1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Amy Robock and TJ. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Elisa Donovan. 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 3: Hey, everyone, Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. 4 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 3: Few crimes changed America the way the murder of Matthew 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 3: Shepherd did. In October nineteen ninety eight, the twenty one 6 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 3: year old University of Wyoming student was brutally beaten, tied 7 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 3: to a fence outside Laramie, Wyoming, and left to die. 8 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 3: The case became a national flashpoint, sparking conversations about hate crimes, 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 3: LGBTQ rights, and violence that continued to this day. Just 10 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 3: three and a half years later, NBC dramatized the story 11 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,639 Speaker 3: in The Matthew Shepherd Story. Today we are joined by 12 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 3: Shane Meyer, who portrayed Matthew in the film and continues 13 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 3: to speak about his life and legacy. Shane, Welcome to 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 3: Killer Thriller. 15 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 16 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 3: I really, uh gosh, I didn't think I was gonna 17 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 3: get emotional before I said anything. I just I'm I'm really, 18 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 3: I'm just very happy to talk to you today. And 19 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 3: I think that this is it's such a deeply, deeply 20 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 3: disturbing and particularly brutal crime that it's just this this 21 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 3: this movie is very very powerful, and I think there 22 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 3: are rare moments when you know, this thing that we 23 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 3: get to do called entertainment can be very very valuable 24 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 3: and kind of transcend uh the word entertainment, and this 25 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 3: is one of those things. So I just wanted to 26 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 3: say how moved I was by your work in it, and. 27 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: That it's a really beautiful, beautiful project. 28 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: Thank you. You know, I I would argue, let me 29 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: say that it's the it's the biggest thing that I 30 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 2: ever did in my career as an act if you're 31 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 2: aware of. But I'm not really in the entertainment industry anymore. 32 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 3: I read that that you sort of I mean, I 33 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 3: don't know how you kind of top this one. 34 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: That's exactly it. I was thinking about this morning, and 35 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: I was like, I don't like. The reason why I 36 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 2: kind of pivoted is is because that's as good as 37 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: I can do. I mean, as a actor playing the 38 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 2: you know, the title role in a film that meant 39 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 2: so much to millions and millions of people and got 40 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: viewed by millions of people. Back when hate crimes were 41 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: very kind of rare and not I mean, they're happening 42 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 2: all the time now, it's very unfortunate. So, as I said, 43 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 2: I'd like to kind of just kind of not retire 44 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: but in my career on a high note and say, 45 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 2: you know what I am. I am. It's going to 46 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 2: take a lot to top that. So anytime anybody wants 47 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 2: me to speak about anything about the Matthew Shepard story, 48 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 2: I am hands down one on board. 49 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 4: So yeah, so why do you before you got the role, 50 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 4: were you how much did you know about Matthew and 51 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 4: had his that case already impacted you or what did 52 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 4: you know? 53 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 2: So I I didn't know a lot. I mean, I'm 54 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 2: up here in Vancouver, Canada, so my career is based 55 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 2: in Canada. Here in Vancouver. I remember I remember seeing 56 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 2: man I think it was a it was it Time 57 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 2: magazine or People magazine, some something. Some magazine had a 58 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: a blurb on him about like hate crime, and it 59 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: had happened a year before, I think, or a couple 60 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 2: of years before. But as an actor, I got my 61 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: agent called me and said, they're doing this this movie 62 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 2: the week back when we have movies of the week. Yeah, 63 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: and you know they're looking for this this actor, this 64 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 2: that that resembles him, And so I just did some 65 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: simple research and found out that I was like, holy man, 66 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: he actually does I do look like him because he 67 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: was very frail and small, and I've been small and 68 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 2: tiny my whole life. It was a big search. I 69 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 2: know that they were searching it ono, Vancouver, New York, LA, 70 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 2: that kind of thing. Uh. We knew that it was 71 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: shooting in Toronto's so they might hire a Canadian, but 72 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: we we didn't know there was Union rules on you know, 73 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: the second position or third position has to be a 74 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: Canadian actor. 75 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: Right right, there are specific rules. Yeah. 76 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I just put a you know, I I 77 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: did the audition. I put a tape together. First of all, 78 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 2: did the taping h and said it into I think 79 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 2: it was NBC. It was NBC, and the director immediately 80 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: director producers immediately got ahold of my agent said that's great, 81 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 2: we actually want to meet him. The director is going 82 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: to fly in and hold sessions in Vancouver. So that's 83 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: when I got to meet Roger spot. 84 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: Us with for the first it's the director. 85 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and uh, and did a little bit of research 86 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 2: in between them and kind of and that's when I 87 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: really kind of I'm like, oh, it's yeah, I do 88 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 2: remember hearing about this, he was crucified and tied to 89 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: a fence. But before that I did I didn't know 90 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: too too much about I knew that I knew the name, 91 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 2: and I knew this because the kind of the image 92 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: was everywhere. But after that, after I actually booked the part, 93 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: the real work research began and I kind of learned 94 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 2: how this, how this impacted the world. 95 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 3: For that matter, right, And so this was the film 96 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 3: came out and was shot only three and a half 97 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 3: years after his murder, And so Matthew's parents were very 98 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 3: much alive and actively involved in the the. 99 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: Approval. 100 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 3: I don't know were they They didn't have any thing 101 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 3: to do with the writing, right, but they were involved 102 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 3: with the production. 103 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, they were involved in but they didn't I 104 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 2: don't think. I don't think they had much to do 105 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 2: with the writing, you know, nothing to do. I mean, 106 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 2: I the first time I met Judah as a story 107 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,799 Speaker 2: in itself, and I'm sure we'll dive into that pace. 108 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: Yeah tell me. 109 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, so I got cast, so I didn't have 110 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 2: a I got cast in it, and I had maybe 111 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 2: a month. They're like, you need to be in Toronto. 