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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, this is Justin Richmond from the Broken Record podcast.

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Speaker 1: Join me this June for a live taping of Broken

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Speaker 1: Record at the Tribeca Festival. We're all bee in conversation

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Speaker 1: with Infinity Song, a New York based soft rock band

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Speaker 1: comprised of four siblings who will also be doing a

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Speaker 1: couple of songs for us. You'll hear the artist and

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Speaker 1: a career spanning conversation about their inspirations and dynamic styles.

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Speaker 1: We'll be at the SVA Theater on June twelve at

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Speaker 1: eight thirty pm. Defund tickets, wos A tribecafilm dot com

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Speaker 1: slash Broken Record all lowercase. That's tribecafilm dot com slash

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Speaker 1: Broken Record. Hope to see there. Shirley Manson, the iconic

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Speaker 1: Scottish singer songwriter, rose to eight girl status in the

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Speaker 1: nineties as a fierce and magnetic frontwoman of Garbage. Though

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Speaker 1: her tenure with the band now spans over three decades,

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Speaker 1: Shirley was already a season lead singer when she joined

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety six. She was invited to audition for

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Speaker 1: Garbage after guitarist Steve Marker spotted her in a music

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Speaker 1: video for her previous band Angelfish. Today, Garbage is sold

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Speaker 1: over seventeen million albums worldwide, with all original members still

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Speaker 1: going strong. The band is now preparing to release their

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Speaker 1: eighth studio album, Let All That We Imagine Be the Light,

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Speaker 1: and Shirley's unmistakable voice remains as sharp and compelling as ever.

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Speaker 1: On today's episode, Lee Rose sits down with Shirley Manson

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Speaker 1: to discussed how an unexpected piece of advice from an

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Speaker 1: acting coach during her time on the Fox sci fi

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Speaker 1: series Terminator The Sarah Connor Chronicles continues to shape her

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Speaker 1: creative process. Shirley also opens up about the challenges of

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Speaker 1: communicating with her bandmates and shares a hilarious story about

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Speaker 1: meeting one of her musical heroes, Patti Smith. This is

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Speaker 1: broken record, real musicians, real conversations. This episode is brought

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Speaker 1: to you by Defender, a vehicle engineered to meet challenges

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Speaker 1: head on so you and explore with confidence. Adventure Seekers

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Speaker 1: and risk takers can explore the full Defender lineup at

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Speaker 1: land ROVERUSA dot com. Here's Leah Rose with Shirley Manson.

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Speaker 2: I've been watching and listening to a lot of interviews

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Speaker 2: that you've done over the years. And I heard you

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Speaker 2: talking about working with an acting coach, maybe after working

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Speaker 2: on Terminator, and you learned some really interesting thing or

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Speaker 2: got some really interesting insight from the acting coach. Can

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Speaker 2: you remember what she told you and how that sort

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Speaker 2: of influenced you at the time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I studied under an acting coach called Sharon Chatton in

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Speaker 4: Los Angeles, and she absolutely changed my whole life and

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Speaker 4: my relationship to my music, to my work, I guess

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Speaker 4: for one of a better term, and I think about

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Speaker 4: her almost every single day.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, she taught me so much about not just being

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Speaker 4: an art but being a human and being trying to

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Speaker 4: be in the moment, which is such a profound gift

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Speaker 4: if you are able to teach yourself to live in

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Speaker 4: the moment and not worry about tomorrow or yesterday. And

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Speaker 4: up until meeting her, I was much more fearful, I guess,

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Speaker 4: of trying to be creative, and then she just taught

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Speaker 4: me how to sort of sink into it and play

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Speaker 4: instead of plan, and that was profound. That's just one

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Speaker 4: of the very many things she taught me. But that

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Speaker 4: was a real kicker for me, is how to be

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Speaker 4: in the moment of creation and not be rigid, but

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Speaker 4: to be really fluid and just go with whatever is

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Speaker 4: coming out and investigate that and chase that rabbit and

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Speaker 4: not try and force something that perhaps was preordained.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember the first project, creative project that you

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Speaker 2: applied her advice to and did that turn out differently

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Speaker 2: for you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: My band Garbage had been on a long hiatus for

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Speaker 4: a lot of different reasons. But we had been dropped

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Speaker 4: by Entrascope Records, and my mother had been diagnosed with

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Speaker 4: a very extreme and aggressive form of dementia called Pick's disease,

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Speaker 4: which took her out of the game in like eighteen months.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 4: And then two of my really close girlfriends, one lost

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Speaker 4: her young husband and the other lost her six year

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Speaker 4: old son. And it was all during this hiatus that

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Speaker 4: I was on from the band, and that took up

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Speaker 4: a lot of my time and energy. But I also,

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Speaker 4: as you said rightly pointed out, I was on the

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Speaker 4: Sarah Connor Chronicles on the Fox Networks. It was a

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Speaker 4: big show, a big TV show. And then I started

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Speaker 4: to study with Sharon and then I got back with

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Speaker 4: the band I think in about twenty ten, and we

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Speaker 4: started work on Not Your kind of People, which was

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Speaker 4: our fifth studio record, and so I started plowing it.

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Speaker 4: Then the things I'd learned over that course of time

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Speaker 4: in my life, which was really a very difficult and

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Speaker 4: tumultuous time, And yeah, I've just gotten better at adhering

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Speaker 4: to the lessons Sharon taught me as time has passed.

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Speaker 2: Is there anything specific you can point to on the

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Speaker 2: new album that maybe is a result from that advice

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Speaker 2: from her?

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Speaker 4: Well, I immediately think of have We Met the Void? Which

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Speaker 4: was I was in the studio with Duke, the guitarist

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Speaker 4: in Garbage. It was just the two of us, and

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Speaker 4: we had been talking about a book he was reading

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Speaker 4: about witchcraft, and we sort of were chuckling together, and

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Speaker 4: I was like, let's try and write a song about that.

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Speaker 4: You know, about how women were destroyed by because they

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Speaker 4: were powerful, or they were intelligent, or they were intuitive.

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Speaker 4: They were put to death for all these reasons. That's

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Speaker 4: what I want to write about. And I went, I

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Speaker 4: hopped into the vocal booth and he played this particular

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Speaker 4: piece of music that he had written with the band,

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Speaker 4: and I was determined I was going to write about

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Speaker 4: witchcraft or witches, and instead I heard the first few

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Speaker 4: bars of the music, and I just had a picture

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Speaker 4: of myself when I was a young woman in my

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Speaker 4: early twenties. It was a situation that had happened in

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Speaker 4: real life, and I just sort of swung into it,

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Speaker 4: and this bizarre story that had occurred to me in

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Speaker 4: my life came out of nowhere. I hadn't even thought

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Speaker 4: about it in years. And that's kind of what I

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Speaker 4: mean of like just having a thread of an idea

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Speaker 4: and then it just turning left and be willing to

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Speaker 4: follow it, even though that wasn't my intention. It was

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Speaker 4: like I just realized I saw the thread, I grabbed it,

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Speaker 4: and I just followed the thread into the void. And

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Speaker 4: so that would be one of that would be a

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Speaker 4: really like sort of an example of what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that song,

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Speaker 2: and I was going to ask you how did you

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Speaker 2: get in the headspace to record that, because it's like

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Speaker 2: you're growling and it's so it's so raw and feels

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Speaker 2: a little bit primal and sinister.

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Speaker 4: Well, it is sinister. It's definitely sinister. And it was

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Speaker 4: a very dark experience. You know, when you find out

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Speaker 4: you know your partner is having another and entirely different

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Speaker 4: relationship outside of the one that you thought you had.

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Speaker 4: And so, yeah, that song.

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Speaker 2: Is very dark. I love it.

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Speaker 4: I love it too. It's oh, I love it too.

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Speaker 4: And it feels so personal, you know that. And it's

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Speaker 4: funny this sort of joy you experience when you can

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Speaker 4: throw in really personal things into a lyric, you know,

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Speaker 4: being able to name my city that felt like radical

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Speaker 4: to me, you know. And I love the line, have

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Speaker 4: you motherfuckers been seeing each other? You know? Something I've

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Speaker 4: said at the time, And it's something that you know,

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Speaker 4: I've said quite a few times since, you know, And

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Speaker 4: I think anyone who's ever been cheated on can really

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Speaker 4: relate to that line, you know, that moment when you're like,

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Speaker 4: hold on a minute, something crazy is happening here, and

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Speaker 4: it's not really what I expected to happen to me today,

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Speaker 4: you know, totally. Yeah, it's such a horrible feeling, you know,

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Speaker 4: it's just a horrible, horrible feeling.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it awful that you can still feel that too

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Speaker 2: so many years later?

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Speaker 4: But isn't it also wonderful, you know, to be still

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Speaker 4: in contact with those really raw feelings of your youth

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Speaker 4: when you were an entirely different person and you didn't

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Speaker 4: know what you do now. I think there's something really

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Speaker 4: glorious about that and exciting. You know, It's like, ah,

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Speaker 4: I remember her. I can remember what I was wearing.

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Speaker 4: I can remember you know how I wore my hair

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Speaker 4: and my makeup, and you know the bag I used

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Speaker 4: to use. And it's like a real sort of Proustian

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Speaker 4: moment right of the Madeline. It's like, ah, I like

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Speaker 4: being able to touch all my ghosts totally.

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Speaker 2: Do you ever wonder if you miss remember things? Like

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Speaker 2: if you were to actually go back and see yourself

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Speaker 2: or just be sort of like an eyewitness to your

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Speaker 2: early life, what if it's totally different. I think about

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Speaker 2: that all the time.

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Speaker 4: I know for a fact everything will be different. You know.

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Speaker 4: I know that our memories are so flawed, but I

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Speaker 4: do believe that you sort of remember the important parts

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Speaker 4: of the storyline. You know, you get it. There was

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Speaker 4: you know, a deceit that you know and you were furious,

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Speaker 4: and so you remember.

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Speaker 3: The big picture.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the details not so much, although again in this song,

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Speaker 4: I remember these crazy details because my partner lived opposite

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Speaker 4: Goudy Cathedral in Barcelona, and I can remember standing looking

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Speaker 4: at this young woman thinking, oh my god, you're having

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Speaker 4: an affair with my boyfriend, and hearing the bells of

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Speaker 4: the cathedral chime.

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean. It was so weird. It

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Speaker 3: was so weird.

