WEBVTT - Can a machine be conscious? 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:02.920 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:08.920 It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology with 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:17.800 tech Stuff from how stuff works dot com. Hello again, everyone, 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:20.680 welcome to tech stuff. My name is Chris Polette. I'm 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.280 the tech editor here at how stuff works dot Com. 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.680 Sitting across from me, as usual, is senior writer Jonathan Strickland. 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:32.919 The light is green, the trap is clean. I'm sure 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:34.879 there's some of people listening to you who don't have 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:36.760 a ghost of an idea what you're talking about. Well, 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:39.360 considering that most of our fans also listen to stuff 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:42.320 you should know, and considering Chuck's obsession with that movie, 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:44.240 I'm pretty sure they picked up on it. Good point. 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:47.159 So what we're gonna talk about today has nothing to 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:54.880 do with ghosts. Nope, Oh thing, well done, Pialette. All right, 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:59.360 we're gonna talk about artificial consciousness, which is sort of 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:04.160 a similar concept to artificial intelligence. Yes, but it is 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:07.200 entirely different only similar. Yeah, it's kind of yeah, this 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:09.760 is this is talking about. So we wanted to talk 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:13.520 a little bit about whether or not we ever thought 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:16.720 it was going to be possible to create a conscious 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:22.760 artificial construct in some form, whether it's a computer or 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.320 a robot or whatever. Well, this's the sort of top 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:27.720 of mind for us because you've been writing a couple 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:31.080 of articles for the site along these lines, right, We've 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:33.200 been writing, or I've been writing quite a bit about 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:37.000 artificial intelligence and artificial consciousness. I even wrote a blog 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:41.040 post for Discovery about the subject as well. And um, 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:43.120 and so we thought we'd kind of talked about it 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:48.240 because it's a really interesting concept. Um, it's really difficult 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:51.560 to talk about, as it turns out, because consciousness is 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:56.480 is not a really well defined term. Yeah, from the 0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:58.760 research that I did for the podcast, in addition to 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:03.880 having read your articles. Um, it's funny because some people 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.600 think that a computer or a machine can achieve consciousness, 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.240 but it all depends on how you define consciousness, and 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:12.079 it's very difficult to do that for a human being, 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:14.520 let alone a machine. Right Exactly, if we can't, if 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:17.399 we can't define it for ourselves, how can we hope 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:21.680 to define it in some other kind of of device. 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.280 I mean, you know, when you think about it, our 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:28.440 total experience is with us, you know, that's that's as 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:30.840 far as we know that, that's the only experience we 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:34.120 have with conscious beings is uh and and really some 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.480 would argue. Some philosophers would argue the only experience each 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:41.560 of us has is with his or her own consciousness, 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.160 and that we can only extrapolate that what other people 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:49.240 experience is similar to what we experience. Now, did I 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:52.600 just blow your mind? Because it blew my mind. You 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:54.919 start thinking about that, and you're thinking, okay, well, let's 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.959 say that Chris and I are both looking at a coin, 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:02.000 and the coin is blue. As far as you know, 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:04.520 we it is what we You call it blue and 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:07.760 I call it blue. But how do I know that 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:11.200 what Chris calls blue Chris perceives the same way that 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:15.200 I perceive blue? Like wayn't know. Maybe what Chris sees 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:17.840 when he looks at a coin, I would call it red. 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:23.240 But we've arrived at a common vocabulary. We're both calling 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:25.720 it blue, and as far as we know, the other 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:29.000 person is experiencing it the same way that we ourselves 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:33.400 are experiencing it. We don't know for sure. UM. I 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:35.640 wanted to throw in this quote before we get too 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:39.800 far away from this thought because psychologist Susan Blackmore had 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:43.480 an article and a new scientist, UM, actually, it was 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:49.520 quoted by another uh researcher, igor Alexander Um but her 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:52.360 I love the quote that he had chosen from her article. 