112 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 2: We're shooting at Toronto we need to be in Toronto. 113 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 2: They're flying you out in three weeks. So research, research, research, 114 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 2: you know, I'm I'm, I'm I got a Vancouver's got 115 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 2: a fairly phenomenant gay gay crowd here. So I kind 116 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 2: of went and I'm a heterosexual male like, so I 117 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: I kind of did my little bit of research and 118 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 2: I sing every single restaurant and bar that I went 119 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 2: into with my brother at the time. You know, my 120 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 2: brother kind of was my body guard security though, and 121 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 2: I would tell them, I'd say, listen, I'm doing this 122 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 2: this film that's based on Matthew Shepherd. And immediately, like 123 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: I would have a group of people around me, you know, 124 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 2: oh my god, Like he was very well known. Everyone 125 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 2: knew of them. So that's kind of the extent of 126 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 2: my research. I would just sit down and talk to 127 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 2: these guys and I'd buy them a beer and tell me, 128 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 2: how did you you know, how do you how did 129 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 2: you hear about this guy? How did you tell me 130 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 2: how he impacted your life? That sort of thing. So 131 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 2: a couple of weeks in research and then off to Toronto, 132 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 2: and then it was camera testing and doing some rehearsals 133 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: with Roger and he was still actually casting some of 134 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 2: the parts down in Toronto, so I was able to 135 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 2: kind of help some stuff. And that's how I kind 136 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 2: of met Judy Shepherd for the first time. And I 137 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: remember chatting with the producers saying, listen, I want the 138 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 2: first meeting to really be very kind of no pressure, 139 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 2: like you know, extensions in at the time. So I 140 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: really started to look like him and I lost a 141 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 2: little bit of weight. 142 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 3: So and this is his mom for people that don't know, 143 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 3: Judy is Matthew's mom. 144 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I knew that she was going to be 145 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 2: in town. I just didn't know if she was staying 146 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: in the same hotel and whatnot. So I had been 147 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 2: kind of ingraining myself in Toronto, and you know, I 148 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 2: was there for a few weeks before and the first 149 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,239 Speaker 2: day of shooting was coming up, and I just didn't 150 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 2: know when she was coming into town. I know she 151 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 2: was coming into town to do a bunch of press, 152 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 2: you know, entertainment tonight was coming. We're going to do 153 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 2: this whole thing, But I didn't know how they were 154 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: going to set up this meet, this first introduction, because 155 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 2: I don't I mean, imagine meeting somebody that looks like 156 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: your son it's just I wanted it to be. It's 157 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 2: such a sensitive area, and I wanted it to be 158 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 2: very like, very kind of neutral ground and allow me 159 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 2: to say that, you know, I'm shame, like I'm not, 160 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: you know, like there's a big difference here, even though 161 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 2: I resemble him, there's there's a big, big difference. But 162 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: it kind of it kind of got away from us 163 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 2: because I remember walking out of the hotel lobby to 164 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: go have a bite to eat and a car was 165 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: pulling up and I was like, imagine if that was her, 166 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 2: And of course, out of the door walks and we 167 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 2: lock eyes and I remember looking at her. I'm We're 168 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 2: about twenty feet away, and she just stared at me 169 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 2: like it was like a deer in the headlights. And 170 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, Oh my god. So 171 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 2: I walked over to her and I literally was I said, listen, 172 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 2: I didn't know. I did not want this to happen. 173 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: I wanted it to be on neutral ground and a 174 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 2: very kind of like loving environment where it's just me 175 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: and her, maybe a dinner something like that, her and Roger, 176 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 2: or me her and Stockard. But it didn't happen. And 177 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 2: so I was like, I just walked up her and 178 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: I hugged her and I said, I want you to 179 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: know this is where I get. I want to know 180 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 2: that I will do the best job that I can 181 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 2: to make sure that we portray your son the way 182 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 2: that he would want and then you would want. So 183 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: she couldn't even talk. She looked, she was just like 184 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 2: she couldn't and there's just another embrace. And I said, 185 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 2: you know, let's let's you know, check into the hotel 186 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 2: because she had just landed in hotel, and we'll connect. 187 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 2: And I want you to know that I'm you know, 188 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 2: I want you to see Shane and not Matthew, but 189 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 2: I also want you to see Matthew and me as well. 190 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 2: So that was our first meeting and now we've and 191 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 2: then it was like we're bud. She's my second mother. 192 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 2: I call her every anniversary. That on Matthew's. 193 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. 194 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 2: Really, after the film, I went and did some speaking 195 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 2: engagements with her because she's she's like a motivation speaker, 196 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,439 Speaker 2: but she speaks at all these big events and I 197 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: actually traveled with her for a bunch of them with 198 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 2: the Matthew Shepard Foundation. 199 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. 200 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, she's a Deer. I love her to death and 201 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 2: I love everything that she's about. She's a very powerful 202 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: woman and somebody that I, yeah, that I have the 203 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 2: utmost respect for. 204 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my gosh, this is like what a gift 205 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 3: for her, I mean and for you. 206 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 5: But that's just like, yeah, it was tough, the very 207 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 5: tough shooting the show. It was a tough I mean, 208 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 5: it was like four or five weeks in Toronto at least, 209 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 5: and it was just I mean, you saw the film. 210 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 5: There were some very difficult things to portray and some dark, dark, 211 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 5: dark moments, and it's a dark film at the start 212 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 5: of the film, and that's why it was beautiful, because 213 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 5: it's like this horrendous. The first thirty seconds of that 214 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 5: film is so brutal. 