1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from House stuff 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. Caroline, I'm surprised we have not 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: talked about this issue sooner because you and I are 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: always just weeping in the office constantly. It's a play. 6 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: We've got a box of Kleenex is in the studio. Yeah, 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: I've I've invested heavily in waterproof makeup, all of it, 8 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,319 Speaker 1: not just I makeup with my tears. They just it's 9 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: like sloppy, they get all over my cheek. Waterproof lipstick. 10 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: It's horrible. No, I'm surprised that we haven't touched on 11 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: it because when it comes to women, women in the workplace, 12 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: inevitably a conversation about emotions pops up. What really, Yeah, 13 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: need I call out some books, some helpful books from 14 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: Amazon to illustrate my points. Well, you can choose from 15 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: titles such as A Creamers it's always personal navigating emotion 16 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: in the new workplace and this is Yeah, she's very helpful. Yeah, 17 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: she is kind of the go to gal when it 18 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: comes to waterworks in the workplace, and we're going to 19 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: cite her a number of times throughout this podcast. Then 20 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: there's Roxanne Rivera, who outlines her whole stance on crying 21 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: in the workplace with her title there's no crying in Business. 22 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: How women can succeed in male dominated industries. I see 23 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: what she did there with the baseball Also, if you 24 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: have to cry, Go Outside by Kelly Katrone. That's a 25 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: very straightforward title. Yes, she didn't need to write a book, 26 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: she just need to make a poster. Nevertheless, I'm sure 27 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: she sold a number of copies. And then there's more 28 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: touchy feely stuff like emotions in the workplace, understanding the 29 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: structure and role of emotions in the work Wait, now 30 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: an organizational behavior by Robert g. So there's a lot 31 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: of stuff looking into emotions in the workplace, especially as 32 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: in the past thirty years women have really been making 33 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: inroads and climbing the ranks. And we you know, it's 34 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: still the thing of is it okay if you're a woman, 35 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: do let yourself go? A lot of people say no, adamantly, no, 36 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: do not cry, do not show weakness. It will kill 37 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: your career, you won't get a promotion, everyone will hate you. 38 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: But we do have to kick things off. A couple 39 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: of quotes from some incredibly successful women who offer a 40 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: little more nuanced inside on crying in the office. First 41 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 1: from Tina Phey's book Boss a Pants, which I highly recommend, 42 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: she says some people say, never let them see you cry. 43 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: I say, if you're so mad, you could just cry, 44 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: then cry. It terrifies everyone. So crying is a power play. 45 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: It is yes, yes, manute out of one person who 46 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: is very open about her crying, and not only open 47 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 1: about it, but has been quoted about and written about 48 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:12,279 Speaker 1: several times because of her crying is Facebook CEO Cheryl Sandberg, 49 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: who talks about how she doesn't believe that we have 50 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: a professional self from Monday's through Fridays and real self 51 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: for the rest of the time. She says that kind 52 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: of division probably never worked, but in today's world, with 53 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: a real voice and authentic voice, it makes even less sense. 54 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: I've cried at work. I've told people have cried at work, 55 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: and it's been reported in the President Cheryl Sandberg cried 56 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: on Mark Zuckerberg's shoulder, which is not exactly what happened. 57 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: So yeah, she goes on to talk about her emotions, 58 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: and yeah, she she tries to be herself yeah, basically 59 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: saying you can be honest about your strengths and your 60 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: weaknesses and understand the fact that it can be challenging 61 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: to always delineate smoothly between the professional and the personal, 62 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: because the fact of the matter is, at some point, 63 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: whether you are a nude or a lady or whatever 64 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: or else you'd like to identify as sometimes when stings 65 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: get mixed up. But before we get into more of 66 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: the etiquette of workplace emotions and the dues and don'ts 67 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,119 Speaker 1: of crying in the office, let's talk about some science, 68 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: because here's the thing about women and crying in the office. 69 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: We often hear that women are more prone to cry 70 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: because of socialization, which we will touch on, But from 71 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: the get go, we have science against us if the 72 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: goal is to never never show tears, because our tear 73 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: ducks are built differently, the hormones that are found in 74 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: tears are different in men and women, and science is 75 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: still unraveling this mystery of tears. Yeah, well, it's not 76 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: only that our tear ducks are shaped differently. I mean, 77 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: men have larger tear ducks than women do, so when 78 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: the tears well up, more of them are hanging around 79 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: in the men's eye balls than in the women's they 80 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: might spill over. It's down to the cells. The cells 81 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,799 Speaker 1: of female tear glands even looked different from the cells 82 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: in men's tear glands. So, I mean, we're just we're 83 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: wired for so many different reasons. And you mentioned hormones. 