Speaker 1: Welcome to the stuff of life. I'm your host, Julie Douglas,
Speaker 1: who hasn't at one time or another wanted to duck out,
Speaker 1: flip through a portal, or just drift off for a while,
Speaker 1: especially in a world that delivers new atrocities each day,
Speaker 1: not to mention the personal battles we wage with ourselves
Speaker 1: every time we blink open our eyes into consciousness. Maybe
Speaker 1: you've experienced that feeling that you're stuck in the storyline
Speaker 1: you've created for yourself. So if you could escape, unravel
Speaker 1: the tethers that bind you to the anxieties and concerns
Speaker 1: that plague day to day existence. Would you shape shift
Speaker 1: into another species, becoming a different animal it's this kind
Speaker 1: of slightly childish dream. Or would you fully embrace your
Speaker 1: human existence warts and all, allowing yourself to just our
Speaker 1: minds are not as claustrophobic and screwed up as we
Speaker 1: tend to think when we start um. I mean we
Speaker 1: we certainly may have plenty of issues to work on,
Speaker 1: but there's a larger picture. Or maybe you'd just like
Speaker 1: to escape by laughing your ass off. In this episode,
Speaker 1: we explore how we manage the thorny business of life.
Speaker 1: Some of us look to mindfulness and embrace our thoughts good, bad, ugly,
Speaker 1: as does Chris Winger of Shambala Meditation Center of Atlanta.
Speaker 1: Some of us fine peace and raucous peals of laughter,
Speaker 1: like Lorie Sugarman and Debbie Ellis, and some of us
Speaker 1: turned to the animal world. The feel of the project
Speaker 1: was about trying to kind of achieved sort of freedom,
Speaker 1: just like to escape and kind of gallop, you know,
Speaker 1: across across the kind of green Alps and just sort of,
Speaker 1: you know, escape kind of accumulation of like work and
Speaker 1: kind of relationships and family just kind of seemed to
Speaker 1: gang up. And He's like, oh God, and sod it.
Speaker 1: So let's become an animal. It's just escape, escape this
Speaker 1: and become a goat. That's designer and author of Goatman.
Speaker 1: How I took a holiday from being human Thomas Thwaite's
Speaker 1: He once built a toaster from scratch and documented it
Speaker 1: kind of to my dismay. Discovered the inside this object,
Speaker 1: which I bought for just kind of three pounds, like
Speaker 1: less than ten bucks. There were kind of four hundreds
Speaker 1: different bits making up this thing. If you really go
Speaker 1: down and take everything apart subcomponents, sub subcomponents, and at
Speaker 1: that time, I hadn't yet realized that I was going
Speaker 1: to spend the rest of my life making a toaster.
Speaker 1: Coming off his toaster project, he found that he was
Speaker 1: in a slump. He had woven a story around himself
Speaker 1: and he couldn't figure out how to get out of it.
Speaker 1: That is, until he looked into the eyes of a
Speaker 1: dog he was pet sitting and found his next portal
Speaker 1: to walk through dogs just so kind of happy and
Speaker 1: it's content and you know, just sort of interested in
Speaker 1: the world. And yeah, and I, you know, looking looking
Speaker 1: at this much, I just sort of thought, yeah, it's um,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not a bad life. For dog's life.
Speaker 1: It's this sort of thought that I think you have
Speaker 1: when you're a child. I can remember thinking when I was,
Speaker 1: you know, a child and being you know, having to
Speaker 1: go off to school and you know, in the cold,
Speaker 1: and looking at our sort of family cat just sort
Speaker 1: of reclining on the sofa and just thinking, oh God,
Speaker 1: I'm saying, Janus, I was being a cat. I can't
Speaker 1: remember how old I was, really, but for some reason,
Speaker 1: I just decided to like each part of this house
Speaker 1: plant without using my hands, and it was kind of
Speaker 1: a big, kind of bushy house plant, and it was
Speaker 1: kind of like a very interesting experience. It's just sort
Speaker 1: of tugging at the kind of the funds of the
Speaker 1: like leaves and sort of just cheering them up like
Speaker 1: a sort of cow or indeed goat or anything. I guess. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that sort of early childhood's dream kind of came back
Speaker 1: and hit me in my of adult life, and rather
Speaker 1: than just kind of dismissing it, I actually started to think, actually,
Speaker 1: that's kind of interesting. You know, if your courds sort
Speaker 1: of become a different animal from while these sort of experience,
Speaker 1: what it might be like. Initially, when Thomas applied for
Speaker 1: a grant from the Welcome Trust to fund his human
Speaker 1: to Animal project, his proposal was for him to become
Speaker 1: an elephant, but there were serious logistical problems. First, he'd
Speaker 1: have to bring in an external power source to move
Speaker 1: about in an enormous exoskeleton. And second, elephants are socially
Speaker 1: similar to humans, and being human was what Thomas yearned
Speaker 1: to take a holiday from. I ended up going to
Speaker 1: see a shaman to ask what animal I should you know,
Speaker 1: try and become um? And yeah, and the Shaman told
Speaker 1: me that I should you know, I was an idiot.
