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Speaker 1: Hey, Hey, ba.

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Speaker 2: Fam, Welcome back to Brown Ambition. I have a very

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Speaker 2: very special guest in the studio with me today, someone

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Speaker 2: who I admire and respect and had the pleasure of

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Speaker 2: getting to meet in person. It's not every day you

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Speaker 2: get to meet someone whose words have meant a lot

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Speaker 2: to you and whose career has inspired you.

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Speaker 3: And then you get to be at.

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Speaker 2: A conference and walk into a room that you didn't

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Speaker 2: plan to be in and there they are on stage.

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Speaker 2: Then they tell you their story, then they make you cry,

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Speaker 2: and then they are gracious enough to say yes, Lee,

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Speaker 2: come on my podcast, and they answer yes. The guest

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Speaker 2: today is Pulitzer Prize an Emmy Award winning journalist, author,

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Speaker 2: and MSNBC contributor Trimaine Lee, who is known for his

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Speaker 2: searing reporting that covers the intersection of race, justice and democracy. Today,

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Speaker 2: he's the host of MSNBC's Into America podcast. Please go

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Speaker 2: check it out. You're listening to Brown Ambition, You're gonna

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Speaker 2: love it. Go check out to America. He has earned

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Speaker 2: a Webby Award for Signal Awards. If you're watching on YouTube,

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Speaker 2: you can see them for yourself. The man is just

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Speaker 2: covered in gold and from being the first national journalist,

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Speaker 2: to report on the tragic Trayvon Martin case, to leading

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Speaker 2: groundbreaking coverage of ferguson, the Tulsa race massacre, police violence,

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Speaker 2: and so much more. Lee really has become a defining

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Speaker 2: voice in political and cultural storytelling.

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Speaker 3: But he's here to.

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Speaker 2: Talk to us about Brown Ambition. Yeah, so what's he

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Speaker 2: doing on a business and finance show? Well, his new

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Speaker 2: book is called A Thousand Ways to Die And this

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Speaker 2: book is I mean, I think you could have titled it.

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Speaker 2: This book is a thousand times more difficult to read

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Speaker 2: than any other book, but it's so worth it an

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Speaker 2: incredible It's more than a story of the way that

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Speaker 2: gun violence has ricocheted through Black American life through generation centuries.

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Speaker 2: It's also a personal account of Trimaine's journey through understanding

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Speaker 2: his own family's relationship to gun violence. And the book,

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Speaker 2: you know, almost didn't even make it to our shelves.

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Speaker 2: So I want to welcome try Maine. I want to

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Speaker 2: get into you know, what the book is all about,

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Speaker 2: and hopefully a little about your career. But first and foremost,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining me on Brown Ambition.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Mandy. It's been great. And of course I

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Speaker 1: have a tricky name is Tremaine, just to just to

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Speaker 1: make sure everyone to hear and it not try main

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Speaker 1: about that.

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Speaker 3: Let me clean it up.

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Speaker 1: Great, listen, it's my life's it's my life's burden. I

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Speaker 1: had his name of the why and it throws everyone else.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, congratulations the book and all of the success.

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Speaker 2: But this book almost didn't even make it to our shelves.

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Speaker 2: And you open up the book with like a really

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Speaker 2: chilling anecdote about you know, after you know, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to date you, but maybe decades of covering violence

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Speaker 2: in our communities as a journalist across the country, how

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Speaker 2: you ended up having more than a health scare of

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Speaker 2: your own. Can you talk a little bit about where

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Speaker 2: you were at in the book when that happened and

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Speaker 2: what actually took place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So, in twenty fifteen, I got this book deal

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Speaker 1: to write a book about the true cost of gun

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Speaker 1: violence in terms of actual dollars, and I was going

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Speaker 1: to use that as a kind of pill in the

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Speaker 1: apple sauce to talk about the cost that families and

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Speaker 1: communities pay every single day. And I was two years

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Speaker 1: into writing that book when I suffered at the age

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Speaker 1: of thirty eight, a heart attack, a widow maker. It's

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Speaker 1: like the worst kind of heart attack. And it really

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Speaker 1: not only stopped me in my tracks, it stopped the

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Speaker 1: writing of the book for a moment, but it really

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Speaker 1: forced me to be introspective in a way that even

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Speaker 1: for a journalist who's covered trauma, who's covered death, who's

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Speaker 1: covered the myriad ways in which these forces weigh on

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Speaker 1: black people, that I had to reconsider how I was

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Speaker 1: experiencing trauma and violence and all those things. So they

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Speaker 1: came out of nowhere. It shook me to my core

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Speaker 1: and that there's nothing like facing your own mortality, especially

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Speaker 1: at thirty eight, with no warning signs, no previous markers,

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Speaker 1: no family history. Yeah, it's stopped me almost dead at

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Speaker 1: my tracks.

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Speaker 2: And you also, you know you write about I think

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Speaker 2: one of the beautiful things about the book is how

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Speaker 2: you sort of anchor it. Not that you're speaking directly

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Speaker 2: to your daughter Nola, who is how old she's in

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Speaker 2: middle school? Now?

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Speaker 1: She's thirteen now, so she's a big girl. Now is thirteen?

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Speaker 3: So what she's really like the anchor?

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Speaker 2: You know, you're writing it sort of you're writing the book,

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Speaker 2: or at least the reason the book sort of shifts

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Speaker 2: is because she, like most like five or six year

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Speaker 2: olds do, they ask these questions that sort of and

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Speaker 2: they ask the questions and you give them an answer,

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Speaker 2: they're not satisfied. And I have almost six year old

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Speaker 2: and every day he's like, but why, but why, but

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Speaker 2: digging deeper. And so I really felt it when she's

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Speaker 2: asking me, why did this happen to you? And at

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Speaker 2: that time the book kind of start, It stops being

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Speaker 2: the million dollar bullet and it starts to evolve into

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Speaker 2: the book that it's become. Had you planned to go

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Speaker 2: back into your family history and like really like unpack

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Speaker 2: the way that gun violence had peppered your family's history

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Speaker 2: before that moment, And.

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Speaker 1: In some ways you're right, the original the original conception

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Speaker 1: with million dollar bullets, that the true costs, like the

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Speaker 1: actual dollar costs. My heart attack forced me to engage

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Speaker 1: with this idea of violence and how I was carrying it.

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Speaker 1: But what really sparked this change. As I was getting

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Speaker 1: physically healthy, mentally and emotionally healthy recovering from this heart attack,

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Speaker 1: little Nola then not so little Nola anymore, but little

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Speaker 1: Nola five turning six, was asking me, Daddy, how and why,

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Speaker 1: And I really wanted to be honest and truthful with her,

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Speaker 1: which forced me to be honest and truthful with myself.