84 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: Testosterone helps raise the threshold between emotional stimulus and actually crying, 85 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: so that feeling of like I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm 86 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: not okay, I'm not really okay, I'm not okay, I'm crying. 87 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: That's longer for men than it is for women. Right. 88 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: And another hormone that these scientists have been looking into 89 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: in terms of its role with crying is something called prolactin, 90 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: which we have mentioned before on the podcast in a 91 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,679 Speaker 1: reference to breastfeeding, because it's something found in breast milk, 92 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: and neuroscientists in biochemists at Regent's Hospital and St. Paul, Minnesota, 93 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: William H. Fry, the second Old Fry Jr. Has looked 94 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: into emotional tears and these are to be distinct from 95 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: irritant tears, like when we're crying, when we're crying an onion, 96 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 1: when we're cutting up an onion. If dust gets in 97 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: our eyes, the stuff that comes out of our eyeballs, 98 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: and that happens. These emotional tears that we cry when 99 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: we're real sad or just super stressed out contain proteins 100 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: salt and prolactin, and Fry thinks that because women have 101 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: fifty six more prolactin than men do, that maybe that 102 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: also has something to do with women being more prone 103 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: to emotional tears. Yeah, a lot of the research that 104 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 1: Fry did was back in the eighties, and this was 105 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: when uh, you know, women are fighting against the glass ceiling. 106 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: You know, don't ever let anybody see you cry, you know, 107 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: don't be seen as weak in front of all these 108 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: men that you're working with now. And a lot of 109 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: the examples that he gave in an article that appeared 110 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: in Bloomberg Business Week of women that he had worked 111 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: with or talked to were women who felt like they 112 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: started crying suddenly and uncontrollably, like it just came up 113 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,559 Speaker 1: upon them and they couldn't even stop. And so Fry 114 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: theorized that a good cry helps us release stress. However, 115 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 1: that was back in the eighties. This is still not 116 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: proven and it is very hard to study tears because 117 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: you know, people feel ashamed of crying. They may not 118 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: report exactly why they're crying or that they cried at all, 119 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: and then you've got the whole lab scenario of like, okay, 120 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: Kristen cry. Yeah, it's hard to just get people who 121 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: are not trained actors to summon up emotional tears exactly. 122 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: We're always trying to fight it off, whereas actors are like, 123 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: please let me cry. I want to win an oscar um. 124 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: But yeah, if if it is true that crying does 125 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: help release stress or those stress related hormones that build up, 126 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: then maybe it could actually be healthy at work. I 127 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: mean it might not be socially accepted or looked at 128 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: as something desirable, but hey, if you're gonna be all 129 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: stressed at work, maybe you do need to go sit 130 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: in your car for a minute and and have a 131 00:07:55,880 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: good cry. Perhaps. But speaking of though, that's so realization 132 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: factor we're talking about, you know, fighting the tears. As 133 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: we mentioned, you know, men, especially in westernized countries, are 134 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: more socialized to not cry. That crying is for girls, 135 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: crying is for sissies. Uh. This was something that Luann Brizandine, 136 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: who's a neuropsychiatrist and also author of the Female Brain, 137 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: argues that it's the social conditioning factor that has really 138 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: primed women's impulse to cry and men's I guess, a 139 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: fight against tears. And this was interesting. In a Wall 140 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: Street Journal article, they talked to this guy named Tom Lutz, 141 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: who was a University of California Riverside professor who thinks 142 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: that men not crying in the workplace actually traces to 143 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: the late nineteenth century when factory workers were discouraged from 144 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: indulging in emotion so that it wouldn't interfere with productivity. 145 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: So maybe men not crying at work and now women 146 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: being told to never cry at work especially is a 147 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: product of the industrial revolution. That's interesting. I would like 148 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: to know more about that. Yeah, because there have been 149 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: global surveys on crying in gender and it's found that 150 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: Western women cry much more often than men, whereas the 151 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: gender gaps aren't as large where the countries aren't as industrialized. 