.320 share this story with us as well, because, like I 0:55:08.360 --> 0:55:10.879 wouldn't have been aware of it otherwise, there's so much 0:55:11.840 --> 0:55:15.400 horrible shit happening in the immigration system that you know, 0:55:15.480 --> 0:55:16.240 we miss things. 0:55:16.480 --> 0:55:19.200 Yeah, So thank you for doing that, absolutely, thank you. 0:55:20.440 --> 0:55:22.200 Yeah, thank you for sharing that with us. It's a 0:55:22.760 --> 0:55:24.960 it's a long time. I used to used to ride 0:55:25.000 --> 0:55:27.160 my bicycle around the Dominican Republic a lot when I 0:55:27.200 --> 0:55:29.360 was there, and there it was always nice to go 0:55:29.400 --> 0:55:32.920 out to those areas, get get out of the Santa 0:55:32.920 --> 0:55:35.480 Domingo and like, let's see how folks live in these 0:55:35.560 --> 0:55:37.799 rural areas. But then also to be reminded of how 0:55:37.840 --> 0:55:41.879 two tiered rural existence was, especially for people like you say, 0:55:41.960 --> 0:55:44.840 Clent and Caine, Like it's it's a brutal way to 0:55:44.840 --> 0:55:49.560 make a living too, like hard backbreaking work under the 0:55:49.560 --> 0:55:53.399 hot sun, like a machete, Like swinging a machete all day, 0:55:53.480 --> 0:55:55.320 Like you can fuck yourself up pretty easily. 0:55:55.760 --> 0:55:59.160 Yeah, they'll do this for like between ten to fourteen 0:55:59.200 --> 0:56:02.560 hours a day. Day after they you know, it's just 0:56:02.920 --> 0:56:06.160 them and sometimes a big hat and some clothes to 0:56:06.200 --> 0:56:08.239 protect them from the sun and a little bit of water. 0:56:08.360 --> 0:56:13.359 But yeah, it's like backbreaking labor that they're they're working on. 0:56:13.520 --> 0:56:17.640 And you know, historically there was a movement of Haitian 0:56:17.800 --> 0:56:20.839 labors from the Haiti to the dr who would come 0:56:21.000 --> 0:56:23.839 for the sapa, which is the sugar cane cutting season. Yeah, 0:56:24.040 --> 0:56:26.200 and then they would leave after about six months. But 0:56:26.520 --> 0:56:30.320 as the border hardened, those people had to make decision 0:56:30.360 --> 0:56:32.919 whether they stayed in Haiti or stayed in the place 0:56:32.960 --> 0:56:35.239 where they could get work. And a lot of them 0:56:35.360 --> 0:56:37.480 decided that they had to stay in the places where 0:56:37.480 --> 0:56:38.160 they could get work. 0:56:38.480 --> 0:56:41.120 Yeah, much the same as it is in the United States, right, 0:56:41.200 --> 0:56:43.279 like got of seasoned agricultural labor is what he did, 0:56:43.320 --> 0:56:45.799 the same, of course, Yeah, but it might be kind 0:56:45.800 --> 0:56:47.400 of that guy you're saying, you look pot back the 0:56:47.440 --> 0:56:50.640 next day over the river. Reminded me of that Woody 0:56:50.680 --> 0:56:54.880 Guthrie song where he's talking about the the Los Gatos 0:56:54.880 --> 0:56:57.799 Canyon plane crash and how all those people had Many 0:56:57.840 --> 0:57:01.120 of those people had traveled multiple time times from their 0:57:01.120 --> 0:57:04.640 homes in Mexico to the US whenever there was an 0:57:04.719 --> 0:57:07.719 expense so they couldn't cover with like whatever they could 0:57:07.719 --> 0:57:10.480 sell from their estantia. Right, they would come come across 0:57:10.520 --> 0:57:13.000 in labor, or young people come across in labor in 0:57:13.040 --> 0:57:17.120 order to establish themselves in life, and then go back 0:57:17.160 --> 0:57:19.960 and then if they needed they had to expend their children. 0:57:20.320 --> 0:57:22.240 Whether they would come back in labor some more or 0:57:22.240 --> 0:57:24.000 some people would just come back in labor every year 0:57:24.080 --> 0:57:27.000 and then one time on the way back. They're plane 0:57:27.000 --> 0:57:30.520 crashed and they all died. Like it's uh, yeah, it's 0:57:30.880 --> 0:57:35.360 so much needless suffering that happens because of borders. It's 0:57:35.600 --> 0:57:37.800 rough to think about people in those detention centers like 0:57:37.840 --> 0:57:39.960 that always kind of makes me sad. Yeah, having spent 0:57:40.000 --> 0:57:42.800 a lot of time around them, it's pretty fucking miserable 0:57:42.800 --> 0:57:43.080 in there. 0:57:43.600 --> 0:57:47.720 Yeah, yeah, especially like for me. You know, I became 0:57:47.760 --> 0:57:51.120 a Dominican citizen in twenty twenty four after I had 0:57:51.120 --> 0:57:53.280 been there, and I always think about, you know, I 0:57:53.320 --> 0:57:56.560 was seeing these people, some of which they had spent 0:57:56.600 --> 0:58:00.040 their entire lives in the American Republic and knew nothing 0:58:00.080 --> 0:58:03.320 else outside of it, but they were stateless because of 0:58:03.360 --> 0:58:06.240 this this twenty thirteen decision, right, And I was thinking, 0:58:06.280 --> 0:58:09.080 you know, they've spent their whole lives here, and I 0:58:09.280 --> 0:58:12.080 have more of a right to citizenship than them, just 0:58:12.120 --> 0:58:15.280 because my mom was born there and then left when 0:58:15.280 --> 0:58:17.560 she was a small child. Like to me, I don't know, 0:58:17.600 --> 0:58:21.480 it was an extremely bleak, bleak thing to realize just 0:58:21.600 --> 0:58:26.280 how how the state prefers some people under it and 0:58:26.320 --> 0:58:30.200 then others not. You know, it was, yeah, I always think, like, 0:58:30.360 --> 0:58:32.280 you know, this is this is a person who is 0:58:32.480 --> 0:58:37.760 a Dominican, like this is so so like culturally more 0:58:37.840 --> 0:58:40.320 Dominican than I could ever be. But I'm the one 0:58:40.400 --> 0:58:42.600 who legally is entitled to citizenship. 0:58:42.680 --> 0:58:45.400 Yeah yeah, I used think about that a lot more 0:58:45.440 --> 0:58:47.840 like I would go there and like we'd try and 0:58:47.960 --> 0:58:51.040 have Haitian folks come over to join us. The time, 0:58:51.080 --> 0:58:54.240 I always said, helping with some diabetes education, no properly 0:58:54.400 --> 0:58:57.720 diabetes education for folks there. And how much harder it 0:58:57.840 --> 0:59:01.480 was for the Haitian folks, even if they in some 0:59:01.520 --> 0:59:04.200 cases that they had family who were there, they had 0:59:04.200 --> 0:59:07.560 spent most of their lives there, like like for them, 0:59:07.640 --> 0:59:09.920 it was so much harder than it was for me, who, like, 0:59:10.640 --> 0:59:12.800 you know, I'm just a guy from Britain, like, like, 0:59:12.840 --> 0:59:15.080 I have no stake in this at all, but I 0:59:15.080 --> 0:59:17.720 could you know, no one batted Nilid when you fly 0:59:17.800 --> 0:59:20.120 into the airport there and come on through that you 0:59:20.120 --> 0:59:21.120 don't even need a visa. 0:59:22.000 --> 0:59:25.040 Yeah yeah, I also think like, and this might be 0:59:25.200 --> 0:59:28.480 getting too too into the weeds, but my great great 0:59:28.520 --> 0:59:32.920 grandparents had to leave Spain because of the monarchy, and 0:59:32.960 --> 0:59:36.360 they were part of the people who were or we 0:59:36.640 --> 0:59:38.800 or my family falls into part of the people who 0:59:39.080 --> 0:59:42.040 get citizenship through the le memory Storica. 0:59:42.400 --> 0:59:44.200 Oh well, okay, yeah, I've. 0:59:44.080 --> 0:59:46.760 Seen videos of so many videos and read so much 0:59:46.760 --> 0:59:51.600 about migrants trying desperately to reach Europe, and that to 0:59:51.720 --> 0:59:54.600 me is like, you know, I get to legally become 0:59:54.600 --> 0:59:58.240 a citizen because some guy that I've never met had 0:59:58.240 --> 1:00:02.720 to leave Spain, And I'm just like, this is crazy, 1:00:02.760 --> 1:00:04.240 Like I wish I could just pass it on to 1:00:04.520 --> 1:00:08.040 somebody else, because I you know, they need it, and 1:00:08.160 --> 1:00:10.000 you know, some people who've lived there in their entire 1:00:10.440 --> 1:00:13.160 lives deserve it like much more than I ever could, right. 1:00:13.760 --> 1:00:17.080 Yeah, right, it's such a strange lottery that gives you 1:00:17.120 --> 1:00:19.800 the right to, yeah, to go there, beside their work 1:00:19.800 --> 1:00:22.040 there whatever, And someone who deeply wants to and whose 1:00:22.120 --> 1:00:25.360 life will be in danger if they weren't able to, 1:00:25.880 --> 1:00:30.600 who might die trying to, can't have it, and they're 1:00:30.640 --> 1:00:32.720 very determined to keep it from them, Like it's such 1:00:32.760 --> 1:00:35.920 a stupid hierarchy or however they want to put it, 1:00:35.960 --> 1:00:39.200 like system. But yeah, unfortunately, it happens all over the 1:00:39.280 --> 1:00:43.640 world and it's only getting worse. Right, Like, as we're 1:00:43.640 --> 1:00:48.520 recording this, people in Belfast are fucking attacking people who specifically, 1:00:48.520 --> 1:00:50.560 I guess, like I spoke to some people in Belfast 1:00:50.600 --> 1:00:52.560 today and they were like, yeah, it's not all of us. 1:00:52.600 --> 1:00:54.840 It's a small group of loyalists who are very, very 1:00:55.000 --> 1:00:57.480 racist and have been for a very long time. Yeah, 1:00:57.520 --> 1:01:02.160 but nonetheless, right, like a there's a crime think sticker 1:01:02.320 --> 1:01:04.040 that I think of a lot that says the border 1:01:04.080 --> 1:01:08.160 doesn't protect you, it controls you. And like maybe Americans 1:01:08.160 --> 1:01:10.800 are realizing that now that border patrol and murdering US 1:01:10.880 --> 1:01:14.080 citizens in US cities. You know, I said this the 1:01:14.120 --> 1:01:17.240 other day, and we're talking about Gregory Bavino, Like there 1:01:17.320 --> 1:01:21.120 is no reforming this shit. Like the nature of what 1:01:21.160 --> 1:01:24.320 we have done for decades with borders is that it 1:01:24.400 --> 1:01:28.680 kills people who did nothing wrong. And if we want 1:01:28.680 --> 1:01:30.800 to get away from the place where at now when 1:01:30.840 --> 1:01:33.640 this shit needs to be torn down, all of it. 1:01:34.080 --> 1:01:37.040 The way they're building border wall now, it's very clearly 1:01:37.360 --> 1:01:40.160 with the understanding that they just need to build as 1:01:40.240 --> 1:01:43.520 much as possible because no administration will ever tear it down. Absolutely, 1:01:43.640 --> 1:01:45.320 That's what they did in the first truanp administration too. 1:01:45.440 --> 1:01:48.080 They literally skip the hard parts. I remember being out 1:01:48.080 --> 1:01:52.480 there in late twenty twenty, even after August, September, October, November, December, 1:01:52.520 --> 1:01:55.680 and they're like skipping the difficult helly bits just just 1:01:55.680 --> 1:01:58.520 to put more miles of wall in. And like they're 1:01:58.520 --> 1:02:00.800 building now. They're kind of fellings those gaps and just 1:02:00.800 --> 1:02:02.600 building wall in places where we never thought they would 1:02:02.640 --> 1:02:05.480 because they have fun, limited money, and like they're doing 1:02:05.520 --> 1:02:08.840 it because they were right in twenty twenty, right, Biden 1:02:08.880 --> 1:02:12.000 didn't tear it down. In fact, he repaired and maintained 1:02:12.040 --> 1:02:14.920 and continued to build it. Like we need to really 1:02:14.960 --> 1:02:18.840 think about rolling this shit back if we ever want 1:02:19.000 --> 1:02:20.720 to make sure that this can't happen again. 1:02:21.480 --> 1:02:24.240 Yeah, absolutely, the depths of the mechanism have to be 1:02:24.720 --> 1:02:29.640 destroyed because, like you said, there's there's no reforming it. 1:02:29.800 --> 1:02:34.320 And I specifically use like kind of mechanism or machine 1:02:34.360 --> 1:02:38.280 to describe it, right, because even if you think that 1:02:38.400 --> 1:02:42.200 the only thing it applies to is you know, immigration 1:02:42.400 --> 1:02:47.120 enforcement in the US and seeing ICE and CBP, you know, 1:02:47.240 --> 1:02:50.840 terrorizing the streets. Like I hope I have evidenced in 1:02:50.840 --> 1:02:54.680 the episode, this is this is a global project. Yeah, 1:02:54.720 --> 1:02:58.800 they're not only doing immigration enforcement in the US, They're 1:02:58.880 --> 1:03:03.760 helping and sometimes do it immigration enforcement outside in you know, 1:03:03.840 --> 1:03:05.640 if they could, they would probably go to every country 1:03:05.680 --> 1:03:07.320 on Earth and be like, hey, this is how you 1:03:07.920 --> 1:03:11.439 hearden your borders and do immigration enforcement. Yeah. 1:03:11.600 --> 1:03:14.120 Yeah, it's just say it's a part of colonialism. It's 1:03:14.160 --> 1:03:17.520 spreading our violence around the world. Well, thank you for 1:03:17.560 --> 1:03:19.960 sharing that story with us. Where can people find you 1:03:20.080 --> 1:03:23.240 they want to read more of your work? Follow you online. 1:03:23.760 --> 1:03:29.000 I'm at baco to xl V a q u e 1:03:29.240 --> 1:03:32.919 r O two XL on all social media, and I'm 1:03:32.960 --> 1:03:37.080 also actually working on a series of many documentaries about 1:03:37.160 --> 1:03:41.720 immigrant communities in Puerto Rico for a local website here 1:03:41.720 --> 1:03:44.680 called Miami Jonas, and I am an editor at the 1:03:44.800 --> 1:03:47.600 Latino Newsletter, where I have been reporting a lot of 1:03:47.840 --> 1:03:51.320 immigration enforcement here in Puerto Rico. Yeah, thank you, James, 1:03:51.320 --> 1:03:52.920 thank you for thank you for sharing it with us. 1:03:52.960 --> 1:03:54.920 We'll look forward to doing for you against hun. 1:04:07.880 --> 1:04:11.800 With scenes of the genocide and Palestine plastering or screens 1:04:11.840 --> 1:04:15.720 over the past few years and increasing analysis of the settler, 1:04:15.800 --> 1:04:20.560 colonial and supremacist route of Israel's violence, it's having thinking 1:04:20.600 --> 1:04:24.560 more about the concept of settler colonialism. Many people know 1:04:24.720 --> 1:04:28.640 now about Israel's settler colonial past and it's parallels with 1:04:28.680 --> 1:04:33.280 the US Australia, South Africa, and Canada. Those are common comparisons, 1:04:34.200 --> 1:04:37.720 but few know much about the settler colonial origins of Liberia, 1:04:38.160 --> 1:04:41.200 which has gained a little attention as people have begun 1:04:41.320 --> 1:04:44.320 learning more about the concept. So I'd like to take 1:04:44.360 --> 1:04:49.200 a look at Liberia, Israel and the parallels of settler colonialism. 1:04:49.560 --> 1:04:52.640 This is it can happen here. I'm Andrew Sage Andrewism 1:04:52.640 --> 1:04:55.240 on YouTube, and I'm joined once again. 1:04:55.280 --> 1:04:58.200 By James Again. I'm excited to learn about this. 1:04:59.040 --> 1:05:02.920 Yeah, I'm mainly looking ato parallels through the lens of 1:05:02.960 --> 1:05:07.640 analysis provided by historian Patrick Wolfe in his famous article 1:05:07.880 --> 1:05:12.400 Settler Colonialism and the Elimination of the Nature, with other 1:05:12.520 --> 1:05:17.360 historical resources and articles linked in the show notes pulls off. 1:05:17.600 --> 1:05:21.120 Before we start making comparisons, I'll need to introduce the 1:05:21.240 --> 1:05:26.880 concept for those unfamiliar. Settler colonialism is, in one sentence, 1:05:27.160 --> 1:05:33.160 an ongoing structural process where outsiders permanently occupy indigenous lands 1:05:33.360 --> 1:05:38.080 to build new societies. Wolf notes that invasion is a structure, 1:05:38.640 --> 1:05:43.720 not an event. He calls setler colonialism inherently eliminatory but 1:05:43.840 --> 1:05:48.920 not invariably genocidal, and calls elimination an organizing principle of 1:05:48.960 --> 1:05:53.440 setler colonial society rather than a one off occurrence, Unlike 1:05:53.480 --> 1:05:57.400 the kind of exploitation colonialism, which seeks to extract resources 1:05:57.480 --> 1:06:02.560 and leave settlers come to state to claim land. As 1:06:02.600 --> 1:06:05.600 Wolf quotes, the we bird rose to get in the 1:06:05.640 --> 1:06:08.920 way of settler colonization. All the native has to do 1:06:09.200 --> 1:06:13.200 is stay at home. Settlers tell various stories to justify 1:06:13.320 --> 1:06:20.000 their eliminatory ambitions race, religion, ethnicity, civilization status, but it 1:06:20.040 --> 1:06:23.760 really comes down to territory. Settlers want to establish lastin 1:06:23.960 --> 1:06:28.280 autonomous communities by eliminating the existing indigenous way of life 1:06:28.600 --> 1:06:32.840 and replacing it with the colonizers culture, economy, and political order. 1:06:33.520 --> 1:06:38.480 Wolf says that settler communism destroys to replace point into 1:06:38.480 --> 1:06:41.720 the quite visceral example of Israeli settlers of root in 1:06:41.880 --> 1:06:45.400 ancient olive trees and replacing them with foreign fruit trees, 1:06:46.360 --> 1:06:51.439 or as Israel often euphromizes it, making the desert bloom. 1:06:51.680 --> 1:06:56.480 Elimination doesn't have to mean the wholesale slaughter of indigenous people, 1:06:56.960 --> 1:07:01.120 though frontier homicide tends to be a trend, but elimination 1:07:01.320 --> 1:07:04.240 seeks to dissolve indigenous people and their way of life 1:07:04.240 --> 1:07:11.440 through various means expulsion, encouraged population mixing and forced assimilation, enclosure, 1:07:12.040 --> 1:07:17.920 child abduction, missions and board in schools, religious conversion, marginalization, 1:07:18.480 --> 1:07:24.800 labor exploitation, and more often several at once. Settler clunalism 1:07:24.960 --> 1:07:28.280 tends to remain deeply embedded in the laws and institutions 1:07:28.320 --> 1:07:31.040 of the countries foundly that way. But Woth points to 1:07:31.080 --> 1:07:34.200 a curious side effect of settler clunalism, which is the 1:07:34.240 --> 1:07:38.440 way that settler society subsequently attempts to recuperate indigenity in 1:07:38.520 --> 1:07:41.640 order to express its independence from the mother country. He 1:07:41.760 --> 1:07:48.840 references Australia's incorporation of indigenous symbolism for one example. Australia, Canada, 1:07:48.960 --> 1:07:54.200 the US, New Zealand, South Africa, French, Algeria, Rhodesia, Liberia, 1:07:54.240 --> 1:07:58.680 and Israel are all examples of contemporary or historical settler 1:07:58.760 --> 1:08:02.720 colonial societies, but I'm focused on the parallels between just 1:08:02.840 --> 1:08:07.640 two of them, Liberia and Israel. In eighteen eighteen, the 1:08:07.680 --> 1:08:11.440 American Colonization Society scouted what was then known as the 1:08:11.520 --> 1:08:15.120 Grain Coast and deemed it a suitable location for their 1:08:15.160 --> 1:08:18.639 planned African colony, meant to be a home for formerly 1:08:18.720 --> 1:08:21.840 enslaved people in the US foreign emancipation as well as 1:08:21.880 --> 1:08:25.920 free black people that already existed in the territory. The 1:08:25.960 --> 1:08:30.080 first successful settlement was established in eighteen twenty two after 1:08:30.080 --> 1:08:32.519 an agreement with the local chiefs signed in eighteen twenty 1:08:32.560 --> 1:08:37.400 one granted the society possession of Cape Mesurado. Now, some 1:08:37.600 --> 1:08:41.679 free black Americans had advocated returned to Africa projects long 1:08:41.720 --> 1:08:45.599 before the ACS was even founded, so we shouldn't erase 1:08:45.800 --> 1:08:49.080 the agency in this. But the ACS was led by 1:08:49.200 --> 1:08:53.040 a mix of white abolitionists and white and slavers who 1:08:53.080 --> 1:08:56.040 mostly just wanted to rid themselves the free black population 1:08:56.240 --> 1:09:00.920 in the US. Most free black Americans opposed project, either 1:09:00.960 --> 1:09:04.800 initially or in time. Those Black Americans that did participate 1:09:05.120 --> 1:09:09.080 came to be known as Americo Liberians. They carried on 1:09:09.120 --> 1:09:13.440 the American Colonization Society's narrative that the establishment of Liberia 1:09:13.640 --> 1:09:16.560 was a return to the promised Land and exodus, a 1:09:16.680 --> 1:09:20.479 formally enslaved people return into the ancestral homeland to establish 1:09:20.560 --> 1:09:24.040 an independent land of freedom, and as a minority in 1:09:24.080 --> 1:09:27.600 that land, the American Liberians would establish a government and 1:09:27.720 --> 1:09:31.360 various settlements they ruled that would attempt to expand Liberia's 1:09:31.400 --> 1:09:36.320 initial territory and to bring civilization and Christianity to the natives. 1:09:37.280 --> 1:09:41.080 Those that went were clearly heavily influenced by their American background, 1:09:41.600 --> 1:09:46.200 viewing themselves culturally, socially, and educationally superior to the Native 1:09:46.280 --> 1:09:49.840 African ethnic groups they encountered. After a few decades of 1:09:49.880 --> 1:09:54.120 support from the American colonization Society, independence was declared in 1:09:54.200 --> 1:09:57.559 eighteen forty seven, but only recognized by the US in 1:09:57.600 --> 1:10:02.400 eighteen sixty two, so very quickly fell into a deteriorating 1:10:02.479 --> 1:10:07.760 economic situation marked by heavy foreign deck obligations culminating in 1:10:07.880 --> 1:10:12.000 multinational intervention and oversight in the early nineteen hundreds, as 1:10:12.040 --> 1:10:15.360 well as the establishment of a million eco rubber plantation 1:10:15.960 --> 1:10:19.679 for the Firestone Tire and Rubber Company, which would exploit 1:10:19.720 --> 1:10:22.720 the indigenous people in Liberia for decades to come. 1:10:23.720 --> 1:10:26.240 Any time is setting up a rubber plantation, I feel 1:10:26.240 --> 1:10:29.120 like that should be a massive red flag that you're 1:10:29.160 --> 1:10:30.480 one of the bad guys. 1:10:31.000 --> 1:10:32.519 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 1:10:33.280 --> 1:10:36.160 People who have been subject to settle a colonial violence 1:10:36.280 --> 1:10:39.800 and to like racially motivated sound like a cop, and 1:10:39.840 --> 1:10:42.639 I say racially motivated violence like the violence to inherent 1:10:42.680 --> 1:10:46.200 and racism and capitalism. The idea that the way to 1:10:46.320 --> 1:10:49.559 kind of right those wrongs is to become the one 1:10:49.680 --> 1:10:52.720 doing the violence, not the one subject to the violence. 1:10:53.400 --> 1:10:55.840 It's see in the Anmar, right like, a country that 1:10:56.080 --> 1:10:59.479 was brutally colonized by the country that I was born in, 1:11:00.080 --> 1:11:05.360 but in which essentially today the state of Myanma is 1:11:05.360 --> 1:11:06.759 it's self a colonial entity. 1:11:06.880 --> 1:11:07.000 Right. 1:11:07.040 --> 1:11:10.280 We have a number of different ethnic groups, dozens of 1:11:10.320 --> 1:11:13.639 ethnic groups within Meanma, and we have one ethnic group 1:11:13.800 --> 1:11:16.759 which is dominated governance, and which has dominated the military, 1:11:17.040 --> 1:11:18.960 and which has used the tool of the state to 1:11:19.040 --> 1:11:24.559 extract resources, labor, human bodies from the other ethnic groups, 1:11:24.640 --> 1:11:27.640 right Like, because they've gone from being colonized to effectively 1:11:27.680 --> 1:11:31.840 being like a contiguous empire, and they've adopted the logic 1:11:31.880 --> 1:11:33.280 of the colonizer in doing so. 1:11:34.120 --> 1:11:34.400 Yeah. 1:11:34.680 --> 1:11:38.200 Unfortunately, this is a very common phenomenon. 1:11:38.479 --> 1:11:38.720 You know. 1:11:39.320 --> 1:11:44.920 This is why I tend to view nationalism, even so 1:11:45.000 --> 1:11:53.960 called Third world nationalisms, as dead ends, as explicitly counter revolutionary, 1:11:54.040 --> 1:11:55.880 as against the liberation. 1:11:55.479 --> 1:11:56.120 Of all people. 1:11:56.600 --> 1:12:01.040 Yeah, because that construction of the nationisted really of states 1:12:01.080 --> 1:12:05.639 in general, tends to come with the establishment of certain 1:12:06.200 --> 1:12:12.320 superiors and inferiors, you know, subordinates and rulers. Yeah, and 1:12:12.840 --> 1:12:17.679 the privilege in of certain religions, ethnic groups, skin tones, 1:12:17.720 --> 1:12:22.640 whatever the case may be. Even within so called ethnically 1:12:22.640 --> 1:12:25.120 homogeneous societies. 1:12:24.840 --> 1:12:26.200 Yeah, you can even. 1:12:26.000 --> 1:12:30.240 Look at Japan, right, which is sulted by you know, 1:12:30.400 --> 1:12:35.040 supremacists of all flavors as an ethnically homogenous society. Even 1:12:35.080 --> 1:12:39.360 within that society there's you know, colorism, and there's also 1:12:39.479 --> 1:12:45.920 the exploitation and marginalization of certain groups within that territory, 1:12:46.280 --> 1:12:47.080 such as the I knew. 1:12:48.040 --> 1:13:03.320 Yeah, I think about like nationalism, and there was a 1:13:03.400 --> 1:13:05.360 time when there was a movement to try and use 1:13:05.479 --> 1:13:09.519 nationalism as a positive thing, the have a brotherhood of nations, right, 1:13:09.800 --> 1:13:13.479 It existed within catal anti fascism in the nineteen thirties, 1:13:13.520 --> 1:13:15.360 like we are a nation which has been suppressed by 1:13:15.400 --> 1:13:18.719 the state, so we will build a nationalism that doesn't 1:13:19.000 --> 1:13:19.840 suppress people. 1:13:19.920 --> 1:13:20.080 Right. 1:13:20.479 --> 1:13:22.680 It's sort the same thing with Kurdish people, right, with 1:13:22.720 --> 1:13:26.200 the Kurdish Freedom movement. Their understanding, i would say, was 1:13:26.439 --> 1:13:29.080 more advanced than the Catalans, and that like their their 1:13:29.160 --> 1:13:31.000 analysis was what we are a nation that has been 1:13:31.000 --> 1:13:35.080 suppressed by multiple states, and therefore we will build society 1:13:35.120 --> 1:13:38.559 without the state in order to link create well where 1:13:38.560 --> 1:13:40.639 there is no boots, so you can't tread on people, right. 1:13:41.160 --> 1:13:45.000 I still believe that that is possible, but like in 1:13:45.040 --> 1:13:49.800 the last six months, you know, I've seen people back 1:13:49.840 --> 1:13:53.400 away from that within Kurdistan, right and start talking again 1:13:53.479 --> 1:13:56.680 about the Brotherhood. People's was a mistake. They feel betrayed. 1:13:57.640 --> 1:13:59.680 I don't think those people would consider themselves to be 1:13:59.720 --> 1:14:03.840 super but they feel that their project didn't work. That 1:14:03.960 --> 1:14:07.320 really makes me sad. Ultimately, the Brotherhood of Nations like 1:14:07.439 --> 1:14:11.280 didn't succeed in Syria, right, and we've seen it effectively 1:14:11.320 --> 1:14:14.120 at like Sirious Dog or the Syrian Arab Republic after 1:14:14.640 --> 1:14:17.400 hundreds of thousands of people gave their lives for it 1:14:17.439 --> 1:14:21.400 to be a place where everyone could be free. And yeah, 1:14:21.600 --> 1:14:25.760 it really saddens me to see that that, like, like 1:14:25.800 --> 1:14:28.839 I really hoped for something better, this idea of Brotherhood 1:14:28.840 --> 1:14:31.760 of Nations, which acknowledges people's difference, but it doesn't create 1:14:31.760 --> 1:14:36.160 a hierarchy. But we're not. We haven't made it quite 1:14:36.240 --> 1:14:38.640 work yet, I guess. And because we live in a 1:14:38.680 --> 1:14:43.439 world right where they appeal to nationalism and bigotry and 1:14:43.520 --> 1:14:46.000 the idea, like specifically in Syria, I think that like 1:14:46.080 --> 1:14:50.439 Arabs should not be equal to Kurds was appealing. Through 1:14:50.479 --> 1:14:54.920 making that appeal, this project was able to be sabotaged. 1:14:54.960 --> 1:14:59.879 I guess now, I think that while we're still fortunate 1:15:01.080 --> 1:15:04.439 different approaches to liberation, trying to figure out what that 1:15:04.520 --> 1:15:08.920 looks like, we've seen the truck record of nationalism, is 1:15:08.920 --> 1:15:09.360 my point. 1:15:09.840 --> 1:15:13.000 Yeah, yeah, no, I think it's fair like it's it's 1:15:13.040 --> 1:15:15.880 been used much more as a force for dividing us, 1:15:15.920 --> 1:15:18.120 in making us hate each other, than it has been 1:15:18.160 --> 1:15:20.639 for creating a world where we can all live together 1:15:20.640 --> 1:15:21.519 alongside each other. 