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Speaker 1: You know, for a decade at that point, I've been

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Speaker 1: telling stories of black death and survival and never truly

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Speaker 1: unpacking what it was that I was carrying the stories

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Speaker 1: of so much black death, And in trying to answer her,

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Speaker 1: it forced me to take a direction in the book

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Speaker 1: that I hadn't necessarily planned on taking. And so originally

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Speaker 1: I was going to talk about my grandfather's killing. My

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Speaker 1: grandfather was murdered in nineteen seventy six, so I planned

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Speaker 1: on touching on that as a way of saying that,

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Speaker 1: you know, even your friendly neighborhood reporter, even the author

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Speaker 1: of this book, hasn't been immune from the pangs of

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Speaker 1: gun violence. But once I was trying to like answer

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Speaker 1: Nola's question and dig digging myself, it forced a kind

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Speaker 1: of refocusing of what this book truly was, and it

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Speaker 1: became to me what it was supposed to be, but

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Speaker 1: so much more personal, so much more vulnerable, digging into

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Speaker 1: my family's history in a way that I hadn't expected,

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Speaker 1: and I learned things along the way. Certainly I understood

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Speaker 1: the weight of my grandfather's death, but I didn't know

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Speaker 1: about the earlier killings in my family and forcing me

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Speaker 1: to engage with that kind of inheritance in a way

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Speaker 1: that I know had no no plan on ever doing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, so much of our I mean, you

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Speaker 2: couldn't you can't know this. But I'm thirty eight now,

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Speaker 2: and I chose business journalism to be my niche, you know,

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Speaker 2: And I used to think that was like a way

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Speaker 2: of inoculating myself from what I could see peers heading toward,

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Speaker 2: you know, especially in like the last decade. I mean,

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Speaker 2: so much of the breaking news and the news on

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Speaker 2: the front page, it's either it's mass shootings, it's some

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Speaker 2: kind of catastrophic natural disaster, or it's you know, the

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Speaker 2: violence against black and brown bodies, and you know, these murders.

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Speaker 2: And I sort of always kind of struggled even with

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Speaker 2: this podcast. You know, we would show up, especially the

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Speaker 2: summer of twenty twenty, we'd show up to talk about

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Speaker 2: business and finance and the economics of things. But the

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Speaker 2: weight of what was, you know, these worries, these deaths,

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Speaker 2: these murders, was always in the air. And I and

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Speaker 2: I think as black people, no matter what your career

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Speaker 2: path is, Like we're all kind of going into work

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Speaker 2: day to day like carrying that heaviness. But you, as

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Speaker 2: a journalist, like there was I mean, was there it was?

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Speaker 2: It just that there was no way to like compartmentalize

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Speaker 2: it at that point because you're just you were not

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Speaker 2: able to. It's not just about you know, coming on

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Speaker 2: air and talking about it for a little bit. Like

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Speaker 2: you're in these people's homes. You're sitting across from the

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Speaker 2: mothers of you know, black children who were murdered, and

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Speaker 2: you talk about like how hard it was to even

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Speaker 2: look them in the eye or at least to like

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Speaker 2: engage with that amount of pain.

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Speaker 3: What do you think changed.

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Speaker 2: For you over your career where you know you were

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Speaker 2: able to kind of hold that and then eventually like

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Speaker 2: it started to break you down, you know physically.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think part of the issue for me at least,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure other journalists, black journalists particularly cover

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Speaker 1: black death and violence, it's that we do a too

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Speaker 1: good of a job of compartmentalizing it. I think I

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Speaker 1: was definitely I was putting it over here, and I

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Speaker 1: was packing it here and packing it here without fully

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Speaker 1: acknowledging the way that all of that packing and compartmentalizing

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Speaker 1: was weighing me down. And so for a long time

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Speaker 1: as a young journalist, I think we push further into

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Speaker 1: the work, especially for those of us who feel mission driven,

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Speaker 1: right like I felt like it's my obligation in my

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Speaker 1: job and my mission to tell our stories, the good,

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Speaker 1: the bad, the ugly, to shine light in dark spaces

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Speaker 1: and to go and confront what's ailing us as the people.

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Speaker 1: But you know, as journalists, we just work harder, We

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Speaker 1: drink and hang out, we do all kinds of stuff,

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Speaker 1: rather than engage with the potential of all of that

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Speaker 1: compartmentalizing oozing out into us. And so certainly it would

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Speaker 1: be tough when I was actually doing it, having those conversations,

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Speaker 1: sitting on the on the front porches, sitting on the sofas,

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Speaker 1: hearing those stories, looking into the eyes, you know, arriving

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Speaker 1: at crime scenes and finding a young young black man

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Speaker 1: looks just like me dead from gunshot wounds. All those

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Speaker 1: things that are not normal to be engaging with as humans.

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Speaker 1: But that was my job. So every single day for years,

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Speaker 1: especially as a police and crime reporter in Trenton and Philly,

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Speaker 1: and New Orleans and New York gathering like the most

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Speaker 1: terrible you know, chips of glass and bits of ribbon,

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Speaker 1: and you're adding to this, you know, this terrible quilt

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Speaker 1: of death and violence and experience, and still trying to

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Speaker 1: with the add of pressure of trying to humanize people

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Speaker 1: and trying to make sure that people are remembered in

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Speaker 1: their truest light, that people are experiencing this violence not

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Speaker 1: just because of the neighborhoods they live in, but from

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Speaker 1: being black in America, the systemic nature of all this violence,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, it was hard, but it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until the heart attack where I really had to refocus

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Speaker 1: and understand, you know, what it means to carry that

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Speaker 1: weight and how it manifests physically.

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Speaker 2: You know, I mentioned that we cross paths at the

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Speaker 2: nash Association of Black Journalist conference in Cleveland. This was

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Speaker 2: like a month or two ago, and you know, one

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Speaker 2: of the things I noticed just being an attendee at

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Speaker 2: this conference, it's thousands of journalists. You know, I've been

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Speaker 2: a part of NABJ for my whole career, even before

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Speaker 2: I was in college, but there was something about this

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Speaker 2: particular conference. So many of the sessions were around mental

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Speaker 2: health and coping with trauma, and there seemed to be

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Speaker 2: this like kind of this this heaviness and space to

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Speaker 2: be held for like what it can do to us,

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Speaker 2: you know, as humans in this career, in this field,

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Speaker 2: and how we're carrying that. I know that your session

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Speaker 2: wasn't so much about that, but I wonder if you

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Speaker 2: have any you mentioned in the book too, some of

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Speaker 2: like the the ways that you're taking care of yourself

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Speaker 2: differently now that have helped you, you know, and your

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Speaker 2: effort to just not to stop you. You haven't stopped

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Speaker 2: doing the work, which I think is amazing and courageous,

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Speaker 2: but you have like shifted your lifestyle a bit so

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Speaker 2: that you can do it in a healthier way for

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Speaker 2: yourself and your family.

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Speaker 3: Can you talk about that a little bit?

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Speaker 1: So? You know, before the heart attack, I didn't have

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Speaker 1: any real tools, right, healthy ways to really break down

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Speaker 1: everything that I was absorbing. But post heart attack, as

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Speaker 1: I was healing physically, which included you know, physical therapy

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Speaker 1: and working out and making sure that my heart was

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Speaker 1: as strong as possible, I began this journey of mindfulness

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Speaker 1: and meditation and breathing and finding real ways to when

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Speaker 1: the weight feels too heavy on my shoulders, that can

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Speaker 1: take some of it off, and that has been critical.

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Speaker 1: And I think fortunately we're in a space now where

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Speaker 1: you know, we can be vulnerable enough to admit when

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Speaker 1: the weight is heavy. I think we do have the

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Speaker 1: language now, We do have tools at our disposal within reach,

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Speaker 1: where just a decade or two before we simply didn't

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Speaker 1: have those, and there was a sign kind of not weakness,

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Speaker 1: but you know, allowing and admitting that things do affect

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Speaker 1: us emotionally mentally, you know, especially for those of who

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Speaker 1: are in the front lines who are telling these stories,

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Speaker 1: but also being black and existing in America comes with

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Speaker 1: a kind of mental and emotional weight, let alone a

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Speaker 1: physical weight that we're not sleeping, we're stressed out, or

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Speaker 1: eating habits, all those things that we're turning to instead

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Speaker 1: of addressing and engaging with what really is affecting us.