215 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 3: It is you know, I think this is really interesting 216 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 3: because how a story is told is so vital to 217 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 3: these kinds of things. And it's like you have a 218 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 3: choice of either like leaning into the violence or not, 219 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 3: and there is power in both of those things. And 220 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 3: I just interviewed Jerrelle Jerome about when they see us 221 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 3: and they that series, which is so powerful and phenomenal, 222 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,839 Speaker 3: They they very much don't show a lot of the 223 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 3: violence in a way that is really impactful. And this 224 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 3: I was like, the first thirty seconds of this, it 225 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 3: is so powerful and so arresting, and I think it 226 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 3: is it's vital that the film starts that way because 227 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 3: it like it just it puts it in your face. 228 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: This like just despicable violence, like this hatred that. 229 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 4: Is so unfathomable. 230 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: It's like you can't believe it. 231 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember when so Roger spots with the director, 232 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 2: gave me a cut of it, like this is year 233 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 2: after but yeah, probably more than a year. And I 234 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 2: had a cut of it and I took it to 235 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: I live in my family's in Saskatchewan, so all my 236 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 2: aunt's nuckles and everybody lives in Saskatchewan. So I went 237 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 2: home for Christmas and we did like a I probably 238 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to do this, but I did like a 239 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 2: private screening with like all my cousins and nuncles. It's 240 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 2: probably fifteen of us, and I put it on and 241 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 2: nobody said a word. As soon as the film started, 242 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,959 Speaker 2: nobody said a word. For whatever. It is an hour 243 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 2: and a half. A mother to this day still hasn't 244 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 2: seen it. My birth mother still hasn't. She hasn't. She 245 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 2: can't ye get through that first, you know, that first 246 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 2: four or five minutes of it, and she knows how, 247 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 2: you know, she's tried to get through, but it's just 248 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 2: so she just can't. It's just too difficult to watch. 249 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 2: And yeah, it has and that's why I kind of 250 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 2: I did love the writing in that sense where it 251 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 2: hits hard because it's a very hard and hateful crime 252 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: and it's like, you know, the whole film isn't like that, 253 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 2: but it needs to grab you for the yes, a 254 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 2: few minutes, and it certainly does that with the I mean, 255 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 2: I don't know if it's like a sound Yeah, that's 256 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 2: what I was just about to mention rapid dogs. Yes, 257 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: I mean the hitting and it's just yeah, it was. 258 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 2: It's tough. 259 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: It is very, very very powerful and I so these. 260 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 3: How did you even process? Like how how did you 261 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 3: emotionally process all of that? 262 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: As an actor on? Like, I don't even know how 263 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: you I man, I. 264 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 2: Would say, like, I have never been a you know, 265 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 2: I've been an actor for twenty seven years prior to that, 266 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 2: well twenty five years prior, twenty years prior, but I 267 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 2: I it really was a method style actor. But this 268 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 2: one I certainly did jump right into it. I mean, 269 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 2: it was evident from the physical transformation I started when 270 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: I remember getting into these I fly in and I 271 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 2: meet Roger and you know, we're going for dinner and stuff, 272 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 2: and he's like, he didn't realize that my hair was 273 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 2: almost like it is right now. I was fairly sure. 274 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 2: And Matthew and all the photographs. You know, he's got 275 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 2: these long locks, beautiful locks too, So he's like, we 276 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 2: got to get your hair. I don't know how we're 277 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 2: going to do that. We got to get some extensions 278 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 2: in there. I was like, hey man, do what you 279 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 2: need to do. So spent about four and a half 280 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: to five hours and getting. 281 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: Old Welcome to the world of the ladies. It's sitting 282 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: in that chair. 283 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 2: For so they hurt, and then they had to diet 284 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: a certain color. And as soon as I looked at 285 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 2: myself with wardrobe on and the hair, I was like, okay, 286 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 2: this is and it's it's really start. So I I 287 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 2: went pretty heavy into like the method style, and I 288 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: was I was really I was again still doing research 289 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: on him, and you know, I just kind of embraced it, 290 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 2: and I had to set rate myself as soon as 291 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: I remember going in the elevator. Remember some funny story 292 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 2: that that there's one hotel that every all the actors, 293 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 2: Sutton Place Place. Yeah, yeah there. Remember the second or 294 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 2: third day, I was so exhausted, you know, thirteen fourteen 295 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 2: hour days, lots of time in the hair makeup trailer, 296 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 2: and I remember exhausted hitting the elevator button. Man, it's 297 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 2: about to close, and then this actor comes. I recognized 298 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: him right away, was blanking on his name, Scott Scott 299 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: something from Party of the Party of five. 300 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: Anyways, Scott Wolf, Scott Wolf, Scott Wolf. 301 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 2: But he looks at me, and I look at him, 302 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 2: and I'm like, how's it going? 303 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 4: Man? 304 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: He goes good, he goes long, long day shooting, and 305 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 2: I go, yees. 306 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: It is like a frat house and it's just fun. 307 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 2: I'm like, what are you in town shooting? He's like, 308 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 2: I'm doing this TV or this film that. He's like, 309 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 2: what are you doing? I'm like, I'm doing this Matthew 310 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 2: Shepherd things like cool man, And then the elevator opens. 311 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: We both leave, right, It's so funny like that, Yeah, 312 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: it is, it is. 313 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 2: But my point being that, like when I got to 314 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: the hotel, it was like Shane comes out and I 315 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: can eat dinner and have fun and that thing. But 316 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 2: when it's when I get into the truck, you're the 317 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 2: car going to set, it's like a kind of transformation. 318 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: And I really wanted to It's there was a lot 319 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 2: of pressure because it's like you're portraying it the first 320 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 2: time I've portrayed somebody in real life. It's like, right, 321 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 2: his mother is right there. 