152 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: So there might be a component to that. But the 153 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: fact of the matter is whether or not, you know, 154 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: we think that it's okay or not okay for women 155 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: to cry at work. Ladies, we do it, Yeah, And Creamer, 156 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: who we talked about at the top of the podcast, 157 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: worked with ad agency J Walter Thompson to survey twelve 158 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: Americans and found that women under forty five are ten 159 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: times as likely to cry at work as men forty 160 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: five and older. She also found that about of the 161 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: working population overall is made up of people who respond 162 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: to extreme stress by crying. Among women, it's I'm a 163 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: stress crier. I mean, I'm not a big crier overall 164 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: in life. I don't cry a whole lot, but when 165 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: I hit a point where it's just like too much, 166 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 1: I have been known to shut a tear two. Yeah, 167 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: I know things are bad if I'm welling up in 168 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: my chemical And it's not just at work that this 169 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: gender gap of tears is happening. Even though some researchers 170 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: think that men under report the number of times that 171 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: they cry. But again, going back to Dr Fry's research, 172 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: He's found that women cry just in general about four 173 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: times more often than men, with women on a monthly 174 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 1: basis crying five point three times per month, which translates 175 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: to every day of her minstrual cycle. Just kidding, does 176 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: that apply to you at all? Five point three times 177 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: per month if I recently went through a breakup, maybe 178 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: that does seem like a lot. But I don't have 179 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: the in phone in front of me on how large 180 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: this population is, because I'd be curious to see what 181 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: the like the sample ages would be, because that's five 182 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: point three times per month, and then men crying one 183 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: point four times per month, which also seems to me 184 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: kind of high. But again, maybe you and I just aren't. 185 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: Maybe we're just robosts. Were robots robots? Oh no, Caroline 186 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: and Kristen robots podcast robots. And then when it comes 187 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: so to work and Creamer in that same service that 188 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: you mentioned, Caroline found that forty one percent of women 189 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: had cried at work in the past year, compared to 190 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: only nine of men. But what set off women's water 191 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: works differed from what set the dudes off. Women were 192 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: more addled by the content of a negative message. Basically, 193 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: if someone was like, you are a terrible podcaster and 194 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: I think that you're face is stupid, would be like, 195 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: what I'm not? You know, you know, the general you 196 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: this fiction, whereas men would be more upset over the 197 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: tone and communication style. So if they were like, get 198 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: me upset, which is you know, it wouldn't be. Maybe 199 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: that would be if they just don't like to be 200 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: yelled at. Maybe, or if the yeah, if the town 201 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: is frustrating or disrespectful or something. Maybe. But one really 202 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,199 Speaker 1: fascinating part of this research that we're doing on women 203 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 1: and crying is that sure, you know, we assume that 204 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: you know, you might be putting yourself at risk of 205 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: diminished credibility in the workplace if you're caught crying. It 206 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: might make you look bad. It might even reflect poorly 207 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: on other women in the office. But the thing is, 208 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: women might judge other women more harshly for crying. This 209 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: might not think be a thing of male superiors or 210 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: male coworkers getting all weirded up because women are crying 211 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: all the time, but more women being upset at other 212 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: women crying because we have been told to never cry 213 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,839 Speaker 1: in the office, that it is such a terrible thing. Yeah, 214 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: well that all and creamer. She found that of women 215 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: she surveyed considered workplace criers unstable, which suggested serious character flaw, 216 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: as opposed to of men who said criers are merely unprofessional, 217 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: suggesting a forgivable one time lap. So, so, yeah, what 218 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: is it with us being harsher critics, and and is 219 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: it just us staring down the barrel of some old 220 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: stereotypes that we have to battle. I think it is 221 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: the old stereotypes. I think it's also more of a 222 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: direct understanding of maybe the fact that we are still 223 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: having to elbow our way in in certain ways. Yeah, 224 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: Creamer says that the women she finds that the women 225 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: who caution against tears the most are largely quote older 226 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: and part of the battle scarred early generations of women 227 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: who had to emulate the narrow band male emotional spectrum 228 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: to gain entry to the professional arena. And there were 229 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: the series of articles on Forbes around spring written by 230 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: Jenna gudrou about crying in the office, about like who 231 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: does it? Is it okay? What are the percentages? Et cetera. 232 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: And she was writing about it very objectively, but one 233 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: of her colleagues commented on one of the articles. Susannah Breslyn, 234 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: a fellow Forbes contributor, was not She didn't mince words. 