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Speaker 1: And so I think when you have a gathering like

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Speaker 1: the National Association of Black Journalists, and there are so

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Speaker 1: many of us who are trying to make our way

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Speaker 1: through this white world and these newsrooms and all the

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Speaker 1: pressure of just navigating, keeping your sense of self and

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Speaker 1: advocating for your people, and advocating for yourself and the

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Speaker 1: pressure of the job that come regardless of what your race, ethnicity,

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Speaker 1: or walking life is. And then on top of that

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Speaker 1: you add telling stories of you know, what it means

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Speaker 1: to struggle and survive and thrive. Being black in America

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Speaker 1: comes with a lot of weight. But you're right, it's

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Speaker 1: a I love that there's a whole new generation of

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Speaker 1: young journalists who hopefully understand they don't have to be

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Speaker 1: afraid to now only bring their whole selves to the job,

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Speaker 1: but also that we can, you know, be honest about

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Speaker 1: what you know, what's burdening us. And you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: loads of it that burden.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's hard to listen to you talk

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Speaker 2: because I feel like I'm so I'm so exactly like

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Speaker 2: in the not healthy part of like coping with a

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Speaker 2: lot of stress and I mean and a lot of

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Speaker 2: heaviness and the weight of the world and raising tiny

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Speaker 2: children and being a black woman, and like being in

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Speaker 2: my space where you know, a lot of my work

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Speaker 2: outside the podcast is creating building community for women of

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Speaker 2: color who are navigating their careers and struggling. And I

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Speaker 2: don't think there's been a more difficult time to be

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Speaker 2: in front of those types of rooms, and I've struggled

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Speaker 2: to find the words of like hope and inspiration, which

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Speaker 2: is like my whole job. So I probably should figure

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Speaker 2: that out. But some days it's just really hard, hard

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Speaker 2: to show up and to have to feel for ourselves

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Speaker 2: like a sense of Okay, there's something on the other

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Speaker 2: side of this. And I think the meditation and the

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Speaker 2: wellness journey is is one of those things where you're like, damn,

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Speaker 2: it is something to it, because you know, with good sleep,

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Speaker 2: hygiene and breath work like you mentioned, like these are

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Speaker 2: tools that I'm finally like learning myself how to use.

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Speaker 2: And it's affirming to me that they've been really helpful

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Speaker 2: for you because I'm like, Okay, stick with a girl,

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Speaker 2: like you know, keep putting in that practice.

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Speaker 1: But you know, but you know, I will say that

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Speaker 1: there's the you know, there's the practice, and there's there's

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Speaker 1: finding ways that work for each individual and for yourself

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Speaker 1: right whether it's meditation or breathing. But I think we

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Speaker 1: also have to understand and put our current, you know,

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Speaker 1: how we're living life now politically and socially in its

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Speaker 1: proper context, and that black folks unfortunately we've always had

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Speaker 1: to fight and struggle, and so imagine that if we

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Speaker 1: feel this way in the year twenty twenty five, what

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Speaker 1: it was like in nineteen twenty five when my people

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Speaker 1: were joining the Great migration, what it was like time

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Speaker 1: after time, And that we do have everything in us

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Speaker 1: to push forward. And I do truly believe that as

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Speaker 1: a people, that we have everything inside us that we need.

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Speaker 1: And certainly it's not easy, and certainly there's the wear

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Speaker 1: and tear, and certainly there's the inheritance of all the things.

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Speaker 1: But when I think it's bad and I think it's

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Speaker 1: tough to have to walk into this white newsroom with

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Speaker 1: my salary and my resources and tools and I feel

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Speaker 1: bad for myself, I have to remember, you know, from

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Speaker 1: whence we came and who we are, and that also

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Speaker 1: gives me great resolve and streath too. So sometimes we

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Speaker 1: just can't forget that we're not disconnected from mighty, mighty people,

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Speaker 1: even when it feels like the barriers are insurmountable, and

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Speaker 1: you have to have these conversations and all the aggressions

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Speaker 1: and microaggressions and all of the attempted erasure, the violence

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Speaker 1: of erasure of our history and our pat we come

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Speaker 1: from from mighty mighty stock. So it's like you know,

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Speaker 1: balancing that. Okay, how can we you know, tinker with

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Speaker 1: their lifestyle and tinker with our mindset and how can

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Speaker 1: we you know, breathe and you know, physically get ourselves

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Speaker 1: together but also spiritually reminding ourselves of who we come from.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the journey that you go through, I

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Speaker 2: mean one of the most chilling parts of the book.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's many moments that kind of give you goosebumps,

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Speaker 2: but one of them is you're digging back into your

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Speaker 2: family's history and your people originate Well, I know, we

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Speaker 2: all originate from Africa obviously, but your family, your great

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Speaker 2: great grandparents, they were living in Georgia, the Deep South,

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Speaker 2: and it was their twelve year old boy, your grand

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Speaker 2: was it your great grandmother or your grandmother's brother.

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Speaker 1: My grand just just my grandmother's brother. Yeah. So sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's like these histories seeming further back than they actually are.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't that far, right, It's yeah. So my great

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Speaker 1: grandparents were tenant farmers in rural jim Crow, Georgia, where

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Speaker 1: they had my grandmother, you know, her brother and her sister,

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Speaker 1: my aunt Rose and her two older brothers, and one

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Speaker 1: of those brothers was twelve year old Cornelius. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenty two, he was sent off to run errands one

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Speaker 1: day and he was shot and killed in a neighboring sundowntown.

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Speaker 1: And for many listeners, probably like me, thought sundown towns

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Speaker 1: were kind of colloquial like places that you know, there

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Speaker 1: was a racist town and they just didn't like black

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Speaker 1: folks there went. In fact, years earlier, the white men

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Speaker 1: of this town came together and took a vote to

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Speaker 1: expel black people, to keep black people their interaction in

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Speaker 1: this town limited. Couldn't be there after certain times, couldn't

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Speaker 1: participate in voting, just couldn't fully integrate into society. Decided this,

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Speaker 1: and the newspapers of the day wrote that Fitzgerald, this

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Speaker 1: town handled the negro problem the way no other city

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Speaker 1: in America could. Right, so this place was lauded as

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Speaker 1: a place that again handled the so called negro problem.

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Speaker 1: And the irony of this place also is that it

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Speaker 1: was heralded as a community that was founded by former

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Speaker 1: Confederate and former Union soldiers. So these Confederates and Union

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Speaker 1: soldiers veterans came together in magnanimity, right, and embracing this

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Speaker 1: kind of collective spirit of americanness, so much so that

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Speaker 1: they'd have criss crossing streets, some named after Confederates, some

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Speaker 1: named after Union soldiers. Right, this beautiful town that also

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Speaker 1: was a legit sundown town. And this is where my

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Speaker 1: great uncle Cornelia Is, twelve years old, was shot and killed.

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Speaker 1: And I'll never forget discovering the death certificate as his

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Speaker 1: age twelve called the death gunshot wounds, and seeing those

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Speaker 1: words next to each other was startling. And then I

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Speaker 1: couldn't help but think about Tamir Rice in Cleveland, who

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Speaker 1: was shot and killed by police officers with a toy gun,

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Speaker 1: and think about twelve years old. I think about my

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Speaker 1: own daughter twelve, their little chubby faces, and think about

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Speaker 1: Cornelis's murder and what that would have done to my

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Speaker 1: great grandparents, who, again, you know, shortly after experiencing that,

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Speaker 1: joined the Great Migration, like so many other black families,

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Speaker 1: headed north looking for sil and peace and opportunity.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I spent some time looking at that certificate as well,

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Speaker 2: and that artifact, and you know, to have a record

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Speaker 2: of it at all seems like a bit of a

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I was going to say gift, but

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Speaker 2: you know, having a record, it's almost like it just

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Speaker 2: underlines the importance of journalism in general, like someone to

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Speaker 2: take record and to make it true, like this actually happened,

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Speaker 2: you know, this was real. Yeah, just yeah. I can't

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Speaker 2: say enough how much that touched me. And you know,

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Speaker 2: ever since I had kids, it's like and you mentioned

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Speaker 2: a child, and I'm just gone, Oh, I'm just gone.

