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Speaker 1: They believe that spirits when they die, should be buried

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Speaker 1: facing the east because when the sun comes up and

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Speaker 1: the milky way comes out in the morning, just before

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Speaker 1: the sun is full, the spirit needs that milky way

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Speaker 1: to walk across to the spirit world where he's going

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Speaker 1: to live. And if they don't bury him properly, And

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Speaker 1: this is why they want Oziola's head, because he's buried

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Speaker 1: in pieces and he can't rest until he's back together.

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Speaker 1: And the critical thing about that story, and I'm going

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Speaker 1: to tell you now and I'll tell you again later on,

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Speaker 1: is that the only people who have the right to

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Speaker 1: make disposition of his head, if and when it is

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Speaker 1: ever found, and I have worked hard looking for it,

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Speaker 1: are the Seminole people in Florida, the only ones.

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Speaker 2: In the history books. When a person dies and is buried,

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Speaker 2: aside from the rippling impacts of their life on society,

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Speaker 2: their story usually fades to an end. Their physical and

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Speaker 2: material impact evaporate at death. That is, unless you're a Ostiola.

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Speaker 2: The story continues the life of this war leader, the

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Speaker 2: mastermind of the Seminole resistance to his tribes. Remove a

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Speaker 2: lot of Florida stretches one hundred and twenty nine years

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Speaker 2: post burial, when they decide to dig up his body

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Speaker 2: in search of some unanswered questions, which really only give

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Speaker 2: us more questions. My friends, mystery remains, and the truth

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Speaker 2: is sometimes more wild than the myth. I really doubt

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Speaker 2: that you're gonna want to miss this last episode on

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Speaker 2: Ostiola on Thanksgiving Week, and as a bonus at the end,

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk with the Florida Seminole about their

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Speaker 2: partnership with Florida State University. It's pretty unique. My name

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Speaker 2: is Klay Knukem, and this is the Bear Grease Podcast

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Speaker 2: where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight

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Speaker 2: and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story of

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Speaker 2: Americans who live their lives close to the land, presented

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Speaker 2: by FHF gear, American made purpose built hunting and fishing

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Speaker 2: gear as designed to be as rugged as the place

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Speaker 2: as we explore.

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Speaker 1: I've gotten letters from people who are sure that Osciola

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Speaker 1: has appeared to them in dreams, that they know where

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Speaker 1: he is, that he's speaking to them, that if I

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Speaker 1: would go out into my yard at the full moon,

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Speaker 1: Osceola would speak to me and tell me where to

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Speaker 1: find him. I've had every well, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to say mean things about him. Maybe they cared,

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Speaker 1: maybe they were interested, or maybe they only wanted the

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Speaker 1: notoriety for themselves, you know, maybe they wanted to be

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Speaker 1: able to say I did it, I found him. But

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Speaker 1: these were not rational possibilities.

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Speaker 2: The search for Osceola's head has been going on since

49
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Speaker 2: the trail went cold when famous surgeon doctor Valentine Mott

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Speaker 2: died in eighteen sixty five, inventory of his personal collections

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Speaker 2: of medical specimens were accounted for and the head wasn't there.

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Speaker 2: Since then, people have been trying to reunite Oceola's head

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Speaker 2: and body, and we know where his grave is, or

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Speaker 2: at least up until the nineteen sixties we thought we did.

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Speaker 2: This story is wild and in case you missed it,

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Speaker 2: on January thirtieth, eighteen thirty eight, Osciola died in Fort

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Speaker 2: Moultrie Prison in South Carolina, within sight of the Atlantic Ocean.

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Speaker 2: He was buried within twelve hours of his death, but

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Speaker 2: not before being decapitated by doctor Frederick Whedon, his attending

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Speaker 2: military contracted doctor. His head was stored in a glass

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Speaker 2: jar in the name of science. If you remember, Osceola

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Speaker 2: was one of two hundred and thirty seven seminoles captured

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Speaker 2: awaiting removal to Indian Territory in Oklahoma. He'd been captured

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Speaker 2: in late October eighteen thirty seven. While in prison, he

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Speaker 2: was allowed to attend to play in downtown Charleston, and

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Speaker 2: numerous portrait painters flocked to paint his likeness. Remember the

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Speaker 2: thirty four year old Osceola, also known as Billy Powell,

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Speaker 2: was a controversial national celebrity. In the last episode, we

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Speaker 2: were scant on the details of his burial. Here are

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Speaker 2: the deats from none other than Osceola authority, doctor Patricia

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Speaker 2: Wickman of Tallahassee, Florida. Let's go.

