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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg p m L Podcast. I'm pim Fox.

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Speaker 1: Along with my co host Lisa Bramowitz. Each day we

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Speaker 1: bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews for

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Speaker 1: you and your money, whether you're at the grocery store

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Speaker 1: or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg p m L

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Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot com. Are

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Speaker 1: we facing another government shutdown in the US? The last

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Speaker 1: government shutdown was in two thousand thirteen, and now it

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Speaker 1: appears we may be heading for yet another one. Laura

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Speaker 1: Littvin covers the issues for us. She is the Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: News congressional reporter. Laura, thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: I want to just start with a better understanding of

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Speaker 1: what exactly the deadline is that we're coming up against

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Speaker 1: that could result in a government shutdown. Uh the deadline

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Speaker 1: is we believe it's two a m. Saturday. And UH

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Speaker 1: at this point, both sides are getting dug in. We

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Speaker 1: had both repellic. What is the deadline is it? Is

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Speaker 1: it that the sort of funding is up, but they

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Speaker 1: have to extend it a certain amount. I mean, what

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Speaker 1: is the accepted corect if the government? Uh, the agencies,

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Speaker 1: almost all of them have not been funded to the

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Speaker 1: remainder of the fiscal year. And if the deadline has

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Speaker 1: reached and they don't have a continuation of funding a

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Speaker 1: short term stop gap for something, if they want to

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Speaker 1: continue their talks and aren't done with a full bill,

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Speaker 1: then we had to see another shutdown, just like the

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Speaker 1: Steen that was, of course a very extended sixteen day one. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, it seems more likely than not that we

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Speaker 1: would have some kind of a temporary extension. That's what

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Speaker 1: both sides are saying. Laura, Laura, could you just put

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Speaker 1: this in a political context, because boy, this is you

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Speaker 1: know what they say, deja vu all over again. I mean,

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Speaker 1: after a while the public gets tired of hearing about this.

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Speaker 1: You're bringing out Yogi Bear for this. I like it.

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Speaker 1: Maybe he could, maybe he could fix what's going on

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Speaker 1: in the government. Well, there's um a lessons interest in

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Speaker 1: shutting the government down amongst some of the conservative Republicans

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Speaker 1: who drove the last one. But there and there's also

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Speaker 1: there's what's going on right now is a bit of

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Speaker 1: a disconnect between the White House and Republicans in the Capital. Republicans,

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Speaker 1: the leaders in both chambers are really trying have been

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Speaker 1: working in recent weeks overseeing some talk that has just

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Speaker 1: been between both parties on the Hill and it's not

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Speaker 1: really involved the White House that much. And then the

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Speaker 1: White House last Thursday started stepping in omb Director Mulvaney

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Speaker 1: demanding funding for the border ball, which President Trump has

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Speaker 1: requested as part of a supplemental budget request. On the Hill,

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Speaker 1: they would rather take those and other tough issues like

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Speaker 1: planned parenthood funding and other things and not deal with

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Speaker 1: those right now, just have a straight funding bill. Laura,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned the law because over the weekend

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Speaker 1: I was reading a variety of articles in which they

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Speaker 1: kind of described how there are neither Republican nor Democrat

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Speaker 1: leaders in any of the border states that would actually

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Speaker 1: have the wall. None of them wanted. That's a real

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Speaker 1: issue here this week. That's really kind of the backdrop,

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Speaker 1: I think, is that you have a president who promised

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Speaker 1: during the campaign that he would build a border wall,

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Speaker 1: and you have Republicans in the capital all along have

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Speaker 1: been poor an approach. That's their long standing position, which

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Speaker 1: is they want to see more money for border security,

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Speaker 1: that they want something that's more flexible that might involve

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Speaker 1: sensing drone, more border patrol agents, things like that, and

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Speaker 1: maybe some concrete reinforced areas, but not that's not really

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Speaker 1: their primary goal here. And so there's that, and then

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Speaker 1: there's also the question of whether people feel it should

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Speaker 1: be about immediate and you see members of the Freedom Caucus,

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Speaker 1: members from Texas who don't seem to be showing very

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Speaker 1: much of an appetite to address any of this at

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Speaker 1: this time when they are going to be turning around

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Speaker 1: and talking about next physical year or sudget almost immediately,

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Speaker 1: and what will drest it done? Well? But Laura, I mean,

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Speaker 1: isn't this just always an exercise in kicking the can

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Speaker 1: down the road? I mean, are we really expecting something comprehensive?