1:15:22.400 --> 1:15:27.280 Yeah, this is a digression, but in my experience in Trinidad, 1:15:27.320 --> 1:15:31.360 what I've noticed is that their efforts to kind of construct, 1:15:31.920 --> 1:15:34.720 and they have been since the establishment of Trinidad as 1:15:34.760 --> 1:15:38.920 an independent country Trance Tobago as an independent country in 1:15:39.000 --> 1:15:42.840 nineteen sixty two, first led by doctor Eric Williams, there 1:15:42.840 --> 1:15:47.080 were efforts to kind of build this kind of cross 1:15:47.320 --> 1:15:54.600 racial overarching like Trinidadi and Trindigo Nian identity, which I 1:15:54.680 --> 1:15:57.920 mean I use that to trind Diego in some of 1:15:57.920 --> 1:16:02.120 my work, but Tobago is kind of attached to Trinidad 1:16:02.120 --> 1:16:05.719 against their will. And even now if there are people 1:16:05.760 --> 1:16:10.960 who try to push that trend bag or unity. But 1:16:11.000 --> 1:16:13.599 there are also people who will assert, particularly people from Tobago, 1:16:13.600 --> 1:16:16.800 who will assert that, yeah, no, we want greater autonomy, 1:16:16.880 --> 1:16:21.360 we want even independence from Trinidad. And so for maybe 1:16:21.479 --> 1:16:24.960 certain people unifying purposes that would use the term. But 1:16:25.240 --> 1:16:27.280 I try not to give off that impression that I'm 1:16:27.360 --> 1:16:31.519 using it for kind of unifying nationalism, because I think 1:16:31.720 --> 1:16:35.960 with the nationalism of such a young, quote unquote nation, 1:16:36.280 --> 1:16:39.040 a nation of nations, of various people from all over 1:16:39.080 --> 1:16:42.160 the world, mostly brought here against their will. Yeah, they 1:16:42.200 --> 1:16:47.120 are these competitions I think over the proportionality of the 1:16:47.160 --> 1:16:53.679 representation of different ratio ethnic groups, the competitions over who 1:16:53.720 --> 1:16:57.559 gets to define what this Trinidadian nation is, what it 1:16:57.640 --> 1:17:01.400 means to be a Trinidadian, and efforts to kind of 1:17:02.439 --> 1:17:07.960 balance or imbalance the proportion of representation depending on which 1:17:08.000 --> 1:17:11.800 government is in power. You know, our current government is 1:17:12.439 --> 1:17:16.640 very much oriented toward a kind of Indo Trinardi and 1:17:16.760 --> 1:17:23.679 Indian focus and have in many ways marginalized all other groups, 1:17:24.080 --> 1:17:26.840 maligned all other groups, disrespected all other groups within the 1:17:26.880 --> 1:17:31.200 country to kind of elevate the sense of or get 1:17:31.240 --> 1:17:34.920 back for the Indian people in Trona and I don't 1:17:34.920 --> 1:17:37.680 want to go too much down that road talking about that, 1:17:37.840 --> 1:17:41.040 but it's just another example to me or the frustration 1:17:42.000 --> 1:17:50.200 and misdirection that comes with investment in nationalism, which currently 1:17:50.240 --> 1:17:53.400 holds a monopoly both here and much of the world 1:17:54.160 --> 1:18:00.559 on narratives of liberation and anti colonial resistance. So Ima 1:18:00.560 --> 1:18:05.200 streeted as an anticlonial resistance is synonymous with nationalism. Yeah, 1:18:05.439 --> 1:18:08.240 as though the two cannot be distinguished. 1:18:08.840 --> 1:18:10.960 It should be a relic of the twentieth century, right, 1:18:11.040 --> 1:18:15.120 like it was heavily tied to, like state socialism. 1:18:15.280 --> 1:18:15.400 Right. 1:18:15.439 --> 1:18:19.639 The idea of the way that we fight the wrongs 1:18:19.640 --> 1:18:24.280 of colonialism is through creating post colonial nation states and 1:18:24.439 --> 1:18:28.080 ignoring the fact that many of those states, many of 1:18:28.080 --> 1:18:32.280 the boundaries they find themselves within, include a diverse range 1:18:32.360 --> 1:18:34.800 of identities, like you said, of many people, including those 1:18:35.200 --> 1:18:37.680 against their will to those places, and many of those 1:18:37.720 --> 1:18:39.960 identities don't line up with the national identities, and it 1:18:40.200 --> 1:18:45.080 almost always results in a change of the oppressure rather 1:18:45.120 --> 1:18:46.440 than the absence of oppression. 1:18:46.920 --> 1:18:47.160 Yeah. 1:18:47.240 --> 1:18:49.280 I mean you could literally just look at the entire 1:18:49.439 --> 1:18:55.480 history of independent Nigeria. Yes, the one very clear example 1:18:55.720 --> 1:19:01.400 of that. Yeah, But getting back to the right. I 1:19:01.439 --> 1:19:05.640 don't see an explicitly titled ideology behind the founding of 1:19:05.800 --> 1:19:10.920 Liberia beyond settler colunalism, I suppose, but the implicit ideology 1:19:11.200 --> 1:19:14.479 was the supremacy of the elite American Liberian way of 1:19:14.520 --> 1:19:17.839 life and the right to that territory and the label 1:19:17.920 --> 1:19:21.240 and the resources of its people. While the elite would 1:19:21.240 --> 1:19:26.400 themselves be subordinate to the global catalyst order dictated particularly 1:19:26.560 --> 1:19:30.519 by America and Europe, so the supremacy the American Liberian 1:19:30.640 --> 1:19:34.680 elite did not place them in a position of supremacy 1:19:34.680 --> 1:19:37.360 in the global stage. They were still in a subordinate 1:19:37.680 --> 1:19:43.000 position in some ways. Turning out to Israel. The political 1:19:43.240 --> 1:19:47.519 Zionist movement emerged in the late nineteenth century Europe amid 1:19:47.600 --> 1:19:51.120 programs and a failure to achieve equality for Jews in 1:19:51.160 --> 1:19:56.080 many countries. Its most influential early theorist Theodohood So argue 1:19:56.120 --> 1:20:00.240 that Jews constituted a nation and that anti Semitism could 1:20:00.280 --> 1:20:04.839 not ultimately be solved through integration into European societies. Instead, 1:20:05.000 --> 1:20:08.280 they required a state of their own, and Palestine was 1:20:08.320 --> 1:20:14.120 not initially the only territory under consideration. Various proposals included Argentina, 1:20:14.439 --> 1:20:19.320 Uganda and other locations before Palestine became firmly established as 1:20:19.320 --> 1:20:22.920 the movement's focus. Not all Jews agreed with this political 1:20:23.000 --> 1:20:27.760 Zionist cause that many Jewish socialists, particularly those associated with 1:20:27.800 --> 1:20:32.719 the General Jewish Labor Bund, rejected Zionism altogether. They argued 1:20:33.000 --> 1:20:36.240 the Jews should fight for libration where they lived, rather 1:20:36.240 --> 1:20:41.120 than establishing a separate nation state. Nevertheless, the Zionists colonial 1:20:41.120 --> 1:20:45.479 settlement efforts began and expanded in Palestine through the late 1:20:45.600 --> 1:20:50.840 nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, aided by wealthy benefactors, land 1:20:50.920 --> 1:20:56.400 purchases from absentee landlords, and growing immigration. The movement received 1:20:56.439 --> 1:21:00.000 a major boost in nineteen seventeen when the British government 1:21:00.000 --> 1:21:03.479 and issued the Balfour Declaratia express in support for the 1:21:03.560 --> 1:21:07.120 establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine. Despite the 1:21:07.120 --> 1:21:11.640 fact that Palestine's our population constituted the overwhelming majority of 1:21:11.680 --> 1:21:15.799 the inhabitants at the time, a settlement expanded. Sinus narratives 1:21:15.880 --> 1:21:19.439 increasingly emphasized the idea of return. The Jews were not 1:21:19.520 --> 1:21:23.439 colonizing a foreign land, but return into an ancestral homeland 1:21:23.479 --> 1:21:26.680 from which they had been dispersed centuries before, and The 1:21:26.720 --> 1:21:30.240 state of Israel was officially established in nineteen forty eight, 1:21:30.680 --> 1:21:34.280 accompanied by the Nakba or catastrophe, when more than seven 1:21:34.400 --> 1:21:38.280 hundred thousand Palestinians were displaced or expelled from their homes 1:21:38.280 --> 1:21:42.640 across Palestine. Like Liberia before it, Israel emerged as a 1:21:42.680 --> 1:21:45.920 state founded by a population claiming a historic connection to 1:21:45.920 --> 1:21:49.760 the territory, and like Liberia, is legitimacy would be built 1:21:49.840 --> 1:21:54.280 upon narratives of return, civilization, and nationhood, while the indigenous 1:21:54.320 --> 1:21:58.520 inhabitants found themselves excluded from the political order being constructed 1:21:58.760 --> 1:21:59.919 on top of their home. 1:22:11.040 --> 1:22:11.240 Now. 1:22:11.280 --> 1:22:15.240 Already, these situations aren't exactly one to one, but they 1:22:15.280 --> 1:22:18.280 don't need to be. To apply a settler clonal analysis. 1:22:19.000 --> 1:22:22.200 The key questions for ascertaining settler cloninalism are if the 1:22:22.240 --> 1:22:27.160 settlers established permanent residents, if they claimed political sovereignty, if 1:22:27.160 --> 1:22:33.480 they dominated indigenous populations, if they created institutions that privileged settlers. Basically, 1:22:33.640 --> 1:22:36.719 what was the political and social order that emerged after 1:22:36.720 --> 1:22:39.960 they arrived and who was elevated and degraded by it. 1:22:40.920 --> 1:22:44.240 For Liberia, the answer becomes pretty clear once we look 1:22:44.240 --> 1:22:47.360 at how the new state was organized over the course 1:22:47.400 --> 1:22:51.200 of the nineteenth century America, Liberia and settlements expanded their 1:22:51.280 --> 1:22:55.880 territory through a mixture of purchases, treaties, coercion and military expeditions, 1:22:55.920 --> 1:22:58.760 and outright warfare with inditionous peoples who made up the 1:22:58.800 --> 1:23:03.080 overwhelming majority population, who were largely excluded from political life 1:23:03.880 --> 1:23:08.200 for generations. They lacked meaningful representation in government and were 1:23:08.200 --> 1:23:12.280 treated as subjects to be administered. The elite monopolized state 1:23:12.320 --> 1:23:15.759 institutions and eventually established what was effectively a one party 1:23:15.800 --> 1:23:19.559 state under the True Whig Party, which ruled Liberia for 1:23:19.600 --> 1:23:23.599 over a century. The Liberian state extracted taxes and tribute 1:23:23.600 --> 1:23:27.720 from indigenous communities, relied on indigenous labor, and by the 1:23:27.760 --> 1:23:32.799 early twentieth century, international investigations were uncovering systems of forced 1:23:32.920 --> 1:23:36.960 labor and human trafficking, so surveyor that they generated an 1:23:36.960 --> 1:23:41.439 international scandal. While the settlers themselves had once been victims 1:23:41.439 --> 1:23:45.800 of slavery and racial oppression, they recreated similar class and 1:23:45.840 --> 1:23:50.280 ethnic hierarchies in their state. Liberia, of course, differs from 1:23:50.280 --> 1:23:54.080 many other settler colonies, but they retained the basic framework 1:23:54.120 --> 1:23:58.200 of a settler population clearing sovereignty over territory inhabited by 1:23:58.200 --> 1:24:02.240 indigenous peoples and conscer treating political and economic power in 1:24:02.280 --> 1:24:05.720 its own hands. Now, compare this to Israel. From the 1:24:05.800 --> 1:24:10.400 late nineteenth century onward. Zionist organizations acquired land through purchases 1:24:10.600 --> 1:24:14.160 and violence following the Knappa, which created one of the 1:24:14.280 --> 1:24:18.200 largest refugee populations in the modern world. The Palestinians, which 1:24:18.280 --> 1:24:22.760 remained within Israel, was subjected to military administration for years. 1:24:23.080 --> 1:24:27.080 While Palestinians in the occupied territories continue to live under 1:24:27.080 --> 1:24:31.439 a different legal regime than Israeli settlers. The nineteen fifty 1:24:31.479 --> 1:24:34.519 two Citizenship Law and the twenty eighteen Nation States Law 1:24:34.800 --> 1:24:38.640 cemented the Jewish supremacist heart of the Zinis project. As 1:24:38.640 --> 1:24:42.160 since nineteen sixty seven, settlement expansion in the West Bank 1:24:42.200 --> 1:24:47.600 had steadily increased, accompanied by land seizures, home demolitions, restrictions 1:24:47.640 --> 1:24:52.240 on movement, and the fragmentation of Palestinian communities and Gaza 1:24:52.320 --> 1:24:55.880 has been an open air prison where settlers occasionally mow 1:24:56.120 --> 1:25:01.040 the lawn aka slaughter population since two thousand and seven. 1:25:01.920 --> 1:25:04.519 It's worth noting a major difference between the two cases, 1:25:04.640 --> 1:25:09.360 which is the demographic element. America Liberians remained a small 1:25:09.520 --> 1:25:14.080 minority ruling a much larger indigenous population, but the entire 1:25:14.280 --> 1:25:18.720 history of American Liberian ruled Liberia. Those kind of demographics 1:25:18.800 --> 1:25:23.320 are more akin to settler societies like South Africa, Rhodesia, 1:25:23.360 --> 1:25:28.040 and French Algeria, which leaned heavily into the exploitation aspect 1:25:28.120 --> 1:25:34.200 of clonalism. Israel developed differently intentionally to ensure that Jewish 1:25:34.200 --> 1:25:38.320 people became the demographic and majority within its territory, so 1:25:38.400 --> 1:25:42.200 it's more comparable to settler societies like the US, Canada, 1:25:42.200 --> 1:25:46.840 and Australia. Such demographics necessarily led to a difference in 1:25:46.920 --> 1:25:52.000 how indigenous peoples were managed between projects. Liberia system depended 1:25:52.160 --> 1:25:57.040 upon indigenous labor, while Israel's project has generally prioritized secure 1:25:57.040 --> 1:26:01.519 in land while minimizing dependence on pasted labor. In many 1:26:01.560 --> 1:26:06.320 periods of Zionus history, Palestinian labor was actively displaced in 1:26:06.400 --> 1:26:11.839 favor of exclusively Jewish labor. But again, settler colonism operates 1:26:11.880 --> 1:26:15.080 according to a logic of elimination that might often be 1:26:15.200 --> 1:26:19.880 expulsion and extermination, but it can also mean assimilation, confinement, 1:26:20.080 --> 1:26:24.160 and whatever else. Again, the settlers want the land, the 1:26:24.280 --> 1:26:28.280 native becomes an obstacle, and different set of societies developed 1:26:28.320 --> 1:26:32.479 different methods for dealing with that obstacle. The US had 1:26:32.520 --> 1:26:38.000 its ethnic cleansings, removals, reservation system and boarding schools. Australia 1:26:38.040 --> 1:26:43.280 had frontier wars, stolen generations and land dispossessions. Canada had 1:26:43.320 --> 1:26:47.759 assimilation policies like reservation schools. South Africa and a wide 1:26:47.840 --> 1:26:51.640 rule couldn't expel the black majority, so they maintained apartheid 1:26:52.120 --> 1:26:55.920 controlled reservations and extracted labor. But again, what matters for 1:26:56.000 --> 1:27:00.120 definance at the clonalism is that indigenous sovereignty is displaced 1:27:00.560 --> 1:27:04.360 and settler control over the land is secured. Of course, 1:27:04.640 --> 1:27:07.799 indigenous people in all cases do not take this abuse 1:27:07.960 --> 1:27:11.720 lying down. From the very beginning of Liberian settlement, Indigenous 1:27:11.720 --> 1:27:16.559 peoples resisted the crew grabble vy and numerous other ethnic 1:27:16.600 --> 1:27:21.799 groups fought against territorial expansion, taxation, forced labor, and attempts 1:27:21.800 --> 1:27:25.360 by the Liberian states to extend its authority into the interior. 1:27:26.000 --> 1:27:30.559 And despite generations of American Liberian dominance, indigenous resistance never 1:27:30.840 --> 1:27:35.679 entirely disappeared. Eventually, the political order that had governed Liberia 1:27:35.760 --> 1:27:39.879 for over a century began to crack, economic crisis, corruption 1:27:40.080 --> 1:27:43.760 and grow and resentment towards settled domination culminated in a 1:27:43.760 --> 1:27:48.160 military coup in nineteen eighty led by Samuel Doe, overthrowing 1:27:48.200 --> 1:27:51.280 the government of President William Tolbert and ended more than 1:27:51.320 --> 1:27:56.680 a century of uninterrupted American Liberian political dominance. Now, that 1:27:56.920 --> 1:28:00.839 coup clearly did not create a free or egality society. 1:28:01.439 --> 1:28:05.919 Liberia would soon face thectatorship, civil war and immense suffering, 1:28:06.640 --> 1:28:09.000 but it did mark the collapse of the older settler 1:28:09.040 --> 1:28:13.040 elites monopoly on state power, and efforts at recovery in 1:28:13.080 --> 1:28:17.439 the country are ongoing. Palestinian resistance, on the other hand, 1:28:17.680 --> 1:28:22.559 faced a very different structory. From the beginning of Zius settlement. 1:28:22.840 --> 1:28:28.640 Palestinians resisted displacement and land loss through protests, strikes, political organizing, 1:28:28.760 --> 1:28:31.800 and armed revote. The Great Arab Revolt of nineteen thirty 1:28:31.880 --> 1:28:34.920 six to nineteen thirty nine saw Palestinians launch a massive 1:28:35.160 --> 1:28:39.679 reich An uprising against both British colonial rule and Zonus settlement. 1:28:40.200 --> 1:28:44.400 Decades later came the first and second in Defaders mass movements, 1:28:44.400 --> 1:28:48.760 a combined protest, civil disobedions, community organized and armed resistance. 1:28:49.439 --> 1:28:54.120 Pastidians have built a number of institutions alongside international Solarity 1:28:54.120 --> 1:28:59.479 movements in an effort to sustain their efforts under occupation, siege, exile, 1:28:59.560 --> 1:29:03.760 and apart. Even today, amid the destruction genocide of Gaza, 1:29:04.040 --> 1:29:08.479 passing and resistance continues. Liberia and Israel are both settled 1:29:08.479 --> 1:29:11.439 clinal projects, but they are different enough in scale and 1:29:11.600 --> 1:29:15.920 goals and methods and historical development that obviously treating them 1:29:16.000 --> 1:29:19.520 must equivalent for be misleading. The point of the comparison 1:29:19.720 --> 1:29:24.280 is to identify what these societies have in common. Since 1:29:24.280 --> 1:29:27.439 the cool In Liberia, the old American Liberian elite has 1:29:27.560 --> 1:29:31.160 lost its monopoly on power, but in Israel, the settler 1:29:31.200 --> 1:29:37.800 cluninal project is alive and well was ever expanding settlements, occupation, displacement, 1:29:37.920 --> 1:29:44.240 and brutality. Whether settler dominance in Israel remains or falls 1:29:44.800 --> 1:29:47.720 is yet to be seen. In Liberia, the end of 1:29:47.760 --> 1:29:52.320 settler rules not automatically bring justice, equality or freedom. The 1:29:52.400 --> 1:29:56.120 liberation through state power has not brought their relief, especially 1:29:56.120 --> 1:29:59.280 in the context of a global capitalist order. The replacement 1:29:59.320 --> 1:30:02.599 of one ruling class for another has not ended the struggle, 1:30:02.680 --> 1:30:06.880 but maybe put a semi coola on that struggle. I 1:30:06.880 --> 1:30:10.800 believe the aim of deconization must be not merely the 1:30:10.840 --> 1:30:14.880 fight against the people at the helm of the system, 1:30:15.080 --> 1:30:18.920 but the very helm of the system itself, dismantling the 1:30:19.000 --> 1:30:25.560 structures that make domination possible. The first place, for Palestine 1:30:25.600 --> 1:30:30.840 and for all people's struggling against oppression, ending set localism 1:30:31.280 --> 1:30:36.200 is only the beginning in the pursuit of liberation. That's 1:30:36.240 --> 1:30:40.000 all I have for today. All power to all the people. Peace. 1:30:53.439 --> 1:30:56.000 Hey everyone, it's James. I just wanted to insert a 1:30:56.320 --> 1:30:58.920 quick clarification here. Right at the top of the episode, 1:30:59.320 --> 1:31:01.840 when we talk about Fort Snelling, we talk about the 1:31:02.280 --> 1:31:05.960 largest mass execution in the United State's history. The execution 1:31:06.240 --> 1:31:09.559 occurred in man Cato, Minnesota, not at Fort Snelling, the 1:31:09.600 --> 1:31:13.880 execution of thirty eight people. Two people were executed at 1:31:13.920 --> 1:31:18.960 Fort Snelling and Dakota people were incarcerated at Fort Snelling. 1:31:19.160 --> 1:31:21.880 Banks wanted to clarify exactly what was being said there 1:31:22.000 --> 1:31:23.920 so that we could make sure that everyone got the 1:31:24.000 --> 1:31:27.840 right information. Hello everyone, and welcome to the show. It's 1:31:27.920 --> 1:31:30.759 me James today, and I'm very fortunate to be joined 1:31:30.760 --> 1:31:34.800 by three other people to discuss this indictment in Minnesota. 1:31:34.960 --> 1:31:37.240 I'm going to ask them all to introduce themselves. So 1:31:37.280 --> 1:31:39.839 if we start off with you Mo that would be wonderful. 1:31:40.120 --> 1:31:44.400 Sure, good afternoon. I'm Maura Meltzer Cohen. I'm an attorney, abolitionist, 1:31:44.439 --> 1:31:48.439 and educator. I primarily represent people arrested in the course 1:31:48.439 --> 1:31:50.559 of justice struggles, and I do a lot of popular 1:31:50.680 --> 1:31:54.000 legal education. I also teach at Cuny School of Law. 1:31:54.960 --> 1:31:57.280 Wonderful, Thank you, Olive, If you'd like to go next. 1:31:57.680 --> 1:31:58.679 Hi, I'm Olive. 1:31:59.200 --> 1:32:02.760 I'm a legal worker, a movement legal worker based in Minneapolis, 1:32:02.840 --> 1:32:05.200 and I also make Outlaw. So you might have heard 1:32:05.200 --> 1:32:06.280 my voice on here before. 1:32:07.360 --> 1:32:07.800 MiG By. 1:32:08.640 --> 1:32:12.120 Hi, I'm Margaret. I am sometimes on this show. You 1:32:12.160 --> 1:32:14.200 probably hear me on Sunday's Close and Media book Club, 1:32:14.600 --> 1:32:17.160 And like you all, I woke up to a lot 1:32:17.200 --> 1:32:21.439 of messages this morning being like, oh fuck, things are 1:32:21.439 --> 1:32:24.600 happening in Minneapolis. People are being rated. As always, we 1:32:24.640 --> 1:32:28.880 started off with some false information or some like early rumors, 1:32:29.720 --> 1:32:32.080 but right away people were like, there's a bunch of 1:32:32.120 --> 1:32:35.160 people who are getting arrested. And people started sharing that 1:32:35.479 --> 1:32:38.720 we were about to see a press conference by the 1:32:38.800 --> 1:32:41.840 federal government and they were going to be like, we've 1:32:41.880 --> 1:32:47.280 caught this terrible anti foot terrorists, and I thought that's. 1:32:47.160 --> 1:32:49.000 The kind of thing I like paying attention to. 1:32:49.840 --> 1:32:53.719 So I woke up, well, I've been away for a minute, 1:32:54.000 --> 1:32:57.160 and then I watched a press conference, and then I 1:32:57.240 --> 1:33:01.360 read a very long indictment, and I think I'm not 1:33:01.400 --> 1:33:03.200 the one who's supposed to do the very short version 1:33:03.240 --> 1:33:03.519 of it all. 1:33:03.560 --> 1:33:05.200 But that's how I was. 1:33:05.280 --> 1:33:06.439 That's my narrative version. 1:33:06.240 --> 1:33:06.839 Of what happened. 1:33:07.200 --> 1:33:10.040 Yeah, I think that's that's a good narrative. We are 1:33:10.040 --> 1:33:13.519 going to get on to talking about the indictment, talking 1:33:13.520 --> 1:33:16.559 to about what it does and doesn't do, and what 1:33:16.600 --> 1:33:19.840 it means and doesn't mean. But I know you wanted 1:33:19.880 --> 1:33:22.040 to begin with some really important context about it, the 1:33:22.040 --> 1:33:25.840 physical locations where the alleged actions took place. 1:33:26.360 --> 1:33:31.240 Yeah, I wanted to ground this whole discussion in the 1:33:31.280 --> 1:33:38.080 historical reality of the United States Federal government's violent colonial 1:33:38.200 --> 1:33:41.480 history in this specific place. So one of the places 1:33:41.920 --> 1:33:44.200 that is mentioned a number of times in the indictment 1:33:44.360 --> 1:33:47.839 is Fort Snelling, and Fort Snelling is a US military 1:33:47.880 --> 1:33:52.479 installation that was built on a sacred site at the 1:33:52.520 --> 1:33:57.040 confluence of the Minnesota and Mississippi rivers. I think it's 1:33:57.080 --> 1:34:03.080 really critical that we understand and that not only is 1:34:03.160 --> 1:34:09.679 the United States Federal government continuing to perpetuate its violent 1:34:09.920 --> 1:34:14.719 occupation in the same places that it has historically done 1:34:14.840 --> 1:34:18.200 so in ways that are intended to either include or 1:34:18.360 --> 1:34:22.519 exclude certain groups of people, depending on what's expedient for 1:34:22.560 --> 1:34:25.720 the federal government, but that they're doing it in the 1:34:25.840 --> 1:34:29.560 exact same place as I think the largest mass execution 1:34:29.720 --> 1:34:33.960 in US history, which was a mass execution of Dakota people, 1:34:34.640 --> 1:34:38.559 that after it was carried out, was determined to have 1:34:38.760 --> 1:34:44.679 been totally unlawful and to have involved totally insufficient legal 1:34:44.720 --> 1:34:47.599 process on the part of the United States government, and 1:34:47.640 --> 1:34:53.800 to have involved actions that far exceeded the lawful, legitimate 1:34:53.880 --> 1:34:57.559 authority of the US government. And of course that's exactly 1:34:57.600 --> 1:35:01.160 what we're seeing here again, is the United States federal 1:35:01.200 --> 1:35:05.559 government taking actions that far exceed its lawful authority and 1:35:05.600 --> 1:35:09.640 punishing people who resist those excesses. 1:35:10.439 --> 1:35:11.880 Yeah, I think that's really important. 1:35:12.200 --> 1:35:14.120 One thing I just want to add, I'm not sure 1:35:14.120 --> 1:35:17.040 if you said this clearly, but Fort Snelling is also 1:35:17.600 --> 1:35:20.120 the area that where Whipple is located. So you're going 1:35:20.160 --> 1:35:22.360 to probably hear us talk about the Whipple Building, and 1:35:22.400 --> 1:35:25.000 that is the ice headquarters for the Midwest. It's where 1:35:25.400 --> 1:35:29.880 people detained by ice and all of Minnesota are processed 1:35:30.240 --> 1:35:33.240 through and protesters arrested by Ice as well. 1:35:33.760 --> 1:35:35.760 Yeah, thank you alive. I don't think I did make 1:35:35.760 --> 1:35:36.200 that clear. 1:35:36.640 --> 1:35:39.680 Yeah, it's very important context if people are looking for 1:35:39.680 --> 1:35:41.960 a little bit more context and whipple building, or if 1:35:42.000 --> 1:35:44.439 made a wonderful podcast for us that they can listen 1:35:44.479 --> 1:35:46.799 to about that. And Margaret and I did some reporting 1:35:46.920 --> 1:35:48.880 when we were in the Twin Cities as well. We 1:35:48.920 --> 1:35:50.840 will link to all of those in the show notes 1:35:51.520 --> 1:35:54.679 subsequently to this, Like Margaret, right, I began to receive 1:35:54.680 --> 1:35:57.439 messages that we would be seeing people have been detained, 1:35:57.479 --> 1:36:01.799 we'd be seeing a presser and ittment, So what's the pressor? 1:36:02.120 --> 1:36:05.240 And then they actually really see indictment like fifteen minutes 1:36:05.320 --> 1:36:06.639 before the presser, I believe. 1:36:07.040 --> 1:36:08.800 Yeah, and they were like mad at people forming not 1:36:09.000 --> 1:36:12.160 already read a like ninety four page indictment. 1:36:12.320 --> 1:36:15.280 Yeah, they kept saying reading, Well, this is a thing 1:36:15.320 --> 1:36:17.920 where they can that allows them when they're answering questions 1:36:17.920 --> 1:36:21.320 to say, well, read the indictment. But then for people 1:36:21.360 --> 1:36:23.400 not to ask questions about things that are covered or 1:36:23.400 --> 1:36:24.640 not covered in the indictment. 1:36:24.920 --> 1:36:27.280 Yeah, it was a shitshew. They told people to read 1:36:27.280 --> 1:36:29.639 the indictment. The indictment did not say what they claimed 1:36:29.640 --> 1:36:29.920 the sun. 1:36:30.080 --> 1:36:30.280 Yeah. 1:36:30.320 --> 1:36:32.879 It was a press conference, so it was exactly squarely 1:36:32.960 --> 1:36:35.640 what I would expect from a press conference in that 1:36:35.760 --> 1:36:37.720 like people ask questions, which are good, and they got 1:36:37.760 --> 1:36:38.960 answers which were useless. 1:36:39.520 --> 1:36:40.160 Yeah. 1:36:40.240 --> 1:36:45.880 I was impressed with how quick the press was to 1:36:45.880 --> 1:36:50.640 point out identify, even without having read the indictment, to 1:36:50.760 --> 1:36:55.639 identify the gaping holes in the government's claims. 1:36:56.439 --> 1:36:56.679 Yeah. 1:36:56.920 --> 1:36:59.439 And there's been a lot of really excellent local reporting 1:36:59.479 --> 1:37:01.960 in this winteries for a long time. Actually, it's one 1:37:01.960 --> 1:37:05.519 of the places where like local journalism has not been 1:37:06.120 --> 1:37:10.680 gutted just yet, which is a good thing. The indictment 1:37:10.760 --> 1:37:13.120 that I have in front of me here indicts I 1:37:13.160 --> 1:37:18.400 believe fifteen individuals. From what we know, one of those 1:37:18.439 --> 1:37:23.640 people was already detained. Another twelve have been detained, and 1:37:23.680 --> 1:37:26.839 I believe two are yet to be detained. 1:37:27.160 --> 1:37:29.960 As of recording, I think we're down to one is 1:37:30.040 --> 1:37:30.919 yet to be detained. 1:37:31.000 --> 1:37:34.160 Okay, we're down to one. Yeah, And that they suggested 1:37:34.160 --> 1:37:39.160 in the presser that those people are maybe negotiating surrender. 1:37:39.240 --> 1:37:39.400 Yeah. 1:37:39.439 --> 1:37:42.400 And at the time we are recording, there is a 1:37:42.439 --> 1:37:45.840 bit gathering outside the federal court which is being attacked 1:37:46.360 --> 1:37:49.840 by eight Feds of some description. I'm not quite sure, 1:37:49.880 --> 1:37:54.200 maybe fbs pepper spraying people. We saw them throwing some 1:37:54.320 --> 1:37:58.240 kind of leslieth or grenades. But like there's something that 1:37:58.280 --> 1:38:00.559 people who live in the Twin Cities will have become 1:38:00.680 --> 1:38:02.720 very familiar with at this point, right, which is this 1:38:02.800 --> 1:38:06.160 kind of state violence. Yes, as Mahos pointed out in 1:38:06.160 --> 1:38:08.599 the chat, these people are being perpostrayed for attending court 1:38:08.640 --> 1:38:14.280 proceedings which are public. In the indictment, the district Attorney, 1:38:14.280 --> 1:38:18.640 I guess outlines that these people were members of a 1:38:18.880 --> 1:38:24.080 group called Damn Direct Action Minnesota, previously known as Twin 1:38:24.120 --> 1:38:27.120 Cities direct Action. There are a number of other groups 1:38:27.120 --> 1:38:29.640 and acronyms here that I don't think is huguely important. 