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Speaker 3: But your family.

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Speaker 1: But you know, it's also important to I think it's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, the narrative and it's true to some degree,

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Speaker 1: is that for a lot of black folks, our records

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Speaker 1: to stop at certain places. Right, But in these small

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Speaker 1: towns and in these municipal buildings, in these court basements,

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Speaker 1: there are acts, a lot of records and the National Registry, right,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of records out there that can

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Speaker 1: help black folks piece together bits and pieces of their history,

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Speaker 1: of our history. Certainly, it stops at a certain point,

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Speaker 1: because you know, we were considered property at a certain point,

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Speaker 1: and that's the great tragedy of one of the great

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Speaker 1: tragedies of enslavement, the erasure of pieces of our humanity. Right.

401
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Speaker 1: But there are a lot of records out there, and

402
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Speaker 1: you don't have to necessarily just be a reporter, even

403
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Speaker 1: though this is what we do. But there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of records out there that can help folks. So never, never,

405
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Speaker 1: never stop trying. If you're interested in your family history,

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Speaker 1: go to the municipal buildings, go to the census records, right,

407
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 1: go to the newspaper accounts, newspaper, dot com, ancestry. There

408
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,680
Speaker 1: are a lot of you know, great resources there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I bet you've gotten a lot of questions from

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Speaker 2: people who are like, how did you start to follow

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Speaker 2: this trail backwards?

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Speaker 3: And then how can we how can we do that?

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Speaker 3: As well? My aunt, my aunt Brenda, I love her

414
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Speaker 3: so much.

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Speaker 2: She is she's a Baptist associate pastor in Atlanta. And

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Speaker 2: you know, ever since I was like a teenager, I

417
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Speaker 2: feel like I remember and Brenda talking about the family curse,

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Speaker 2: that there was like a family curse. And I used

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Speaker 2: to and you know, people in the family, which is

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Speaker 2: not all it's just say Brenda going on again, and

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Speaker 2: and it was it's to me, it kind of seemed

422
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Speaker 2: like like it wasn't like a real thing, or like

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Speaker 2: I'd never really knew what she meant about it. And

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Speaker 2: it wasn't until like a few years back, you know,

425
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Speaker 2: really during that that that summer of Black Lives Matter

426
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Speaker 2: and that whole movement, when I started to like, you

427
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Speaker 2: know how you're kind of like a shitty teenager, you

428
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Speaker 2: just ignore your elders and all that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: At least I was like finally start to ask her

430
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Speaker 2: more questions and like ask about that curse, and found

431
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Speaker 2: out things about my family that I had not known,

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Speaker 2: you know, about how I had a cousin who has

433
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 2: gone down in a night club in Atlanta, and you know,

434
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 2: before I was born or right after I was born,

435
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 2: and no one really ever talked about him, and so

436
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 2: I really didn't know much about him, And how this

437
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 2: curse she was kind of talking about was like it

438
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 2: was a mixture of violence in our family but also.

439
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 3: Chronic illness.

440
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 2: And I think a lot about how, like I've talked

441
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 2: on the show about my dad's like his health challenges

442
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 2: and how he's four of six children and or sorry,

443
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 2: he's the fourth of six children, and four out of

444
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 2: those six children have died from some sort of chronic condition,

445
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 2: like complications of high blood pressure, diabetes, so kidney failure,

446
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 2: kidney cancer, you know, and how like I've thought a

447
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 2: lot about like how that is also mixed in like

448
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 2: not just the gun violence, but also the the health,

449
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 2: like the the way that these chronic conditions proliferate.

450
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 3: In these communities.

451
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm just saying all that to say that

452
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 2: I think your book has just reminded me again, like

453
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 2: to to push through that discomfort and to like look

454
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: at my family and like sit with them and actually

455
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 2: like talk about these things, like excize them a little bit,

456
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 2: because the not talking about them has almost made us

457
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 2: more vulnerable, you know, to these like these same conditions,

458
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,400
Speaker 2: these same tragedies like befalling us. And it's really hard.

459
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 2: Did you struggle, like as you're writing this book to

460
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 2: talk to your parents about you know, like your your

461
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 2: grandfather's passing for example, and his I'm sorry, not just

462
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 2: his passing, his murder, and like how did you navigate

463
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 2: those those conversations with them?

464
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 1: Well? I think I think the first part of what

465
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: you said there this idea of a curse. I think

466
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: what we're describing as a curse most certainly there is

467
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: a psychic kind of ethereal residue from the violence of

468
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 1: the past that we haven't fully shaken off, we haven't

469
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: been able to wipe clean. But I think it speaks

470
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 1: to the way trauma is passed along and inherited. Certainly,

471
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,719
Speaker 1: there's this idea of epigenetics which says that when we

472
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: experience trauma and violence enough, it starts to kind of

473
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: reorder yourself on a genetic level, and that we pass

474
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 1: that on. And so the way we respond to violence,

475
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 1: the way our bodies physically respond and at a cellular

476
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: level changes, and so there isn't much And I argue

477
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: in the book that there is the blood clot and

478
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 1: the bullet right different things, but both have the ability

479
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: to twist and shadow of life. That blood clot is

480
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: a slew of is a vehicle for a slew of

481
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: conditions that we experienced because of the way we've lived

482
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 1: and died in America, from the high blood pressure to

483
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: the lack of sleep to all those things really are

484
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 1: you can't just you attribute that to salt intake and

485
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: poor eating habits. It's not that it's much deeper than that.

486
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 1: And so that curse that families often speak of the

487
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 1: curses from the very beginning to me, and I argue

488
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: in the book The Devil's Deal between European powers and

489
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: African powers in our original enslavement by way of the gun,

490
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: where guns were traded for enslaved people, and the gun

491
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: created war and fomented instability on the continent to create

492
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: more enslaved people. Right, So, I think there is something

493
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 1: to that idea, that there is something beyond the physical

494
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,959
Speaker 1: that's been guiding us right on this path. But when

495
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: it comes to engaging with family members, I think about how,

496
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: you know, we talk about the Greatest generation and the

497
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: generation that came from World War Two, and these folks

498
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 1: who came in and they were quiet, a silent generation

499
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: who were quiet because of what they've experienced. And in

500
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: so many of our communities there is an implicit or

501
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: explicit rule of like not talking about family business and

502
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: not talking about the worst of what we experienced. And

503
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: so I think for a whole generation, it's been very difficult.

504
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: How do you talk about the murder and rape of

505
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 1: people of the people's for generation, as part for the

506
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,239
Speaker 1: course the constant dehumanization, how do you address that in

507
00:26:55,280 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: this case? You know, the emotions of my grand father's

508
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 1: murder are still very raw fifty plus years later in

509
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six. So I mean we're getting there almost

510
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: fifty years or is there fifty years? Yeah, fifty years.

511
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: And so talking to my aunts and uncles, most of

512
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: whom are still alive. Of the eight, there are six

513
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: of the children remaining. My mother, who is the youngest,

514
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: could cry to this day if she talks about her father,

515
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: brings tears to her eyes. Talking to my aunts and

516
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: uncles who were older than her when he was killed,

517
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: you know, they were opening the way that I didn't anticipate.