Speaker 1: Of course I was an idiot for considering that to
Speaker 1: become the eliphon um, and of course I should be
Speaker 1: trying to become a goat um. So yeah, and I
Speaker 1: think she was right. Actually, I think that Shaman was
Speaker 1: very focused on this idea that you have to kind
Speaker 1: of know the animal and the only way and you know,
Speaker 1: part of knowing the animal was kind of knowing, you know,
Speaker 1: being familiar with the environment. So you're probably wondering how
Speaker 1: all this went down. Here are the basics. Thomas decided
Speaker 1: to make his way to the Swiss Alps after mating
Speaker 1: season for reasons I trust you can suss out for yourself,
Speaker 1: which meant he to have a short window between fall
Speaker 1: and winter to arrange his transformation into a goat. He's
Speaker 1: set to work on goat body prototypes, eventually scrapping those
Speaker 1: and replacing them with prosthetics for his hands and feet,
Speaker 1: which lengthened his arms and legs, pitching six of his
Speaker 1: body forward, just as a goats would, except in this
Speaker 1: case it looked as though he was wearing wedge shoes.
Speaker 1: In his book, he describes the look as quote, a
Speaker 1: cross dresser at the back and post World War two
Speaker 1: amputee patient in the front. His mom made him a
Speaker 1: waterproof jacket and he finished the ensemble with a chess
Speaker 1: protector and a helmet, just in case any goats decided
Speaker 1: to head butt them. It was okay when I was
Speaker 1: like testing it out, just kind of clumping around my
Speaker 1: flat in London, you know, But it's a whole different
Speaker 1: kettle of fish when you're pitched forwards, heading head first
Speaker 1: down a mountain um kind of accompanied by like a
Speaker 1: herd of like fifty sort of excited goats. What this
Speaker 1: project about becoming an animal is really getting at is
Speaker 1: this desire to experience the world from something else's perspective,
Speaker 1: because we're all completely trapped inside our own brain and
Speaker 1: our own perception of the world. And so what I'm
Speaker 1: trying to do is to try and kind of get
Speaker 1: outside of myself and try and experience the world from
Speaker 1: a completely different perspective. I'm doing five million years of
Speaker 1: human evolution to assume the anatomy of a quadrupede was
Speaker 1: more than a little painful, not to mention terrifying, while
Speaker 1: trying to navigate slippery rocks there's just now you're getting
Speaker 1: around the fact that goats have evolved to springing across
Speaker 1: rocky mountain side and humans have evolved to kind of
Speaker 1: carry shopping bags. So if you think no big deal,
Speaker 1: I could do that, consider that Thomas also committed to
Speaker 1: eating like a goat, so lots and lots of grass.
Speaker 1: But how to break down all that cellulose without his
Speaker 1: own handy room in which is a kind of second
Speaker 1: stomach that goats use. First he looked into a fecal
Speaker 1: transplant from a goat, essentially infusing his gut bacteria with
Speaker 1: goat feces to promote similar digestion, but he quickly realized
Speaker 1: that prospect was rife with unknowns. Then he explored the
Speaker 1: idea of breaking down the plant material by mixing it
Speaker 1: with industrial grade purified cellulose enzyme, But the company that
Speaker 1: initially supplied him with a small quantity got wind of
Speaker 1: his intentions and shut off his supply, urging him to
Speaker 1: immediately dispose of it. So he settled on chewing up
Speaker 1: the grass, spitting it into an external pouch, and then
Speaker 1: breaking it down in a pressure cooker, adding an acid
Speaker 1: hydrolysis to create a leafy stew. You're definitely like in
Speaker 1: nature when you're kind of eating grass, like, you know,
Speaker 1: just going down and paring a big clump of JC
Speaker 1: fresh sweet green grass with your teeth and chewing it up.