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Speaker 4: But then again, maybe somebody'll say, yea, Guidi's bell stopped

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Speaker 4: working one hundred years ago, so maybe I'm completely tripping

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Speaker 4: as well. But yeah, I guess that's part of the

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Speaker 4: fun of memory. You survived it, and the details probably

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Speaker 4: don't matter that much.

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Speaker 2: Yes, what is the dynamic like when you're in the

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Speaker 2: studio with Duke and you're entering this really private, intense moment.

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Speaker 2: I know, maybe you were in a vocal booth by yourself,

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Speaker 2: but do you feel comfortable enough where you can just

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Speaker 2: totally go there with him there?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I mean I feel comfortable with the whole band, you know,

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Speaker 4: the three of them, Steve, Butch and Duke. I used

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Speaker 4: to feel very self conscious when I went into the

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Speaker 4: vocal booth, and I was not happy particularly, I felt

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Speaker 4: very isolated and judged. And now again going back to

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Speaker 4: Shan Chattan and my acting teacher, she taught me how

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Speaker 4: to switch that all off. She was like, you're not

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Speaker 4: there to serve anybody.

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Speaker 3: You're there to.

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Speaker 4: Serve your creative instinct. Whereas when I first joined the band,

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Speaker 4: because I joined the band under strange circumstances, you know,

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Speaker 4: Butch was, you know, one of the premier producers in

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Speaker 4: America in the nineties, and he had a lot of weight,

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Speaker 4: and there was so much respect, and he had this

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Speaker 4: power that I felt that I did not have. And

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Speaker 4: I also, you know, really wanted the band to be

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Speaker 4: proud of me. They had selected me to do this job.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to do the very, very best job I

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Speaker 4: could do, and as a result, I think, looking back,

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Speaker 4: as a young woman trying to prove herself, it was

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Speaker 4: difficult and I didn't necessarily enjoy the creative aspect of it.

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Speaker 4: I found it taxing, and as I said, I felt

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Speaker 4: like I was sort of being judged, and so so

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Speaker 4: a lot of the joy of creativity that I experience

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Speaker 4: now I was kind of robbed from me, not through

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Speaker 4: anybody else's fault, but my own. I hastened to add,

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Speaker 4: this was all imagined in my own mind. But now

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Speaker 4: I have no self consciousness at all. I don't care

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Speaker 4: if I make mistakes or if I'm singing out of

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Speaker 4: tune as long as I've sort of getting the idea across,

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Speaker 4: you know, Whereas back in the day, I'd really freak

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Speaker 4: out if I didn't hit a note, or I would

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Speaker 4: be scared to try something vocally that I didn't know

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Speaker 4: I could absolutely pull off with a plum. I didn't

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Speaker 4: want to fail in front of them, and so I didn't.

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Speaker 4: And now I'm like, I'm willing to try anything, and

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Speaker 4: if they like it, they like it. If they don't,

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Speaker 4: then if as long as I like it, I feel good.

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Speaker 2: What is the creative dynamic within the band? Like, now,

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Speaker 2: how do the songs come together? Is it usually the

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Speaker 2: guys go off and make tracks on their own and

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Speaker 2: then bring you in and then you write to the track,

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Speaker 2: or how do the songs get made?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 4: This record was very different from any other record we've

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Speaker 4: ever made because I had two hip surgeries, two hip replacements,

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Speaker 4: both at the beginning of the making of this record

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Speaker 4: and at the very end the dovetail of making this record,

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Speaker 4: I had another hip placement and no different hip. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 4: I'm fully bionic. It's super hot. I'm so Lindsey Wagner.

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Speaker 4: But as a result of being mechanically broken, I spent

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Speaker 4: a lot of time in bed, and I had a

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Speaker 4: lot of brain fog because I was on a lot

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Speaker 4: pain killers, and I didn't want to go into the studio.

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Speaker 4: I didn't feel I felt very vulnerable, and I was

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Speaker 4: arguably a little depressed. But I knew that if we

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Speaker 4: wasted too much time not making our next record, it

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Speaker 4: would be a decade until we got another record out.

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Speaker 4: And I was determined that wouldn't be the case. And

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Speaker 4: so I urged the band to go and work without me,

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Speaker 4: which is a first. Like usually we do everything together.

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Speaker 4: It were allway in the same room pretty much, you know,

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Speaker 4: and in this case, they went into Butcher's home studio

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Speaker 4: and they would send me musical ideas as it came

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Speaker 4: to them, and then I would work, you know, on

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Speaker 4: my belodies or my lyrics or whatnot by myself, and

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Speaker 4: that I've never done that, and it was strange, and

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Speaker 4: I do think it was great for me in one regard,

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Speaker 4: but it also unfortunately underscored for me how much of

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Speaker 4: an outsider I remain in Garbage in that, you know,

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Speaker 4: there are three men of the same age, pretty much

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Speaker 4: come from the same part of the country. They love

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Speaker 4: each other very much, and they're really tight. And the

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Speaker 4: three of them are you know, quite quiet in a

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Speaker 4: funny way and a little uncommunicative, you know, that very

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Speaker 4: sort of stiff upper Midwestern lip that you can encounter

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Speaker 4: a lot. So they don't really communicate with me creatively,

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Speaker 4: which I find as I get older harder and harder

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Speaker 4: to navigate. When I was young, I'd put in a

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Speaker 4: lot of energy into facilitating communication within the band, and

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Speaker 4: then I just got well, then I got broken. When

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Speaker 4: you can't walk, it's like, fuck everything, Fuck everyone. I'm

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Speaker 4: just trying to literally learn how to get up out

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Speaker 4: of a seat and walk across the room. And I

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Speaker 4: didn't have any energy to spend on anybody else or

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Speaker 4: anything else, and as a result, there was very little communication.

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Speaker 4: And I find that hard because I'm such a communicative person.

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Speaker 4: I gasp for contact and connection. And I feel like

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Speaker 4: me and the boys are I mean, we love each other.

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Speaker 4: We've got a great dynamic. If you came into a room,

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Speaker 4: you'd be like, oh, they're all great. They really get

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Speaker 4: along and we do and it's lovely, but creatively that

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Speaker 4: it feels to me like there's quite gulf now in

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Speaker 4: a funny way between us, which hopefully at some point

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Speaker 4: we can manage, you know better. I'm certainly more robust

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Speaker 4: now than I was three years ago, you know, when

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Speaker 4: I started upon this sort of physical period of disintegration

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Speaker 4: and rehabilitation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so are you health wise? Are you doing better now?

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Speaker 2: Where now are?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 4: Be warned, she's back.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, it was very hard. You know.

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Speaker 4: It's really changed the way I look at the world

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Speaker 4: and look at other people, and it's sort of forced

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Speaker 4: me to really try and tap into my compassion, which

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Speaker 4: I I've never been famous for my compassion. And now

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Speaker 4: I realize how much people are dealing with privately. And

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Speaker 4: I now walk down the street and I can see

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Speaker 4: people's bodies move a certain way and I'm like, Oh,

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Speaker 4: they're going to need a hit replacement, or oh their

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Speaker 4: knees fucked, or oh my god, you know this person

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Speaker 4: doesn't look well. I mean, it's just it's horrible. It's

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Speaker 4: a horrible, like sort of education I got that I

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Speaker 4: wish I hadn't. But at the same time, it's also

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Speaker 4: been quite magical in a funny way. It's taught me

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Speaker 4: to be more patient with my body. It's taught me

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Speaker 4: to try harder, focusing on tiny tiny increments, Like I'm

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Speaker 4: a big stroke person. I like, you know, I'm fast

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Speaker 4: and I'm furious.

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Speaker 3: And it taught me.

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Speaker 4: Recovery taught me to like, if you can literally walk

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Speaker 4: a centimeter, that's okay, you'll walk to tomorrow. Wow, that

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Speaker 4: was brand new for me because I have never been

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Speaker 4: that kind of person.

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Speaker 2: So do you really feel like you weren't a compassionate person?

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Speaker 2: I feel I obviously I don't know you, but I

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Speaker 2: feel like just hearing you talk and you seem very empathetic,

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Speaker 2: and you seem like you take a lot on and

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Speaker 2: you you seem compassionate.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I've always had compassion though for the big picture,

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Speaker 4: and I'm really talking more about the small picture of people, individuals,

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Speaker 4: individual interaction. I think I find it harder to tune

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Speaker 4: into my sympathy and understanding of an individual in front

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Speaker 4: of me as opposed to a cause. Oh interesting, yeah, everything,

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Speaker 4: Like I've never noticed small things when I was young.

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Speaker 4: I mean I really didn't. I didn't notice nature. Like

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Speaker 4: my father is really interested in environmental protection, and he

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Speaker 4: would take me on nature rambles, you know, and he'd

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Speaker 4: be pointing at mushrooms or the color of a leaf

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Speaker 4: or the texture of a stone, and it would bore

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Speaker 4: the shit out of me, you know. And then as

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Speaker 4: I got older, I noticed my first husband was similar.

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Speaker 4: We'd be like on a bus going into town and.

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Speaker 3: He'd be like, oh, look at the little bird on the.

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Speaker 4: Branch, and I'd be like what huh, And I'd be

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Speaker 4: in my brain, you know, thinking about God only knows what.

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Speaker 3: Now that I'm.

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Speaker 4: Older, I've we started to see the tiny thing and

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Speaker 4: I'm so blown away by it, and I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I've missed out on so much in my life by

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Speaker 4: not paying attention to any of this. You know, there's

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Speaker 4: so much beauty that I was oblivious to. So I

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Speaker 4: guess that's what I mean about, like compassion has been

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Speaker 4: sort of ignited, I think by my attention to small things.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Shirley Manson and Lea Rose.

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Speaker 2: After the Break, I saw on your last album, No

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Speaker 2: God's No Masters, you had a song called Waiting for God,

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Speaker 2: and then on the new album, you have a song

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Speaker 2: the Day that I Met God. So I was curious

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Speaker 2: how those songs in your mind, if there's any relationship

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Speaker 2: to those songs, if they have a relationship to each other,

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Speaker 2: and also, at this point in your life, what your

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Speaker 2: relationship with God is?

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Speaker 4: That might be the best question I've ever been asked

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Speaker 4: in my life. Well, first of all, yes, there is

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Speaker 4: a connection between the two songs, but I didn't realize

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Speaker 4: that at the time, and it's only you know. Since

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Speaker 4: we finished the record and I thought about no God,

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Speaker 4: No Masters, and I thought about waiting for God to

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Speaker 4: show up and its relationship to the day I met God,

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Speaker 4: I realized they are absolutely interconnected, and one of the

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Speaker 4: reasons being waiting for God.

