Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg p m L Podcast. I'm pim Fox.
Speaker 1: Along with my co host Lisa Bramowitz. Each day we
Speaker 1: bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews for
Speaker 1: you and your money, whether you're at the grocery store
Speaker 1: or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg p m L
Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot com. Are
Speaker 1: we facing another government shutdown in the US? The last
Speaker 1: government shutdown was in two thousand thirteen, and now it
Speaker 1: appears we may be heading for yet another one. Laura
Speaker 1: Littvin covers the issues for us. She is the Bloomberg
Speaker 1: News congressional reporter. Laura, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: I want to just start with a better understanding of
Speaker 1: what exactly the deadline is that we're coming up against
Speaker 1: that could result in a government shutdown. Uh the deadline
Speaker 1: is we believe it's two a m. Saturday. And UH
Speaker 1: at this point, both sides are getting dug in. We
Speaker 1: had both repellic. What is the deadline is it? Is
Speaker 1: it that the sort of funding is up, but they
Speaker 1: have to extend it a certain amount. I mean, what
Speaker 1: is the accepted corect if the government? Uh, the agencies,
Speaker 1: almost all of them have not been funded to the
Speaker 1: remainder of the fiscal year. And if the deadline has
Speaker 1: reached and they don't have a continuation of funding a
Speaker 1: short term stop gap for something, if they want to
Speaker 1: continue their talks and aren't done with a full bill,
Speaker 1: then we had to see another shutdown, just like the
Speaker 1: Steen that was, of course a very extended sixteen day one. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, it seems more likely than not that we
Speaker 1: would have some kind of a temporary extension. That's what
Speaker 1: both sides are saying. Laura, Laura, could you just put
Speaker 1: this in a political context, because boy, this is you
Speaker 1: know what they say, deja vu all over again. I mean,
Speaker 1: after a while the public gets tired of hearing about this.
Speaker 1: You're bringing out Yogi Bear for this. I like it.
Speaker 1: Maybe he could, maybe he could fix what's going on
Speaker 1: in the government. Well, there's um a lessons interest in
Speaker 1: shutting the government down amongst some of the conservative Republicans
Speaker 1: who drove the last one. But there and there's also
Speaker 1: there's what's going on right now is a bit of
Speaker 1: a disconnect between the White House and Republicans in the Capital. Republicans,
Speaker 1: the leaders in both chambers are really trying have been
Speaker 1: working in recent weeks overseeing some talk that has just
Speaker 1: been between both parties on the Hill and it's not
Speaker 1: really involved the White House that much. And then the
Speaker 1: White House last Thursday started stepping in omb Director Mulvaney
Speaker 1: demanding funding for the border ball, which President Trump has
Speaker 1: requested as part of a supplemental budget request. On the Hill,
Speaker 1: they would rather take those and other tough issues like
Speaker 1: planned parenthood funding and other things and not deal with
Speaker 1: those right now, just have a straight funding bill. Laura,
Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned the law because over the weekend
Speaker 1: I was reading a variety of articles in which they
Speaker 1: kind of described how there are neither Republican nor Democrat
Speaker 1: leaders in any of the border states that would actually
Speaker 1: have the wall. None of them wanted. That's a real
Speaker 1: issue here this week. That's really kind of the backdrop,
Speaker 1: I think, is that you have a president who promised
Speaker 1: during the campaign that he would build a border wall,
Speaker 1: and you have Republicans in the capital all along have
Speaker 1: been poor an approach. That's their long standing position, which
Speaker 1: is they want to see more money for border security,
Speaker 1: that they want something that's more flexible that might involve
Speaker 1: sensing drone, more border patrol agents, things like that, and
Speaker 1: maybe some concrete reinforced areas, but not that's not really
Speaker 1: their primary goal here. And so there's that, and then
Speaker 1: there's also the question of whether people feel it should
Speaker 1: be about immediate and you see members of the Freedom Caucus,
Speaker 1: members from Texas who don't seem to be showing very
Speaker 1: much of an appetite to address any of this at
Speaker 1: this time when they are going to be turning around
Speaker 1: and talking about next physical year or sudget almost immediately,
Speaker 1: and what will drest it done? Well? But Laura, I mean,
Speaker 1: isn't this just always an exercise in kicking the can
Speaker 1: down the road? I mean, are we really expecting something comprehensive?