Speaker 1: It's a nice experience. Yeah, I'd recommend it, Oh when
Speaker 1: I should all so tell you that Thomas didn't neglect
Speaker 1: the mental aspects of becoming a goat. In fact, he
Speaker 1: sought out something called transcranial magnetic stimulation of his frontal lobes.
Speaker 1: I thought, could I use this technique to induce lesions
Speaker 1: in the parts of my brain that kind of made
Speaker 1: me different from a goat? And so I emailed James
Speaker 1: Devline at University College London. He uses TMS in his research,
Speaker 1: and yeah asked him, could you make me feel more
Speaker 1: like a goat? He said, well, you know, he said no,
Speaker 1: but I could. You can come in and we can
Speaker 1: sort of at least try and switch off your ability
Speaker 1: to vocalize using TMS. And so that's what we did.
Speaker 1: And while Thomas wasn't able to replicate this particular mental state,
Speaker 1: he was able to dip into it without the aid
Speaker 1: of super strong magnets. I kind of was very much
Speaker 1: just kind of in the moment, But then there were
Speaker 1: times when I just couldn't help my human sense of shame,
Speaker 1: maybe shaven embarrassment, kind of coming to the four or
Speaker 1: like you know, the times when okay, it's sort of
Speaker 1: the end of the day or something, and you're tired
Speaker 1: and starting to rain and start getting a little bit cold,
Speaker 1: and suddenly you know, it just doesn't seem that fun anymore,
Speaker 1: and you know that there's a place, you know, the
Speaker 1: place with like a nice hot fire and all that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. So how close did Thomas get to
Speaker 1: becoming a goat? Probably kind of later than you might expect,
Speaker 1: realized that becoming a goat is actually impossible, um at
Speaker 1: the moment at least, But I think I've got close,
Speaker 1: maybe as close as anyone has ever got. Um. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, there could be In fact, I'm
Speaker 1: sure there's somebody out there maybe lives in the wild
Speaker 1: with the goats all the time. But yeah, I think
Speaker 1: I I don't know, it's hard to say. How can
Speaker 1: you how can you put a sort of percentage on,
Speaker 1: you know, how close you've got to transforming into a gate.
Speaker 1: What Thomas did was extraordinary, But the impulse to do
Speaker 1: so is more ordinary than we think. It's actually an
Speaker 1: ancient human dream of ours. You don't have to look
Speaker 1: very far to kind of find that kind of repeated
Speaker 1: idea of taking on characteristics of animals. Um you know,
Speaker 1: through history. You know, you like all the hundreds of
Speaker 1: kind of Greek myths where there's you know, this kind
Speaker 1: of human animal kind of transformation, and you would find
Speaker 1: this kind of transformation taking place, and the sort of
Speaker 1: you know, the earliest kind of cave paintings, cave art,
Speaker 1: you know, half human, half kind of beef. It's no
Speaker 1: surprise that we humans read a sense of liberation into animals.
Speaker 1: After all, they can do things we can't, like gallop
Speaker 1: over the alps, or, in the case of the Tibetan
Speaker 1: wind horse, gallop into the infinite. In the Buddhist teaching,
Speaker 1: windhorse is the fundamental energy of basic goodness, a kind
Speaker 1: of reality available to everyone. We're not talking goody two
Speaker 1: shoe or Pollyannic goodness here, but a strength and integrity
Speaker 1: found in many forms, from a walk in nature to
Speaker 1: a genuine conversation with someone. Nobody possesses a nobody controls that.
Speaker 1: It's very dynamic, but it's Uh, it's available to help
Speaker 1: us with our lives. Uh, and so there are various
Speaker 1: ways we tap into it. I'm Chris Singer, and i
Speaker 1: am director of Practice and Education for the Shinbala Center
Speaker 1: of Atlanta. It seems to me when people come in
Speaker 1: the door a lot of times, what's maybe top of
Speaker 1: mind is a couple of questions. One would be what
Speaker 1: does meditation have to offer me? And number two, percolating
Speaker 1: beneath that, which people may or may not be aware of,
Speaker 1: is why do I do with my fear? What do
Speaker 1: I do with my pain? What do I do with
Speaker 1: my loneliness? Um? Depending what they're going through, that may
Speaker 1: be quite an urgent question for them at that time.
