1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 2: There's something centers to going on here. There's something bigger 3 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 2: than just the FBI confiscating the records that they. 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 3: Took, and Fulton County Chairman Rob Pitts says they're asking 5 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 3: a federal court to order the FBI to return the 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 3: roughly seven hundred boxes of ballots, voter rolls, and other 7 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 3: election records seized in a raid about a week and 8 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 3: a half ago. Pitt warned that the raid foreshadows further 9 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 3: federal action on elections elsewhere in the country. 10 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: This is I think probably the first step in whatever 11 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 2: they're going to do in Tota to depress voter participation, 12 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 2: voter registration, making whatever changes they think are necessary to 13 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 2: help their case in twenty twenty six, but more importantly 14 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty eight. 15 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 3: This is the Jnstice Department has sued twenty four Star 16 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 3: and DC for refusing to turn over voter data, and 17 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 3: President Trump has been doubling down on his calls to 18 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 3: nationalize elections. 19 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: I wouldn't see elections be honest, and if a state 20 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: can't run an election, I think the people behind me 21 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: should do something about it. 22 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 3: Of course, the Constitution gives the authority to administer elections 23 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 3: to the states. My guest is Barbara mcquad, a professor 24 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 3: at the University of Michigan Law School and a former 25 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 3: US attorney. Barbara, the FBI sees the records using a 26 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 3: grand jury subpoena as part of a criminal investigation. What 27 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 3: do you think is going on here? 28 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,759 Speaker 4: It's unknown, of course, but we have some hints. I mean, 29 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 4: one is they got a search for which means a 30 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 4: magistrate judge found probable cause to believe that evidence of 31 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 4: a crime would be found there. And we know from 32 00:01:54,200 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 4: the public filing that what they obtained were ballots, tabulation tapes, 33 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 4: and voter roles. 34 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 5: Now twenty twenty. 35 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 4: Is six years ago, and so it would seem that 36 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 4: anything that occurred during that year would be time barred 37 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 4: by the five year statute of limitations. But of course 38 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 4: that's not something that a magistrate judge had taken into 39 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 4: consideration at that stage. Perhaps there's some allegation of an 40 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 4: ongoing conspiracy that could keep that allegation fresh. I don't know. 41 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 4: But also you can't ignore the simultaneous civil request that 42 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 4: Trump's doj has been making to try to get voter 43 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 4: rolls from a number of states, including Georgia. They have 44 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 4: failed in states where decisions have been made, like California 45 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 4: and Oregon, where judges have said no, the federal government 46 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 4: is not entitled to this stuff. So are they simply 47 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 4: using criminal process to get that which they could not 48 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 4: obtain otherwise. 49 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,679 Speaker 5: But the fact that a magistrate. 50 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 4: Found probable cause suggests that there is more information than 51 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 4: than we currently know. 52 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 3: The prosecutor whose name was on the warrant was not 53 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 3: the US attorney in Atlanta, but the Saint Louis US attorney, 54 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 3: Thomas Albis, who's been appointed by Attorney General Pam Bondi 55 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 3: to investigate so called election integrity cases nationwide. How unusual 56 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 3: is that sort of skipping over the local US attorney. 57 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's really unusual, but not illegal. 58 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 4: I mean, so much of what the Trump administration does 59 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 4: is technically lawful, but either unusual or you know, discretion 60 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 4: you'd rather see someone not exercise. I suppose ordinarily you 61 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 4: would expect the US attorney from the Northern District of 62 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 4: Georgia to oversee any search conducted within his jurisdiction. That's 63 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 4: the way it's done in ninety nine point nine percent 64 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 4: of the cases. The Attorney General does, however, have the 65 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 4: authority to appoint a special attorney to investigate any matters 66 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 4: that she chooses, and we've seen this done over the years. 67 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 5: For example, Pat Fitzgerald. 68 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 4: Who was the US Attorney in Chicago at the time, 69 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 4: handled the Scooter Libby case. I think that was an 70 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 4: effort to just sort of get it out of Washington 71 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 4: so that it wouldn't have the stench of politics. I 72 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 4: know that Anne Tompkins out of North Carolina handled the 73 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 4: prosecution of General Petraeus. For example, John Durham, before he 74 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 4: was the special counsel looking at the origins of the 75 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 4: Russia investigation, actually investigated CIA torture. 76 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 5: At one time, So it's not unprecedented. 77 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 4: It's often in sort of politically charged cases where the 78 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 4: Attorney General may appoint somebody outside of Washington who's a 79 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 4: US attorney or it doesn't have to be to handle 80 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 4: maybe sensitive cases. And I think it's especially true if 81 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 4: the case might transcend the boundaries of a particular judicial district. 82 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 4: So maybe this case is going to include not just 83 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 4: Georgia but some other states, so that might make some sense. 