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:56.560 Um said that the trying to find the inner sensation, 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.440 that's you know her the quote there. But it's like 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:01.320 looking in a fridge to see whether the light is 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:06.119 always on right right. So so I mean, just you're 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:08.360 going by your own self diagnostic, it's like, well, it 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:11.360 must always be on since right right, because that's what 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.720 I always see. Certain certainly, there are things that we 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:18.880 can mention about. They seem to be kind of agreed 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.880 upon as being part of consciousness. Things like an inner 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:26.159 monologue and inner voice, something that is within us that 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.520 we can hear, we can rely on, We can you know, 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.320 think things out without speaking it aloud, without having any 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:36.520 outward appearance that that's going on, it's happening inside us. 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:39.719 That's part of consciousness. Uh it could you could also 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:44.800 argue that anything, any source of sensation, is part of consciousness. 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:49.800 Sensations like pain or love, or ambition or fear or 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:53.880 that's hot. I mean, you know, it's it's more than 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:57.920 it's not just physiological. There's something within the mind as 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:02.000 well that is bring this into a concept, not just 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:06.719 a you know, stimulus response. Yes, and and some people 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:10.240 will argue that a computer or a machine can figure 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:12.880 that out. It can you know, use it thermometer and go, well, 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.599 that's hot, or you know, a self diagnostic program would say, hey, 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.560 my wheel has fallen off. Therefore I shouldn't go anywhere 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:24.480 because I will hurt myself. But then the exactly that's 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:27.120 and that's a good a good way of dividing it, 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:31.039 because is the machine actually feeling anything? As a human, 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.560 we would say, we'd feel that, you know, we it's 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.400 not just that we've recognized that. We're Like, if you 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.800 cut my hand off, Chris, which I am not recommending 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.599 you do, I'm you know, I have an adversion of blood. 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:43.520 I don't want to go as lefty for the rest 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:45.800 of my life. Um, but if you were to cut 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:49.120 off my hand, chances are I would have some clues 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.279 to that other than just looking down and noticing my 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:56.360 hand was gone. It wouldn't just be that I had noted, hey, 0:05:56.400 --> 0:06:01.200 my hand is no longer there. I would be feeling pain, fear, probably, uh, 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:06.080 quite surprised. Chris has never raised a finger to me, 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:07.880 and I can't believe you would do such a thing 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:11.839 jerk so um, But at any rate, I would feel 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.400 these things. A machine if it were to lose a 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:19.000 part but be able to recognize that. We wouldn't say 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:21.520 that it felt it. We would say that it detected 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:24.200 it and then maybe even found a way to respond 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:27.360 appropriately so they could continue to function. But that's not 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:31.240 the same as feeling, which some would argue is part 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:34.760 of consciousness. For some reason, I put the image of 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:36.480 C three Po in my head after he had been 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:38.000 blown apart and he was trying to figure out where 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:42.000 the rest of him was. All right, Yes, yes, um, 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:45.560 that wasn't that great documentary a New Hope. It wasn't 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:47.919 in a New Hope. Well you know it's in Cloud City. 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:51.359 Oh you're right, yeah, because yeah he was. He was 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:54.320 just damaged a bit. Yes, actually no, he came came 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:57.080 to pardon in New Hope as well. The sad people 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:01.039 knocked me you know what. That's good point? Yes, uh, 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:05.080 C three Po, that's I don't know why fee paying. No, No, 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:09.279 he just was uh, but he did appear to feel something. 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:13.880 C three Po was definitely cowardly, wouldn't you say? Well, 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.760 he does say one of his most famous lines problem 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.360 Star Wars and you hope is I have a bad 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:27.680 feeling about this, and then there's yes, who is alive? 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:32.560 You arub So consciousness is not the only concept that's 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:38.120 difficult to define. Intelligence, as it turns out, is also tricky. Now. 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:41.320 If you think of intelligence as the ability to solve problems, 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:44.320 computers are pretty good at that. In fact, computers have 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.920 gotten I've gotten better at even learning how to solve problems. 