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Speaker 1: Why can't they just sort of renew things as they

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Speaker 1: are before, you know, proposing something more comprehensive and getting

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Speaker 1: it through. I mean, why isn't that not just sort

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Speaker 1: of the obvious go to thing. Well, I think what

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Speaker 1: happens sometimes is that you can see where it's probably

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Speaker 1: going to go, and then it takes them a bit

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Speaker 1: of wrestling to get there. And I think we're maybe

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Speaker 1: one or two away from doing something just like what

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Speaker 1: you describe which is something fairly close to current levels

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Speaker 1: of something it's short from extension, followed by something that

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Speaker 1: will have some re juggled priorities that nothing particularly drastic,

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Speaker 1: because it has to be by part of them. You

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Speaker 1: not only need eight votes in the Senate to get

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Speaker 1: sixty votes to overcome a filibuster, because Republicans have just

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Speaker 1: fifty two votes, but then the House you can almost

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Speaker 1: bank on the Conservative Freedom Caucus Republicans not wanting to

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Speaker 1: vote for any bill like this, regardless of border funding

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Speaker 1: and the event. So you need some democratic support and

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Speaker 1: that's what they're rustling, is right. And you also you

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Speaker 1: need something to keep the markets awake because people can

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Speaker 1: now start worrying about a government shutdown. Can you just

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Speaker 1: put into perspective what a government shutdown actually would look

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Speaker 1: like and what the potential consequences would be on a

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Speaker 1: broader scale, Well, you would have UM, almost all of

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Speaker 1: the agencies have not had their funding approved, so you

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Speaker 1: have everything shut down, from you know, the National Park

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Speaker 1: Service to UM, you know, various agency work. UM. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's meaning that nobody would go to work and no

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Speaker 1: one would get paid. There's some provisions for dealing with

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Speaker 1: people who have really important emergency related type jobs that

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Speaker 1: do work, and they in the last time that's happened,

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Speaker 1: I remember them doing some like back pay for people

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Speaker 1: and working out some things. But if you remember it was,

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Speaker 1: you know, things are pretty much shut down. Do uh

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Speaker 1: do members of Congress and their staffs? Do they continue

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Speaker 1: to get paid? Um? But I've got to remember from

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Speaker 1: the last one, I do remember that some of them

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Speaker 1: were even shutting down. Uh, a lot of their staffers were.

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Speaker 1: I think they weren't because at least their staffers weren't,

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Speaker 1: because some people there were a lot of complaints from

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Speaker 1: constituents that people weren't even answering the phones when they

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Speaker 1: were calling their congressmen to complain about it. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's striking to me that the deadline is coming

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Speaker 1: up is going to also coincide with President Trump's one

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Speaker 1: hundredth day in office, and the symbolism of that cannot

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Speaker 1: have evaded him. How invested is he in making sure

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Speaker 1: that we do not get the worst case outcome in

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Speaker 1: this case? That's the that's a million dollar question right now,

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Speaker 1: and no one can tell just how willing he is

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Speaker 1: going to be to push this all the way over

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Speaker 1: the brink. On the one hand, if if they forestalled

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Speaker 1: or shutdown and do it, even if it's just doing

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Speaker 1: a stop gaps something pushing this off for a week,

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Speaker 1: he can say he did something that Presidental Lindennis, you

