WEBVTT - Episode 5: Never Can You Run

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<v Speaker 1>School of Humans. This show follows the investigation of serial

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<v Speaker 1>murders and contains material that may be disturbing. Listener discretion advised.

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<v Speaker 2>Late October twenty twelve, the trees were just beginning to bud.

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<v Speaker 2>A series of homicides were now sending shockwaves through the

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<v Speaker 2>small town of Krugerstorp, South Africa. The local papers run

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<v Speaker 2>stories about satanic murders, citing police reports of brutal, seemingly

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<v Speaker 2>ceremonial scenes. No charges were ever filed against Ria Grunevald,

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<v Speaker 2>but as the trees blossomed, so did the doubts and

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<v Speaker 2>the hearts and minds of Rhea's friends and confidants. Rhea

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't leave her house without being harassed, so she used

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<v Speaker 2>her time in isolation to repair her relationship with her son, Joshua.

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<v Speaker 2>Rhea's years of devotion to Cecilia left Joshua feeling neglected

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<v Speaker 2>and resentful. Rhea felt determined to bridge the divide between them. Coincidentally,

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<v Speaker 2>that same October, Joshua became the latest fixation for Cecilia Stein.

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<v Speaker 2>Since revenge against Ria was her primary goal, she could

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<v Speaker 2>find no better target for her wrath. By this time,

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<v Speaker 2>Luke the infiltrator was being primed to officially become a

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<v Speaker 2>member of Electus Perdeis. He was spending a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>time with Cecilia and Zach and the others. Luke's primary

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<v Speaker 2>residence was out of town, but since he had worked

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<v Speaker 2>in Kruger's door, he liked to stay with his friends

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<v Speaker 2>Zach and Michaela. The three had become close. Luke had

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<v Speaker 2>also been an acquaintance of Natasha Berger and Joy Burnside.

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<v Speaker 3>I was murdered. I couldn't and I looked. I didn't

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<v Speaker 3>have to part with it because it feels like everybody

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<v Speaker 3>in ron Jews keeping money.

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<v Speaker 2>Believing that Zach was devastated, Luke stuck around to help

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<v Speaker 2>his friend grieve the loss of his wife, even if

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<v Speaker 2>it meant staying in the same house where she was killed.

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<v Speaker 2>Luke found Zach to be strangely unaffected by his wife's murder.

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<v Speaker 3>That the man didn't even cry about his wife.

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<v Speaker 2>Everyone had loved Michaela, Luke concluded. In her absence, Luke

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<v Speaker 2>found himself slowly drawn into Cecilia's orbit. Then one day

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<v Speaker 2>she popped the question.

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<v Speaker 3>She asked me, do you think zackscribable of murder?

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<v Speaker 2>Luke had growing doubts about Zach, but not enough to

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<v Speaker 2>label him a murderer.

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<v Speaker 3>Saw below. I don't know, I don't think so, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>Cecilia assured him that Zach was a loyal soldier in

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<v Speaker 2>her army, willing to do whatever it took to carry

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<v Speaker 2>out God's word.

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<v Speaker 3>So she told me about how he killed Pendson with

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<v Speaker 3>the X namon started every care program.

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<v Speaker 2>Right before his unbelieving eyes, it re enacted the murder.

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<v Speaker 2>Luke was horrified. His worst fears confirmed his friend Zach

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<v Speaker 2>was indeed a killer, and now Luke was suddenly profoundly

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<v Speaker 2>scared for his own life. He'd gotten too close to Cecilia,

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<v Speaker 2>and like Mikayla, he also knew too much.

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<v Speaker 3>And then the whole things started to make sense to you.

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<v Speaker 3>What's going on and all every boys.

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<v Speaker 2>Involved from School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. This is

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<v Speaker 2>Queen Havoc and her murder cult. I'm your host, Kurt Kubachak,

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<v Speaker 2>Episode five, Never Can You Run. One night in Cecilia's small,

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<v Speaker 2>dimly little apartment, Zach Valentine tells the group he's received

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<v Speaker 2>a sign, a vision just like the one Cecilia had

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<v Speaker 2>about Natasha Ria Grunivald's son, Joshua should be their next target.