518
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: But in some ways, my documenting of our story and

519
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 1: even the pain is also an opportunity to speak to

520
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: what he meant for our family. This towering man with

521
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 1: a heavy voice that everybody loved, and this salt and pepper,

522
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: and this this man that everybody adored and respected and loved.

523
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: And that's why it's like it hurts so much because

524
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: of what was lost and because of what was stolen.

525
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: And so, in approaching this book in that way where

526
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: it is very much about how we experienced the pain

527
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: of loss and violent loss, it also is about showing

528
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: love and respect for those who survived, and love and

529
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 1: respect for those who didn't survive, and that we are

530
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: not defined by the worst of what we've experienced. We

531
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: are not that we are not my grandfather's murder. My

532
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 1: grandfather was not his murder, right, He was the way

533
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 1: he lived, not the way he died. And so, you know,

534
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: it was tough. The writing of it now was tougher

535
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 1: than the actual talking about it and having the conversations

536
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: me sitting in that for myself and for the first

537
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:40,239
Speaker 1: time understanding and feeling out like a visceral level, what

538
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: it means to not have my grandfather. Writing this book,

539
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: I cried for the first time for my grandfather. Before

540
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: I always knew about his murder, I could, you know,

541
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: I could understand the impact of my mother and her

542
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: siblings because it hurt is that that was their father.

543
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: But that was the extent of what I felt, you

544
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying writing this book and articulating my

545
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: grandfather's murdered in a string of murders up to that

546
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: point in my family. You know, again, I cry like

547
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: a baby at certain points writing this book and then

548
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: the audiobook where I had to I had to speak

549
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: the words that wrote cried all over again, and that

550
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: that that was tough because in so many again, I

551
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: never had to I had never had to feel, and

552
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: I had never been as open, right, I'd never been

553
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: as open. And so this book is like me opening

554
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: my chest up and I'm pouring myself out. But I'm

555
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: also find letting things in that I didn't know really

556
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: truly even existed.

557
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: Hey, ba fam, We're going to take a quick break,

558
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 2: pay some bills, and we'll be right back. Yeah. I think,

559
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: you know, raising young boys and being raised by like

560
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 2: a very proud, stoic black man like I have a

561
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: lot of hope, you know, reading your book, and there

562
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 2: are these like moments when you you know, you write

563
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: about like these emotional times when you break down crying

564
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: and when you're finally kind of letting the feelings come in.

565
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 2: And I think it's a really wonderful example to set

566
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 2: just for you know, young black men or men of

567
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 2: any age really to feel and process those emotions. So,

568
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I just thank you for that so much.

569
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: Thank you. It does not mean we have to we

570
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: have to engage, and we have to engage with those

571
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: feelings because you know, the burden of carrying it it's

572
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: killing us. And I don't think we can properly break

573
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: up that big cinder block of emotions until we name it,

574
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: call it trauma, call it what it is, learn to

575
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: identify its source. Right, you're you're not, You're not feeling

576
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: that way just because that not in your stomach or

577
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: that anxiety or that anger or that No, it's not,

578
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: it's not coming out of nowhere. That's that's not who

579
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: we are spiritually. And so I think it's it's hopefully

580
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: an opportunity to engage with the trauma and call it trauma,

581
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: call it, call it that. But it's been our it's

582
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: been so routine and so common, and we've all society

583
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: has accepted a degree of black pain. A degree of

584
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 1: black pain has been so par for the course that

585
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: we've normalized it, where none of this, none of this

586
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: has ever been normal.

587
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 2: Thinking, you mentioned this cinder block, and I'm thinking back

588
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 2: to the idea of a piece of plaque in your

589
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: artery that kind of breaks loose and becomes this whitow

590
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 2: maker and it resonates because I'm thinking, you know, this pain,

591
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 2: this trauma.

592
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 3: Is like that.

593
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 2: It's like, that's the plaque, you know, that's the the place.

594
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 3: That can break off. It can cause so much damage, So.

595
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: Can I switch through and think is I'm sorry, it's

596
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: it's dangerous because it's just it accumulates and it's volatile

597
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: because it can break off at any point. I think

598
00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: that's a perfect illustration because what happened to me is

599
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: that soft clack broke off and a blood clot worked

600
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: to fill its place, right, to try to repair it.

601
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: But I think, I think again, it's so it's so

602
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: volatile and it's were accumulating that sometimes without or notuth

603
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was accumulating, right, because it

604
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: wasn't so bad that it killed me earlier. It wasn't

605
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: so bad that I that it blocked my arms I

606
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,959
Speaker 1: needed bypass surgery. But it was just it was just

607
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: gathering and gathering, and it's volatile, and that's how our

608
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: emotions and trauma.

609
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 2: My dad survived a heart attack a couple of years ago,

610
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 2: and so I was thinking about I drew a picture

611
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:34,479
Speaker 2: of a heart when he went through that, and I

612
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: was like trying to just like make sense of it all,

613
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 2: and it was similar, like you know, envisioning how it

614
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: could happen. But there's something about I do believe that,

615
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 2: you know, I really deeply believe in like the long

616
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 2: toll of trauma and unprocessed trauma and unprocessed grief and emotion.

617
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 3: And all of that.

618
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's really hard. I feel myself even, like

619
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 2: to be honest, even having this conversation, and there's a

620
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 2: sense of wanting to pull away from it, talk about

621
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 2: anything else because it's just but you know, in my practice,

622
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 2: like in my practice of all my things, it's like

623
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 2: you have to kind of learn to question that feeling

624
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: and not necessarily judge yourself for it. I'm like, am

625
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: I being a terrible interviewer right now? I really don't,

626
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: But it's you know, I can't remove myself like from

627
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 2: it in that way. That is just how I'm feeling. Yeah,

628
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: I will take a deep breath, though, well cleansing breath.

629
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 2: I'll take one, God bless you on this book tour.

630
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: No listen, I've been like I've been city by city

631
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: having these conversations, and I've been on the verge of

632
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: tears every time, Like, without question, I'm surprised I havn't cried,

633
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: like every time I have to stop myself I talk

634
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: about my grandfather. But there is something that is all

635
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: so so healing and cleansing about having the conversations and

636
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 1: connecting with other people, people who have experienced similar things

637
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: or who haven't but can connect emotionally. And I think

638
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: there is something so powerful about us connecting an experience

639
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: that we share. There is a universality, especially among black

640
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: folks and black people, which is ninety eight point nine

641
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: percent of who I'm engaging with have been Black people

642
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: who can't connect to these experiences but also want to

643
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: unburthen themselves and knowing that there is great power in

644
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: who we are. And that's that's the part. Again. It

645
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: hurts because of what we're losing, but even with all

646
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: the emotions and pain and almost in the verge of

647
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: tears and real tears, I think there is so much

648
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: strength in our connecting and in a way that I've

649
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: never had before. I always felt connection to my people,

650
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: and my people have always connected to me the stories

651
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,439
Speaker 1: I'm telling. They see me as the neighbor, as the brother,

652
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,919
Speaker 1: as the nephew, as the sun. Right. So I've always

653
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: had that kind of familial connection to people, to strangers

654
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: I've never known who see me doing the work. But

655
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: to connect in this different facet of myself has been

656
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: in power as empowering as it has been. Again, I've

657
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 1: been on the burgessiers every every stop, every conversation.

658
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 2: Maybe you're just being tough because you can see I'm

659
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 2: on the bride, I'm losing, you're losing her.