1:38:30.000 --> 1:38:32.720 That they are alleging that they were part of a 1:38:32.800 --> 1:38:42.000 group that conspired two, among other things, disrupt and obstruct 1:38:42.520 --> 1:38:45.679 federal agents too. I'm going to quote here. The purposes 1:38:45.680 --> 1:38:48.519 of the conspiracy include the following preventing the enforcement of 1:38:48.560 --> 1:38:52.120 federal immigration law by force, intimidation and threats, opposing the 1:38:52.160 --> 1:38:56.080 authority of the United States government, preventing, hindering or delaying 1:38:56.120 --> 1:38:59.559 by force, the execution of the laws governing the identification, detention, 1:38:59.720 --> 1:39:03.280 and moval of non citizens, to include the Immigration and 1:39:03.400 --> 1:39:08.479 Nationality Act, and preventing impeding and interfering federal law enforcement 1:39:08.640 --> 1:39:13.600 from discharging their duties, including enforcement federal immigration law by force, intimidation, 1:39:13.920 --> 1:39:21.439 and threats. They then go on to detail a great 1:39:21.560 --> 1:39:26.040 number of messages from a number of signal chats. They 1:39:26.040 --> 1:39:30.960 specifically identify them as signal chats, and a large number 1:39:31.240 --> 1:39:35.880 of the messages pertained to a protest held at the 1:39:35.920 --> 1:39:40.080 Whipple Federal Building on the twenty third of January. That's 1:39:40.120 --> 1:39:43.599 a protest that Margaret and I covered, and you will 1:39:43.640 --> 1:39:46.040 have heard our coverage of it before you can go 1:39:46.120 --> 1:39:49.800 back and listen to it. The specific allegations here are 1:39:49.960 --> 1:39:55.719 that the accused people conspired to create a soft quote 1:39:55.840 --> 1:40:02.200 unquote and hard quote unquote barricade. The soft barricade took 1:40:02.200 --> 1:40:04.240 the form of a shield wall that Margaret and I 1:40:04.320 --> 1:40:08.200 reported on the time. The hard barricade they're alleging was 1:40:08.400 --> 1:40:13.320 a number of trailers that they're alleging the accused people 1:40:13.360 --> 1:40:19.479 attempted to flip over in order to prevent fed accessing Whipple. 1:40:19.920 --> 1:40:22.960 From my skim read of the indictment. So far, it 1:40:23.000 --> 1:40:26.680 looks like the actual actions that the conspiracy charge focuses 1:40:26.680 --> 1:40:30.240 on largely about the planning and carrying out of two 1:40:30.280 --> 1:40:34.000 blockade actions at the Whipple Building on January twenty third 1:40:34.040 --> 1:40:37.680 and March first, and then the participation in the coordination 1:40:37.920 --> 1:40:40.920 of commuting or ice watching by car and general ice 1:40:40.960 --> 1:40:45.880 watch activities after the occupation draw down from March to June, 1:40:46.160 --> 1:40:48.680 and the conspiracy charge and the evidence that goes to 1:40:48.720 --> 1:40:51.240 those two things takes up most of the ninety four 1:40:51.280 --> 1:40:51.960 page indictment. 1:40:52.479 --> 1:40:54.599 Yeah, and then as we get to the very very end, 1:40:55.040 --> 1:40:59.240 somebody is accused of kicking a government vehicle and somebody 1:40:59.240 --> 1:41:03.320 else is accused of getting in a road traffic accident 1:41:03.400 --> 1:41:05.840 with a government vehicle, which marg I know you'd read 1:41:05.840 --> 1:41:08.320 that before, but that it's being allected they were deliberately 1:41:08.400 --> 1:41:10.679 using their vehicle as a weapon, right. Yeah. 1:41:10.720 --> 1:41:13.679 The indictment doesn't say that it was a car accident. 1:41:13.720 --> 1:41:17.400 The indictment implies that it caused physical contact, and we 1:41:17.439 --> 1:41:19.439 don't know whether that was physical contact with a vehicle 1:41:19.560 --> 1:41:23.000 or the officer themselves. But in the entire indictment, there 1:41:23.000 --> 1:41:26.720 are very few things that the average person reading this 1:41:26.800 --> 1:41:29.000 indictment would be like, oh, that sounds like a crime. 1:41:29.479 --> 1:41:32.080 And one of those is kicking a police car. And 1:41:32.240 --> 1:41:37.000 one of those is this using a vehicle as a 1:41:37.240 --> 1:41:42.839 dangerous weapon to make quote physical contact and inflict bodily injury. 1:41:43.080 --> 1:41:46.479 And that is number two hundred and seventy six out 1:41:46.520 --> 1:41:49.160 of two hundred and seventy six not counts, but like 1:41:49.600 --> 1:41:53.839 claims made in this document. So they are clearly spending 1:41:53.880 --> 1:41:56.479 the overwhelming majority talking about other things. 1:41:56.720 --> 1:41:58.680 Get a claims MO has that a reasonable way to 1:41:58.680 --> 1:42:01.560 refer to him las allegation? 1:42:01.720 --> 1:42:04.040 So you go, ah, yes, So there's two hundred and 1:42:04.080 --> 1:42:07.519 seventy six allegations and the vast majority are the kind 1:42:07.560 --> 1:42:10.439 of things that the average person reading a thing would 1:42:10.439 --> 1:42:12.880 say that sounds like the most free speech thing I've 1:42:12.920 --> 1:42:16.160 ever read. Not just One of the allegations is that 1:42:16.240 --> 1:42:19.639 one defendant made a video calling for people to come armed. 1:42:20.000 --> 1:42:21.080 During the press conference. 1:42:21.120 --> 1:42:25.040 They actually did a good job, though the reporters were like, cool, 1:42:25.120 --> 1:42:27.800 is there any evidence that that person or anyone who 1:42:27.840 --> 1:42:29.719 that they spoke to actually came armed? 1:42:30.040 --> 1:42:31.800 And they were like, we're not answering that. 1:42:32.320 --> 1:42:34.040 Which is more or less what they said to everything, 1:42:34.720 --> 1:42:39.040 But overall we are talking about a document that describes 1:42:39.479 --> 1:42:44.559 how to organize any protest, how to organize any protest. 1:42:44.640 --> 1:42:48.000 It talks about how do we organize our signal groups 1:42:48.000 --> 1:42:50.120 so that we can communicate more clearly with each other, 1:42:50.360 --> 1:42:52.320 how do we know that the people in our group 1:42:52.360 --> 1:42:55.000 are who they say they are? And it's it's the 1:42:55.120 --> 1:42:58.080 kind of thing that protest organizers have been doing in 1:42:58.080 --> 1:43:00.559 this country for at least several decades. That's just what 1:43:00.600 --> 1:43:04.120 I can speak to personally, and it has been framed 1:43:04.640 --> 1:43:07.080 in a different way. They've done this kind of thing before, 1:43:07.479 --> 1:43:10.200 but it is in this current, real bad. 1:43:10.080 --> 1:43:12.639 Context where everything gets real intense. 1:43:13.160 --> 1:43:15.160 The point that you're making, Margaret is very important because 1:43:15.160 --> 1:43:16.920 a lot of people will look at this and be like, 1:43:17.520 --> 1:43:22.240 this is standard First Amendment shit. And I don't want 1:43:22.320 --> 1:43:26.120 people to think that standard First Amendment shit is illegal now, 1:43:26.720 --> 1:43:30.880 because that is what these prosecutions do. They have a 1:43:30.920 --> 1:43:44.360 chilling effect or protect the First Amendment activity. So, MO, 1:43:44.680 --> 1:43:47.800 I know you enjoy the First Amendment. Would you like 1:43:47.880 --> 1:43:52.160 to explain to us exactly what conspiracy is and what's 1:43:52.200 --> 1:43:54.760 going on here with the charges of conspiracy? 1:43:55.120 --> 1:43:55.479 I do. 1:43:55.640 --> 1:43:59.760 I am a First Amendment enjoyer, So if you look 1:43:59.840 --> 1:44:06.240 through through this indictment, almost all of the allegations that 1:44:06.280 --> 1:44:10.320 are made about the quote overt acts, the actions that 1:44:10.360 --> 1:44:15.320 were taken in support of the conspiracy are, as you said, 1:44:15.960 --> 1:44:20.680 really First Amendment protected conduct. So in order to understand 1:44:20.720 --> 1:44:26.040 how First Amendment protected conduct can be evidence of criminality, 1:44:26.520 --> 1:44:28.840 we have to look at what is a conspiracy, And 1:44:28.880 --> 1:44:33.360 a conspiracy is a fascinating legal animal, because what it 1:44:33.479 --> 1:44:36.320 is is a claim that a group of people made 1:44:36.360 --> 1:44:41.800 an agreement to do something illegal and then took steps 1:44:42.439 --> 1:44:47.320 overt acts, engaged in these quote overt acts in the 1:44:47.360 --> 1:44:51.919 service of carrying out their illegal agreement or their agreement 1:44:52.000 --> 1:44:56.640 to do something unlawful. Right, So all of these things. 1:44:56.720 --> 1:44:58.840 You know, there's so many things in here that are 1:44:59.280 --> 1:45:05.080 clearly institutionally protected. They're very preoccupied with people being members 1:45:05.120 --> 1:45:10.559 of different groups identifying themselves as anarchists, swearing T shirts 1:45:10.600 --> 1:45:13.240 or sweatshirts that are at one point, I think they 1:45:13.280 --> 1:45:17.240 say they're ANTIFA branded. I didn't know we had a brand. 1:45:19.080 --> 1:45:20.800 Yeah, oh yeah, I could send you some merch sor 1:45:22.560 --> 1:45:23.760 I don't know if I should make that joke. 1:45:23.920 --> 1:45:24.479 That's a joke. 1:45:26.520 --> 1:45:29.799 You know, there are all these things, you know, people 1:45:29.800 --> 1:45:34.080 having conversations, people using rhetoric, and all of these things 1:45:34.120 --> 1:45:37.240 are clearly First Amendment protected. And then there are people 1:45:37.280 --> 1:45:40.679 talking about the Second Amendment, which of course is also 1:45:41.280 --> 1:45:46.200 a constitutional amendment, and you know all kinds of you know, 1:45:46.320 --> 1:45:51.920 interesting evidence where they talk about people following or identifying 1:45:52.120 --> 1:45:56.040 ice agents or vehicles driven by ice agents. Well, we 1:45:56.120 --> 1:46:00.639 have a First Amendment right to observe law enforcement in 1:46:00.680 --> 1:46:04.280 the public discharge of their duties. Looking at an ice 1:46:04.360 --> 1:46:08.040 agent or taking notes on what they're doing. Is actually, 1:46:08.360 --> 1:46:13.639 it's not only not unlawful, it's clearly First Amendment protected conduct. Right. 1:46:14.000 --> 1:46:17.600 These people are doing legal observation. And so what is 1:46:17.640 --> 1:46:22.559 the thing that's allegedly removing the First Amendment protection from 1:46:22.640 --> 1:46:26.200 these behaviors is this claim that all of these things 1:46:26.240 --> 1:46:31.160 are being done in the service of this larger agreement 1:46:31.360 --> 1:46:36.240 to do something illegal. What is the illegal thing interfering 1:46:36.400 --> 1:46:40.120 with the discharge of ice you know, I guess I'll 1:46:40.160 --> 1:46:43.120 say duties for a given value of duties. 1:46:43.280 --> 1:46:45.160 There's a lot of air quotes happening for people who 1:46:45.200 --> 1:46:45.679 can't see. 1:46:46.240 --> 1:46:50.519 Sorry, I remember that this is not actually a visual medium. Yeah, 1:46:50.520 --> 1:46:55.680 thank god, I will verbalize this for the record. So 1:46:56.479 --> 1:46:59.240 the thing about conspiracy. That makes it so attractive is 1:46:59.280 --> 1:47:04.479 that it makes it possible for prosecutors to criminalize garden 1:47:04.560 --> 1:47:11.520 variety lawful and even constitutionally protected behavior and whole communities 1:47:12.200 --> 1:47:16.360 of people who are engaged in those behaviors by making 1:47:16.400 --> 1:47:19.120 the claim that all of those things, and all of 1:47:19.160 --> 1:47:22.880 those associations, and all of those beliefs, and all of 1:47:22.880 --> 1:47:27.880 those otherwise protected activities are in the service of a 1:47:28.040 --> 1:47:32.639 larger agreement to do something illegal. Now, of course, they're 1:47:32.680 --> 1:47:38.320 not addressing the fact that people are organizing themselves to 1:47:38.600 --> 1:47:43.599 prevent Ice from doing things that we know are very 1:47:43.720 --> 1:47:52.040 much not lawful, right, like detaining people who are citizens, detaining, 1:47:52.479 --> 1:47:59.880 among others, indigenous people, punching through people's windshields and pulling 1:48:00.080 --> 1:48:04.360 them out of vehicles, like I don't know, murdering two people, 1:48:04.840 --> 1:48:09.000 And that's not being dealt with in this at all. Right, 1:48:09.320 --> 1:48:16.000 The idea that Minneapolis is organizing itself to prevent this massive, 1:48:16.640 --> 1:48:22.080 you know, unlawful occupation, that true to form, exceeds the 1:48:22.160 --> 1:48:24.200 lawful authority of these agencies. 1:48:24.720 --> 1:48:27.479 To your point on Minneapolis organizing itself, it's worth noting 1:48:27.520 --> 1:48:30.200 that every single one of these indicted people is from 1:48:30.200 --> 1:48:33.719 the Twin Cities, and they're repeatedly said in the press 1:48:33.720 --> 1:48:36.800 conference and the endictment that these people try to hijack 1:48:37.479 --> 1:48:41.760 peaceful or First Amendment protests. But that's say admitted in 1:48:41.800 --> 1:48:43.720 the press that every single one of these people was 1:48:43.760 --> 1:48:44.960 from that community. 1:48:45.600 --> 1:48:48.800 I would actually like to point something out about that specifically. 1:48:49.439 --> 1:48:51.960 One of the things that's happening in this indictment is 1:48:52.640 --> 1:48:58.960 that the prosecutors have framed it as these bad protesters 1:48:59.040 --> 1:49:04.000 are trying to use use as cover the actions of legitimate, 1:49:04.040 --> 1:49:07.040 peaceful protesters. So what they're doing is they're setting up 1:49:07.080 --> 1:49:10.560 this idea that there are good protesters and bad protesters, 1:49:10.560 --> 1:49:12.720 which first of all, is a way to divide in 1:49:12.800 --> 1:49:16.000 conquer social movements. But the other thing that they're doing, 1:49:16.040 --> 1:49:18.840 and I really want people to be alert to this, 1:49:20.000 --> 1:49:24.080 is that they are making it possible by associating the two, 1:49:25.240 --> 1:49:30.080 they're making it possible to later come back and go 1:49:30.160 --> 1:49:33.000 after even those people that they are currently defining as 1:49:33.040 --> 1:49:36.479 good protesters. So there's a point in this indictment where 1:49:36.479 --> 1:49:40.040 they make a claim that an organization, I think it's 1:49:40.120 --> 1:49:41.920 the It might have been the five oh five OHO 1:49:41.920 --> 1:49:44.680 one organization. We need to check that. 1:49:44.840 --> 1:49:47.360 But they are mentioned in the indicty. I mentioned as 1:49:47.400 --> 1:49:48.320 a DA yeah. 1:49:48.160 --> 1:49:51.360 And the DSA is and a union is. There's a 1:49:51.400 --> 1:49:57.280 point at which an organization asks twin Cities DA for 1:49:57.439 --> 1:50:03.240 assistance with a rally. And even though in this situation, 1:50:03.520 --> 1:50:06.880 I believe the prosecutors are setting it up like, oh, well, 1:50:06.920 --> 1:50:12.360 this legitimate group is working with this the bad guy group, 1:50:12.800 --> 1:50:16.080 what they've done is created a discourse that will allow 1:50:16.160 --> 1:50:19.760 them if they want to, that will allow the government 1:50:20.120 --> 1:50:24.120 to come back and say, look at this group purporting 1:50:24.160 --> 1:50:28.559 to be a union and doing legitimate, peaceful protests, but 1:50:28.600 --> 1:50:33.280 they're actually enlisting the assistance of you know, the Direct 1:50:33.360 --> 1:50:36.920 Action Group. So on the one hand, you know, I 1:50:36.960 --> 1:50:40.320 think the indictment is playing right into this good protester 1:50:40.520 --> 1:50:45.080 bad protester narrative, which, to be clear, it doesn't matter 1:50:45.160 --> 1:50:49.679 if you are protesting in the air quotes right way, 1:50:49.840 --> 1:50:52.479 you will still be subject to police violence. 1:50:53.040 --> 1:50:53.240 Right. 1:50:53.320 --> 1:50:58.160 The function of this sort of nonviolent protest is that 1:50:58.240 --> 1:51:03.839 it exposes how unwarranted police violence is, not that police 1:51:04.000 --> 1:51:08.600 are not violent toward you if you are protesting the 1:51:08.720 --> 1:51:09.639 quote right way. 1:51:10.360 --> 1:51:10.639 Yeah. 1:51:10.840 --> 1:51:13.679 Margaret and I were there very clearly identified as press 1:51:14.000 --> 1:51:17.040 on the twenty third of January at the Whipple Building, 1:51:17.120 --> 1:51:20.120 and that did not stop us being exposed to police finance. 1:51:20.600 --> 1:51:22.640 We saw people approaching the cops to ask what they 1:51:22.640 --> 1:51:24.440 were supposed to do and get arrested. 1:51:24.680 --> 1:51:25.120 Yeah. 1:51:25.240 --> 1:51:28.679 Yeah, we sawry camera Ben from Italy get Peppa sprayed 1:51:28.840 --> 1:51:32.160 in face. Yeah, that was what I was thinking of. 1:51:32.600 --> 1:51:35.160 Yeah, And actually, mo, I really like this point because 1:51:35.200 --> 1:51:38.360 I actually don't think that the good protester bad protesters 1:51:38.439 --> 1:51:41.599 split is going to work in the popular conversation in 1:51:41.640 --> 1:51:45.040 this particular case as effectively as it usually does. And 1:51:45.080 --> 1:51:49.040 that's part of why ICE is so scared as relates 1:51:49.040 --> 1:51:54.040 to Minneapolis is because there is such a I mean, obviously, 1:51:54.080 --> 1:51:57.559 I'm sure there's divisions, right, but overall there's such a 1:51:57.680 --> 1:52:00.479 unity around like the thing that is happening is far 1:52:00.560 --> 1:52:04.160 more important than our differences that like, I think they're 1:52:04.160 --> 1:52:06.719 not going to successfully split people in the general discourse. 1:52:06.720 --> 1:52:08.400 They'll do it a little bit, right, but they're not 1:52:08.400 --> 1:52:10.320 going to have nearly the traction they usually do. So 1:52:10.400 --> 1:52:12.000 I actually think that this point that you bring up 1:52:12.000 --> 1:52:14.040 is so vital, except of course for the fact that 1:52:14.080 --> 1:52:16.400 there's no time in history when anyone has ever come 1:52:16.439 --> 1:52:18.400 for one person in the morning and then a different 1:52:18.400 --> 1:52:21.680 person at night. I can't think of any examples of that, Right, 1:52:21.800 --> 1:52:24.800 that's sarcasm for Yeah. 1:52:24.080 --> 1:52:25.960 That's my concern, and that's really the thing I want 1:52:26.000 --> 1:52:29.960 to highlight here is that even though they're sort of claiming, oh, 1:52:30.040 --> 1:52:33.120 this group is legitimate, this group is not legitimate, they've 1:52:33.160 --> 1:52:35.960 done this in a manner that's certainly setting them up 1:52:36.000 --> 1:52:39.000 to come for Dsay later, to come for the you know, 1:52:39.200 --> 1:52:43.000 the extream liberal groups and behave as though those liberal 1:52:43.000 --> 1:52:45.599 groups who are of course protesting in the quote right 1:52:45.680 --> 1:52:50.920 way are actually engaged in violent, militant revolutionary action. 1:52:51.680 --> 1:52:51.880 Right. 1:52:53.320 --> 1:52:56.240 I think the veil on this has already kind of 1:52:56.520 --> 1:52:58.640 dropped here on Twin City is just how people have 1:52:58.640 --> 1:53:02.439 been charged, with the church pro testers facing these Face 1:53:02.479 --> 1:53:06.639 Act charges, super serious federal charges, and so many people 1:53:06.680 --> 1:53:10.240 facing federal eighteen USC one eleven charges, most of which 1:53:10.400 --> 1:53:12.519 have already been dropped with those cases closed, and the 1:53:12.560 --> 1:53:14.880 way that we've seen people show up in solidarity has 1:53:14.960 --> 1:53:18.760 been so cool, just like your average liberal mom is 1:53:18.800 --> 1:53:22.360 like drop all the charges. There does feel like this 1:53:23.000 --> 1:53:28.000 sense of solidarity among people for being brave and trying 1:53:28.040 --> 1:53:32.799 to get out there and support their neighbors. That feels 1:53:32.880 --> 1:53:36.000 unique and makes it feel like it would be pretty 1:53:36.000 --> 1:53:38.519 hard for them to be really successful and pushing this 1:53:38.720 --> 1:53:39.479 narrative here. 1:53:40.200 --> 1:53:42.960 I don't think you get to do like anarchists bought 1:53:43.000 --> 1:53:45.639 the violence to the otherwise peaceful protest when you murdered 1:53:45.640 --> 1:53:47.679 a mother in the street and then you murdered someone 1:53:47.760 --> 1:53:48.760 else a few days later. 1:53:49.120 --> 1:53:51.160 And I think this is part of the thing that 1:53:51.200 --> 1:53:55.559 I'm finding interesting about this indictment is on the one hand, 1:53:55.600 --> 1:53:59.840 they're making these factual allegations where they're saying things like 1:54:00.360 --> 1:54:04.479 paragraph seventies says that ICE was totally boxed in for 1:54:04.600 --> 1:54:10.559 half an hour and inconvenienced all morning. Right, It's like, okay, 1:54:10.720 --> 1:54:15.120 But then on the following page it's very clear they're 1:54:15.200 --> 1:54:20.320 talking about, you know, how violent Ice is being, and 1:54:20.360 --> 1:54:24.400 it's very clear that the steaks are actually life or death, 1:54:24.880 --> 1:54:26.439 and that all of the people who are in the 1:54:26.439 --> 1:54:32.520 streets inconveniencing Ice are doing so in defense of others, 1:54:32.600 --> 1:54:34.920 like and when I say defense of others, I mean 1:54:35.240 --> 1:54:38.640 in a legal sense, right, a self defense or defense 1:54:38.800 --> 1:54:43.080 of others. And they're not coming there and shooting ICE agents. 1:54:43.280 --> 1:54:48.920 They are inconveniencing them and even the indictment itself, even 1:54:48.960 --> 1:54:55.480 from the government's own narration, you can see that what 1:54:55.680 --> 1:55:00.440 is at stake for the community in Minneapolis is true 1:55:00.480 --> 1:55:03.560 life or death steaks, and what is at stake for 1:55:03.640 --> 1:55:06.800 the ICE agents is that they are inconvenienced all morning. 1:55:07.520 --> 1:55:18.840 Yeah. 1:55:18.880 --> 1:55:20.360 One of the things that they spend the great deal 1:55:20.360 --> 1:55:25.440 of time talking about to indictment is optick operational security 1:55:25.480 --> 1:55:28.120 for those who are not familiar, and how that is evidence. 1:55:28.200 --> 1:55:31.200 So they were bad people conscrying to do bad things, 1:55:31.720 --> 1:55:35.560 and very obviously this group's operational security has some kind 1:55:35.600 --> 1:55:41.120 of breach, and we should talk about the time and 1:55:41.280 --> 1:55:45.960 place to discuss that breach. So if anyone would like 1:55:45.960 --> 1:55:48.160 to take a swing at either of those things, would 1:55:48.160 --> 1:55:48.600 be lovely. 1:55:49.120 --> 1:55:52.000 I mean, I would say that obviously, if you're reading 1:55:52.040 --> 1:55:56.600 someone's signal messages in an indictment, clearly the security did 1:55:56.600 --> 1:55:59.600 not fully succeed. Yeah, but I would just say that, actually, 1:56:00.560 --> 1:56:03.800 a lot of the indictment seems to be people being 1:56:03.880 --> 1:56:06.440 frustrated at the success of the operational security. 1:56:06.800 --> 1:56:08.440 A lot of the indictment. 1:56:07.960 --> 1:56:11.840 Is like and then they kept vetting, and therefore the 1:56:11.880 --> 1:56:14.160 implication is like, and therefore we didn't get to the 1:56:14.200 --> 1:56:16.040 next stage with our attempts. 1:56:16.280 --> 1:56:20.720 Yeah, I do think it's important to understand that operational 1:56:20.760 --> 1:56:25.440 security is not evidence of guilt, and playing who's the 1:56:25.440 --> 1:56:28.879 cop in the group chat is a game that everybody loses. 1:56:29.680 --> 1:56:34.560 And also, not everything needs to be set on the internet. 1:56:34.640 --> 1:56:38.920 I'm going to say it again if you missed it 1:56:38.960 --> 1:56:42.560 the first time I said it, not everything needs to 1:56:42.600 --> 1:56:44.000 be set on the internet. 1:56:47.960 --> 1:56:50.040 But what if I want to just explain to everyone 1:56:50.080 --> 1:56:53.400 that I'm really cool and radical? Isn't the best way 1:56:53.400 --> 1:56:56.880 to do it to just say that on the internet. 1:56:56.560 --> 1:56:58.080 If you have an Instagram account. 1:56:58.360 --> 1:57:01.480 Hey, remember that crazy chat min song where she says 1:57:02.320 --> 1:57:05.760 talking about a revolution sounds like a whisper. 1:57:06.280 --> 1:57:07.800 Yeah, but also had a really fast car. 1:57:08.120 --> 1:57:12.160 Yeah, sorry, I just really like Tracy Chatman. Yeah no, No, 1:57:12.240 --> 1:57:14.360 that's a that's a good point, and stand out in 1:57:14.400 --> 1:57:16.160 the welfare line might be a better. 1:57:15.960 --> 1:57:17.280 Place to do it than online. 1:57:17.840 --> 1:57:18.440 Maybe. 1:57:18.800 --> 1:57:22.000 And we also are just seeing that the bulk of 1:57:22.320 --> 1:57:27.160 evidence is extensive records of some supposedly vetted signal chat 1:57:27.160 --> 1:57:31.680 messages and highly detailed reports from supposedly vetted in person meetings, 1:57:31.760 --> 1:57:34.480 both gathered over the course of nearly half a year 1:57:34.560 --> 1:57:38.440 since January and there's a lot of ways they could 1:57:38.480 --> 1:57:41.280 have gotten this information. Some of these events were public events. 1:57:41.280 --> 1:57:45.400 There's transcripts of a tour that some people did, a 1:57:45.440 --> 1:57:49.200 speaking tour about resistance to Minneapolis. Those were open events 1:57:49.240 --> 1:57:51.800 to the public. Of course, there's going to be FEDS there. 1:57:52.760 --> 1:57:56.920 But as wiser people than me have always said, your 1:57:57.280 --> 1:58:00.360 signal messages, if you can see them on your phone, 1:58:00.360 --> 1:58:02.520 and someone else gets your phone, they can also see 1:58:02.560 --> 1:58:05.400 them on your phone. So a lot of people were 1:58:05.440 --> 1:58:08.040 arrested here and had their phone seized as evidence. There's 1:58:08.120 --> 1:58:10.520 lots of ways that these messages could have been obtained. 1:58:11.360 --> 1:58:13.760 And what Moe is saying, I just think it's worth 1:58:13.800 --> 1:58:14.600 elaborating on that. 1:58:14.640 --> 1:58:15.720 It won't help anyone. 1:58:16.120 --> 1:58:18.640 What did you say about cop looking for the cop 1:58:18.640 --> 1:58:20.040 and the chat will never don't play? 1:58:20.080 --> 1:58:21.440 Who's the cop in the group chat? 1:58:21.680 --> 1:58:24.960 Yeah? Yeah, everybody loses is a good way to describe that. 1:58:25.280 --> 1:58:28.120 Yeah, And just to make it explicit. I think it's 1:58:28.120 --> 1:58:30.040 because you could read this and be like, oh my god, 1:58:30.120 --> 1:58:33.520 somebody snitched or there's an infiltrator, and I just think 1:58:34.360 --> 1:58:35.160 that's not clear. 1:58:35.720 --> 1:58:38.280 We don't know. Yeah, we just don't know. 1:58:38.800 --> 1:58:40.640 And I think the other thing that I would like 1:58:40.720 --> 1:58:42.840 to say is I'm looking at a lot of these 1:58:42.840 --> 1:58:48.280 text messages and they're not particularly evidence of unlawful conduct. 1:58:48.400 --> 1:58:50.200 No, No, they're really not right. 1:58:50.520 --> 1:58:54.040 And so I don't think this allusion to that is 1:58:54.080 --> 1:58:57.320 to never talk to your friends or to never organize. 1:58:57.760 --> 1:59:02.280 I do think that it's in important to remember that 1:59:02.440 --> 1:59:06.400 basically anything you say, Hannon, will be used against you. 1:59:07.040 --> 1:59:11.600 When I say to my clients, look, even when you're 1:59:11.680 --> 1:59:15.240 saying you're protesting your innocence, you know, when you're. 1:59:15.080 --> 1:59:17.080 Telling people publicly I. 1:59:17.000 --> 1:59:21.080 Didn't do anything that can be used against you. Who 1:59:21.160 --> 1:59:25.160 don't know what police and prosecutors are going to understand 1:59:25.200 --> 1:59:28.120 as evidence or what they're going to understand it as 1:59:28.200 --> 1:59:32.520 evidence of. That doesn't mean we don't talk to each other. 1:59:32.600 --> 1:59:34.680 It doesn't mean we self censor. It means we have 1:59:34.720 --> 1:59:37.160 the courage of our convictions. Yeah, And it means that 1:59:37.160 --> 1:59:39.520 we're thoughtful and circumspect about what we say. 1:59:39.840 --> 1:59:40.200 Yeah. 1:59:40.360 --> 1:59:42.760 I think that's just like the most important point to 1:59:42.840 --> 1:59:44.600 all of this. We have the courage of our convictions, 1:59:44.600 --> 1:59:46.720 and that doesn't mean we should be fools. Right, Like 1:59:46.760 --> 1:59:49.480 the indictment is much more concerned with that they built 1:59:49.520 --> 1:59:52.960 shields than it is about their conspiracy to kick police 1:59:52.960 --> 1:59:54.680 cars or whatever it is that they're accused of their 1:59:54.720 --> 1:59:57.520 overt acts. Yeah, you know, and a lot of it 1:59:57.560 --> 2:00:01.240 is around the ideology of these people, and interestingly, it 2:00:01.320 --> 2:00:06.680 mentions anarchism or anarchists substantially more than it mentions antifa 2:00:07.080 --> 2:00:09.720 with emphasis on the wrong syllable, of course. 2:00:10.000 --> 2:00:14.040 And that's actually not new. That's actually really old. 2:00:13.800 --> 2:00:14.920 In American history. 2:00:15.320 --> 2:00:19.600 But it's interesting to me that one of the cases 2:00:19.640 --> 2:00:21.720 that it looks like they're trying to build with these 2:00:21.720 --> 2:00:25.960 allegations is that all of these people identify as anarchists, 2:00:26.000 --> 2:00:28.800 and that they're obviously not being accused of being an anarchist, 2:00:28.880 --> 2:00:31.520 because that's not a crime, but that it certainly seems 2:00:31.520 --> 2:00:34.080 like they're attempting to say, like, this person identifies an anarchist, 2:00:34.160 --> 2:00:36.000 therefore they are more likely to have committed these other 2:00:36.040 --> 2:00:39.080 crimes or whatever. And I just think that's worth pointing 2:00:39.160 --> 2:00:43.600 out that that is a thing that the state is 2:00:43.640 --> 2:00:46.960 heavily focused on. But for me, as an anarchist, this 2:00:47.120 --> 2:00:48.920 is about the kind of thing where you're like, well, 2:00:48.960 --> 2:00:51.720 the courage of my convictions. It's not a crime to 2:00:51.760 --> 2:00:54.520 believe that we should organize society and a bottom up, 2:00:54.520 --> 2:00:55.560 horizontal structure. 