WEBVTT - Weekend Law: Elections Raid, Windmills Win & The Minions 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.520 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.360 There's something centers to going on here. There's something bigger 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:17.759 than just the FBI confiscating the records that they. 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:22.239 Took, and Fulton County Chairman Rob Pitts says they're asking 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.759 a federal court to order the FBI to return the 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:30.000 roughly seven hundred boxes of ballots, voter rolls, and other 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:33.040 election records seized in a raid about a week and 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:36.760 a half ago. Pitt warned that the raid foreshadows further 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:40.040 federal action on elections elsewhere in the country. 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:43.320 This is I think probably the first step in whatever 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:48.560 they're going to do in Tota to depress voter participation, 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:52.720 voter registration, making whatever changes they think are necessary to 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:55.520 help their case in twenty twenty six, but more importantly 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:56.480 in twenty twenty eight. 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:59.920 This is the Jnstice Department has sued twenty four Star 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:04.480 and DC for refusing to turn over voter data, and 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:08.440 President Trump has been doubling down on his calls to 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:10.080 nationalize elections. 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:13.240 I wouldn't see elections be honest, and if a state 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:15.800 can't run an election, I think the people behind me 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:17.080 should do something about it. 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:21.600 Of course, the Constitution gives the authority to administer elections 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:25.440 to the states. My guest is Barbara mcquad, a professor 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.479 at the University of Michigan Law School and a former 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:32.440 US attorney. Barbara, the FBI sees the records using a 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:36.959 grand jury subpoena as part of a criminal investigation. What 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:38.280 do you think is going on here? 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.759 It's unknown, of course, but we have some hints. I mean, 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:46.080 one is they got a search for which means a 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:51.040 magistrate judge found probable cause to believe that evidence of 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.200 a crime would be found there. And we know from 0:01:54.200 --> 0:02:00.720 the public filing that what they obtained were ballots, tabulation tapes, 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:02.520 and voter roles. 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:04.400 Now twenty twenty. 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:08.360 Is six years ago, and so it would seem that 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:12.600 anything that occurred during that year would be time barred 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:15.400 by the five year statute of limitations. But of course 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.640 that's not something that a magistrate judge had taken into 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.799 consideration at that stage. Perhaps there's some allegation of an 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:29.120 ongoing conspiracy that could keep that allegation fresh. I don't know. 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:35.359 But also you can't ignore the simultaneous civil request that 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.280 Trump's doj has been making to try to get voter 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:41.200 rolls from a number of states, including Georgia. They have 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:44.280 failed in states where decisions have been made, like California 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:47.160 and Oregon, where judges have said no, the federal government 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:49.720 is not entitled to this stuff. So are they simply 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.080 using criminal process to get that which they could not 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:53.919 obtain otherwise. 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:56.679 But the fact that a magistrate. 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:59.920 Found probable cause suggests that there is more information than 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:00.960 than we currently know. 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:04.000 The prosecutor whose name was on the warrant was not 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:08.680 the US attorney in Atlanta, but the Saint Louis US attorney, 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:13.680 Thomas Albis, who's been appointed by Attorney General Pam Bondi 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:20.760 to investigate so called election integrity cases nationwide. How unusual 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:24.600 is that sort of skipping over the local US attorney. 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:27.720 Yeah, it's really unusual, but not illegal. 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:31.120 I mean, so much of what the Trump administration does 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:36.200 is technically lawful, but either unusual or you know, discretion 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:39.560 you'd rather see someone not exercise. I suppose ordinarily you 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:41.840 would expect the US attorney from the Northern District of 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:46.400 Georgia to oversee any search conducted within his jurisdiction. That's 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:48.600 the way it's done in ninety nine point nine percent 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.680 of the cases. The Attorney General does, however, have the 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:56.600 authority to appoint a special attorney to investigate any matters 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.280 that she chooses, and we've seen this done over the years. 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.000 For example, Pat Fitzgerald. 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:03.360 Who was the US Attorney in Chicago at the time, 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.120 handled the Scooter Libby case. I think that was an 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:08.600 effort to just sort of get it out of Washington 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:12.600 so that it wouldn't have the stench of politics. I 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.880 know that Anne Tompkins out of North Carolina handled the 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:20.520 prosecution of General Petraeus. For example, John Durham, before he 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:24.040 was the special counsel looking at the origins of the 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:28.760 Russia investigation, actually investigated CIA torture. 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:31.160 At one time, So it's not unprecedented. 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:35.200 It's often in sort of politically charged cases where the 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:38.640 Attorney General may appoint somebody outside of Washington who's a 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.680 US attorney or it doesn't have to be to handle 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:44.920 maybe sensitive cases. And I think it's especially true if 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:49.039 the case might transcend the boundaries of a particular judicial district. 