84 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 5: I worry a little bit. 85 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 4: I don't know Thomas Albis, but I do know that 86 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 4: he comes from Missouri, and he's got sort of the 87 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 4: association with election. 88 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 5: Deniers that causes me some concern. 89 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 4: And you remember, in twenty twenty, there was a different 90 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 4: US attorney Trump appointed in the Northern District of Georgia 91 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 4: by the name of B. J. Pack, and he resigned 92 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 4: in December of twenty twenty when Trump started asking Brad 93 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 4: Raffensberg or the Secretary of State there to find me 94 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 4: eleven seven hundred and eighty votes. So you wonder if 95 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 4: it isn't the case that these US attorneys who've got 96 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 4: backgrounds as federal prosecutors. As the current US attorney there 97 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 4: in Northern Georgia does I think his name is Hertzberg. 98 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 4: You know, he's a career a USA. But Trump's not 99 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 4: going to make the same mistake twice, right, He's going 100 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 4: to make sure he's got somebody he can trust that 101 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 4: Pam Bondy has handpicked to handle this very sensitive operation 102 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 4: as opposed to the person who would ordinarily assign this 103 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 4: case too. 104 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 3: And actually the Special Agent in charge of the Atlanta 105 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 3: Field Office resigned from his post about a week before 106 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 3: the agent served the war and there was no public explanation. 107 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's another red flag, I suppose. And I don't 108 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 4: know whether he resigned or was fired, and I don't 109 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 4: know why he left. I know cash Pttel has been 110 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 4: firing agents who had anything to do with either the 111 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 4: Trump investigations or the January sixth investigations, which itself is improper. 112 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 5: There's no allegation that engaged in any misconduct. They just 113 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 5: don't like the cases that they worked on, so we. 114 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 4: Don't know why. But again, that would be another safeguard there. 115 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 4: The Special Agent in charge of the FBI runs the 116 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 4: FBI office in Atlanta. That office was tasked with conducting 117 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 4: this search, and so the special Agent in charge would 118 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 4: be someone who'd be in a position to push back 119 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 4: and say, no, we're not going to do this. 120 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 5: I don't think it's lawful. 121 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 4: I don't think it's an appropriate use of our power, 122 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 4: or at least. 123 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 5: Let's talk about this. 124 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 4: And the fact that he was either fired or resigned 125 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 4: again is just one more red flag and another irregularity 126 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 4: among many. 127 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 3: And yet another irregularity, Fulton County officials say they're typically 128 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 3: given copies when records are taken but they weren't given 129 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 3: any copies this time by the FBI, and there was 130 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 3: no chain of custody inventory taken when the records were seized. 131 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 3: So basically they don't know exactly what records are missing, 132 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 3: and when the FBI returns the records, they won't be 133 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 3: able to verify if they've gotten everything back. 134 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 5: Oh what a mess. 135 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 4: I didn't know that, So, you know, the chaos of 136 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 4: the Trump administration never ceases to amaze me. I mean, 137 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 4: of course, ordinarily, when the FBI conducts a search, there 138 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 4: is a whole protocol for how that's done. They get 139 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 4: training at Quantico for how to do this. There is 140 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 4: an agent who leads the search, and then there are 141 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,679 Speaker 4: other agents assigned to the search. They assign various agents, 142 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 4: at least two to every room that gets searched. When 143 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 4: there are computers involved, they track what it is they're 144 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 4: taking or whether they're just copying it, and documenting that 145 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 4: carefully is critically important, number one, so that everybody knows 146 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 4: what was taken, so the rightful owner of the property 147 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 4: kind of requested back. But also if you're going to 148 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 4: use this at evidence at trial, you have to authenticate 149 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 4: it and show that chain of custody so that the 150 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 4: jury knows this isn't something that you just manufactured once 151 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 4: you got back to the FBI office, that you can 152 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 4: have a witness testify. I am the one who showed 153 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 4: up at the Fulton County Election office on such and 154 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 4: such day. I took this document into my hands, or 155 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 4: I copied it from a computer or whatever it was. 156 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 4: I put my initials on it. I put it in 157 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 4: an evidence bag. I labeled the drive whatever it is, 158 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 4: so that that chain of custody can be retrieved at trial. 159 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 4: It makes me wonder whether they're obtaining this evidence not 160 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 4: so much for any future criminal case, but for some 161 00:08:58,920 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 4: other purpose. 