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Speaker 1: know President Obama had a shut down. He can say

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Speaker 1: I was able to keep the government going. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, his supporters feel very strongly. The people

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Speaker 1: who voted for President from feel so strongly about a

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Speaker 1: border wall, horror wall. Immigration issues are one of their

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Speaker 1: cop issues. And he's already planned a rally in Pennsylvania

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Speaker 1: just coming Saturday night, said going to the White House

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Speaker 1: Correspondent Association, He's taking off and going a dinner. He's

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Speaker 1: going to Pennsylvania's He's holding a rally. And it has

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Speaker 1: a lot of people wondering is he planning on pulling

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Speaker 1: out all the stops on the wall and then holding

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Speaker 1: a rally. No one, No one knows, And so that's

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Speaker 1: the big wild card in all of those. Well, we'll

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Speaker 1: have to wait and see what happens. And I know

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Speaker 1: you're going to keep us up to date on it.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know maybe Pennsylvania. I don't think they get

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Speaker 1: in the wall though, But that's okay. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Maybe Pennsylvania and New York said, I don't know. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I want to appreciate it. Thanks very much. Laura Littvin

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Speaker 1: is our Bloomberg News congressional reporter joining us from I

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Speaker 1: believe she's in the Senate Press Gallery today, So thanks

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Speaker 1: very much for being with us. We're broadcasting from the

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Speaker 1: the Future of Energy Summit. It's all powered by Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: New Energy Finance. We are here broadcasting live from the

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Speaker 1: two seventeen New York Future of Energy Summit, which is

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Speaker 1: powered by Bloomberg New Energy Finance. And I'm honored to

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Speaker 1: bring in Carl Pope. He's principal advisor for Inside Straight Strategies.

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Speaker 1: He also is the former head of the Sierra Club,

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Speaker 1: and he's out with a new book which is called

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Speaker 1: Climate of Hope, How Cities, Businesses and Citizens Can Save

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Speaker 1: the Planet, which is co authored by Michael Bloomberg, former

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Speaker 1: Mayor of New York City and the founder of Bloomberg LP. Carl,

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Speaker 1: We're so happy to have you join us today. I

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Speaker 1: wanted just to start before we get into what we

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Speaker 1: can be doing to mitigate uh man made climate change.

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Speaker 1: Has your hope's proceeded since the latest US election, and

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Speaker 1: given some of the rhetoric that has come out of

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Speaker 1: the current presidential administration, well, I think we obviously have

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Speaker 1: a new barrier to overcome in the attitude of the

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Speaker 1: new administration in Washington. On the other hand, if I

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Speaker 1: look at what's been happening in the rest of the world,

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Speaker 1: my hope is greater than it was before election day.

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Speaker 1: The fact is, we have a very very powerful tail

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Speaker 1: wind pushing us towards climate solutions in the form of

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Speaker 1: city leadership, in the form of technological innovation, in the

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Speaker 1: form of having a company as mainstream is Budweiser Beer

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Speaker 1: decide that they really need to go one dent clean energy.

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Speaker 1: That's not the kind of announcement I would have expect

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Speaker 1: it even a year ago. So I'm actually more hopeful,

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Speaker 1: although I'm really not too hopeful when to go to Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. So I tried to avoid it. Well Mr Mr, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we won't make you go there. But you know, obviously,

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Speaker 1: the one of the themes in your book has to

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Speaker 1: do with cities. So I'm wondering what should cities and

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Speaker 1: municipalities be doing, not only in terms of let's say

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Speaker 1: the clean energy agenda. But there's all the revenue that

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Speaker 1: currently flows from the energy generation business, maybe call it

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Speaker 1: a legacy business. All that revenue still flows to the municipalities.