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.520 So maybe this case is going to include not just 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:54.760 Georgia but some other states, so that might make some sense. 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:55.880 I worry a little bit. 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:57.960 I don't know Thomas Albis, but I do know that 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:01.120 he comes from Missouri, and he's got sort of the 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:03.760 association with election. 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:05.440 Deniers that causes me some concern. 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:08.640 And you remember, in twenty twenty, there was a different 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:11.800 US attorney Trump appointed in the Northern District of Georgia 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.400 by the name of B. J. Pack, and he resigned 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.760 in December of twenty twenty when Trump started asking Brad 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.359 Raffensberg or the Secretary of State there to find me 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:24.560 eleven seven hundred and eighty votes. So you wonder if 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:28.440 it isn't the case that these US attorneys who've got 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:33.120 backgrounds as federal prosecutors. As the current US attorney there 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:35.760 in Northern Georgia does I think his name is Hertzberg. 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:38.240 You know, he's a career a USA. But Trump's not 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.640 going to make the same mistake twice, right, He's going 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.200 to make sure he's got somebody he can trust that 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:47.520 Pam Bondy has handpicked to handle this very sensitive operation 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:52.200 as opposed to the person who would ordinarily assign this 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:52.920 case too. 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:56.240 And actually the Special Agent in charge of the Atlanta 0:05:56.360 --> 0:06:00.680 Field Office resigned from his post about a week before 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:04.280 the agent served the war and there was no public explanation. 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:09.040 Yeah, that's another red flag, I suppose. And I don't 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:12.960 know whether he resigned or was fired, and I don't 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:15.719 know why he left. I know cash Pttel has been 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.760 firing agents who had anything to do with either the 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:24.240 Trump investigations or the January sixth investigations, which itself is improper. 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:26.640 There's no allegation that engaged in any misconduct. They just 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:29.080 don't like the cases that they worked on, so we. 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:32.360 Don't know why. But again, that would be another safeguard there. 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.480 The Special Agent in charge of the FBI runs the 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:41.000 FBI office in Atlanta. That office was tasked with conducting 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.640 this search, and so the special Agent in charge would 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:45.400 be someone who'd be in a position to push back 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:47.680 and say, no, we're not going to do this. 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:48.960 I don't think it's lawful. 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.560 I don't think it's an appropriate use of our power, 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:52.479 or at least. 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:53.200 Let's talk about this. 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:57.520 And the fact that he was either fired or resigned 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.440 again is just one more red flag and another irregularity 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:02.279 among many. 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:07.599 And yet another irregularity, Fulton County officials say they're typically 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:12.160 given copies when records are taken but they weren't given 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:15.200 any copies this time by the FBI, and there was 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:20.680 no chain of custody inventory taken when the records were seized. 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:24.520 So basically they don't know exactly what records are missing, 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:28.360 and when the FBI returns the records, they won't be 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:30.920 able to verify if they've gotten everything back. 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:32.080 Oh what a mess. 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.760 I didn't know that, So, you know, the chaos of 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:39.000 the Trump administration never ceases to amaze me. I mean, 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:43.640 of course, ordinarily, when the FBI conducts a search, there 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:46.160 is a whole protocol for how that's done. They get 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.080 training at Quantico for how to do this. There is 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.400 an agent who leads the search, and then there are 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:56.679 other agents assigned to the search. They assign various agents, 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:01.320 at least two to every room that gets searched. When 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.600 there are computers involved, they track what it is they're 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:09.200 taking or whether they're just copying it, and documenting that 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:13.000 carefully is critically important, number one, so that everybody knows 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:15.280 what was taken, so the rightful owner of the property 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:17.800 kind of requested back. But also if you're going to 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.800 use this at evidence at trial, you have to authenticate 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:23.400 it and show that chain of custody so that the 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:26.680 jury knows this isn't something that you just manufactured once 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:29.040 you got back to the FBI office, that you can 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:31.960 have a witness testify. I am the one who showed 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.680 up at the Fulton County Election office on such and 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:38.679 such day. I took this document into my hands, or 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:41.200 I copied it from a computer or whatever it was. 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:43.600 I put my initials on it. I put it in 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:47.559 an evidence bag. I labeled the drive whatever it is, 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:51.600 so that that chain of custody can be retrieved at trial. 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:56.280 It makes me wonder whether they're obtaining this evidence not 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:58.840 so much for any future criminal case, but for some 0:08:58.920 --> 0:08:59.640 other purpose. 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:01.440 I don't know what that purpose would be. 