322 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, was she on set? Did she come to set well. 323 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 2: That first week? Yeah, because we had all the press, 324 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: We were doing all the whole boatload of press interviews 325 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 2: and stuff, and she was there for you know, for 326 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 2: three or four days of it anyways. So and even 327 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 2: if she wasn't, I still got a you know, the 328 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 2: footage is gonna come out at some point, and you 329 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 2: better do a good job totally that you've got you 330 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 2: know Stocker Channing, right, I mean right, Yeah. So it 331 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 2: was our Goldie Hawn produced it. Yeah, got all these 332 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 2: A list celebrities. There's like, if you don't have your 333 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: pardoner mind my language, we've done your ship together. 334 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: You're out together, and you better get it together. Yes. 335 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 3: So the men that were convicted of killing him, they 336 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 3: met Matthew at a bar that night and gained his 337 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 3: trust and said they were going. 338 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: To drive him home. 339 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 3: Is all of that, is that portrayal grounded in the 340 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 3: known facts of the case, that that's what happened. 341 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're going to get I mean, what's come out 342 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 2: is a lot of people say that it's he was 343 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 2: buying drugs from them or something, and you're going to 344 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 2: get a lot Yeah, yeah, controversy. You know, that's just 345 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 2: what the internet trolls do. Yeah, the bottom line is 346 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 2: that they you know, they they're they convinced this guy 347 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 2: that they were gay and and well, yeah, we'll give 348 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 2: you right home, Like that's uh. And they I mean 349 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 2: they drove him twenty five or thirty minutes outside of town. 350 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 2: I mean, so that's you know, and there's two of them, 351 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 2: so you know, I can imagine what he was thinking 352 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 2: prior to them. But yeah, you're going to get You're 353 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 2: going to get people that are obviously going to, you know, 354 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 2: try to stir up the pot of it and say 355 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 2: that he was doing something different or whatever. 356 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think that that sort of violence 357 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 3: and that kind of response is you know, based in 358 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 3: someone buying drunk, like it just doesn't make it. 359 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:13,919 Speaker 1: That is like a deep seated. 360 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 2: Hate that's exactly good it is. And these it's Larynie, 361 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 2: have you been like I grew up in Saskatchewan, Northern Saskatchewan, 362 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 2: which is literally right below or right above. Yeah, so 363 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 2: it's hate to say, but it's a lot of rednecks. 364 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 2: It's a lot of people that are like, you don't 365 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: belong here, like you don't what are you doing here? 366 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 2: So it's it's you know, that's why he moved to Denver, 367 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 2: and there's a little bit more sence in Denver with 368 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 2: the gay community. But yeah, it's you know, if you're 369 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 2: if you're gay in these rural areas, you're going to 370 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 2: stand out and people don't don't like it. 371 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 3: And it's amazing that it seems that his his spirit 372 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 3: was so just so so bright, like any I obviously 373 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 3: I've never met him, I didn't know him, but any 374 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 3: images that I see of him, and he just and 375 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 3: everyone says that he was very much out as a 376 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 3: gay young person and in difficult environments like that. There's 377 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 3: something just incredibly powerful about being able to stand in 378 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 3: the truth of who you are under those circumstances against 379 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 3: people that they want nothing but for you to fail, 380 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 3: you know, And he had such a like there's something 381 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 3: really powerful about that. 382 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 2: I think agreed, Yeah, he I mean he had a 383 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: difficult time coming out obviously that there's a scene in 384 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 2: the film where he comes out to his mom hat 385 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 2: you know, around his campfire, and you know, I don't 386 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 2: know how much of that is based on actions? Did 387 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 2: that Actually? Had I ever talked to Judy about that? Actually, 388 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: it's Facer bringing it up right now. I'm like, I 389 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 2: actually didn't ask actually ask her how he how he 390 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 2: first came out of the Yeah, you know with them, 391 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 2: But I thought that scene, I still I had that 392 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 2: scene on my my demo tape for years. It was 393 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 2: such a actually there's a there's this weird story behind 394 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 2: that scene too, but you know, the the emotion where 395 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 2: he's like he's frustrated, He's like get it, like you're 396 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 2: not understanding it, and then his dad he just goes, 397 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 2: who Cares? Yeah, like a big deal, we get you know, 398 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 2: you know. So it's like all this pressure that was 399 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 2: built up on him and then he just kind of let. 400 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: It out and and it's a great scene, like a 401 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: big deal. 402 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: We still love Who Cares? Very very powerful scene, difficulty 403 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 2: to shoot, very and more not more of a technical 404 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 2: There was rewrites on that scene, like oh really, oh god. 405 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 2: It was like, you know, we showed up, it was 406 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 2: a night shoot. So I show up at nine pm 407 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 2: getting the makeup. Roger knocks on my door, says, there's 408 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 2: some rewrites. 409 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: And we're going to do a whole new Yeah. 410 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 2: Basically like there's rewrites nighting in real time and we're 411 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 2: going to get it to you in the next few hours. 412 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 2: And I'm like, okay, So knalk on the trailer door 413 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 2: and I literally like, here's four page, four pages of dialogue. 414 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 3: One of the most important plot points in the movie. 415 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 2: Like yeah, so you could imagine me. I'm like, oh god, 416 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 2: I said, listen, I'm gonna do the best job I can, 417 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 2: but you know I might and I did. But a 418 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 2: lot of some of it was, you know, I told 419 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 2: Stockard and Sam I was like, you know, if I 420 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 2: flebble on, I'm going to kind of improvise, And because 421 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: you're in that moment, it's just kind of it builds 422 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 2: up until I'm gay I do it with other guys, Dad, 423 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 2: and then he's like, so like that's the crux, right, 424 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 2: So it was tough. There was steady cam and you know, 425 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,719 Speaker 2: big like dollies and multiple cameras and a lot of pressure. 