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:52.000 Before you might argue that computers could only solve things 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:55.360 that um that someone had a programmed into it. In 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:59.520 other words, they computers knew how to do basic arithmetic 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:01.720 and that was about it. But if you gave it 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:04.760 a mathematical problem, it could work it out because it 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.720 knew the rules. Right. But we've made a lot of 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:12.080 progress in artificial intelligence to the point where computers can 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:14.680 do things now like recognized patterns. That's how you get 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:19.240 these cool cameras that have facial recognition stuftware built into them. Um, 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:23.960 they can learn, they can extrapolate. We have the computer 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:26.920 from Cornell that was able to extrapolate the basic laws 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:30.760 of physics just by observing the movements of a pendulum. 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:32.439 I was able to do that in over a little 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:35.880 over twenty four hours, which is pretty remarkable considering how 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:40.559 long it took us to get there. But um, what 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.920 what is this intelligence? Is that what we would define 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:47.720 as intelligence just the ability to solve problems? Um. I 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:53.040 have to like Marvin Minsky's definition of intelligence, um, which 0:08:53.640 --> 0:09:00.679 he compared to unexplored regions of Africa. More you learn 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:03.600 about it, the less there is of it. So in 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:06.600 other words, we defined and we we defined intelligence not 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.600 by what it is, but by what it isn't. So 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:13.080 as we find ways to allow computers to do things, 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:16.680 we have philosophers jump up and say, well, that's not intelligence. 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:21.160 For example, a computer being a human. At chess, right, 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:25.680 deep Blue Deep Blue beats Gary casper of In. Gary 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:29.520 Casperov was the the world champ chess champion at the time, 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:34.360 and he had met Deep Blue once before and emerged victorious. 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:37.079 H I think it was ninety six when he played 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:39.480 it the first time, played the computer the second time 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:42.800 in ninety seven, and in a series of six games 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:47.240 actually lost eventually. Um, ultimately Deep Blue came out the 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:50.400 victory in that one. Well, you could argue, well, this 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.760 is an example of artificial intelligence. Look a machine has 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:58.040 beaten a human at this this task. But some people 0:09:58.080 --> 0:09:59.720 were jumping up and saying, oh, well, you know, playing 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:02.440 ches us, that's not really intelligence, that's just you know, 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:05.160 it's just this kind of task thing. So well, if 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:07.679 that's not intelligence, what is it. So what you're doing 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:12.000 is you're you're slowly removing aspects that were grouped kind 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:15.800 of a nomen in this weird, vague, anomalous form under 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.760 the term intelligence, until intelligence is meaning fewer and fewer things, 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:25.160 until eventually the word itself maybebe meaningless as as far 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:30.120 as it applies to machines. So we've got we've established 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.920 that intelligence is hard to define, Consciousness is hard to define. 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:39.400 We still need to get to can machines have these 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.160 things whatever they may be defined as? Would a machine 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:48.400 be able to possess this? Um? I'm gonna let you 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:51.800 answer this one because I know, I know you're the expert, 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:55.080 and I hate to get in your way. Well, um, 0:10:55.120 --> 0:11:03.120 and uh, er um, maybe no. Here here's the thing. 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:06.640 It's without being able to define it in ourselves, it's 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.720 really hard to say how would we imbue that into 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:14.120 a machine? Yeah? Well, I mean, frankly, depending on your definitions, 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:18.160 they've already achieved consciousness, because I mean some people are 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:22.319 are a lot more maybe lenient. I don't know. I 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.560 think I think some people may have very very very 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:29.240 basic definitions of intelligence and consciousness, and to them it 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:34.520 means perhaps uh, problem solving and perhaps some form of 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.320 self diagnostic And if if that's all it takes for 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:40.480 you to hit the definition of artificial intelligence and consciousness, 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.680 sure we have devices that can do that. We do 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:45.720 not have a lot of devices that can do things 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:49.360 like adapt to a new situation. They can, they can 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:52.080 possibly you know, and when I'm talking about a new situation, 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:54.880 I'm talking about totally new, not just like Okay, well 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.680 this this robot can um identify obstacles in its path 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.120 and chart and alter the pathway to get to its destination. 