162 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 5: I don't know what that purpose would be. 163 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 3: And I was saving the biggest irregularity for last. Barbara, 164 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 3: the Director of National Intelligence. Tulsi Gabbard was at the raid. 165 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 3: She initially said that President Trump had asked her to 166 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 3: be there, but there have been shifting explanations from the 167 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 3: administration about why she was at the scene of a 168 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 3: domestic law enforcement operation. Listen to what Attorney General Bondi 169 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 3: said when asked about that D and I. 170 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 6: Gabbard and I are inseparable. We are constantly together, as 171 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 6: are the people behind us. We constantly talk, we collaborate 172 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 6: as a cabinet. We're all extremely close. 173 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 3: They may be inseparable, but Bondi wasn't at the raid 174 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 3: in Georgia. And in addition, Gabbard facilitated a call between 175 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 3: the President and the FBI agents after the search on speaking. 176 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 5: All of this highly irregular and bizarre. 177 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 4: So there are two reasons it's bizarre to me that 178 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 4: Tulsi Gabbard was there. Number One, a person at her level, 179 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 4: the Director of National Intelligence, like just should have better 180 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 4: things to do. 181 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 7: Right. 182 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 5: They have trained agents for this work. You would not 183 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:11,959 Speaker 5: expect the Attorney General to be there. 184 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 4: You would not expect the head of the FBI to 185 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 4: be there, Right, This is in the trenches kind of 186 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 4: work that agents are trained to do and do every day. 187 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 4: So the idea that she's there, and she's there like, 188 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 4: you know, in a ball cap and everything, Like, what 189 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 4: is she rolling up her sleeves and grabbing evidence? 190 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 5: I don't think so. 191 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 4: So just bizarre that she's physically present at the scene, 192 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 4: first of all. 193 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 5: Second of all, this. 194 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 4: Really feels like something way beyond her remit. Her job 195 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 4: is to coordinate intelligence collection among the eighteen intelligence agencies 196 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 4: in the federal government, and then to report to the 197 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 4: President about the results of those findings, to answer any 198 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 4: questions he may have to advise him about threats to 199 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 4: the national security. These are threats coming from foreign actors, 200 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 4: so that suggests that they're there is some foreign nexus 201 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 4: to this search. I can't imagine what that would be. 202 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 4: It kind of goes back to some of those conspiracy theories. 203 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 4: Remember when Sidney Powell was saying things like dominion falsely, 204 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 4: I'll add dominion voting machines were programmed by Hugo Chavez 205 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 4: in Venezuela, like what? And then remember there was some 206 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 4: tie to Italy that caused William Barr to actually travel 207 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 4: there with John Durham when they were investigating the origins 208 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 4: of the Russian investigation. They never found anything there. The 209 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 4: Inspector General never found anything relating to these things. It 210 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 4: seems like it was all just wild, crazy stuff that 211 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 4: was manufactured. But here we are again with some suggestion 212 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 4: that there's some foreign nexus to all of this. 213 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 5: I don't know what it is. 214 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 4: But if there's not any foreign nexus, highly improper for 215 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 4: Tulsa Gabbert to be there. But if she's there, it 216 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 4: does raise this specter of is there some foreign nexus 217 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 4: to this? And I just can't imagine where this is going. 218 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 4: But brace yourself, June. 219 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 3: I've been bracing myself every day. Thanks so much, Barbara. 220 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 3: That's Professor Barbara McQuaid of the University of Michigan Law School. 221 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 3: Coming up next. The score is windmills five Trump zero. 222 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,359 Speaker 3: I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. 223 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 8: Did I know windmills very much. 224 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 2: I've studied it better than anybody. 225 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 8: You'll see these things all over the place. 226 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 5: They destroy everything. 227 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: They're horrible and the most expensive energy there is. They 228 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: ruin the environment, they kill the birds, they kill the wealth. Darling, 229 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,719 Speaker 1: I want to watch Donald Trump on television tonight, but 230 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: the winds stop blowing and I can't watch. 231 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 8: There's no electricity in the house. 232 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 7: Darling. 233 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: You want to see a bird cemetery, go under a 234 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: windmill sometime you'll see the status. 235 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 3: President Donald Trump has been a vehement critic of wind 236 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 3: power for years, deriding wind turbines as bird killing eye 237 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 3: sores and wmalsely claiming it's the most expensive form of energy, 238 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 3: causes cancer and drives whales crazy. And Trump has aggressively 239 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 3: tried to cripple the wind power industry in his second term. 240 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 3: Within hours of returning to the White House in twenty 241 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 3: twenty five, he issued a directive that froze new permitting 242 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 3: for wind energy and ordered officials to consider terminating any 243 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 3: existing leases. 244 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 8: We don't allow windmills. 245 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 5: We're not allowing any windmills to go up. 246 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 3: And so in December, the Department of the Interior ordered 247 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 3: a pause on five multi billion dollar wind farm projects 248 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 3: under construction, saying it was due to unspecified national security concerns. 