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Speaker 1: Native Land Pod is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership

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Speaker 1: with Reason Choice Media.

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Speaker 2: Well Come, Well Come, Well Come, Well come, well Come, Welcome, Welcome.

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Speaker 1: Home, everybody. This week's mini pod is something that Tip

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Speaker 1: brought up on our last show, which was talking about

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Speaker 1: the ninety million people who are eligible to vote in

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Speaker 1: this country but did not show up for the twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four elections. There has to be some breakdown with

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Speaker 1: how we're being seen or not, whether we can feel

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Speaker 1: comfortable participating in a process that hasn't really represented our

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Speaker 1: interests or not. And we were talking about this in

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Speaker 1: the context of d NC party, the DNC, the RNC,

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Speaker 1: who each party represents in all of the people who

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Speaker 1: are falling somewhere in between are just falling through the cracks, period. So,

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Speaker 1: given the compassion and people that we are and in

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Speaker 1: some ways the ways that we completely align with the

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Speaker 1: folks who don't feel seen by either or anything in between,

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Speaker 1: we just wanted to have a conversation about that. So

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Speaker 1: she asked, what do you believe in? And I think

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Speaker 1: this is a really good question for those of you

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Speaker 1: who watch the show, listen to the show, and for

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Speaker 1: those of you who don't I'm really intrigued, y'all, honestly

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Speaker 1: about the people who we don't hear from regularly, who

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Speaker 1: don't feel seen, who don't even want to participate in

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Speaker 1: politics because they're like, it's not for me. I don't

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Speaker 1: get it when I do try, Andrew talked about on

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Speaker 1: the show too, When I do try, the folks who

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Speaker 1: I want to win don't win. So where we go

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Speaker 1: from here, y'all?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd love the conversation around what do we believe in?

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Speaker 3: Because I think if we just start small, right, and

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Speaker 3: if you tell somebody like, hey, you live on this block,

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Speaker 3: this is your neighborhood. And if you're responsible for these

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Speaker 3: five blocks, that means everybody paying you fifty dollars a month,

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Speaker 3: and you have to be responsible for the budget. You're

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Speaker 3: responsible for how these kid all the kids in the school, like,

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Speaker 3: how are they learning. You're responsible for what businesses can

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Speaker 3: operate in this store, You're responsible for zoning what houses

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Speaker 3: can look like, and you give people a sense of

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Speaker 3: their own agency about how they can construct democracy. I

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Speaker 3: think we have to start there, and I think this

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Speaker 3: is what the listener question was asking before about, like

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Speaker 3: civics lessons about even understanding how government works, to believe

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Speaker 3: in it. And I just think before we, you know,

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Speaker 3: ask people to do another inf and thing, if we

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Speaker 3: just take a step back and start there, that might

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Speaker 3: be a better way. Angela is something you said. I

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Speaker 3: wrote it down when you said it because I thought

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Speaker 3: it was so good. You said, there's always space for

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Speaker 3: our work and not space for our needs, and I

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Speaker 3: think that is kind of where I am right now.

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Speaker 3: I'm not really interested in upholding the White Man's democracy

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Speaker 3: as much anymore, but I am interested in protecting my people.

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Speaker 3: The challenging part is those two things go hand in hand.

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Speaker 3: Should this democracy fall, my people will fall first and

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Speaker 3: suffer the most. Should something bad happen.

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Speaker 2: It will be worse for us.

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Speaker 3: How we can meet in the middle. And the thing

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Speaker 3: is when we win, the country win. When we do well,

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Speaker 3: the country does well. And I haven't figured that out.

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Speaker 3: So I'm this conversation is a bit premature for me

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Speaker 3: because I haven't even been reading like I used to.

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Speaker 3: I'm telling y'all, I am so checked out. I can't

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Speaker 3: not read anything. So I might read two or three

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Speaker 3: things in the morning, but mainly it's like philosophical stuff,

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Speaker 3: think pieces like I'm not up to speed on what's

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Speaker 3: happening everywhere. I'm just like, who gives a shit whatever?

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Speaker 3: I need a break in January. I'll be back. But

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Speaker 3: I too am searching for what it is I believe it,

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Speaker 3: so I can't even tell y'all what to believe in.