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Speaker 3: I wrote about.

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Speaker 4: My long overdu shamefully over you awareness about black lives

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Speaker 4: in America, I mean, though arguably the world. But it

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Speaker 4: was triggered, my awareness really was triggered by the murder

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Speaker 4: of George Floyd, and it again turned me around. The

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Speaker 4: death of that man. The murder of that poor man

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Speaker 4: made me realize I had a lot of work to do.

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Speaker 4: I needed to educate myself. I was horrified by what

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Speaker 4: happened to him. It was one of the most grotesque

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Speaker 4: and a bomberable things I've ever seen, and it sent

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Speaker 4: me off on a long journey towards educating myself about colonialism,

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Speaker 4: about white supremacy, about racism, etc.

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Speaker 3: Etc.

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Speaker 4: And waiting for God was my dismay at a lot

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Speaker 4: of the systemic injustices that exist worldwide, and then coming

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Speaker 4: into making this record, as I mentioned earlier, i'd I

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Speaker 4: had so much physical problems. Yeah, for lack of a

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Speaker 4: better word, I realized that if I did not discipline

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Speaker 4: myself to think differently from the mindset I was in

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Speaker 4: when I made No God's No Masters, that I would

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Speaker 4: probably destroy myself in some way or another, or I

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Speaker 4: certainly would never recover my equilibrium both physically and emotionally.

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Speaker 4: You know, in such a state, I couldn't afford to

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Speaker 4: engage with my outrage that I'd employed. So if it

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Speaker 4: lean no Gosna Masters, I realized, like, you are in peril,

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Speaker 4: and you really need to look at the world differently,

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Speaker 4: otherwise you really will put yourself back on your heels

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Speaker 4: and possibly might never fully recover your vigor. And so,

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Speaker 4: as I mentioned, I had these two hip surgeries, and

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Speaker 4: I was taking a lot of pain medication in the first.

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Speaker 3: Few weeks of both both surgeries.

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Speaker 4: And I was kind of suffering from a really quite

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Speaker 4: extreme brain fog. When the band sent me this piece

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Speaker 4: of music, and I was on my treadmill during my

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Speaker 4: rehab learning how to walk again, and just out of

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Speaker 4: the blue, this song arrived in my head. It wasn't

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Speaker 4: premeditated or anything. It was just like I came up.

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Speaker 4: You know, the chords are so beautiful in the chorus,

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Speaker 4: and I came up with what I think is a

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Speaker 4: really beautiful melody, and these beautiful words appeared, and I

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Speaker 4: was like, this is actually a really beautiful chorus. And

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Speaker 4: I was shocked to realize that I had stumbled upon,

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Speaker 4: arguably my faith in that moment with these words. I

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Speaker 4: was like, this is something I believe in as someone

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Speaker 4: who has rejected organized religion since I was eleven years old,

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Speaker 4: and I told my dad I was no longer going

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Speaker 4: to Sunday School and I cut myself off from the

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Speaker 4: organized thinking of believing that.

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Speaker 3: In that moment of writing that.

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Speaker 4: Chorus, I was like, actually, oh my god, I've kind

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Speaker 4: of found my faith here. This is what I believe in,

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Speaker 4: This is what I would like to employ in my

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Speaker 4: life as a sort of higher power.

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Speaker 2: Can you talk about the role that religion played in

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Speaker 2: your family growing up, because it seems like that wasn't

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Speaker 2: a little thing. You telling your father that you're rejecting

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Speaker 2: organized religion. How big of a deal was that?

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Speaker 4: It was a huge deal for me as a child,

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Speaker 4: and not solely because my dad made us go to

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Speaker 4: school and we went to My parents went to the church.

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Speaker 4: I just, out of my three sisters, for whatever reason,

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Speaker 4: I was a child who really took Sunday School to heart.

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Speaker 4: I was very engaged with Jesus. I loved all the imagery.

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Speaker 4: I loved the lessons. I really believed in the Ten Commandments.

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Speaker 4: I have, actually, and I'm shamed to say this, but

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Speaker 4: I have read the New Bible from start to finish.

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Speaker 4: That's how maniacal I was. A complete It shows you

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Speaker 4: how nuts I was.

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Speaker 3: So I really was shocked.

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Speaker 4: As I started to grow up, I started to get

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Speaker 4: the sense that most people were not true believers. I

436
00:24:51,156 --> 00:24:54,436
Speaker 4: started noticing a lot of hypocrisy and it began to

437
00:24:54,476 --> 00:24:56,916
Speaker 4: really upset me. And then by the time I was

438
00:24:56,956 --> 00:24:59,836
Speaker 4: about eleven, I was just like, I'm no longer going

439
00:24:59,876 --> 00:25:01,756
Speaker 4: to the church because it's full of hypocrites and I

440
00:25:01,756 --> 00:25:03,756
Speaker 4: don't believe in what's being spidered. I think this is

441
00:25:03,756 --> 00:25:08,236
Speaker 4: a whole load of bullshit. And the minister I railed against.

442
00:25:08,396 --> 00:25:09,796
Speaker 3: I felt his ego.

443
00:25:09,956 --> 00:25:12,996
Speaker 4: As a child, I felt this ego rather than this

444
00:25:14,036 --> 00:25:16,276
Speaker 4: well I talk about the word compassion again, I wasn't

445
00:25:16,276 --> 00:25:19,836
Speaker 4: receiving his compassion. I felt instead I was watching a performance.

446
00:25:20,676 --> 00:25:20,916
Speaker 3: Yeah.

447
00:25:20,996 --> 00:25:25,436
Speaker 4: So I just rejected it. And I was furious at

448
00:25:25,476 --> 00:25:29,916
Speaker 4: being let down by Jesus. And I say that in

449
00:25:29,956 --> 00:25:32,876
Speaker 4: all sincerity. I felt really let down. I was like, Wow,

450
00:25:33,316 --> 00:25:36,596
Speaker 4: this is a horrible, horrible sham. As I've gotten older,

451
00:25:36,756 --> 00:25:41,956
Speaker 4: I see organized religion in a completely different light now.

452
00:25:42,756 --> 00:25:45,076
Speaker 4: But I was looking at it very simply as a child,

453
00:25:45,236 --> 00:25:48,156
Speaker 4: of like this was something I believed in. I've found

454
00:25:48,156 --> 00:25:50,916
Speaker 4: out a load of Bolics, and I'm furious about it,

455
00:25:50,956 --> 00:25:52,156
Speaker 4: and I reject it completely.

456
00:25:53,356 --> 00:25:58,196
Speaker 2: Where did all that passion and excitement and love that

457
00:25:58,276 --> 00:26:02,276
Speaker 2: you were, you know, giving to Jesus and giving to religion.

458
00:26:02,756 --> 00:26:05,156
Speaker 2: You were devout and you were such a good student.

459
00:26:05,596 --> 00:26:08,756
Speaker 2: Where did all that go? Once you decided religion isn't

460
00:26:08,756 --> 00:26:09,036
Speaker 2: for me?

461
00:26:10,196 --> 00:26:14,196
Speaker 4: It went into music. Primarily. I was very active in

462
00:26:14,236 --> 00:26:19,276
Speaker 4: an all female choir, which I loved and was obsessed by,

463
00:26:20,356 --> 00:26:23,436
Speaker 4: and I was a member of the school orchestra. I

464
00:26:23,516 --> 00:26:27,676
Speaker 4: played violin, piano, clarinet. You know, I was a musical person,

465
00:26:28,436 --> 00:26:31,236
Speaker 4: and I also got involved on the stage, you know,

466
00:26:31,516 --> 00:26:34,876
Speaker 4: with dramatic arts. I had an amazing teacher actually at school.

467
00:26:35,756 --> 00:26:37,516
Speaker 4: She was a bit of a miss gene Brodie type

468
00:26:37,556 --> 00:26:40,076
Speaker 4: who plucked a couple of girls, I being one of

469
00:26:40,116 --> 00:26:44,796
Speaker 4: them from her year of kids and encouraged us to

470
00:26:44,836 --> 00:26:47,156
Speaker 4: join an Edinburgh youth theater and that became it sort

471
00:26:47,156 --> 00:26:48,276
Speaker 4: of an obsession for me.

472
00:26:48,556 --> 00:26:50,596
Speaker 3: So yeah, I was so lucky.

473
00:26:50,676 --> 00:26:53,876
Speaker 4: I had amazing, amazing teachers because Scotland in the seventies

474
00:26:55,196 --> 00:27:00,156
Speaker 4: they plowed a lot of money into education and the

475
00:27:00,196 --> 00:27:02,876
Speaker 4: school that I was at was attached to a very

476
00:27:02,876 --> 00:27:06,556
Speaker 4: prestigious music school called Saint Mary's, so we had we

477
00:27:06,636 --> 00:27:08,116
Speaker 4: had a music studio.

478
00:27:08,556 --> 00:27:10,596
Speaker 3: Yes, I was. I was really spoiled.

479
00:27:10,756 --> 00:27:14,836
Speaker 4: I had an incredible education thanks to the Scottish government

480
00:27:14,876 --> 00:27:15,316
Speaker 4: at the time.

481
00:27:15,916 --> 00:27:18,596
Speaker 2: What was the rock scene like in Scotland when you

482
00:27:18,636 --> 00:27:22,116
Speaker 2: were a teenager? Were you going out and seeing bands

483
00:27:22,236 --> 00:27:25,276
Speaker 2: or were you more focused on what you were doing

484
00:27:25,276 --> 00:27:28,396
Speaker 2: with the drama class and or were you out were

485
00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:30,436
Speaker 2: you sort of like at bars and seeing shows.

486
00:27:31,676 --> 00:27:35,836
Speaker 4: Well, I didn't have any money, so I was being

487
00:27:35,876 --> 00:27:38,836
Speaker 4: punished because when at thirteen years old, I got caught smoking,

488
00:27:38,876 --> 00:27:41,436
Speaker 4: so I got no pocket money. So I couldn't actually

489
00:27:41,436 --> 00:27:43,596
Speaker 4: go to very many shows. So it's much later on

490
00:27:43,676 --> 00:27:47,116
Speaker 4: that I started going to see you know, Susie and

491
00:27:47,116 --> 00:27:50,836
Speaker 4: the Bansheese or the water Boys or the Smiths or like.