660
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: Well you were you were when I when I mentioned

661
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: you were, you were crying over there, So I can

662
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: tell you're a sensitive spirit.

663
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's uh, yeah, I don't have it. I

664
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know what I am.

665
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: Now, but I'm just a a It's it's kind of

666
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 2: debilitating sometimes I just have to keep going. But also

667
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 2: I think it's a superpower in a way, because God,

668
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 2: if I wasn't feeling it, like for those who aren't

669
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 2: feeling and I kind of worry more for them, especially

670
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 2: given what you've writ in the book, if you're not

671
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 2: really processing and feeling it, and like, oh God, I

672
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 2: feel bad for your insights and what could be happening

673
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: and how it's going to show up for you in

674
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 2: other ways, there was a pardon.

675
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: But too often we haven't. Too often we haven't been

676
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: able to be vulnerable enough to connect. And this is

677
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 1: our humanity, and it is it is fragile, right, it

678
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: is vulnerable and it's fragile, and that's why there's this

679
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: deep unfairness to the way we've had to carry it,

680
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: and so certainly we have to find ways so we're

681
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: not debilitating because it is as it is, not as

682
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: we would like it to be the past, or the present,

683
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: and possibly the future. But I think that's that's a

684
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: great show of our humanity that we haven't fully become

685
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 1: so hardened, because a lot of us have that we're

686
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: not harder from what we experience or the experiences of

687
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: our brothers and sisters and neighbors. And sorry to cut

688
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: you off, but you just.

689
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 2: Spark that there was an incredible heart in your book.

690
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 2: I know you've told this story many times, but my

691
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 2: first time hearing it was by reading in your book

692
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: of that mantra that your mom would say to you,

693
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 2: like every day before you went to school or like

694
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 2: a lot of times.

695
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 3: I tried it on my five year old this morning

696
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 3: before he left the door.

697
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 2: I was like, he was like, because he's again such

698
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: as But I was like, Rio, you know, say this

699
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 2: after me.

700
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 3: I am.

701
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 2: He's like, I am. He said somebody. He said somebody

702
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 2: and he was screaming it. But he loves this. He

703
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: loves that smash mouth song all Star that's in Shrek

704
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 2: that starts out with Somebody, so he immediately takes it

705
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 2: there and starts singing this smash mouth song. And I

706
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 2: was like, no, no, no, We're gonna try again. And then

707
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 2: he's like, I am I Am a Dino.

708
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: But I'm like, listen, he's getting there, He's getting there.

709
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 2: But it's such a beautiful, such a beautiful, you know

710
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 2: mantra gift that your mother gave you from a young age.

711
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 3: Can you talk a little bit about your mamma for

712
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 3: a second. I just love moms in general, but.

713
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: My mother is has been such a force for me.

714
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say a guiding force, but an empowering force.

715
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,800
Speaker 1: Going back to when I was a little boy, before school,

716
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: we stayed. She'd get down her knee and we're face

717
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: to face and she would say I am and I

718
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: would say somebody. And we do have three were times,

719
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,399
Speaker 1: and you know, to this day, any room I walk into,

720
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: I walk into very proudly, very confidently, because I am somebody.

721
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: And this is before any of the awards, this is

722
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,720
Speaker 1: before this, before anything, I am somebody and I was somebody,

723
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: and I will always be somebody because of the way

724
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: I'm loved and cared for and pushed and encouraged, and

725
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 1: the level of encouragement that my mother has poured into

726
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: me always to this day. I don't know where I'd

727
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: be without that. To be able to confront and move

728
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,280
Speaker 1: through this world as a black man with all of

729
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: the pangs and arrows aimed at us and all the

730
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 1: barriers erected around us and all the bridges burned before

731
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: we even get there, that we are strong enough, and

732
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: that I am strong enough to push through and I

733
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: can do so with love and power and all of

734
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: those things. And my mother again, you know, coming from

735
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:55,240
Speaker 1: a big family, a big, hard working family, an imperfect family,

736
00:38:55,320 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: but a strong, beautiful, lovely family of good people, and

737
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: finding a way to push forward. And you know, and

738
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: even with me, my brother and sister were born. You know,

739
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: my mother got married when she was sixteen years old.

740
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: When she had my she was sixteen. She had my

741
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 1: sister at sixteen years old and my brother at eighteen

742
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 1: years old and was married and then I come along

743
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 1: at age twenty five, and so that she found a

744
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 1: way to be a good mother because it's probably it's

745
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 1: hard even if you have resources, let alone, you're a

746
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: young mother who's still basically a teenager yourself, but finding

747
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: a way to continue to pour into her children, and

748
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: certainly by the time she got to me at twenty five,

749
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: you know, being able to see the possibilities for her,

750
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: her youngest, her baby boy, and giving me everything she

751
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: had at that point is the greatest gift of all.

752
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: And so I can't stop talking about my mother, who

753
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 1: is the greatest mother on the face of the earth.

754
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: She did she no, she did. She would get to

755
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: the crib with me when I was younger. And it's

756
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 1: doesn't matter that. I mean, certainly, all children are arriving

757
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 1: with their set of possibilities, right, and they are enormous

758
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 1: and immense. But when we don't nurture those possibilities and

759
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: nurture those seeds, the power of nurturing that I mean again,

760
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: I think I would have been whatever okay is. I

761
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: guess I'd have been okay. I'd assume I have been okay.

762
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 1: But the difference that she's made in my life where

763
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: I've been able to chart this path is super super

764
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 1: unlikely path that I've been on. And there were so

765
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: many crooks in the road that could have derailed me.

766
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 1: There were so many, so many things that happened in

767
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: my life that could have sent me that way, but

768
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 1: I managed to like keep moving forward. There zero doubt

769
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 1: to me that some of that is is spirit. Some

770
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 1: of that was gonna happen no matter what. But I

771
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: think a lot of that is from my mother making

772
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: sure that seed had you know, even when it was

773
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: in rocky soil and the sun was blocked and you know,

774
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: the winter was bad, and she kept nurturing that seed

775
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: and I found a way to keep growing. It's it's

776
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: beyond me, and I am. I am somebody.

777
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 3: I am somebody that's beautiful.

778
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 2: Hey, ba, fam We're going to take a quick break,

779
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 2: pay some bills.

780
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:12,959
Speaker 3: And we'll be right back.

781
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: I do want to know, though, because you tell this

782
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 2: insane anecdote in the book, and it made me so

783
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: mad as a mama, you know what I'm talking about?

784
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 3: Did she know about that?

785
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 2: And you guys got to read the book to read

786
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: the or you can talk tell about him, but did

787
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: your mom know that you had put your whole academic

788
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 2: career at risk with that whole fake gun Halloween fiasco

789
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 2: when you were in school or did she read about

790
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 2: in the book.

791
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: She read about it in the book. So we're just

792
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 1: talking about this two days ago. She was like, she

793
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: didn't know about that one or the more with my

794
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: brother later on, with this this actual gun, she she

795
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 1: was she was very she was shocked. I could not

796
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: believe it. For those who haven't read the book yet,

797
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: this is an anecdote where I almost got myself and

798
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: there was some serious, serious trouble with a fake gun

799
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: that sent all these ripples throughout the school community. And

800
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 1: I went to this boarding school for poor children, this

801
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: great gift, the Milton Hershery School. It's the richer school

802
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: in the country, with eighteen billion dollar endowment. But to

803
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: get into the school, you have to be poor right

804
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: to get into it. And so it's this great opportunity

805
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 1: which I did end up graduating from. But I almost

806
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 1: derailed my entire act in the career with this fake

807
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 1: gun fiasco. But that's the one thing I didn't really

808
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: besides the family history stuff, I didn't talk to anybody

809
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: mother included about what was in this book. So this

810
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: was all a surprise to them. And so I had

811
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: a conversation with her just this weekend. I went to Jersey,

812
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 1: went to a diner that that we freaking we started.