249 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 3: While this week, for the fifth time, a federal judge 250 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 3: found that the administration's permitting freeze was illegal and granted 251 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 3: a preliminary injunction to block its stop work order. Now 252 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 3: all five of the wind farms plaus and in federal 253 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 3: waters have gotten the go ahead from judges, although the 254 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 3: Trump administration says it will keep finding them in court. 255 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 3: My guest is an expert in environmental law, Pat Parento, 256 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 3: a professor at the Vermont Law and Graduate School. Pat 257 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 3: tell us what happened when five different judges took a 258 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 3: look at the Interior Department stop work orders on these 259 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 3: wind farm projects. 260 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 7: So Trump is zero for five basically in these cases. 261 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 7: And the interesting thing is these are a variety of judges. 262 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 7: Two of them were appointed by Trump, and a third one, 263 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 7: Royce Lambert, who just issued the final nail in the 264 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 7: coffin for this stop work order. He was nominated by 265 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 7: Ronald Reagan. So you know, we're not talking about woke judges. 266 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 7: We're talking about conservative judges. All of them, without exception, 267 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 7: have said that this order, this stop work order on 268 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 7: five offshore wind projects, but which by the way, is 269 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 7: six pigawatts. Okay, it's designed to serve more than two 270 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 7: and a half million homes and businesses all up and 271 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 7: down the East Coast. So you know, this is a 272 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 7: really really significant amount of electricity that the stop work 273 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 7: order has tried to halt. So there's a preliminary injunction 274 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 7: against all of the stop work orders at this point. 275 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 3: The Trump administration, the Interior Department, has said that they're 276 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 3: suspending these because of national security risks. It didn't disclose 277 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 3: the security risk, but it claimed that the Department of 278 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 3: Defense provided new classified information about advances and adversary technologies 279 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 3: that could raise national security issues with offshore wind projects. 280 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 3: I'm not sure what that means. And Judge Lamberth looked 281 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 3: at those confidential documents and said he didn't get it. 282 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 3: He didn't see the security risks right. 283 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 7: He said, there was no proof of imminent threat to 284 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 7: national security at all. On the other hand, he said 285 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 7: that stopping the work orders was going to cost these 286 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 7: companies two million dollars a day. One of the projects, 287 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 7: Vineyard Win, was ninety five percent complete, it's already sending 288 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 7: some electricity to the grid. And two of the other projects, 289 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 7: one of them was forty percent complete, the other one 290 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 7: sixty five percent complete. So you got to remember these 291 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 7: are projects that have gone through an incredible amount of vetting, 292 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 7: including Department of Defense vetting, including clearance from the Department 293 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 7: of Defense. Of course, that was the Department of Defense 294 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 7: before Trump. So when Trump now comes up with these 295 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 7: secret classified documents demonstrating a threat to national security, and 296 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 7: as you point out, Jadge Lambeth looked at them and said, 297 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 7: I don't see it, it does raise the serious question 298 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 7: is this all just a pretext for Trump's you know, 299 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 7: well known animosity, outright hostility to win power. And it 300 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 7: all comes from the fact that he owns a golf 301 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 7: course in Scotland and from his golf course, you can 302 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,719 Speaker 7: see wind farms off the coast of Scotland generating all 303 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 7: kinds of clean electricity. He doesn't like the look of them. 304 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 7: He's come up with all kinds of reasons why they're bad. 305 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 7: They cause cancer, no they don't. They kill a disproportionate 306 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 7: number of birds, No they don't. They're unreliable, no they're not. 307 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 7: They're too expensive, No they're not. So that's where we are. 308 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 3: Pat You left out that Trump says they drive the 309 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 3: whales crazy. 310 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 7: Oh, the whales, don't forget the whales. Yeah, and all 311 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 7: of this has been true. And you know, years and 312 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 7: years not only of vetting in the agencies, but the 313 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 7: whale issue in particular has been up and down the 314 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 7: courts in the first circuit and the second circuit repeatedly, 315 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 7: and none of the cases have found a serious threat 316 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 7: to the whales. Believe me, if there was a serious 317 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 7: threat to the whales, you'd be hearing about it from me. 318 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,479 Speaker 3: That's true. I know all the work you've done on 319 00:17:55,600 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 3: preserving wildlife and endangered species. Do you think another reason 320 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 3: that Trump may object to wind power is that he 321 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 3: wants more power to be generated from natural gas, coal, 322 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 3: and nuclear energy. There's also the fact that former President 323 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 3: Joe Biden supported renewable energy with things like tax credits. 