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Speaker 1: What happens if that revenue starts to dry up because

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Speaker 1: people put solar panels on their roof or they are

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Speaker 1: no longer going to be driving as much, So that

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Speaker 1: means that the taxes paid for improving highways decreases. What

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Speaker 1: what are some of the challenges. Well, one of the

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Speaker 1: things that is actually happening is that more and more

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Speaker 1: American cities are moving from legacy fossil fuels to innovative

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Speaker 1: wind and solar. The reason they're moving, for the most part, frankly,

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Speaker 1: is not the climate. The reason they're moving is it

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Speaker 1: saves their customers money. And if a city can give

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Speaker 1: its businesses and it's red and it's cheaper electricity, that

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Speaker 1: is very good for economic development. Let me tell you,

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Speaker 1: mayors love that. Similarly, we just saw an announcement by

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Speaker 1: twenty cities that they are putting out a joint tender,

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Speaker 1: a bid trying to buy a hundred thousand electric vehicles

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Speaker 1: because they understand if they buy their electric vehicles together,

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Speaker 1: they'll be able to get a better price. Volume drives

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Speaker 1: down cost. And second, when they go electric, all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, they don't need to spend as much money

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Speaker 1: buying diesel or gasoline, and diesel and gasoline do not

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Speaker 1: come from inside cities those that's money that has to

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Speaker 1: be sent somewhere else. So cities are realizing that a

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Speaker 1: clean energy future is an energy future in which more

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Speaker 1: of the dollars that are generated in that city stay

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Speaker 1: to the benefit of that city. That's one of the

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Speaker 1: major things driving mayors forward. Just to follow up there

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Speaker 1: having to do with cities, do you believe that things

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Speaker 1: like congestion charges and offering free parking for all electric

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Speaker 1: vehicle is something that all cities should embrace, Well, all

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Speaker 1: cities shouldn't embrace probably any one solution because every city

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Speaker 1: is different. My partnership with Mike Bloomberg actually began as

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Speaker 1: an effort to implement congestion pricing is a way of

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Speaker 1: financing mass transit and Lower Manhattan. We didn't get there.

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Speaker 1: So there is resistance to ideas like congestion pricing, even

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Speaker 1: the problem was in New York. The problem with state

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Speaker 1: government in Albany that wouldn't give Mayor Bloomberg permission to

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Speaker 1: needs the money that would have been raised by congestion pricing.

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Speaker 1: I think the key thing to understand, though, is every

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Speaker 1: city has its own unique set of problems and its

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Speaker 1: own unique set of opportunities, and you need to look

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Speaker 1: and move forward. One of the things that's frankly depressing

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Speaker 1: Washington is trying to make a mayor America great by

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Speaker 1: holding onto yesterday's technologies. Cities don't have that. Luxury cities

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Speaker 1: are not competing to be the home of the next

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Speaker 1: bug equipped manufacturer. Cities are competing to be the home

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Speaker 1: of the next electric car dealership. Right Well, Carl, is

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Speaker 1: there anything that's currently going on in any particular city

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Speaker 1: that you can point to as something that is an

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Speaker 1: optimistic development that you think should serve as a model. Sure,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna point to Salt Lake City, and I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: point to Salt Lake City because it is after all,

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Speaker 1: the largest city in the most republican state in the nation,

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Speaker 1: so you can't say it's Berkeley or even New York City.

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Speaker 1: Salt Lake City has announced that it is going to

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Speaker 1: source one hundred percent of its electricity from renewables, and

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Speaker 1: Salt Lake City has the fastest growing mass transit capacity

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Speaker 1: of any large city in North America. And Salt Lake

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Speaker 1: City is doing that because the people, the residents care

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Speaker 1: about the quality of their life. They want to have

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Speaker 1: a dynamic economy. Used to be dependent on mining and

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Speaker 1: extraction industries. Now they're dependent on knowledge and invention industries.

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Speaker 1: That's the way to the future. And it's not just

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Speaker 1: Salt Lake City. The first the first city in the

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Speaker 1: United States to go on renewable was Georgetown, Texas, and

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Speaker 1: the mayor of Georgetown had to explain, folks, I'm not

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Speaker 1: doing this because I'm green. I mean, Al Gore didn't

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Speaker 1: come and take over our city. I'm doing this because

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Speaker 1: it saves money, cleaner, cheaper, and what's not the like?