426 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 2: But it was one of the it's probably the most difficult, 427 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 2: difficult time at shooting then. 428 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and that's one of those scenes that 429 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 3: any young gay person has gone through it. 430 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: You know, every one has some sort. 431 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 3: Of identification with that, right who's had to come out 432 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 3: to their parents or their communities. So like it's it's 433 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 3: such a it's an important part of the whole story. 434 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah. 435 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 6: Yeah. 436 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 3: One of the most powerful themes in the film and 437 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 3: also in I think their lives is that Judy and 438 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 3: Dennis they ultimately choose to not seek the death penalty 439 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 3: for both Aaron McKinnie and Russell Henderson, who were convicted 440 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 3: of murdering him, so they were eventually sentenced to life 441 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 3: in prison. Did Judy ever talk about that decision while 442 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 3: you were making the film? 443 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 2: Never talked to her, and we had a you know, 444 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 2: multiple conversations about other things, but was never even brought up. 445 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 2: I don't know why. I don't know if it was. 446 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 2: I don't know if she's trying to separate it and 447 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 2: just move all with her life. But it was never 448 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 2: it was never brought up like offset or socially with her. 449 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 2: I think it's I mean, if you're if if you're 450 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 2: asking my opinion on how that's like what the decision 451 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 2: that they made that they were that they did, it 452 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 2: comes down and just like that's how they are. It's 453 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 2: just clap like there, it's why would they want to take, 454 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 2: you know, another two lives of somebody? You know? Like 455 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 2: Dennis's speech is like that was powerful. It's like so 456 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 2: good to take your life. I want you to sit 457 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 2: there every Father's Day and every birthday and all to 458 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 2: think about the life that you took of mine. 459 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 3: That is another That speech is brilliant. It's a great 460 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 3: It's a beautiful scene in the in the movie. 461 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought it was too there. I forget, man, 462 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: it's been so long twenty five years since we shot this. 463 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 2: But the actor that portrayed I think it was McKinney 464 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 2: that he actually started crying like in the show. 465 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: Like he I was wondering that. 466 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 2: It was like I remember talking to Roger about it, 467 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 2: Roger or Stockard one of them, and they were like 468 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 2: he actually in the rehearsals and stuff, just started crying 469 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 2: it looked. 470 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 3: Very very very authentic, like it was like he couldn't 471 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 3: stop himself. 472 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, act great guy. 473 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh, I mean most you know, most actors never 474 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 3: have the opportunity to ask the victim's parents what their 475 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 3: child was really like. Did you what did Judy or 476 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 3: Dennis tell you about Matthew? 477 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 2: Well, you know, they he was just full of life, 478 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 2: you know, like a lot of it was the traveling 479 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 2: and stuff like you know anybody Saudi like they were 480 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 2: in Saudi Arabia quote often, and the whole Morocco thing. 481 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 3: Right, so that yeah, they say in the did they 482 00:24:58,359 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 3: talk about that with you? 483 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: That Morocca? 484 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 2: They said that something bad, I mean, something negative happened. 485 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 2: And I don't know if Hollywood is making it like 486 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 2: I think what happened is pretty accurate in the film, 487 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 2: which was extremely difficult to shoot too. But they didn't 488 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 2: they never dove deep into it. They you know, it's 489 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 2: kind of a private thing. You're not gonna sure, you know, 490 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 2: I don't even know if they knew what actually happened, 491 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 2: but I know that he was beaten and fit and 492 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 2: physically assaulted put it that way. But you know, they 493 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 2: they Judy would always talk about you know, he was 494 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 2: just full of life, just a fun, fun, funny, full 495 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 2: of life guy. And it was She said that the 496 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 2: our personalities were very very similar because I'm always like 497 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 2: the ball party and having fun and and she's like 498 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 2: he was. He was very much like that as well. 499 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 2: He was always like wanted to make sure everybody was 500 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 2: having fun. 501 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 3: Right, I mean that is just that is incredibly special, 502 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 3: Like it really is. And you can see like you 503 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 3: have on sc I because again I never met Matthew 504 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 3: and didn't know him, and watching I or seeing images 505 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 3: of you as him and Matthew, I would I didn't really, 506 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 3: I couldn't tell the difference, like I would think, oh wait, 507 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 3: is that the actor or is that really Matthew? 508 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: Like it's it's wild. 509 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. She always said that he was always Yeah, like 510 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 2: I said, he was the only always one that wanted 511 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 2: to make sure that everybody was comfortable and having fun. 512 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 2: And that's so deep because like the two people that 513 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 2: murdered him were the opposite of that. Right, you're making 514 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 2: me feel uncomfortable and you're you know, and we're gonna 515 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 2: we're gonna punish you for that in a way that 516 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 2: was so extreme that yeah, it's uh it's tough on him. 517 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: Oh god. 518 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 3: So that image of Matthew tied to the fence, it 519 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 3: became one of the most haunting images and modern true crime. 520 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 3: And there is a gorgeous Melissa Ethridge songs. You know 521 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 3: this song Scarecrow, Oh Dear God, it's very haunting and powerful. 522 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 2: And the Elton John song as well. Right, he wrote, 523 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 2: Oh yes, I was based on Matthew Shepherd's So yep. 524 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: It's wow. 525 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 3: So did you were there any details of the crime 526 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 3: like that that you read or the attack that you 527 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 3: just you wish you hadn't known. 