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<v Speaker 2>Then Marinda chimes in. Turns out she also received a

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<v Speaker 2>sign about Joshua's future on Earth. This tract with the plans,

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<v Speaker 2>Cecilia already started plotting to hit Ria Grunivald where it

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<v Speaker 2>would hurt the most.

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<v Speaker 3>So they cornered me, and they say that I must

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<v Speaker 3>be Zach's right hand man. I must help him to

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<v Speaker 3>murder Joshua.

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<v Speaker 2>In a matter of months, Zach had evolved from husband,

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<v Speaker 2>friend and frequent host to a cold, calculating murderer, and

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<v Speaker 2>Luke was being groomed to join their sadistic form of worship.

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<v Speaker 2>To Cecilia's steying, I keep.

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<v Speaker 3>Myself cool that in the inside I was ripped the

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<v Speaker 3>thought and day's night time to go with cry and stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>Then I must get into this guide, thinking and praying

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<v Speaker 3>every night how to avoid this.

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<v Speaker 2>Luke was having a crisis, realizing that his initial impulse

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<v Speaker 2>to infiltrate the group was a bit naive. He placed

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<v Speaker 2>himself in the crosshairs of real killers, and by the

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<v Speaker 2>time he came face to face with this reality, the

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<v Speaker 2>one in which he might very likely be murdered, he

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<v Speaker 2>was in too deep. Now he was spending his nights

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<v Speaker 2>in Zach's passenger seat, stalking their next victim and trying

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<v Speaker 2>desperately to think of ways to thwart Zach.

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<v Speaker 3>Every night they went through and spied on this guy.

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<v Speaker 3>Are we What's talk? A couple of times, driving to

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<v Speaker 3>his house, and then he played volleyball day in Randburgh.

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<v Speaker 2>Jana Marx's book describes EPD placing hidden cameras in the

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<v Speaker 2>trees outside Joshua's home. One evening, Zach trailed him into

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<v Speaker 2>a bar and slipped something in his drink. J Zach's dismay.

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<v Speaker 2>It seemed to have no effect, but they were getting

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<v Speaker 2>closer and the walls were closing in on.

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<v Speaker 3>Luke to Nithis tonight, They're gonna kill him and then

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<v Speaker 3>I'll just come up with excuses or all do anything

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<v Speaker 3>in my pala to something.

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<v Speaker 2>When Joshua's active, outgoing lifestyle made him hard to track,

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<v Speaker 2>EPD decided to try the same tactic they'd used with

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<v Speaker 2>Ben Dixon. They would make an appointment. Luke made the

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<v Speaker 2>first call to Internet Solutions, the company Joshua worked for,

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<v Speaker 2>and requested a house call, but Luke couldn't get him

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<v Speaker 2>to nail down a time, which makes sense. Joshua worked

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<v Speaker 2>in systems, I not a help desk. So Marinda tried next.

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<v Speaker 2>She said she needed help connecting her home WiFi. Joshua

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<v Speaker 2>was polite, but instead of agreen to come over, he

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<v Speaker 2>referred her to one of his peers. As EPD ramped

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<v Speaker 2>up its tactics, Luke kept trying to stall.

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<v Speaker 3>I was doing everything in my power that I've worked

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<v Speaker 3>with people. Luckily they believed all the bullshit I feeded them.

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<v Speaker 3>It's almost like a split personality in the day when

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<v Speaker 3>I'm with him, I'm this type of person, but I'm

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<v Speaker 3>myself in.

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<v Speaker 2>Horrible Meanwhile, Joshua had become a bit suspicious something about

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<v Speaker 2>this onslaught of house call requests felled off. Luke wanted

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<v Speaker 2>no part in the murder, so he tried to get

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<v Speaker 2>out of it by having an honest conversation with Cecilia.

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<v Speaker 2>Luke thought he was dealing with a rational mind, and

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<v Speaker 2>how do you think Cecilia responded well? She returned to

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<v Speaker 2>scripture reminded them that they were God's soldiers, following in

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<v Speaker 2>the footsteps of King David. Luke later testified in court

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<v Speaker 2>that zach Once threatened his life After Luke questioned the

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<v Speaker 2>way Cecilia and EPD conducted themselves, he just warm.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, I started thinking like his wife ing it up.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, both Luke and Joshua's only hope for survival depended

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<v Speaker 2>on Luke's bravery. He desperately needed to collect evidence to

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<v Speaker 2>prove they were planning this murder. Then he could go

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<v Speaker 2>to the police, but he had to do it before

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<v Speaker 2>the hammers, knives, and axes came out for him.