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Speaker 1: It was about six or seven o'clock in the evening

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Speaker 1: on the same day when he died, when he was

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Speaker 1: finally transported outside of the fort, and a hole had

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Speaker 1: been dug, a grave had been dug in the angle

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Speaker 1: of the fort, right out in front of the next

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Speaker 1: to the sally Port gate, and he was lowered into

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Speaker 1: the ground. And there are two more intra points that

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Speaker 1: occurred then that have given rise to miss two stories

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Speaker 1: about Assiola. There were four soldiers who were assigned to

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Speaker 1: take the coffin and It was an old style what

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Speaker 1: was called a towpincher coffin, and they were assigned to

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Speaker 1: carry it out, and they did that by slinging ropes

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Speaker 1: underneath the head and the feet, and four of them

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Speaker 1: each one two on each side held the ropes. And

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Speaker 1: as they walked out to the grave in the front.

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Speaker 1: We found out later quite obviously the man who was

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Speaker 1: up at the head of the coffin on what would

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Speaker 1: be Osciola's right hand side, wasn't quite paying attention, and

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Speaker 1: he dropped his rope and the body slid forward all

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Speaker 1: the way up to the head of the coffin.

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Speaker 2: How do we know that the coffin was dropped like that?

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Speaker 2: Did they review the prisons surveillance videos or did we

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Speaker 2: learn this by some other old school method. Regardless, the

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Speaker 2: burial appeared to be an unceremonial moment. It wasn't written

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Speaker 2: about recorded in any way. It's likely his wives were

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Speaker 2: there watching them lower his body into the ground, but

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Speaker 2: we really don't know that. They may have been permitted

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Speaker 2: to conduct traditional ceremonies of a seminole burial, but it's

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Speaker 2: really unknown. We do know they didn't let the seminoles

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Speaker 2: see his headless body. Remember the decapitation was done in secret.

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Speaker 2: But again, how do we know that the coffin was dropped?

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Speaker 1: If his head had been in there at that time,

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Speaker 1: the body never would have been able to go all

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Speaker 1: the way to the head of that coffin. So it

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Speaker 1: wasn't until later when we get to the archaeological story

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Speaker 1: and why there was an archaeological evaluation of that grave

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Speaker 1: and the evidence, the skeletal evidence.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Wickman has brought up the big question of why

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Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty seven there was an archaeological dig into

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Speaker 2: Ostiola's grave. I mean, how wild is that? Were they

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Speaker 2: trying to move him back to Florida like Ostiola wanted

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Speaker 2: or was it something else.

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Speaker 1: The most interesting part of this latter story, that what

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Speaker 1: we might call the epilogue of the Asciola story, had

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Speaker 1: to do with a man in Miami who was a

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Speaker 1: part of the Milk Board and he was running for

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Speaker 1: public office and he had decided that he wanted to

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Speaker 1: bring Osceola back to Florida. Now, as you mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 1: Osceola told doctor Whedon very close to his death that

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Speaker 1: his only wish was to be brought back to Florida

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Speaker 1: to rest in his homeland in Florida, but doctor Whedon

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Speaker 1: ignored that nobody ever tried to do that. And ever

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Speaker 1: since then there have been intermittent attempts by the state

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Speaker 1: of South Carolina, by the state of Florida, state of

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Speaker 1: Alabama to get these remains. There have been letters between governors.

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Speaker 1: Then there have been letters from people here in Florida.

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Speaker 1: There was one group who wanted to start a visitor

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Speaker 1: attraction at Rainbow Springs over on Florida's near Florida's west coast,

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Speaker 1: one of our many natural springs, and they were going

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Speaker 1: to build a memorial to Asciola there and they were

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Speaker 1: going to put his place's remains there. And each time

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Speaker 1: the National Park Service, which later became the proprietors.

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Speaker 2: Of Fortosophia Culture became a National park.

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Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, and the National Park Service took it over.

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Speaker 1: And the National Park Service said, now.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen forty eight, the US military based Fort Moultrie

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Speaker 2: would become a national park. And you can imagine what

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Speaker 2: a touchy subject it would be to remove the body

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Speaker 2: of a Native American. So it never happened. Also, this

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Speaker 2: is coming into the time period when America had won

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Speaker 2: World War Two, was becoming prosperous and influential in the world,

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Speaker 2: and we started to become very interested in our history

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Speaker 2: and the colorful American characters that filled in those spaces.