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.480 And I was saving the biggest irregularity for last. Barbara, 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:10.360 the Director of National Intelligence. Tulsi Gabbard was at the raid. 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:13.920 She initially said that President Trump had asked her to 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:17.160 be there, but there have been shifting explanations from the 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.560 administration about why she was at the scene of a 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:25.040 domestic law enforcement operation. Listen to what Attorney General Bondi 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:27.280 said when asked about that D and I. 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:33.080 Gabbard and I are inseparable. We are constantly together, as 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:36.240 are the people behind us. We constantly talk, we collaborate 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:38.800 as a cabinet. We're all extremely close. 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.640 They may be inseparable, but Bondi wasn't at the raid 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:47.960 in Georgia. And in addition, Gabbard facilitated a call between 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:53.040 the President and the FBI agents after the search on speaking. 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:55.800 All of this highly irregular and bizarre. 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.840 So there are two reasons it's bizarre to me that 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:02.640 Tulsi Gabbard was there. Number One, a person at her level, 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:06.280 the Director of National Intelligence, like just should have better 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:06.840 things to do. 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:07.120 Right. 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:10.280 They have trained agents for this work. You would not 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:11.959 expect the Attorney General to be there. 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:14.440 You would not expect the head of the FBI to 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.200 be there, Right, This is in the trenches kind of 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.079 work that agents are trained to do and do every day. 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:22.280 So the idea that she's there, and she's there like, 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:24.040 you know, in a ball cap and everything, Like, what 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.559 is she rolling up her sleeves and grabbing evidence? 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:27.320 I don't think so. 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.400 So just bizarre that she's physically present at the scene, 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:31.000 first of all. 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:32.720 Second of all, this. 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:36.920 Really feels like something way beyond her remit. Her job 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:42.480 is to coordinate intelligence collection among the eighteen intelligence agencies 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.760 in the federal government, and then to report to the 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:49.120 President about the results of those findings, to answer any 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:52.120 questions he may have to advise him about threats to 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:56.760 the national security. These are threats coming from foreign actors, 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:01.640 so that suggests that they're there is some foreign nexus 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:04.880 to this search. I can't imagine what that would be. 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:07.800 It kind of goes back to some of those conspiracy theories. 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:12.360 Remember when Sidney Powell was saying things like dominion falsely, 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:19.199 I'll add dominion voting machines were programmed by Hugo Chavez 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:23.360 in Venezuela, like what? And then remember there was some 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.120 tie to Italy that caused William Barr to actually travel 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.040 there with John Durham when they were investigating the origins 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.800 of the Russian investigation. They never found anything there. The 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:35.280 Inspector General never found anything relating to these things. It 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:39.000 seems like it was all just wild, crazy stuff that 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:43.080 was manufactured. But here we are again with some suggestion 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:45.480 that there's some foreign nexus to all of this. 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:46.800 I don't know what it is. 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:50.640 But if there's not any foreign nexus, highly improper for 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.360 Tulsa Gabbert to be there. But if she's there, it 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:57.680 does raise this specter of is there some foreign nexus 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.240 to this? And I just can't imagine where this is going. 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:02.760 But brace yourself, June. 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:06.520 I've been bracing myself every day. Thanks so much, Barbara. 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.640 That's Professor Barbara McQuaid of the University of Michigan Law School. 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:15.480 Coming up next. The score is windmills five Trump zero. 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:18.359 I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:22.920 Did I know windmills very much. 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:24.840 I've studied it better than anybody. 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:26.839 You'll see these things all over the place. 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:28.160 They destroy everything. 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.480 They're horrible and the most expensive energy there is. They 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:36.080 ruin the environment, they kill the birds, they kill the wealth. Darling, 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.719 I want to watch Donald Trump on television tonight, but 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.080 the winds stop blowing and I can't watch. 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:44.920 There's no electricity in the house. 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:45.360 Darling. 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:47.800 You want to see a bird cemetery, go under a 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:49.720 windmill sometime you'll see the status. 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.760 President Donald Trump has been a vehement critic of wind 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:58.760 power for years, deriding wind turbines as bird killing eye 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:03.720 sores and wmalsely claiming it's the most expensive form of energy, 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:09.800 causes cancer and drives whales crazy. And Trump has aggressively 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:13.559 tried to cripple the wind power industry in his second term. 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.560 Within hours of returning to the White House in twenty 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.559 twenty five, he issued a directive that froze new permitting 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:25.280 for wind energy and ordered officials to consider terminating any 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:26.480 existing leases. 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:28.000 We don't allow windmills. 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:29.880 We're not allowing any windmills to go up. 