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Speaker 1: Amy Robock and TJ.

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Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan.

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Speaker 3: Hey, everyone, Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller.

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Speaker 3: Long before today's wave of true crime documentaries and dramatizations,

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Speaker 3: one TV movie terrified America by bringing the story of

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Speaker 3: serial killer Ted Bundy into millions of living rooms. The

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Speaker 3: Deliberate Stranger aired on NBC in nineteen eighty six and

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Speaker 3: starred Mark Harmon. The two part mini series follows Bundy's murders, manipulations, escapes,

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Speaker 3: and eventual capture, helping turn him into one of the

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Speaker 3: first true crime figures to become a national media obsession.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so for those.

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Speaker 3: Who might not be as familiar with Ted Bundy, he

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Speaker 3: is one of the most notorious serial killers in American history,

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Speaker 3: and he admitted to murdering over thirty women, and they

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Speaker 3: do believe that it was more in the hundreds. One

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Speaker 3: of the ways that he was so disturbing is he

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Speaker 3: was known as being very charming, very articulate. He predominantly

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Speaker 3: approached women on college campuses and sometimes he would act

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Speaker 3: as though he was injured and need a little bit

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Speaker 3: of help, or he would ask for their assistance with

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Speaker 3: something and then he brutally, brutally raped and murdered these women.

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Speaker 3: Today we're joined by Emmy winning actress Bonnie Bartlett, who

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Speaker 3: played Bundy's mother, Louise, a woman forced to confront the

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Speaker 3: unimaginable truth about her own son. Bonnie, Welcome to Killer Thriller.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for being here.

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Speaker 4: Oh, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: I know there are a million things that we could

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Speaker 3: talk to you about because you have such a phenomenal career,

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Speaker 3: and this one takes us back quite a ways.

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Speaker 1: But I am really.

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Speaker 3: Excited to talk to you about the Deliberate Stranger. And

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Speaker 3: you know, this came out before a lot of people

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Speaker 3: even fully understood who Ted Bundy was. So did it

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Speaker 3: feel shocking at the time to make a movie about

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Speaker 3: someone that was so recent and so infamous.

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Speaker 5: I didn't feel shocking, No, not at all. I thought

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Speaker 5: it was a good idea and he was great.

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Speaker 4: Mark was. I was surprised that Mark at Yes, Oh

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Speaker 4: well he did.

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Speaker 5: I really was, because I knew him from say, elsewhere,

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Speaker 5: but he didn't you know, he didn't show a lot

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Speaker 5: of promises, but I could.

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Speaker 4: Think that on this he was just terrific. It was

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Speaker 4: like he really got into the character and stayed there scary.

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Speaker 1: Yes, well, that was one of the things.

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Speaker 3: You know, he was so everyone considered Ted to be

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Speaker 3: so you know, charming and Mark certainly his work in

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Speaker 3: this that is what is so eerie about it. He's

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Speaker 3: just so charming and so uh. I mean, I think

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Speaker 3: it just really is part of what upsets everyone so much.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, he he was kind of a covered guy

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Speaker 5: when I knew him, and saying elsewhere, I would call

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Speaker 5: him covered.

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Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Oh interesting, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Out there he was covered.

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Speaker 5: And so then you know, of course he's gone on

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Speaker 5: to do that great series and he's done everything.

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Speaker 2: Right right, yes on n cis Yes, the first year. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so the you know, the thing about Ted is that

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Speaker 2: he he pray. I mean, there's a lot that's that's

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Speaker 2: to say about Ted money. But I think what was

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Speaker 2: so terrifying, as we said, is that he seemed so normal.

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Speaker 2: And do you think for you at the time, do you.

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Speaker 3: Did you fully grasp how calculated and predatory he was,

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Speaker 3: Like do you remember being alive at that time and

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Speaker 3: how you felt about the actual case.

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Speaker 5: It was something that I watched and you know, I

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Speaker 5: looked for and it was. It was incredibly scary. Yeah, incredible,

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Speaker 5: And because he was always at a university and young

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Speaker 5: girls and it was.