324 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 7: Yeah, anything that Biden supported, he's going to kill. And 325 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 7: you know, these arguments just fall apart the studies that 326 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 7: have been done by banks serious people. Right, I'll say 327 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 7: that wind and solar energy are the cheapest forms of 328 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 7: energy to bring online quickly. Not that they're going to 329 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 7: solve all of our problems. They're not. You need base 330 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 7: load electricity, But when it comes to really costing out, 331 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 7: you know, the life cycle costs of these various energy 332 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 7: transmission options, and you look at everything from where do 333 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 7: you get the materials, you know, whether it's fuel or 334 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 7: other things to build these systems, and then how much 335 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 7: does it cost to buy the fuel for these systems? 336 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 7: Just think about it. The wind is free, the sun 337 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 7: is free. Once you've installed these systems, these wind turbines offshore, 338 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 7: you don't suffer the fluctuations of gas prices. You know, 339 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 7: you don't have oil spills. You have wind spills, but 340 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 7: not oil spills. So the sober analysis of renewables is 341 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 7: saying to meet the growing demand for electricity, including the 342 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 7: huge one from AI data, centers. You need more wind 343 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 7: and solar, You need all kinds of forms of energy, 344 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 7: but you in particular need projects that are almost complete 345 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 7: and ready to go. 346 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 3: The White House said they're going to continue fighting in court. 347 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 3: Do you think that appellate courts might have a different viewpoint? 348 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 7: They might, You know, you always have to leave open 349 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 7: the possibility that a different panel of judges would reach 350 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 7: a different conclusion. But the point is that the evidence 351 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 7: here of a national security threat consists of a document 352 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 7: or documents, right, and so you don't have witnesses. Yeah, 353 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 7: I mean some other judges might look at these documents 354 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 7: and reach a different conclusion than Judge Lamberts did. But 355 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 7: the rule is the trial court's decision to issue an 356 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,479 Speaker 7: injunction if it's reasonable, right, if it's based on an 357 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 7: analysis of whether the government's stated reason for these stop 358 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 7: work orders passes muster. I don't think the courts of 359 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 7: appeal are going to overturn these preliminary injunctions. The cases 360 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 7: are preceding the proponents of these projects, primarily or Sted, 361 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 7: the Denmark firm. They're bounded determined to work with the 362 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 7: Trump administration to resolve whatever their questions are. The real 363 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 7: question is with the signals coming from these wind turbines 364 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 7: to the grid, would they interfere with military radar readings. 365 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 7: That's what it comes down to. And you know, the 366 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 7: companies are saying, hey, look, if if you need more 367 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 7: safeguards and more mitigation of whatever risks you think there are, 368 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 7: we're all about addressing that and fixing that. We have 369 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 7: decades of experience with building these systems, running these systems. 370 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 7: In every country in which they're operating, they have the 371 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 7: same set of radar and military needs and national security needs, 372 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 7: and if there are issues out there, they can be 373 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 7: dealt with. 374 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 3: Pat Despite the fact that the Trump administration is losing 375 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 3: in court, court battle after court battle over the wind farms, 376 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,959 Speaker 3: the shift in policy under Trump, I mean even the 377 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 3: so called One Big Beautiful Bill sped up the phase 378 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 3: out of federal tax credits for offshore wind projects. So 379 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 3: has the policy shift and this general assault on wind 380 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 3: power increase the risks of investing in it so that 381 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 3: it's unlikely that you'll have new projects. The ones that 382 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 3: are ongoing now they'll fight to keep, but new projects, 383 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,719 Speaker 3: I mean, I think the government's not even going to 384 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 3: approve new projects. 385 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 7: Yeah, yes, that is the bigger threat here that they're 386 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,479 Speaker 7: going to discourage investment. And when you think about it, 387 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 7: this is foreign investment. This isn't costing US companies or 388 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 7: US taxpayers and nickel to build these things. This is 389 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 7: free money that we're getting, and it's billions and billions 390 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 7: of dollars. And oh, by the way, if you think 391 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 7: about it, just simply delaying these five projects at two 392 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 7: million dollars a day, who do you think is ultimately 393 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 7: going to pay for that? The consumers of electricity. And 394 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 7: so there are studies out there saying an extended delay 395 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 7: like this could cost consumers billions of dollars because of 396 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 7: the amount of electricity that these would generate. So the 397 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 7: chilling effect on investment is the goal of this administration. 398 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 7: I mean, they don't really care if they lose in court. 