2:00:56.200 --> 2:00:58.960 And to add to that, the reason they're doing that 2:00:59.040 --> 2:01:02.120 is that they're relying on a popular misunderstanding of anarchism 2:01:02.160 --> 2:01:05.280 to mean a predilection for chaos and violence probably. And 2:01:05.360 --> 2:01:07.920 the more that we can explain that anarchists mostly just 2:01:07.960 --> 2:01:09.800 want to make tea for you and be nice to you, 2:01:10.520 --> 2:01:13.520 then the further we can go to dispelling Yeah that, 2:01:13.640 --> 2:01:15.880 Like I like to define anarchism as building ways to 2:01:15.920 --> 2:01:18.680 take care of people that don't reinforce ways to control. 2:01:18.320 --> 2:01:21.960 People, which includes guarding kindergartens, right. 2:01:21.960 --> 2:01:24.320 Yeah, yeah, there are many ways that we can do that. 2:01:24.400 --> 2:01:27.920 But the fewer people who have that misunderstanding that, the 2:01:28.000 --> 2:01:29.560 harder it comes to make that argument. 2:01:30.240 --> 2:01:30.840 Yeah. 2:01:30.960 --> 2:01:35.240 I think the point in this indictment that perfectly illustrates 2:01:35.760 --> 2:01:39.800 the fundamental misapprehension that the government has about what an 2:01:39.840 --> 2:01:44.760 anarchist is and what we're up to is the phrase 2:01:45.440 --> 2:01:47.960 the aggressive use of shields. 2:01:48.560 --> 2:01:50.840 Yeah, that was what I was going to clip out 2:01:50.880 --> 2:01:51.520 as well. 2:01:52.640 --> 2:01:58.600 Because, as you say, we're not food and bombs, right, 2:01:58.680 --> 2:02:02.280 it's food not bombs. We're seeing each other, we're protecting 2:02:02.640 --> 2:02:08.400 kindergartens where you know, we're providing security for meetings we're 2:02:08.800 --> 2:02:13.240 mostly frankly feeding each other. Yeah, not always very well, 2:02:14.360 --> 2:02:15.040 right yet a. 2:02:15.040 --> 2:02:18.280 Little over emphasis on badly cooked eggplant. 2:02:17.920 --> 2:02:22.520 Too many human beings possibly, but you know, but we're 2:02:22.520 --> 2:02:26.280 doing our best out here. And maybe I actually think 2:02:26.360 --> 2:02:30.480 that the idea that anarchists are people who engage in 2:02:30.520 --> 2:02:34.200 the aggressive use of shields is actually, in some respects 2:02:34.240 --> 2:02:35.440 really precise. 2:02:36.120 --> 2:02:38.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 2:02:38.720 --> 2:02:40.600 If these people will walk, it would be a great 2:02:40.640 --> 2:02:44.400 album title for someone. There has been a lot of 2:02:44.400 --> 2:02:48.640 reaction to several federal cases in the last twelve months, right, 2:02:48.840 --> 2:02:52.240 maybe sixty eighteen, God knows how long we've entered this. 2:02:52.760 --> 2:02:55.680 But this is not that this is not prairie land. 2:02:56.440 --> 2:03:00.000 As we spoke about before, More than half the eighteen 2:03:00.120 --> 2:03:02.600 USC cases in this so to have already been dropped. 2:03:03.440 --> 2:03:06.680 Can you maybe help situate this in a place that 2:03:06.800 --> 2:03:09.120 helps people who are drubbing with the sky is falling 2:03:09.120 --> 2:03:10.960 feeling right now? Well? 2:03:11.040 --> 2:03:13.800 I think one really nice thing is the arraignments are 2:03:14.200 --> 2:03:17.480 I believe still ongoing as we are speaking of the 2:03:17.520 --> 2:03:22.320 people who were raided and arrested this morning, and last 2:03:22.360 --> 2:03:25.280 I heard, all five whose cases had been called were 2:03:25.360 --> 2:03:29.280 ordered released with conditions of not talking to each other 2:03:29.560 --> 2:03:32.800 with one exception for people who are roommates. But that's 2:03:32.840 --> 2:03:36.920 interesting and probably a whole other conversation. But that's a 2:03:36.920 --> 2:03:39.840 big deal that people were facing conspiracy charges, which are 2:03:40.440 --> 2:03:45.400 very serious federal charges, and were released today at their arraignments. 2:03:46.000 --> 2:03:49.080 I think it shows it's an indication of where the 2:03:49.120 --> 2:03:52.200 courts are at, and also just these cases are taking 2:03:52.240 --> 2:03:57.480 place in these cities where the whole world watched the 2:03:57.480 --> 2:04:03.040 federal government do absolute terror and people do beautiful human 2:04:03.680 --> 2:04:06.200 loving each other in all the ways that they could 2:04:06.320 --> 2:04:10.200 to try and keep people alive while federal agents killed people. 2:04:10.280 --> 2:04:13.000 So it's just the context that it is in. 2:04:13.320 --> 2:04:17.600 It's super different than rural Texas, you know, and even 2:04:17.640 --> 2:04:19.760 the facts that we are dealing with in this are 2:04:19.800 --> 2:04:20.720 just less hard. 2:04:20.840 --> 2:04:21.040 You know. 2:04:21.080 --> 2:04:25.400 There's not allegations that someone shot a cop, which is 2:04:25.440 --> 2:04:27.760 a harder narrative to overcome in public the court of 2:04:27.760 --> 2:04:32.880 public opinion, and the allegations generally also seem even less 2:04:32.880 --> 2:04:36.440 serious than the recent indictment that came out in Michigan 2:04:36.480 --> 2:04:40.640 for the Palestine protesters. So I just think that's an 2:04:40.680 --> 2:04:42.880 interesting grounding thing. And on the other hand, we did 2:04:42.960 --> 2:04:47.240 recently see it with the Spokane three people convicted of conspiracy, 2:04:47.280 --> 2:04:50.520 which was that's the second one after Prairie Land. So 2:04:50.560 --> 2:04:52.400 while a lot of these cases around the country have 2:04:52.440 --> 2:04:54.840 been dropped, not all of them have. But it's hard 2:04:54.840 --> 2:04:58.320 to imagine this being super successful given where it's taking place. 2:04:58.880 --> 2:05:00.880 And I think that when we we look at Minneapolis 2:05:00.880 --> 2:05:04.120 and we're like, Okay, Minneapolis was the or the Twin Cities. 2:05:04.120 --> 2:05:06.600 I'm sorry, Saint Paul. I'm so sorry I keep accidentally 2:05:06.640 --> 2:05:10.000 doing that in Saint Paul, You're also wonderful and people 2:05:10.040 --> 2:05:12.120 have done so much work and they have been this 2:05:12.280 --> 2:05:16.520 like guiding light for a huge chunk of people living 2:05:16.640 --> 2:05:19.600 in the United States of America in this past year, right, 2:05:19.720 --> 2:05:22.440 like looking how people have come together to defend their 2:05:22.480 --> 2:05:26.480 neighbors and themselves, and like, I think that it's important 2:05:26.520 --> 2:05:30.240 that we say that unity has to continue. And so 2:05:30.320 --> 2:05:33.920 it's like the reason that I am optimistic is because 2:05:33.960 --> 2:05:37.240 of the actions that I saw in Minneapolis. Sorry I 2:05:37.240 --> 2:05:39.360 didn't go to Saint Paul, but you know, the actions 2:05:39.360 --> 2:05:43.240 I saw in Minnesota. But that has to continue, like 2:05:43.320 --> 2:05:45.960 what during court support during you know, so it's not 2:05:46.000 --> 2:05:50.120 like just a oh, we've got this right, but instead 2:05:50.320 --> 2:05:52.680 by continuing to say we we are looking. 2:05:52.880 --> 2:05:55.480 This does matter to us, This matters to everybody. 2:05:55.640 --> 2:05:59.600 Yeah, I'm hoping that that kind of continues to influence things. 2:05:59.400 --> 2:06:01.600 And I think we've I saw that today the arrangements. 2:06:02.240 --> 2:06:05.240 The courtroom was packed, it was overflowing, so people were 2:06:05.280 --> 2:06:10.320 outside chanting, and that's when teargas was deployed and there 2:06:10.360 --> 2:06:14.000 was unprecedented I mean, it just was unprecedented here at 2:06:14.000 --> 2:06:16.360 the Federal Courthouse to see that kind of force used. 2:06:16.680 --> 2:06:19.560 But there's tons of people outside. You know, this happened 2:06:19.560 --> 2:06:23.440 this morning, and the community is not having it. 2:06:23.520 --> 2:06:27.560 So Yeah, even though they're car kicking anarchists. 2:06:28.640 --> 2:06:30.280 Cause living in fear. 2:06:31.040 --> 2:06:35.600 We need to remember too that no action is over 2:06:35.920 --> 2:06:41.320 until the last person accused is home and free. Yeah, 2:06:41.400 --> 2:06:43.520 we have to keep doing court support, we have to 2:06:43.520 --> 2:06:49.720 do prisoner support. I am so relieved, I guess to 2:06:49.880 --> 2:06:55.040 know that Minneapolis and Saint Paul have such well developed 2:06:55.080 --> 2:06:59.320 legal infrastructure, including not only lawyers who have you know, 2:06:59.480 --> 2:07:03.760 decades of experience fighting against the politically motivated abuse of 2:07:03.840 --> 2:07:07.760 state power against people, you know, on the basis of 2:07:07.800 --> 2:07:13.000 their First Amendment protected beliefs, but also legal workers and 2:07:13.200 --> 2:07:17.400 jail support and people who have really learned over the 2:07:17.400 --> 2:07:21.800 course of not just this last winter, but you know, 2:07:22.160 --> 2:07:26.400 through the course of many decades of movement struggles, how 2:07:26.440 --> 2:07:28.440 to deal with this kind of stuff. And I know 2:07:28.520 --> 2:07:32.280 that these particular this particular group is in really good hands. 2:07:33.160 --> 2:07:36.680 It's not that this isn't a terrible situation, and it's 2:07:36.680 --> 2:07:41.560 not that it isn't going to be potentially devastating for 2:07:41.680 --> 2:07:46.360 the individuals who've been indicted, but the kind of solidarity 2:07:46.640 --> 2:07:48.920 that we have seen and that we saw this morning 2:07:48.960 --> 2:07:51.240 at the courthouse is really heartening to me. 2:07:52.280 --> 2:07:55.880 Yeah, I guess I'll just say like I had the 2:07:57.040 --> 2:08:00.440 misfortune of having to listen to Gregory Bavino's interview at 2:08:00.480 --> 2:08:03.160 the remigration conference in Portugal as part of my job, 2:08:03.680 --> 2:08:05.920 and one of the things he said was that they 2:08:06.040 --> 2:08:09.880 surrendered to Minneapolis and Saint Paul, right, and they felt 2:08:09.920 --> 2:08:12.360 like they were defeated there. And I don't think it's 2:08:12.360 --> 2:08:14.920 a coincidence that this is happening right after they got 2:08:14.920 --> 2:08:18.720 their funding bill passed, right, but very clearly the people 2:08:18.760 --> 2:08:21.280 of the Twin Cities stood up to ICE and CBP 2:08:21.480 --> 2:08:24.760 and one and ICE and CBP know that they are 2:08:24.880 --> 2:08:27.840 very upset about it, but that means you can do 2:08:27.920 --> 2:08:31.840 it again, and like this takes a different form when 2:08:31.840 --> 2:08:33.800 it comes in the form of court support, right, there's 2:08:33.800 --> 2:08:36.400 a different kind of struggle, but the way we confront 2:08:36.440 --> 2:08:38.480 it is the same, which is to say together, we 2:08:38.560 --> 2:08:40.720 saw people wholly each other so close in the Twin 2:08:40.760 --> 2:08:44.560 Cities and it was really beautiful amidst horrible, horrible shit. 2:08:44.800 --> 2:08:47.960 And I think that people can continue to do that 2:08:48.080 --> 2:08:50.520 and continue to be this light that the rest of 2:08:50.560 --> 2:08:51.400 the country looks up to. 2:08:51.400 --> 2:08:55.160 You as a wise mentor. MO has said many times before, 2:08:55.520 --> 2:08:58.360 the punishment is the process for anyone going through this. 2:08:59.320 --> 2:09:04.360 I hope you don't feel that, however hard this is, 2:09:04.360 --> 2:09:07.600 is being undermined. It's incredibly difficult to go through this process. 2:09:07.640 --> 2:09:10.720 But staying grounded in the reality of where you are, 2:09:10.720 --> 2:09:12.960 the cases that have been dropped, and the fact that 2:09:13.000 --> 2:09:16.280 there's not yet a conviction to minimize fear is a 2:09:16.280 --> 2:09:19.040 way of taking back power from the state which they 2:09:19.080 --> 2:09:22.120 get to wheeled over us by doing things like this 2:09:22.240 --> 2:09:24.200 to freak us out and make us really scared. And 2:09:24.240 --> 2:09:26.440 we don't know if this will hold up in court yet, 2:09:26.600 --> 2:09:29.800 so let's keep our feet on the ground and puld 2:09:29.800 --> 2:09:31.800 each other close and try not to. 2:09:31.880 --> 2:09:35.080 Let them get us down more than more than they 2:09:35.120 --> 2:09:35.400 have to. 2:09:36.160 --> 2:09:50.200 Yeah, welcome to it could happen here. 2:09:50.440 --> 2:09:54.320 I'm Robert Evans. Now. A few days ago I had 2:09:54.320 --> 2:09:56.800 the experience of listening to somebody that I've known for 2:09:56.840 --> 2:09:59.560 a while and known as a fairly mainstream liberal, someone 2:09:59.560 --> 2:10:03.760 who does not, in general support the personal ownership of firearms, 2:10:03.800 --> 2:10:07.760 certainly not weapons like ar fifteens react to the recent 2:10:08.040 --> 2:10:11.360 race riots bagrams, you know, whatever term I guess is 2:10:11.440 --> 2:10:16.760 most appropriate in Belfast, where racist mobs ran through the 2:10:16.760 --> 2:10:19.400 streets attacking people in their homes, pulling them out of 2:10:19.400 --> 2:10:21.880 their homes, lagging their homes on fire, targeting these people 2:10:21.960 --> 2:10:25.080 because they were not white. And this person, who I've 2:10:25.120 --> 2:10:28.120 known for a while, reacted to watching footage of this 2:10:28.440 --> 2:10:31.200 and reading headlines and their general shock and horror by 2:10:31.200 --> 2:10:33.840 saying something along the lines of I guess if this 2:10:33.920 --> 2:10:36.000 kind of stuff is on the table, I understand why 2:10:36.040 --> 2:10:40.960 people need are fifteens Now? Nothing had actually changed about 2:10:40.960 --> 2:10:43.959 the way the world works to alter this person's opinion 2:10:44.320 --> 2:10:47.560 of guns or of reality. They were simply forced to 2:10:47.640 --> 2:10:50.880 confront an aspect of reality that had previously been obscured 2:10:50.880 --> 2:10:53.680 to them because in earlier days, they had assumed that 2:10:53.760 --> 2:10:57.080 in any civilized nation, and they considered Northern Ireland to 2:10:57.120 --> 2:10:59.800 be part of a civilized nation, police would stop this 2:11:00.080 --> 2:11:03.400 kind of behavior. And if you feel like the rule 2:11:03.440 --> 2:11:06.200 of law is something you can trust on pretty immutably, 2:11:06.280 --> 2:11:08.400 then someone else saying no, I would rather have a 2:11:08.440 --> 2:11:11.080 gun of my own than trust a cop might sound 2:11:11.160 --> 2:11:14.920 like a mania. Today's episode is not about guns or 2:11:14.960 --> 2:11:17.640 gun rights. It is in the most direct sense, about 2:11:17.760 --> 2:11:20.760 data centers and the current people's war on building more 2:11:20.800 --> 2:11:24.480 of them. I see the current vast groundswell of support 2:11:24.520 --> 2:11:26.960 for this kind of activism and this fight in general, 2:11:27.000 --> 2:11:29.640 as the most hopeful change in domestic politics in quite 2:11:29.640 --> 2:11:32.480 some time, and I think this movement could become a 2:11:32.480 --> 2:11:34.600 weapon that drives a stake into the hearts of the 2:11:34.600 --> 2:11:37.640 silicon oligarchy that currently rule quite a lot of our world. 2:11:38.280 --> 2:11:41.560 The problem is any mass movement like this, especially one 2:11:41.720 --> 2:11:46.200 built on what is essentially also like the biggest name 2:11:46.400 --> 2:11:49.480 in the news right now, AI, is going to involve 2:11:49.480 --> 2:11:53.280 a lot of misinformation and even disinformation. People don't just 2:11:53.400 --> 2:11:56.160 hate data centers for good reasons, they hate them for 2:11:56.240 --> 2:11:58.720 bad ones too, Or at least it would probably be 2:11:58.800 --> 2:12:00.560 more accurate for me to say a lot of people 2:12:00.560 --> 2:12:03.680 hate them for reasons that don't reflect something data centers 2:12:03.720 --> 2:12:08.080 actually do or make worse. The broader reason that I've 2:12:08.120 --> 2:12:10.920 seen some people have issues with this fight, with this 2:12:11.040 --> 2:12:13.760 mass movement against the construction of new data centers is 2:12:13.800 --> 2:12:19.440 that data centers are utterly necessary modern infrastructure and incredibly 2:12:19.480 --> 2:12:22.360 crucial to the maintenance of what we would consider basic 2:12:22.480 --> 2:12:25.840 daily life. This is something that's true even without AI, 2:12:25.960 --> 2:12:28.160 and this is something that was true prior to the 2:12:28.200 --> 2:12:31.480 introduction of what Silicon Valley likes to call AI into 2:12:31.520 --> 2:12:34.440 all of our lives. Data centers are what make the 2:12:34.520 --> 2:12:38.240 age of cloud computing possible, and starting in the twenty tens, 2:12:38.240 --> 2:12:41.320 we decided that the cloud was where everything compute wise 2:12:41.480 --> 2:12:44.880 was increasingly going to happen in the future. There were 2:12:44.960 --> 2:12:48.680 pragmatic reasons for this. Having words savior document to a 2:12:48.720 --> 2:12:52.160 cloud file that makes it instantly accessible from any machine 2:12:52.400 --> 2:12:55.360 with Internet access should you desire. That's a big leap 2:12:55.400 --> 2:12:58.920 forward in capability, at least in one direction. Likewise, having 2:12:59.000 --> 2:13:01.520 like a watch on your body that cannot just take 2:13:01.560 --> 2:13:04.440 down your biometric data during a workout, but can store 2:13:04.480 --> 2:13:07.360 it and analyze it over long periods of time that 2:13:07.480 --> 2:13:10.720 offers people real utility. There's a reason products like this 2:13:10.840 --> 2:13:14.920 are very popular. You can't, however, have the entire world 2:13:15.000 --> 2:13:18.520 mapped out and accessible for turn by turn navigation without 2:13:18.560 --> 2:13:21.720 needing a shitload of data centers somewhere and in fact, 2:13:21.800 --> 2:13:25.600 in quite a few somewheres to make that possible. Now, 2:13:25.640 --> 2:13:28.360 of course, there are also privacy trade offs for all 2:13:28.400 --> 2:13:31.520 of these kinds of products. That's been the entire logic 2:13:31.600 --> 2:13:34.440 of the Internet of Things era. You hand over your 2:13:34.520 --> 2:13:38.960 data and we deliver utility. Privacy advocates have had issues 2:13:38.960 --> 2:13:42.240 with this from the jump, but most people didn't because 2:13:42.280 --> 2:13:45.400 the benefits were obvious and most people don't like to 2:13:45.440 --> 2:13:47.720 read or think very hard if we can avoid it. 2:13:48.440 --> 2:13:51.920 For almost twenty years, consumers largely ignored the rollout of 2:13:52.000 --> 2:13:55.680 data centers around the world, even sometimes into our backyards, 2:13:55.840 --> 2:13:59.360 because big tech had reasonably good pr and most people 2:13:59.400 --> 2:14:02.640 were happy with their gizmos. All in all, you get 2:14:02.680 --> 2:14:05.280 a hint of how uncontroversial this used to be. In 2:14:05.320 --> 2:14:08.280 a twenty twenty two article I found published on Microsoft's 2:14:08.480 --> 2:14:11.040 source Emea website, written. 2:14:10.760 --> 2:14:11.800 By Bill Briggs. 2:14:11.960 --> 2:14:15.440 The title was critical to our modern society, how data 2:14:15.480 --> 2:14:18.800 centers power every day necessities. Now, there was a little 2:14:18.840 --> 2:14:20.960 bit about AI in there, but this is twenty twenty 2:14:20.960 --> 2:14:23.680 two and the hype cycle hadn't nearly hit its peak 2:14:23.720 --> 2:14:26.840 at that point. The article spent much more time emphasizing 2:14:26.880 --> 2:14:31.120 how integral data centers are in things that people like quote. 2:14:31.320 --> 2:14:34.919 Simply put, they are the physical infrastructure behind cloud computing, 2:14:34.960 --> 2:14:38.040 and across Europe, Microsoft data centers are operating around the 2:14:38.040 --> 2:14:41.080 clock to support a wide spectrum of critical services, from 2:14:41.080 --> 2:14:43.320 the life saving work of doctors and first responders to 2:14:43.400 --> 2:14:46.800 essential services like groceries and online banking. At the same time, 2:14:46.880 --> 2:14:50.960 data centers also empowered everyday necessities like food deliveries, remote work, 2:14:51.000 --> 2:14:54.240 and video calls to family. The article goes on to 2:14:54.280 --> 2:14:57.720 include a quote from Rahil Nasir, an associate research director 2:14:57.760 --> 2:15:00.600 at a market research firm, who called data senaers the 2:15:00.720 --> 2:15:05.080 invisible infrastructure, which I find interesting because absolutely no one 2:15:05.120 --> 2:15:08.120 would call it that today, right People on these saw 2:15:08.120 --> 2:15:11.040 them as invisible back then because there hadn't been much 2:15:11.080 --> 2:15:14.200 public discussion about these things, and there weren't nearly as 2:15:14.200 --> 2:15:16.960 many of them, to be fair. In twenty twenty two, 2:15:17.200 --> 2:15:20.800 the del Oro Group estimated global data center capex to 2:15:20.880 --> 2:15:24.000 have been about two hundred and forty one billion dollars. 2:15:24.560 --> 2:15:28.400 McKenzie is currently predicting global spending on data centers will 2:15:28.440 --> 2:15:33.120 reach seven trillion dollars by twenty thirty. The number of 2:15:33.200 --> 2:15:36.880 data center projects in development or under contract exploded pretty 2:15:36.960 --> 2:15:39.720 much right after Microsoft put out the article I quoted 2:15:39.720 --> 2:15:42.360 from earlier, and this put millions of people face to 2:15:42.400 --> 2:15:46.240 face with the reality of data center construction projects, many 2:15:46.240 --> 2:15:49.760 of them revolted. Q one of twenty twenty six saw 2:15:49.800 --> 2:15:54.240 a record seventy five data center projects blocked or delayed nationwide, 2:15:54.400 --> 2:15:57.400 which made it, in NBC's words, the most blocked and 2:15:57.480 --> 2:16:01.200 delayed quarter for data center projects on record. Researchers at 2:16:01.280 --> 2:16:03.920 Data world Watch told journalists they did not consider this 2:16:04.040 --> 2:16:08.360 a cyclical spike polygon, instead a structural shift caused as 2:16:08.480 --> 2:16:13.520 quote communities internalized an opposition playbook, legislative sessions introduced formal 2:16:13.560 --> 2:16:17.080 regulatory uncertainty, and the number of active opposition groups more 2:16:17.120 --> 2:16:19.560 than doubled to eight hundred and thirty three across forty 2:16:19.640 --> 2:16:24.040 nine states now. The rapid and obviously organic nature of 2:16:24.040 --> 2:16:28.280 this growth has alarmed certain democratic and Republican politicians, largely 2:16:28.480 --> 2:16:30.760 the ones who have taken money from the tech industry. 2:16:31.080 --> 2:16:33.920 Some of these folks have panicked and insisted that Chinese 2:16:33.959 --> 2:16:37.520 government propaganda is behind the growth and opposition to data centers. 2:16:37.959 --> 2:16:40.960 The New York Times published a piece by sociologist Tressy 2:16:41.080 --> 2:16:44.320 McMillan Cottam, who argued that Democrats need to make the 2:16:44.360 --> 2:16:47.520 issue of data centers their issue because she believes that 2:16:47.560 --> 2:16:50.760 these protests could have a significant impact on the midterms, 2:16:50.800 --> 2:16:53.680 and in twenty twenty eight, in her column, she states 2:16:53.720 --> 2:16:56.440 that she wasn't initially sold on the value of data 2:16:56.480 --> 2:16:59.560 center protests, but time around activists convinced her that she'd 2:16:59.600 --> 2:17:01.840 been wrong, in part because this was not an issue 2:17:01.840 --> 2:17:05.840 that inherently drew urban or suburban or rural voters together, 2:17:05.920 --> 2:17:08.360 but all of them like it didn't inherently pull it 2:17:08.480 --> 2:17:11.880 Republican or Democratic voters, and thus it was a way 2:17:11.879 --> 2:17:15.640 to bring people together and get them working together uncommon cause, 2:17:15.720 --> 2:17:18.560 which is a really beneficial thing to do if you're 2:17:18.560 --> 2:17:22.080 trying to pull people closer into like a broader political 2:17:22.160 --> 2:17:25.320 alignment with you. And I would add to that point, 2:17:25.560 --> 2:17:27.520 just based on my own research and what I've seen, 2:17:28.000 --> 2:17:30.520 I feel like the fight against data centers is something 2:17:30.560 --> 2:17:32.640 that has what I like to call a high likelihood 2:17:32.640 --> 2:17:36.880 of fundamentalism in it, or HLF, and an HLF issue 2:17:36.920 --> 2:17:39.480 is a kind of political fight that if you get 2:17:39.560 --> 2:17:42.480 drawn into it, you're really likely to become some kind 2:17:42.520 --> 2:17:45.200 of fundamentalist on the matter. And abortion would be a 2:17:45.240 --> 2:17:47.440 good example of this sort of issue, right. That's why 2:17:47.440 --> 2:17:50.720 back in the nineteen seventies the Republican Party adopted abortion 2:17:50.800 --> 2:17:53.680 as a central concern, because if you get someone to 2:17:53.680 --> 2:17:57.840 become an anti abortion activist, they'll vote just based on 2:17:58.000 --> 2:18:00.840 that right. And if one party is against abortion and 2:18:00.879 --> 2:18:03.680 one parties for it, they'll never consider the party that 2:18:03.760 --> 2:18:06.400 is even open minded to it being legal in some 2:18:06.640 --> 2:18:09.959 limited sense, right, they become an absolutist on the matter. 2:18:10.200 --> 2:18:12.720 These are great issues to pull people into like a 2:18:12.800 --> 2:18:14.840 voting block with, because if you can get them to 2:18:14.879 --> 2:18:17.560 associate that issue with your party, you can kind of 2:18:17.640 --> 2:18:20.800 immunize that chunk of your voter base from economic concerns 2:18:20.879 --> 2:18:24.160 or other points of attack, at least in theory. Now, 2:18:24.440 --> 2:18:27.720 different issues tend to create fundamentalists for different reasons. People 2:18:27.720 --> 2:18:31.359 who aren't organizing against data centers aren't doing it, usually 2:18:31.440 --> 2:18:34.360 because they think the idea of a data center is wrong. 2:18:34.800 --> 2:18:37.520 But many of them do believe that AI is evil 2:18:37.560 --> 2:18:40.320 and immoral, and AI is the reason that so many 2:18:40.360 --> 2:18:43.520 new data centers are going up. Many more people oppose 2:18:43.560 --> 2:18:45.920 new data centers for the specific reason they see them 2:18:45.920 --> 2:18:48.840 as a threat to their own personal environment and to 2:18:48.920 --> 2:18:51.320 their own power bills, and to the cleanliness of their 2:18:51.400 --> 2:18:54.680 own water and air. It may seem as if this 2:18:54.720 --> 2:18:56.520 is the kind of support that would tend to breed 2:18:56.640 --> 2:18:59.480 shallow activists. If you just don't want a data center 2:18:59.480 --> 2:19:01.880 in your hometown, that doesn't mean you give a fuck 2:19:01.920 --> 2:19:04.680 about one going up in Mississippi or wherever you don't live. 2:19:04.959 --> 2:19:07.840 After all, none of these people presumably cared about the 2:19:07.920 --> 2:19:10.160 data centers that had been going up five years ago, 2:19:10.280 --> 2:19:13.080 ten years ago, before the issue became salient to them. 2:19:13.520 --> 2:19:16.039 But as treci Cottam wrote, the realities of doing this 2:19:16.120 --> 2:19:18.200 kind of organism on the ground have a tendency to 2:19:18.240 --> 2:19:21.560 transcend the reasons individual start getting into the fight. 2:19:21.959 --> 2:19:22.560 Quote. 2:19:22.720 --> 2:19:25.520 I have been watching this new groundswall of discent firsthand 2:19:25.520 --> 2:19:28.560 and community meetings, organizing sessions, and civic trainings. Here in 2:19:28.600 --> 2:19:32.680 North Carolina. The resistance has lifelong joiners, alumni from environmental 2:19:32.680 --> 2:19:35.440 and housing movements, and young organizers. There are also a 2:19:35.440 --> 2:19:37.840 lot of people who have never dreamed of being disagreeable 2:19:37.840 --> 2:19:40.680 in public, much less considered joining a rock as social movement. 2:19:41.000 --> 2:19:43.200 The imminent risk of living next to a data center 2:19:43.240 --> 2:19:44.800 may be why they show up for a meeting, but 2:19:44.840 --> 2:19:47.920 they're committing to the issue for bigger, deeper reasons. Political 2:19:47.920 --> 2:19:51.560 corruption and corporate mouthfeasance make them feel politically impotent. Voicing 2:19:51.600 --> 2:19:54.920 their objections, sharing their anxieties with others, recalling politicians who 2:19:54.959 --> 2:19:57.720 override them, and in some cases beating the opposition is 2:19:57.760 --> 2:20:00.680 giving them something. Few politicians are offering a taste of 2:20:00.680 --> 2:20:05.560 political power. And we'll continue, but first, here's some ads, 2:20:15.959 --> 2:20:19.080 and we're back. I think it's really important to emphasize 2:20:19.360 --> 2:20:21.880 something that Cottam said at the end of that last quote, 2:20:21.879 --> 2:20:24.600 which is that part of why the anti data center 2:20:24.640 --> 2:20:26.880 movement is potent and why it tends to draw people 2:20:26.959 --> 2:20:29.520 in much deeper than maybe the initial shallowness of why 2:20:29.560 --> 2:20:32.080 they got in would suggest, is that it offers them 2:20:32.120 --> 2:20:34.440 a sense of political power and of agency, and an 2:20:34.480 --> 2:20:36.680 age in which people are being trained more and more 2:20:36.920 --> 2:20:39.280 to feel as if they have no agency. You can't 2:20:39.360 --> 2:20:42.640 stop this, you can't fight this, or alternatively, this guy 2:20:42.720 --> 2:20:44.080 will do the fighting for you. 2:20:44.200 --> 2:20:44.400 Right. 