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Speaker 4: It's terrifying. You know.

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Speaker 5: I don't think it would happen today, but I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I mean, in a different way it might happen, but

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Speaker 5: not that way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. When they asked me to play the mother, and so.

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Speaker 5: For I researched it, you know, and so I came

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Speaker 5: in already to play a woman who was a little

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Speaker 5: demented because she had a relationship with him that was

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Speaker 5: not good. And I thought it was important. But they

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Speaker 5: didn't want me to do it in the movie. They said, no, no, no,

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Speaker 5: don't go near that.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, Really.

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Speaker 4: It was too soon.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it wasn't too soon for me, but it

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Speaker 5: was too soon for them to deal with that kind

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Speaker 5: of relationship in a film, do you know.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, you're kidding. So they weren't aware of the.

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Speaker 5: Well, I was very aware of it, and because I

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Speaker 5: had researched it and I knew a lot about it,

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Speaker 5: and I was prepared to play a complicated woman. And

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Speaker 5: they said no, no, no, you mustn't do that. Just

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Speaker 5: a loving mother, Just play a sweet, loving mother.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: So what do you mean about the kind of demented

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Speaker 3: relationship they had? I think, what do you mean specifically

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Speaker 3: that you researched it found out it was.

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Speaker 5: I mean, she definitely it was some kind of abuse.

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Speaker 5: It was a definitely kind of abuse because she she

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Speaker 5: permitted it, she went along with it. She may have

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Speaker 5: even instigated it. We don't know that, you know what

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Speaker 5: I mean?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I sure do.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to say that. They said, no, Oh my.

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Speaker 1: Gosh, that must have been wildly frustrating.

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Speaker 4: Well, that happened to be a lot Iisenhower.

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Speaker 5: I played Maimy, and of course everybody in the world

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Speaker 5: knew that Amy drank all right, right.

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Speaker 4: They said, no, no, no, you mustn't play any of that.

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Speaker 5: No, no, no, The Isena Eisenhower family does not want

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Speaker 5: you to portray her drinking. Wow, just a nice lady.

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Speaker 4: They don't want complications. Right.

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Speaker 3: That's so interesting because I do think you know it's

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Speaker 3: in watching this today and this this what we would

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Speaker 3: call this would be be considered a movie of the

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Speaker 3: week right at the time, and so you know, there

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Speaker 3: are some things that you know in some way, they're

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Speaker 3: far less explicit than things that we do today. But

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Speaker 3: also there's something almost more melodramatic. So it's so interesting

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Speaker 3: that they don't want to Actually they didn't want to

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Speaker 3: talk about the real nitty grit of things.

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Speaker 4: That's right, No, they didn't.

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Speaker 5: They were ready to get into you know, into that

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Speaker 5: kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: Yet oh wow, wow, Yeah, that's so unreal.

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Speaker 4: Allowed to do that.

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Speaker 1: Wow wow.

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Speaker 3: So this whole you know, uh, there's something that's happening

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Speaker 3: right now. I feel like this just happened in October

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Speaker 3: that you know, uh, Ted Bundy was known as doing

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Speaker 3: you know, kind of pretending to be injured. He would

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Speaker 3: wear fake casts and ask women to help him before

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Speaker 3: abducting him. And apparently there is someone that is doing

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Speaker 3: that again now as recently as in the fall. But

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Speaker 3: the the you know, the ironic part of this is that,

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Speaker 3: well it's not ironic. The interesting part of this is

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Speaker 3: that today this woman went on TikTok and told people

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Speaker 3: that there was a man that was doing this, and

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Speaker 3: then she sort of all of these other women came

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Speaker 3: out out and said he tried to do the same

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Speaker 3: thing to me.

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Speaker 1: So it's really interesting.

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Speaker 3: I mean, how far we've come, but that maybe you know,

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Speaker 3: when you're saying I don't think.

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Speaker 1: It would happen today. It's is it? Do you think

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Speaker 1: it's because we have so much information and so much

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Speaker 1: access to everyone?