399 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 7: They'll just keep appealing if they can, all the way 400 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 7: to the Supreme Court if they can. But their real 401 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 7: goal is to stifle renewable energy and particularly win and 402 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 7: I hate to say it, but they're succeeding in that. 403 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 7: You know, that's not in the national interest, if not 404 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 7: in the national security interest, to cripple a major source 405 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 7: of electricity at a time when we're seeing escalating demands 406 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 7: for it, How does that make any sense at all? 407 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 3: Well, that's a question I certainly can't answer, but thanks 408 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 3: so much Pad for all your answers today. That's Professor 409 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 3: Pat Parento of the Vermont Law and Graduate School coming 410 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 3: up next on the Bloomberg Law Show. Yes, Dominions will 411 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 3: be taking the eyes at the Winter Olympics after a 412 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 3: music licensing saga is resolved, and how the Olympic Committee 413 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 3: is aggressively targeting the unauthorized commercial use of its trademarks. 414 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 3: And it's not just the bic rings and the torch, 415 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 3: it's also phrases like let the Games begin, I'm June 416 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 3: Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. It was in doubt 417 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 3: for a while, but it now appears that those mischievous 418 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 3: Minions will be taking the ice at the Winter Olympics. 419 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 3: After all, the cheeky characters have been causing a musical 420 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 3: nightmare for Spanish figure skater Tomasquarino Saubat. He's been using 421 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 3: a medley from the Minions films while dressed in their 422 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 3: iconic blue overalls and yellow T shirt in its performances 423 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 3: all season, believing he'd gone through the proper protocols to 424 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 3: use the music, but then last week NBC Universal told 425 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 3: him he didn't have permission to use the music, and 426 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 3: Guarino thought he'd have to scrap his whole routine. But 427 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 3: there was an outpouring of support for the skater on 428 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 3: social media, with people posting hashtag let the Minions skate 429 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 3: and Universal Studios had a change of heart. Joining me 430 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 3: is intellectual property litigator Terrence Ross, a partner at Katon 431 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 3: Muchen Rosaman Jerry. Some people were calling this Minions Gate, 432 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 3: and I just don't understand why Universal didn't give him 433 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 3: permission in the first place. It seems like having the 434 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 3: Minions represented at the Olympics would be a plus for 435 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 3: the franchise and the studio. 436 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: Yes, I agree with that completely. Apparently he had flown 437 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: under the radar of the copyright folks at Universal for 438 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: most of the season, but now that he's in the Olympics, 439 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: and I guess NBC has got the coverage rights to 440 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: the Olympics and they're owned by Universal. 441 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 8: Probably somebody in the sports. 442 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 1: Broadcasting called it to the attention and Universal, this guy's 443 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: using the Minions music. 444 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 8: Did you approve it, and Universal had not. 445 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: The Spanish skater had never obtained advance approval. The music 446 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 1: is copyrighted, as was the film, as all music is copyrighted. 447 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: And a friend of mine said, well, yeah, but it's 448 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: the Olympics aren't taking place in the United States. They're 449 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: taking place in Italy, and I says, come on, guys, 450 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: in the modern world, we have international treaties where almost 451 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 1: all the countries sign up to and allow enforcement of 452 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,479 Speaker 1: their copyrights in other countries through the simplicity of filing 453 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: a couple pieces of paper with an international organization. So 454 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: that's not going to excuse this guy. 455 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 8: And at some. 456 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: Point during the last week or so it seemed like 457 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: he was really not going to be able to perform 458 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: his music. 459 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 3: Well, this got a lot of attention, a lot of 460 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 3: negative attention, I think for NBC Universal, and there was 461 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 3: a lot of sympathy on social media for the ice skater. 462 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 3: So perhaps Universal saw which way the wind was blowing 463 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 3: and did a turnaround, allowing him to use the music 464 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 3: after all. 465 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: Ultimately, that's what the Spanish skater said. He thanked Universal 466 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: for letting him do it. He thanked all his fans 467 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 1: for calling out the problem and getting Universal. 468 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 8: Pay attention to it. 469 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: You know, it just comes back to the point he 470 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: made at the beginning, Why would you not want your 471 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: music being used in a setting like that and getting 472 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: all the international exposure. I guess Universal was taking the 473 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: position that Minions and the various Minions movies are so 474 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 1: well known that they don't need any more exposure from 475 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: some ice skater in Spain. 476 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 8: And what happens if he falls down journey to music? 477 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: You know, I couldn't see that kind of conversation going 478 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: on within the Universal legal department, and so they sent 479 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: out a cease and desist letter and thankfully sanity prevailed 480 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: and he's been authorized to use it. I was dying 481 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: to see if he got some sort of written license agreement, 482 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: but that hasn't shown up at the press. 483 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 8: But yeah, he gets to use it now. 484 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 9: And you know, it's funny because if you're making a movie, 485 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 9: if you're making a television show, there's literally a person 486 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 9: who gets credit on the screen who's called the music supervisor, 487 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 9: and they're not the people who make the music or 488 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 9: write the score. 