492
00:27:50,876 --> 00:27:52,716
Speaker 4: I saw a lot of amazing shows, but that was

493
00:27:52,796 --> 00:27:56,756
Speaker 4: much later on. When we were young, the rock scene

494
00:27:56,796 --> 00:28:00,796
Speaker 4: in Scotland hadn't really come to much because we didn't

495
00:28:00,836 --> 00:28:04,196
Speaker 4: have a music industry. Everything had to go through London. Yeah,

496
00:28:04,436 --> 00:28:09,636
Speaker 4: and so we had a very sort of disparate music

497
00:28:09,676 --> 00:28:12,956
Speaker 4: scene up in Scotland that started to change in the eighties.

498
00:28:13,036 --> 00:28:17,356
Speaker 4: But yeah, it wasn't it wasn't thriving, to be fair.

499
00:28:17,556 --> 00:28:19,996
Speaker 2: It was Jesus a Mary Chainer from Scotland, right.

500
00:28:20,116 --> 00:28:24,316
Speaker 4: Hell yeah they are, I mean we have We had

501
00:28:24,396 --> 00:28:28,196
Speaker 4: amazing We had amazing.

502
00:28:28,076 --> 00:28:28,676
Speaker 3: Artists, you know.

503
00:28:28,676 --> 00:28:31,956
Speaker 4: We had like the associates Jesus and Mary Chain and

504
00:28:32,036 --> 00:28:34,516
Speaker 4: my arguably one of my favorite bands of all time,

505
00:28:34,756 --> 00:28:35,636
Speaker 4: the Cocktail Twins.

506
00:28:36,076 --> 00:28:36,956
Speaker 2: Oh wow cool.

507
00:28:37,156 --> 00:28:39,836
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we claimed them as ours, you know.

508
00:28:40,356 --> 00:28:42,876
Speaker 4: But we had a lot of great punk bands, like

509
00:28:42,916 --> 00:28:46,556
Speaker 4: there was Zillows and Exploited and.

510
00:28:45,996 --> 00:28:47,036
Speaker 3: We were very lucky.

511
00:28:47,196 --> 00:28:49,156
Speaker 4: But yeah, I couldn't afford to go to any the

512
00:28:49,156 --> 00:28:50,396
Speaker 4: shows because I didn't have any money.

513
00:28:51,636 --> 00:28:55,676
Speaker 2: I was so curious about your post high school life.

514
00:28:55,836 --> 00:28:57,836
Speaker 2: I think it's around that time that you joined your

515
00:28:57,876 --> 00:29:01,036
Speaker 2: first band, but you were just sort of still living

516
00:29:01,076 --> 00:29:03,276
Speaker 2: at home but sort of floating around a little bit.

517
00:29:03,556 --> 00:29:05,636
Speaker 2: And what do you remember about that time?

518
00:29:06,876 --> 00:29:09,756
Speaker 4: Well, again, I was really spoiled because our parents basically

519
00:29:09,916 --> 00:29:13,396
Speaker 4: kept us in the family home until we basically wanted

520
00:29:13,436 --> 00:29:15,556
Speaker 4: to leave. And I didn't leave my family home until

521
00:29:15,596 --> 00:29:18,676
Speaker 4: I was about twenty three. I was it was ridiculous,

522
00:29:19,196 --> 00:29:21,036
Speaker 4: but it was because my parents were so sort of

523
00:29:21,076 --> 00:29:22,956
Speaker 4: like easy Usye, they let us come and go as

524
00:29:22,996 --> 00:29:26,396
Speaker 4: we saw fit. I mean, I was very rebellious, and

525
00:29:26,476 --> 00:29:28,956
Speaker 4: I think my parents were smart enough to realize if

526
00:29:28,996 --> 00:29:31,316
Speaker 4: we fight her, she will win.

527
00:29:33,516 --> 00:29:34,956
Speaker 2: So she has no compassion.

528
00:29:35,676 --> 00:29:37,716
Speaker 3: She has no compassion at all.

529
00:29:37,916 --> 00:29:40,396
Speaker 4: And so instead of stamping on my neck, what they

530
00:29:40,396 --> 00:29:42,356
Speaker 4: did was they just bounce back and let me be

531
00:29:42,676 --> 00:29:46,876
Speaker 4: and let me destroy basically my like my education. I

532
00:29:46,956 --> 00:29:49,476
Speaker 4: realized now, like they were just obviously like like, Okay,

533
00:29:49,516 --> 00:29:51,836
Speaker 4: we're going to let her do her thing. You know,

534
00:29:51,876 --> 00:29:54,276
Speaker 4: she's going to drive into a wall and you know,

535
00:29:54,516 --> 00:29:58,276
Speaker 4: hopefully she won't be blood too bloodied. But I failed

536
00:29:58,636 --> 00:30:01,596
Speaker 4: my schooling basically, And my dad said well, you need

537
00:30:01,596 --> 00:30:04,476
Speaker 4: to get a job. It's that simple. And so I

538
00:30:04,516 --> 00:30:07,876
Speaker 4: went and worked in a teen clothing store, which is

539
00:30:07,996 --> 00:30:11,116
Speaker 4: kind of like Forever twenty one. It was sort of

540
00:30:11,196 --> 00:30:14,036
Speaker 4: like that, were you like a cool shop girl or

541
00:30:14,236 --> 00:30:17,116
Speaker 4: I was a cool shop girl. I mean I didn't

542
00:30:17,116 --> 00:30:19,676
Speaker 4: think I was cool, but I was. And people used

543
00:30:19,716 --> 00:30:22,916
Speaker 4: to tell people even today, go, I remember you from

544
00:30:22,996 --> 00:30:23,796
Speaker 4: Miss Selfridge.

545
00:30:24,116 --> 00:30:25,916
Speaker 3: I thought you were the coolest girl.

546
00:30:25,716 --> 00:30:28,156
Speaker 4: You know. And we had like I was doing my

547
00:30:28,236 --> 00:30:32,236
Speaker 4: hair up in crazy hair styles and I worked at

548
00:30:32,276 --> 00:30:35,676
Speaker 4: the makeup station for a while and I got to

549
00:30:35,756 --> 00:30:36,796
Speaker 4: paint people's.

550
00:30:36,436 --> 00:30:37,916
Speaker 3: Faces and it was great.

551
00:30:38,236 --> 00:30:40,676
Speaker 4: Oh, but then I had a bad attitude towards some

552
00:30:40,716 --> 00:30:43,756
Speaker 4: of the customers. I got relegated to the changing room,

553
00:30:43,796 --> 00:30:46,876
Speaker 4: which I hated, as you can imagine, and then I

554
00:30:46,956 --> 00:30:49,396
Speaker 4: was so rude. I got into an altercation with the customer.

555
00:30:49,436 --> 00:30:51,716
Speaker 4: I was then relegated to the stockroom and that.

556
00:30:51,716 --> 00:30:53,956
Speaker 2: Was the end of my Wow, like, she cannot be

557
00:30:54,036 --> 00:30:54,676
Speaker 2: around people.

558
00:30:54,836 --> 00:30:55,636
Speaker 3: Yes, you know.

559
00:30:55,636 --> 00:30:58,476
Speaker 4: I'd see customers like treat the clothes poorly, throw them

560
00:30:58,476 --> 00:31:00,676
Speaker 4: on the floor of the fitting room and then walk out,

561
00:31:00,676 --> 00:31:03,116
Speaker 4: and I'd be, excuse me, you need to pick that

562
00:31:03,236 --> 00:31:05,676
Speaker 4: up and take it back to me. Here at the

563
00:31:05,676 --> 00:31:07,636
Speaker 4: station and they would throw it on my lap and

564
00:31:07,636 --> 00:31:09,556
Speaker 4: I would throw it right back at and I'd get

565
00:31:09,596 --> 00:31:13,716
Speaker 4: in trouble for that, like throw her in the back exactly,

566
00:31:13,756 --> 00:31:16,716
Speaker 4: we're putting her upstairs and yeah. So that's that's what

567
00:31:16,876 --> 00:31:20,196
Speaker 4: happened to my glorious career in miss Selfridge. But at nighttime,

568
00:31:20,236 --> 00:31:22,436
Speaker 4: I was playing in a band and I was also

569
00:31:22,476 --> 00:31:24,836
Speaker 4: a big clubber. I love to dance, so I'd go

570
00:31:24,916 --> 00:31:27,156
Speaker 4: to this club called the Hooch Couch Club, which was

571
00:31:27,156 --> 00:31:31,116
Speaker 4: my favorite club in Edinburgh, and they played incredible music

572
00:31:31,236 --> 00:31:34,116
Speaker 4: and they had amazing bands that would come and play

573
00:31:34,836 --> 00:31:38,836
Speaker 4: and yeah, and it was full of people with incredible style.

574
00:31:38,956 --> 00:31:41,316
Speaker 4: And even to this day, I'm like, that is the

575
00:31:41,316 --> 00:31:42,796
Speaker 4: coolest scene I've ever been in.

576
00:31:43,116 --> 00:31:46,356
Speaker 2: Yeah, non, And it's extra cool because back then there

577
00:31:46,396 --> 00:31:49,196
Speaker 2: wasn't the Internet, so people couldn't just like order like

578
00:31:49,316 --> 00:31:52,596
Speaker 2: random shit online that they saw somebody else wearing. It

579
00:31:52,676 --> 00:31:57,756
Speaker 2: was people actually picking pieces themselves and putting things together exactly.

580
00:31:57,916 --> 00:32:00,836
Speaker 4: And we didn't have much money, so we were really

581
00:32:00,876 --> 00:32:04,636
Speaker 4: into the vintage clothing stores, you know, so everybody looked different,

582
00:32:04,996 --> 00:32:07,476
Speaker 4: nobody looked the same, you know. Now I look at

583
00:32:07,556 --> 00:32:10,836
Speaker 4: kids and I'm like, why are you wearing white like

584
00:32:11,036 --> 00:32:14,236
Speaker 4: cut off mid drift T shirts and baggy jeans and

585
00:32:14,276 --> 00:32:16,796
Speaker 4: your hair straight like a Kardashian and you've got the

586
00:32:16,796 --> 00:32:19,756
Speaker 4: long nails like a Gardashian and you've got the same

587
00:32:19,876 --> 00:32:22,356
Speaker 4: exact same sneakers on. Like, I don't get it. I'm

588
00:32:22,356 --> 00:32:25,636
Speaker 4: like really curious. When we were young, we would die.