Speaker 1: Shambala's aim isn't to create a utopia, nor do they
Speaker 1: have a political agenda. Rather, it's about something more basic
Speaker 1: and integral to our existence. We're we're of Adriana Buddhist
Speaker 1: community that is offering the wisdom I guess of ancient
Speaker 1: lineages in a way that is meant to benefit larger society.
Speaker 1: And we grow out of two particular lineages of Tibetan Buddhism,
Speaker 1: the Kagyu and the Nyingma, which is what chogm Trupam Bache,
Speaker 1: who is the founder of Shambala International, trained in as
Speaker 1: a young uh Tolco and Tibet. There's a sort of
Speaker 1: fundamental wisdom that humans have already. Um, obviously we we uh,
Speaker 1: we missed that. A lot we get out of touch,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of injustice in the world, a
Speaker 1: lot of horrible things that happened. But still there is
Speaker 1: a lot of wisdom at the root of our human
Speaker 1: nature and of human society. If there weren't, we probably
Speaker 1: wouldn't even be in a room together able to talk
Speaker 1: to each other. Connecting with that fundamental wisdom means that
Speaker 1: you have to be willing to sit with yourself, to
Speaker 1: be alone with your thoughts. And for anyone who's ever
Speaker 1: sat down to meditate for more than thirty seconds, well
Speaker 1: you know how hard it can be, especially when you're
Speaker 1: after the holy grail of mindfulness, waiting for nothingness or
Speaker 1: maybe even enlightenment to wash over you. It's really tempted,
Speaker 1: ng Um to try and approach meditation as a way
Speaker 1: of kind of creating a certain level of consciousness or
Speaker 1: tapping into it or whatever. Um. Honestly, my experience is
Speaker 1: probably just best not to let that go. Uh, just
Speaker 1: not even worry about that, because otherwise what you're doing
Speaker 1: is you're kind of grasping at your experience or grasping
Speaker 1: at some aspect of your experience, and h this style
Speaker 1: of meditation, which is called shamata peaceful abiding is basically
Speaker 1: opening to whatever is arising, and peaceful abiding people hear
Speaker 1: that and they think, oh, okay, well I'm gonna create
Speaker 1: a peaceful state. And actually, I think what's more pertinent
Speaker 1: for people is the peace has to do with not struggling,
Speaker 1: not going to war with yourself whatever comes up, so
Speaker 1: that when you realize that your tents, you acknowledge that
Speaker 1: very honestly, um, and you hold that and there's some
Speaker 1: curiosity about it without exactly trying to figure it out,
Speaker 1: just sort of an open intelligence that's directed towards it,
Speaker 1: and some warmth particularly you know it's probably going to
Speaker 1: be uncomfortable, and just some kind of genuine warmth towards
Speaker 1: that sense of uncomfortable tension. And just holding that without
Speaker 1: trying to diagnose, get rid of, solve, or find some
Speaker 1: other sort of thing, and asking ourselves not to solve something,
Speaker 1: to just let it be is a mentally herculean task.
Speaker 1: We like to fix whatever it is and move on.
Speaker 1: But even the idea that we could do that is
Speaker 1: an illusion, a story we tell ourselves in the moment
Speaker 1: to make ourselves feel better. Really nothing is ever solved,
Speaker 1: because this meditation is about not kind of creating a
Speaker 1: special place or a special level of consciousness, but it's
Speaker 1: sort of like how can we inhabit our life more fully,
Speaker 1: more sanely. And of course we all have challenges, you know,
Speaker 1: we come from different sorts of backgrounds and sets of conditions,
Speaker 1: and within that we can make a relationship with whatever
Speaker 1: all that stuff is rather than fighting against it, rather
Speaker 1: than denying it. We can make a relationship with our tension,
Speaker 1: our anxiety, our loneliness, our fear. That's really pretty much
Speaker 1: where actually all of us have to start. And um,
Speaker 1: we can make a relationship with that of friendliness and
Speaker 1: openness and curiosity. And that does take a lot of
Speaker 1: courage to be willing to do that, because we would
Speaker 1: like to think that that's all going to just disappear. Uh.