489 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: Music supervisor references the person who's responsible for getting all 490 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: the licenses for the music, and so it's literally a 491 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: job in the movies and television, but apparently in ice 492 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: dancing they haven't gotten that for yet. 493 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 3: Skaters used to use classical music that's in the public 494 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 3: domain and didn't need clearance, but then in twenty fourteen, 495 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 3: the International Skating Union relaxed its rules to allow contemporary 496 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 3: music with lyrics. But when you use contemporary music that's 497 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 3: not in the public domain, you need to get permission. 498 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 3: And as you said, it's so complicated because one piece 499 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 3: of music can involve getting how many authorizations. 500 00:28:58,720 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 8: You know, I feel sorry for them. 501 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: We've had this discussion before in the context of documentaries, 502 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: where a documentary filmmaker wants to use a short piece 503 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: of music, they just want to be cautious. Arguably they 504 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: could claim fair use, but they want to be cautious, 505 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: so they ask for advance approval. And you know, filmmakers 506 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: are typically not lawyers, just as ice skaters typically aren't lawyers, 507 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: and the bureaucratic process of trying to get it is 508 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: very challenging. And then there's the problem at the other end. 509 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: You jump through all the hoops, you ask for permission, 510 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: and they go, what you're not paying us for this? 511 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: And then they try to collect, you know, a couple 512 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: bucks out of you, and it's a challenging process. And 513 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: I feel sorry for these ice skaters to put a 514 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: beautiful performances quite frankly, that they're not lawyers and they've 515 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: got the Olympic Committee or somebody should figure out a 516 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: way to get these guys some help. 517 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 3: Well, apparently they've been trying but not succeeding. Sabate, for example, 518 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 3: said he followed the prescribed procedure forgetting his music approved 519 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 3: through a system called click clear in August. So obviously 520 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 3: there's a lot more or work to be done there. Jerry, 521 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 3: let's turn out to the Olympics and the way the 522 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 3: Olympic Committee guards its trademarks so aggressively and they have 523 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 3: a lot to guard. Tell us about the sort of 524 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 3: IP regime that's special to the Olympics. 525 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 8: Well, it's a great legal question. 526 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: And every couple years when we either had the Winter 527 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: Olympics or Summer Olympics, the Olympic Committee literally sends out 528 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: notices about six months ahead of time warning people, and 529 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: they post things on their website and they are very 530 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: aggressive in enforcing their intellectual property rights. But it's a 531 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: completely different regime than what we usually talk about June. 532 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: It's not under the Landham Act, which is the name 533 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: of the United States Trademark Lass. A number of years ago, 534 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: Congress passed a law entitled the Ted Stevens Olympic and 535 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: Amateur Sports Act, and it. 536 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 8: Is very unique. 537 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: It's thirty six US Code Section twenty two oh five 538 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: oh six, and what it does is set up a 539 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: special intellectual property rights regime for the United States Olympic Committee. 540 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: And it says that the five rings, you know, the 541 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: international symbol of the Olympics, the five rings also the 542 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: Pan American sports symbol, which I'm less familiar with. The 543 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: words Olympic, OLYMPIAD, Paralympic, PARALYMPIAD, pan American, parapan American, all 544 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: those words are all exclusively within the use of the 545 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: United States Olympic Committee. 546 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 8: I mean, has nothing to do with the trademark laws. 547 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: The Congress has simply taken this group of words and 548 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: symbols and given them to the United States Olympic Committee. 549 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: Incredibly unusual. It's the only ball like that I know 550 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: of in the United States. 551 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 3: I was looking at the guidelines that they have on 552 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 3: a website entitled Commercial and brand usage guidelines, and I 553 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 3: found some of the trademarks really surprising. For example, they've 554 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 3: trademarked the phrase let the Games begin. I mean that 555 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 3: seems so generic. Let the Games begin is used in 556 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 3: a lot of different contexts, not just in the Olympic realm. 