528 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, very great question, and yeah there was. It just 529 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 2: got crazy goosebumps because I remember the actual fact, like 530 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 2: this is actual facts. Is the lady that found or 531 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 2: the person that found him, was looking across the field 532 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 2: and was like, yeah, it looks I think something's caught 533 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 2: like a wildlife or something is caught at Barbar. They 534 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 2: thought it was Barbar fans, and you know that half 535 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 2: a mile walk or whatever, the drive up and then 536 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 2: realizing that it was an actual human but you couldn't 537 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 2: tell that it was a human because you know, it's 538 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 2: so badly pistol whipped. Yeah, I didn't I didn't. I 539 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 2: remember going into the production office when I was doing 540 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 2: wardrobe or something and Roger wanted to talk to me 541 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 2: about The director wanted to talk to me about something, 542 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 2: and her I bring a new office. He brings me 543 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 2: into the office and I sit down and you know, 544 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 2: all on his his walls are like FBI photos, like 545 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 2: the actual photos and stuff. Now I didn't see any 546 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 2: of Matthew in it, but I saw the fence for 547 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 2: the first time and it was just like, oh wow, 548 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 2: like that's the actual that's the actual crime scene right there. 549 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 2: So that was just chilling. And yeah, I think that's 550 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 2: probably the most powerful. One of the most powerful parts 551 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 2: of the film. Is this this the you know, the 552 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,239 Speaker 2: you know, the policeman driving up and what it was 553 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 2: and checking his pulse because you know, yes, I didn't 554 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 2: even know what it was up to a mile. 555 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: Of right, like recognizable as a human being. 556 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 3: So was there any I mean, there are a lot 557 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 3: of very difficult scenes to shoot, I'm sure, but was 558 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 3: there any that you really dreaded filming because you knew 559 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 3: it was going to be super painful? 560 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 2: Yeah? Well there. That's the thing about this film is 561 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,719 Speaker 2: there were two or three, but the one that stands out. 562 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 2: The worst was the actual in Morocco, the raping, like 563 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 2: the oh, it was tough because it was you know there, 564 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 2: it was a stunt. You bring in stunt guys for this. 565 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 2: They were gentlemen, they were all awesome. And the one 566 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 2: guy come up to the coordinator, who actually was one 567 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 2: of the guys that did it, He's like, listen, I'm 568 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 2: gonna we have to like thrust ourselves on you and 569 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 2: hold you down. And I was like, that's you know, 570 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 2: that's fine. And he's like, if wherever going a little 571 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 2: bit too much or too physical, just just let us know. 572 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 2: And we had a Roger was there and we had 573 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 2: this code or we had a signal or something like that. 574 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: I was like, how could how bad is it going 575 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 2: to be? Like, it's not too too bad, and well man, 576 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 2: because we rehearted a bunch. And then when they called 577 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 2: the role and we actually shot it, it was just 578 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 2: I never yeah, just I can't even talk right now. 579 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 2: I can't even talk about it. It's just when somebody 580 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 2: is physically, when somebody's holding you down and all you 581 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 2: feel is just and your head is smashed into the 582 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 2: I think there's a barrel of hay or something, and 583 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 2: it was just a really really really really difficult scene 584 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 2: to do, really difficult scene. And there was, like I said, 585 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 2: there's three or four, but that was probably the one 586 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 2: that takes precedent for sure. 587 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 3: Right, How did did did how did production decide how 588 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:47,719 Speaker 3: much violence to show versus you know, insinuating or using imagination? 589 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: Was there any how did they decide on That's a. 590 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 2: Good question, and it's you know that lays down on Roger. 591 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 2: Roger shot it, you know, great director, and he shot 592 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 2: it in a way that shows it but doesn't show 593 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: here's a here's a good example. So another difficult scene 594 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 2: was was when we when he had Matthew has his 595 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 2: first kiss and you know with heterosexual man. Look at 596 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 2: the other actor was heterosexual too. So we kind of 597 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 2: like I said, listen, man, this is going to be 598 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 2: an awkward few hours, a few minutes. It's like hours 599 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: of doing right, So I go, let's get this out 600 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 2: of the way and let's have some fun. And we did. 601 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 2: It was like I remember I had put cheesey's in 602 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 2: my mouth, but when I went to kiss them and 603 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 2: there's like crap in my mouth. But anyways, when we 604 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 2: actually went to shooting in We're I'm kissing him, and 605 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 2: it's just it's a pretty passionate kiss, and Roger was 606 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 2: just while we're kissing it, you know, Roger the cake, 607 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 2: now grab his grab the back of his head. It's 608 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 2: passion Shane a little bit more so, he was doing 609 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 2: that whole like soap opera thing. A little bit more 610 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 2: now great now look in his eyes. And I just 611 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 2: was like, oh, more of this do you actually need? 612 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 2: But we made we made light of it. The point 613 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 2: is that we made light of a very awkward situation. 614 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 2: Another scene was I'm in the bathtub and I have 615 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 2: to wear what we call a banana hammock. It's yeah, 616 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 2: it's a nude color you know, thong basically, and it's 617 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 2: the first time I've ever been naked half na ball 618 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 2: more than had ninety naked in front of seventy five 619 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 2: crew members. So I was just like, all right, let's 620 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 2: get this out of the way. Everybody had a look 621 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: like right here, I am. You need to make light 622 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 2: of stuff like this in a very dark situation, and 623 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 2: I think we did the best job we could at it. 624 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 2: But yeah, there was there's some very awkward times in 625 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: that film. But again, I would have wouldn't have traded 626 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 2: in for the world. 627 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it really I thinking about that scene, the 628 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 3: Morocco scene, the way it's you know, different from. 629 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: Similar, because there is an. 630 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 3: Element at the opening of the movie, but that feels 631 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 3: so much more kind of really blatant in your face 632 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,239 Speaker 3: where you're feeling the violence, but there is still that 633 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 3: kind of like at a certain point it becomes almost 634 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 3: dreamy like, you know, and the same in the scene 635 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 3: of Morocco, where it's like you very much feel what 636 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 3: is going on there, but it's like not stark, you know, 637 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 3: it's not so it's. 638 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: Not exploitative, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. 