Speaker 1: Why can't they just sort of renew things as they
Speaker 1: are before, you know, proposing something more comprehensive and getting
Speaker 1: it through. I mean, why isn't that not just sort
Speaker 1: of the obvious go to thing. Well, I think what
Speaker 1: happens sometimes is that you can see where it's probably
Speaker 1: going to go, and then it takes them a bit
Speaker 1: of wrestling to get there. And I think we're maybe
Speaker 1: one or two away from doing something just like what
Speaker 1: you describe which is something fairly close to current levels
Speaker 1: of something it's short from extension, followed by something that
Speaker 1: will have some re juggled priorities that nothing particularly drastic,
Speaker 1: because it has to be by part of them. You
Speaker 1: not only need eight votes in the Senate to get
Speaker 1: sixty votes to overcome a filibuster, because Republicans have just
Speaker 1: fifty two votes, but then the House you can almost
Speaker 1: bank on the Conservative Freedom Caucus Republicans not wanting to
Speaker 1: vote for any bill like this, regardless of border funding
Speaker 1: and the event. So you need some democratic support and
Speaker 1: that's what they're rustling, is right. And you also you
Speaker 1: need something to keep the markets awake because people can
Speaker 1: now start worrying about a government shutdown. Can you just
Speaker 1: put into perspective what a government shutdown actually would look
Speaker 1: like and what the potential consequences would be on a
Speaker 1: broader scale, Well, you would have UM, almost all of
Speaker 1: the agencies have not had their funding approved, so you
Speaker 1: have everything shut down, from you know, the National Park
Speaker 1: Service to UM, you know, various agency work. UM. You know,
Speaker 1: it's meaning that nobody would go to work and no
Speaker 1: one would get paid. There's some provisions for dealing with
Speaker 1: people who have really important emergency related type jobs that
Speaker 1: do work, and they in the last time that's happened,
Speaker 1: I remember them doing some like back pay for people
Speaker 1: and working out some things. But if you remember it was,
Speaker 1: you know, things are pretty much shut down. Do uh
Speaker 1: do members of Congress and their staffs? Do they continue
Speaker 1: to get paid? Um? But I've got to remember from
Speaker 1: the last one, I do remember that some of them
Speaker 1: were even shutting down. Uh, a lot of their staffers were.
Speaker 1: I think they weren't because at least their staffers weren't,
Speaker 1: because some people there were a lot of complaints from
Speaker 1: constituents that people weren't even answering the phones when they
Speaker 1: were calling their congressmen to complain about it. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's striking to me that the deadline is coming
Speaker 1: up is going to also coincide with President Trump's one
Speaker 1: hundredth day in office, and the symbolism of that cannot
Speaker 1: have evaded him. How invested is he in making sure
Speaker 1: that we do not get the worst case outcome in
Speaker 1: this case? That's the that's a million dollar question right now,
Speaker 1: and no one can tell just how willing he is
Speaker 1: going to be to push this all the way over
Speaker 1: the brink. On the one hand, if if they forestalled
Speaker 1: or shutdown and do it, even if it's just doing
Speaker 1: a stop gaps something pushing this off for a week,
Speaker 1: he can say he did something that Presidental Lindennis, you
Speaker 1: know President Obama had a shut down. He can say
Speaker 1: I was able to keep the government going. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, his supporters feel very strongly. The people
Speaker 1: who voted for President from feel so strongly about a
Speaker 1: border wall, horror wall. Immigration issues are one of their
Speaker 1: cop issues. And he's already planned a rally in Pennsylvania
Speaker 1: just coming Saturday night, said going to the White House
Speaker 1: Correspondent Association, He's taking off and going a dinner. He's
Speaker 1: going to Pennsylvania's He's holding a rally. And it has
Speaker 1: a lot of people wondering is he planning on pulling
Speaker 1: out all the stops on the wall and then holding
Speaker 1: a rally. No one, No one knows, And so that's
Speaker 1: the big wild card in all of those. Well, we'll
Speaker 1: have to wait and see what happens. And I know
Speaker 1: you're going to keep us up to date on it.