589
00:32:25,956 --> 00:32:28,196
Speaker 4: We'd rather die than look like someone else.

590
00:32:28,796 --> 00:32:28,996
Speaker 3: You know.

591
00:32:29,516 --> 00:32:32,516
Speaker 2: Yes, once you were in a band. In the band

592
00:32:32,676 --> 00:32:37,236
Speaker 2: was touring, and it sounds like you weren't making like

593
00:32:37,676 --> 00:32:40,516
Speaker 2: real money, but you were able to support yourself at

594
00:32:40,516 --> 00:32:41,396
Speaker 2: some point right.

595
00:32:43,036 --> 00:32:46,316
Speaker 4: Well again, Luckily for me, my parents had shoved me

596
00:32:46,356 --> 00:32:49,076
Speaker 4: out of the house, so I didn't really need that

597
00:32:49,196 --> 00:32:51,516
Speaker 4: much money. I certainly didn't make much money, but I

598
00:32:52,436 --> 00:32:53,636
Speaker 4: realized now looking.

599
00:32:53,436 --> 00:32:55,676
Speaker 3: Back, I just did it. Literally. I loved it.

600
00:32:55,876 --> 00:32:59,036
Speaker 4: I got excited by it, and I had a lot

601
00:32:59,076 --> 00:33:03,796
Speaker 4: of like tenacity, Like I sang back up with another

602
00:33:03,876 --> 00:33:05,716
Speaker 4: girl in the band that I was in called Gouby

603
00:33:05,756 --> 00:33:10,036
Speaker 4: Miss McKenzie, and she would leave recording sessions early because

604
00:33:10,076 --> 00:33:12,316
Speaker 4: she'd get tired. She'd be like, I need to go

605
00:33:12,356 --> 00:33:14,436
Speaker 4: to bed, Like I can't handle this. I would be

606
00:33:14,556 --> 00:33:18,236
Speaker 4: there all night long to sing two lines as a

607
00:33:18,276 --> 00:33:19,676
Speaker 4: backing vocalist. You know what I mean.

608
00:33:20,036 --> 00:33:21,396
Speaker 3: I just believed in it.

609
00:33:21,276 --> 00:33:22,996
Speaker 4: And I wanted to be there and wanted to be

610
00:33:23,036 --> 00:33:25,796
Speaker 4: part of it. And I think that tenacity has served

611
00:33:25,836 --> 00:33:29,596
Speaker 4: me really well throughout my whole career. Is it's just like,

612
00:33:29,796 --> 00:33:32,156
Speaker 4: I am not the girl that goes home. It's the

613
00:33:32,196 --> 00:33:34,436
Speaker 4: same girl who read the entire Bible.

614
00:33:36,156 --> 00:33:40,956
Speaker 3: Exactly. She's nuts keep away from her same girl.

615
00:33:41,756 --> 00:33:45,276
Speaker 2: Was your path a lot different from your sister's paths?

616
00:33:46,996 --> 00:33:47,916
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my god.

617
00:33:48,036 --> 00:33:51,676
Speaker 4: Yeah, we were very different people. And again I stuck

618
00:33:51,716 --> 00:33:54,596
Speaker 4: in at everything I ever did. You know, I took

619
00:33:54,676 --> 00:33:57,396
Speaker 4: everything I did seriously. I stuck in at choir, stuck

620
00:33:57,396 --> 00:33:59,196
Speaker 4: in at you theater, stuck in at bali.

621
00:33:59,356 --> 00:34:00,476
Speaker 2: You know, my.

622
00:34:00,516 --> 00:34:03,276
Speaker 4: Sisters were much less focused than I was. They were

623
00:34:03,316 --> 00:34:05,556
Speaker 4: just sort of like, yeah, maybe i'll play the piano

624
00:34:05,636 --> 00:34:07,436
Speaker 4: for a bit, but then i'll give that up and

625
00:34:07,476 --> 00:34:10,876
Speaker 4: then I'll go riding for a bit. They had less

626
00:34:10,996 --> 00:34:13,476
Speaker 4: interest in sort of the arts than I did. And

627
00:34:13,516 --> 00:34:16,156
Speaker 4: my big sister, God bless her. All she wanted to

628
00:34:16,156 --> 00:34:18,516
Speaker 4: do her whole life was be a nurse. She just

629
00:34:18,676 --> 00:34:22,396
Speaker 4: retired actually, but she's a very committed intensive care nurse

630
00:34:22,436 --> 00:34:24,116
Speaker 4: and she's a brilliant one.

631
00:34:24,316 --> 00:34:28,156
Speaker 2: Do you think being a middle child has influenced your

632
00:34:28,196 --> 00:34:31,876
Speaker 2: relationships in the way that you relate to other people,

633
00:34:31,916 --> 00:34:34,196
Speaker 2: like even in the band, does that come up the

634
00:34:34,236 --> 00:34:36,956
Speaker 2: way that you sort of view life.

635
00:34:37,636 --> 00:34:42,516
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely everything is colored by my position in the family.

636
00:34:42,956 --> 00:34:46,716
Speaker 4: And I'm not being flipped. And I actually saw article

637
00:34:46,716 --> 00:34:48,636
Speaker 4: in the BBC that they've done a study on this,

638
00:34:48,836 --> 00:34:53,996
Speaker 4: and they asked oldest children and youngest children if they

639
00:34:54,116 --> 00:34:56,996
Speaker 4: enjoyed their position in the family, and they all apparently

640
00:34:57,036 --> 00:35:00,116
Speaker 4: are very high percentage. Geneway said yes, but all the

641
00:35:00,116 --> 00:35:02,876
Speaker 4: middle children said they hated the fact that they were

642
00:35:02,916 --> 00:35:06,356
Speaker 4: the middle child. And I was one of them. Oh,

643
00:35:06,436 --> 00:35:09,116
Speaker 4: I'm beginning now in my old age to go. Actually

644
00:35:09,116 --> 00:35:10,956
Speaker 4: it was quite cool because it really twisted me. And

645
00:35:11,676 --> 00:35:14,836
Speaker 4: being twisted is really good for being an artist, So

646
00:35:14,876 --> 00:35:16,676
Speaker 4: it's okay. It all worked out in the end. But

647
00:35:17,596 --> 00:35:20,236
Speaker 4: I was miserable because I felt like I didn't enjoy

648
00:35:20,316 --> 00:35:24,156
Speaker 4: any privilege, Like my big sister got to have all

649
00:35:24,156 --> 00:35:28,996
Speaker 4: the responsibility and freedom, my little sister got all the coddling,

650
00:35:29,476 --> 00:35:35,756
Speaker 4: and I got all the second hand clothes, and it

651
00:35:35,876 --> 00:35:38,956
Speaker 4: made me insane, you know, And it also made me

652
00:35:39,156 --> 00:35:45,996
Speaker 4: hungry for love and hungry for connection, and that has

653
00:35:46,116 --> 00:35:51,196
Speaker 4: been a difficult void to fill in my life.

654
00:35:51,436 --> 00:35:53,276
Speaker 3: You know, Oh that makes.

655
00:35:53,196 --> 00:35:54,036
Speaker 2: Me so sad.

656
00:35:54,156 --> 00:35:55,436
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't feel sad.

657
00:35:55,516 --> 00:35:58,196
Speaker 4: It's been good for me and I have an amazing

658
00:35:58,276 --> 00:35:59,236
Speaker 4: husband who's.

659
00:35:58,956 --> 00:36:01,516
Speaker 3: Fixed the whole. Oh yeah.

660
00:36:01,756 --> 00:36:04,716
Speaker 4: But for so long I realized I was just I

661
00:36:04,716 --> 00:36:07,876
Speaker 4: don't know, I was just wanting to feel like somebody

662
00:36:07,956 --> 00:36:10,956
Speaker 4: saw me. I felt really invisible as a middle child.

663
00:36:11,676 --> 00:36:13,596
Speaker 2: But then when you go on to become a lead

664
00:36:13,636 --> 00:36:18,476
Speaker 2: singer of a band and you occupy that position, which

665
00:36:18,516 --> 00:36:21,956
Speaker 2: is the central position, literally with a spotlight on you,

666
00:36:21,956 --> 00:36:25,556
Speaker 2: you're considered an it girl. How does that not fill

667
00:36:26,476 --> 00:36:27,996
Speaker 2: the whole? I mean, I know it doesn't.

668
00:36:28,476 --> 00:36:30,516
Speaker 4: Well, in some ways it does fill the whole, Like

669
00:36:30,556 --> 00:36:32,956
Speaker 4: when I'm standing on stage like you say, right and

670
00:36:33,076 --> 00:36:36,356
Speaker 4: nestled in the middle of the band. They're flanking me

671
00:36:37,156 --> 00:36:39,436
Speaker 4: and there's a light on me, and I feel seen

672
00:36:39,516 --> 00:36:41,956
Speaker 4: and I feel understood. That has fixed it to a

673
00:36:41,956 --> 00:36:44,036
Speaker 4: certain degree. But of course you can't spend your whole

674
00:36:44,076 --> 00:36:47,396
Speaker 4: life doing that, and so you have to fix yourself

675
00:36:47,396 --> 00:36:50,556
Speaker 4: outside of work. And I definitely have done that. But

676
00:36:50,596 --> 00:36:53,836
Speaker 4: I do notice I love like even now, like I'll

677
00:36:53,876 --> 00:36:58,316
Speaker 4: love sitting in between two people, and I love being.

678
00:36:58,156 --> 00:36:59,156
Speaker 3: A Shirley Sandwich.

679
00:36:59,596 --> 00:37:01,716
Speaker 4: You know, it's it's sort of weird, but I like

680
00:37:01,796 --> 00:37:06,076
Speaker 4: really gravitate towards it, like wow, Yeah, it's funny. Yeah,

681
00:37:06,076 --> 00:37:07,916
Speaker 4: I'm grateful for it because I really do think it's

682
00:37:07,916 --> 00:37:09,556
Speaker 4: helped me in my career. I think it's helped me

683
00:37:09,596 --> 00:37:12,076
Speaker 4: be really good at what I do. Yeah, is because

684
00:37:12,116 --> 00:37:16,116
Speaker 4: a lot of artists, creative artists are not comfortable in

685
00:37:16,156 --> 00:37:17,196
Speaker 4: a live situation.

686
00:37:17,356 --> 00:37:20,276
Speaker 3: They don't enjoy it. They do it because they have to,

687
00:37:20,596 --> 00:37:20,956
Speaker 3: you mean.