2:20:44.959 --> 2:20:47.280 People are getting it from all sides wherever they actually 2:20:47.360 --> 2:20:50.480 land in the political aisle, and that's quite frankly, not 2:20:50.720 --> 2:20:53.600 very much fun. It's really fun to feel like you're 2:20:53.600 --> 2:20:55.720 a part of a movement like this that's kicking ass 2:20:55.760 --> 2:20:58.760 and taking names. Now. I don't share the long term 2:20:58.760 --> 2:21:01.200 goals that led Cottom to that article, at least not 2:21:01.280 --> 2:21:03.000 all of them. I get the sense that she wants 2:21:03.080 --> 2:21:05.760 to give the Democratic Party a powerful new long term 2:21:05.840 --> 2:21:08.720 voting block. I don't care so much about that now. 2:21:08.760 --> 2:21:11.160 I do, of course, want to see the Republican Party 2:21:11.200 --> 2:21:14.760 beaten electorally, and more Democratic votes is the only current 2:21:14.800 --> 2:21:17.440 way to do that. But the Democratic Party is not 2:21:17.560 --> 2:21:20.920 morally or logistically capable of doing anything but betraying these 2:21:20.959 --> 2:21:23.520 people in the long run. I really do believe that 2:21:24.040 --> 2:21:26.360 the reason why is the reason why the party has 2:21:26.400 --> 2:21:29.920 been incredibly slow to embrace these activists in any cohesive fashion. 2:21:30.320 --> 2:21:34.600 This movement is death for Silicon Valley, and Silicon Valley 2:21:34.640 --> 2:21:37.200 has a lot of fucking money. And when I say death, 2:21:37.360 --> 2:21:40.600 don't think I'm exaggerate. Data Center Watch is calculated that 2:21:40.640 --> 2:21:43.240 the total value of data centers blocked in early twenty 2:21:43.320 --> 2:21:45.280 twenty six. This is just the first three months of 2:21:45.280 --> 2:21:47.879 this year, was around one hundred and thirty billion dollars, 2:21:48.080 --> 2:21:49.960 compared to a total of one hundred and fifty six 2:21:50.000 --> 2:21:54.080 billion dollars in projects blocked in all of twenty twenty five. Now, 2:21:54.280 --> 2:21:57.080 a huge month last year for data construction expenses in 2:21:57.080 --> 2:21:59.880 the US was last Juli, which was actually a historic month, 2:22:00.040 --> 2:22:03.440 and that represented about fourteen billion dollars in expenses. So 2:22:03.520 --> 2:22:07.240 the value of the projects that have been stopped are significant, 2:22:07.400 --> 2:22:10.560 even in tech industry terms. More to the point, nearly 2:22:10.600 --> 2:22:13.879 all the money that underlies and underwrites these corporations and 2:22:13.920 --> 2:22:17.680 their owners is fake. Elon Musk could not produce a 2:22:17.720 --> 2:22:20.920 trillion dollars of real, liquid US dollars if he wanted to, 2:22:21.240 --> 2:22:23.720 because that simply is not how assets work. Most of 2:22:23.720 --> 2:22:26.080 his wealth is in stock valuation, and those stocks are 2:22:26.120 --> 2:22:28.400 worth what they're worth because of consumer sentiment as much 2:22:28.400 --> 2:22:32.320 as anything objectively real. The entire AI bubble is being 2:22:32.440 --> 2:22:35.080 underwritten by the belief that this will be worth it. 2:22:35.400 --> 2:22:37.840 There are trillions in value here, and we just need 2:22:37.840 --> 2:22:39.920 to spend a few trillion more to unlock them. 2:22:40.280 --> 2:22:40.800 None of that. 2:22:40.800 --> 2:22:43.120 Value can be unlocked without data centers, and if you 2:22:43.200 --> 2:22:45.240 throw a wrench in their plans to build more, you 2:22:45.240 --> 2:22:48.840 can hobble the whole effort. Any delay or serious setback 2:22:49.080 --> 2:22:52.440 creates the risk of a panic, and panic is their 2:22:52.640 --> 2:22:57.000 greatest enemy. All it takes is one sufficiently disastrous crash 2:22:57.240 --> 2:23:00.840 to kill many of these big overvalued companies. SpaceX and 2:23:00.879 --> 2:23:04.200 Anthropic and OpenAI and Microsoft and Meta can't all survive 2:23:04.240 --> 2:23:07.359 a market collapse, just as they won't sadly all die, 2:23:07.680 --> 2:23:11.320 nor can their billionaire bosses all remain masters of the universe. 2:23:11.640 --> 2:23:13.520 If they fall off their perch in a ray that 2:23:13.600 --> 2:23:16.240 shatters the global economy. We won't even have to bring 2:23:16.280 --> 2:23:18.440 all of these guys to court. Some of them will 2:23:18.440 --> 2:23:21.560 get done and by their former friends overseas. There's a 2:23:21.600 --> 2:23:24.240 reason why some VC types have already started trying to 2:23:24.280 --> 2:23:27.879 describe anti data center activism as terroristic. They are in 2:23:27.879 --> 2:23:31.800 fact terrified of it. This segment from an ArsTechnica article 2:23:31.800 --> 2:23:34.000 by Ashley Bellinger should give you an idea of what 2:23:34.040 --> 2:23:34.760 I'm discussing. 2:23:34.920 --> 2:23:35.560 Quote. 2:23:35.680 --> 2:23:38.520 The researchers suggested that the back half of twenty twenty 2:23:38.520 --> 2:23:41.400 five marked a turning point as data center opposition emerged 2:23:41.400 --> 2:23:44.080 as a national level narrative that showed the AI industry 2:23:44.120 --> 2:23:47.160 can no longer see the fights as individual zoning disputes. 2:23:47.360 --> 2:23:51.240 It is now reshaping elections, regulation, and site viability nationwide. 2:23:51.320 --> 2:23:54.840 Data Center Watch reported last year, where before officials were 2:23:54.840 --> 2:23:59.200 criticized for quietly signing deals without discussing construction with nearby residents, 2:23:59.440 --> 2:24:01.959 now they're in encountering backlash before any deal is in 2:24:02.000 --> 2:24:05.200 the books. Data Center Watch found in some cases, research 2:24:05.280 --> 2:24:09.080 is reported opposition mobilized before any project was officially filed. 2:24:09.320 --> 2:24:11.440 The mere rumor of a data center was enough to 2:24:11.440 --> 2:24:16.199 trigger organize resistance. Now, folks, when you hit this level 2:24:16.240 --> 2:24:19.240 of cultural inflection with a movement, you are in an 2:24:19.240 --> 2:24:23.440 extremely powerful but also very dangerous position. There's a reason 2:24:23.440 --> 2:24:26.360 that Steve Bannon's also made waves recently by encouraging his 2:24:26.440 --> 2:24:29.119 side to start reaching out to the anti data center people. 2:24:29.400 --> 2:24:31.680 He knows this energy can be co opted, or at 2:24:31.760 --> 2:24:34.320 least he believes it can. For my part, I want 2:24:34.320 --> 2:24:36.360 to see this energy harnessed. I want to see it 2:24:36.400 --> 2:24:39.840 burn brightly like the working flame of an oxyocettylene torch, 2:24:40.080 --> 2:24:42.560 because I want to see it used to cut directly 2:24:42.560 --> 2:24:45.240 into the belly of the industry that I hate. The 2:24:45.280 --> 2:24:47.200 best way for us to do this right now is 2:24:47.240 --> 2:24:50.160 to create as many moments as possible where projects to 2:24:50.160 --> 2:24:53.520 construct new data centers clash with protesters. Each of these 2:24:53.560 --> 2:24:56.160 conflicts has the potential to spark a panic in the market, 2:24:56.320 --> 2:24:59.080 and every piece of bad press contributes to the overall 2:24:59.160 --> 2:25:03.199 weight of public opinion and expectation against AI and against 2:25:03.200 --> 2:25:06.120 big tech. We never know which piece will be the 2:25:06.120 --> 2:25:09.960 one that breaks this current incarnation of the industry. The 2:25:10.080 --> 2:25:11.840 name of the game for us, then, is to create 2:25:11.840 --> 2:25:14.160 as many moments as we can that endanger the future 2:25:14.160 --> 2:25:16.360 of this market and the industry behind it. And we 2:25:16.440 --> 2:25:20.240 can do that entirely legally by forcing them to confront reality. 2:25:20.640 --> 2:25:23.200 None of these data center projects are sold to towns 2:25:23.240 --> 2:25:26.400 and cities based on real, accurate information about how they 2:25:26.440 --> 2:25:30.000 will impact the environment and the local community. One good 2:25:30.000 --> 2:25:32.640 example of this recently from the United States is a 2:25:32.680 --> 2:25:35.720 story earlier this year about a data center project in 2:25:35.760 --> 2:25:39.840 box Elder County, Utah. The proposed buildings together would have 2:25:39.879 --> 2:25:43.160 been three times the size of Manhattan and stretched across 2:25:43.240 --> 2:25:47.400 multiple sites. The project was championed by celebrity billionaire Kevin O'Leary, 2:25:47.440 --> 2:25:49.920 who was also the VC behind it, for a separate 2:25:50.000 --> 2:25:53.280 article in Ours Technica, quote residents' top concern was the 2:25:53.280 --> 2:25:56.200 straight out data center project draining local waters, and they 2:25:56.200 --> 2:25:58.440 were willing to pay to protect them, most especially the 2:25:58.520 --> 2:26:01.600 vulnerable Great Salt Lake. Many locals paid a fifteen dollars 2:26:01.640 --> 2:26:04.160 fee to register comments to block the transfer of nineteen 2:26:04.240 --> 2:26:06.440 hundred acre feet of water from a ranch to the 2:26:06.480 --> 2:26:10.240 hyperscale data center. Other concerns include electricity bills rising and 2:26:10.280 --> 2:26:13.680 potential risks to air quality, local wildlife and land. Venture 2:26:13.720 --> 2:26:16.520 capitalist Kevin O'Leary, chair of o Leery Digital and Shark 2:26:16.560 --> 2:26:19.440 Tank Investor, is behind the construction of the project. He 2:26:19.480 --> 2:26:21.920 told a local ABC affiliate that he regrets not working 2:26:21.959 --> 2:26:24.320 with state officials to be more transparent about the project 2:26:24.320 --> 2:26:27.240 from the beginning. We really screwed it up, O'Leary said, 2:26:27.280 --> 2:26:30.000 while confirming he was not expecting this intense kind of 2:26:30.040 --> 2:26:32.640 blowback from the public. He claimed that he and state 2:26:32.680 --> 2:26:35.640 officials anticipated that people would be excited about the major 2:26:35.720 --> 2:26:38.520 local investment and made huge mistakes by not involving the 2:26:38.520 --> 2:26:41.920 public more and discussions based on that assumption. We pissed 2:26:41.920 --> 2:26:43.840 off a lot of people, and that's not the way 2:26:43.879 --> 2:26:48.039 I do business. O'Leary said, that's not now, even that 2:26:48.080 --> 2:26:51.880 he undeniably did business this way. I disagree, but that's 2:26:51.920 --> 2:26:56.000 beside the point. The resistance was successful. Now, the project 2:26:56.080 --> 2:26:59.240 wasn't killed entirely, but it has been massively scaled back 2:26:59.280 --> 2:27:02.560 and may yet on the vine. The fact that resistance 2:27:02.600 --> 2:27:05.080 to this huge project and many like it, has caused 2:27:05.080 --> 2:27:08.840 so much damage to the industry has prompted a scale response. 2:27:09.480 --> 2:27:11.680 In late May and early June of twenty twenty six, 2:27:11.800 --> 2:27:13.520 I noticed a drip and then a flood of new 2:27:13.600 --> 2:27:17.320 articles and viral content critical of the anti data center protests. 2:27:17.800 --> 2:27:19.920 One good example of this would be a June tenth 2:27:20.040 --> 2:27:23.080 article on the website bar Chart by Nash Riggins. It 2:27:23.120 --> 2:27:26.000 was titled data centers get a bad rap for using 2:27:26.040 --> 2:27:28.800 too much water and energy. It turns out almonds suck 2:27:28.879 --> 2:27:33.440 up even more now. In this incredibly snotty little shit 2:27:33.480 --> 2:27:36.160 of an article, Nash is reporting on the fact that 2:27:36.640 --> 2:27:40.400 a bunch of pro AI influencers had with shocking coordination, 2:27:40.720 --> 2:27:44.720 started posting online responding to complaints about data center water 2:27:44.840 --> 2:27:47.080 usage by pointing out how wasteful it really is to 2:27:47.120 --> 2:27:49.400 grow almonds. You know, the almond industry uses even more 2:27:49.440 --> 2:27:52.680 water than AI does. And you know, if you want 2:27:52.720 --> 2:27:55.320 a good response to that, just say, sure, put them 2:27:55.320 --> 2:27:55.959 out of business. 2:27:56.280 --> 2:27:56.800 Fuck them. 2:27:57.760 --> 2:28:00.400 Another popular article in this genre was a blog post 2:28:00.440 --> 2:28:03.400 by Andy Masley. He critiqued the argument that AI was 2:28:03.480 --> 2:28:06.720 particularly wasteful by making arguments like this for an interview 2:28:06.760 --> 2:28:10.000 with him on azfamily dot com. Almost all of that 2:28:10.040 --> 2:28:13.160 one point seven trillion gallons of water per year, specifically 2:28:13.200 --> 2:28:15.199 water that is withdrawn in the return to the source, 2:28:15.320 --> 2:28:18.080 Masley told me, referring to a widely cited estimate from 2:28:18.160 --> 2:28:21.360 Karen How's Empire of Ai. The book claimed surging AI 2:28:21.400 --> 2:28:23.960 demand could use up to one point seven trillion gallons 2:28:23.959 --> 2:28:26.760 of fresh water globally by twenty twenty seven, or half 2:28:26.800 --> 2:28:29.920 the water annually withdrawn in the UK. Masley says the 2:28:29.920 --> 2:28:32.760 word use in that sentence is misleading. Data centers do 2:28:32.800 --> 2:28:35.360 evaporate most of the water they use on site for cooling, 2:28:35.520 --> 2:28:37.879 but on site use represents only about twenty percent of 2:28:37.879 --> 2:28:40.480 their total water footprint. The other eighty percent comes from 2:28:40.480 --> 2:28:43.119 power plants that heat water to spin turbines. That water 2:28:43.200 --> 2:28:46.840 is then returned, mostly unchanged, to its source. Masley's viral 2:28:46.879 --> 2:28:48.680 post got him interviewed by The New York Times and 2:28:48.680 --> 2:28:50.560 earned a correction from the author of the book, But 2:28:50.600 --> 2:28:53.440 his critiques about specific claims made there shouldn't be seen 2:28:53.440 --> 2:28:56.840 as having any overall legitimacy to the broader argument about 2:28:56.920 --> 2:28:59.240 data center water use. For one thing, he acts as 2:28:59.320 --> 2:29:02.960 if all data centers function the same way basically, both 2:29:03.000 --> 2:29:04.560 in terms of how they are powered and in terms 2:29:04.600 --> 2:29:06.640 of how they do cooling, and thus you can make 2:29:06.640 --> 2:29:08.920 the kind of assumptions about water use that is making 2:29:09.160 --> 2:29:12.600 and you just fucking can't now. The Environmental and Energy 2:29:12.640 --> 2:29:15.680 Study Institute has published an expanse of analysis of data 2:29:15.720 --> 2:29:18.440 centers and water consumption. They point out that this is 2:29:18.480 --> 2:29:21.200 all much more complex than Masley's quote might lead you 2:29:21.240 --> 2:29:25.320 to believe, and I'm going to read from that article quote. 2:29:25.440 --> 2:29:27.800 In the context of data centers, water consumption refers to 2:29:27.840 --> 2:29:30.560 the amount of water withdrawn from blue or gray sources 2:29:30.600 --> 2:29:33.680 minus the water discharged by the centers, primarily warm water 2:29:33.760 --> 2:29:36.600 left over from cooling the it racks. The consumed water 2:29:36.680 --> 2:29:39.160 is generally the water that evaporates or is otherwise taken 2:29:39.160 --> 2:29:42.080 out of immediate human usage. Withdrawal of fresh water from 2:29:42.200 --> 2:29:45.359 local streams or underground aquifers may lead to aquifer exhaustion, 2:29:45.600 --> 2:29:49.520 particularly in water stressed areas. Approximately eighty percent of the water, 2:29:49.600 --> 2:29:52.879 typically fresh water withdrawn by data centers, evaporates, with the 2:29:52.879 --> 2:29:56.800 remaining water discharge into municipal wastewater facilities. The large volume 2:29:56.840 --> 2:29:59.440 of waste water from data centers may overwhelm existing local 2:29:59.520 --> 2:30:02.560 facilities which were not designed to handle such a high volume. 2:30:03.480 --> 2:30:05.400 And again, one of the things that Masley tends to 2:30:05.400 --> 2:30:08.640 ignore is that even when you're putting this water back 2:30:08.680 --> 2:30:10.800 into the system quote unquote, that doesn't mean it's going 2:30:10.800 --> 2:30:12.840 back to the aquifers that it was pulled out of. 2:30:12.879 --> 2:30:14.920 It doesn't mean that it's going back into the same way, 2:30:14.959 --> 2:30:19.080 which can still cause massive issues. Now, how water efficient 2:30:19.120 --> 2:30:21.560 a data center is is going to vary depending on 2:30:21.600 --> 2:30:24.240 the climate of its location. But because these tend to 2:30:24.240 --> 2:30:26.720 require a lot of space, many are built in places 2:30:26.720 --> 2:30:30.080 where land is cheap. Those places are often hot and dry, 2:30:30.320 --> 2:30:33.720 like Utah and Wyoming. Data centers and hotter climates use 2:30:33.720 --> 2:30:37.160 more water. Data centers specifically built for the AI industry 2:30:37.200 --> 2:30:40.440 also have higher chip density, which requires more cooling, which 2:30:40.520 --> 2:30:43.560 uses more water. As time goes on, These increased demands 2:30:43.640 --> 2:30:45.760 lead to more and more being demanded of the local 2:30:45.800 --> 2:30:49.279 areas that agree to host data centers. Since data centers 2:30:49.280 --> 2:30:52.480 don't lend themselves to any other industries or create very 2:30:52.480 --> 2:30:56.400 many jobs, this often leaves local communities dependent upon them, 2:30:56.600 --> 2:30:58.640 which means they have no choice but to say yes 2:30:58.680 --> 2:31:02.760 to ever harsher environmental demands. I'm not creating a hypothetical here. 2:31:02.920 --> 2:31:05.280 This has happened over and over again, and I'm going 2:31:05.320 --> 2:31:08.000 to read again from that article by EESI dot org. 2:31:08.640 --> 2:31:11.480 Northern Virginia is considered the world capital for data centers, 2:31:11.520 --> 2:31:15.600 with over three hundred operational data centers spread across four counties. Collectively, 2:31:15.680 --> 2:31:18.360 all data centers in Northern Virginia consumed close to two 2:31:18.400 --> 2:31:21.000 billion gallons of water in twenty twenty three, a sixty 2:31:21.040 --> 2:31:25.080 three percent increase from twenty nineteen. Luton County, with approximately 2:31:25.080 --> 2:31:28.360 two hundred operational data centers, used about nine hundred million 2:31:28.360 --> 2:31:31.360 gallons of water in twenty twenty three. This has led Lutenwater, 2:31:31.480 --> 2:31:34.440 the county's fresh water authority, to rely heavily on potable 2:31:34.440 --> 2:31:38.279 water for data centers rather than reclaimed water. Now activists 2:31:38.320 --> 2:31:41.200 looking for cautionary tales about what data center addiction could 2:31:41.200 --> 2:31:43.880 do to an area should look no further than Northern Virginia. 2:31:44.320 --> 2:31:47.400 The region started saying yes to such development decades ago, 2:31:47.440 --> 2:31:50.879 when the industry was very much different. Back then, AOL 2:31:51.000 --> 2:31:52.840 was based there and their data center was part of 2:31:52.879 --> 2:31:55.840 an overall campus that employed more than five thousand people 2:31:56.200 --> 2:31:58.920 per an article by the Lincoln Institute. The campus has 2:31:58.920 --> 2:32:02.039 since been demolished. Three large data center facilities are being 2:32:02.080 --> 2:32:04.280 built on the site. There's a big fence around it 2:32:04.320 --> 2:32:07.600 for security purposes, so it's totally isolated from the community now, 2:32:07.640 --> 2:32:09.400 and it's only going to employ about one hundred to 2:32:09.400 --> 2:32:11.560 one hundred and fifty people on the same piece of land. 2:32:11.920 --> 2:32:15.160 That's the difference. That's a quote from a local resident, 2:32:15.520 --> 2:32:18.800 and well here from some other local residents. But first, 2:32:19.160 --> 2:32:32.959 here's ads and we're back now. I've mostly discussed the 2:32:32.959 --> 2:32:35.720 fight against data centers thus far as an American thing, 2:32:36.160 --> 2:32:39.240 and it isn't. I think it is particularly relevant to 2:32:39.280 --> 2:32:42.080 our upcoming elections in a way that deserves particular attention. 2:32:42.200 --> 2:32:44.320 But this is a global fight. And it is a 2:32:44.360 --> 2:32:47.000 global fight not just because people hate AI, but because 2:32:47.080 --> 2:32:49.520 data centers and the AI they enable have come to 2:32:49.560 --> 2:32:52.039 symbolize the tech elite who have bought our world and 2:32:52.080 --> 2:32:54.200 who are in the process of burning it to the ground. 2:32:54.760 --> 2:32:58.120 Hatred of these people should know no geographical boundary, and 2:32:58.160 --> 2:33:01.240 this presents the possibility of internettional outreach as well as 2:33:01.280 --> 2:33:05.080 collaboration and strategizing. As an example, I'll discuss a small 2:33:05.080 --> 2:33:08.040 community in Romania, Mishli, which is located in one of 2:33:08.080 --> 2:33:11.200 the poorest sections of the country. In twenty twenty, they 2:33:11.200 --> 2:33:13.840 said hello to a team from Cluster Power who wanted 2:33:13.840 --> 2:33:16.440 to construct a data center in the area. The mayor 2:33:16.480 --> 2:33:18.880 gave a welcoming speech that should sound familiar to many 2:33:18.920 --> 2:33:21.480 of you. We are incredibly proud to have an investor 2:33:21.520 --> 2:33:23.600 on board and to see people talking about the data 2:33:23.640 --> 2:33:26.439 center in Mishli. The company contributes to the local economy 2:33:26.440 --> 2:33:28.680 by paying taxes here and has chosen this area as 2:33:28.720 --> 2:33:32.120 its headquarters. So that all sounds great, But I found 2:33:32.120 --> 2:33:35.480 an article for algorithm Watch that notes quote no documentation 2:33:35.680 --> 2:33:38.879 was provided to verify the tax revenue actually generated for 2:33:39.000 --> 2:33:42.320 the commune. A June of twenty twenty four, only ten 2:33:42.480 --> 2:33:45.440 jobs had been created, compared to at least three hundred 2:33:45.520 --> 2:33:46.560 that had been promised. 2:33:46.879 --> 2:33:47.800 Now you can find. 2:33:47.640 --> 2:33:49.640 Stories that are almost identical to this all over the 2:33:49.760 --> 2:33:52.480 United States, but also elsewhere in Europe, like the Netherlands 2:33:52.480 --> 2:33:55.800 and Germany, and in many other places besides. Everywhere these 2:33:55.800 --> 2:33:59.119 companies do business, they leave behind broken promises and lies, 2:33:59.320 --> 2:34:02.280 like a trail of gasoline reeking behind them as they go. 2:34:02.720 --> 2:34:05.160 Why shouldn't we drop a match and watch the fire 2:34:05.280 --> 2:34:08.840 catch them. There are dangers to embracing a movement based 2:34:08.879 --> 2:34:12.240 around opposing the construction of infrastructure that is necessary for 2:34:12.280 --> 2:34:15.640 a lot of modern life, But I might argue those 2:34:15.720 --> 2:34:18.360 dangers look a lot less scary if we recognize that 2:34:18.520 --> 2:34:22.880 necessary for modern current life and necessary for life itself 2:34:23.200 --> 2:34:26.600 aren't necessarily the same thing. In much the same way 2:34:26.640 --> 2:34:29.000 as I would give up my ability to buy pistachios 2:34:29.000 --> 2:34:31.920 and almonds year round to avoid California not having water, 2:34:32.360 --> 2:34:35.320 I'm willing to reconsider what miracles of daily life are 2:34:35.360 --> 2:34:38.160 really worth the cost. If it turns out the cost 2:34:38.240 --> 2:34:41.360 is that high, and the scariest thing in the world 2:34:41.520 --> 2:34:44.640 to the people who currently run it is this, perhaps 2:34:44.959 --> 2:35:00.120 one day soon everyone will start to feel this way. 2:35:02.160 --> 2:35:04.360 There you go, The passion fucking fixed it. 2:35:04.760 --> 2:35:06.280 And that's what I've always been. 2:35:06.400 --> 2:35:07.400 While I've never said. 2:35:07.200 --> 2:35:09.960 That there's one thing that sd CODs know. It's passion. 2:35:10.360 --> 2:35:11.640 Passion is negotiable. 2:35:11.680 --> 2:35:16.520 Deadlines are not welcome to Go ahead, guy, this is 2:35:16.560 --> 2:35:17.440 it could happen here. 2:35:17.520 --> 2:35:21.440 Executive Disorder or her weekly discast covering what's happening in 2:35:21.480 --> 2:35:23.600 the White House, the crumbling world, and what it means 2:35:23.600 --> 2:35:27.840 for you. I'm Garrison Davis today, joined by Miawong, James Stout, 2:35:27.920 --> 2:35:31.120 and Robert Evans. This episode recovering the week of June 2:35:31.160 --> 2:35:35.320 tenth to June seventeenth. Some small news items to start 2:35:35.440 --> 2:35:38.640 Elon Musk has become the world's first trillionaire. 2:35:39.800 --> 2:35:41.440 Oh good, at least on paper? 2:35:41.800 --> 2:35:42.039 Yeah? 2:35:42.280 --> 2:35:42.680 What other? 2:35:43.120 --> 2:35:45.720 There's no other kind of trillionair. It's all on paper. 2:35:46.120 --> 2:35:48.080 It's a billionaire. Yeah yeah. 2:35:48.480 --> 2:35:51.920 This is following SpaceX going public on the Nastak Stock Exchange. 2:35:52.440 --> 2:35:57.240 Eight hundred and sixty six billion dollars of Musk's wealth 2:35:57.320 --> 2:36:00.920 is now in SpaceX stock, and space itself is currently 2:36:01.000 --> 2:36:02.680 valued it over two trillion on the market. 2:36:03.560 --> 2:36:04.800 Not good, Yeah great. 2:36:05.480 --> 2:36:07.640 DHCHS has announced it will not comply with Virginia's new 2:36:07.680 --> 2:36:11.400 law prohibiting federal officers from wearing masks, and on June eleventh, 2:36:11.440 --> 2:36:14.560 the DJ filed the lawsuit against Virginia quote challenging their 2:36:14.640 --> 2:36:19.800 unconstitutional attempts to regulate federal law enforcement. The French government 2:36:19.920 --> 2:36:25.360 suspects the Israeli quote unquote elite influence cyber and technology 2:36:25.360 --> 2:36:31.080 firm Black Core, of interfering in elections in France, Scotland, 2:36:31.160 --> 2:36:34.680 and the New York City mayoral race by orchestrating online 2:36:34.720 --> 2:36:40.000 smear and disformation campaigns against left wing pro Palestine politicians in. 2:36:40.040 --> 2:36:40.959 Fucking welcome New Uile? 2:36:41.080 --> 2:36:41.400 Did they? 2:36:41.879 --> 2:36:44.120 And I wanted to include this because it literally just 2:36:44.160 --> 2:36:48.280 broke as we are recording. But Representative Jamie Raskin, a 2:36:48.360 --> 2:36:52.080 Democrat from Maryland, put out a letter today that states, quote, 2:36:52.080 --> 2:36:54.680 we have been receiving troubling reports that and this is 2:36:54.680 --> 2:36:57.039 too cash Betel, that you may be using part of 2:36:57.040 --> 2:36:59.400 the budget of the Federal Bureau of Investigation as a 2:36:59.440 --> 2:37:01.840 personal slow fund to make tens or hundreds of thousands 2:37:01.879 --> 2:37:05.279 of dollars in unlawful bonus payments to loyalist MAGA henchmen 2:37:05.320 --> 2:37:08.400 who have engaged in misconduct. And I'm going to quote 2:37:08.400 --> 2:37:11.760 here from an article on MS now by Kindlanian quote 2:37:11.800 --> 2:37:14.320 Committee Democrats have information that Betel has issued more than 2:37:14.320 --> 2:37:17.160 one million dollars in awards, the letter says. The letter 2:37:17.200 --> 2:37:19.280 says that the money went to special agents serving on 2:37:19.360 --> 2:37:22.680 his director's advisory team, which Raskin's letter describes as a 2:37:22.760 --> 2:37:24.800 curated group of agents who are willing to carry out 2:37:24.800 --> 2:37:28.480 your unlawful and partisan orders. There's very little else known 2:37:28.640 --> 2:37:30.920 other than that allegedly some of these payments were made 2:37:30.959 --> 2:37:34.039 so rapidly that they bounced back like he was sending. 2:37:33.800 --> 2:37:34.480 Money to people. 2:37:34.800 --> 2:37:36.000 That's when they are alleging. 2:37:36.400 --> 2:37:36.959 I'm going to. 2:37:36.920 --> 2:37:39.080 Assume Cash is going to deny this, and so will 2:37:39.120 --> 2:37:41.440 the FBI. I don't think they've even had time to 2:37:41.480 --> 2:37:44.640 make a response yet. The FBI has not responded for 2:37:44.680 --> 2:37:47.520 comment by ms NOW, at least according to their article, 2:37:47.600 --> 2:37:48.480 this just dropped. 2:37:48.520 --> 2:37:49.480 So that's fun for. 2:37:49.520 --> 2:37:50.000 Us all to know. 2:37:51.200 --> 2:37:53.360 Yeah, yeah, all right, so cool. 2:37:54.280 --> 2:37:55.600 So I just felt like that was good. 2:37:56.000 --> 2:38:01.959 Yeah, great, lead corrupt administration in history. 2:38:02.760 --> 2:38:06.119 Yeah, Okay, let's talk about a bunch of other stuff 2:38:06.120 --> 2:38:07.240 that isn't also great. 2:38:07.440 --> 2:38:07.760 Yeah. 2:38:07.840 --> 2:38:10.680 Donald Trump issued a broad executive order on Friday which 2:38:10.720 --> 2:38:14.440 rescinded previous orders by the Carter and Nicks administrations limiting 2:38:14.440 --> 2:38:18.720 offered vehicle access to public lands, although it doesn't immediately 2:38:18.840 --> 2:38:21.920 change the rules. This has the potential to do massive 2:38:21.920 --> 2:38:24.880 and irreparable damage to public lands by taking away the 2:38:26.120 --> 2:38:28.680 pillars really on which they've built regulation and motor vehicle 2:38:28.760 --> 2:38:31.640 use of public land to the other public land thing. Now, 2:38:31.840 --> 2:38:35.160 friend of the show, Mike fucking Lee is back again, 2:38:35.440 --> 2:38:38.520 trying to fuck up your public lands again. Fuck Mike Lee, 2:38:38.879 --> 2:38:41.400 Utah Senitor, if you're not familiar. So, there was a 2:38:41.440 --> 2:38:46.240 bipartisan Wildfire Prevention Act of twenty twenty five Fire Prevention 2:38:46.360 --> 2:38:49.800 Act that was going along smoothly in its little Senate 2:38:49.879 --> 2:38:54.039 journey until Mike Lee decided to put in a spoiler 2:38:54.080 --> 2:38:57.400 that would rescind the roadless Rule. We've spoken about the 2:38:57.480 --> 2:38:59.640 two thousand and one roadless rule before, so I'm not 2:38:59.680 --> 2:39:03.640 going to go into very great detail. I've spoken about 2:39:03.680 --> 2:39:07.039 Lee ad nauseum. Lee used his position of chair of 2:39:07.080 --> 2:39:10.039 this committee to insert this right, and in doing so, 2:39:11.000 --> 2:39:15.520 not only is Lee trying for a third time since 2:39:15.560 --> 2:39:20.240 twenty twenty five to sell off public lands, he is 2:39:20.280 --> 2:39:24.520 also probably ruining the future of the Wildfire Prevention Act, 2:39:24.720 --> 2:39:26.600 the funding that this will have, that the effect that 2:39:26.640 --> 2:39:30.720 this will have. It's now unlikely to pass because Mike 2:39:30.760 --> 2:39:33.440 Lee has spoiled it with his public land sell off shit. Again. 