813
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: We're talking about the books. She loves the book, of course,

814
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: but there was a lot of stuff in there. It's

815
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 1: very personal to our family and including her, and she

816
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: trust me this is your story too, so she doesn't

817
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: begrudge me. But she was surprised at, you know, the

818
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: stories I told. But I feel like, yeah, there were

819
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 1: so many moments where everything could have been very different

820
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 1: but for the grace and but for whatever it has

821
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: been that has been keep me on this path. I'm

822
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: still here to.

823
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,439
Speaker 2: Your children have these lives, and I'm like, oh god,

824
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: my son's gonna have some sneakerts someday. I'm so grateful

825
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 2: that did not, you know, because even though it was

826
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 2: a dumb thing, it was also like a kid thing,

827
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 2: like you know, how bad my five year old wants

828
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 2: a NERF gun?

829
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 3: And I'm like, hell to the now.

830
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 2: So he could have said that the same gun on

831
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 2: the shelf at Walmart and thought it was hilarious and

832
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 2: you know, something to put in your pocket and carry around,

833
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,479
Speaker 2: and you know, just in this country, and this time

834
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, we're not it's not worth it.

835
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 3: Sometimes to put yourself.

836
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,959
Speaker 1: Well to invokee to me Rice's name again, a twelve

837
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: year old boy with a toy gun and who you know,

838
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: the callers into police saying that there's a there's a

839
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: man with a gun. And so not only are black

840
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: boys not ever fully afforded boyhood, were so soon considered

841
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: and viewed as men and treated as black men are treated.

842
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: And so you add even a toy gun in that,

843
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: and you're you know, perceived as a menace and a threat.

844
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: And so often that means, you know that the police

845
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 1: and other agencies can can kill us. And so if

846
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: my mother knew, then she probably would have passed out.

847
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: But fortunately, fortunately I survived.

848
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 2: I'm glad you spared her safe, right, you know, I don't.

849
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 2: We don't have tons of time left, but I would

850
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 2: be remiss if we didn't get into the economic impact

851
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,320
Speaker 2: of gun violence. And that was sort of the original

852
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 2: mission of the book was to try to equate a

853
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 2: dollar amount, put a price on what gun violence is

854
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: costing black and brown families in America. And can we

855
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 2: you still include some of that in the book, and

856
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 2: can we talk a little bit about that. I think

857
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 2: from just the standpoint of you know, what work can

858
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 2: be done, you know, in terms of increasing economic equality

859
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 2: and opportunities and financial literacy, and if that could have

860
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 2: any impact on, you know, relieving some of the pain

861
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 2: and the financial pain that these families have to endure.

862
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, well, I think on a very micro deliberate

863
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 1: kind of context, I don't think there's any one personal

864
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: decision that a black family can make to alleviate the

865
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: broad systemic, broad myriad costs that we have society pay

866
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: for gun viotes every single year, to the tune of

867
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: five hundred and sixty plus billion dollars a year in

868
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,720
Speaker 1: the broad cost. But I'd be remiss if I didn't

869
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: speak to the earliest seeds of this book when it

870
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 1: was million dollar bullets. Was a young man I met

871
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 1: in two thousand and three as I was an intern

872
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 1: at the Philadelphi Daily News named Kevin Johnson. And Kevin

873
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: Johnson unfortunately was shot during a robbery attempt for his

874
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: Allan iris in basketball Jersey was shot in the back

875
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 1: of the neck and left paralyzed. And it was only

876
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 1: eighteen years old. And I met Kevin in his hospital

877
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: room maybe a week or two after the shooting, and

878
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: what I found was a young man who was physically

879
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 1: broken in some ways, but emotionally was like he had

880
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 1: this buoyancy about him and this huge smile on his

881
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 1: face as he told me about his dreams of walking

882
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: one day and he knew, he just knew he'd walk

883
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: one day, And he told me about his literal dreams

884
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 1: of playing basketball and feeling the sensation like he wasn't

885
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: paralyzed anymore. And I remember like feeling great hope from

886
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 1: this young man had so much stolen from him by

887
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: that single bullet. But then there was the look I

888
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 1: found in his mother's eyes across his hospital bed as

889
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: she started to describe to me literally the dollar cost

890
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: was going to take just to get him home. It

891
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 1: was going to be a special wheelchair. I think it

892
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: was thirty five or thirty six thousand dollars that they

893
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: didn't have for this wheelchair, a special van to transport

894
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 1: the van. A ramp would have to be built on

895
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,760
Speaker 1: their row home in North Philly. They'd have to widen

896
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 1: the doors that the wheelchair can get in. They have

897
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: to have a special electrical outlets to keep them for

898
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 1: a breathing machine to keep them alive. This was all

899
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: just to getting home and they were just a poor

900
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 1: family from North Philly. And that was the first time

901
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 1: I fully fully considered, oh my god, the economic ramifications

902
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: of a single bullet. And Kevin survived, and he's just

903
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 1: one of tens of thousands of people who are shot

904
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 1: every single year who survived. And most people who are

905
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: shot in this country don't have private insurance. They have

906
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:34,240
Speaker 1: public insurance. So that means we're all literally footing the bill.

907
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: And as soon as that bullet hits flesh and it

908
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 1: hits your spinal cord, a million dollars just for the

909
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: surgery alone, and that's before you talk about all the

910
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: costs that the individual families are going to need to

911
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 1: pay to revamp their homes right let alone the cost

912
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: of the investigations and all the other the lifetime of

913
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: health care costs, and businesses leaving violent communities right so

914
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: to tax paradolars, all these mirrid costs. And so I

915
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:03,720
Speaker 1: think my earliest approach might have been a bit cynical,

916
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,439
Speaker 1: but I said, you might not care about the Kevin

917
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: Johnson's of the world, but maybe you care that we're

918
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 1: all paying a literal dollar amount. And then I was

919
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 1: going to pull people into these broader costs, these non

920
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 1: financial costs. But if anything, you might not care about

921
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: the Kevin Johnson of the world. You might not, and

922
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: there are so many of them, unfortunately. But how much

923
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: longer can we continue to pay these actual costs when

924
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: those costs could go to feeding hungry children, could go

925
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: to workforce development, could go towards, you know, creating a

926
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 1: larger pool of a labor force. But the sad part is,

927
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: I think America is willing to pay this cost because

928
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: they perceive this as a primarily black issue, even though

929
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,320
Speaker 1: gun violence is not the domain of black people alone.

930
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: Certainly it's disapportionate the way we experience gun violence, But

931
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: forty plus percent of other people killed by guns in

932
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 1: this country every year are white people, and the vast

933
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,879
Speaker 1: majority of those killings are committed by white people. Right,

934
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 1: so we have a gun proper in America. This is

935
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 1: a very specific lens looking at how historically the gun

936
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: has been used systemically to to blunt our broadest aspirations

937
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 1: of freedom. But certainly there's there are great costs that

938
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 1: we pay every single day, and I would argue that

939
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: the steep the costs are just entirely too steep.

940
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 2: I would agree. I think that the cynicism for me came.