688
00:37:20,916 --> 00:37:22,036
Speaker 2: Live at the stage performing.

689
00:37:22,076 --> 00:37:25,396
Speaker 4: Yeah, live on stage performing They don't love it. They

690
00:37:25,436 --> 00:37:28,436
Speaker 4: don't enjoy it, and I do. I feel like I

691
00:37:28,516 --> 00:37:32,356
Speaker 4: might like my most whole self on stage.

692
00:37:32,876 --> 00:37:36,116
Speaker 2: I imagine as someone who came up and was super

693
00:37:36,836 --> 00:37:41,996
Speaker 2: popular the height of your career, MTV was everything, So

694
00:37:42,036 --> 00:37:44,996
Speaker 2: there was such a strong visual component that came along

695
00:37:45,116 --> 00:37:49,236
Speaker 2: with the success. Did that visual side of it? Did

696
00:37:49,276 --> 00:37:53,276
Speaker 2: that freak you out? Or did it make you feel good?

697
00:37:54,076 --> 00:37:58,436
Speaker 4: I absolutely understood the power of video. Yeah, And I

698
00:37:58,596 --> 00:38:03,596
Speaker 4: absolutely understood the power of identity. I'd been in a band,

699
00:38:03,716 --> 00:38:07,076
Speaker 4: as I said before, for ten years before I joined Garbage,

700
00:38:07,476 --> 00:38:10,316
Speaker 4: and that band had taught me a lot about what

701
00:38:10,356 --> 00:38:13,396
Speaker 4: were your tools of the trade, so to speak. In

702
00:38:13,436 --> 00:38:17,716
Speaker 4: and so I understood that videos and the visualization of

703
00:38:17,756 --> 00:38:20,116
Speaker 4: the band were primary importance, and I put a lot

704
00:38:20,116 --> 00:38:23,356
Speaker 4: of energy into that. And I also, having been a

705
00:38:23,396 --> 00:38:27,876
Speaker 4: previous clubbing girl, I understood that what you wore was

706
00:38:27,916 --> 00:38:30,036
Speaker 4: also important, and I put a lot of weight behind

707
00:38:30,036 --> 00:38:33,716
Speaker 4: that too. And that sort of emphasis that I put

708
00:38:33,756 --> 00:38:37,476
Speaker 4: on that kind of thing was still quite unusual. It

709
00:38:37,596 --> 00:38:41,796
Speaker 4: wasn't part of course, And of course we arrived somewhat

710
00:38:41,796 --> 00:38:43,916
Speaker 4: at the tail end of grunge music, where everybody was

711
00:38:43,916 --> 00:38:47,596
Speaker 4: sort of playing glamour down. They were crushing glamour. They

712
00:38:47,636 --> 00:38:51,036
Speaker 4: were doing sort of a much more sort of low

713
00:38:51,076 --> 00:38:54,676
Speaker 4: key presentation, and I was like, I'm bringing in some

714
00:38:54,796 --> 00:38:57,956
Speaker 4: club flavors here, and I like wore the neon dresses,

715
00:38:58,036 --> 00:39:01,396
Speaker 4: and I wore I wore what I called like sort

716
00:39:01,436 --> 00:39:04,836
Speaker 4: of pop star makeup. You know, I wasn't coming out

717
00:39:04,836 --> 00:39:07,516
Speaker 4: with disheveled hair and no makeup. I came home with

718
00:39:07,556 --> 00:39:10,756
Speaker 4: a full face and glamorous.

719
00:39:10,156 --> 00:39:12,356
Speaker 3: Hair, and so I really stood out.

720
00:39:12,676 --> 00:39:14,996
Speaker 4: You know, when we came out, everybody was like, well,

721
00:39:15,036 --> 00:39:18,076
Speaker 4: who's this, you know, and so yeah, I did know

722
00:39:18,196 --> 00:39:22,276
Speaker 4: that it was a powerful tool, but unfortunately for me.

723
00:39:22,516 --> 00:39:26,556
Speaker 4: When I did start attracting a lot of attention, it

724
00:39:26,636 --> 00:39:31,036
Speaker 4: became something unpleasant for me. I didn't enjoy the attention

725
00:39:31,116 --> 00:39:33,796
Speaker 4: the way I thought I would. I didn't revel in

726
00:39:33,876 --> 00:39:36,836
Speaker 4: the attention, and it started to make me a little unhappy.

727
00:39:37,716 --> 00:39:39,996
Speaker 2: Do you know why was it different attention than you

728
00:39:39,996 --> 00:39:40,836
Speaker 2: were anticipating?

729
00:39:41,316 --> 00:39:43,356
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was different kind of attention. I felt a

730
00:39:43,436 --> 00:39:47,756
Speaker 4: lot of expectation on my shoulders to present a certain way.

731
00:39:47,796 --> 00:39:51,716
Speaker 4: And of course I'm not a particularly vain person, as

732
00:39:51,716 --> 00:39:54,236
Speaker 4: I said earlier, like I understood why I had to

733
00:39:54,276 --> 00:39:57,356
Speaker 4: present a certain way and it was important, and I

734
00:39:57,396 --> 00:39:59,316
Speaker 4: don't think it was born of vanity. I mean, maybe

735
00:39:59,356 --> 00:40:01,876
Speaker 4: people that know me better would argue that, but I

736
00:40:01,916 --> 00:40:04,276
Speaker 4: don't think so. I just don't think I'm a particularly

737
00:40:04,316 --> 00:40:07,396
Speaker 4: vain person. But I had a lot of self doubt

738
00:40:07,596 --> 00:40:12,316
Speaker 4: and low physical ast. Yeah, I didn't feel beautiful, and

739
00:40:12,396 --> 00:40:15,316
Speaker 4: now looking back, I'm like, my god, you were so beautiful,

740
00:40:15,316 --> 00:40:17,796
Speaker 4: but you didn't think you were, you know, And so

741
00:40:17,996 --> 00:40:20,996
Speaker 4: I was hard on myself and if I didn't look

742
00:40:21,156 --> 00:40:25,516
Speaker 4: like the version of myself that presented on MTV, I

743
00:40:25,556 --> 00:40:28,236
Speaker 4: felt I was falling short of the mark, and I

744
00:40:28,236 --> 00:40:30,596
Speaker 4: felt I was disappointing everybody, and I was letting the

745
00:40:30,676 --> 00:40:33,556
Speaker 4: band down, and that if I was really a good

746
00:40:34,036 --> 00:40:37,676
Speaker 4: like music personality or lead singer, I would be able

747
00:40:37,676 --> 00:40:40,836
Speaker 4: to achieve the height you know of that I was

748
00:40:41,516 --> 00:40:44,956
Speaker 4: achieving on film, I would be able to muster that

749
00:40:45,076 --> 00:40:46,116
Speaker 4: in my real life.

750
00:40:46,116 --> 00:40:46,676
Speaker 3: And I couldn't.

751
00:40:46,676 --> 00:40:49,116
Speaker 4: And therefore I felt, Oh, I'm not meant to be

752
00:40:49,196 --> 00:40:51,276
Speaker 4: doing this. I mean, I really did a number on myself.

753
00:40:51,356 --> 00:40:52,516
Speaker 4: I was like, I'm not meant to be doing this.

754
00:40:52,556 --> 00:40:55,316
Speaker 4: I'm not good enough, I'm not beautiful, stylish enough, I'm

755
00:40:55,356 --> 00:40:57,876
Speaker 4: not this, I'm not that, and it just it became

756
00:40:58,516 --> 00:40:59,996
Speaker 4: really unhealthy and horrible.

757
00:41:00,796 --> 00:41:02,916
Speaker 2: Did you have anybody back then that you could talk

758
00:41:02,956 --> 00:41:05,276
Speaker 2: to you about that, any other women who were in

759
00:41:05,316 --> 00:41:06,276
Speaker 2: a similar position.

760
00:41:07,196 --> 00:41:09,636
Speaker 4: No, I didn't, And I think that as part of

761
00:41:09,676 --> 00:41:13,076
Speaker 4: the problem is a lot of my friends back home,

762
00:41:14,036 --> 00:41:17,196
Speaker 4: for whatever reason, just didn't really want to engage with

763
00:41:17,236 --> 00:41:19,996
Speaker 4: me about my career. I think it was very difficult,

764
00:41:20,076 --> 00:41:21,996
Speaker 4: you know, I think, and this happens a lot. I

765
00:41:21,996 --> 00:41:26,636
Speaker 4: think to people who gain public success, you know, a

766
00:41:26,996 --> 00:41:30,476
Speaker 4: visibly successful career in the public eye, I think it's

767
00:41:30,516 --> 00:41:34,796
Speaker 4: hard on your friends sometimes and it disrupts the power

768
00:41:34,836 --> 00:41:40,876
Speaker 4: balance between friends where previously it's all eglitarian and then

769
00:41:41,196 --> 00:41:44,076
Speaker 4: their attitude towards you change. Is my attitude didn't change

770
00:41:44,076 --> 00:41:47,636
Speaker 4: towards them, but their attitude towards me did, and I

771
00:41:47,676 --> 00:41:51,476
Speaker 4: think they projected a lot onto me, and it was

772
00:41:51,716 --> 00:41:55,716
Speaker 4: very lonely. And I also, deliberately, and this is on me,

773
00:41:56,116 --> 00:41:59,116
Speaker 4: I diminished my own light because I felt it was

774
00:41:59,196 --> 00:42:02,916
Speaker 4: hurting the people I loved. And again I'm not saying

775
00:42:02,956 --> 00:42:06,156
Speaker 4: this was sane or healthy thinking this was a very

776
00:42:06,156 --> 00:42:10,716
Speaker 4: destructive part of my personality, but I would everything. And

777
00:42:10,756 --> 00:42:12,476
Speaker 4: then of course you grow up and you start to

778
00:42:12,476 --> 00:42:15,076
Speaker 4: resent the fact that you've diminished your success and you've

779
00:42:15,116 --> 00:42:17,516
Speaker 4: diminished the things that have happened to you, and you

780
00:42:17,596 --> 00:42:21,836
Speaker 4: haven't owned the moments that really were deserving of celebration.