Speaker 1: I didn't know maybe Pennsylvania. I don't think they get
Speaker 1: in the wall though, But that's okay. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe Pennsylvania and New York said, I don't know. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I want to appreciate it. Thanks very much. Laura Littvin
Speaker 1: is our Bloomberg News congressional reporter joining us from I
Speaker 1: believe she's in the Senate Press Gallery today, So thanks
Speaker 1: very much for being with us. We're broadcasting from the
Speaker 1: the Future of Energy Summit. It's all powered by Bloomberg
Speaker 1: New Energy Finance. We are here broadcasting live from the
Speaker 1: two seventeen New York Future of Energy Summit, which is
Speaker 1: powered by Bloomberg New Energy Finance. And I'm honored to
Speaker 1: bring in Carl Pope. He's principal advisor for Inside Straight Strategies.
Speaker 1: He also is the former head of the Sierra Club,
Speaker 1: and he's out with a new book which is called
Speaker 1: Climate of Hope, How Cities, Businesses and Citizens Can Save
Speaker 1: the Planet, which is co authored by Michael Bloomberg, former
Speaker 1: Mayor of New York City and the founder of Bloomberg LP. Carl,
Speaker 1: We're so happy to have you join us today. I
Speaker 1: wanted just to start before we get into what we
Speaker 1: can be doing to mitigate uh man made climate change.
Speaker 1: Has your hope's proceeded since the latest US election, and
Speaker 1: given some of the rhetoric that has come out of
Speaker 1: the current presidential administration, well, I think we obviously have
Speaker 1: a new barrier to overcome in the attitude of the
Speaker 1: new administration in Washington. On the other hand, if I
Speaker 1: look at what's been happening in the rest of the world,
Speaker 1: my hope is greater than it was before election day.
Speaker 1: The fact is, we have a very very powerful tail
Speaker 1: wind pushing us towards climate solutions in the form of
Speaker 1: city leadership, in the form of technological innovation, in the
Speaker 1: form of having a company as mainstream is Budweiser Beer
Speaker 1: decide that they really need to go one dent clean energy.
Speaker 1: That's not the kind of announcement I would have expect
Speaker 1: it even a year ago. So I'm actually more hopeful,
Speaker 1: although I'm really not too hopeful when to go to Washington,
Speaker 1: d C. So I tried to avoid it. Well Mr Mr, Okay,
Speaker 1: we won't make you go there. But you know, obviously,
Speaker 1: the one of the themes in your book has to
Speaker 1: do with cities. So I'm wondering what should cities and
Speaker 1: municipalities be doing, not only in terms of let's say
Speaker 1: the clean energy agenda. But there's all the revenue that
Speaker 1: currently flows from the energy generation business, maybe call it
Speaker 1: a legacy business. All that revenue still flows to the municipalities.