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Speaker 1: All right, thanks very much. Carl Pope as a principal

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Speaker 1: advisor inside a Straight Strategies. He is also the former

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Speaker 1: executive director and chairman of the Sierra Club, and he

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Speaker 1: is the co author of a new book entitled Climate

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Speaker 1: of Hope, How Cities, businesses, and citizens Can Save the

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Speaker 1: Planet that is co authored also by former New York

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Speaker 1: City Mayor Michael Bloomberg. Michael Bloomberg is the founder and

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Speaker 1: majority owner of Bloomberg Peak. We want to take a

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Speaker 1: moment to let you know about something new from Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: Starting right now, you can use our i O s

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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com slash lens. We are broadcasting from

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Speaker 1: the future of energy some but it's all powered by

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg and New Energy Finance. And here to tell us

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Speaker 1: more about energy is Alka Lunt, the President and the

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Speaker 1: chief executive of Statenet, and he joins us here at

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Speaker 1: the conference rate to have you with us. Thanks for

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Speaker 1: coming in. Um. You know, I wonder if you could

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Speaker 1: just give people a little bit of your background because

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Speaker 1: they may not know about stating net and Norwegian Company

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Speaker 1: and the role that it plays not just in Norway

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Speaker 1: but throughout the world when it comes to energy generator transmission.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Stopping that is the National Grid

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Speaker 1: Company of Norway. We are basically running the central ridd

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Speaker 1: for the hold of the country. We have only renewable

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Speaker 1: production in Norway, so we were very happy to do that. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And that hydro power which we have enables us to

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Speaker 1: move both production from one time to the other and

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Speaker 1: do that by interconnecting our system to our neighboring countries.

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Speaker 1: So you know, one thing that people talk about with renewables,

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Speaker 1: one big problem is you can't really store it the

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Speaker 1: same way you can take oil and put it on

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Speaker 1: a tanker and float it out in the Mediterranean. Uh.

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Speaker 1: How have you solved this problem? Because you're you're sort

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Speaker 1: of touching on it but being explicitly please about how

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Speaker 1: exactly this sort of connect Those ideas are the idea

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Speaker 1: of storing renewables versus transmitting them. So hydro is a

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Speaker 1: is a great source. You can open the valve if

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Speaker 1: you want it and you need it, and you can

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Speaker 1: stop it if you don't need it. So we through

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Speaker 1: hydro reservoirs we can collect water during rainy periods and

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Speaker 1: let the water run during dry periods. So that's basically

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Speaker 1: a way of storying, and that's how we solve our

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Speaker 1: own demand because sometimes it doesn't rain also in Norway,

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Speaker 1: so we need that for our own system. But we

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Speaker 1: also have interconnected our grid to the Danish, the Dutch

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Speaker 1: and the German and going to do it to the

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Speaker 1: German and the UK grid. Through those interconnections you can

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Speaker 1: move this storage capacity we have also down to those countries.

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Speaker 1: If you look at Denmark, they've been able to install

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Speaker 1: a huge amount of wind power and are running from

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Speaker 1: time to time like sixty or seven of their demand

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Speaker 1: is covered by wind and the remaining parts would then

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Speaker 1: actually come through the interconnectors from Norway. Just to be

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Speaker 1: very clear about what this is, it sort of flips

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Speaker 1: the idea of storage on its head. It's not that

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Speaker 1: you're actually storing, and it's at the electrical current is

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Speaker 1: going somewhere at all times, but it's going to where

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Speaker 1: it need. It's needed exactly, and so it's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: storing in a way that a lot of people think

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Speaker 1: of storage, which is you put it in a box

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Speaker 1: and you hold it till later. Well, yes or no.