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Speaker 3: I'm searching for what I believe in, and I'm asking

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Speaker 3: the viewers who are watching this, tell me what you

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Speaker 3: believe in, because I need to hear. I need community

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Speaker 3: right now to tell me, like Timdy, you don't have

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Speaker 3: a right to build this way, is what I believe in,

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Speaker 3: because there were people who had even less than you

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Speaker 3: that believed in something and kept going. So I would

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Speaker 3: kick the question to the audience. I would love to

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Speaker 3: hear from you all, what is keeping you going? What

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Speaker 3: do you believe in?

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Speaker 2: I want to double down on that because I do

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Speaker 2: think we are where we have to be now is

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Speaker 2: in the posture of receiving, of listening, of having ears

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Speaker 2: and hearts and minds that are open, an attitude of

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Speaker 2: curiosity and not judgment, a spirit of recognizing that we

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Speaker 2: don't have the monopoly on right, and the ability to

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Speaker 2: see very clearly that every single person is by and

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Speaker 2: large self motivated, that self interested in self motivated. And

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Speaker 2: what I mean by that is is I think I

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Speaker 2: used to carry more judgment about the fact that people

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Speaker 2: are going to do just what they want to do,

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Speaker 2: nothing more. And that's not necessarily a bad thing if

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Speaker 2: we understand the place that people are coming from. In fact,

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Speaker 2: I think all of us can respect it, because we're

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Speaker 2: actually doing the same damn things in our own lives.

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Speaker 2: It just looks more altruistic because more people appear to

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Speaker 2: be served by that. But in truth, the reason why Tiffany,

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Speaker 2: what you said is true is so true that when

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Speaker 2: black people do well, the country does well is because

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Speaker 2: we and this is where the exhaustion comes in. We

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Speaker 2: oftentimes have to fight the hardest and the longest for

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Speaker 2: what it is that we get, and when we do

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Speaker 2: get it, everybody else in the pecking order has already

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Speaker 2: gotten it first. We're just and should we be in

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Speaker 2: the fight for an expansion of rights, for an expansion

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Speaker 2: of opportunity that very rarely, if ever, are you going

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Speaker 2: to see that expansion be limited just to our munity.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I don't know a policymaker out there who's

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Speaker 2: going to say that the expansion is limited to just

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Speaker 2: that group. When we fight for it, and it's one,

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Speaker 2: it is a win that everyone gets to benefit in

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Speaker 2: the largest of take affirmative action, for instance. We may

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Speaker 2: have been on the front lines of that battle, absolutely

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Speaker 2: on the front lines of that battle. We however, were

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Speaker 2: not the greatest beneficiaries of it. In fact, the greatest beneficiaries.

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Speaker 2: I ain't never seen a town hall meet and talking

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Speaker 2: about defending it. I ain't never seen at the congressional

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Speaker 2: hearing talking about how much wealth was built from that opportunity. Never,

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Speaker 2: So it is in fact true. The reason why this

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Speaker 2: tide lifts all boats is because we're at the damn

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Speaker 2: crest of it, and so it dives down. They're at

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Speaker 2: the apex, they're at the peak of it. We're the

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Speaker 2: thing that dives in first. And so I understand the

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Speaker 2: exhaustion and the reason why people want to withdraw. And

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Speaker 2: what I would ask people in return is just examine,

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Speaker 2: for a moment, as you go throughout your day, how

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Speaker 2: many other people, how many other bodies, decision making bodies,

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Speaker 2: how many entities outside of yourself are really dictating your actions.

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Speaker 2: When you're working, you're working to pay a bill to

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Speaker 2: somebody when you're at the when you're exhausted by the

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Speaker 2: fact that there's not a grocery store local and so

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Speaker 2: you're spending more gas to travel across the town just

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Speaker 2: to get to a decent grosser Consider all the people

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Speaker 2: who are making decisions about the things that you and

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Speaker 2: I do every single day outside of us. And then

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Speaker 2: the reason why Tiffany I say, don't rush back into

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Speaker 2: the news in the day of and what's happening right

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Speaker 2: now is because our focus and emphasis on the what's

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Speaker 2: happening from moment to moment extracts us from the place

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Speaker 2: where we really need to be, which is in a

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Speaker 2: place of thought and maybe in a place of imagination

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Speaker 2: and a place of curiosity, because we're only dealing with

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Speaker 2: the brass tacks. And the way that we I think,

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Speaker 2: re engage people is by allowing us together, first individually

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Speaker 2: and then collectively to dream and more dreams then beget

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Speaker 2: more beliefs, then beget more tactical things to do, then

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Speaker 2: begets more actions. And so I right now the posture

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Speaker 2: has to be I think, listening, and then I think

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Speaker 2: it has to be walking away with a much clearer

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Speaker 2: understanding of where people are and from their build an

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Speaker 2: agenda and a plan of action that gets us to free.