Speaker 1: What happens if that revenue starts to dry up because
Speaker 1: people put solar panels on their roof or they are
Speaker 1: no longer going to be driving as much, So that
Speaker 1: means that the taxes paid for improving highways decreases. What
Speaker 1: what are some of the challenges. Well, one of the
Speaker 1: things that is actually happening is that more and more
Speaker 1: American cities are moving from legacy fossil fuels to innovative
Speaker 1: wind and solar. The reason they're moving, for the most part, frankly,
Speaker 1: is not the climate. The reason they're moving is it
Speaker 1: saves their customers money. And if a city can give
Speaker 1: its businesses and it's red and it's cheaper electricity, that
Speaker 1: is very good for economic development. Let me tell you,
Speaker 1: mayors love that. Similarly, we just saw an announcement by
Speaker 1: twenty cities that they are putting out a joint tender,
Speaker 1: a bid trying to buy a hundred thousand electric vehicles
Speaker 1: because they understand if they buy their electric vehicles together,
Speaker 1: they'll be able to get a better price. Volume drives
Speaker 1: down cost. And second, when they go electric, all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, they don't need to spend as much money
Speaker 1: buying diesel or gasoline, and diesel and gasoline do not
Speaker 1: come from inside cities those that's money that has to
Speaker 1: be sent somewhere else. So cities are realizing that a
Speaker 1: clean energy future is an energy future in which more
Speaker 1: of the dollars that are generated in that city stay
Speaker 1: to the benefit of that city. That's one of the
Speaker 1: major things driving mayors forward. Just to follow up there
Speaker 1: having to do with cities, do you believe that things
Speaker 1: like congestion charges and offering free parking for all electric
Speaker 1: vehicle is something that all cities should embrace, Well, all
Speaker 1: cities shouldn't embrace probably any one solution because every city
Speaker 1: is different. My partnership with Mike Bloomberg actually began as
Speaker 1: an effort to implement congestion pricing is a way of
Speaker 1: financing mass transit and Lower Manhattan. We didn't get there.
Speaker 1: So there is resistance to ideas like congestion pricing, even
Speaker 1: in a city is sophisticated as New York, although really
Speaker 1: the problem was in New York. The problem with state
Speaker 1: government in Albany that wouldn't give Mayor Bloomberg permission to
Speaker 1: do that. And even today New York's transit system still
Speaker 1: needs the money that would have been raised by congestion pricing.
Speaker 1: I think the key thing to understand, though, is every
Speaker 1: city has its own unique set of problems and its
Speaker 1: own unique set of opportunities, and you need to look
Speaker 1: at the problems, look at the opportunities, pair them up,
Speaker 1: and move forward. One of the things that's frankly depressing
Speaker 1: about Washington is Washington is looking to the rear view mirror.
Speaker 1: Washington is trying to make a mayor America great by
Speaker 1: holding onto yesterday's technologies. Cities don't have that. Luxury cities
Speaker 1: are not competing to be the home of the next
Speaker 1: bug equipped manufacturer. Cities are competing to be the home
Speaker 1: of the next electric car dealership. Right Well, Carl, is
Speaker 1: there anything that's currently going on in any particular city
Speaker 1: that you can point to as something that is an
Speaker 1: optimistic development that you think should serve as a model. Sure,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna point to Salt Lake City, and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: point to Salt Lake City because it is after all,
Speaker 1: the largest city in the most republican state in the nation,
Speaker 1: so you can't say it's Berkeley or even New York City.
Speaker 1: Salt Lake City has announced that it is going to
Speaker 1: source one hundred percent of its electricity from renewables, and
Speaker 1: Salt Lake City has the fastest growing mass transit capacity
Speaker 1: of any large city in North America. And Salt Lake
Speaker 1: City is doing that because the people, the residents care
Speaker 1: about the quality of their life. They want to have
Speaker 1: a dynamic economy. Used to be dependent on mining and
Speaker 1: extraction industries. Now they're dependent on knowledge and invention industries.
Speaker 1: That's the way to the future. And it's not just
Speaker 1: Salt Lake City. The first the first city in the
Speaker 1: United States to go on renewable was Georgetown, Texas, and
Speaker 1: the mayor of Georgetown had to explain, folks, I'm not
Speaker 1: doing this because I'm green. I mean, Al Gore didn't
Speaker 1: come and take over our city. I'm doing this because
Speaker 1: it saves money, cleaner, cheaper, and what's not the like?