781
00:42:21,956 --> 00:42:24,196
Speaker 4: You know, when you meet Madonna, you want to go

782
00:42:24,196 --> 00:42:27,556
Speaker 4: home and scream I fucking met Madonna tonight and she

783
00:42:27,676 --> 00:42:31,036
Speaker 4: told me I was amazing, and you know, you want

784
00:42:31,076 --> 00:42:32,916
Speaker 4: to scream it from the rooftops, but you keep it

785
00:42:32,916 --> 00:42:34,876
Speaker 4: to yourself because you know that your friends are not

786
00:42:34,956 --> 00:42:35,276
Speaker 4: going to.

787
00:42:35,316 --> 00:42:37,036
Speaker 3: Enjoy that particular boast.

788
00:42:37,756 --> 00:42:42,556
Speaker 4: Yes, and so it's a very complicated experience. And yeah,

789
00:42:42,556 --> 00:42:46,676
Speaker 4: I didn't know any other women in the business, yet okay,

790
00:42:47,076 --> 00:42:49,476
Speaker 4: who did what I did? And so yeah, I was

791
00:42:49,796 --> 00:42:51,356
Speaker 4: totally on my own. And of course I'm in this

792
00:42:51,476 --> 00:42:55,476
Speaker 4: band with three older men who just moved through the

793
00:42:55,476 --> 00:42:56,796
Speaker 4: world very differently from me.

794
00:42:58,516 --> 00:43:00,796
Speaker 1: One last break and we back with Shirley Manson.

795
00:43:05,316 --> 00:43:09,556
Speaker 2: I really appreciate how open you are about your in

796
00:43:09,596 --> 00:43:13,996
Speaker 2: the music industry and how reflective you are. And I

797
00:43:14,116 --> 00:43:17,756
Speaker 2: wonder does that have anything to do with you hosting

798
00:43:17,796 --> 00:43:21,636
Speaker 2: a podcast and being an interviewer. Do you think you

799
00:43:21,756 --> 00:43:25,156
Speaker 2: sort of understand the process in a different way now

800
00:43:25,236 --> 00:43:26,556
Speaker 2: after having that experience.

801
00:43:27,556 --> 00:43:30,116
Speaker 4: Well, I definitely understand the process a wee bit better

802
00:43:30,156 --> 00:43:32,836
Speaker 4: than I did. I don't think I understand it more.

803
00:43:33,076 --> 00:43:35,756
Speaker 4: If anything, I understand it less, and I'm much more

804
00:43:35,796 --> 00:43:39,916
Speaker 4: self conscious. I have a deep respect for journalists that

805
00:43:39,956 --> 00:43:43,196
Speaker 4: I speak to who I and this never shame on me,

806
00:43:43,276 --> 00:43:46,876
Speaker 4: but this never ever struck my mind. But I understand

807
00:43:46,916 --> 00:43:50,476
Speaker 4: how much work goes into interviewing somebody I had no idea.

808
00:43:51,116 --> 00:43:53,076
Speaker 4: So I have a lot more respect, I guess, for

809
00:43:53,116 --> 00:43:56,396
Speaker 4: the process, and I do try and honor it, you know,

810
00:43:56,556 --> 00:43:59,516
Speaker 4: because I, yeah, I know what the journalist has done

811
00:43:59,516 --> 00:44:04,876
Speaker 4: on the other side, But hosting a podcast was utterly terrifying,

812
00:44:04,916 --> 00:44:07,796
Speaker 4: and I really realized how out of my depth I was,

813
00:44:08,316 --> 00:44:11,596
Speaker 4: and it cosed me a little distress and stress I

814
00:44:11,596 --> 00:44:15,036
Speaker 4: felt because I wanted to honor the person I was interviewing,

815
00:44:15,116 --> 00:44:17,476
Speaker 4: and I felt like, of course I didn't want to

816
00:44:17,516 --> 00:44:19,316
Speaker 4: just ask the same old, same oen.

817
00:44:19,716 --> 00:44:20,156
Speaker 2: Totally.

818
00:44:20,796 --> 00:44:25,476
Speaker 4: Yeah, it caused me a lot of banks to never again.

819
00:44:27,836 --> 00:44:30,156
Speaker 2: I wonder if, though, there is an advantage that you

820
00:44:30,236 --> 00:44:32,756
Speaker 2: might have because you know, you're an artist talking to

821
00:44:32,796 --> 00:44:35,956
Speaker 2: other artists, and artists naturally feel a lot more comfortable

822
00:44:35,996 --> 00:44:39,436
Speaker 2: in that situation with, you know, someone who maybe can

823
00:44:39,596 --> 00:44:43,276
Speaker 2: understand just how a creative person might think or move

824
00:44:43,356 --> 00:44:46,236
Speaker 2: in the world. So that might actually be a big

825
00:44:46,236 --> 00:44:48,036
Speaker 2: advantage that you have as an interviewer.

826
00:44:49,396 --> 00:44:53,516
Speaker 4: I mean maybe, I certainly think there was no suspicion

827
00:44:53,596 --> 00:44:55,676
Speaker 4: that I had some kind of high agenda, you know,

828
00:44:55,996 --> 00:44:59,316
Speaker 4: so everybody was very relaxed and open with me. It

829
00:44:59,436 --> 00:45:01,196
Speaker 4: was me he was uptight. You know, I was the

830
00:45:01,276 --> 00:45:04,116
Speaker 4: one who was bringing a lot of stress to the equation.

831
00:45:04,396 --> 00:45:08,836
Speaker 4: But you know, there is a certain kind of understanding

832
00:45:09,236 --> 00:45:12,476
Speaker 4: with certain artists that you enjoy as a fellow artist.

833
00:45:12,556 --> 00:45:15,436
Speaker 4: You know, when you connect with an artist that really

834
00:45:16,196 --> 00:45:18,516
Speaker 4: gets you and you really get them. There is a

835
00:45:18,636 --> 00:45:21,476
Speaker 4: sort of level that you get to that I don't

836
00:45:21,476 --> 00:45:26,476
Speaker 4: believe I've ever gotten to in my life outside of music.

837
00:45:27,156 --> 00:45:29,796
Speaker 2: Is there anybody in particular who you've met over the

838
00:45:29,876 --> 00:45:33,316
Speaker 2: years who you really had like an instant connection.

839
00:45:33,036 --> 00:45:38,036
Speaker 4: With Peaches and Karen O and Alanis and Liz Fair,

840
00:45:38,076 --> 00:45:39,956
Speaker 4: you know, all the women that kind of are in

841
00:45:40,076 --> 00:45:44,796
Speaker 4: my sphere. We share a certain kind of understanding and

842
00:45:44,836 --> 00:45:48,076
Speaker 4: a trust, I guess with each other. That is very

843
00:45:48,556 --> 00:45:52,076
Speaker 4: beautiful and consider a great privilege. You know that I'm

844
00:45:52,356 --> 00:45:55,156
Speaker 4: able to communicate with these women and we have these

845
00:45:55,196 --> 00:45:58,236
Speaker 4: profound conversations that just if you don't do what we do,

846
00:45:58,356 --> 00:46:00,836
Speaker 4: you cannot hold this the same conversation.

847
00:46:01,036 --> 00:46:05,996
Speaker 2: You know what types of things come up in those conversations.

848
00:46:05,756 --> 00:46:09,116
Speaker 4: Well, that's private for that, that's private. That's the witches called.

849
00:46:09,236 --> 00:46:12,916
Speaker 4: And what goes on in the coven stays in the coven,

850
00:46:12,996 --> 00:46:15,436
Speaker 4: you know. But yeah, can you can just be really

851
00:46:15,636 --> 00:46:19,516
Speaker 4: vulnerable with one another? And yeah, we talk about our

852
00:46:19,676 --> 00:46:23,676
Speaker 4: rule as artists in the world, you know. And yes,

853
00:46:24,236 --> 00:46:26,596
Speaker 4: it's a real gift, Consider a real gift.

854
00:46:27,116 --> 00:46:29,476
Speaker 2: Do you remember any moments? I mean, now you can

855
00:46:29,516 --> 00:46:33,636
Speaker 2: look back and hopefully celebrate those moments like meeting Madonna

856
00:46:33,756 --> 00:46:36,516
Speaker 2: or other big rock star moments where you got to

857
00:46:36,556 --> 00:46:41,356
Speaker 2: meet somebody who you just idolized or really respected and

858
00:46:41,396 --> 00:46:44,596
Speaker 2: it actually went well, like it was a good experience.

859
00:46:46,156 --> 00:46:48,796
Speaker 4: All of my meetings with my heroes have gone well,

860
00:46:49,196 --> 00:46:50,196
Speaker 4: every single one.

861
00:46:50,676 --> 00:46:51,036
Speaker 2: Really.

862
00:46:52,036 --> 00:46:54,956
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've had like just magical moments.

863
00:46:54,956 --> 00:46:55,156
Speaker 4: For that.

864
00:46:55,276 --> 00:46:57,276
Speaker 3: I know myself.

865
00:46:57,996 --> 00:47:01,156
Speaker 4: No, I haven't met a single asshole and they've all

866
00:47:01,196 --> 00:47:03,996
Speaker 4: blown me away. But I will attribute some of that

867
00:47:04,076 --> 00:47:07,236
Speaker 4: to myself because I had really good taste in the

868
00:47:07,316 --> 00:47:10,876
Speaker 4: people that I choose to admire and be a pupil

869
00:47:10,916 --> 00:47:13,916
Speaker 4: of in the music industry. Like everybody that I was

870
00:47:13,956 --> 00:47:17,236
Speaker 4: obsessed with, I've met all of them.

871
00:47:18,516 --> 00:47:21,396
Speaker 2: Who's someone in particular that you can share a story

872
00:47:21,436 --> 00:47:22,596
Speaker 2: about I've.

873
00:47:23,076 --> 00:47:26,916
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, there's been so many. It feels obscene

874
00:47:26,916 --> 00:47:31,836
Speaker 4: to boast, you know, but I've just enjoyed incredible interactions.

875
00:47:31,116 --> 00:47:31,636
Speaker 3: With so many.

876
00:47:31,676 --> 00:47:34,436
Speaker 4: I mean, the funniest one, I'll tell you the funniest one. Okay,

877
00:47:34,916 --> 00:47:38,396
Speaker 4: I met Patti Smith. We were at the Montrose Jazz

878
00:47:38,476 --> 00:47:41,716
Speaker 4: Festival and she was actually opening for Garbage. This is

879
00:47:41,716 --> 00:47:44,996
Speaker 4: how ridiculous the music industry is and how tits up

880
00:47:45,036 --> 00:47:47,076
Speaker 4: it gets you know, we were the brand new thing,

881
00:47:47,156 --> 00:47:49,156
Speaker 4: so we were given this high position on the bill.