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Speaker 2: If you remember, David or Davy Crockett was pretty much

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Speaker 2: an obscure, forgotten character until he was rebirthed by Disney

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Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty five. It's interesting that the world was

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Speaker 2: starting to get interested again in Osceola during this time.

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Speaker 1: All right, Now, there's been some vandalism to his grave

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Speaker 1: over the years. There have been these arguments back and

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Speaker 1: forth between governors and states to try to bring him

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Speaker 1: back to Florida. But the most serious attempt, let's say,

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Speaker 1: was this man from South Florida who was running for

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Speaker 1: office down there. I think he wanted to be on

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Speaker 1: the city commission. And he went up to Charleston at

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Speaker 1: one point in the nineteen sixties and he dug at

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Speaker 1: went out in the middle of the night and dug

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Speaker 1: at Osceola's grave, and then he put out a press

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Speaker 1: release saying that he had Osciola's bones.

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Speaker 2: He vandalized, he dug under a gate or a fence

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Speaker 2: or something.

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Speaker 1: He dug well, he dug at the pailing that was

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Speaker 1: around the grave because there's a pailing that had been

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Speaker 1: constructed there, and there's a tombstone, and part of the

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Speaker 1: tombstone has fallen into disrepair, and people have taken pieces

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Speaker 1: of at home as souvenirs. I don't know what they

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Speaker 1: do with it when they get it.

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Speaker 2: The man was from Miami and his name was Otis Shriver.

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Speaker 2: He was a con man like Feller who vandalized the

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Speaker 2: grave in nineteen sixty six and claimed that he had

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Speaker 2: Ostiola's bones and that he'd reef buried them at a

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Speaker 2: place called Rainbow Springs in Florida. If your last name

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Speaker 2: is Shriver, you shouldn't feel immediate shame. But I'd suggest

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Speaker 2: going back and making sure that you're not blood ken

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Speaker 2: to this man, and if you are, you should keep

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Speaker 2: it to yourself. I'm just glad it wasn't a nucom

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Speaker 2: or a Reeves that pulled this stunt.

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Speaker 1: And he put up such a fuss about it. He

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Speaker 1: made it so public, and there were so many stories

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Speaker 1: circulating from the Miami Herald to the Charleston Courier and

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Speaker 1: back again that the National Park Service finally called their

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Speaker 1: chief archaeologist for the Southeastern region. All right, whose name

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Speaker 1: was John Griffin, and they said, come down. We want

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Speaker 1: you to come down and do a complete dig, or

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Speaker 1: we want you to dig in se whether he has

186
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Speaker 1: actually gotten into the grave or not. Could he be

187
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Speaker 1: telling the truth? Has he really found these bones? And

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Speaker 1: when John saw the site, and I say John because

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Speaker 1: he was a good friend of mine and because I've

190
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Speaker 1: I've looked through his records with him and visited with

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Speaker 1: him and discussed this topic with him, he went there

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Speaker 1: and looked at it, and he said it didn't look

193
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Speaker 1: as if they had gotten into the grave. But he thought,

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Speaker 1: as long as I'm here, and as long as we

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Speaker 1: have this opportunity, and it may never present itself again,

196
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Speaker 1: let's take a look.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a look. The archaeologist said, I've bet a

198
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Speaker 2: lot of archaeologists would have said that, But I'm not

199
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Speaker 2: sure that I would want to be digging up the

200
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Speaker 2: bones of Ostola. But holy cow, I'd like to have

201
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Speaker 2: been there when they did it. But are you surprised

202
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Speaker 2: that doctor Wickman knew the archaeologists that exhumed Osciola's grave,

203
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Speaker 2: not me. You remember I've said this like one hundred times.

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Speaker 2: But she was the state historyan of Florida and at

205
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Speaker 2: one time worked for the Seminal Tribe of Florida. She

206
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Speaker 2: wrote books about Ostiola. She's straight up legit. But this

207
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Speaker 2: wasn't the first rumor that Osceola wasn't in that grave.

208
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Speaker 1: There was also a rumor that had circulated over the

209
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Speaker 1: years that Osciola's bones had been dug up, that his

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Speaker 1: grave had been desecrated all right, And as a consequence,

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Speaker 1: John said, let's put the lie to all of this. Now,

212
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Speaker 1: let's get some answers, and so he did a dig

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Speaker 1: and it was John and that crew. The first thing

214
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Speaker 1: they found was that the water table was very, very high.