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Speaker 5: Or probably probably Yeah, everybody's there before you are.

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Speaker 4: I mean right, I feel fast and so it's just

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Speaker 4: boom boom boom, and you know we know everything. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: you think we know everything?

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Speaker 1: Well, right, fair, Yeah, we think we know.

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Speaker 5: So.

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Speaker 1: I think that.

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Speaker 3: One of the reasons that the reasons that you know,

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Speaker 3: Ted Bundy terrified at people so much is because he

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Speaker 3: didn't fit that.

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Speaker 1: Stereotype of a serial killer. And I think that's a.

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Speaker 4: Lovely boy that you would welcome into your home. That's

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Speaker 4: what he was, right.

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Speaker 3: I heard someone one of the I think it was

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Speaker 3: one of the people that he was involved in politics,

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Speaker 3: who said something like, you know, he was the kind

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Speaker 3: of guy that you would want your sister to marry.

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Speaker 4: That's right, that's true.

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Speaker 3: That is just like that most terrifying thing ever, right, right,

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Speaker 3: So you played Louise Bundy obviously his his mom, and

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Speaker 3: she stood by Ted for years even after the evidence

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Speaker 3: just mounted and mounted against him. As the mother yourself,

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Speaker 3: could you emotionally understand Hallowise kept defending him.

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Speaker 4: That's a tough question.

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Speaker 5: I've never been put in that position, and I I

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Speaker 5: must say, if if the evidence was out there so much,

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Speaker 5: I would have retreated completely. I just would have retreated.

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Speaker 5: But I couldn't have defended the evidence was too much unless, as.

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Speaker 4: I say, but.

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Speaker 5: She's not me, she's I don't know what she was,

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Speaker 5: but she was off right off the radar.

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Speaker 4: She was.

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Speaker 1: She didn't write.

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Speaker 4: Boundaries, you know. She clearly had no boundaries.

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Speaker 1: Right right like your can't.

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Speaker 3: She's not operating from a no no the same place.

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Speaker 3: Did the set feel emotionally heavy knowing that many victims'

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Speaker 3: families were still alive and grieving while you were making it.

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Speaker 5: I can't imagine wanting to be part of it. So

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Speaker 5: I think that they must have been very protected, because

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Speaker 5: it wouldn't be right to put them out there, I

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Speaker 5: don't think.

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Speaker 4: But did they Did they put them all out there?

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Speaker 3: Many of the families had to. They testified, and they

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Speaker 3: were in the courtroom and things. But I don't know

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Speaker 3: what their feelings were about if they or if they

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Speaker 3: ever you know, commented on the actual miniserious because he

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Speaker 3: hadn't been executed yet by the time the miniseries came out.

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Speaker 1: He was still on death row.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's a tough one because I'm certainly against that,

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Speaker 5: and you know, I'm against killing him, right, what do

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Speaker 5: you do?

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Speaker 4: You just have to keep him in chains or something.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well? That was also another part of the crazy

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Speaker 1: part of this.

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Speaker 3: Is that he escaped custody twice, which I mean, this

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Speaker 3: really sounds almost unbelievable today, But did those escapes make

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Speaker 3: it feel more frightening to the public at the time, Like,

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Speaker 3: do you remember that?

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Speaker 4: I can't remember how did he escape?

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Speaker 3: The first time he jumped out a window when he

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Speaker 3: was in like the court building, and then another time

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Speaker 3: he actually escaped from prison itself.

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Speaker 5: He must have had help, you see, he could he

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Speaker 5: could charm people. He could convince them that he was

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Speaker 5: pure and sweet.

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Speaker 3: Right, those you know shots of Mark with his tennis

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Speaker 3: racket and you know, skipping around.

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Speaker 5: Well, yeah, and Mark did it beautifully because he was

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Speaker 5: able to, you know, get into that thinking that that

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Speaker 5: kind of thing, and he did a beautiful job.