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<v Speaker 3>I didn't know what to do anymore. I just paid

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<v Speaker 3>and I asked the Lord. It gave me strength and

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<v Speaker 3>everything and league meet because I'm gonna get caught. I'm

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<v Speaker 3>gonna die like Makaya.

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<v Speaker 2>Court hearings revealed that Cecilia ordered LaRue to dig three graves,

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<v Speaker 2>all in different locations. That way, EPD had options for

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<v Speaker 2>where to bury Joshua's body. Luke, the infiltrator, was in

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<v Speaker 2>over his head.

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<v Speaker 3>You are so scared, but you can't sherwance. She needed

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<v Speaker 3>Suffici reaching in your insight, because if they can get

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<v Speaker 3>a glimpse of something, especially as a cilio, is that

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<v Speaker 3>it's game over for you.

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<v Speaker 2>All systems were go, and Luke wanted out despite his

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<v Speaker 2>ever present fears, Luke kept searching for evidence to incriminate

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<v Speaker 2>the members of EPD. He needed hard proof. Luckily, finding

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<v Speaker 2>it didn't take too long.

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<v Speaker 3>The person that murdered McKayla, who Wonner White a we

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<v Speaker 3>equipland and I found that thing Zacks couplet.

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<v Speaker 2>It was time Luke went to the police.

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<v Speaker 3>We ne got very hot. That's when I wented it.

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<v Speaker 2>The tip of that detective is Colonel the Yager, the

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<v Speaker 2>one who was so fixated on the Satanic angle. The

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<v Speaker 2>Yager was Luke's only contact in the Cruise Door Police

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<v Speaker 2>at this time.

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<v Speaker 3>So I met this colonel one day and he gave

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<v Speaker 3>me a type recorder because if they can get the

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<v Speaker 3>confession on tape, it's a media erased.

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<v Speaker 2>It's now December twenty twelve, summer in South Africa. Dusk.

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<v Speaker 2>Luke is now working under cover for the police, summoning

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<v Speaker 2>all the courage he can muster. His plan is to

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<v Speaker 2>record the killers from EPD, get them to confess to

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<v Speaker 2>all four murders, Natasha and Joy, Pastor Reginald Bendixon and MICHAELA. Valentine.

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<v Speaker 2>Once he gets them on tape, he'll step outside of

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<v Speaker 2>Cassana Flats and signal to the police. At least those

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<v Speaker 2>are the orders Luke's been given.

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<v Speaker 3>I had a pocketing my least rom of my biker jacket.

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<v Speaker 3>The recorder was face.

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<v Speaker 2>He arrives at Cecilia's place. Nothing out of the order.

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<v Speaker 2>They meet their regularly. Luke plays it cool at first.

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<v Speaker 2>He has a plan to get them talking.

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<v Speaker 3>I leaded this whole conversation, and we spoke about everything.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Luke reaches the subject of murder. It's a

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<v Speaker 2>risky move. He asks how they did it. True to

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<v Speaker 2>their nature as amateur cutthroats, Cecilia, Zach, and Mirinda openly confess,

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<v Speaker 2>boasting about the kills.

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<v Speaker 3>What everyone day. I got everybody to confess about the

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<v Speaker 3>murders and everything, and I planned the next murder.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, all four murders, and the plans to kill

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<v Speaker 2>Rhea's son Joshua. As the night wears on, a bad

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<v Speaker 2>feeling creeps over Luke. This shroud of anxiety and adrenaline

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<v Speaker 2>peeks as he looks around the room and he realizes

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<v Speaker 2>Zach is missing.

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<v Speaker 3>While I was talking to Cecilia, we saw this appeared.

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<v Speaker 3>And now are they work? And you just a little voice,

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<v Speaker 3>he said, Bryan. He just just toat your stuff and go,

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<v Speaker 3>Just get out of here.

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<v Speaker 2>Luke immediately wonders, did I ask too many questions? Is

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<v Speaker 2>a silly onomy? Is Zach out there waiting for me

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<v Speaker 2>in the dark?

