1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd, 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: and this is there are No Girls on the Internet. 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: Do you need to be a human to be an influencer? 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: Or how about a rapper? What about a model? It 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: turns out, maybe not entirely. Digital creations are landing brand 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: deals and record deals and modeling contracts, and it might 8 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: sound super cool and futuristic, but it's also raising some 9 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: very real questions. So let's get into what's going on 10 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: and talk about some of the history behind virtual talent. 11 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: So last week, Capital Records announced that they signed a 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: record deal with a digital rapper called f n Mecca, 13 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: who became the first ever digital artist to sign with 14 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: a major recording label. But the deal also came with 15 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: accusations of digital black based cultural appropriation and the digital 16 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: exploitation of blackness. So just a eleven short days later, 17 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: the deal was terminated and the label said it was 18 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: cutting ties with the rapper because pretty much everybody's reaction 19 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: was like, wait, no, this is bad. So f and 20 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: Mecca was designed to look like a very specific type 21 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: of rapper. He rocks, bright green braids, half of the 22 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,199 Speaker 1: shaved head, face, tattoos, and the gold grill over his teeth, 23 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: kind of like the rapper six nine. He wraps about 24 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: cars and cash and diamonds and expensive watches, another pretty 25 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: stereotypical trappings of rap music. He also uses the N 26 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: word in his wraps, and it's posted content on his 27 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: social media platforms that just did not sit right with 28 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: people because he's not black. I mean, he's not anything. 29 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: He's not a human at all. So, just in case 30 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: it's not clear, fn Mecca is not real. He's an avatar, 31 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: a digital creation of a media company called Factory New, 32 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: started by Anthony Martini and Brandon Lely, neither of hum 33 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: are black. They describe Factory New as a first of 34 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 1: its kind, next generation of music companies specializing in virtual beings, 35 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: so kind of like a talent agency for digital creations 36 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: and avatars. They've also created a crypto wrapper called little Bitcoin, 37 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: which side note kind of sounds like a project designed 38 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: in a labs specifically for me to hate it. But 39 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: back to Ethan Mecca. While he may not be real, 40 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: he does still have a very real, big digital footprint 41 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: with ten point three million followers on TikTok and two 42 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: and two thousand followers on his verified Instagram account, So 43 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: how did FN come to be well? In interview with 44 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 1: Music Business Weekly, Anthony Martini, the executive at New Factory, 45 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: explained saying, not to get all philosophical, but what is 46 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: an artist today? Think about the biggest stars in the world, 47 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: how many of them are just vessels for commercial endeavors. 48 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: So what he's basically arguing is that if we mostly 49 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: engaged with artists vias greens, then they don't really need 50 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: to exist outside of those screens to be relevant. He 51 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: also talked about how scouting for fresh, new human talent 52 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: involves a lot of work, scouring the internet for fresh talent, 53 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: flying out to concerts and meetings, and if you just 54 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: create a digital avatar, you cut out all of that work. 55 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: Anthony Martini goes on to explain how their avatar talents 56 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: are made using thousands of data points compiled from video 57 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: games and social media, and that Factory New has developed 58 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: a proprietary AI technology that analyzes certain popular songs and 59 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: generates recommendations for various elements of song construction like lyrical content, chords, melodies, tempo, sounds, 60 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: et cetera. You get the idea. Fan Mecca's debut single 61 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: called Florida Water, features the actual human rapper Gunna and 62 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: human gaming streamer Clicks, but the reaction to fn Mecca 63 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: has been not good, to say the very least, in 64 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: addition to his use of the N word in its songs. 65 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: Because the whole idea is to make it seem like 66 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: Ethn Meca has a real life despite not being a 67 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: real human. They really fleshed out his universe with images 68 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: and videos, including one pretty cringeing image of himself being 69 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: assaulted by a police officer while in prison, posted on 70 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: his Instagram account with the caption police brutality. What should 71 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: I do? Prison guards keep beating me with the baton 72 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: because I won't snitch. I ain't no rat, So I 73 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: have to say. I just do not like this at all. 74 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: It feels like a media venture that is not run 75 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: by black people, capitalizing off of black trauma, black pain, 76 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: and harmful stereotypes about blackness in this really shallow and 77 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: stereotypical way, and it also raises questions about digital black face. 78 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: Digital black face is a term popularized by Lauren Michelle Jackson, 79 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: a feminist scholar and writer in the Departments of English 80 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: and African American Studies at Northwestern University and the author 81 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: of the book on cultural appropriation called White Negroes. She 82 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: describes digital black face as using the relative anonymity of 83 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: online identity to embody blackness. It can be things like 84 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: using reaction gifts of black people on social media if 85 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: you yourself are not black, or in some cases, adopting 86 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: an entire black online persona, like the owners of the 87 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: popular vegan cooking website formally called Thug Kitchen, who built 88 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: an entire successful online brand off of adopting a really 89 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: stereotypical black scent in their recipes before eventually changing the name. 90 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: And I guess that's kind of what doesn't sit right 91 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: with me about this AI rapper. If f N isn't 92 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: a human, why go out of your way to depict 93 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,799 Speaker 1: him in such highly racialized ways. If you're not trying 94 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: to capitalize on a perceived proximity to blackness, it just 95 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: feels really exploitative. Industry blackout, a collective of black people 96 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: in the entertainment industry committed to changing the community, also 97 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: didn't love it. You might recall that we've actually talked 98 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: about industry Blackout once before, during our episode about Blackout 99 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: Day Back Industry. Blackout responded to the news of f 100 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: N being signed to Capital in an open letter, writing, 101 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: while we applaud the innovation in tech that connects listeners 102 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: to music and enhances the experience, we find fault with 103 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: the lack of awareness and how offensive this caricature is. 104 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: It is a direct insult to the Black community and 105 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: our culture. An amalgamation of gross stereotypes, appropriative mannerisms that 106 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: derived from black artists, complete with slurs infused in lyrics. 107 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: This digital effigy is a careless abomination and disrespectful to 108 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: real people who face real consequences in real life. For example, Gonna, 109 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: a black artist who is featured on a song with 110 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: FN Mecca, is currently incarcerated for wrapping the same type 111 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: of lyrics this robot mimics the differences Your artificial rapper 112 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: will not be subject to federal charges for such. For 113 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: your company to approve this shows a serious lack of 114 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: diversity and a resounding amount of tone deaf leadership. This 115 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: is simply unacceptable and will not be tolerated, which prompted 116 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: Capital to respond by cutting ties with FN and releasing 117 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: a statement saying we offer our deepest apologies to the 118 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: black community for incensitivity in signing this project without asking 119 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: enough questions about equity and the creative process behind it. 120 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: We thank those of you who reached out to us 121 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: with constructive feedback on the past couple of days. Your 122 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: input was invaluable as we came to the decision to 123 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: end our association with this project. In response to all this, 124 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: Anthony Martini, the New Factory executive behind FN Mecca, didn't 125 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: interview with The New York Times, and it really just 126 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: made me feel like he did not get it. Initially, 127 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: he told the Times that blogs latched onto a clickbait 128 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: headline and created this narrative, And in response to that 129 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: cringe e photo of FN Mecca being roughed up by police, 130 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: he said, quote some of the early content, now, if 131 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: you take it out of context, it obviously looks worse 132 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: or different than it was intended. And even though in 133 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: that earlier interview that he did with Music Business Weekly 134 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: where he was really hyping that Mecca's lyrics were generated 135 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: using the company's proprietary AI software. In the interview he 136 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: did with The New York Times after the controversy, Anthony 137 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: Martini really walked that back, saying that S and Mecca 138 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,559 Speaker 1: was in fact primarily an anonymous human rapper who was black. 139 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: It's not this malicious plan of white executives. It's literally 140 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: no different from managing a human artist, except its digital, 141 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: he added. He also said that the team behind F 142 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: and Mecca was quote, actually one of the most diverse 143 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: teams you can get. I'm the only white person involved. 144 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: So this explanation was further complicated by the fact that 145 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: the anonymous black rapper that he was talking about F 146 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: and Mecca being based on has actually spoken up and 147 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: said that Martini's company basically just stole his likeness and 148 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: his voice without credit or compensation. Rapper Kyle the Hooligan 149 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: said that New Factory approached him to be the voice 150 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: of F and Mecca in exchange for equity in the 151 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: company and then basically ghosted him, like use my voice, 152 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: use my sound, use the culture, and literally this left 153 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: me high and dry. I didn't get a dime off 154 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: of nothing, and they got record deals all this stuff. 