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:05.360 There we have robots that can do that. Um, I'm 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.400 talking about putting it into a totally new situation. So 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.640 you put this robot that normally can just find its 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:13.240 way from one point to the next, and give it 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:16.760 some other sort of task that has nothing to do 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.440 with that. You know, while the robot isn't programmed to 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.800 deal with that situation unless you have built in some 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:26.160 sort of learning program where it can look at a 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:29.439 totally new task, a totally new situation and adapt to it. 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:32.840 I don't know that you could truly call it intelligent 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.800 in the way that I think most people envision when 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:38.280 they think of the science fiction version of an artificially 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:41.400 intelligent robot or machine. Yes, so you can take a 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:43.599 robot to the movies, but you can't put it in 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.199 front of the concession counters say I'm sorry, we're out 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.040 of diet Dr Pepper. What else would you like and 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:53.520 have it actually make an informed, conscious decision. First second 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:56.319 choice would be no machine and its right mind would 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.600 ever ask for diet Dr Pepper in the first place. 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:02.760 So your scenario is just laughable. But well, you know, 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.600 I'm trying. These are difficult philosophical questions. Yes they are. 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.560 These are not These are not These aren't pat answers 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:12.839 that we're trying to give either. These are Um let's 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.440 think about what, well, how would we even recognize if 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:22.040 a machine had consciousness or intelligence? Yeah? See, it it 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:26.480 all goes Yeah, it's right. I mean, like, if you 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.160 ask it a question and it responds, does that mean 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:31.080 that it was intelligent or does that just mean it 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:34.880 had an excellent database from which it could pull a response. Yeah. Yeah, 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:38.960 Now I'm actually going back to Igor Alexander, who by 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.760 the way is the emeritus professor and Senior Investigator in 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:46.120 Neural Systems and Imperial College in London. UM. He's got 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:51.240 five axioms that helped define that, he say. He says 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:56.560 defined consciousness UM, and that is a sense of place, imagination, 0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:01.600 directed attention, planning and decision and emotion. And so basically, 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:05.040 you create a representation of a scenario in your head. 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:06.760 You can think about it the way it was in 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:08.120 the past, you can think about it in the way 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:10.800 it will be in the future. And that is basically 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:14.040 more or less in a nutshell and an oversimplified fashion, 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:18.120 done by me your consciousness. And he said that basically 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:24.280 a computer probably could be programmed to do that UM 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:28.000 in some fashion. I just the idea of actually accomplishing 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.600 that is sort of I don't know beyond me how 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.800 you would actually accomplish that. UM. One person who is trying, however, 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:39.240 UM is somebody who mentioned in his article UH scientists 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:42.440 at the Technical University of Denmark named Running Codroll, who 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:46.120 is looking at human and animal brains and the neurochemical 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.320 interactions that take place inside the brain, and he's trying 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:53.360 to when he identifies these reactions in a brain, he 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.040 tries to replicate that on a computer to see if 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.920 he can find out where consciousness is and make it 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.760 happen on a on a machine, which is kind of 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:07.560 a weird I mean, that's that's so scientific that you know, 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:11.360 it's a monumental task. I mean, we've got, for example, 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.080 there's the there's the Blue Brain Project which is in 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:16.600 Europe now, the Blue Brain Project. Their goal is not 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:22.200 to create an artificially intelligent or conscious uh entity, That's 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:25.160 not their goal. What their goal is is to create 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:29.760 a synthetic model of the human brain so that neuroscientists 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:34.880 and neuro neurologists can can find new ways of treating 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.240 the human brain for you know, various diseases or conditions, 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.040 that kind of thing without ever having to you know, 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.080 get into a human's brain. You know. The idea is 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:47.400 that you could simulate these things and then see how 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:51.200 the brain might respond to specific kinds of treatment, because 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:55.400 again you're using a simulation of the human brain. Some people, um, 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:58.640 I read an article in the Daily Mail, which are 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:02.040 friends over the UK. Maybe giggling right now. But in 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:05.600 the Daily Mail there was an article written where the 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:09.000 authors seemed to take the leap of if you were 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.400 to simulate a human brain with all the connections and 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:17.800 and uh the abilities therein, would you then give birth 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:24.480 to an artificially intelligent, artificially conscious entity. Uh. The scientists 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.680 there say that's probably not gonna happen. It's just way 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:31.720 too complicated. Um. They're just trying to create, uh, like 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:36.640 I said, a simulation, not not recreate the brain itself. Um. 