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Speaker 1: They wound up having to get help from the City

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Speaker 1: of Charleston and sink well points at the corners in

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Speaker 1: order to dry out the site before they could get

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Speaker 1: into it. The next thing they found out was that

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Speaker 1: the coffin the sides of the coffin had fallen in

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Speaker 1: on top of the skeletal remains, and then the top

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Speaker 1: of the coffin had fallen down when the sites fell in,

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Speaker 1: so it was all collapsed.

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Speaker 2: When John Griffin of the National Park Service got down

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Speaker 2: into the grave, they found something they weren't looking for,

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Speaker 2: something completely unexpected. Just take a minute right now, if

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Speaker 2: you're riding down the road in your truck, you might

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Speaker 2: probably got dogs barking in the tailgate. But ask who

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Speaker 2: you're riding with what you think might be down there,

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Speaker 2: because we're about to find out. Boy, would I like

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Speaker 2: to have been a National Park landscape or rubbernecking when

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Speaker 2: they found this. But to understand it, we're going to

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Speaker 2: need to go back to just before Osciola's death. So

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Speaker 2: right now, doctor Wickman is going to recount like a

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Speaker 2: sliver of his death and tell us something important.

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Speaker 1: He was very ill, He could hardly speak or talk.

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Speaker 1: Both of his wives were there with him, all right.

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Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, this is another mystery that attends the Asciola story.

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Speaker 1: One of the people who was there said that one

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Speaker 1: of his wives seemed to be more in favor with

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Speaker 1: him than the other. All right, but it's highly possible,

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Speaker 1: as we shall see in just a moment from the

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Speaker 1: end of the story, it's highly possible that she was pregnant.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't that she was in disfavor. It's just that

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Speaker 1: she was sequestering slightly, because a seminole woman would do

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Speaker 1: that when she was pregnant. That we also find out

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Speaker 1: that Asceola was not the only person who was buried

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Speaker 1: either that day or very soon after that day, because

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Speaker 1: there were actually two coffins buried there, and the other

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Speaker 1: one was the coffin of an infant, not a neonatal probably,

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Speaker 1: but a very young infant. And we have no way

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Speaker 1: of knowing anything about this child. There's no notation in

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Speaker 1: the military records that I've ever found of whose child

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Speaker 1: this was or why it was buried. Literally touching the

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Speaker 1: side of Asiola's coffin they were buried.

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Speaker 2: And we wouldn't know this for one hundred and fifty years.

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Speaker 1: We wouldn't know this until the mid twentieth century, all right, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and we'd only know it from the skeletal remains that

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Speaker 1: were examined as a result of the continuing saga of Osceola.

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Speaker 2: This infant is a complete mystery. But here are the

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Speaker 2: data points that we have. The child was buried in

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Speaker 2: a military graveyard with a military prisoner of war. They're

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Speaker 2: only two types of people here, American soldiers and seminole Indians,

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Speaker 2: so the options are pretty clear. I assume that the

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Speaker 2: child of an American soldier wouldn't have been buried there,

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Speaker 2: so we have to assume that it was a Seminole

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Speaker 2: prisoner's child that died within a few hours of osceola coincidence,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. But in this next section, doctor Wickman

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Speaker 2: shares her personal thoughts on where the child came from.

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Speaker 2: I want to reiterate that this is speculation, but she's

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Speaker 2: an authority, so I want to hear her thoughts.

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Speaker 1: All right. And we have no records from the fort,

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Speaker 1: from the soldiers who were there, from Pittgaren Morrison Noble,

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Speaker 1: complete mystery, but I am I feel certain knowing Indian

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Speaker 1: tradition and knowing that one comment about a wife who

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Speaker 1: was less in favor than the other. All right. There

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Speaker 1: is a tradition among the Seminole people and their ancestors,

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Speaker 1: the Mushkogi people of the Southeast that in times of

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Speaker 1: war or famine, a mother will kill a child, and

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Speaker 1: they do it because of desperation, if there's no meanness,

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Speaker 1: if there's if her husband has gone off to war

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Speaker 1: and he gets killed in war and she's not going

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Speaker 1: to have a man to hunt for her and protect

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Speaker 1: her and bring them food. If she's in time of

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Speaker 1: famine and they can't get what they want to eat

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Speaker 1: to survive. You know, if there's disease, if there are

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Speaker 1: any kinds of problems that mean that that child would

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Speaker 1: be crippled or disempowered in its in its life, then

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Speaker 1: they will stop it. They will not allow that child

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Speaker 1: to have to go through that.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Wickman believes the child was Osceola's after his day,

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Speaker 2: the mother, knowing the imminent, dangerous and grueling move to

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Speaker 2: Oklahoma that was coming, perhaps she ended the child's life.