235 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: I'll just say that when she commented, Yeah, a lot 236 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: of times we don't quote comments sections from articles that 237 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: were citing in the podcast. But this exchange between Breslin Gudreaux, 238 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: and there was another contributor, Forbes contributor Bonnie Marcus, who 239 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: ended up weighing in as well that I feel like 240 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: sums up this whole women crying in the office issue 241 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: pretty well. It covers all sides of it. So Breslyn right, 242 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: I'm with those people who loathe women crying at work. 243 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: It looks bad, it makes everyone else feel bad, and 244 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: it's embarrassing. It makes me feel embarrassed to be a woman. 245 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: It's not really about crying or about what's going on 246 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: that prompted the tears. It's about self control, and that's 247 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: a chronic problem I see with women in the workplace, 248 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: a lack of self discipline. You can cry all you want, 249 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: but do it in the bathroom. My eyes almost bugged 250 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: out of my head when I read that Breslin is 251 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: a tough cookie. Why you got to be a hater Breslin? 252 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: Geez well. I don't think that Breslin is alone though. 253 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: I mean the very fact that Kramer's survey found that 254 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: went women consider workplace chriers unstable, I think it says 255 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: a lot, and I think that Breslin would probably obviously 256 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: be in that group. Author Jenna Gudreau responded, that's a 257 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: pretty hard line. Do you think you don't like seeing 258 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: women cry because it feels uh? Forbes writer Jenna grou 259 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: Drow then chimed in, that's a pretty hard line. Do 260 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: you think you don't like seeing women cry because it 261 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: feeds into old stereotypes about women being too emotional? Do 262 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: you feel the same way about men who cry? No 263 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: response from Breslin. And then Bonnie Marcus, another forms contributors, says, 264 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: I think that when women cry at work it does 265 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: make their colleagues uncomfortable. People don't know how to react. 266 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: That being said, I don't think we can make a 267 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: blanket statement about crying at work. If she cries all 268 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: the time, it's problematic. Her female colleagues are more likely 269 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: to call her out and chastise her for her display 270 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: of emotions, and it interfere fears with a normal work environment. 271 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: On the other hand, if a woman cries at a 272 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: reaction to a particular issue and it's not usual behavior, 273 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: it's more likely to be accepted by others. And Bonnie 274 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: Marcus brings up a great point about the frequency of crying, 275 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: because if it just so happens that you break down 276 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: every time you get a negative review from a manager, 277 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: maybe there's a little bit of manipulation, go I'm there, um, 278 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: But if it's just you know, everybody has a bad 279 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: day or a bad week. Roxanne Rivera doesn't care. No, 280 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: she doesn't rock. Roxanne Rivera who wrote, as Kristen said, 281 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: there's no crying in business. She said, crying at the 282 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 1: office is the ultimate no. No, nothing will destroy your 283 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 1: credibility faster people. But the subtitle of her book that 284 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: was talking about how to succeed in a male dominated industry, 285 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: So maybe that's the attack that she's taking. And Roxanne 286 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: Rivera would probably also be among the group that an 287 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: Creamer talked about who when she was starting her career 288 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: in the late seventies, she said that she and all 289 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: the other career ladies that she knew were explicitly told 290 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 1: to never cry in the office, but that more modern 291 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: workplaces and gen y our generation Caroline that were changing things. 292 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: They were becoming more emotionally open in the office, and 293 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: that is okay. There was even a Wall Street Journal 294 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: article published in two thousand seven, I believe that was 295 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: talking about how jen wires are more likely to demonstrate 296 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: emotions in the workplace and that employers just need to 297 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: understand that that's how we work. Get with it, old people, 298 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:23,239 Speaker 1: although it also it also made gen Wires seem just 299 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: like spoiled brats who were like, I don't want to 300 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: do my report. Yeah. Psychology professor and author Gene Twins 301 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: said that our generation gen Y was raised with the 302 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: phrase express yourself. I'm sure she wasn't thinking of Madonna, 303 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: which I immediately thought of. But anyway, this this generation 304 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: is accustomed to lavish praise from their parents. So maybe 305 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: when they get a bad review or what would otherwise 306 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: be construed as constructive criticism, maybe they're just so taken aback. 307 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: But I mean, I don't know. I obviously you can't 308 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: make a blanket statement like that because I I'm part 309 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: of that generation and I seek feedback all the time. 310 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: But whatever and whatever, and if jen Wires do need 311 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 1: an exercise and maybe toughening themselves up from the give 312 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: every kid a trophy kind of attitudes that some of 313 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: us were raised with, you should start a podcast, put 314 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: it on iTunes, and then read the reviews because inevitably 315 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: someone's gonna call you a man hating feminazi. Yeah, well 316 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 1: you know that's how we roll. That's actually my vanity 317 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: played on my car. It's it's really long. It's all 318 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: the vowels are taken out in some numbers, so it 319 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: makes no sense at what It's like the theories of 320 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: F and z's and there goes Caroline. Um. I did 321 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: like though, I mean thinking about the whole thing about 322 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: emotions at work and whether to cry or not to cry. 323 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: I did like this perspective offered by psychiatrists Judith Orloff. 