557 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. Now, there is one distinction within the law. 558 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: Specific words are set aside and you just can't use 559 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: them period. Now there's a couple exceptions to that. If 560 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: you're in that part of the state of Washington where 561 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: the town of Olympia is, and I guess there's a 562 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: set of mountains there, cascades mountains, and you do business there, 563 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,479 Speaker 1: you can use the word Olympic or Olympia, and you 564 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: can also use the word Olympics Olympia for a sportscaster 565 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: talking about the games in a non commercial context. So 566 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: that's one part of the regime. The other part of 567 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: the regime is there's this very broad provision that says, 568 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: i'll just read it here. Any trademark, trade name, sign, symbol, 569 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: or insignia falsely representing association with their authorization by the 570 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: International Olympics Committee also violates the law. Now that's the 571 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: a little bit different from using the word Olympics or 572 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: pan Olympics or para Olympics in those cases like you 573 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: gave the example, let the Games begin, that's not one 574 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: of the words exclusively consigned to the Olympic Committee. But 575 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: they can still come after you under this other provision 576 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: in that it suggests an association with the Olympics that 577 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: is not true. 578 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 8: It's harder to prove. 579 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 3: That, though, Terry, I've been reading about what the Olympic 580 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 3: Committee characterized as ambush marketing. There were Subway commercials that 581 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 3: showed Michael Phelps swimming across an animated map toward Canada 582 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 3: during the Vancouver Games and the voiceover said where the 583 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 3: action is this winter. The Olympic Committee said it was 584 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 3: an attempt to falsely associate Subway with the Olympics as 585 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 3: a sponsor. 586 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 8: In the Rio Games. 587 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: There were a lot of billboard advertising that did the 588 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: same sort of thing, and the Olympic Committee went crazy 589 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: over that. There was a case in the Supreme Court 590 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: that conceals at this statute number of years ago, and 591 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 1: the statute was challenged as being the violation of the 592 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: First Amendment and being unconstitutional, and the Supreme Court said no, 593 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: it's not as long as it has to do with 594 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: commercial use. And you know, Michael Phelps doing a subway 595 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: commercial would be a commercial use. They have an absolute 596 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: right to these words. And the Supreme Court, you know, 597 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: looked at the legislative history and said, look, the whole 598 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: reason we have this law is so that sponsors will 599 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: pay money to the Olympic Committee to use these marks, 600 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: and that will pay for our athletes to compete in 601 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: a competitive manner abroad. And when other companies undercut that, 602 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: you're really undercutting the United States Olympic effort. 603 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:43,959 Speaker 8: Supreme Court came right out and. 604 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 1: Said that that particular suggestion let the games begins would 605 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: have to be tested under some sort of confusion standard. Now, 606 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, in the same case called San Francisco 607 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: Arts and Athletics versus the US Olympic Committee, the Supreme 608 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: Court said, you've got to look at the statute broadly, 609 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: because Congress has had a broad protection and oh, by 610 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: the way, we don't apply the traditional Lanham Act evaluation standard, 611 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 1: which is likelihood of confusion. Now you sometimes see that 612 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: still being argued, but I don't know how else do 613 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: you evaluate. That's a great example you gave and that 614 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: would be very challenging. The Olympic Committee would probably go 615 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 1: after somebody for that, but I think they might have 616 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: trouble convincing a judge depending on the usage. 617 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 3: So one of my favorite parts of the commercial use 618 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 3: guidelines was please do not create your own version of 619 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 3: any USOPC trademarks. For example, the Olympic symbol should not 620 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,879 Speaker 3: be simulated using pizzas, onion rings, tires, beverages, basketball, snowflakes, 621 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 3: triangle smiley faces, fruits and vegetables, et cetera. I had 622 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 3: to laugh that they actually put all that in their 623 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,280 Speaker 3: commercial guidelines on the website. 624 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,760 Speaker 1: It's just testament to the ingenuity of the American populists 625 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: and their ability to circumvent the US laws. 626 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 8: Arguably, the Olympic Committee is correct there. 627 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: Because they have an absolute right to that five rings 628 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:14,240 Speaker 1: symbol and it's not constrained in any way by likelihood, confusion, 629 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: or anything else if it's being used in some sort 630 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: of commercial A couple of years ago, there as a 631 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 1: guide in Minnesota who started using hashtag and then various 632 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: Olympic marks and claimed that the hashtag wasn't in the statute. 633 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 8: You know that the. 634 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: Statute it protects Olympics, it protects Olympiad. It doesn't protect 635 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: hashtag Olympic, which I thought was very creative. Americans are 636 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: just very ingenious when it comes to getting around laws. 637 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 3: I'm so sure he got a cease and desist letter. 638 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Terry. That's intellectual property litigator Terrence Ross. 639 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,479 Speaker 3: And that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. 640 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 3: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on 641 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 3: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 642 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 3: and at www dot bloomberg dot com slash podcast Slash Law, 643 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,720 Speaker 3: And remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every 644 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 3: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso 645 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 3: and you're listening to Bloomberg