639 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 2: You know, you're saying for sure it was. Again, that's 640 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 2: all on Roger, you know, fantastic director. You got to 641 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 2: do it classy. You can't do it trashy. You've got 642 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 2: to give it what it's you know, you got to 643 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 2: make sure that it leaves an impact. But it's not 644 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 2: done like way over the top. Now, the first two 645 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 2: minutes he went for and that's what the strip called for, 646 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 2: and that's you know, like it was like, let's hit 647 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 2: him hard because this is a hard crime and it 648 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 2: needs to leave an impact. 649 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 3: So it is I had forgot because I hadn't seen 650 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 3: it in so many years. And then I watched it 651 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 3: when I knew that we were going to speak today, 652 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,839 Speaker 3: and I was like, oh my god, it all I went. 653 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 3: I almost like blocked it out from watching it the 654 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 3: first time. 655 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: Is that strong? Like it's really. 656 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: Tough scene to do. The first scene, like again, it 657 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 2: was a night shoot and we were it was this 658 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,320 Speaker 2: huge crane shot. It was you know, in the middle 659 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 2: of this field and it was cold in Toronto, and 660 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 2: stunt coordinators like, you know, you're going to be going 661 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 2: going like this like four or five hours, and you know, 662 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 2: we had it rehearsed. It's like, you know, fifteen hits 663 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 2: this way and then this way and then then just 664 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 2: like you're you know, technically the muscles yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, 665 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 2: were incredibly sore for the next four or five days after, 666 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 2: but again emotionally too as well, as I had to 667 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,399 Speaker 2: kind of step back because you're they you know, you're 668 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 2: physically getting tied, you know, you props guy, that's like, okay, 669 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 2: if you need to get out, you know, if you 670 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 2: if you need to cut and get out real quick, 671 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 2: here's how you do it. Right, right, But it was 672 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 2: it was. Yeah, it was a tough one mentally. 673 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 3: So the the the movie aired just a week after 674 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 3: the HBO's The Laramie Project, and it focused less on 675 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 3: Matthew himself and more on how the murder affected the 676 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 3: town of Laramie. But did it feel like there was 677 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 3: just a national conversation happening about Matthew's story and how 678 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 3: it should be told? 679 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely does. There was. There was a lot 680 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 2: of press, there was a lot of you know, a 681 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 2: lot of hype on it. Two totally different programs, and 682 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 2: then The Laramie Project turned into this big theater thing, 683 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 2: which is amazing. But yeah, it was. It's and I 684 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 2: brought this up early on. It's like back when hate 685 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 2: crimes were like not a like, not an everyday occurrence. 686 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,959 Speaker 2: I forget who the there was a hate crime that happened, right, 687 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 2: and I think in the same month that the Matthew ship. 688 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 2: But the Matthew I want to say, Thomas Bird or 689 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 2: James Bird I believe was, yes, James Bird junior. Yes, 690 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 2: African American fellow that was again beaten and they they 691 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 2: dragged him around a town. I forget where it was, 692 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 2: but you know, those were two like kind of anomalies 693 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 2: like oh my god, like why what's going on? And 694 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 2: now you turn on the you turn on the news, 695 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 2: they're happening daily. Kids are getting you know, murdered because 696 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 2: they're trends or whatever it is. It's just it's terrifying 697 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 2: how how how often it's happening, and how how many 698 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 2: there are? 699 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: How many there are? Did it? 700 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 3: Did portraying Matthew change your own views in any way 701 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 3: on prejudice or violence or no? 702 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 2: Because just like Judy said, like I'm very I'm very 703 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 2: much like Matthew in that sense, I could care less. 704 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 2: You know, I don't care if I'm very neutral ground. 705 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 2: You know, it's like I don't judge people by their 706 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 2: skin color, their sexual the race, their religion. It's like humans, man, 707 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 2: you know where there's a lot of humans living in 708 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 2: a very small world and we all just need to 709 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 2: get along if you don't have to agree with somebody, 710 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 2: whether it's political, religion or or you know, sexual orientation, 711 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 2: but just you don't have to kill them. Are you 712 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 2: kidding me? Like it blows my mind. 713 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,879 Speaker 3: It blows my mind. Did you ever hear from any 714 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 3: viewers who told you you know that the movie changed 715 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 3: how they felt about LGBTQ people, or that they like 716 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 3: what was people were People's personal responses to you, you know, 717 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 3: are strangers. 718 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 2: I still get. I mean I had two or three 719 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,280 Speaker 2: this past week where people just you know, private message 720 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 2: me and they're like, wow, you need to know that 721 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,839 Speaker 2: your portrayal as him changed my life. And yeah, and 722 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,439 Speaker 2: just like it's it never stopped. I mean, they would 723 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 2: come and go kind of thing. But and then when 724 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,840 Speaker 2: the film came out, it was kind of before social media. 725 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,240 Speaker 2: There wasn't really a lot of social media. I'm twenty 726 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 2: three whatever, it is, twenty four years ago, so I didn't. 727 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 2: I didn't. You know, I get some Facebook stuff, but 728 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,799 Speaker 2: Facebook is not like you know, Twitter, Instagram. Yes, but 729 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 2: all the time and in Vancouver still, I mean, buddy, 730 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 2: when was it? It was I was having a just 731 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 2: a random beer on a street here in Vancouver and 732 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,800 Speaker 2: this bartender looked at me and he's just kind of staring. 733 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 2: He goes, did you did you play Matthew Shepherd? And 734 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 2: it's like, I did it, man, And he's like, oh 735 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,879 Speaker 2: my god. And he's like, I watched that film. I'm 736 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 2: gay myself, and I thought you did a fantastic He 737 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 2: bought me a beer and I was like, that's unbelievable. Man, 738 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,800 Speaker 2: twenty three years ago and this guy recognizes me. And 739 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 2: I've been out of the industry for I don't know 740 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 2: any of those years. So yeah, it it really left 741 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 2: an impact with a lot of people, and whether they're 742 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 2: gay or straight, but I get a lot of people 743 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 2: still coming up to me, which is awesome. It melts me. Yeah, 744 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 2: and you know, I I'm I always go out of 745 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 2: my way to you know, if they want to take 746 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 2: a photo or if they want to you know, I 747 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,359 Speaker 2: respond to every single one of the d ms where 748 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 2: they am like, thank you so much for the kind words. 