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Speaker 1: You can imagine that the through these interconnectors in Denmark,

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Speaker 1: sometimes the wind is so strong that they produce more

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Speaker 1: wind than they need and then they basically send that

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Speaker 1: power to Norway. And what we do is that we

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Speaker 1: then stop our turbines to produce, and it means we

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Speaker 1: store the water in our reservoirs and leave it for

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Speaker 1: the next day. And even in sometimes if prices are

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Speaker 1: really low because of the oversupply wind, we would read pump.

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Speaker 1: We would pump water from a lower level to a

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Speaker 1: higher level and could then the day after reverse it

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Speaker 1: and thereby get electricity back. So basically you do actually

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Speaker 1: store in reservoirs. But a very important part here is

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Speaker 1: that you have a market which really works, because the

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Speaker 1: market gives you the signal when should I keep the

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Speaker 1: water in the reservoir, when should they let it go?

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Speaker 1: When it is electricity from wind very cheap, and I

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Speaker 1: could get that in my system and and store it

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Speaker 1: for the next day, I wonder if you could just

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Speaker 1: speak to the issue of being a state owned company,

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Speaker 1: because obviously utilities are owned in many different forms all

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Speaker 1: over the world. How does being state owned help you?

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Speaker 1: I think it's almost in the country like you actually

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Speaker 1: should say that, but it's almost a predicacit preg with

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Speaker 1: it for our the way we have functioned or or

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Speaker 1: created our markets. We have installed a completely independent system

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Speaker 1: up Rador owning the transmission system which is start meet

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Speaker 1: and it is stayed downed. So we have a very

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Speaker 1: strong mandate to take care of security supply in Norway

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Speaker 1: at any point in time and run the system at

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Speaker 1: what they call the socio economic within socio economic view

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Speaker 1: on how we do things. And that distinguishes a little

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Speaker 1: bit from the other companies who could have specific maybe

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Speaker 1: have shareholders exactly, so we we have, I would argue,

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Speaker 1: a much broader view than the individual companies which produce

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Speaker 1: and and and connect. So do you think that the

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Speaker 1: model that you're talking about the markets that you follow

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Speaker 1: could be replicated in a uh non state owned company

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Speaker 1: or do you think that it's very specific to the

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Speaker 1: model that you currently have in Norway. No, I think

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Speaker 1: you can do it. Of course, it's not the only

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Speaker 1: way to organize the market. We have also one of

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Speaker 1: our Navory countries. We have a similar company like Startnet,

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Speaker 1: which partly owned by pension funds, and its functions although

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Speaker 1: a bit different than we do. I just want to

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Speaker 1: catch your talks on something that you own. I think

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Speaker 1: about a third of nord Pool, right, nord Pool. Just

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Speaker 1: to give you a thirty second what is nordpol. Explain

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Speaker 1: to people how that's interesting. Well, as I mentioned just

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Speaker 1: a minute ago, that the markets are extremely important in

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Speaker 1: this type of system, you need the right pricing signals.

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Speaker 1: North Pole is the power exchange where all producers have

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Speaker 1: to nominate what they're going to deliver and the market

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Speaker 1: will tell what they want to ask in. The market

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Speaker 1: will clear and give prices, and those prices give the

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Speaker 1: right signals whether we should store water or we should

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Speaker 1: we should leave the water down. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us. Truly fascinating discussion. Okay Launde is president

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Speaker 1: and chief executive as stat Net, which is Norway's power

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Speaker 1: and electric grid. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg P

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Speaker 1: and L podcast. You can subscribe and listen to interviews

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Speaker 1: at Apple pod Casts, SoundCloud or whatever podcast platform. You prefer.

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Speaker 1: I'm pim Fox. I'm on Twitter at pim Fox. I'm

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Speaker 1: on Twitter at Lisa Abramo wits one Before the podcast,

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Speaker 1: you can always catch us worldwide on Bloomberg Radio