Speaker 1: And while meditation and does definitely have some benefits, those
Speaker 1: benefits really come from being willing to kind of relax
Speaker 1: with those things, be with those things without fighting against
Speaker 1: him without because that's what really piles on the suffering,
Speaker 1: is when we're struggling against things like that. Constantly sitting
Speaker 1: down and letting your thoughts come and go without judgment
Speaker 1: takes courage and trust at bottom, is because we really
Speaker 1: don't trust ourselves. And that's one thing Trumper Impochet said
Speaker 1: to his students again and again is trust yourself. You
Speaker 1: know you can trust yourself. You actually have a lot
Speaker 1: of wisdom, you have a lot of goodness, a lot
Speaker 1: of warmth. You know you can trust yourself. And of
Speaker 1: course you know where people will make mistakes. We may
Speaker 1: make horrible mistakes, but um, but the we cannot really
Speaker 1: fundamentally damage uh the sort of ground, the basic goodness
Speaker 1: of our being that that's always there, always available to us,
Speaker 1: always uh um, waiting for us so to speak to,
Speaker 1: to connect with. But in opening up the space to
Speaker 1: do that, we're also opening up to space to see
Speaker 1: the play of our habitual patterns, some of which have
Speaker 1: tormented us for a very long time. Chris also points
Speaker 1: out another teaching one about the confusion that can arise
Speaker 1: when you sit with your thoughts. Now, no one enjoys
Speaker 1: confusion because you're grappling with uncertainty and the unknown. But
Speaker 1: as Chris says, it's a condition for wisdom. Confusion is
Speaker 1: useful for bracketing off a space for insight into what's
Speaker 1: at the bottom of your anxiety and fear. The three
Speaker 1: qualities that are really important to carry when you meditate
Speaker 1: or in your life altogether, our gentleness, curiosity, and bravery.
Speaker 1: That's what really makes it all possible to move forward.
Speaker 1: And it's really quite a powerful process. It's it's not
Speaker 1: the sort of thing that's going to sort of solve
Speaker 1: all your problems in the next couple of weeks, or
Speaker 1: you'll still have plenty of ups and downs, but there's
Speaker 1: this sense that life really is not only worth living,
Speaker 1: but just remarkably rich and remarkably wonderful, which brings us
Speaker 1: back to the windhorse idea that we could enter the
Speaker 1: vastness beyond the fog of our own thoughts. And the
Speaker 1: traditional image and in Buddhist teaching is that in fact,
Speaker 1: our our minds, our beings are like the sky, and
Speaker 1: what's going on is the weather, is the storms, and
Speaker 1: all of that. We tend to be very fixated on
Speaker 1: that all of that stuff and we forget that actually
Speaker 1: there is this vastness, this vast quality to our being,
Speaker 1: which is open and fathomless. But when we sort of
Speaker 1: relax into it, there's a sense of tremendous expansion and
Speaker 1: wealth and relaxation that is available for some people entering
Speaker 1: that vastness takes another route to that end. Debbie Ellis
Speaker 1: and Lori Sugarman host the Southern Fried Laughter Conference in Atlanta, Georgia.
Speaker 1: There's laughter yoga, storytelling workshops, dancing, and sometimes kazoos make
Speaker 1: an appearance. I think we we're actually laughter yoga leaders. UM.
Speaker 1: Laughter yoga started dor and Hindia dr Modern Qataria Um
Speaker 1: when he saw the benefits of laughter, so he decided
Speaker 1: to start this this this movement he and it's spread
Speaker 1: all over the world. Um. It's now in like sixty
Speaker 1: countries and uh sixty people are doing it around the world.
Speaker 1: It's just been amazing. And it starts on the premise
Speaker 1: that if you don't feel like laughing initially, you just
Speaker 1: go ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, because your
Speaker 1: brain doesn't know whether you're faking it or whether it's genuine.
Speaker 1: And of course when you're with other people, we all
Speaker 1: know how contagious lefter laughter is. To be clear, this
Speaker 1: is not a jokey conference. We do silly exercises um
Speaker 1: to make people laugh. We don't use humor. We don't
Speaker 1: talk jokes or anything like that's not based on humor
Speaker 1: at all, because humor comes from your brain. And we're
Speaker 1: trying to teach people to be childlike and play front
Speaker 1: with their bodies from their bodies, and so we do
Speaker 1: silly exercises like, uh, would you like to see a demonstration? Okay,
Speaker 1: so we pretending like we're making milkshake, and then we
Speaker 1: pretend like we're drinking it. We laughed, so it looks
Speaker 1: like this. So we do lots of the theories of
Speaker 1: silly acts. For Debbie, laughter yoga came to her in
Speaker 1: an unexpected way. Yeah, Debbie had a lifelong desire to laugh.