2:39:33.959 --> 2:39:36.280 People might recall Lee try to sell our public lands 2:39:36.360 --> 2:39:39.560 with parts of the Better the Better Business Bureau, No, 2:39:39.720 --> 2:39:43.600 the Big Beautiful Bill, the other BBB, and again when 2:39:43.640 --> 2:39:47.720 he attempted to justify motor vehicle use in wilderness. Garrison 2:39:47.760 --> 2:39:49.520 and I med an episode about that where he was 2:39:49.560 --> 2:39:52.000 talking about how you need roads in wilderness areas to 2:39:52.560 --> 2:39:55.400 allow border patrol to do border patrol stuff. The Forest 2:39:55.440 --> 2:39:57.920 Service had previously talked about rescinding the road this rule 2:39:58.000 --> 2:40:01.480 through like administrative rule chain that seems to have been 2:40:01.480 --> 2:40:03.840 an extremely unpopular choice, but that that process is still 2:40:03.920 --> 2:40:05.760 on going. But what Lee's trying to do here is 2:40:05.800 --> 2:40:08.480 lock it into legislation as opposed to something that another 2:40:08.840 --> 2:40:12.520 administration could change back. Finally, I guess it's all kind 2:40:12.520 --> 2:40:15.600 of public lands and related stuff for me. This week, 2:40:15.800 --> 2:40:19.080 Fish and Wildlife Service agents served a warrant on a 2:40:19.120 --> 2:40:22.840 property in New Mexico after two colored Mexican gray wolves, 2:40:22.959 --> 2:40:25.119 which are covered by the endangered Species that were killed. 2:40:25.360 --> 2:40:28.000 Calling to an Affidavid file in New Mexico. Both wolves 2:40:28.000 --> 2:40:30.440 were killed after being caught in the leg hole traps. 2:40:31.080 --> 2:40:33.680 One was left to die, the other was shot and 2:40:33.720 --> 2:40:37.119 then beaten in the head. I read this warrant today. 2:40:37.160 --> 2:40:39.199 It's kind of interesting. I saw something very very brief 2:40:39.200 --> 2:40:41.560 reporting on it, and Molly helped me find the warrant. 2:40:42.120 --> 2:40:45.440 The people on who the warrant was served on were 2:40:45.480 --> 2:40:47.520 horse breakers, but I think they worked on a family 2:40:47.600 --> 2:40:51.920 cattle ranch. It seems that the Fish and Wildlife Service 2:40:52.040 --> 2:40:55.080 agents set up cameras after the collars of the wolves 2:40:55.080 --> 2:40:57.360 told them that the wolves had died, and then they 2:40:57.520 --> 2:41:00.000 realized that they had remained in one area. It suggests 2:41:00.200 --> 2:41:02.520 that they had remained one area sometime then died I 2:41:02.600 --> 2:41:05.000 either had been trapped. They were able to set up 2:41:05.040 --> 2:41:07.640 cameras and film these guys recovering the traps, according to 2:41:07.680 --> 2:41:11.199 Jaffa David, and so they are now going to begin 2:41:11.280 --> 2:41:15.959 their prosecution. I guess well more from me. Fifteen people 2:41:15.959 --> 2:41:21.040 in Minnesota were indicted on criminal conspiracy charges for events 2:41:21.080 --> 2:41:24.720 and protests around the Whipple Federal Building and Fort Snelling. 2:41:25.680 --> 2:41:28.480 We covered this in great detail on a show that 2:41:28.640 --> 2:41:33.000 broadcast on Wednesday, the seventeenth of June, So if you'd 2:41:33.040 --> 2:41:34.960 like to know more about that. We got some comment 2:41:35.120 --> 2:41:38.960 from a couple of lawyers, and Margaret and I were 2:41:39.000 --> 2:41:42.920 present at one of the events that this indictment centers on, 2:41:43.040 --> 2:41:44.640 so we get some more insight there. 2:41:45.320 --> 2:41:49.279 For some election news, we still don't have right choice 2:41:49.640 --> 2:41:52.640 vote tallies in Maine for the governor's race there. I 2:41:52.640 --> 2:41:56.000 will keep an eye on that. But in Washington, DC, 2:41:56.680 --> 2:42:01.080 Democratic Socialist Denise Lewis George won the Democratic primary in 2:42:01.120 --> 2:42:04.000 the Washington d C mayoral race with fifty two point 2:42:04.160 --> 2:42:08.440 eight percent of the vote, and a DSA cadre member 2:42:08.560 --> 2:42:11.320 named a Perno Raj is in the lead for the 2:42:11.480 --> 2:42:15.080 Ward one City Council seat with about forty seven percent 2:42:15.200 --> 2:42:19.080 of the vote in the Democratic primary. Both candidates are 2:42:19.120 --> 2:42:23.279 not expected to face substantial opposition in the upcoming general election, 2:42:24.160 --> 2:42:27.480 so it looks like big wins for the DSA in Washington, 2:42:27.560 --> 2:42:32.199 d C. Last Tuesday. Robert California, Yes. 2:42:32.280 --> 2:42:33.120 What's going on with it? 2:42:33.200 --> 2:42:33.560 Robert? 2:42:33.560 --> 2:42:36.480 Why is it the way it is? In short? 2:42:36.959 --> 2:42:42.120 James, the sun So, California US House District fourteen is 2:42:42.200 --> 2:42:47.600 currently undergoing a special non partisan primary because Eric Swawell, 2:42:47.840 --> 2:42:51.880 friend of the Pod in the you know, joking sense, 2:42:51.959 --> 2:42:53.800 not literal sense, because we don't like him. 2:42:53.879 --> 2:42:57.440 Definitely, definitely not eemy of the enemy of the graced 2:42:57.680 --> 2:42:58.600 enemy of the pod. 2:42:59.200 --> 2:43:02.519 No longer can his job are avowed nemesis. 2:43:02.800 --> 2:43:05.119 Now, the fun thing about that is that Eric Swawall 2:43:05.560 --> 2:43:09.160 is genocide denier, and he is currently the number one 2:43:09.240 --> 2:43:11.480 person And you know this is just like the first 2:43:11.520 --> 2:43:15.320 round of voting. Is Aisha Wahab, who's at about forty 2:43:15.360 --> 2:43:17.480 two point six percent of the vote based on the 2:43:17.480 --> 2:43:21.360 most recent numbers I have. Melissa Hernandez is number two 2:43:21.440 --> 2:43:23.600 at about sixteen point eight percent of the vote. So 2:43:23.640 --> 2:43:28.400 Aish's got a sizeable lead here, and her politics are 2:43:28.520 --> 2:43:31.879 significantly better in some important ways than Eric Swawall's, including 2:43:31.879 --> 2:43:35.480 the fact that she is not a genocide denier. So 2:43:36.000 --> 2:43:39.400 that's kind of bracing. That's nice to see. Anyway, That's 2:43:39.400 --> 2:43:40.520 really all I've got to say. 2:43:41.480 --> 2:43:46.240 Yeah, So, in much bleaker news on Sunday, June fourteenth, 2:43:46.840 --> 2:43:50.400 police and Senatobia, Mississippi, shot and killed a one year 2:43:50.480 --> 2:43:54.600 old child named Cohen Wiley as they opened fire on 2:43:54.959 --> 2:43:57.800 a car in the parking lot of a Walmart. An 2:43:57.800 --> 2:44:00.160 adult who was in the car, who is a right 2:44:00.280 --> 2:44:03.680 just the child's mother, is described as quote critically injured 2:44:04.360 --> 2:44:06.640 after also being shot. 2:44:07.320 --> 2:44:07.920 I think it's. 2:44:07.760 --> 2:44:10.280 Important to hear what happened first year, I Cliff of Flessia, 2:44:10.600 --> 2:44:12.280 Whiley the mother of comb. 2:44:12.360 --> 2:44:17.240 Whiley, it was me, my son, and another friend of 2:44:17.320 --> 2:44:21.560 mine was at Walmart. As we was leaving out the Walmart, 2:44:22.560 --> 2:44:25.520 they tried to stop her, but I kept walking because 2:44:25.520 --> 2:44:27.680 it had nothing to do with me. By the time 2:44:27.760 --> 2:44:31.040 in my baby got in the car, she came and 2:44:31.120 --> 2:44:33.560 then they when we was bagging up, they was running 2:44:33.640 --> 2:44:37.200 out the come. I raised my baby up because they 2:44:37.640 --> 2:44:40.560 redrawed their gun. She had no tent. I raised my 2:44:40.640 --> 2:44:42.600 baby up trying to show them there. He was in 2:44:42.680 --> 2:44:45.480 the car. So she was bagging up and she hit 2:44:45.560 --> 2:44:48.040 a car as I was opening the door, so the 2:44:48.120 --> 2:44:49.880 doe flew back in. By the time I sat my 2:44:49.959 --> 2:44:52.800 baby down, it was like three to four shots. One 2:44:52.879 --> 2:44:56.120 of the shots hit him and his real cage, and 2:44:56.240 --> 2:44:58.879 the other shots hit her in her arm and her thigh. 2:45:00.080 --> 2:45:03.840 We lived and went to since help your hospital where 2:45:03.879 --> 2:45:06.040 he was pronounced did my god. 2:45:08.760 --> 2:45:11.240 Yeah, that is fucking heartbreaking. 2:45:11.480 --> 2:45:13.200 Yeah, that's just a nightmare. 2:45:14.120 --> 2:45:15.560 It's horrible. 2:45:16.280 --> 2:45:19.280 Yeah, it looks like Benjamin Crump's representing her, which is 2:45:19.360 --> 2:45:21.120 like that guy is a powerhouse. 2:45:21.640 --> 2:45:21.879 Yeah. 2:45:22.200 --> 2:45:26.360 Yeah, like any time you're trying to train people how 2:45:26.400 --> 2:45:28.920 to use firearms responsibly. One thing you have to drive 2:45:29.000 --> 2:45:32.440 home repeatedly is that like, bullets don't stop if you miss, 2:45:32.680 --> 2:45:37.120 and they don't necessarily stop just because you've hit the target. Yeah, 2:45:37.240 --> 2:45:40.040 and so you always need to be not just aware of, 2:45:40.160 --> 2:45:43.360 but paranoid about what's what's around you and around where 2:45:43.400 --> 2:45:46.440 you're shooting, if you're going to shoot. And police are 2:45:46.480 --> 2:45:48.440 trained to do the opposite of that. You know, they're 2:45:48.480 --> 2:45:51.120 trained that their lives mean more than the lives of infants. 2:45:51.360 --> 2:45:52.000 That's what this is. 2:45:52.520 --> 2:45:55.879 Yeah, it God, Yeah that video. 2:45:55.959 --> 2:45:59.320 By the way, p W reg so As was mentioned 2:45:59.360 --> 2:46:02.840 in the video, the cops were nominally responding to a 2:46:03.160 --> 2:46:07.720 claim of shoplifting. The Mississippi Bureau of Investigations, per the 2:46:07.760 --> 2:46:10.720 Mississippi Free Press, claims that the car was driving towards 2:46:10.800 --> 2:46:15.560 the officers. This is ereally similar to claims made by 2:46:15.640 --> 2:46:20.680 federal agents after the murder of a good. Police have 2:46:20.800 --> 2:46:23.400 yet to release bodycam footage. The footage we do have, 2:46:24.400 --> 2:46:28.040 it's not very good. Cell phone camera doesn't show the 2:46:28.120 --> 2:46:30.959 shooting itself, but shows the car driving away from officers. 2:46:31.120 --> 2:46:35.280 We also had some of the witnesses basically described the 2:46:35.320 --> 2:46:37.720 car like driving away from the officers and the officers shooting. 2:46:38.120 --> 2:46:40.600 But you're right, it's definitely following the trend that we've 2:46:40.680 --> 2:46:44.240 seen a lot with federal law enforcement, but not just them. Yeah, 2:46:44.280 --> 2:46:48.320 this is a local Yeah, of this idea like vehicle weaponization. Yeah, 2:46:48.520 --> 2:46:51.560 and that they have the ability to respond to quote 2:46:51.600 --> 2:46:54.720 unquote vehicle leapization with with lethal force. Yeah, or something 2:46:54.760 --> 2:46:57.039 we've seen claim a number of lives just this year. 2:46:58.440 --> 2:46:58.680 Yeah. 2:46:58.800 --> 2:47:01.200 And this is combining and we'll talk about this a 2:47:01.280 --> 2:47:02.960 bit more in a second, but this is combining with 2:47:03.080 --> 2:47:06.960 sort of the shoplifting panic to create this nightmare of 2:47:07.000 --> 2:47:11.440 a situation. Yeah, a police in Senatobia have a history 2:47:11.760 --> 2:47:14.400 of police violence. Here's from wrig again. 2:47:15.240 --> 2:47:15.520 Quote. 2:47:15.640 --> 2:47:18.120 Last year at the same Walmart, the department came under 2:47:18.200 --> 2:47:21.160 fire after a woman had a tser pulled on her 2:47:21.200 --> 2:47:23.560 and was tackled to the ground after the department claimed 2:47:23.600 --> 2:47:27.279 she illegally parked in a handicapped spot. The woman claims 2:47:27.320 --> 2:47:29.280 she had just dropped her grandmother off at the store. 2:47:29.800 --> 2:47:32.160 In twenty twenty three, the case of a ten year 2:47:32.200 --> 2:47:34.720 old boy made national news after he was detained for 2:47:34.920 --> 2:47:40.400 urinating in public in an attorney's office private parking lot. Yeah, 2:47:40.480 --> 2:47:44.880 so this is you know, this is Mississippi. This is 2:47:45.080 --> 2:47:47.920 a place where things like this have happened before. The 2:47:48.000 --> 2:47:50.080 fact that there was a woman like again last year 2:47:50.480 --> 2:47:55.000 who was tackled in this same parking lot by the 2:47:55.080 --> 2:48:00.560 police says a lot. Yeah, and continue in the trend 2:48:00.640 --> 2:48:03.360 of police violence. Yeah, the police tear gas protesters on 2:48:03.440 --> 2:48:06.840 Tuesday in the parking lot and like the same parking 2:48:06.879 --> 2:48:10.320 lot where protests were going on. All of this comes 2:48:10.400 --> 2:48:12.560 in the sort of context of the deployment of a 2:48:12.680 --> 2:48:16.520 nationwide panic about shoplifting, deployed by the right as part 2:48:16.560 --> 2:48:18.800 of their strategy to bolster support from the police and 2:48:18.959 --> 2:48:21.600 roll back the gains of the twenty twenty George Floyd Uprising. 2:48:22.560 --> 2:48:26.760 Everything about police killings has just just continued to get 2:48:26.840 --> 2:48:29.320 worse since the Sharp administration took power. We've had it 2:48:29.440 --> 2:48:32.600 now from federal agents, we've had it from the police 2:48:32.640 --> 2:48:34.720 in general, and as Gary was talking about earlier, Yeah, 2:48:34.760 --> 2:48:37.119 this is kind of this intersection of this panic about 2:48:37.160 --> 2:48:41.519 shoplifting combining with this panic about sort of vehicle weaponization 2:48:41.840 --> 2:48:44.320 and turning into the cops murdering a one year old. 2:48:45.080 --> 2:48:46.960 I think it's also worth noting in the context of 2:48:47.600 --> 2:48:51.000 this allegedly being about shoplifting that nobody involved, like no 2:48:51.080 --> 2:48:54.200 one who was in the car, which is the mother 2:48:54.360 --> 2:48:56.640 of the baby, and also the woman driving the car 2:48:56.720 --> 2:48:59.440 who the police had initially confronted in the story we 2:48:59.480 --> 2:49:03.680 heard earlier. Neither of them have been arrested. So yeah, yeah, 2:49:04.120 --> 2:49:06.039 I don't know. This is one of the worst stories 2:49:06.080 --> 2:49:10.680 for police shooting I've ever encountered. And yeah, yeah, protest 2:49:10.680 --> 2:49:13.560 presumably are going to continue tonight. This is again being 2:49:13.600 --> 2:49:17.680 recorded on Wednesday, June seventeenth. They may have escalated by 2:49:17.720 --> 2:49:18.480 the time you're hearing this. 2:49:19.240 --> 2:49:19.440 Yeah. 2:49:20.360 --> 2:49:20.520 Yeah. 2:49:20.560 --> 2:49:24.240 The cops in LA also killed a fucking a Golden Saint, 2:49:24.280 --> 2:49:27.680 Bernard doodle Oh this week. 2:49:27.959 --> 2:49:30.960 Not to equivocate these fucking cases, I guess this is 2:49:31.080 --> 2:49:31.800 just in the news. 2:49:32.000 --> 2:49:35.440 Yeah, absolutely not, no, no, this is just another incident 2:49:35.760 --> 2:49:38.840 of police shooting when they absolutely had no need to. 2:49:39.000 --> 2:49:39.120 Right. 2:49:39.360 --> 2:49:43.360 In this case, the lady had been watching the Knicks game. 2:49:44.160 --> 2:49:48.080 Somebody called to report screaming, which resulted in the cops 2:49:48.160 --> 2:49:50.640 coming and killing this person's dog. It's nowhere near the 2:49:50.680 --> 2:49:53.400 same as someone killing someone's child. I'm not suggesting that 2:49:53.600 --> 2:49:56.920 it's just yet another example that cops can just shoot 2:49:56.959 --> 2:49:59.440 first and ask questions later in this country, Yeah, six 2:49:59.600 --> 2:50:02.760 years after George Floyd was murdered. 2:50:03.240 --> 2:50:06.640 Yeah, and I think to close, one of the things 2:50:06.680 --> 2:50:09.240 that I always remember about that protest is every single 2:50:09.400 --> 2:50:12.680 city had their own list of names. 2:50:12.879 --> 2:50:13.080 Yeah. 2:50:14.040 --> 2:50:16.360 I don't know, we like we had our own in 2:50:16.480 --> 2:50:21.480 Chicago And yeah, I mean I'm immediately sort of like 2:50:21.920 --> 2:50:26.720 just thinking about the killing a time of rice and yeah, 2:50:27.000 --> 2:50:30.000 how we just continue to live in this country where 2:50:30.680 --> 2:50:36.240 the cops just murder black people constantly, And the only 2:50:36.320 --> 2:50:38.520 thing that's shanged since then is the police have more money. 2:50:39.480 --> 2:50:42.200 Yeah, and they're working to be able to murder other 2:50:42.280 --> 2:50:43.840 groups of people more often too. 2:50:44.400 --> 2:50:47.960 You know, the feds are expanding out and shooting white 2:50:47.959 --> 2:50:48.840 people in cold blood. 2:50:48.959 --> 2:50:53.200 Eventually the racism will be less noticeable. Yeah, if the 2:50:53.320 --> 2:50:57.160 violence just becomes more all encompassing. Yeah, that's the promise 2:50:57.240 --> 2:50:57.879 of the future. 2:50:58.200 --> 2:50:59.280 Yeah it won't. 2:50:59.320 --> 2:51:02.480 It'll still be noticeable, guys. Yeah that they're not going 2:51:02.520 --> 2:51:03.800 to come through on that promise either. 2:51:04.360 --> 2:51:09.560 Yeah, that's gonna say. Like this country, like after after Elicha. McLean, 2:51:10.160 --> 2:51:12.000 I feel like anyone who could watch it and be like, yeah, 2:51:12.000 --> 2:51:14.800 shit's going fine. We just at some point cops just 2:51:14.840 --> 2:51:16.119 to say we're never going to change. 2:51:17.000 --> 2:51:18.920 Yeah, and it's I'm going to guess the number of 2:51:18.920 --> 2:51:22.480 people who stumble onto our shows and don't already think like, yeah, 2:51:22.520 --> 2:51:24.040 the cops kill a lot of people they don't need 2:51:24.080 --> 2:51:27.000 to be killing. That's pretty low. So I feel like 2:51:27.080 --> 2:51:29.320 we preach into the we've done, we've we've we've done 2:51:29.320 --> 2:51:31.240 what we need to here like yeah, yeah, not not 2:51:31.360 --> 2:51:32.240 that it's not important. 2:51:33.160 --> 2:51:37.200 Nope, just said we'll go on a breakdown and come 2:51:37.320 --> 2:51:39.920 back to talk about Iran and sports. 2:51:40.879 --> 2:51:57.039 Yep, we are back, and we are back to report 2:51:57.360 --> 2:51:58.800 peace in our time. 2:51:58.920 --> 2:51:59.320 That's right. 2:52:00.080 --> 2:52:04.960 Old Trump did it somehow, somehow, he finally brought an 2:52:05.080 --> 2:52:08.720 end to a long, lingering conflict that he's started a 2:52:08.800 --> 2:52:09.480 couple of weeks. 2:52:12.760 --> 2:52:16.400 Yeah, calling him the peacemaker. 2:52:16.680 --> 2:52:19.119 This is this is like three or four days after 2:52:19.280 --> 2:52:22.760 like a really long bender, when like I'm like, wow, 2:52:23.040 --> 2:52:24.880 I actually I haven't gotten fucked up at all, and 2:52:24.920 --> 2:52:28.480 it's been like ninety six hours. You know, I think 2:52:28.520 --> 2:52:31.160 I've learned a couple of things about sobriety. I've reached 2:52:31.320 --> 2:52:34.439 like a new level of wisdom that's allowed me to transcend. 2:52:35.000 --> 2:52:37.800 Like that's that's that's how I what I compared to 2:52:37.879 --> 2:52:39.119 Donald Trump right now. 2:52:39.959 --> 2:52:44.520 Yep is he announced that quote oil will flow on 2:52:44.640 --> 2:52:47.720 both ends again for the region and the world. So 2:52:48.000 --> 2:52:51.320 we initially learned about this this deal via True Social Right, 2:52:51.400 --> 2:52:53.360 and I initially wrote this space on what we didn't know. 2:52:53.520 --> 2:52:57.040 Then this morning, after a lot of people complain that 2:52:57.120 --> 2:52:59.920 nobody knew the details of the deal, State Apartment spokesperson 2:53:00.040 --> 2:53:01.920 and read the text of the deal allowed to report 2:53:02.000 --> 2:53:05.040 us on a conference call. So this is a memorandum 2:53:05.080 --> 2:53:09.320 of understanding right the MU is titled quote Islamabad Memorandum 2:53:09.320 --> 2:53:11.720 of Understanding between the United States of America and Islamic 2:53:11.760 --> 2:53:15.520 Republic of Iran. It'll be signed on Friday. That that 2:53:15.560 --> 2:53:17.400 would be the day. If you hit US today comes out, 2:53:17.440 --> 2:53:19.800 that will be that day. It's already been electronically signed. 2:53:19.800 --> 2:53:22.000 Apparently it's still unclear if it's trumple Von she's going 2:53:22.040 --> 2:53:23.280 to sign it on behalf of the US. 2:53:24.400 --> 2:53:26.560 I love the idea that they've got a DOCU sign 2:53:26.640 --> 2:53:29.840 that's like being in back and forth something fucking Darron 2:53:30.040 --> 2:53:32.560 is like wait a minute, Like I refreshed my phone, man, 2:53:32.600 --> 2:53:34.640 I'm like, I'm still not seeing it. I'm still not 2:53:34.800 --> 2:53:37.640 seeing it. Did you Okay, how did you spell my 2:53:37.760 --> 2:53:41.960 email address? Let me check the span. Dude trying to 2:53:42.000 --> 2:53:45.200 get the Trump administration to spell your name right in 2:53:45.280 --> 2:53:47.800 an email as any Iranian politician. 2:53:47.920 --> 2:53:48.400 My god. 2:53:49.760 --> 2:53:50.000 Yeah. 2:53:51.000 --> 2:53:51.520 Quick update. 2:53:51.600 --> 2:53:55.040 Here turns out Trump signed the Memorandum of Understanding right 2:53:55.160 --> 2:54:00.360 after we recorded on Wednesday in Versailles. So well, it 2:54:00.560 --> 2:54:03.119 is an MoU of Versailles. 2:54:04.520 --> 2:54:05.400 Back to jams. 2:54:06.400 --> 2:54:08.000 Once they sign it, they're going to do a sixty 2:54:08.120 --> 2:54:11.160 day intensive negotiation period which will certainly focus on the 2:54:11.320 --> 2:54:14.800 nuclear issue. It gets that in a bit. The MoU begins, 2:54:14.920 --> 2:54:17.440 quote the United States of America and Islamic Republic of 2:54:17.480 --> 2:54:20.240 Iran and their allies in the current war are selling 2:54:20.320 --> 2:54:23.240 this MoU to declare the immediate and permanent termination of 2:54:23.280 --> 2:54:27.199 military operations on all fronts, including in Lebanon. An undicate 2:54:27.280 --> 2:54:30.440 from now on not to initiate any war military operation 2:54:30.480 --> 2:54:32.680 against each other, and to refrain from the threat or 2:54:32.800 --> 2:54:34.840 use of force against each other. And it's showing the 2:54:34.959 --> 2:54:38.240 territorial integrity and sovereignty of Lebanon. The final deal will 2:54:38.280 --> 2:54:40.920 confirm the permanent termination of the war and all fronts, 2:54:41.000 --> 2:54:44.160 including in Neblon. We're going to get onto that, don't worry. 2:54:44.560 --> 2:54:47.400 Probably the headliner rate is the nuclear stuff zero point 2:54:47.480 --> 2:54:50.320 eight quote. The Islamic Republic of Iran reaffirms that it 2:54:50.360 --> 2:54:54.879 shall not procure or develop nuclear weapons. There's still negotiation 2:54:54.959 --> 2:54:58.440 on a rich geranium. But CNN had a leaked version 2:54:58.640 --> 2:55:02.039 of a previous version of this draft, and it didn't 2:55:02.240 --> 2:55:04.400 have the following. So this has been added at a 2:55:04.440 --> 2:55:07.320 relatively late stage. And it seems that there is a 2:55:07.400 --> 2:55:12.880 quote unquote minimum methodology for like degrading their enriched uranium, 2:55:12.879 --> 2:55:17.400 which is to downblend it under IAEA supervision. That seems 2:55:17.400 --> 2:55:19.000 to have been added very late, so that that's kind 2:55:19.040 --> 2:55:22.640 of their like lowest threshold that the US is willing 2:55:22.680 --> 2:55:25.080 to accept. I guess, which will be not transferring that 2:55:25.280 --> 2:55:30.400 uranium but down blending it. The United States is committed 2:55:30.440 --> 2:55:33.119 to withdraw down its blockade and its forced pasture within 2:55:33.200 --> 2:55:37.160 thirty days. Today we saw Iranian tankers across the USA's 2:55:37.200 --> 2:55:39.760 blocke with that an issue claims about the straight up 2:55:39.760 --> 2:55:43.040 horror moves on Trump's true social account and those that 2:55:43.160 --> 2:55:46.560 we see on Iranian state media and in the document Diverge, 2:55:47.400 --> 2:55:50.520 Trump has claimed and equivocally that straight is open without tolls. 2:55:51.160 --> 2:55:54.880 This is not something we see in Pakistani PM Shabasha 2:55:54.959 --> 2:55:58.920 Reef's statement or in Iran. As far as News Agency 2:55:59.440 --> 2:56:02.560 fast US, she seems to say that the strait will 2:56:02.600 --> 2:56:05.040 be administered by a man in Iran, and then I'll 2:56:05.040 --> 2:56:08.800 just read from the MoU here. The Islamic Republic of 2:56:08.879 --> 2:56:11.240 Iran will make arrangements using its best efforts for the 2:56:11.320 --> 2:56:14.640 safe passage of commercial vessels with no charge for sixty 2:56:14.720 --> 2:56:16.880 days only from the Persian Gulf to the See of 2:56:16.920 --> 2:56:19.760 a Man and vice versa. The traffic of commercial vessels 2:56:19.760 --> 2:56:23.320 will immediately start and considering the need for removing the technical, 2:56:23.400 --> 2:56:27.160 military obstacles and de mining by the Islamic Republic of Iran, 2:56:27.200 --> 2:56:30.360 will be instated within thirty days. The Islamic Republican Iran 2:56:30.400 --> 2:56:32.960 will conduct dialogue with the Sultanate of a Man to 2:56:33.040 --> 2:56:36.400 determine the future administration and maritime services in the Straight 2:56:36.440 --> 2:56:40.000 of Horn Moose in discussion with other Persian Golf littoral 2:56:40.120 --> 2:56:43.400 states in line with the applicable international law and sovereign 2:56:43.800 --> 2:56:47.040 rights of coastal states of the Straight of Hornmos not 2:56:47.360 --> 2:56:50.200 entirely clear there, but it does seem to perhaps leave 2:56:50.320 --> 2:56:55.400 open some kind of Iranian A man whole agreement. 2:56:55.920 --> 2:56:59.360 Yeah, they're definitely going to start charging a service. We're 2:56:59.400 --> 2:57:01.080 going to make a sht money off this. 2:57:01.440 --> 2:57:04.600 Yep, let's talk about a shitload of money, because because 2:57:04.640 --> 2:57:07.880 that's only unfortunately some of the shipload of money. Yeah, 2:57:08.480 --> 2:57:11.720 they're going to make of this. So the document includes 2:57:12.200 --> 2:57:15.760 three hundred billion dollars in reconstruction funds to total sanctions 2:57:15.800 --> 2:57:17.200 relief out of the deal. 2:57:17.440 --> 2:57:17.640 Yep. 2:57:17.800 --> 2:57:19.400 That's why they call him deal man. 2:57:20.200 --> 2:57:23.240 This is tough because we have destroyed massive parts of 2:57:23.280 --> 2:57:27.840 their infrastructure and we should we get that. But also, dude, 2:57:28.120 --> 2:57:32.280 you started this war, Yeah, spent billions of dollars, and 2:57:32.400 --> 2:57:34.600 now we're going to give them three hundred billion. 2:57:36.480 --> 2:57:37.600 What is wrong with you? 2:57:37.920 --> 2:57:40.320 Fucking ten years ago he was like, you know, the 2:57:40.400 --> 2:57:42.800 only thing that stopped around from falling off the brink 2:57:42.959 --> 2:57:45.400 was that Obama's that deal game one hundred and fifty 2:57:45.480 --> 2:57:46.160 billion dollars. 2:57:46.280 --> 2:57:48.720 All this circle back to another version of some kind 2:57:48.760 --> 2:57:50.280 of a raw nuclear agreement. 2:57:50.959 --> 2:57:53.440 All we've gotten is they say they won't, but now 2:57:53.879 --> 2:57:56.480 they get to rebuild all their infrastructure using our money 2:57:56.840 --> 2:57:59.279 because we used our money to destroy their infrastructure. 2:57:59.440 --> 2:58:01.560 I mean, yeah, they're supposed to be like an international 2:58:01.680 --> 2:58:05.199 monitoring thing, but like fuck yeah, that's not new. 2:58:05.760 --> 2:58:08.879 And I think more importantly for like America geo strategically, 2:58:08.959 --> 2:58:13.320 it's like Trump has managed to end the American protectorate 2:58:13.680 --> 2:58:17.280 of open trade lanes, a thing that has been the 2:58:17.600 --> 2:58:21.640 core of American power since like World War Two, and 2:58:21.720 --> 2:58:22.480 then no one. 2:58:22.520 --> 2:58:26.240 Was even thinking about taking away a ran and no 2:58:26.520 --> 2:58:29.520 part of Iran strategy it was to do this. This 2:58:29.800 --> 2:58:31.920 was not in that like this was a move they 2:58:32.000 --> 2:58:34.119 made because they were at a tight spot. 2:58:34.000 --> 2:58:36.840 And they had this was always in that if shit 2:58:36.920 --> 2:58:39.439 HiT's a found, they will do this, and now we've normalized. 2:58:39.520 --> 2:58:42.080 Right, this has always been an option for them, and 2:58:42.200 --> 2:58:44.240 they were put in a bad enough position that they 2:58:44.320 --> 2:58:44.880 had to do that. 2:58:45.120 --> 2:58:45.200 Right. 