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:33.880 And so in December, the Department of the Interior ordered 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:38.000 a pause on five multi billion dollar wind farm projects 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:43.920 under construction, saying it was due to unspecified national security concerns. 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.959 While this week, for the fifth time, a federal judge 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:53.199 found that the administration's permitting freeze was illegal and granted 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:57.880 a preliminary injunction to block its stop work order. Now 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:00.920 all five of the wind farms plaus and in federal 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:04.360 waters have gotten the go ahead from judges, although the 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:08.200 Trump administration says it will keep finding them in court. 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:12.240 My guest is an expert in environmental law, Pat Parento, 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:15.960 a professor at the Vermont Law and Graduate School. Pat 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.360 tell us what happened when five different judges took a 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:23.360 look at the Interior Department stop work orders on these 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:24.920 wind farm projects. 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:29.160 So Trump is zero for five basically in these cases. 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.400 And the interesting thing is these are a variety of judges. 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.880 Two of them were appointed by Trump, and a third one, 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:38.880 Royce Lambert, who just issued the final nail in the 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.720 coffin for this stop work order. He was nominated by 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:46.880 Ronald Reagan. So you know, we're not talking about woke judges. 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:51.440 We're talking about conservative judges. All of them, without exception, 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.200 have said that this order, this stop work order on 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:59.280 five offshore wind projects, but which by the way, is 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:03.760 six pigawatts. Okay, it's designed to serve more than two 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:07.880 and a half million homes and businesses all up and 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:09.880 down the East Coast. So you know, this is a 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:14.320 really really significant amount of electricity that the stop work 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.440 order has tried to halt. So there's a preliminary injunction 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.080 against all of the stop work orders at this point. 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:25.360 The Trump administration, the Interior Department, has said that they're 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:29.520 suspending these because of national security risks. It didn't disclose 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:32.960 the security risk, but it claimed that the Department of 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:38.720 Defense provided new classified information about advances and adversary technologies 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:43.600 that could raise national security issues with offshore wind projects. 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:48.120 I'm not sure what that means. And Judge Lamberth looked 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:51.760 at those confidential documents and said he didn't get it. 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.240 He didn't see the security risks right. 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:57.280 He said, there was no proof of imminent threat to 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:01.440 national security at all. On the other hand, he said 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.120 that stopping the work orders was going to cost these 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:07.840 companies two million dollars a day. One of the projects, 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:12.400 Vineyard Win, was ninety five percent complete, it's already sending 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:16.960 some electricity to the grid. And two of the other projects, 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.240 one of them was forty percent complete, the other one 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:22.440 sixty five percent complete. So you got to remember these 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:26.240 are projects that have gone through an incredible amount of vetting, 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:32.040 including Department of Defense vetting, including clearance from the Department 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.880 of Defense. Of course, that was the Department of Defense 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:38.160 before Trump. So when Trump now comes up with these 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:43.760 secret classified documents demonstrating a threat to national security, and 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.080 as you point out, Jadge Lambeth looked at them and said, 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:49.440 I don't see it, it does raise the serious question 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.640 is this all just a pretext for Trump's you know, 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:59.680 well known animosity, outright hostility to win power. And it 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:02.440 all comes from the fact that he owns a golf 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:05.280 course in Scotland and from his golf course, you can 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:08.719 see wind farms off the coast of Scotland generating all 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.760 kinds of clean electricity. He doesn't like the look of them. 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:14.440 He's come up with all kinds of reasons why they're bad. 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:17.760 They cause cancer, no they don't. They kill a disproportionate 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:21.000 number of birds, No they don't. They're unreliable, no they're not. 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:24.720 They're too expensive, No they're not. So that's where we are. 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:27.399 Pat You left out that Trump says they drive the 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:28.520 whales crazy. 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:31.680 Oh, the whales, don't forget the whales. Yeah, and all 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:33.960 of this has been true. And you know, years and 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.879 years not only of vetting in the agencies, but the 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:40.439 whale issue in particular has been up and down the 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:43.920 courts in the first circuit and the second circuit repeatedly, 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:47.480 and none of the cases have found a serious threat 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:49.840 to the whales. Believe me, if there was a serious 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.560 threat to the whales, you'd be hearing about it from me. 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:55.479 That's true. I know all the work you've done on 0:17:55.600 --> 0:18:00.000 preserving wildlife and endangered species. Do you think another reason 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:04.080 that Trump may object to wind power is that he 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:08.000 wants more power to be generated from natural gas, coal, 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:13.000 and nuclear energy. There's also the fact that former President 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:18.000 Joe Biden supported renewable energy with things like tax credits. 