155 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: I wasn't involved in, no meetings or none of that, 156 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: he said. So, after really defending this project to The 157 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: New York Times, Martini must have had a change of heart, 158 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: because just a few days later, he announced that he 159 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: was also cutting ties with the project, writing it's become 160 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: apparent that I should have done more diligence before joining. 161 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: In the past few days, I've learned of Kyle the 162 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: Hooligan's experience with Mecca, which is deeply at odds with 163 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: my core values. I believe that artists must always be 164 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: at the center of the creative process and must be 165 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: fairly compensated. Mecca is not the only digital creation making 166 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: deals despite not even being human. Let's have a quick 167 00:09:49,400 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: break at her back. Brazilian model and singer Little Michela 168 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: was hired as the arts editor at the Ultra Hip 169 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: Days magazine. She gets sponsored content deals with some of 170 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 1: the biggest brands and fashion like product and has been 171 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: photographed hanging out with some of the biggest celebrities like 172 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: Tracy Ellis, Ross Diplow and Millie Bobby Brown. She's been 173 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: interviewed by Vogue and The Guardian, and was in a 174 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: Kelvin Klein spread alongside model Bella hadid In. Little Michaela 175 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: was named one of Time magazines twenty five most influential 176 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: people on the Internet, only She's not real. Little Michaela 177 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: is a fictional AI rendering of the perfect instagram It girl. Braud, 178 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: the company behind Michaela, is valued at a hundred and 179 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: twenty five million dollars. Little Michaela is considered the world's 180 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: first virtual influencer. She joined Instagram back in She became 181 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: the first digital avatar to ever sign with a talent 182 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: agency when she inked an tracked with c a A, 183 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 1: becoming the company's first ever virtual client. So Michaela is 184 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: really interesting. Her features are designed to be non white, 185 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: but they still exist along a pretty conventional Eurocentric beauty standard. 186 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: Like it almost seems like her creators were trying to 187 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: pluck aspects from black, white and Latino women that are 188 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: considered traditionally desirable, and through the power of digital rendering, 189 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: put them all together on one perfect looking person. She 190 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: has edgy street style, a tan complexion of curbacious but 191 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: on upturned nose, and freckles, and it really re establishes 192 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: a well worn beauty standard that would be difficult for 193 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: any human woman to embody, but it's easy for her 194 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: because she isn't real. Little Michaela's whole thing as an 195 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: influencer is being authentic and relatable. She has dramas and 196 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: breakups just like humans doom. She's also really aligned with 197 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: social justice and activism. She's advocated for lgbt Q causes 198 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: and Black lives matter. But in twenty nineteen, the humans 199 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: who control her took it way too far. Michaela released 200 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 1: a video where she described being assaulted by a man 201 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: in a ride share. She said, sure enough, I feel 202 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 1: this guy's cold, meaty hand touched my leg as if 203 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 1: confirming that I'm real. His hand literally lingers there rubbing 204 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: my skin, and people really did not like it. It 205 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: just felt like a profitable media company was both trivializing 206 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: and capitalizing all of assault, a situation that far too 207 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: many of us have actually experienced in real life. Well, 208 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: Michaela isn't real, so her creators dreaming up a sexual 209 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: assault for her to go through just feels kind of gross. 210 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: Or take the black fashion model, shoot you Graham. She 211 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: has a deep, dark complexion and her Instagram posts are 212 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: always hashtag with things like hashtag melanin, hashtag black girl magic. 213 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: Her image was even reposted by Rihanna's Fanti Cosmetics, a 214 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: makeup line known for its inclusive shades for darker complexions. 215 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: Shootings deep dark skin is oh flawless. It seems unreal, 216 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: and that's probably because she's not real. Shooto is considered 217 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: the first digital supermodel, and she was made using a 218 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: digital three D modeling program by a white male fashion 219 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: photographer in London named Cameron James Wilson. In an interview 220 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: with Bizarre, Wilson said that basically, Shooto is my creation. 221 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 1: She's my art that I'm working on at the moment. 222 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: She's not a real model, unfortunately, but she represents a 223 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: lot of real models today. There's a big kind of 224 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: movement with dark skin models, so she represents them and 225 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: is inspired by them. Wilson maintains that he did not 226 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: have any ill intentions in creating Shoodo, saying it's meant 227 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: to be beautiful art which empowers people. It's not trying 228 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: to take away an opportunity from anyone or replace anyone. 