2:58:45.320 --> 2:58:47.560 This was their helm's deep thing, you know, is like 2:58:47.680 --> 2:58:50.240 well we can strangle global trade, you know. 2:58:51.040 --> 2:58:53.520 Yeah, this this wasn't even like a thing in like 2:58:53.720 --> 2:58:55.480 the like the I mean, I guess it kind of 2:58:55.760 --> 2:58:59.640 was in like the worst nightmares of like Israeli Fezbigoria 2:58:59.680 --> 2:59:01.960 about Iron getting a nuke, but like this wasn't even 2:59:02.000 --> 2:59:04.959 a thing that was like ooh they could Iran could. 2:59:04.760 --> 2:59:08.720 Do this, Like it's it's astonishing what they've what they've 2:59:08.760 --> 2:59:09.200 managed to do. 2:59:10.080 --> 2:59:12.360 I feel like it's a good time and every thing's 2:59:12.520 --> 2:59:14.560 very fine, So. 2:59:14.760 --> 2:59:18.160 Let's talk about it. Three hundred million just because I'm 2:59:18.200 --> 2:59:20.560 interested in the preconditions for fascism, and of course paying 2:59:20.640 --> 2:59:23.320 reparations for a war that you started was one of 2:59:23.360 --> 2:59:26.320 them first time around in Germany. It does, if you 2:59:26.360 --> 2:59:27.920 do the math, calculate to a lot less in the 2:59:28.000 --> 2:59:30.800 reparations that Germany had to pay off to World War One, 2:59:30.959 --> 2:59:31.320 of course. 2:59:31.840 --> 2:59:32.080 Yeah. 2:59:32.720 --> 2:59:37.400 The document labels the three hundred billion as reconstruction funds, 2:59:37.520 --> 2:59:39.560 but does not give a source other than quote, the 2:59:39.720 --> 2:59:42.640 United States of America undertakes with regional partners to develop 2:59:42.680 --> 2:59:46.840 a definitive, mutually agreed plan with at least USD three 2:59:46.959 --> 2:59:50.080 hundred billion for the reconstruction and economic development of the 2:59:50.240 --> 2:59:55.360 Islamic Republic of Iran. A separate line item details the 2:59:55.480 --> 2:59:58.760 United States of America undertakes to make fully available for 2:59:59.040 --> 3:00:01.840 use the frozen or restricted funds and assets that Republic 3:00:01.920 --> 3:00:05.520 of Iran upon implementation as MoU so they also get 3:00:05.640 --> 3:00:09.080 sanctions relief, right, Yeah, so they are getting all of 3:00:09.120 --> 3:00:11.360 the funds in the US has had frozen. They're getting 3:00:11.400 --> 3:00:14.440 sanctioned relief. And it seems like, it's conceivable with these 3:00:14.520 --> 3:00:17.800 two sentences that they're trying to include the unfrozen funds, 3:00:17.879 --> 3:00:21.480 but also highly conceivable that they're not. They don't seem 3:00:21.520 --> 3:00:24.800 to have restricted ballistic missiles, they don't seem to have 3:00:24.959 --> 3:00:28.879 mandated anything about changing the in the regime of Iran. 3:00:29.160 --> 3:00:34.000 Human rights, women's rights, rights for minority ethnic groups in Iran. 3:00:34.240 --> 3:00:38.160 Iran since this, since we first learned as mu, Iran 3:00:38.200 --> 3:00:42.039 has continued drone strikes against Kurdish groups in Southern Kordistan, 3:00:42.400 --> 3:00:45.920 Iranian Kurdish groups who are currently in Southern Kordistan. Yeah, 3:00:45.920 --> 3:00:48.760 And then then like with not over yet, because let's 3:00:48.800 --> 3:00:52.040 talk about what Israel has to say. Oh boy, yeah, 3:00:52.800 --> 3:00:55.560 Israel it just seems to be showing no signs of 3:00:55.920 --> 3:00:57.920 feeling themselves to be in any way restrained by this. 3:00:58.520 --> 3:01:01.960 Many Israeli politicians are public broken with the US on this. 3:01:02.840 --> 3:01:07.760 Israel's National Security Minister bank Via, famous for many terrible things, 3:01:07.959 --> 3:01:11.400 took to Twitter to announce that he had other plans, saying, quote, 3:01:11.480 --> 3:01:14.240 Trump's agreement does not bind us Israel. It's not subject 3:01:14.280 --> 3:01:18.600 to the United States. We're an independent sovereign nation explanation mark. 3:01:19.000 --> 3:01:21.240 Our duty is to the citizens of Israel, to the 3:01:21.320 --> 3:01:23.640 soldiers of the IDF, and to the Jewish people, and 3:01:23.680 --> 3:01:26.480 our historical duty to the persecuted and murdered Jews over 3:01:26.560 --> 3:01:29.720 thousands of years of exile to provide security to Jews 3:01:29.720 --> 3:01:32.200 in the land of Israel. Every time we succumbed to 3:01:32.280 --> 3:01:35.360 international pressure at the expense of Israel's security, we played 3:01:35.360 --> 3:01:40.199 a blood place with interest. So I don't think Bangavia 3:01:40.520 --> 3:01:43.600 feels bound by this to stop aggression in Lebanon, which 3:01:43.600 --> 3:01:46.040 will make the implementation of the whole thing very difficult. 3:01:46.560 --> 3:01:51.280 We've seen Trump really break with BB in a way 3:01:51.360 --> 3:01:55.440 that we'd heard before, but there have now been several 3:01:55.560 --> 3:01:58.080 more reports of Trump being very annoyed at NETN Yahoo 3:01:58.120 --> 3:02:03.400 continuing to effect if he sabotage these negotiations. Right, So, yeah, 3:02:03.879 --> 3:02:10.360 great times, very successful war. Huge dub. Speaking of dubs, 3:02:10.440 --> 3:02:14.279 let's talk about sports. Oh yeah, this past. 3:02:14.080 --> 3:02:16.560 Weekend, there were three sporting events that I think each 3:02:16.640 --> 3:02:21.200 reflect a unique facet of current American politics. This is 3:02:21.360 --> 3:02:24.320 the NBA Finals, the World Cup, and of course the 3:02:24.440 --> 3:02:29.200 Formula One Grand Prix in Barcelonia. No it says, of course, 3:02:29.200 --> 3:02:33.440 the UFC fight in the White House. Yeah, Before we 3:02:33.480 --> 3:02:35.840 talk about the UFC, which we will because there's a 3:02:36.440 --> 3:02:39.520 lot to do there. On Saturday night, the New York 3:02:39.560 --> 3:02:42.960 Nickerbockers overcame the curse of James Dolan and beat the 3:02:43.040 --> 3:02:46.640 San Antonios Urus five games to one, becoming NBA champions 3:02:46.640 --> 3:02:49.560 for the first time in fifty three years. After the 3:02:49.680 --> 3:02:52.199 next drought ending victory, the city lit up in celebration, 3:02:52.680 --> 3:02:55.320 literally in the case of a school bus in Times Square. 3:02:59.280 --> 3:03:02.320 But I think thousands, possibly one hundred of thousands of 3:03:02.360 --> 3:03:06.320 New Yorkers celebrated in a largely peaceful yet energized fashion 3:03:06.400 --> 3:03:09.440 all throughout the streets, buses and trains until the early 3:03:09.560 --> 3:03:10.280 hours of the morning. 3:03:10.680 --> 3:03:12.959 I love celebrating at a largely peaceful fashion. 3:03:13.040 --> 3:03:14.840 Five police cars did not survive the night. 3:03:17.000 --> 3:03:20.040 RiPP and pepperoni, as is the youth used to say. 3:03:20.840 --> 3:03:23.040 But come morning everything was all cleaned up in the 3:03:23.080 --> 3:03:26.279 city was sparkling ahead of the Puerto Rico Day Parade. 3:03:27.000 --> 3:03:31.200 On June eleventh, the World Cup kicked off, with matches 3:03:31.280 --> 3:03:35.360 being hosted in the US, Mexico, and Canada. And guys, 3:03:35.360 --> 3:03:38.360 everyone knows FIFA has tried to cozy up to Trump 3:03:38.560 --> 3:03:41.880 the past few years, notably awarding the president with the 3:03:42.040 --> 3:03:45.240 first ever FIFA World Peace Prize a few months prior 3:03:45.280 --> 3:03:46.680 to Trump starting a war, well. 3:03:46.640 --> 3:03:50.360 He'd already started a couple. He invaded Venezuela. That was 3:03:50.720 --> 3:03:54.800 That was a small skirmish compared to I think he 3:03:54.879 --> 3:03:55.600 had a big ward. 3:03:55.680 --> 3:03:58.920 The scale of our of our three hundred billion dollar 3:03:59.040 --> 3:04:03.560 restitution being paid to Ahurad fair. But the Trump administration's 3:04:03.600 --> 3:04:07.200 foreign policy and immigration restrictions have still caused disruptions to 3:04:07.520 --> 3:04:11.760 the World Cup. World Cup referee Omar Abdul Kadir Artan 3:04:12.440 --> 3:04:15.960 was denied entry to the US by CPB at the 3:04:16.120 --> 3:04:21.280 Miami International Airport due to quote unquote vetting concerns after 3:04:21.320 --> 3:04:26.240 being detained and questioned for eleven hours. Artan is from Somalia, 3:04:26.360 --> 3:04:30.880 which is currently on Trump's travel ban list, but Artan 3:04:30.959 --> 3:04:33.760 had actually already been vetted by the State Department and 3:04:34.000 --> 3:04:37.440 was issued a valid visa to referee at the World Cup. 3:04:38.080 --> 3:04:40.720 The executive director of the White House's World Cup Task Force, 3:04:40.879 --> 3:04:44.480 Andrew Giuliani, son of from the Pod and America's Mayor 3:04:44.560 --> 3:04:49.040 Rudy Giuliani, said that Artan was quote talking to some 3:04:49.360 --> 3:04:52.600 very bad people right as he was coming to the 3:04:52.760 --> 3:04:56.600 United States. There's some classified information we can't discuss now 3:04:57.000 --> 3:05:01.240 at some point that may be released unquote. Just last year, 3:05:01.320 --> 3:05:05.800 the Confederation of African Football named Artan as Referee of 3:05:05.920 --> 3:05:08.840 the Year. The Trump administration currently has travel bands against 3:05:09.000 --> 3:05:12.000 four of the qualifying countries participating in the World Cup. 3:05:12.280 --> 3:05:17.240 That's Haiti, Iran, Ivory Coast, and Singal, with exemptions for 3:05:17.560 --> 3:05:21.560 athletes and team officials participating at certain sporting events like 3:05:21.680 --> 3:05:24.560 the World Cup. For football fans wanting to attend the 3:05:24.560 --> 3:05:28.240 World Cup, there are visa bond waivers for Ivory Coast 3:05:28.320 --> 3:05:31.120 and Singhal, but not Haiti in Iran, with the Admin 3:05:31.240 --> 3:05:34.280 citing a high visa over stay right among Haitians and 3:05:34.560 --> 3:05:38.040 national security concerns related to the war in Iran. The 3:05:38.120 --> 3:05:41.600 Iranian travel ban also does have an exemption for certain 3:05:41.640 --> 3:05:45.200 religious minorities. Fans from the afric Coast and Stingal still 3:05:45.600 --> 3:05:49.840 have to deal with restrictions, as fans from those countries 3:05:50.000 --> 3:05:53.680 have reported getting their visas denied. It appears that in 3:05:53.840 --> 3:05:55.800 order to attend the World Cup they needed to apply 3:05:55.920 --> 3:05:59.600 for their visas prior to the presidential proclamation on December sixteenth. 3:06:00.160 --> 3:06:03.560 Very few fans from those countries are in and many 3:06:03.640 --> 3:06:08.520 have reported getting visas denied. Bomber visa bond waiver just 3:06:08.640 --> 3:06:12.480 applies to the fee, the visa fee that the Trump 3:06:12.480 --> 3:06:16.320 administration has has introduced, and they announced that there was 3:06:16.400 --> 3:06:21.480 a waiver for the fee for World Cup countries. Yeah, 3:06:22.080 --> 3:06:23.840 so if they did get the visa, they don't need 3:06:23.920 --> 3:06:26.440 to pay this extra fee, but they can only get 3:06:26.480 --> 3:06:30.360 the visa prior to the travel band going into effect 3:06:30.480 --> 3:06:31.080 in December. 3:06:31.760 --> 3:06:35.720 Yeah, Indonesia was removed as a host for twenty twenty 3:06:35.760 --> 3:06:40.160 three under twenty World Cup. They don't have diplomatic ties 3:06:40.320 --> 3:06:44.640 with Israel, and they had had opposed Israel's participation in 3:06:44.720 --> 3:06:47.240 the tournament, and obviously weren't going to like I believe 3:06:47.320 --> 3:06:49.920 they weren't going to allow them visas, but I'd have 3:06:50.040 --> 3:06:53.199 to check that last part that at that point, FIFA 3:06:53.280 --> 3:06:55.959 acted very swiftly, Right, They're not going to do that here. 3:06:56.840 --> 3:07:01.480 And despite the acted exemption, the Iranian team has ran 3:07:01.560 --> 3:07:05.320 into issues. Their training base camp had to be relocated 3:07:05.360 --> 3:07:09.000 from Arizona to Mexico, and the Trump administration has been 3:07:09.080 --> 3:07:12.160 making the team enter and exit through US customs on 3:07:12.280 --> 3:07:14.240 the same day as their matches. 3:07:15.440 --> 3:07:18.960 Yeah, they're right there in Tijuana actually, so like they're 3:07:19.120 --> 3:07:21.720 as close as they can be, right whilst not being 3:07:22.000 --> 3:07:23.840 except playing the games up in la I think I 3:07:23.879 --> 3:07:28.720 played in Englewood, but still I'm guessing they are transiting 3:07:28.879 --> 3:07:31.200 to sand They're probably crossing, having to go to San 3:07:31.240 --> 3:07:34.199 Diego and then fly north. It seems they said they flew, 3:07:34.320 --> 3:07:36.400 so maybe they fled directly to Tijani, didn't they. 3:07:37.200 --> 3:07:43.240 Despite the travel band exemption also technically applying to coaches 3:07:43.520 --> 3:07:47.920 and non player members of the athletic team, Iranian football 3:07:48.080 --> 3:07:54.240 officials have had their visas tonight. Star Iraqi player Amen 3:07:54.360 --> 3:07:59.720 Hussein and the Iraq team photographer were detained for in 3:08:00.120 --> 3:08:03.199 the player's case, seven hours, the photographer's case twelve hours 3:08:03.800 --> 3:08:07.320 at the Chicago airport while going through customs. Hassein was 3:08:07.360 --> 3:08:11.840 ultimately allowed entry, but the team photographer was not. Finally, 3:08:12.160 --> 3:08:15.200 New York City is hosting eight games for the World Cup, 3:08:15.280 --> 3:08:18.200 including the final, and in the lead up to the 3:08:18.280 --> 3:08:21.800 World Cup, Tom Homan threatened to send quote more ICE 3:08:21.920 --> 3:08:24.960 agents than you've ever seen on quote to New York 3:08:25.000 --> 3:08:28.560 City following legislations signed by Kathy Hokel limiting cooperation between 3:08:28.600 --> 3:08:32.440 ICE and local law enforcement. Following Homan's threat, Mary Mum 3:08:32.520 --> 3:08:34.600 Donnie said, quote, the World Cup is supposed to be 3:08:34.600 --> 3:08:36.520 a celebration of the world as a whole, and some 3:08:36.600 --> 3:08:39.320 of the decisions that we've seen being taken by the 3:08:39.400 --> 3:08:43.400 federal administration is anethema to what this tournament is supposed 3:08:43.400 --> 3:08:44.000 to be about. 3:08:44.400 --> 3:08:44.840 Unquote. 3:08:45.760 --> 3:08:47.920 Let's talk about one more sporting event, and of course 3:08:48.440 --> 3:08:53.160 that is the UFC Freedom two point fifty streaming on 3:08:53.240 --> 3:08:57.040 Paramount Plus, which happened this Sunday at the White House 3:08:57.200 --> 3:09:02.320 South Lawn, which was turned into a UFC stadium arena. 3:09:03.840 --> 3:09:05.760 Trump and Donald White. 3:09:05.680 --> 3:09:08.480 Walked together from the Oval office all the way to 3:09:08.760 --> 3:09:10.360 the octagon and like. 3:09:10.840 --> 3:09:14.640 Yeah, it's this is the most idiocracy things have been. Yeah, 3:09:14.720 --> 3:09:17.680 it's not like a a even a comparison you can 3:09:17.760 --> 3:09:20.440 make anymore. It's just we're just doing the exact thing. 3:09:21.240 --> 3:09:27.760 So cool, Welcome to UFC Freedom two fifty. Here is 3:09:28.040 --> 3:09:32.080 the President w United States of America, Donald J. 3:09:32.400 --> 3:09:37.920 Trump. Cool. 3:09:38.440 --> 3:09:41.920 Yeah, that movie's aged. Wow, better than I would have thought, unfortunately. 3:09:42.160 --> 3:09:44.320 Yeah, the cold open for the event was narrated by 3:09:44.480 --> 3:09:46.280 Ron Perlman, which is kind of the saddest part of 3:09:46.320 --> 3:09:47.360 this whole ordeal for me. 3:09:47.760 --> 3:09:49.800 Ah, that's upsetting, that's upsetting. 3:09:49.959 --> 3:09:51.240 Wait what really? 3:09:51.800 --> 3:09:53.440 Yeah, I'm sorry, Yeah, yeah. 3:09:53.360 --> 3:09:56.680 I'm sure UFC offered him a dump truck full of money. 3:09:57.000 --> 3:09:57.200 Yeah. 3:09:58.040 --> 3:10:00.720 Ron Perlman's well known to do things for dump dregs 3:10:00.760 --> 3:10:01.240 full of money. 3:10:02.920 --> 3:10:05.400 In between the fights, they played a series of largely 3:10:05.520 --> 3:10:09.960 AI generated videos covering American history and showing how the 3:10:10.120 --> 3:10:15.640 UFC embodies the country's fighting spirits. 3:10:14.520 --> 3:10:15.520 Are not good. 3:10:15.560 --> 3:10:17.920 You can find them on the UFC YouTube channel. They're 3:10:18.040 --> 3:10:22.880 titled Americana. There's a series of three UFC Veteran announcer 3:10:23.320 --> 3:10:26.680 Bruce Buffer kicked things off in a way that really 3:10:26.800 --> 3:10:29.320 encapsulated this entire event. And I do want to play 3:10:29.400 --> 3:10:30.080 this clip here. 3:10:30.879 --> 3:10:32.440 There's a gentleman. 3:10:39.879 --> 3:10:45.600 From the SHOFFM Love the Wide House in Washington. 3:10:48.600 --> 3:10:53.920 For you safe Freedom two fipter Perata by Ram Trucks 3:10:54.240 --> 3:10:57.360 not Pleased off Ram and by Crypto dot com, the 3:10:57.440 --> 3:11:00.240 world's leading crypto cursey platform. 3:11:02.560 --> 3:11:08.720 Man just the most cardios bullshit seen Crypto dot Com. 3:11:09.280 --> 3:11:12.920 Yep, Wow, it wasn't just Crypto dot Com that had 3:11:13.080 --> 3:11:16.520 a presence at Freedom two fifty. The Octagon stage itself 3:11:16.600 --> 3:11:19.920 was covered with logos for Red, White and Blue, Monster Energy, 3:11:20.560 --> 3:11:26.240 bud Light, Rumble, Meta, Steak, gambling and polymarket. 3:11:30.200 --> 3:11:32.800 Such a good country man. I'm just I love this place. 3:11:33.080 --> 3:11:34.520 I were nailing it. 3:11:35.160 --> 3:11:37.520 The four thousand seat South lond Arena was mostly filled 3:11:37.560 --> 3:11:40.800 by members of the military, Trump's cabinets, and politicians and 3:11:40.879 --> 3:11:43.600 billionaires like David Ellison and Mark Zuckerberg. 3:11:44.040 --> 3:11:48.880 Man the incredible ratio of billionaires to guys with thirty 3:11:48.959 --> 3:11:52.320 one percent APR loans on a Ford F one fifty. 3:11:52.600 --> 3:11:55.000 I don't know if it's ever existed before in like 3:11:55.160 --> 3:11:56.360 this small space. 3:11:56.600 --> 3:11:58.920 The normal people had to watch from Olyps Park. 3:11:58.879 --> 3:12:00.400 Near the Washington Arnument. 3:12:01.760 --> 3:12:03.400 This was a sixty million dollar production. 3:12:03.520 --> 3:12:03.640 You know. 3:12:03.680 --> 3:12:05.040 There was a military flyover. 3:12:05.520 --> 3:12:10.240 The US Marine Band played songs like the Boys Are 3:12:10.320 --> 3:12:13.840 Back in Town and of course Trump's favorite YMCA. But 3:12:14.000 --> 3:12:16.039 the thing that caused the most headlines after the event 3:12:16.680 --> 3:12:20.520 relates to UFC heavyweight to Josh Hokit, who acts a 3:12:20.680 --> 3:12:23.520 sort of heel for the UFC while making statements that 3:12:23.760 --> 3:12:26.880 pander to a mega fan base. After winning his match, 3:12:26.920 --> 3:12:31.640 he gave Trump a chain necklace and said, hey, shout 3:12:31.680 --> 3:12:34.760 out to Trump for having the balls to put on 3:12:35.080 --> 3:12:36.000 some shit like this. 3:12:36.760 --> 3:12:37.280 Unquote. 3:12:37.920 --> 3:12:44.520 Trump's balls received multiple shoutouts on stage, but following that comment, 3:12:44.800 --> 3:12:46.199 Josh Hokit said. 3:12:46.160 --> 3:12:50.080 This, Mochelle Hopebama is a man. 3:12:50.760 --> 3:12:52.080 Am I right America. 3:12:53.480 --> 3:12:55.840 Joe Rogan is on stage at the same time holding 3:12:55.920 --> 3:12:57.879 the microphone for Hokit. 3:12:58.120 --> 3:12:58.280 Yeah. 3:12:59.320 --> 3:13:01.200 Rogan never a d rest the comment for the rest 3:13:01.280 --> 3:13:04.160 of the night, and the UFC cut out this comment 3:13:04.400 --> 3:13:08.280 from their own YouTube upload and has issued takedown requests 3:13:08.320 --> 3:13:13.320 for this clip across social media. Denna White told Time magazine, quote, 3:13:13.840 --> 3:13:18.360 I understand that the Obamas are public figures, but I'm 3:13:18.400 --> 3:13:22.800 completely against saying nasty and false things about people's families. 3:13:23.200 --> 3:13:25.959 Everyone knows my position on free speech, but I hate 3:13:26.000 --> 3:13:27.199 that kind of nonsense. 3:13:27.520 --> 3:13:28.000 Unquote. 3:13:28.160 --> 3:13:30.280 Yeah, you make that bed, you get a lie in it. 3:13:31.320 --> 3:13:32.720 So that was freedom two fifty. 3:13:32.800 --> 3:13:36.400 I watched about an hours worth of the Paramount plus 3:13:36.600 --> 3:13:39.039 broadcast and the fights. I did not watch the full thing. 3:13:39.640 --> 3:13:41.400 Most of the actual fighting was just like a regular 3:13:41.520 --> 3:13:44.440 UFC fight, right. The Hokit comment was the main thing 3:13:44.560 --> 3:13:48.720 that was like politically motivated actually on stage, besides the 3:13:48.760 --> 3:13:50.440 fact that you know, Trump's sitting right there and you're 3:13:50.520 --> 3:13:53.800 fighting at the White House. But according to the FBI, 3:13:54.240 --> 3:13:59.560 this event could have gone very different. Here's Fox News reporting. 3:14:00.320 --> 3:14:02.960 Everyone breaking news out of Washington, d C on a 3:14:03.040 --> 3:14:07.600 potential tragedy that's been averted. The FBI, revealing earlier today, 3:14:07.640 --> 3:14:10.680 had foiled an alleged terror plot that was set to 3:14:10.840 --> 3:14:14.400 target Sunday night's UFC Freedom event at the White House. 3:14:14.800 --> 3:14:15.720 That's right. 3:14:17.120 --> 3:14:19.879 On Tuesday morning, Fox reported there was a sophisticated multi 3:14:19.920 --> 3:14:24.879 step plan involving explosives, drones, and snipers targeting the Freedom 3:14:24.879 --> 3:14:28.440 through Fifty event. Vice President JD. Vance addressed the alleged 3:14:28.600 --> 3:14:32.440 terror plot on Fox and Friends, saying, quote, so much 3:14:32.520 --> 3:14:36.039 of the far left rhetoric is driving itself towards violence, 3:14:36.480 --> 3:14:37.959 and also said. 3:14:37.840 --> 3:14:41.200 This Unfortunately, I think a lot of my Democratic colleagues 3:14:41.200 --> 3:14:42.879 in Washington have got to look themselves in the mirror 3:14:42.920 --> 3:14:45.240 and say, why is so much of this political violence 3:14:45.240 --> 3:14:46.520 coming from our side of the spectrum. 3:14:46.720 --> 3:14:47.880 Maybe they can do something different. 3:14:48.320 --> 3:14:50.879 So, according to Vance, this alleged terror plot was coming 3:14:51.160 --> 3:14:54.840 from the Democrat side of politics a result of turning 3:14:55.000 --> 3:14:58.400 up the political rhetoric. Fox reported that the thwarted attack 3:14:58.560 --> 3:15:02.760 was targeting capitalism, millionaires, and a pack with upwards of 3:15:02.800 --> 3:15:04.960 twenty three people involved in the plot, five of whom 3:15:05.000 --> 3:15:08.200 are in custody, with the details of the plan being 3:15:08.320 --> 3:15:13.040 uncovered on the encrypted messaging app Signal. A Fox contributor 3:15:13.120 --> 3:15:16.720 said that terrorist organizations and countries used by them's open 3:15:16.760 --> 3:15:19.560 border to bring people inside the United States. Advance pointed 3:15:19.560 --> 3:15:23.240 to the administration's efforts to go after left wing terrorist 3:15:23.360 --> 3:15:26.520 funding networks. Almost all of that is not true. 3:15:26.640 --> 3:15:30.160 Yeah, it's just lies. It's just lies, complete nonsense. 3:15:30.320 --> 3:15:33.520 Yeah, almost all of that is at the very least 3:15:34.440 --> 3:15:39.240 stretching what actually happened to a near unrecognizable status, or 3:15:39.360 --> 3:15:43.760 is completely lying about the context and background of this attack. 3:15:44.600 --> 3:15:49.280 We will get into what actually happened regarding this alleged 3:15:49.520 --> 3:15:52.320 planned attack after this app break. 3:16:04.560 --> 3:16:08.760 Okay, we are back. On Tuesday morning, the FBI and 3:16:08.840 --> 3:16:13.320 DOJ announced law enforcement had thwarted a mass casualty attack 3:16:13.320 --> 3:16:17.160 attempting to kill government officials with arrests happening over the 3:16:17.240 --> 3:16:22.280 weekend in Ohio, Missouri, Nebraska, and California. But rather than 3:16:22.320 --> 3:16:27.000 being the result of the FBI's excellent investigative prowess, law 3:16:27.080 --> 3:16:30.080 enforcement only learned about this potential attack because the mother 3:16:30.680 --> 3:16:33.119 of one of the members of this group as planning 3:16:33.160 --> 3:16:36.440 the attack called the police concerned about her son's recent 3:16:36.520 --> 3:16:41.400 firearm purchases and contact with individuals online. By the time 3:16:41.480 --> 3:16:45.480 the FBI got to this person, nineteen year old Tyson Proper, 3:16:46.280 --> 3:16:48.880 he was already in a mental hospital. 3:16:49.120 --> 3:16:54.760 Yeah. Literally could not have done this. And just to 3:16:54.840 --> 3:16:57.600 be clear that the scale of the plan that they're describing, 3:16:57.840 --> 3:17:00.320 I would think would be difficult for like an nation 3:17:00.480 --> 3:17:04.039 state actor to carry off successfully in DC. 3:17:04.520 --> 3:17:04.760 Yeah. 3:17:04.959 --> 3:17:07.400 Absolutely, Yeah, these guys were LARPing. 3:17:07.520 --> 3:17:10.400 These guys were LARPing on a signal group and there 3:17:10.480 --> 3:17:13.200 was definitely some mental illness involved in that too. 3:17:14.560 --> 3:17:17.160 A group of a group of men larped themselves into 3:17:17.280 --> 3:17:18.039 federal custody. 3:17:18.200 --> 3:17:19.120 Yep, yep, yep. 3:17:19.400 --> 3:17:23.400 Now, after police were called to Tyson Propper's home, where 3:17:23.520 --> 3:17:26.440 he lived with his parents, he was transported to the 3:17:26.560 --> 3:17:31.640 Dublin Springs Mental Health Center for homicidal ideations. Tyson Propper 3:17:31.720 --> 3:17:36.000 himself told police and FBI that he and others online 3:17:36.280 --> 3:17:39.520 had planned to use drones to detonate explosives on the 3:17:39.720 --> 3:17:43.760 north side of the UFC arena, forcing event attendees to 3:17:43.840 --> 3:17:47.560 evacuate south, where other co conspirators would be set up 3:17:47.560 --> 3:17:51.400 with sniper rifles to fire on the fillying crowd, targeting 3:17:51.440 --> 3:17:55.360 politicians and other quote unquote high value targets at the 3:17:55.440 --> 3:17:58.840 Freedom two fifty event. Proper and for others are charged 3:17:58.879 --> 3:18:02.960 with conspiracy to commit murder. A family member told officers 3:18:03.080 --> 3:18:06.200 that Proper talked about meeting up with people he had 3:18:06.280 --> 3:18:09.640 met online to conduct quote unquote missions and quote unquote 3:18:09.760 --> 3:18:13.560 recons and that he allegedly spent about three thousand dollars 3:18:13.640 --> 3:18:17.040 of his graduation money to buy quote camping gear, food, 3:18:17.160 --> 3:18:21.160 ballistic plates, a new shotgun, a rifle, lots of ammunition, 3:18:21.720 --> 3:18:26.040 extra magazines, and plate carriers unquote. After searching his phone, 3:18:26.400 --> 3:18:30.600 investigators found signal chats detailing of planned attack, with maps 3:18:30.680 --> 3:18:35.160 highlighting potential sniper locations and drone launch points. The day 3:18:35.240 --> 3:18:39.600 after local police first visited Proper's home, the sheriff's office 3:18:39.640 --> 3:18:43.400 contacted the FBI. The FBI then searched Proper's home and 3:18:43.520 --> 3:18:46.960 found a journal that the criminal complaint says contained a 3:18:47.320 --> 3:18:51.160 list of approximately forty six names, including celebrities and politicians, 3:18:51.680 --> 3:18:55.280 as well as pages quote in which Proper wrote that 3:18:55.480 --> 3:18:59.359 the government sought to control people and to sacrifice children 3:18:59.480 --> 3:19:04.520 and others to a demonic figure unquote. Family told FBI 3:19:04.760 --> 3:19:07.640 that Proper had quote recently began interacting with a group 3:19:07.720 --> 3:19:11.520 online that was comprised of individuals who represented themselves as 3:19:11.640 --> 3:19:16.279 ex military and that may share some Christian based ideology. 3:19:17.680 --> 3:19:21.000 Family members said that these individuals were using religion to 3:19:21.160 --> 3:19:25.640 manipulate Proper, and that they quote expressed ultra religious and 3:19:25.800 --> 3:19:30.360 anti government sentiments, specifically citing grievances about government corruption, the 3:19:30.440 --> 3:19:33.440 handling of the Epstein files, data centers, taking up all 3:19:33.440 --> 3:19:37.280 the water in communities, and other government actions. The Ohio 3:19:37.400 --> 3:19:41.920 criminal complaint says that Proper family members also highlighted concerning 3:19:42.000 --> 3:19:45.280 statements that he had made in recent months, quote, such 3:19:45.360 --> 3:19:49.280 as making sympathetic comments about Adolf Hitler and posting anti 3:19:49.320 --> 3:19:50.880 Semitic comments on Facebook. 3:19:52.800 --> 3:19:55.160 When will the left stop its violence? 3:19:55.720 --> 3:19:55.920 Yeah? 3:19:56.160 --> 3:20:00.320 Basic, basic antifa left wing plot against capitalists here. 3:20:00.480 --> 3:20:03.519 Yeah, standard leftist Hitler appreciate. 3:20:03.520 --> 3:20:06.200 Sacrificing children to demonic figures. 3:20:06.320 --> 3:20:08.160 Yeah yeah. Well I don't know if you know Garrison, 3:20:08.240 --> 3:20:10.279 but they're still called the National Socialist Party. 3:20:10.840 --> 3:20:10.960 You know. 3:20:11.360 --> 3:20:16.920 These people were like Christian extremists with I'm sure some 3:20:17.160 --> 3:20:19.440 very weird views that will all get elucidated. I look 3:20:19.480 --> 3:20:22.200 forward to reading through the signal chats. This is not 3:20:22.400 --> 3:20:25.040 really a thing. This is people who are mentally ill 3:20:25.440 --> 3:20:28.360 and certainly. I mean it sounds like if you have 3:20:28.440 --> 3:20:30.200 a signal chat where you're passing around a map of 3:20:30.520 --> 3:20:33.720 targets crossed a line where I'm not surprised one of 3:20:33.800 --> 3:20:37.280 them was already in a mental hospital, but there was 3:20:37.360 --> 3:20:38.560 no danger to the event. 