882
00:47:49,196 --> 00:47:51,396
Speaker 4: But Pat Smith is opening for us, and I was

883
00:47:51,396 --> 00:47:54,556
Speaker 4: obscene and I was embarrassed by it. But anyway, we

884
00:47:55,076 --> 00:47:57,996
Speaker 4: driving late on our bus. We get to the venue.

885
00:47:58,236 --> 00:48:02,276
Speaker 4: I am starving and I haven't eaten all day and

886
00:48:02,516 --> 00:48:05,636
Speaker 4: I get a I don't know how I remember this,

887
00:48:05,716 --> 00:48:09,556
Speaker 4: but I got a green tie curry and I I'm

888
00:48:09,636 --> 00:48:11,476
Speaker 4: tucking into it and there's a knock on the door

889
00:48:11,956 --> 00:48:14,036
Speaker 4: and I go come in. And then there's another knock

890
00:48:14,076 --> 00:48:16,236
Speaker 4: on the door and I go come in, and I'm

891
00:48:16,316 --> 00:48:18,996
Speaker 4: scoffing this food like a greedy bastard like I am.

892
00:48:19,476 --> 00:48:20,996
Speaker 4: And then there's a third knock on the door, and

893
00:48:21,036 --> 00:48:23,636
Speaker 4: I go for fox sake, and I get up off

894
00:48:23,676 --> 00:48:26,156
Speaker 4: my seat and I throw the door open. And who's

895
00:48:26,196 --> 00:48:30,356
Speaker 4: standing there but the Great Patti Smith, a serene and

896
00:48:30,476 --> 00:48:33,876
Speaker 4: goddess like as you can imagine, Yes she and very

897
00:48:33,956 --> 00:48:37,956
Speaker 4: quietly she said, I just wanted to come by because

898
00:48:37,996 --> 00:48:40,116
Speaker 4: I won't have time after my set, and I wanted

899
00:48:40,156 --> 00:48:42,636
Speaker 4: to say hi. And I'm like, oh, oh, hi, you know,

900
00:48:42,676 --> 00:48:45,836
Speaker 4: trying to be all of a sudden miss nice, you know, mismannerd.

901
00:48:47,116 --> 00:48:49,796
Speaker 4: We talk a little, and of course I'm loving to her,

902
00:48:49,876 --> 00:48:52,676
Speaker 4: and she's very graceful and elegant, and off she shuffles,

903
00:48:52,676 --> 00:48:55,356
Speaker 4: and I shut the door and I sit down and

904
00:48:55,396 --> 00:48:57,676
Speaker 4: I put my fork into my green curry and I

905
00:48:57,716 --> 00:48:59,396
Speaker 4: look up and there's a mirror right in front of me,

906
00:48:59,436 --> 00:49:01,756
Speaker 4: because I'm at my dressing table. I look up in

907
00:49:01,796 --> 00:49:08,276
Speaker 4: the mirror and there's green curry sauce all over my face, and.

908
00:49:08,156 --> 00:49:10,916
Speaker 3: I'm just like, oh my god, Oh my god.

909
00:49:11,236 --> 00:49:14,916
Speaker 4: So that is one of the funny moments. I'll never

910
00:49:14,956 --> 00:49:17,596
Speaker 4: forget that I was so humiliated and it's all on me.

911
00:49:18,356 --> 00:49:24,076
Speaker 2: So fun Is there anything else about the new album?

912
00:49:24,556 --> 00:49:26,196
Speaker 2: I want to make sure you're able to say everything

913
00:49:26,196 --> 00:49:30,116
Speaker 2: you want to say about the process or upcoming tour.

914
00:49:31,036 --> 00:49:32,436
Speaker 2: Is there anything that we didn't cover?

915
00:49:33,516 --> 00:49:35,596
Speaker 4: I think you've done an amazing job, and I'm so

916
00:49:36,076 --> 00:49:39,116
Speaker 4: old over by obviously like the amount of work you

917
00:49:39,156 --> 00:49:41,636
Speaker 4: put into this. I mean, we touched on this earlier,

918
00:49:41,716 --> 00:49:44,356
Speaker 4: but I'm just really grateful to talk to somebody like you.

919
00:49:44,356 --> 00:49:48,076
Speaker 4: You know, as if older woman in the music industry,

920
00:49:48,636 --> 00:49:53,796
Speaker 4: how people relate to you shifts, you know, yes, and

921
00:49:54,276 --> 00:49:57,756
Speaker 4: you're sort of invisible in a funny way. Yeah, So

922
00:49:57,796 --> 00:50:02,036
Speaker 4: to talk to somebody of your caliber and get to

923
00:50:02,076 --> 00:50:03,796
Speaker 4: answer really wonderful questions.

924
00:50:03,836 --> 00:50:04,756
Speaker 3: I'm very grateful for.

925
00:50:04,996 --> 00:50:07,716
Speaker 4: I don't I couldn't begin to tell you how many

926
00:50:07,796 --> 00:50:11,516
Speaker 4: interviews I've done, you know, over the last few years

927
00:50:11,556 --> 00:50:13,956
Speaker 4: where I'm thinking to myself and I have I am

928
00:50:14,036 --> 00:50:17,756
Speaker 4: not the most confident, like, sort of believing in myself

929
00:50:17,836 --> 00:50:19,436
Speaker 4: kind of person. You know. I don't know, I am

930
00:50:19,476 --> 00:50:22,156
Speaker 4: the fucking shit and you should be so thrilled to

931
00:50:22,156 --> 00:50:24,156
Speaker 4: talk to me. I'm never like that. I'm just sort

932
00:50:24,196 --> 00:50:25,916
Speaker 4: of like, oh my god, I can't believe that Rolling

933
00:50:25,916 --> 00:50:27,156
Speaker 4: Stone would want to speak to me.

934
00:50:27,236 --> 00:50:27,436
Speaker 2: You know.

935
00:50:28,276 --> 00:50:30,556
Speaker 4: I never take it for granted or anything like that.

936
00:50:30,836 --> 00:50:34,196
Speaker 4: But sometimes I'm sitting, you know, talking to journalists and

937
00:50:34,236 --> 00:50:38,556
Speaker 4: I think, is this really the level that we're at.

938
00:50:39,076 --> 00:50:42,756
Speaker 4: I'm an artist, I've been doing this for thirty years,

939
00:50:43,356 --> 00:50:46,996
Speaker 4: you know, and you're talking to me about a dress

940
00:50:47,036 --> 00:50:49,556
Speaker 4: I wore on stage. You know that you thought made

941
00:50:49,596 --> 00:50:52,076
Speaker 4: me look like a green witch? Are you fucking proud

942
00:50:52,116 --> 00:50:52,996
Speaker 4: of your mind?

943
00:50:53,636 --> 00:50:55,196
Speaker 2: You know it's a shame on them.

944
00:50:55,556 --> 00:50:57,556
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, well, you know, it's just it is what

945
00:50:57,676 --> 00:51:00,236
Speaker 4: it is, right. But as I said, I'm just really

946
00:51:00,276 --> 00:51:03,516
Speaker 4: grateful for your time and anybody talking about our work,

947
00:51:03,596 --> 00:51:06,796
Speaker 4: our new record in any context, I'm grateful for there's

948
00:51:06,796 --> 00:51:09,836
Speaker 4: so many artists out there, there's so many records, and

949
00:51:09,916 --> 00:51:12,716
Speaker 4: to be given an opportunity to just say, hey, we've

950
00:51:12,756 --> 00:51:13,676
Speaker 4: made this record.

951
00:51:13,756 --> 00:51:15,036
Speaker 3: We think it's really good.

952
00:51:15,156 --> 00:51:17,036
Speaker 2: It is really good. I sec thank you.

953
00:51:17,556 --> 00:51:19,396
Speaker 4: But we made it with a lot of love, you know,

954
00:51:19,876 --> 00:51:22,476
Speaker 4: and we have no real expectations of it, but it

955
00:51:22,516 --> 00:51:25,476
Speaker 4: has brought us a gift into the world, and I

956
00:51:25,516 --> 00:51:28,876
Speaker 4: hope it's received that way, and hopefully it's just a

957
00:51:28,916 --> 00:51:32,796
Speaker 4: part another moment in a career that will continue.

958
00:51:32,916 --> 00:51:33,716
Speaker 3: That's what I hope.

959
00:51:33,996 --> 00:51:36,756
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is going to continue. Thank you so much, Shirley.

960
00:51:36,876 --> 00:51:38,396
Speaker 2: I appreciate you so much.

961
00:51:38,836 --> 00:51:41,956
Speaker 4: I appreciate you, Leiah, and thank you. It's been really

962
00:51:42,036 --> 00:51:44,796
Speaker 4: lovely talking to you. And I'm yeah, lots of love.

963
00:51:44,836 --> 00:51:48,876
Speaker 2: Thank you, good night, bye bye bye.

964
00:51:49,836 --> 00:51:52,196
Speaker 1: An episode description, you'll find a link to a playlist

965
00:51:52,196 --> 00:51:55,236
Speaker 1: of our favorite Garbage tracks, as well as their latest album,

966
00:51:55,436 --> 00:51:58,156
Speaker 1: Let All That We Imagine Be the Light. Be sure

967
00:51:58,196 --> 00:52:00,876
Speaker 1: to check out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast

968
00:52:00,916 --> 00:52:03,716
Speaker 1: to see all of our video interviews, and be sure

969
00:52:03,756 --> 00:52:06,356
Speaker 1: to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod.

970
00:52:06,996 --> 00:52:10,196
Speaker 1: You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Red. Broken

971
00:52:10,196 --> 00:52:13,276
Speaker 1: Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing

972
00:52:13,316 --> 00:52:16,596
Speaker 1: help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is

973
00:52:16,636 --> 00:52:20,916
Speaker 1: Ben Tolliny. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.

974
00:52:21,316 --> 00:52:24,076
Speaker 1: If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider

975
00:52:24,116 --> 00:52:28,476
Speaker 1: subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription

976
00:52:28,556 --> 00:52:31,356
Speaker 1: that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four

977
00:52:31,516 --> 00:52:34,756
Speaker 1: ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple

978
00:52:34,796 --> 00:52:38,796
Speaker 1: podcast subscriptions, and if you like this show, please remember

979
00:52:38,836 --> 00:52:41,396
Speaker 1: to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app.

980
00:52:41,676 --> 00:52:44,436
Speaker 1: Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.