324 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: She said, emotional freedom is having a choice of how 325 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: to respond rather than reacting in the moment without control. 326 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: Train yourself so you're not taking off guard. And that 327 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense to me. I feel like 328 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 1: that's that's some some usable knowledge, because yeah, there are 329 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: gonna be times when you you can't once the waterworks start, 330 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: you can't stop, and women have those tiny tear ducks 331 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: and it's just prolactin. Um. So let's get into some 332 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: some more nitti er of the of the how twos, 333 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: What what women advise that you do in the workplace 334 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: when you confront emotion, and what to do if you're crying, 335 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: and how you recover from that. Yeah, definitely give yourself 336 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 1: time and distance to collect yourself after the event, or 337 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: you know whether you're crying or whether it's any outburst, really, 338 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: so let the issue rest and maybe you know, for 339 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: smaller issues, just just a lunch hour could work, or 340 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: a bathroom break, but don't let the break be an 341 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: excuse to dodge the issue. If it was bad enough 342 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: to make you cry or yell or hit something or someone, 343 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 1: then you obviously need to do with the issue. They 344 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,239 Speaker 1: also recommend this I think would be more for an 345 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: outburst than crying, But still you want to make amends 346 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 1: quickly and decisively, so circle back when you're calm and apologize. 347 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: This is not the same as apologizing for the reason 348 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: for the behavior, however, But because we know that crying 349 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: can freak people out, maybe if you responded in a 350 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: way that scared your co workers, maybe circle back and 351 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: just be like, hey, that was crazy yesterday. Let's talk 352 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, Because there is sort of a hierarchy 353 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: of crying in the workplace, where at the very bottom 354 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: of it is some sniffles at your desk or in 355 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: the bathroom that no one really notices, and then you 356 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: get into one on one meetings and then you get 357 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 1: into public meetings, and then you get into public meetings 358 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 1: when you have like investors on the line or something, 359 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like when when there's actual 360 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: when the tears are more tears of anger followed by outbursts, 361 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: and that's when you really have to go back and 362 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: make your personal amends. Yeah. And they do talk about 363 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 1: repairing those relationships and strengthening relationships with the people who 364 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: set you off or intimidate you, And this sounds like 365 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: I thought about it. I was reading that and I 366 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: stopped and I thought about the jobs I have had 367 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: and the people who have upset me and or intimidated 368 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: me or just made me mad, And I was like, God, 369 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to be closer with those people. But 370 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: they say that getting to know someone, maybe not like 371 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: going to drinks with them or anything, but just getting 372 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 1: to know someone and understanding their motivations for the way 373 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 1: they act or speak could be helpful for you. Personally, 374 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 1: you're not going to change anybody, but maybe if you 375 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: get a better perspective on why they speak the way 376 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: they do or act the way they do, maybe you 377 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: can finally take it less personally. Yeah, And that's a 378 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: great way to think about managing emotions in the workplace. 379 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: Some of the advice that we saw on how to 380 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: stop yourself from crying if you are just kind of 381 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: prone to crying. I mean, I know, I know, some 382 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: people are just more prone to tears than others. You 383 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: and I, Caroline, robots to robots, um. But if you 384 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: do feel like you have a crying session coming on, 385 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: the first thing that's usually recommended is to get out. 386 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: Just get out of the room, go to a bathroom. 