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Speaker 1: I think that's so good. I'm stuck on when you

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Speaker 1: said people are largely self interested and self motivated. And

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Speaker 1: I'm stuck there because you know, we also did a

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Speaker 1: mini pod on like convincing, like if you're trying to

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Speaker 1: convince or not, I'm always trying to convince, even even

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Speaker 1: be dead wrong. And I'm still going trying to convince

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Speaker 1: you to my position till I figure out I'm ry

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Speaker 1: and be like my bad. But the thing that I'm

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Speaker 1: stuck on is this idea of people being largely self

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Speaker 1: interested and self motivated. Because I was raised with the understanding,

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Speaker 1: well the belief that we are all inextricably linked, and

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about this conversation we had in Tunica, Mississippi.

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Speaker 1: The CBC Institute convence there every year, and during the

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Speaker 1: policy conference, we did a showing of Parchment, the Parchment documentary,

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Speaker 1: and the mayor in that area I'm sorry, he was

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Speaker 1: a state legislator in that area did a panel with us,

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Speaker 1: and afterwards what we talked about was industry going into

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Speaker 1: the Mississippi Delta so that people wouldn't have to work

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Speaker 1: at Parchment Prison And why were we having that conversation. Well,

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Speaker 1: this elected official was saying to us that he cannot

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Speaker 1: support the closing of this prison where you know, folks'

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Speaker 1: rights have been violated day after day, there's been death

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Speaker 1: after death, deplorable, horrible, awful, inhumane conditions. But he can't

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Speaker 1: support the closing of that because the delta is already

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Speaker 1: poor and there was nowhere for people to go. And

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Speaker 1: so you understand that, but it's like at what cost.

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Speaker 1: Like we're talking about jobs versus life or death, and

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Speaker 1: he's talking about if they're not working, then hunger then whatever.

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Speaker 1: It could also lead to death. And so there's this

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Speaker 1: hierarchy that we often are moving through through and we

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Speaker 1: flatten these conversations so much so that they're black or

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Speaker 1: white and there's no gray, and there always is gray.

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Speaker 1: But andrew to the point of imagination. There was no imagination.

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Speaker 1: It was like parchment or bust. It was like that

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Speaker 1: is the only pathway.

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Speaker 2: Imagination is a privilege.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, oh wow, imagination is a privilege. Yeah wow, yeah

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Speaker 3: it is. I just want to punctuate that context because

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Speaker 3: everybody may not be familiar with the lack of humanity

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Speaker 3: that was happening at Parchman is. If you haven't seen

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Speaker 3: a documentary is happening, Thank you is happening. I encourage

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Speaker 3: you to watch that documentary because when you have somebody

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Speaker 3: in your own community who looks like us, who saying no,

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Speaker 3: I have to keep up this institution, a black oppression

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Speaker 3: and enslavement, living in the worst possible conditions, because the

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Speaker 3: overseers will lose their job and that will lead to more.

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Speaker 3: I mean that showed you how truly.

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Speaker 2: Because us we have to eat the because the because

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Speaker 2: I have to put food on the table, I have

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Speaker 2: to pay the bills. And while I have compassion for

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Speaker 2: those people, this is the self interested piece that I mentioned,

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Speaker 2: and all of us have it. We have to eat first.

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Speaker 2: We have to eat first. I cannot feed you. We

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Speaker 2: have to eat first. Why because our body will demand it,

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Speaker 2: will it will force us to do it. This is

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Speaker 2: what Maslow's hierarchy of needs is all about. Right, food, shelter, safety, security,

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Speaker 2: You will do those things before I can ever step

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Speaker 2: outside to care for you. You will do that for

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Speaker 2: yourself first. It's so it is not only a privilege

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Speaker 2: to sort of imagine, but it is also a privilege

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Speaker 2: to be able to think outside of yourself, to have

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Speaker 2: considerations outside of yourself, and then next to yourself, your

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Speaker 2: house and home.