229 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: She's trying to complement those people. And he may very 230 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: well have great intentions, but speaking as a real darkly 231 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: scanned black woman who is a human, it honestly doesn't 232 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: feel great to have someone who wouldn't know anything about 233 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: what that experience is like for us to be capitalizing 234 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: on it. Wilson points out that the digital creations of 235 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: black women that he makes are based on real human 236 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: Black women who might have some level of involvement in 237 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: this project. He's described them as his muses, but being 238 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: a mused does not necessarily mean having a lot of 239 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: agency or say and how this project shows up in 240 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: the world, Like neither Shoe Doo or Wilson as her creator, 241 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: would have any idea what it's actually like to not 242 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: be able to find makeup dark enough for your skin tone. 243 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: And that's because Wilson is a white man, and she 244 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: do doesn't actually have any skin because she's not a 245 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: real person. We humans did not just decide to try 246 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: on our blackness, but the people who make these digital 247 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: avatars did get to decide to create them in this 248 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: way without necessarily having to understand with, or grapple with, 249 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: or even really engage with all of the culture or 250 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: baggage or history that comes along with it. And I 251 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: can absolutely see a world where brands and talent agencies 252 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: with much rather work with a digital avatar meant to 253 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: mimic blackness rather than an actual black human being. Because 254 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: think about it that avatar is never going to call 255 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: them out for saying or doing something insensitive and will 256 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: never express any agency at all because they're not actually real. 257 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: It seems really easy to create an ecosystem where digital 258 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: imitations of blackness become more desirable, not to mention, more 259 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: profitable than the real human thing. Dr Francesca, who researches 260 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: digital media, really summed it up nicely and a piece 261 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: for the Conversation. She writes, many black c g I 262 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: influencers and their origin stories represent pervasive marketplace demand for 263 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: impersonations of black people that center to what maybe warped 264 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: ideas about black life, culture and embodiment. I appreciate the 265 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: work of black people seeking to change the industry, and 266 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: I am interested in how the future of black c 267 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: g I influencers may be shaped by Black people who 268 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: are both creators and muses. And I think that there 269 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: is just really something weird about the fact that Little 270 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: MICHAELA Shoo Doo and fn Mecca get actual deals that 271 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: involve actual human dollars. Companies and brands get to feel 272 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: like they're collaborating with black and brown creators when they 273 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: work with these kinds of digital talents, but really they're not. 274 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: They're just giving money to the companies who create them, 275 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: and it kind of just seems like another opportunity to 276 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: marginalize people who are already marginalized in these spaces. Like 277 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: if brands wanted to work with a queer Brazilian teenager 278 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: like Little Michaela, or a darker skin model like Shooto, 279 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: or a rapper who's been to prison like fn Mecca, 280 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: they could actually book humans with those actual identities or 281 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: lived experiences, not a digital rendering of one. So listen, 282 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: I am fully aware that I probably sound like a 283 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: bit of a curmudgeon here, but that's not it at all. Actually, 284 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: I am very excited about this kind of technology and 285 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: how it might be you and things like media, music, 286 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: and art. There's an entire future of possibility where things 287 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: like AI and avatars blow up boundaries around how we 288 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: think about race, gender, sexuality, ability, and more in really 289 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: interesting and innovative ways. But when you look at a 290 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: project like s and Mecca, it's so clear that that 291 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: same technology could just be used to reinforce and double 292 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: back down on the same harmful, tired stereotypes and tropes 293 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: that we already experience in the real world, which is 294 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,479 Speaker 1: just so sad. With technology, the possibilities are so vast, 295 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,719 Speaker 1: so it's sad to see it be used to reinforce 296 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: the same tired, hurtful sticks. Got a story about an 297 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,479 Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech. I just want to say Hi. 298 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: You can reach us at Hello at tangodi dot com. 299 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangodi 300 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was 301 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: created by me Brigitad. It's a production of iHeart Radio 302 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 1: and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry 303 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almato is 304 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you 305 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: want to help us grow, rate and review us on 306 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. For more podcast from iHeart Radio, check out 307 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get 308 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: your podcasts.