Speaker 1: She came out of the womb laughing. No, I didn't.
Speaker 1: I was working with a piece of human rights organization.
Speaker 1: We were working with inmates, and we decided to take
Speaker 1: the training. One day, the director called me and said,
Speaker 1: we're gonna take the laughter yoga training because we're gonna
Speaker 1: take laughter into the prisons. And that's why I started
Speaker 1: doing it and now I I just love it so much.
Speaker 1: Is like my life's passing, helping spread joy in the world.
Speaker 1: You may not think of laughter as explicitly therapeutic, but
Speaker 1: consider what's happening at the physiological level. First, your brain
Speaker 1: hears or see something funny, accused muscle function and emotion.
Speaker 1: Then the body deals with the dual tasks of laughing
Speaker 1: and breathing at the same time, and your heart pumps
Speaker 1: faster to replace the oxygen that your mouth expels. And
Speaker 1: though your face and stomach muscles engage, the rest of
Speaker 1: your muscles weakened taking a break while the energy hog
Speaker 1: of laughter siphons off the body's resources, the stress hormone
Speaker 1: cortisol takes a brief holiday, and at the same time
Speaker 1: endorphins release. In other words, a hearty laugh can take
Speaker 1: you to a brief yet altered state in seventy five
Speaker 1: milliseconds or less, and you move into a state where
Speaker 1: you're just laughing hysterically. Um. You know, there's just nothing
Speaker 1: like it. Um. Because of this sense of joyfulness and
Speaker 1: to me, spirituality, whether you call your spirit God, whether
Speaker 1: you call it the divine, whether you call it higher energy,
Speaker 1: whatever you you call that, that force or that field
Speaker 1: that's bigger and outside of us. UM. Whenever you feel
Speaker 1: this sense of incredible joyfulness and and happiness, UM, no
Speaker 1: matter who you directed to, who are what you directed to,
Speaker 1: whether it's in prayer, whether it's in meditation, whether it's
Speaker 1: laughing with someone and you're connecting as from human to human.
Speaker 1: I think that, Um. You know that's incredibly spiritual. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's like being in an enlightened state. It's an enlightened state,
Speaker 1: like a higher consciousness, because it takes you to the joy,
Speaker 1: the joy rapture. If humans were paintings from far away,
Speaker 1: you might perceive a cohesive, finished image, but if you
Speaker 1: could see under the layers of paint, your eyes would
Speaker 1: trace the wrecked early sketches beneath the erasial lines, the
Speaker 1: day the entire image was blotted out and black paint,
Speaker 1: and the day the painting was started anew That we
Speaker 1: are works in progress is given, but that we could
Speaker 1: ever appear as something completely finished and perfected is pure illusion.
Speaker 1: So maybe it's not so much escape that we yearned for,
Speaker 1: but to tap into the untamed and boundless, those early
Speaker 1: sketches of ourselves that exist outside of time, To be
Speaker 1: a goat a breath on the wind, I'll laugh. Released
Speaker 1: into the wild, to be more than the pain and
Speaker 1: suffering we endure, more than the war we wage against
Speaker 1: each other, more than the loops of thought that run
Speaker 1: over and over again in our minds. The Stuff of
Speaker 1: Life is written an executive produced by me Julie Douglas
Speaker 1: and co produced by Noel Brown. Original music is by
Speaker 1: Noel Brown. This episode also featured music by Tristan McNeil,
Speaker 1: Aaron Grubbs, Eric Rinker, and Dylan Fagan, and editorial oversight
Speaker 1: is provided by contributing producer Dylan Fagan at Head of Production,
Speaker 1: Jerry Rowland. Find The Stuff of Life on Facebook and
Speaker 1: Twitter and email us at the Stuff of Life at
Speaker 1: how staffords dot com. With the like to hear your
Speaker 1: thoughts and stories and you can share them with us
Speaker 1: by calling one eight four four h s W Stuff
Speaker 1: M