Speaker 1: All right, thanks very much. Carl Pope as a principal
Speaker 1: advisor inside a Straight Strategies. He is also the former
Speaker 1: executive director and chairman of the Sierra Club, and he
Speaker 1: is the co author of a new book entitled Climate
Speaker 1: of Hope, How Cities, businesses, and citizens Can Save the
Speaker 1: Planet that is co authored also by former New York
Speaker 1: City Mayor Michael Bloomberg. Michael Bloomberg is the founder and
Speaker 1: majority owner of Bloomberg Peak. We want to take a
Speaker 1: moment to let you know about something new from Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: Starting right now, you can use our i O s
Speaker 1: app or our new Google Chrome extension to scan any
Speaker 1: news story on any website, instantly revealing relevant news and
Speaker 1: market data from Bloomberg and other sources related to the
Speaker 1: companies and people you're reading about. So no matter where
Speaker 1: you're reading the news, you can bring the power of
Speaker 1: Bloomberg's news and data with you. It's pretty amazing. Download
Speaker 1: our io s app or search for the Bloomberg extension
Speaker 1: on the Chrome Store to try it out. Learn more
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com slash lens. We are broadcasting from
Speaker 1: the future of energy some but it's all powered by
Speaker 1: Bloomberg and New Energy Finance. And here to tell us
Speaker 1: more about energy is Alka Lunt, the President and the
Speaker 1: chief executive of Statenet, and he joins us here at
Speaker 1: the conference rate to have you with us. Thanks for
Speaker 1: coming in. Um. You know, I wonder if you could
Speaker 1: just give people a little bit of your background because
Speaker 1: they may not know about stating net and Norwegian Company
Speaker 1: and the role that it plays not just in Norway
Speaker 1: but throughout the world when it comes to energy generator transmission.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Stopping that is the National Grid
Speaker 1: Company of Norway. We are basically running the central ridd
Speaker 1: for the hold of the country. We have only renewable
Speaker 1: production in Norway, so we were very happy to do that. Uh.
Speaker 1: And that hydro power which we have enables us to
Speaker 1: move both production from one time to the other and
Speaker 1: do that by interconnecting our system to our neighboring countries.
Speaker 1: So you know, one thing that people talk about with renewables,
Speaker 1: one big problem is you can't really store it the
Speaker 1: same way you can take oil and put it on
Speaker 1: a tanker and float it out in the Mediterranean. Uh.
Speaker 1: How have you solved this problem? Because you're you're sort
Speaker 1: of touching on it but being explicitly please about how
Speaker 1: exactly this sort of connect Those ideas are the idea
Speaker 1: of storing renewables versus transmitting them. So hydro is a
Speaker 1: is a great source. You can open the valve if
Speaker 1: you want it and you need it, and you can
Speaker 1: stop it if you don't need it. So we through
Speaker 1: hydro reservoirs we can collect water during rainy periods and
Speaker 1: let the water run during dry periods. So that's basically
Speaker 1: a way of storying, and that's how we solve our
Speaker 1: own demand because sometimes it doesn't rain also in Norway,
Speaker 1: so we need that for our own system. But we
Speaker 1: also have interconnected our grid to the Danish, the Dutch
Speaker 1: and the German and going to do it to the
Speaker 1: German and the UK grid. Through those interconnections you can
Speaker 1: move this storage capacity we have also down to those countries.
Speaker 1: If you look at Denmark, they've been able to install
Speaker 1: a huge amount of wind power and are running from
Speaker 1: time to time like sixty or seven of their demand
Speaker 1: is covered by wind and the remaining parts would then
Speaker 1: actually come through the interconnectors from Norway. Just to be
Speaker 1: very clear about what this is, it sort of flips
Speaker 1: the idea of storage on its head. It's not that
Speaker 1: you're actually storing, and it's at the electrical current is
Speaker 1: going somewhere at all times, but it's going to where
Speaker 1: it need. It's needed exactly, and so it's not necessarily
Speaker 1: storing in a way that a lot of people think
Speaker 1: of storage, which is you put it in a box
Speaker 1: and you hold it till later. Well, yes or no.