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:39.240 And they point out that the brain is incredibly complex. 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:44.840 You're talking about trillions of of neurons, and to try 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.720 and simulate that in a in a meaningful way is 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:50.600 would require so much computing power that it's it's really 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:53.960 hard to even conceive of. I mean, yeah, we've got 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.440 computers out there that are really powerful, but you'd have 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:01.200 to design very specific software for those computers to run 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:04.760 in order to even come close to simulating what goes 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.280 on in the human brain. So uh, now, this this 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:12.440 doesn't mean that people haven't tried to create machines or 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:16.560 or programs that mimic humans in some way. I mean, 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:20.280 the whole concept of the touring test is The Touring 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.719 test is a test that that when you give it 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.960 to a machine, when a machine passes the Touring test, 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:32.119 when humans are not able to determine reliably whether it 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.440 was a machine or a human taking the test. Yes, 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:41.400 the name for Alan Touring, the famous British computer computer scientist. Yes. 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:43.800 So the idea here is that let's say that you 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.720 have a series of questions that that you would pose 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:51.240 a an unknown respondent, and then you get the response 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:53.600 responses back. At the end of the test, you would 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:55.480 be asked, all right, well do you think that was 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:57.159 a person or do you think that was a computer? 0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:59.800 And you would give your response, and if you were 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:04.080 unable to determine that it was a computer better than chance, 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:08.200 and usually significantly better than chance, uh, then you could 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:11.160 say that the computer passes the Touring test. However, this 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:16.000 does not necessarily mean that the program or machine or 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.800 whatever is actually intelligent. In fact, Touring himself said that 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:23.080 that was not really a definition of intelligence. He said, 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:27.719 it's possible that a computer that you might think of 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:31.639 as intelligent because it is capable of responding to new stimuli, 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:37.320 that's capable of of solving problems, an intelligent computer might 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:41.200 fail the touring test because it wasn't designed to give responses. 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:44.679 So so you can have an intelligent computer that fails 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.680 the touring test right on the same by the same token, 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:49.960 you can have a computer that passes the touring test, 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:52.800 but does so because it has such a huge database 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:57.399 from which it can draw responses that it seems like 0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:59.840 it's far too sophisticated for it to be a computer program. 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.920 It's still not being intelligent. And there's a an interesting 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:10.680 problem that um that another uh scientists suggested, um cirl 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:13.520 I believe it was who suggested the Chinese room problem. 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.040 Have you heard of this? I believe so, but refresh 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:18.840 my memory. Alright, So here's the Chinese room problem. This 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:23.000 is this is comparing a humans experience with let's say 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:27.080 a machine's experience. I could pass the tourin test. The 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:30.520 problem is that let's say, UM, let's say I'm transported 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:33.560 to China. I'm putting into a little room in China, 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:37.280 and there are two slots in this room. Through one slot, 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:41.800 I get a little card that has a Chinese figure 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:46.080 drawn on it alphabe figure from the alphabet and my 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:50.520 character and I I UM look through a series of tables, 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:53.040 and I see that there is a particular response that 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:57.119 I should UM draw that based upon this figure that 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.720 I've seen. So I draw the approa brit figure, and 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:04.359 then I slide it out of the um the other slot. 