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Speaker 2: I really don't think it's fair to make that big

294
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Speaker 2: of an assumption. We don't know where the child came from,

295
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Speaker 2: but the timing of their deaths and burial is unusual.

296
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Speaker 2: But as I understand it, and fanticide is fairly common

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Speaker 2: in the hunter gatherer tribes of the ancient world. And

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Speaker 2: not to bring up an incredibly controversial topic, but the

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Speaker 2: elephant in the room is a comparison to the modern

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Speaker 2: equivalent practice of abortion. This reminds me of Solomon's statement

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Speaker 2: that there is nothing new under the sun. Here's doctor

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Speaker 2: Wickman on what the excavation confirmed.

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Speaker 1: So any rate John did the dig, he found out

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Speaker 1: the first thing he found out was that there was

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Speaker 1: no head in the coffin for sure, all right. The

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Speaker 1: next thing he realized was that the head had gone,

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Speaker 1: had had moved all the way up against the head

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Speaker 1: of the coffin in the story that I related to

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Speaker 1: you earlier.

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Speaker 2: Right, So they when they put the coffin in, it

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Speaker 2: kind of tipped and the body crumpled up towards the front.

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Speaker 1: It did, it just slid down toward the front. And

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Speaker 1: we know the from the work that John did. If

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Speaker 1: you have a body that's laying on its back, and

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Speaker 1: whether it's in rigor or not doesn't actually matter, all right,

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Speaker 1: All the blood will begin to pool to the lowest

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Speaker 1: extremities when when a prison dies, and if the head

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Speaker 1: is laying there, the chin will begin to tilt downward.

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Speaker 1: And if you make an incision to take off the

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Speaker 1: head right at the bottom of the chin, you're going

321
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Speaker 1: to take the head off. You're going to encounter the

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Speaker 1: spine and take the head off at the fifth cervical vertebra.

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Speaker 1: And that's exactly what happened here, all right. So they

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Speaker 1: took the head and everything below that, pretty much everything

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Speaker 1: below that was still in the coffin. There were flanges missing, fingers, fingers,

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Speaker 1: there were toes that were missing, digits that were missing,

327
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Speaker 1: all right. So the old myth or the old story,

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Speaker 1: the rumor about Osceola have been having been wounded in

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Speaker 1: battle may have been true, and it could have been

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Speaker 1: a wound only to his hand, But it also could

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Speaker 1: have been a source of much of his illness and

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Speaker 1: much of his debilitation in eighteen thirty seven. You know,

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Speaker 1: he could have he could have been just too sick

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Speaker 1: to lead, and that could have been true, all right.

335
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Speaker 1: So the bones were examined by two physical anthropologists from

336
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Speaker 1: the Smithsonian Institution, t. Dale Stewart and Stewart and Red

337
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Speaker 1: all Right. And I spoke with t DL Stewart not

338
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Speaker 1: long before he passed away, and I asked him about

339
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Speaker 1: the remains and what he was able to glean from

340
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Speaker 1: the remains. The part that would have been most important

341
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Speaker 1: for telling whether showing us whether there was any non

342
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Speaker 1: Indian admixture, genetic admixture in him, was the part that

343
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 1: was missing. You needed the cranium, all right. But there

344
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 1: was some torsion, he called it, torsion in the long

345
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Speaker 1: bones of the legs that at that time anthropologists thought

346
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Speaker 1: might be a concomitant of black admixture in a person. Now,

347
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Speaker 1: since then that has been disproven. It's no longer used.

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Speaker 1: For instance, in a court of law, you wouldn't accept that,

349
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Speaker 1: So that endsize. Yes, I have no way of knowing

350
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Speaker 1: whether that Coppinger, that coping here was a slave of

351
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: the Coppinger family who had run away and taken refuge

352
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Speaker 1: for the Indians, or whether it was a Cuban all right,

353
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Speaker 1: or who it was, I don't, I don't know. And

354
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Speaker 1: the bones, several of the bones were actually molded, modeled,

355
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Speaker 1: They made models of them, and they put all of

356
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 1: the bones back into the coffin properly, and they sealed

357
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Speaker 1: the top of the coffin. So nobody's going to dig

358
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Speaker 1: into that coffin anymore.