941
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 2: I mean it comes into play every time there's another

942
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 2: very public shooting. You know, we had the Charlie Kirk assassination,

943
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 2: and but I always go back to Sandy Hook and

944
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 2: how you know twenty six six year olds, babies, babies,

945
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 2: and largely white babies too. I mean, for me, that's

946
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 2: the what the whisper of a thought in my mind

947
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 2: that I'm like, can I say that out loud, that

948
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 2: they didn't do anything for them or in the wake

949
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 2: of that, And for me, that was like.

950
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: The hope, well, well, guess what. Charlie Kirk said that

951
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: the cost of liberty is going to be some gun death,

952
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: and he paid that price, right, And so I do

953
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 1: wonder how his family and supporters it was this a

954
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 1: cost worth pay? Some of them would argue yes, And

955
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 1: that's that's part of the problem here, that some of

956
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: the costs might be twenty six beautiful twenty six, twenty

957
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,399
Speaker 1: seventy beautiful babies and their teachers. Right. It might be

958
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: the synagogue shooting, It might be the everyday gun violence

959
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 1: we see in urban communities that are already hungry for

960
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: so much more, and unprotected and disinvested in right, or

961
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 1: the suicide of the white kid who disfills disconnected society,

962
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: or the inceel who goes and murders, you know, goes

963
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: on a rampage. These costs are worth this idea of liberty.

964
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 1: And that's part of the problem with the gun is

965
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 1: so central to the American ethos and so central to

966
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 1: American masculinity and manhood, right, and this idea of taming

967
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: the savage land and savage people who've existed on this right.

968
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: And so as long as we see the gun and

969
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 1: gun violence has core to that will continue need to

970
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: pay these costs, these literal dollar costs, but also the

971
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 1: costs that are burdening us every single day, every every

972
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:07,280
Speaker 1: single day in this country.

973
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

974
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 2: How important is for your independent journalists now, right? Or

975
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 2: are you still affiliated with like a network.

976
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 1: I'm semi so I'm like independently. My relationship shifted an

977
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 1: MSBC to an independent kind of deal, so my foot

978
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 1: is still in the mainstream, but I'm also producing my

979
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 1: own stuff.

980
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 2: Now, how important is it or how important is it

981
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 2: to you now to kind of be whether it's semi independent,

982
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 2: but be able to like say something about the Charlie

983
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 2: Kirk assassination without fearing for your job, like we've seen

984
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 2: other journalists and especially educators lose their their work over

985
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 2: just seeing the truth about situations like that.

986
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, I think, I think we have to.

987
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's like there's a I think

988
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: there is. There's also a way to have these conversations

989
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 1: that keeps intact, even people whose views seem repugnant and

990
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 1: repulsive and racist. We all deserve humanity. And that might

991
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 1: be a controversial take, but I do believe there's a

992
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 1: way to approach all of us with a degree of humanity,

993
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: even though we find repulsive and repugnant, because we're all

994
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: deserving of humanity, right, And so I think as long

995
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 1: as we have these conversations understanding that we're all flawed

996
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 1: and fallible and just humans, even when I'm talking about

997
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: the man who killed my grandfather in the book, or

998
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: the African co conspirators who helped enslave us right under duress, certainly,

999
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: but up enslaved us. We all deserve humanity, right, And

1000
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 1: so I think we have to have that approach and

1001
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: not get caught up in this the politics of the

1002
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 1: moment necessary necessarily because no, we have to address the

1003
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,359
Speaker 1: wild politics and the bile, dangerous politics. But I think

1004
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: there's a way to approach it. And I think also

1005
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: understanding that this is still kind of the plantation, right,

1006
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: and so when you're dealing, you're at working at the

1007
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:57,360
Speaker 1: behest of the plantation. If you speak out, that's the plantation.

1008
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 1: They can decide that they rather have an allegiance or

1009
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 1: a baseline that does not protect or favor you, right,

1010
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: and so if you have certain views or express certain

1011
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 1: views or opinions, they have the power to, you know,

1012
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: get rid of you. And so I think we have

1013
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 1: the addresses, and I don't typically I am careful, but

1014
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: also I think, like you, no, as long as you're

1015
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 1: leading with the right intentions, well even that doesn't work sometimes,

1016
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: but we have to. Somebody has to engage with the

1017
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: violatile stuff.

1018
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have those really difficult conversations. I'm so glad

1019
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,439
Speaker 2: that yours is one of the voices out there. Y'all

1020
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 2: got to go check out his podcast, it's called Into America.

1021
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 2: You also have a documentary. Do you want to quickly

1022
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,399
Speaker 2: mention that A Thousand Ways to Die the documentary Hope

1023
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 2: and high Water.

1024
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: That's right, for a second. So yeah, so yeah, So

1025
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 1: I cut my teeth in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina,

1026
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,359
Speaker 1: where I was a local newspaper reporter, And so twenty

1027
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 1: years later, for the anniversary of Katrina, I went back

1028
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 1: to New Orleans to engage with folks about how they

1029
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 1: are healing their own communities when everyone else has failed them,

1030
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: and policies and politicians, the hypocrisy, how they are healing themselves.

1031
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,759
Speaker 1: And so the documentary is Peacock right now. It's called

1032
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: Hope in high word of people's recovery twenty years after

1033
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 1: Hurricane Katrina. And so check that out on Peacock and

1034
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:11,959
Speaker 1: also get a Thousand Ways to Die. The true costs

1035
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 1: the bottles of black Black in America wherever you buy books,

1036
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: I would argue bookshop dot org support independent bookstores and

1037
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,479
Speaker 1: black bookstores, but also feel free to get it wherever

1038
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: you buy books.

1039
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 2: Do you still call yourself the gun Grio or can

1040
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 2: we think of something better? I mean for the brand,

1041
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 2: you know.

1042
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,399
Speaker 1: Well, I will always be a gun brill. I will

1043
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 1: always be a grill, you know, and you have if

1044
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 1: you have another one for me.

1045
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 3: I'll take a sucker for literation. Mandy Money Mandy money Makers.

1046
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 2: It's very basic, but that was one that stuck out

1047
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 2: for me. We'll please Brown Ambition. Y'all know how to

1048
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:47,399
Speaker 2: buy some books now, okay, A thousand Ways to Die?

1049
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 2: We know all about bookshop dot org. We'll put the

1050
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 2: link in the show notes. Tremainly, thank you so much

1051
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:54,879
Speaker 2: for sharing your story and for writing and for getting

1052
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 2: this book ten years across the finish line. Congratulations, and

1053
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 2: it's such an achievement. I'm really I'm so grateful that

1054
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 2: we were able to cross paths and just grateful for

1055
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 2: your time and for us spending some time with us

1056
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:09,240
Speaker 2: on Brown Ambition.

1057
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 1: Mandi, thank you so much having us and a pleasure.

1058
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 2: Thank you, okay Va fam, thank you so much for

1059
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,120
Speaker 2: listening to this week's show. I want to shout out

1060
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 2: to our production team, Courtney, our editor, Carla, our fearless

1061
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 2: leader for idea to launch productions. I want to shout

1062
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 2: out my assistant Lauda Escalante and Cameron McNair for helping

1063
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 2: me put the show together. It is not a one

1064
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 2: person project, as much as I have tried to make

1065
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,439
Speaker 2: it so these past ten years, I need help, y'all,

1066
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 2: and thank goodness, I've been able to put this team

1067
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 2: around me, to support me on this journey, and to

1068
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,360
Speaker 2: y'all be a fam I love you so so so

1069
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 2: so much. Please rate, review, subscribe, Make sure you're signed

1070
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 2: up to the newsletter to get all the latest updates

1071
00:55:55,680 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 2: on upcoming episodes, our tenth year anniversary celebrations to come,

1072
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 2: and until next time, talk to you soon be a bye.