387 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: Better yet, get out of the building. Practice routine stress 388 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: relievers like doing yoga, breathing, taking brisk walks, boxing, hitting things, 389 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: kicking things. Knowing your triggers as well, kind of under 390 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: like what you talked about, Caroline, understand taking time. If 391 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: you don't get along very well with certain people, taking 392 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,959 Speaker 1: a minute instead of just casting all of your angst 393 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: onto them and say that they're just terrible people, thinking 394 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: a minute to understand what it is about their communication 395 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: style or their management style, whatever it might be that 396 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: is really pushing your buttons. And then also be aware 397 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: of emotional suppression and contagions. Basically, like negative emotions spread 398 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: like viruses throughout the office and can bring you down 399 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: and make you more susceptible to having an episode. Yeah, 400 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: that emotional suppression. This is coming from a Wall Street 401 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: Journal article in they say that it clouds thinking, promotes 402 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: job on happiness, and negatively impacts work performance. So I mean, 403 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,959 Speaker 1: if you're just walking around angry or sitting around at 404 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: your desk angry, and you never get to the root 405 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: of it or fix it or talk to anybody about it, 406 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: you're obviously gonna it's gonna color your perception of work. 407 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 1: And um, I like what Ann Cramer says about tears. Once, 408 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: once you've gotten over the emotional suppression and they're flowing 409 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: and you can't help it. She says that tears are 410 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: like the check engine light on your dashboards, so it 411 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: can help you to be more productive. And I had 412 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: a total check engine light moment when I worked at 413 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: the newspaper years ago. I'm not going to name names, 414 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna say it was a newspaper. Anyway, I 415 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: was living in a town and it wasn't the best. 416 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 1: I had come to a point where I was like, 417 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: you know, I really think I should start looking for 418 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: another job, Like I'm really not satisfied. You know, things 419 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: aren't going so well, but I had a weekend to 420 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: look forward to. I was like, it's okay, I'm going 421 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: I can have my weekend and I can have my 422 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: personal time. And then my supervisor called me and she 423 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: needed me to come in on my weekend and work 424 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: no So I came in. You know, I worked from 425 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 1: ford to midnight, so I come in at four o'clock 426 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: and I I mean, let me repeat, I'm not a crier, 427 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 1: you know, like unless something is really awful or really 428 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: sad or whatever, I'm not much of a crier. I 429 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: sat at that computer for the first I think four 430 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: hours of work that I was there and just cry, 431 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: couldn't stop, like like that kind of ugly crying. Not 432 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 1: only were tears spilling down my face, but I was 433 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: like making noises and my supervisor comes ever. At one 434 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: point she's like put her arm around me. She's like, 435 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: are you okay? Is everything all right? And I'm like yeah, 436 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: I just trying to know what to talk about. It. 437 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 1: That was my check engine light moment. My my engine 438 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: actually exploded when I ended up having a massive stress 439 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: migraine that sent me to the hospital emergency room. Uh 440 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: that's when I quit um. But yeah, it is very 441 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: important to listen to your body and if you are 442 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: crying all the time, or crying for any reason, do 443 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: try to understand what the core issue is. It might 444 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: not just be that you're messing or you're sad or 445 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 1: you woke up on the wrong side of the bed. 446 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: There might be something deep seated, like like a deep 447 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: seated satisfaction with your entire life, you know, just for example, 448 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: Uh that makes you break into tears. Yeah, I think 449 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: it's It's such a good point of how it's important 450 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: to pay attention even if you're not crying, if you 451 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: are just deeply unsatisfied and you're always venting at work 452 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: and there's nothing but negativity. It might sound hokey, but 453 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: it is true. I've had similar experiences before where you 454 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: have to stop yourself and say, wait, wait, wait, wait 455 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: a minute, what is going on? Because you take it 456 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: into your personal life. And that's when what Cheryl Sandberg 457 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: was talking about in terms of delineating between the professional 458 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: and personal and how those lives always end up merging. 459 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: It's the same as bringing your personal into the office 460 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: and taking the office home with you. It can be 461 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: just as as negative and have equally bad impacts. So 462 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you might be good at your job, or 463 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: you know, competent at your job, but if you're crying 464 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: or you find yourself venting or getting upset all of 465 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: the time, look at yourself and look at what you're 466 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,959 Speaker 1: doing for a living, and maybe those two things just 467 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: don't line up. Maybe you're a very creative person who 468 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: needs to be you know, doing something on your own time, 469 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: on your own schedule. Maybe you are somebody who needs 470 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: a more regimented data entry type of thing because that's 471 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: how your brain works. But when those things get out 472 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: of alignment, then your emotions can tend to swell up. 473 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: You don't mean them too, and it can even be 474 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: uh not, you know. And the solution can even be 475 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: something as simple as just needing more support. You know. 476 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to make life 477 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: altering decisions. It's just like you said, it's a good 478 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: check engine, you know. And Creamer, take your metaphorical car 479 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 1: to the psychological mechanics and figure out what's wrong with 480 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: your transmission. Right that means your your brain and your 481 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: heart and stuff. Car analogy over, She got a car 482 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: stop post to come in and do with an episode 483 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: just in car analogies. So the question in the podcast 484 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: title Caroline, is is it okay to cry in the office? 