359
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Speaker 3: His resting places is in Fort Moultrie, South Carolina. But

360
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Speaker 3: I always tell people that if you go to the

361
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 3: gray Side over there, that's always telling them there's a

362
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 3: headless corpse and then the casket in there. If you

363
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 3: always say that weren't paying the respects I saw, You're

364
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 3: gonna be up talking to a headless you know body

365
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 3: in there. Except that that story is not really talked

366
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 3: about a lot. You know, people will just you know,

367
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 3: hear the story that he's buried but they don't ever

368
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 3: hear that story where in his head and his body

369
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Speaker 3: parts were removed.

370
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Speaker 2: This is Jake Tiger. He's twenty six years old and

371
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Speaker 2: a member of the Seminole tribe in Oklahoma, and he

372
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Speaker 2: works in historic preservation. I have a question for him,

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Speaker 2: and I was surprised by his answer. How do the

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Speaker 2: Seminold people feel about oscil of being buried in South Carolina?

375
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Speaker 3: So working in historic preservation and dealing with ancestral mains,

376
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Speaker 3: you know, of course, you know there are certain certain

377
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 3: circumstances where we would like to have our people buried

378
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 3: in the traditional homelands. But if he was buried there,

379
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 3: and if they're you know, the right ceremony was conducted

380
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 3: to bury him, he should not be moved. That would

381
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 3: would waken his spirit. And you know, he was put

382
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 3: to rest for a reason. So if he's there and

383
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 3: that's final resting place, we should leave it there. So

384
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 3: that's at the traditional way to look at it, really, yeah,

385
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 3: is you know, once that that body has been put

386
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 3: in into the ground, and we we have certain ceremonies

387
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 3: that allow us to rest in our final resting place.

388
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 3: If as done, that's a done deal. You don't mess

389
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Speaker 3: with the body.

390
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: The location isn't as critical as the ceremony. According to

391
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 2: to Weeden, the doctor to cut his head off. He

392
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 2: wrote that Oscila wanted to want to how do you reconcile.

393
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 3: That at that time period? If you know, I think

394
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 3: his wishes could have been conducted back then when he

395
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 3: was was buried. But since his is he was put

396
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 3: in the ground in South Carolina, you know, it would

397
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 3: be hard for a lot of us to to take

398
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 3: them and move them once again.

399
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 2: So it could have you're saying, like, best case scenario,

400
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: his wishes would have been honored at the time and

401
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 2: the in his only would have been in Florida. That

402
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 2: didn't happen. He was a prisoner of war. The circumstances

403
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 2: just it just happened that he was buried in South

404
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 2: Carolina there on the fort. And as long as the

405
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 2: ceremony was correct, you're okay.

406
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 3: With that, Yeah, yeah, And that's always one of the

407
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 3: taboos we have in my department and historic preservation is

408
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 3: you know, some people think that, you know, we are archaeologists,

409
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 3: and we're do the exact opposite archeologists. We're trying to

410
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 3: get stuff off off of off of shells and universities

411
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 3: and museums. You know, you know, these are the bones

412
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 3: of our ancestors, and you know we're telling them if

413
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 3: you put it back where you found it, it should

414
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,959
Speaker 3: have been never moved. You know, that's not our belief system.

415
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 3: We don't you know, move our our ancestors around so

416
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 3: you can studium mm hm. And so that's that's what

417
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 3: really our whole offices has been founded on. That's why

418
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 3: we have nacra Is through repatriot all these ancestral remains,

419
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 3: and so that that's the way of United States trying

420
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 3: to follow our our wishes now finally of having funery

421
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 3: objects on museum displays, and these universities finally, you know,

422
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 3: handing over these ancestral remains that were used by anthropology

423
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 3: departments and archaeology departments, and I mean these universities they

424
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 3: got you know, hundreds, you know, thousands of remains, and

425
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 3: so it's really astonishing. And if you look at different

426
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 3: museums and universities that have these remains and objects that

427
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 3: belong to our ancestors and there on display, and it

428
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 3: doesn't happen to any other ethnic group, but only American

429
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 3: Indians and in that mass number, which is to me,

430
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Speaker 3: it's always seems strange why anthropologies and archaeologist wanted to

431
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 3: study us so bad. But but at the same time,

432
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 3: if you look at it, there was there was some

433
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 3: you know, someone will always you know, get entitled and say, well,

434
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 3: it's for educational purposes, and you know, y'all should get

435
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 3: over it and always tell someone to us as well,

436
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 3: how would you feel if we went to Arlington National

437
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 3: Cemetery and dug up all these vets and that fought

438
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 3: for your independence. How would you feel if we did

439
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 3: that and so and then they always get quite after that. Yeah,

440
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 3: and that's no way of looking at it.