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:22.080 Yeah, anything that Biden supported, he's going to kill. And 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:25.679 you know, these arguments just fall apart the studies that 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:29.320 have been done by banks serious people. Right, I'll say 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:33.480 that wind and solar energy are the cheapest forms of 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:37.200 energy to bring online quickly. Not that they're going to 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:39.880 solve all of our problems. They're not. You need base 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:43.879 load electricity, But when it comes to really costing out, 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:47.600 you know, the life cycle costs of these various energy 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:51.639 transmission options, and you look at everything from where do 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:54.760 you get the materials, you know, whether it's fuel or 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:58.080 other things to build these systems, and then how much 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:01.400 does it cost to buy the fuel for these systems? 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.600 Just think about it. The wind is free, the sun 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:09.720 is free. Once you've installed these systems, these wind turbines offshore, 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:14.679 you don't suffer the fluctuations of gas prices. You know, 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.800 you don't have oil spills. You have wind spills, but 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:23.399 not oil spills. So the sober analysis of renewables is 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:28.000 saying to meet the growing demand for electricity, including the 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:32.280 huge one from AI data, centers. You need more wind 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:35.359 and solar, You need all kinds of forms of energy, 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:39.160 but you in particular need projects that are almost complete 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:39.920 and ready to go. 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:43.280 The White House said they're going to continue fighting in court. 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.840 Do you think that appellate courts might have a different viewpoint? 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:51.119 They might, You know, you always have to leave open 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:55.840 the possibility that a different panel of judges would reach 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:59.960 a different conclusion. But the point is that the evidence 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:05.240 here of a national security threat consists of a document 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:09.200 or documents, right, and so you don't have witnesses. Yeah, 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:11.560 I mean some other judges might look at these documents 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:14.560 and reach a different conclusion than Judge Lamberts did. But 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:18.359 the rule is the trial court's decision to issue an 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:22.479 injunction if it's reasonable, right, if it's based on an 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:27.119 analysis of whether the government's stated reason for these stop 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.679 work orders passes muster. I don't think the courts of 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:34.000 appeal are going to overturn these preliminary injunctions. The cases 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:38.399 are preceding the proponents of these projects, primarily or Sted, 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:42.679 the Denmark firm. They're bounded determined to work with the 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:46.520 Trump administration to resolve whatever their questions are. The real 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:51.040 question is with the signals coming from these wind turbines 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:56.040 to the grid, would they interfere with military radar readings. 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:58.480 That's what it comes down to. And you know, the 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:00.800 companies are saying, hey, look, if if you need more 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.880 safeguards and more mitigation of whatever risks you think there are, 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.439 we're all about addressing that and fixing that. We have 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:13.960 decades of experience with building these systems, running these systems. 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:17.000 In every country in which they're operating, they have the 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:22.560 same set of radar and military needs and national security needs, 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:25.439 and if there are issues out there, they can be 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:26.119 dealt with. 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.840 Pat Despite the fact that the Trump administration is losing 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:33.320 in court, court battle after court battle over the wind farms, 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:36.959 the shift in policy under Trump, I mean even the 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:40.920 so called One Big Beautiful Bill sped up the phase 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:46.160 out of federal tax credits for offshore wind projects. So 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:50.119 has the policy shift and this general assault on wind 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:53.879 power increase the risks of investing in it so that 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:57.080 it's unlikely that you'll have new projects. The ones that 0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:00.639 are ongoing now they'll fight to keep, but new projects, 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:02.719 I mean, I think the government's not even going to 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:04.440 approve new projects. 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:08.440 Yeah, yes, that is the bigger threat here that they're 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.479 going to discourage investment. And when you think about it, 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:15.119 this is foreign investment. This isn't costing US companies or 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:18.199 US taxpayers and nickel to build these things. This is 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:21.440 free money that we're getting, and it's billions and billions 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:24.160 of dollars. And oh, by the way, if you think 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:29.320 about it, just simply delaying these five projects at two 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:32.560 million dollars a day, who do you think is ultimately 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:36.320 going to pay for that? The consumers of electricity. And 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:39.600 so there are studies out there saying an extended delay 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:43.520 like this could cost consumers billions of dollars because of 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:47.000 the amount of electricity that these would generate. So the 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:52.000 chilling effect on investment is the goal of this administration. 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:54.920 I mean, they don't really care if they lose in court. 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:57.720 They'll just keep appealing if they can, all the way 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:00.760 to the Supreme Court if they can. But their real 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:05.800