485 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: What do you say? I say not because not because 486 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: you're a woman. Now I don't mean you, I mean 487 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: the general you. It's not that it's not okay to 488 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: cry in the office because you're a woman. I think 489 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: whoever you are, whatever your sex, maybe just go to 490 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: the bathroom. Yeah. Um, if it gets to a point, 491 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: really seriously, take the advice of if you feel it 492 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: boiling over, excuse yourself because it, trust me, it freaks 493 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: people out when you cry. Yeah, I think that it's uh, 494 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: it's not an issue of if you cry in the office, 495 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: you are just disappointing every single woman who's ever had 496 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: a job in her wife. But the whole thing of 497 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: if you're crying, and it's not because of you know, 498 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: all of a sudden someone calls and your grandma died, 499 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: you know those kinds of tears, Yeah, cry in the 500 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: office if uh, you know, those kinds of personal tragedies occur. 501 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: But if if you are crying, it's probably a sign 502 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: that you have not been doing your homework and kind 503 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: of taking care of things to to keep yourself emotionally 504 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: healthy and hopefully happy. We can't be happy all the time, 505 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: but you know, making life manageable. I make to do lists. 506 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: I got a little I got a little choked out 507 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: the other day at work because I found out how 508 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: much I own taxes um and just like that by itself, 509 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: probably I could have been like, Okay, I have a solution, 510 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: It's fine. But it was stressful day. Everything was so 511 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: I was kind of underwater and that was just one 512 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: more thing. And I was like, I didn't cry though 513 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: nothing spilled over. I had big tear ducks that day. 514 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: But what did you do? This sounds like you may 515 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: you were able to manage it. Well, Yeah, because I 516 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: I sat in a dark room for like five minutes 517 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: there you go, and and just did some deep breaths 518 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: and went back to my desk. So now you can 519 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: write a book called if you have to cry, go 520 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: in a dark room. Yeah done, find a closet trunk perhaps, 521 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: and some box wine by Chris and Conger and Caroline Urban. Absolutely, 522 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: so I am very much looking forward to hearing people's 523 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: responses to this, women and men alike. Also because that 524 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: the speaking of men crying in the office all of 525 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: the stuff focuses on women crying in the office because 526 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: men don't cry. Nine percent of men have cried in 527 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: the office in the past year, according to that survey. So, guys, 528 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: what what do you do? Is it just a moot point? 529 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: Is it? Is it? Is it a sex difference in 530 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: managing emotions? Women? Do you think it's bad for other 531 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: women to cry in the office? Any thoughts that you 532 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: have about tears in the workplace? Let us know your thoughts. Mom. 533 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: Stuff at Discovery dot com is where you can send 534 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: your email. Now for a couple of letters, Now, Carolina 535 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: kick things off. I've got an email here from Lindsay 536 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:50,959 Speaker 1: and she's asking for some advice about love, and so 537 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: I thought that it would be great too to maybe 538 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: answer her question on the podcast. She writes, how do 539 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: people know if they are really in love and meant 540 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: to be with another person or if it's just the 541 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: endorphins making them feel addicted and comfortable and safe. To 542 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: give you a little background on myself, I've been dating 543 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: a guy for a year now and I've definitely started 544 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: noticing his flaws, but in my opinion, they still don't 545 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: outweigh the positives. How do you know when you're in love. 546 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: I responded to lindsay that uh to me, because I 547 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: thought about this whole endorphint thing too. It can if 548 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: you learn enough about like the neurochemistry of attraction, it 549 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: can make you a love skeptic. It might have been 550 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: a damper on my dating life from time to time, 551 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: but I told her that you really find out when 552 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: you're in love with someone when those initial endorphins do 553 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: wear off in more of the quieter moments after you're 554 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: not necessarily in the quote unquote honeymoon phase. But what 555 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: happens when it's not amazing? If that makes sense. Not 556 00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: to say that you need tragedy or something horrible to 