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Speaker 1: So it's not Imagination is absolutely a privilege. It was

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Speaker 1: chilling when you said that, But it's also necessary, Like,

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Speaker 1: there is no way for us to be a truly

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Speaker 1: liberated people without imagination. We have to believe there is

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Speaker 1: another way. We have to There's a book called how

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Speaker 1: to Get to Yes. We have to get to Yes,

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Speaker 1: and I know it is so hard when systemically you

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Speaker 1: see over and over, we see over and over there

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Speaker 1: is no other way out our freedom. I was talking

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Speaker 1: to my book editor yesterday, but our freedom is literally

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Speaker 1: the way that we view freedom as black people. When

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Speaker 1: I say we am talking about black folks, we see

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Speaker 1: it within the context of oppression. We don't see freedom

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Speaker 1: outside of I just want to live. I just want

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Speaker 1: to survive. I just want to be left alone. You know,

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Speaker 1: even in the moments where our freedom has just been

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Speaker 1: leaving us alone, that has been in the context of

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Speaker 1: the trauma that is resulting from slavery and oppression of

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Speaker 1: being a stolen people. So it's hard to talk about

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Speaker 1: imagination when our existence has been shaped through the lens

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Speaker 1: of trauma.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and the contrast to what's different is always going

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Speaker 2: to be toy by the means of what he already acts.

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Speaker 2: So your ability to think about what's different is almost

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Speaker 2: always going to be juxtaposed to what exists versus what

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Speaker 2: if we had a blank slab, what if there was

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Speaker 2: no before this? And then what might I create? Because

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Speaker 2: I might not have a five day work week, if

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Speaker 2: I were dealing from scratch, I might not the world

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Speaker 2: might not exist. That my healthcare be tied to a

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Speaker 2: job that I have, that my retirement and pension is

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Speaker 2: tied to a place where I work, versus my existence

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Speaker 2: on this earth entitles me to a certain set of things,

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Speaker 2: and then a structure gets built to then support that.

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Speaker 2: So you're so right about the hostage, but also the

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Speaker 2: imprisonment of our minds that exists and without even our knowing,

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Speaker 2: without us being conscious to the imprisonment. It was Cartagie

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Speaker 2: Woodson who says, you know, if you tell a man

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Speaker 2: to go to the back door, and if he goes

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Speaker 2: to the back door and there is no back door,

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Speaker 2: he will cut one out for its special purpose. Why,

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Speaker 2: because it's education makes it necessary. This was him framing

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Speaker 2: the black man. Right, we know to go to the

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Speaker 2: back door, and if there is no back door, we

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Speaker 2: will cut one out create that back door there. Because

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Speaker 2: our education, the way we have been taught through life,

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Speaker 2: through generation, through the ancestor, is this is our this

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Speaker 2: is our proper place. And if we have the ability,

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Speaker 2: the freedom to extricate ourselves from that and to imagine

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Speaker 2: not in juxtaposition to the conditions that we have lived in,

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Speaker 2: but in relationship to nothing except our highest hopes and

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Speaker 2: dreams for ourselves, and let it go from there. And

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Speaker 2: there's still there's still extrication that will have to be done,

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Speaker 2: even at that point, because the bonds, the blood is

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Speaker 2: so deep, the soil is it is, it's wet from

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Speaker 2: the blood of our ancestors. Even still, so it's deep,

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Speaker 2: you know, the like we talk about generational trauma. We

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Speaker 2: can't even name the thing that happened, but we're still

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Speaker 2: reeling from it, right, it's wild. Well, we so listening,

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Speaker 2: I think, is where we are, y'all.

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Speaker 1: Well, we still have to listen. We want to hear

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Speaker 1: from you all. This is so deep. We you know,

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Speaker 1: we don't have enough time to We barely scratch the surface,

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Speaker 1: but it's an ongoing conversation. All of us in our

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Speaker 1: individual chat were talking about it when we are, you know,

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Speaker 1: with our family members and friends. We're talking about it,

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Speaker 1: and we're certainly talking about it with you all and

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Speaker 1: want to continue to explore this with our Native lamppodfam.

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Speaker 1: So thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: Welcome home All us run.

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Speaker 1: Native Lampod is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership with

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Speaker 1: Reason Choice Media. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your

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Speaker 1: favorite shows,