441
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 2: NAGPRA is an acronym NAGPRA for the Native American Graves

442
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:26,479
Speaker 2: Protection and Repatriation Act, which was enacted in nineteen ninety

443
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 2: and basically funded agencies to return Native American cultural items

444
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 2: to the tribes. This is the final segment of our

445
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: time on Bear Greece with the Osceola story. I'd now

446
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 2: like to talk with a member of the Seminole tribe

447
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 2: of Florida, which we've not up until this point. We've

448
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 2: talked with Seminoles in Oklahoma. I'd like you to meet

449
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: this guy.

450
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 4: My name is Chandler Demayo. I'm a member of the

451
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 4: Seminole tribal Florida. I grew up on the Hollywood Reservation

452
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 4: in Hollywood, Florida, and I am a museum educator at

453
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 4: our att the Gee Museum, located on the Big Cypress Reservation.

454
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 2: Something that I think is interesting and we haven't yet

455
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 2: talked about, is the Florida State University using the Seminoles

456
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: at what most would understand to be a mascot. I

457
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 2: wanted to see what Chandler had to say about Osceola

458
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 2: and Florida State. I was surprised by his answer.

459
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 3: We're going to.

460
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 2: Jump in mid convo and he's talking about Ostiola standby.

461
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 4: I'd say as a Seminole, he's a controversial figure, but

462
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 4: I'm glad that he did what he did, and I'm

463
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 4: glad that we have that name to look up to.

464
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 4: You know, some people don't like him for whatever reason.

465
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 4: I know some people don't like the fact that the

466
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 4: tribe has him as FSU's mascot. Some people are happy

467
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 4: that we have presentation that works with the tribe. I

468
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 4: like the fact that they not only work with the tribe.

469
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 4: They have a whole procedure and everything is made by

470
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 4: tribal members. The outfit is historically accurate, they go through training.

471
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 4: I'd much rather that because I remember asking my late

472
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 4: grandpa about it, and I asked him, I said, you've

473
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 4: grown up in Florida all your life on the res

474
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 4: what was FSU's mascot before? And He's like, oh it,

475
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 4: Sammy Seminole was a white guy in a loincloth with

476
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 4: face paint who ran around with a hatchet and a

477
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 4: head dress, you know. And he said when they were

478
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 4: changing that they were thinking about changing the school's entire theme,

479
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 4: and the tribe got with them and said, would you

480
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 4: be willing to, you know, work with us on this

481
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 4: and we would help you out. And I'm not sure

482
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 4: exactly how that deal was made, but I know that

483
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 4: out of that, we now have correct representation and they

484
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 4: use our name and they don't use it in a

485
00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 4: bad way. You know.

486
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: Is the sound of seventy nine thousand people doing the

487
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: Florida State War chant while a Seminole warrior riding bareback

488
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 2: on an apples a horse named Renegade ride onto the

489
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 2: football field with a flaming spear it's really quite powerful,

490
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 2: and that's a dang good horse. In the time of

491
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 2: political correctness, it's refreshing to see a relationship between the

492
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 2: tribe and the university, which FSU seems to take really serious.

493
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 2: They have written on their website quote FSU pays tribute

494
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: to the resilience and courage of the Florida Seminoles. When

495
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 2: it refers to and represents the Seminole name and other

496
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 2: symbols such as osceola and renegade, the Florida Seminoles are

497
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: our partners, not our metastonts end of quote. I think

498
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 2: that's pretty cool. I want to close with Chandler talking

499
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: about the unconquered people.