557 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: happen to test your love, but I'm just saying, if, um, 558 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: when you're not on that little pink cloud anymore, when 559 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: things have come down to earth a little, and you 560 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: guys feel like your actual partners, like you're taking care 561 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: of each other, like you value each other enough that 562 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: you're not just gonna be like, oh, well, I'm not 563 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: feeling butterflies anymore. I'm out of here exactly, not needing 564 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: to float on that pink little cloud to feel comfortable 565 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: and safe. I mean, sure, you could go into the 566 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: argument for days about the chemicals and how they make 567 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: you feel and why they make you feel that way, Like, 568 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: let's keep procreating and keep this whole human race deal going. Yeah, 569 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,959 Speaker 1: but let that be your person if if those are 570 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: the chemicals, you know, if you guys had chemicals, and 571 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: then now maybe you have fewer chemicals. You just have 572 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: different chemicals. I don't know what I'm saying anymore. However, partnership. 573 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: Is that enough words that I just said? No, I 574 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: think that makes sense. I think I told her that. Uh, 575 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: you know, it seems like things are going well if 576 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 1: she's seen the flaws, as she says, in her boyfriend 577 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: of a year, but she doesn't matter all that much. Now. 578 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: If those flaws are him being a crappy boyfriend, then 579 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: that should matter. But in terms of you know, I 580 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: think that's also a good thing. That you know, if 581 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: you always keep someone up on some crazy pedestal, then 582 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: you're both gonna end up pretty disappointed. I think. Yeah, yeah, 583 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: So how do you know if you're in love? There 584 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: are many different answers. Love is not a Disney movie. 585 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: I'll say that much. Okay, Well, I have a letter 586 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: here from a listener who would like to remain anonymous Kristen. 587 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: She's writing in response to our Designer Vagina podcast and says, 588 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: I'm twenty two years old and had a pubic lift 589 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: done when I was eighteen. Not a procedure I heard 590 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: you mentioned on the podcast. It's basically the removal of 591 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: fat from in front of the pubic bone to make 592 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: the volva flatter. It cost me around five thousand Canadian dollars, 593 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: which my parents lent to me. It was an outpatient 594 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: surgery carried out at a private clinic by a cosmetic 595 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: surgeon and only took a few hours. You are right 596 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: on the money when you say it's self confidence issues 597 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: that prompt women to pursue general genital surgery. But I 598 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: don't regret it at all. I am happy with my 599 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: lady parts now. Everything healed well, and the surgeon and 600 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,839 Speaker 1: nurse made sure I was well informed of the risks beforehand. 601 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: I don't miss having a volva that would show through 602 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: clothing or cause anxiety with men. I'm sexually active now 603 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: and have never had any comments on my volva other 604 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: than to tell me that it's beautiful. Though the procedure 605 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 1: itself was scary to think about. It's done nothing but 606 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: good for my self confidence and self acceptance. Although surgeries 607 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 1: of this nature may be a symptom of society's views 608 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: on women, I don't think that women should be criticized 609 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,800 Speaker 1: for wanting them. Addressing deeper psychological issues is perhaps important, 610 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: but society needs to change before the demand for a 611 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: designer vaginas will go away. I would identify as a 612 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,760 Speaker 1: feminist and recognize that my desire for a smaller volva 613 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,839 Speaker 1: comes from my role in a patriarchal culture. But it's 614 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: not easy to step outside of that and accept yourself. 615 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 1: So thank you very much, dear listener. We appreciate your story, 616 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: and we appreciate all the stories that you all send 617 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: into us. Mom Stuff at Discovery dot com is where 618 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: you can send your letters. You can also find us 619 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: on Facebook, which of you have not been to it, 620 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: I highly encourage you to go on there so that 621 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: you can check out our weekly photos that we are posting. 622 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 1: Caroline and I Oh, Caroline and myself owe us in 623 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: celebration of Women's History Month. That's all I'll say. There 624 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: are costumes involved. We gotta kick out of it. We 625 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: hope you will too. And you can tell us so 626 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: much you liked it by tweeting us at mom Stuff Podcast. 627 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: And if you would like to follow us on Tumbler 628 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: as well, you can find us there at stuff Mom 629 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: Never Told You dot tumbler dot com. And as always, 630 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: if you would like to learn earned more stuff this week, 631 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: head over to our website, it's how stuff works dot com. 632 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics. Is 633 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:17,720 Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com. This episode of Stuff 634 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,839 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You is brought to you by Jack 635 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: Threads dot com.