749 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 2: You're amazing, you know, don't change because you're all love 750 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 2: and yeah, right, you spread it. 751 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: Oh, it's so important. 752 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:31,879 Speaker 3: The so the Matthew's murder eventually helped inspire federal hate 753 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 3: crime legislation. It's called the Matthew Shepherd and James Bird 754 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:53,320 Speaker 3: Junior Hate Crimes Prevention Act. When you were making the film, 755 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,280 Speaker 3: did you have any sense that the story would still 756 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 3: continue shaping public policy years later? 757 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 2: Not at all. I mean I knew that when I 758 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 2: went on the little speaking tour with Judy. I think 759 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 2: we did like some engagements in Denver and and kind 760 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 2: of around the area where speaking at schools and whatnot. 761 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,400 Speaker 2: I knew that she was all in and she's a 762 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 2: great speaker, and the Matthew Shepherd Foundation was just growing 763 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 2: and she was it was great to kind of be 764 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 2: a part of that for a couple of months after 765 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 2: and we did all these kind of toy drive things, 766 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 2: and I was I would go to the Matthew Shepherd 767 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 2: Foundation annual gala events where they would off the bears 768 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 2: that we would do, and I would fly down from 769 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 2: Vancouver and the you know, the Canadian kids come into town. 770 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 2: And he was developed all these kind of friendships with 771 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,760 Speaker 2: everybody in the Matthew Shepherd Foundation and Judy and Dennis 772 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,839 Speaker 2: and all of this stuff, and it was I could 773 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 2: see it kind of like building, but I did not 774 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 2: know that, you know, it would it would go to 775 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 2: like Congress and become this knew the Matthew Shepherd Act went. 776 00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 2: I mean, I remember when that happened. I reached out 777 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 2: to her and and just said, you know, I wasn't surprised. 778 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 2: I knew that you were going to take this to 779 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 2: the as high as you can take it. Yeah, I 780 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 2: certainly did. Yeah, very proud of her. And again, she's 781 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 2: like a second mother to me. And I love that woman. 782 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 2: She's awesome. 783 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,799 Speaker 1: Oh what a blessing. You know. 784 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 3: It's that we talk about this a lot in the 785 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 3: show how You you know, you talk about some really 786 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:31,320 Speaker 3: horrific things that happen, and this choice that surviving people 787 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 3: are left with, you know, of either to let it 788 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 3: completely destroy you or turn it into something that is meaningful. 789 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 3: And I'm always so deeply moved by the people that 790 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 3: really take what they've been given and try to make 791 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:56,280 Speaker 3: change and make connection and you know, forge communication and change. 792 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and she certainly has wonderful Yeah. 793 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,839 Speaker 3: If Matthew were alive today, what do you think would 794 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 3: surprise him most about the impact his story has had 795 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 3: on the world. 796 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 2: Hmm, that is a good question. Well, I mean he'd 797 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 2: be he certainly would be disappointed at the amount of 798 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:22,840 Speaker 2: crime and hate crimes that are continuing to happen. I 799 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 2: think he would. Yeah, I think he'd be a little 800 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 2: dumbfounded at that. But uh, I'd also like to think 801 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 2: that he's a pause he you know, like we just 802 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,880 Speaker 2: talked about, he's a positive thinker and he'd like to 803 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 2: think he would. There is change happening, whether his mother's 804 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,760 Speaker 2: doing it or somebody else, there there is slight change. 805 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:47,239 Speaker 2: Humans can can get kind of sweet like changed. It's 806 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 2: not not every human is a is you know, a 807 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:56,040 Speaker 2: born as psychopath. So I think that he probably would 808 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 2: have seen He probably looked at the at the at 809 00:42:58,120 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 2: the brighter things have been like, you know what, like 810 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,919 Speaker 2: let's let's all just love each other a little bit more. 811 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 2: And you know, that's that's kind of how I am too. 812 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,279 Speaker 2: It's like, you know, there's so much there's war going 813 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,560 Speaker 2: on right now, and there's everybody hates everybody, and there's 814 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 2: so much separatism, and it's like, why do we have 815 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,840 Speaker 2: to be separate? Republican Democrat, k straight, you know, like 816 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 2: it's like who cares? Like one of the things in 817 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,839 Speaker 2: Canada got some issues too. But I love the fact 818 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,200 Speaker 2: that we're a little bit more of a melt. We 819 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,399 Speaker 2: don't care like middle you could be Muslim, you could 820 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 2: be see if you could be Christian like it, we're 821 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,359 Speaker 2: all part of this nation where it's all like a 822 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 2: melting pot. And that's how I that's how I think 823 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 2: it should be in the world. But Unfortunately it's not. 824 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 2: And there's people in this world that are kind of 825 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,120 Speaker 2: even they want even more separatism, and it's just not 826 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 2: it's a recipe for disaster. 827 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 3: I couldn't agree with you more truly, truly, I I 828 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 3: am just I've really, really I've enjoyed talking with you, 829 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 3: and I'm so grateful that you took the time to 830 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 3: do this, and I just absolutely love your spirit and 831 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 3: that you're that you will continue to talk about this. 832 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,080 Speaker 3: It's it's it's a beautiful thing out of a horrific. 833 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 2: I mean, like I said, I I love I love 834 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 2: when people when it impacts people. To this day, twenty 835 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 2: five years later and here I am talking about it 836 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 2: just like I did, you know, a month after shooting it, 837 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 2: so happily I was happy to do this. I'm loving 838 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 2: people and spread the love. 839 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,439 Speaker 1: So what we say, so spread the love. I'm with you. 840 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:41,359 Speaker 2: Well. 841 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 3: The Matthew Shepherd Story is streaming on Amazon Prime and 842 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 3: probably some other places. I highly highly recommend it, and Shane, 843 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,839 Speaker 3: I've really love this time. Thank you so much.