500
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 4: So whenever you hear us talk about or say we're

501
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 4: the unconquered Seminoles or we're the unconquered, it refers to

502
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 4: the fact that we never signed away a treaty and

503
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,719
Speaker 4: moved from our homeland. Once we all came down to Florida,

504
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 4: we were already here in Florida. Depending on what group

505
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 4: you're from, they kind of all said it. You know,

506
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 4: the ones coming from up north, they were like, they're

507
00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 4: kicking us all out, and you know, they're throwing us

508
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 4: out out west, and they even came down here and

509
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 4: met with some of our elders at the time, the

510
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 4: older generations. We joke about it. They kind of wind

511
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 4: and dined them. They took them on train cars out

512
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 4: west to Oklahoma and you know, fed them steak and

513
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 4: lobster and showed them all the lands that they were

514
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 4: to receive. And they came back and they said, all right,

515
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 4: well you sign and they said no, but you know,

516
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 4: thanks for the free trip. And the ones that did

517
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 4: say that they were going to sign, when they came

518
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,439
Speaker 4: back to get their signature, they asked us and they said,

519
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,959
Speaker 4: where was you know, this older man. Where was this guy?

520
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 4: You know, we took him out there he said he

521
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,919
Speaker 4: was going to sign. Where'd he go? Oh, he's over there,

522
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 4: and you know, they point towards the tree line and

523
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 4: it would just be, you know, a hole with him

524
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 4: in it. You know, anybody that we found out was

525
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 4: going to take money and sell away our land or

526
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 4: sell out our people, if they were the leader of

527
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 4: say a you know, a group of five hundred and

528
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, yeah, I think I'm going to

529
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 4: take the money and sign my people away. If they

530
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 4: found out about it. They'd kill him and replace him,

531
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 4: and they would explain, they would tell him exactly what happened.

532
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 4: You know, Hey, he was going to sell us out.

533
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 4: We killed him. Osciola was one of those ones who

534
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 4: never really did that. He was always the voice against that.

535
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 4: He was always you know, I've come from somewhere where

536
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 4: they've taken everyone out. I've been to battles all throughout

537
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 4: my whole life. We're not going from here. This is

538
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 4: this is it for everyone, you know, this is the

539
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 4: last stand. I like that as a seminole. That makes

540
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 4: me proud, and it's something that I know. When I

541
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 4: was growing up, they talked about it more, and they're

542
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 4: starting to more with the younger generation, which I like

543
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,919
Speaker 4: they're letting them know even from a young age, there's

544
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 4: a reason that we use this word, and there's a

545
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 4: reason why you guys are still here and everyone else

546
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 4: is gone on the East Coast for the most part.

547
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 4: You know, the ones who are here are the ones

548
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 4: in even all the ones who like we have a

549
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 4: group of us in Oklahoma, a lot of them were

550
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 4: the ones who signed away, and some of them were,

551
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 4: you know, unfortunately taken from here during the war. You know,

552
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 4: put in chains and forced to walk, and we talk

553
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 4: about that, we talk about losing people and you know,

554
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 4: the things that we had to do to survive. And

555
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 4: we always try to make sure that everyone in the

556
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 4: tribe knows that there's a reason why we're still here.

557
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 4: It's those sacrifices that were made people like Osteola, people

558
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 4: like all these other historical figures throughout our history that

559
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 4: sacrificed and died and paid the ultimate price for you

560
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 4: guys to be here in Florida still, you know, still

561
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 4: enjoying the home that we that we have.

562
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 2: The Seminole Tribe of Florida was officially recognized in nineteen

563
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 2: fifty seven. Today there are over forty two hundred members

564
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 2: on six reservations that span over ninety thousand acres. The

565
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 2: unconquered people is such a powerful descriptor, and it's clear

566
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 2: that they take a lot of pride in that the

567
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 2: Seminoles was stood the entire mit of the US military

568
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 2: for over forty years. They weren't beaten and never signed

569
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:04,240
Speaker 2: a treaty given over their lands in Florida. The story

570
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 2: of Ostiola is tragic, inspirational, and such a wild history.

571
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 2: Lesson on the early years of America. I'm always kind

572
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 2: of bummed out when we end these series. I feel

573
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 2: like Ossiola has just been on my mind for the

574
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 2: last several months, and I'm always so grateful to be

575
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 2: able to tell these stories, to meet these wonderful people,

576
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 2: and to learn. I find myself always rooting for the underdog,

577
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 2: the overlooked, the gritty, rough cut ones that had the

578
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: internal resolve to stand for something. I can't thank you

579
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 2: enough for listening to Bear, Grease and Brent's This Country

580
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 2: Life podcast. I hope you have a great Thanksgiving with

581
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 2: friends and family. Please leave us a review on iTunes

582
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 2: and share our podcast with a friend. Over the holidays,

583
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,760
Speaker 2: maybe you'll be chowing down on a big old obbler turkey,

584
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 2: maybe some deer. But keep the wild places wild, because

585
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 2: that's where the bears live.