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.600 Now I've given the correct response, but I have no 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:11.080 comprehension of what it is I have just done. All 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:13.480 I know is I have one card, and I've drawn 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.880 a second card and I've given it back. That's the 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:22.040 the the challenge of a machine passing the touring test 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:25.480 but still not being intelligent. The machines responding the correct 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:29.400 way but has no actual comprehension of what it's doing. Now, 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:32.679 one UM criticism you can have of this problem is 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.280 that this is just taking into account one part of 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:39.120 the machine. If you think of the data tables as 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:41.520 part of the machine, if you think of the slots 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:43.159 as part of the machine, if you think of the 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:46.000 whole system as part of the machine, then you could say, well, 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:50.919 now it's a little fuzzy. Maybe the machine is intelligent. 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:52.919 It's just that this one part of the machine, the 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:56.720 machine that's doing this one section itself, is not intelligent. 0:20:56.760 --> 0:21:00.720 But that you can't say the whole system is unintelligent. 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:04.879 That's the Chinese problem, and the logical response to the 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:07.520 Chinese problem what is called the logical response, and then 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:13.840 you're eight. Unfortunately, our consciousness is don't always operate logically? 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:19.240 No always? Are you talking hardly? Ever? Now, um, I've 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:23.639 got an interesting little conversation to to read to you. Okay, okay. 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:27.800 This is a conversation between um, Well, have you heard 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:32.000 of Perry Perry p A R R Y. It's one 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:37.720 of the earliest artificially intelligent programs designed. Um, so this 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:40.040 is this was one of those tests that was done 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:43.800 where you know, you're familiar with the various artificial intelligent 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:47.200 UH programs where you type in a question and the 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:50.240 computer responds to you and then you type back a 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:52.800 smarter child, right, this is like going back to the 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:57.760 touring test type stuff. Well, this Perry was written by 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:01.879 a Stanford University psychiatrist named as Colby, and it was 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:06.280 a program designed to respond as if it were a 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:10.920 patient suffering paranoia. And the idea here was that under 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:14.080 the parameters of a patient suffering from paranoia, it was 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:19.639 actually fairly um um convincing. Now, granted that's a narrow 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:21.840 set of parameters, that's not the whole human experience. We 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:24.520 talked about this once before, I think in artificial intelligence. 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:30.240 So here's here's an example. Uh, why are you in 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:34.840 the hospital. I shouldn't be here. Who brought you here? 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:38.320 The police? What trouble did you have with the police? 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:42.360 Cops don't do their job? What did they do? Instead? 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:46.280 Cops arrest the wrong people? They arrest the right ones. 0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:51.080 Sometimes the law should get those Italian crooks? Are you Italian? 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:54.440 My background is British, but I was born in this country. 0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:57.120 Do you know any Italian crooks? I tried to avoid 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:00.600 the underworld that was, you know, so it's really kind 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:02.879 of gone off the reels there. Yeah, but still you 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:05.879 you would if you were just looking at that as text. 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:07.359 You know, you don't have any tone, you don't have 0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:12.440 any inflection or anything. It it reads like a paranoid patient. 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:16.399 It doesn't. It's not. It's close enough to what the 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:19.840 questions are that you could conceivably think, all right, well, 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:22.440 that that could possibly be a person on the other 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:25.280 end of this, not a computer program. Yes, clearly I'm 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:30.280 not a psychologist, not even remotely. But and I think 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:32.440 though that when I was listening to you say that 0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:35.639 I was feeding my own I know this, you know, 0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:38.720 my own consciousness, that that was a computer. On the 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:41.879 other end, it began to seem very random to me. 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:45.400 If I did not know if I was a computer, 0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:48.000 then I might if I had perhaps presented you with 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:50.840 a series of conversations, some of which were from real 0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:53.240 patients and some of which were from Perry, you might 0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:55.879 have had more of a challenge. So that was not 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:58.400 very scientific on my part. Yeah, but no, I mean 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:00.560