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Speaker 3: It's so crazy, you know, looking back since doing this podcast,

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Speaker 3: there are a lot of there are some things that

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Speaker 3: kind of recur no matter what the cases we're talking about,

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Speaker 3: And I feel like one of those things is that

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Speaker 3: the flaws in our system, in both our legal system

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Speaker 3: and in you know, police research and all those sorts

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Speaker 3: of things, and it just kind of really reveals how

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Speaker 3: we are all humans, and there is human error. People

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Speaker 3: don't escape as much today, let's put it that way.

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Speaker 1: So I feel like there's something.

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Speaker 4: That's the whole point. If he were.

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Speaker 5: A burly, scary looking guy, probably somebody would have shown

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Speaker 5: him right now.

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Speaker 4: But he's not.

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Speaker 5: So it's hard, too hard to shoot. You don't want

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Speaker 5: to kill a perfectly nice looking, lovely speaking young man.

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Speaker 3: Right, I mean even his longtime girlfriend Elizabeth Kendall, she

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Speaker 3: struggled for years to believe whether or not he was guilty,

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Speaker 3: which just seems like so outrageous, but it speaks to

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Speaker 3: how how influential and kind of diabolically charming he was.

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Speaker 4: That's something she never believed.

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Speaker 1: Unuh, yeah, well she really struggled with it.

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Speaker 3: I think in the end she might have, but she

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Speaker 3: also supported him for a very long time.

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Speaker 4: Wow, it was Claire.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So there were all kinds of you. You

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Speaker 3: spoke by this a little bit, but there there are

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Speaker 3: There are a lot of rumors and confusion surrounding Ted

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Speaker 3: Bundy's upbringing, including questions about who his biological father was

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Speaker 3: and that he grew up believing his mother was his sister.

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Speaker 5: There have been a lot of people that that have

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Speaker 5: grown up believing their mother with his sister.

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Speaker 4: I've seen that a lot.

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Speaker 3: This is the this whole id I mean, we could

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Speaker 3: just do a whole other many episodes about this.

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Speaker 1: The un you know, the sort of home for unwed mothers. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there's sort.

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Speaker 3: Of an extreme, more extreme name for it, which is

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Speaker 3: really awful, where women who have to have children and

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Speaker 3: either the father is not around or in Ted's case,

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Speaker 3: I think they were saying he might have been at war,

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Speaker 3: he was a veteran and but either way, the women

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Speaker 3: are just blamed and they have to be kind of

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Speaker 3: sequestered away, and you know, it's like shameful.

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Speaker 1: To be having this child out of wedlock. And I

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Speaker 1: think that what was kind of going on at the time.

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Speaker 4: I believe that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, true crime is now everywhere, but

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Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty six, this kind of dramatization felt much

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Speaker 3: newer and more unsettling. And did it feel at the

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Speaker 3: time like people were uncomfortable even talking openly about crimes

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Speaker 3: like this.

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Speaker 5: No, never, No, because I mean I can remember some

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Speaker 5: of the old Hollywood stories.

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Speaker 4: Some girl got killed with a soda bottle or something.

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Speaker 4: I remember that.

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Speaker 5: So there were a lot of things like that that

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Speaker 5: were out there. There were very famous old stories, but

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Speaker 5: it was mostly with actors Hollywood people.

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Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah, a lot of that, a.

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Speaker 4: Lot of that stories, and of course I read them all.

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Speaker 5: And it was fascinated by all that because it presented

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Speaker 5: a picture of Hollywood that was very scary. That was

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Speaker 5: long ago, even before me and so and I'm ninety seven.

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Speaker 5: So but this kind of thing, Yeah, it was quite

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Speaker 5: quite believable. I mean, we knew it was there.

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Speaker 4: We knew it.

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Speaker 3: Did people you know, and this was happening in real time?

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Speaker 3: Did do you think did women genuinely move through the

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Speaker 3: world differently because of the fear of Bundy and others

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Speaker 3: perhaps like him.

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Speaker 4: No, I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: You don't think so.

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Speaker 5: I mean parents were always very protective of their children,

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Speaker 5: most parents, and they you know, so that they were

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Speaker 5: very protective. But I don't think that young women changed

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Speaker 5: their behavior because of it.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: So it's not like suddenly people were, you know, not

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Speaker 3: walking alone in the.