Speaker 1: You can imagine that the through these interconnectors in Denmark,
Speaker 1: sometimes the wind is so strong that they produce more
Speaker 1: wind than they need and then they basically send that
Speaker 1: power to Norway. And what we do is that we
Speaker 1: then stop our turbines to produce, and it means we
Speaker 1: store the water in our reservoirs and leave it for
Speaker 1: the next day. And even in sometimes if prices are
Speaker 1: really low because of the oversupply wind, we would read pump.
Speaker 1: We would pump water from a lower level to a
Speaker 1: higher level and could then the day after reverse it
Speaker 1: and thereby get electricity back. So basically you do actually
Speaker 1: store in reservoirs. But a very important part here is
Speaker 1: that you have a market which really works, because the
Speaker 1: market gives you the signal when should I keep the
Speaker 1: water in the reservoir, when should they let it go?
Speaker 1: When it is electricity from wind very cheap, and I
Speaker 1: could get that in my system and and store it
Speaker 1: for the next day, I wonder if you could just
Speaker 1: speak to the issue of being a state owned company,
Speaker 1: because obviously utilities are owned in many different forms all
Speaker 1: over the world. How does being state owned help you?
Speaker 1: I think it's almost in the country like you actually
Speaker 1: should say that, but it's almost a predicacit preg with
Speaker 1: it for our the way we have functioned or or
Speaker 1: created our markets. We have installed a completely independent system
Speaker 1: up Rador owning the transmission system which is start meet
Speaker 1: and it is stayed downed. So we have a very
Speaker 1: strong mandate to take care of security supply in Norway
Speaker 1: at any point in time and run the system at
Speaker 1: what they call the socio economic within socio economic view
Speaker 1: on how we do things. And that distinguishes a little
Speaker 1: bit from the other companies who could have specific maybe
Speaker 1: have shareholders exactly, so we we have, I would argue,
Speaker 1: a much broader view than the individual companies which produce
Speaker 1: and and and connect. So do you think that the
Speaker 1: model that you're talking about the markets that you follow
Speaker 1: could be replicated in a uh non state owned company
Speaker 1: or do you think that it's very specific to the
Speaker 1: model that you currently have in Norway. No, I think
Speaker 1: you can do it. Of course, it's not the only
Speaker 1: way to organize the market. We have also one of
Speaker 1: our Navory countries. We have a similar company like Startnet,
Speaker 1: which partly owned by pension funds, and its functions although
Speaker 1: a bit different than we do. I just want to
Speaker 1: catch your talks on something that you own. I think
Speaker 1: about a third of nord Pool, right, nord Pool. Just
Speaker 1: to give you a thirty second what is nordpol. Explain
Speaker 1: to people how that's interesting. Well, as I mentioned just
Speaker 1: a minute ago, that the markets are extremely important in
Speaker 1: this type of system, you need the right pricing signals.
Speaker 1: North Pole is the power exchange where all producers have
Speaker 1: to nominate what they're going to deliver and the market
Speaker 1: will tell what they want to ask in. The market
Speaker 1: will clear and give prices, and those prices give the
Speaker 1: right signals whether we should store water or we should
Speaker 1: we should leave the water down. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining us. Truly fascinating discussion. Okay Launde is president
Speaker 1: and chief executive as stat Net, which is Norway's power
Speaker 1: and electric grid. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg P
Speaker 1: and L podcast. You can subscribe and listen to interviews
Speaker 1: at Apple pod Casts, SoundCloud or whatever podcast platform. You prefer.
Speaker 1: I'm pim Fox. I'm on Twitter at pim Fox. I'm
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Lisa Abramo wits one Before the podcast,
Speaker 1: you can always catch us worldwide on Bloomberg Radio