3:20:39.120 --> 3:20:39.360 Yeah. 3:20:39.800 --> 3:20:41.840 To be clear, he was placed in the mental hospital 3:20:42.120 --> 3:20:44.360 after first being interviewed by police. But I think it's 3:20:44.440 --> 3:20:47.720 noteworthy the police did not take him into custody. They 3:20:47.920 --> 3:20:51.760 sent him to a mental health facility after first contacting him. 3:20:51.680 --> 3:20:53.640 Because he clearly had no ability to do this. 3:20:54.160 --> 3:20:56.800 Yeah, did he get a get involuntary mental health hold. 3:20:57.120 --> 3:20:59.600 There was an emergency request to put him in this 3:21:00.080 --> 3:21:04.400 mental hospital based on the homicidal ideation. The application detailed 3:21:04.680 --> 3:21:07.760 that he had also sought to join police or military, 3:21:08.080 --> 3:21:10.000 specifically just to kill human beings. 3:21:10.959 --> 3:21:14.200 Yeah, and like, this kid sounds like he very easily 3:21:14.240 --> 3:21:15.320 could have become a mass shooter. 3:21:15.440 --> 3:21:15.640 Yeah. 3:21:15.720 --> 3:21:18.720 Like, I'm sure there's a number of those like that. 3:21:18.879 --> 3:21:21.080 It does sound like that's something that was going on here. 3:21:21.640 --> 3:21:25.280 Ideation is certainly present, So this is very concerning. But yeah, 3:21:25.320 --> 3:21:28.760 what Vance's description of what happened is so so far 3:21:28.920 --> 3:21:30.320 Afield is to effectively be. 3:21:30.360 --> 3:21:33.520 Alie, Oh yeah. As for the sort of group formation 3:21:33.680 --> 3:21:37.560 here proper allegedly told police that members of the group 3:21:37.640 --> 3:21:41.800 that was planning this attack were primarily recruited through TikTok. Yeah, 3:21:42.000 --> 3:21:44.160 and then once they had been vetted on TikTok, they 3:21:44.160 --> 3:21:47.680 were allowed in a signal chat. The largest signal chat 3:21:47.720 --> 3:21:52.720 investigators found contained nineteen members. There's also some smaller spinoff 3:21:52.800 --> 3:21:53.520 signal chats. 3:21:53.840 --> 3:21:56.920 Even among there, the danger of the spinoff group chat 3:21:57.080 --> 3:21:58.400 is impossible to avoid. 3:21:59.800 --> 3:22:03.760 The chats was called quote unquote Hunters Jesus God, and 3:22:03.840 --> 3:22:07.120 the complaint says it contained detailed instructions for carrying out 3:22:07.160 --> 3:22:10.039 the attack, including plans to escape. 3:22:10.200 --> 3:22:13.240 They're completely delusional. They think they're escaping from doing something 3:22:13.320 --> 3:22:13.520 like that. 3:22:14.120 --> 3:22:16.280 Next week, I'm going to do a full episode about 3:22:16.360 --> 3:22:18.680 the criminal complaint here and we'll get into more details 3:22:18.680 --> 3:22:21.680 about the attack and their planning. And yes, there was 3:22:21.800 --> 3:22:24.039 no way this attack as plan was going to happen. 3:22:24.520 --> 3:22:28.440 They didn't have the material, the personnel, or the logistical 3:22:28.520 --> 3:22:31.920 capacity to pull this off. Now, they weren't just communicating 3:22:31.959 --> 3:22:34.320 on signal though, They also were using another encrypted messaging 3:22:34.320 --> 3:22:35.480 app called simple. 3:22:35.360 --> 3:22:37.000 X Y Simplex Messenger. 3:22:36.640 --> 3:22:39.840 Where they had one chat called the Vanguard of the 3:22:40.000 --> 3:22:40.840 Old Republic. 3:22:41.560 --> 3:22:48.360 Oh my god, this has shades that fucking dude in 3:22:48.520 --> 3:22:52.040 Texas who got killed by a security guard trying to 3:22:52.200 --> 3:22:55.760 attack the courthouse with a Gladys on his belt. 3:22:55.840 --> 3:22:57.560 In addition to it, they are fifteen. 3:22:58.360 --> 3:22:59.160 I did see that. 3:23:00.080 --> 3:23:01.920 Yeah, you'd like a post of himself like a modern 3:23:02.000 --> 3:23:04.600 Gladias to defend a modern republic. It was one of 3:23:04.720 --> 3:23:07.520 the one of the lamer attempts at a mass shooting. 3:23:07.920 --> 3:23:08.120 Yeah. 3:23:08.760 --> 3:23:11.440 One of the co conspirators who was arrested in California 3:23:11.760 --> 3:23:15.440 wrote on simplex quote to be clear, I intend to 3:23:15.680 --> 3:23:18.520 escalate this group. I don't want to take six business 3:23:18.640 --> 3:23:23.600 years to do it. Unquote business year's the fuck man. Sorry, Yeah, 3:23:23.640 --> 3:23:26.000 that's a fascinating term. I guess I'm just saying a 3:23:26.040 --> 3:23:27.920 long time, right, They're trying to say a long time. 3:23:28.040 --> 3:23:30.320 Sorry, Garrison, please continue. 3:23:30.360 --> 3:23:32.520 Yeah, also writing that everyone in the group should quote 3:23:32.879 --> 3:23:37.119 consider yourselves an enemy of the state. In this group chat, 3:23:37.160 --> 3:23:42.320 they also discussed imagining executions. Another another co conspirator, also 3:23:42.400 --> 3:23:45.280 from California, read about the need for quote unquote gorilla 3:23:45.360 --> 3:23:49.800 style warfare and quote unquote raid attacks with quote skilled 3:23:49.879 --> 3:23:54.760 operators to work like ghosts to conduct quote infiltration missions, 3:23:55.400 --> 3:23:56.680 completely delusional stuff. 3:23:57.040 --> 3:24:01.000 Yeah, yeah, it's it's the same. The bigger what if 3:24:01.040 --> 3:24:03.920 we were really good at being terrorists? Would that work? 3:24:04.640 --> 3:24:04.680 Like? 3:24:04.840 --> 3:24:06.119 That's what's going on here. 3:24:07.400 --> 3:24:10.280 Tyson Proper showed the FBI the TikTok profiles of other 3:24:10.320 --> 3:24:12.960 members of the group, and based on those accounts and 3:24:13.120 --> 3:24:16.599 chat logs, investigators were able to identify other co conspirators 3:24:16.640 --> 3:24:19.800 across multiple states. Part of the plan for the Freedom 3:24:19.879 --> 3:24:24.480 to fifty attack was for co conspirators to meet in Fredericksburg, Virginia, 3:24:24.600 --> 3:24:27.840 a day or two before the event. This obviously never 3:24:27.920 --> 3:24:32.040 happened because it appears the group never actually acquired the 3:24:32.240 --> 3:24:37.000 explosives or the drones needed for plans. Expensive and we're 3:24:37.040 --> 3:24:39.360 still trying to figure out how to get enough money 3:24:39.800 --> 3:24:41.920 to purchase materials needed. 3:24:41.720 --> 3:24:42.520 For that attack. 3:24:43.040 --> 3:24:46.520 Yeah, yeah, that's important. Having the ability to do it 3:24:46.680 --> 3:24:47.200 is important. 3:24:47.520 --> 3:24:49.600 One of the members allegedly wrote that the attack would 3:24:49.600 --> 3:24:53.400 require quote five teams of three, each team consisting of 3:24:53.920 --> 3:24:57.880 one sniper, one Tier one operator as support slash lookout, 3:24:58.160 --> 3:24:59.520 and one drone operator. 3:25:01.200 --> 3:25:03.720 Yeah what tier then Tier one of the. 3:25:06.680 --> 3:25:08.320 How many ex Delta guys? 3:25:08.440 --> 3:25:09.440 She got hanging out. 3:25:09.760 --> 3:25:12.000 In the extending plan, they had like written out like 3:25:12.160 --> 3:25:15.160 four different tiers of operators and like what is supposed 3:25:15.200 --> 3:25:17.640 to do and how and how and how if the 3:25:17.720 --> 3:25:19.600 tier ones get arrested, we have to we have to 3:25:19.640 --> 3:25:21.680 try to break the tier ones out of jail. 3:25:21.680 --> 3:25:24.760 Right, Yeah, because they're so important. There's they're super important. 3:25:25.160 --> 3:25:26.360 We got to get the tier ones out. 3:25:26.480 --> 3:25:29.280 One of the numbers from California did try to drive 3:25:29.400 --> 3:25:32.960 to DCA, but his vehicle had issues that needed to 3:25:33.080 --> 3:25:34.440 turn that out here. 3:25:36.240 --> 3:25:36.480 Share. 3:25:36.920 --> 3:25:40.520 Yeah, that's uh, you know, honestly, the the Iranian hostage 3:25:40.560 --> 3:25:43.720 crisis Delta Force got stopped from doing a rescue something 3:25:43.760 --> 3:25:44.480 similar happened. 3:25:44.600 --> 3:25:46.400 This guy did admit this to the FBI, but he 3:25:46.520 --> 3:25:49.680 claimed that he was only going there to protest the 3:25:49.840 --> 3:25:51.959 UFC Freedom to fifty and that he was not involved 3:25:52.000 --> 3:25:52.800 in any conspiracy. 3:25:53.879 --> 3:25:54.600 That's tier one. 3:25:54.920 --> 3:25:59.200 But inside his vehicle agents found firearms, tactical belt, radios, 3:25:59.280 --> 3:26:04.000 and other supply. Inside the residents of the other California 3:26:04.080 --> 3:26:08.200 co conspirator, agents found firearms, thirty round accided magazines, and 3:26:08.280 --> 3:26:12.160 approximately one hundred and eighty rounds of ammunition. One of 3:26:12.240 --> 3:26:14.680 the members of the group in West Virginia, who was 3:26:14.720 --> 3:26:19.080 interviewed by FBI CAN affirmed that the members communicated online 3:26:19.320 --> 3:26:23.119 about attacking UFC FREEOM two fifty, but claimed the attack 3:26:23.200 --> 3:26:25.800 plan was canceled on June twelfth. 3:26:26.480 --> 3:26:30.000 That's fine then, yeah, yeah, and this is this is 3:26:30.040 --> 3:26:32.560 the kind of thing again, there's no way this attack 3:26:32.600 --> 3:26:34.800 ever would have happened the way the government's presenting this 3:26:34.879 --> 3:26:39.840 as nonsense. This community, little community absolutely could have spawned. 3:26:39.520 --> 3:26:42.800 One or more mass shooters. Yeah, yeah, totally super glad 3:26:42.879 --> 3:26:46.880 that it didn't. I find the sort of organizational structure 3:26:46.920 --> 3:26:47.760 of this really interesting. 3:26:47.879 --> 3:26:48.080 Yeah. 3:26:48.680 --> 3:26:51.840 They also they also discussed doing like attack only power grids. 3:26:52.240 --> 3:26:55.720 So you have certain certain aspects of like accelerationist terrorism here, 3:26:56.320 --> 3:26:58.560 but not organized on like you know, telegram, not not 3:26:59.200 --> 3:27:02.560 still andy Semitic, but not necessarily explicitly just sort of 3:27:02.600 --> 3:27:07.280 like neo Nazi like terrorist model. These people are on TikTok. 3:27:08.080 --> 3:27:11.880 They're obsessed with like like military tactics. They're very they're 3:27:12.000 --> 3:27:15.920 very larpie. They wanted to do something like they discussed assassinations, 3:27:15.959 --> 3:27:18.400 They discussed various types of attacks, but that they were 3:27:18.480 --> 3:27:22.520 interested in a tax for these like general anti government 3:27:22.640 --> 3:27:26.000 reasons rather than a specific sort of like niche political 3:27:26.040 --> 3:27:30.960 ideology right or ties to neo Nazi accelerationist groups. Like 3:27:31.040 --> 3:27:33.160 I said, we will go into more detail next week. 3:27:33.560 --> 3:27:38.680 Tuesday night, Vance did comment again, admitting that the attack 3:27:38.760 --> 3:27:41.520 plan was quote unquote not that advanced and that the 3:27:41.600 --> 3:27:46.000 suspects quote weren't in town. They had not really done 3:27:46.120 --> 3:27:51.240 that much planning. Great cool, dude, Yeah, so yeah, Vans 3:27:51.320 --> 3:27:54.400 kind of changed his tune later on in the evening. 3:27:54.800 --> 3:27:55.200 That's good. 3:27:55.520 --> 3:27:58.520 I'm glad he eventually said something that was not complete 3:27:58.600 --> 3:28:03.760 bullshit speaking of places where everything is complete bullshit. Did 3:28:03.840 --> 3:28:07.160 you guys know Peter Teel has a new social network. 3:28:07.240 --> 3:28:09.960 Actually it's twenty years old. It's not new at all, 3:28:10.240 --> 3:28:12.760 but he does kind of have a social network. It's 3:28:12.800 --> 3:28:17.040 a private invite only organization called Dialogue'll have you caught 3:28:17.080 --> 3:28:21.800 this story that's been dribbling out? No, So this first 3:28:22.000 --> 3:28:24.360 got onto most people's radar in like twenty twenty two, 3:28:24.520 --> 3:28:27.119 when Andrew Gellman, who's a statistician, posted on his blog 3:28:27.200 --> 3:28:30.640 that he had gotten an invite to this like Dialogue 3:28:30.720 --> 3:28:33.680 twenty twenty two, which was like that year's event. It 3:28:33.800 --> 3:28:36.640 was described as an off the record retreat for global leaders, 3:28:37.120 --> 3:28:39.320 and there was a list of confirmed participants like this 3:28:39.480 --> 3:28:41.560 was part of the like some of the names of 3:28:41.560 --> 3:28:43.680 people who have been in this organization we're talking about. 3:28:43.680 --> 3:28:44.840 It was going to be referred to as like a 3:28:44.920 --> 3:28:47.879 hack revealed some data that had not been like effectively 3:28:48.000 --> 3:28:50.520 redacted on the website to this organization. 3:28:50.959 --> 3:28:52.240 That revealed a bunch of the members. 3:28:52.280 --> 3:28:54.280 But we already had like a list of a like 3:28:54.440 --> 3:28:56.960 several dozen of the people in this group, and it 3:28:57.080 --> 3:29:00.760 included folks like Peter Brown, who's a CEO of Renaissance Technologies, 3:29:01.200 --> 3:29:04.520 Kelly Bayer, rosemarn who's the CEO of Optists, like you 3:29:04.560 --> 3:29:07.280 know a lot of CEOs, but also folks like Susan Athey, 3:29:07.480 --> 3:29:11.440 professor of economics at Stanford. Grogri Norquist was on that 3:29:11.640 --> 3:29:15.240 initial revealed list. He's an anti tax activist, I guess 3:29:15.240 --> 3:29:17.400 would be like the most basic way of saying what 3:29:17.480 --> 3:29:21.280 he is in the email to invite to Andrew said quote. 3:29:21.280 --> 3:29:24.400 There are no speeches or panels, only moderated breakout discussions 3:29:24.400 --> 3:29:26.920 for eight to twelve participants. Everything is one hundred percent 3:29:27.040 --> 3:29:29.400 off the record. The agenda is curated based on your 3:29:29.440 --> 3:29:32.959 interests and we optimize for introverts, no small talk. So yeah, 3:29:33.120 --> 3:29:35.360 there've been I think a couple of other previous cases 3:29:35.440 --> 3:29:37.960 where like invites to this have leaked out to different people, 3:29:38.400 --> 3:29:41.400 Like several folks who have gotten invited have like posted 3:29:41.440 --> 3:29:43.840 about it. This is not a totally weird thing for 3:29:44.000 --> 3:29:46.880 billionaires to do. Jeff Bezos has a similar kind of 3:29:47.000 --> 3:29:49.600 thing where every year or so he'll have a group 3:29:49.680 --> 3:29:52.160 of people he finds interesting that he takes to a 3:29:52.240 --> 3:29:54.880 resort or to a nice property or something that he 3:29:55.000 --> 3:29:57.480 owns somewhere and they'll all hang out and they'll have 3:29:57.680 --> 3:30:01.040 like discussions. Sometimes people put on presentation for like three 3:30:01.160 --> 3:30:03.360 or four days. And we've gotten that a couple of 3:30:03.360 --> 3:30:05.160 people who have been to these have like written about 3:30:05.200 --> 3:30:07.320 the experience and in some cases critically. 3:30:07.520 --> 3:30:10.000 Yeah, there's a big one at Sun Valley, right, that 3:30:10.120 --> 3:30:11.520 might be the one people I'm most familiar with. 3:30:11.720 --> 3:30:14.200 Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's That's that's one of 3:30:14.240 --> 3:30:14.800 the big ones. 3:30:15.080 --> 3:30:15.280 Yeah. 3:30:15.520 --> 3:30:16.960 So this is not a super weird thing. But the 3:30:17.040 --> 3:30:19.600 fact that Peter Teel is who he is, and the 3:30:19.680 --> 3:30:23.080 fact that he's only gotten more influential now that Trump 3:30:23.240 --> 3:30:26.680 is president again makes this organization a lot more relevant, 3:30:27.360 --> 3:30:31.480 which is why. It's particularly interesting that very recently there 3:30:31.640 --> 3:30:36.400 was apparently a directory in the website's code, and Swiss 3:30:36.440 --> 3:30:38.760 activist Maya Arson Crime, who is also a friend of 3:30:38.840 --> 3:30:41.640 the pod in the actual sense, was tipped off about 3:30:41.680 --> 3:30:45.039 a directory in the code for the website for Dialogue 3:30:45.480 --> 3:30:48.200 that basically was not They hadn't done the things that 3:30:48.280 --> 3:30:50.760 you would want to do to protect the data of 3:30:51.000 --> 3:30:53.920 their members, right, that's that's the basics of this, right, 3:30:54.120 --> 3:30:56.960 So something was left undone that should have been handled, 3:30:57.400 --> 3:31:01.680 and a bunch of information was revealed and Wired got 3:31:01.760 --> 3:31:03.959 as a result of this, the names of two hundred 3:31:04.000 --> 3:31:06.360 and twenty two people and the records, and these are 3:31:06.400 --> 3:31:09.199 a mix of folks who are like members of this organization, 3:31:09.400 --> 3:31:11.800 and Dialogue over the years has turned into more than 3:31:11.920 --> 3:31:14.680 just every year people meet. There's also apparently like a 3:31:14.840 --> 3:31:18.480 dating app component of it where they're advertising it like 3:31:18.520 --> 3:31:20.640 if you let us know who you're looking for, We've 3:31:20.680 --> 3:31:23.480 got this network of influential people will hook you up 3:31:23.520 --> 3:31:26.040 with another, you know, the you know, only special and 3:31:26.320 --> 3:31:29.760 important people. You know, that's a lot of the appeal, right, 3:31:29.920 --> 3:31:32.760 These are a lot of starfuckery that goes on in 3:31:32.800 --> 3:31:36.680 the Silicon Valley set but because of all of this stuff, 3:31:36.760 --> 3:31:39.720 there's also information on a retreat, the upcoming retreat this 3:31:39.800 --> 3:31:42.560 year's a bit which is apparently August twelfth to sixteenth. God, 3:31:42.600 --> 3:31:45.680 I'd love to get a seat at a venue near Dublin, Ireland. 3:31:45.800 --> 3:31:46.400 That's part of why. 3:31:46.720 --> 3:31:50.200 And to quote from that that Wired article and this 3:31:50.360 --> 3:31:53.640 is talking about like the program for this upcoming event. 3:31:53.840 --> 3:31:54.160 Quote. 3:31:54.400 --> 3:31:57.279 There's a series of off the record discussions including money, 3:31:57.480 --> 3:32:02.080 does by happiness, bring back new clear navigating World War 3:32:02.240 --> 3:32:07.040 three battlefield technologies? And how's your sex life? Other talks 3:32:07.080 --> 3:32:09.920 and ude build a cult moderated by the founder of 3:32:10.000 --> 3:32:13.640 the Christian networking site prey dot com and build a 3:32:13.720 --> 3:32:16.720 party run by a former White House National security official. 3:32:16.760 --> 3:32:18.320 Now I haven't looked in to build a party yet, 3:32:18.720 --> 3:32:21.520 that's boy howdy. But I did look into pray dot 3:32:21.600 --> 3:32:24.400 com and as soon as I went to the prey 3:32:24.440 --> 3:32:27.280 dot com website, it informed me that the founder and 3:32:27.440 --> 3:32:31.720 CEO is one Steve Gattina, who has the empty eyes 3:32:31.760 --> 3:32:34.800 of the shark from Jawns. Have you guys, Are you 3:32:34.840 --> 3:32:37.520 guys looking at this Steve now in the research stock? 3:32:38.400 --> 3:32:39.560 Is this the guy with the pray shirt? 3:32:39.800 --> 3:32:41.960 Yeah, he's wearing the pray shirt, and I have to say, 3:32:42.320 --> 3:32:45.240 he's got like the same phenotype as Peter Teal. 3:32:45.480 --> 3:32:46.720 It's it's uncanny. 3:32:47.360 --> 3:32:50.360 Yeah, Like he weirdly looks a little like Peter Teal. 3:32:50.879 --> 3:32:53.600 Yeah, he looks like his like his grin is about 3:32:53.640 --> 3:32:55.960 to start like spreading wider and there's going to be 3:32:56.000 --> 3:32:58.400 an alien facetraine like transformation. 3:32:58.680 --> 3:32:58.880 Yeah. 3:32:59.120 --> 3:33:01.640 Yeah, that's a said person case to be made here. 3:33:01.840 --> 3:33:02.959 So I was. 3:33:03.080 --> 3:33:06.160 Upset hearing that there's a build a cult workshop at 3:33:06.240 --> 3:33:09.480 Peter Thiel's private club invite. So I wanted to look 3:33:09.480 --> 3:33:10.840 into this guy a little bit, and they're read up 3:33:10.879 --> 3:33:14.880 on him. Gatina was before becoming an entrepreneur an NCAA champion, 3:33:14.959 --> 3:33:17.200 so he's used to having people take advantage of him. 3:33:17.760 --> 3:33:20.480 He played college football for the University of Southern California 3:33:20.520 --> 3:33:22.840 and won a Rose Bowl championship In two thousand and nine. 3:33:23.360 --> 3:33:26.240 He started his first company, REP Interactive, at the age 3:33:26.240 --> 3:33:28.520 of twenty two. I run into a lot of these 3:33:28.600 --> 3:33:31.360 LinkedIn founder guys, and often it's hard to tell what 3:33:31.440 --> 3:33:33.760 their many different companies do because they all have like 3:33:33.840 --> 3:33:34.400 thirty of them. 3:33:34.680 --> 3:33:37.279 Yeah yeah, Or if they're like real companies, yeah. 3:33:37.160 --> 3:33:39.520 If they're real, like that's bullshitting. 3:33:39.920 --> 3:33:41.000 This seemed it's real. 3:33:41.360 --> 3:33:45.800 It's it's a video agency. It's like a marketing agency 3:33:45.920 --> 3:33:49.560 that helps do video marketing. It's one of the best 3:33:49.640 --> 3:33:52.320 workplaces in America according to INC Magazine. I don't know 3:33:52.360 --> 3:33:54.320 if you paid a ban INC Magazine or not, so 3:33:54.440 --> 3:33:57.080 I don't know how impressive that is, but it seems 3:33:57.120 --> 3:34:00.320 to be a company that makes money. It's a social 3:34:00.360 --> 3:34:03.800 media like marketing company. He also has a stock footage 3:34:03.879 --> 3:34:07.600 company that has like drone stock footage. And after that 3:34:07.879 --> 3:34:10.879 he started a business called Prey dot Com in honor 3:34:10.959 --> 3:34:13.199 of his mentor and business partner who had just died. 3:34:13.720 --> 3:34:16.439 And when I started looking into this guy, I realized 3:34:16.640 --> 3:34:19.840 I've been following him before because I periodically on Reddit 3:34:19.920 --> 3:34:22.880 will go to the LinkedIn maniacs some Reddit. 3:34:24.400 --> 3:34:26.959 Oh, that's gotta be good. That's gonna be good. 3:34:27.080 --> 3:34:27.240 Man. 3:34:27.360 --> 3:34:30.200 Steve Katina is all over this shit because he's the 3:34:30.320 --> 3:34:32.680 CEO of Prey dot com. And I'm gonna read you 3:34:32.720 --> 3:34:33.959 one of his fucking posts. 3:34:34.520 --> 3:34:36.959 I and you love people who post on LinkedIn. 3:34:37.440 --> 3:34:40.760 Yesterday I swung by a twenty four hour diner after 3:34:40.879 --> 3:34:43.040 my late shift at work. I saw a waitress in 3:34:43.120 --> 3:34:45.240 her fifties sitting in a booth with a teenage boy. 3:34:45.560 --> 3:34:47.400 He had a notebook open and she was helping him 3:34:47.440 --> 3:34:50.199 tackle some algebra problems. When she got up to refill 3:34:50.240 --> 3:34:53.960 my coffee, I asked tutoring after hours? She smiled, looking 3:34:54.000 --> 3:34:57.000 a bit tired. That's my son. I can't afford a tutor, 3:34:57.120 --> 3:34:59.720 so we study here between my shifts. The boy looked 3:34:59.760 --> 3:35:02.520 up in said she's the smartest mom in the world. 3:35:02.959 --> 3:35:05.640 It turns out she just juggles two jobs but always 3:35:05.640 --> 3:35:07.320 makes time to sit with him every night and help 3:35:07.400 --> 3:35:09.959 him with his homework. He's going to college, she said, 3:35:09.959 --> 3:35:13.560 with determination, whatever it takes. It's amazing what love can 3:35:13.640 --> 3:35:16.240 do even when life gets tough. And to prove that 3:35:16.320 --> 3:35:18.120 this is a true story, he shows a picture of 3:35:18.200 --> 3:35:20.280 some lady and a kid sitting in a booth booking 3:35:20.320 --> 3:35:25.480 at a notebook. Wow, I love these guys and their 3:35:25.520 --> 3:35:29.000 inspirational Definitely didn't happen posts. Definitely not a thing that 3:35:29.080 --> 3:35:29.560 happened to you. 3:35:29.680 --> 3:35:30.920 Man, I'm such a genre. 3:35:31.800 --> 3:35:34.440 He credits the photo to somebody else. 3:35:36.360 --> 3:35:36.560 Where. 3:35:36.600 --> 3:35:37.520 Did you get it, Steve? 3:35:38.360 --> 3:35:38.560 Oh? 3:35:39.600 --> 3:35:42.160 Yeah, there's a lot of great, great people who are 3:35:42.200 --> 3:35:44.240 going to be at these events, which boy howdy, it 3:35:44.480 --> 3:35:46.200 sure would be fun to be a fly on the 3:35:46.280 --> 3:35:46.880 wall at weak. 3:35:46.879 --> 3:35:50.840 It's also water bott yeah yeah, for illustrative purposes. 3:35:51.840 --> 3:35:52.880 You guys are stuck on her. 3:35:53.440 --> 3:35:53.960 Yeah yeah. 3:35:54.280 --> 3:35:56.960 So to go back into the people who help make 3:35:57.040 --> 3:36:00.200 Dialogue the great organization it is. The executive direct of 3:36:00.280 --> 3:36:04.040 Dialogue is apparently Raffi Grenberg, and he is also the 3:36:04.160 --> 3:36:06.200 author of a self help book titled How to Be 3:36:06.320 --> 3:36:09.039 a grown Up. He did not respond to Wired's request 3:36:09.080 --> 3:36:11.240 for a comment, but I looked into it Raffi a 3:36:11.280 --> 3:36:13.040 little bit in his website, and you get to like 3:36:13.440 --> 3:36:16.560 Raffi Greenberg's website. He immediately tries to sell you his 3:36:16.680 --> 3:36:20.080 book directly above a YouTube video titled do Princeton Grads 3:36:20.200 --> 3:36:23.400 know w Anything? And it's like a YouTube prank video 3:36:23.480 --> 3:36:25.400 where he runs to prince He's wearing like a green 3:36:25.600 --> 3:36:28.120 tight skin tight body suit and he runs up to 3:36:28.200 --> 3:36:30.960 Princeton grads like after right after graduation and asked, like, 3:36:31.040 --> 3:36:33.240 do you know how to pay your taxes? And it's 3:36:33.240 --> 3:36:34.879 also you can like give out a bunch of copies 3:36:34.920 --> 3:36:37.080 of a shitty book about like life skills, and like, 3:36:37.560 --> 3:36:39.760 I'm sure the book sells to like parents who give 3:36:39.760 --> 3:36:41.640 them to their kids, but no one reads this. 3:36:41.840 --> 3:36:42.000 Man. 3:36:42.080 --> 3:36:43.959 When kids need to learn how to pay their taxes, 3:36:44.040 --> 3:36:46.000 if they don't have parents who know how to teach them, 3:36:46.280 --> 3:36:49.000 they like google it, or like desperately go to h 3:36:49.080 --> 3:36:51.320 and R Block, or they just don't pay their taxes, 3:36:51.560 --> 3:36:53.600 but they don't read a book like how to be 3:36:53.680 --> 3:36:55.640 a grownup. And I'm sorry about that, RAFFI. 3:36:55.760 --> 3:36:59.800 Yeah no, that's like homeschooling parent target audience. 3:37:00.360 --> 3:37:08.440 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Oh man, So yeah, I 3:37:08.480 --> 3:37:10.040 don't know. There's like a lot more to say about this. 3:37:10.040 --> 3:37:11.800 I think I'm gonna do it like an actual dedicated 3:37:11.879 --> 3:37:15.240 episode about dialogue in the not too distant future. This 3:37:15.320 --> 3:37:19.520 is fascinating, It does sound really interesting, and I want 3:37:19.560 --> 3:37:22.640 to know more about this this fun club. But yeah, 3:37:23.000 --> 3:37:25.600 you should check out the Wired article. It's really interesting. 3:37:25.920 --> 3:37:28.039 You should mention Jeffrey Epstein. 3:37:28.280 --> 3:37:29.760 I was gonna ask if that was an EPs. 3:37:29.760 --> 3:37:31.520 She you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right. I 3:37:32.400 --> 3:37:35.320 tried to blow through Jeffrey Epstein's involvement in this. Now, 3:37:35.440 --> 3:37:38.520 Jeffrey Epstein is tied to this, but not in a 3:37:38.600 --> 3:37:41.080 bad way, well, mostly not in a bad way. There's 3:37:41.120 --> 3:37:44.080 one email from him where like, someone who is a 3:37:44.160 --> 3:37:46.520 friend of Jeffrey Epstein got invited to one of these 3:37:46.520 --> 3:37:49.600 events and like forwarded it to him and was like, hey, 3:37:49.640 --> 3:37:52.520 should I do this thing? Basically, I don't think we 3:37:52.640 --> 3:37:56.480 know what jeff responded, but you know that caused because 3:37:56.480 --> 3:37:59.200 there's that it like, there's an invite to their twenty 3:37:59.360 --> 3:38:02.360 fourteen rich in the Epstein files, there was a lot 3:38:02.400 --> 3:38:04.920 of confusional People are like, oh, Jeffrey Epstein was a 3:38:05.080 --> 3:38:08.119 member of Dialogue, and this was furthered by the fact 3:38:08.160 --> 3:38:10.920 that Jeffrey Epstein was a member of Dialogue, but not 3:38:11.240 --> 3:38:15.800 that Jeffrey Epstein, the former CFO of Oracle was also 3:38:15.959 --> 3:38:18.400 so the fact that number one in the Epstein file 3:38:18.480 --> 3:38:21.200 someone forwarded an invite to the jeff Epstein who's a 3:38:21.240 --> 3:38:24.120 pedophile and number two there is an actual member of 3:38:24.160 --> 3:38:27.720 the group named Jeffrey Epstein, just a different one, caused 3:38:27.800 --> 3:38:29.480 people to believe that he was a part of this, 3:38:29.640 --> 3:38:31.840 but he does not appear to have been in a 3:38:31.920 --> 3:38:33.160 way that anyone is proven. 3:38:33.440 --> 3:38:36.400 The former CFO of Oracle should absolutely change his name. 3:38:36.680 --> 3:38:41.040 Yeah, I gotta say, very rarely do I extend this 3:38:41.280 --> 3:38:44.360 to especially a member of the Oracle c suite, But 3:38:44.640 --> 3:38:47.360 no one will blame you. We won't even joke about it. 3:38:47.520 --> 3:38:50.240 Like honestly, dude, like Jeffrey, it's not a weird name, 3:38:50.320 --> 3:38:53.120 you had no reason to expect. But somebody like this 3:38:54.400 --> 3:38:58.119 your name, then you don't deserve to bear this cross. 3:38:58.240 --> 3:38:59.640 I hope unless you do. 3:39:00.000 --> 3:39:06.440 I don't know you actually anyway, I think that's oh man. 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