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Speaker 4: Well, wow, I don't think so.

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Speaker 3: Wow, It's like we're just immune or something. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I remember when I was growing up. It was the

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Speaker 3: son of Sam and I grew up on Long Island,

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Speaker 3: and I remember that moment of going.

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Speaker 1: Wait a second, is he could he be here? You know,

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Speaker 1: this kind of like terrible. There was like a moment.

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Speaker 3: Of oh my god, this is terrifying, and then talking

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Speaker 3: to my parents and them saying, you know, no, this

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Speaker 3: is you know, not happening. We live on Long Island,

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Speaker 3: we don't like but them having to like, you know,

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Speaker 3: tell me, you know, with with their own amount of certainty,

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Speaker 3: I suppose that he wasn't going to be you know,

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Speaker 3: coming through my window. I it was really scary, it was.

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Speaker 5: I didn't have any of that. But you were right

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Speaker 5: there near where he was, right.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I mean it was close enough. Yes, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's probably why. Yeah, so many women in the seventies were,

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Speaker 3: you know, they were just starting to experience more independence,

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Speaker 3: like living alone and traveling and going to college. Do

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Speaker 3: you think that Bundy prayed on that cultural moment in

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Speaker 3: a really specific way?

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Speaker 4: Oh gosh, I don't.

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Speaker 5: I don't know. I was very careless. I was from

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Speaker 5: the Midwest. I was from a small town. And then

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Speaker 5: when I went to New York and I was on

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Speaker 5: a soap opera to lead that, I was very careless.

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Speaker 4: I wrote a book.

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Speaker 5: I have a book that I wrote when I was

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Speaker 5: about ninety and I did I outlined some of the

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Speaker 5: things that happened because I was very careless.

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Speaker 4: Didn't my doors, things like that, And.

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Speaker 5: I had a feeling of probably wrongly, but I mean

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Speaker 5: I had a feel of complete independence and complete freedom,

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Speaker 5: and I was fearless.

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Speaker 4: I was fearless.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's why you've had an amazing life and career.

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Speaker 3: That's probably also partly what one like your spirit that

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Speaker 3: made you become an artist in the first place, but

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Speaker 3: also you know, being able to have that sort of

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Speaker 3: creativity and that spirit like it just does I suppose

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Speaker 3: lend itself to more freedom.

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Speaker 4: Well, I was an actress for this time.

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Speaker 5: I could remember, Yeah, my father had been an actor,

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Speaker 5: and I just it's what I.

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Speaker 3: Was so yeah, I mean, looking back now, do you

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Speaker 3: think does it surprise you that Ted is still one

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Speaker 3: of the most talked about killers in American history.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is nearly fifty years later.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't surprise me because he was so.

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Speaker 5: The last person one of the you would never suspect

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Speaker 5: him Indian series, right, and as you would, and Mark

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Speaker 5: playing the part was able to do that. He was

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Speaker 5: the all American football player, you know, nice, hate family,

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Speaker 5: all that stuff. So it would be a shock, right, indeed,

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Speaker 5: indeed a major shock, right, he were like that.

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Speaker 4: So that that was good casting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole cast, all of you, everybody all.

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Speaker 3: It's a really strong, strong cast, so many well known

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Speaker 3: character actors in that serious like chalk full of very

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Speaker 3: familiar faces, you know, all of you just continuing to

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Speaker 3: go on to very big careers.

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Speaker 1: This has been such a pleasure.

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Speaker 3: I hope that, you know, I'll do another podcast where

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Speaker 3: I get to talk to you about the other roles

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Speaker 3: that you've played that I'm so enamored with. But I

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Speaker 3: really appreciate you taking this time to talk with me today, Bonnie,

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Speaker 3: your your lovely well.

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Speaker 4: Thank you very much and I was pleased to do it.

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Speaker 4: Good luck to you.

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Speaker 1: With everything great. Thank you so much, Bonnie,