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<v Speaker 3>No, I knew, what's my time?

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<v Speaker 2>I need to go now, Luke makes up a reason

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<v Speaker 2>for why he has to bow out for the night.

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<v Speaker 2>With the tape still rolling in his pocket, Luke steps outside.

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<v Speaker 2>You have expects a flurry of police activity, but the

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<v Speaker 2>night is quiet.

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<v Speaker 3>Now wein' outside leaves the y and he was indeed Haldin.

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<v Speaker 3>I added one and one to gear.

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<v Speaker 2>Luke stands at the top of the Casana Flats complex steps.

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<v Speaker 2>His breath quickens. On his way down the stairs, he

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<v Speaker 2>glimpses a sign that reads danger. It's a private property sign.

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<v Speaker 2>He's read it a million times, but this time it's different.

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<v Speaker 2>That's when Luke hears that little voice once again.

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<v Speaker 3>I turned from my life. I was almost murdered th line.

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<v Speaker 2>First, he had to go back to Zach and Michaela's

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<v Speaker 2>to get his stuff, but he only had his motorcycle.

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<v Speaker 3>So I got on my bike. I'll drive his Zack's house.

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<v Speaker 2>Fear rushes through him as he steps in his Zach's apartment.

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<v Speaker 2>Zach isn't there, thank god. Luke springs into action, calling

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<v Speaker 2>a friend to come get him. While he grabs what

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<v Speaker 2>he can took.

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<v Speaker 3>Almost stuff like the get he like a split segund.

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<v Speaker 2>In his panic, he can't seem to find his ID

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<v Speaker 2>card and some other personal documents. Could Zach have stolen them?

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<v Speaker 2>Anything is possible with discord. Soon his friend pulls up

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<v Speaker 2>and Luke sneaks out the back door. He jumps in

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<v Speaker 2>the car and frantically tells his friend to drive fast.

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<v Speaker 2>He's alive and that's what matters.

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<v Speaker 3>When I just got out of the gate into the bush.

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<v Speaker 3>The worth the costs coming in? You know where mad

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<v Speaker 3>your time course Montan.

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<v Speaker 2>After Michaela's murder, Detective Suset Kenotse was brought onto the case.

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<v Speaker 2>With her background in the occult related Crimes unit, the

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<v Speaker 2>department thought it was only apt for her to evaluate

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<v Speaker 2>these suspected Satanic slayings and lend her expertise. Unlike Colonel

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<v Speaker 2>di Yager and Captain ben Vick, Detective Susette didn't put

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<v Speaker 2>much faith in the notion that Satanists were killing innocent people.

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<v Speaker 2>She thought it was far more mundane than that. But

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<v Speaker 2>then a strange meeting with Ria. Grunivald challenged that suspicion

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<v Speaker 2>this happened before she had been fully briefed on Michaela's murder.

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<v Speaker 2>She wanted to hear Rhea's side of things. Rhea requested

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<v Speaker 2>that they speak in a public place. The location the diner,

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<v Speaker 2>the same place where Cecilia had threatened Riha months before.

0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.280
<v Speaker 2>This time, Rhea brought along a group the parishioners tact

0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:02.960
<v Speaker 2>as spiritual bodyguards.

0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:06.600
<v Speaker 1>I were sitting like in a half circle around the table,

0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:11.160
<v Speaker 1>and obviously I found that kind of odd. She told

0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:16.760
<v Speaker 1>me they are praying because Celia is a which she

0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:22.800
<v Speaker 1>can hear everything that Ria says. So while these people

0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:26.720
<v Speaker 1>sit there praying, Celia will not be able to year.

0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:31.000
<v Speaker 2>Ria was wary of Detective suseid you could hear.

0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:36.080
<v Speaker 1>She trusted no one because Celia installed this in her.

0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:41.120
<v Speaker 2>Ria was traumatized. I mean, who wouldn't be. All Ria

0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:42.920
<v Speaker 2>could do was lean on her faith.

0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.040
<v Speaker 1>She asked me the question, are you a Christian? I said, well,

0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:49.160
<v Speaker 1>it's it's irrelevant what religion I am. I'm here to

0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:54.320
<v Speaker 1>help you. There was murders that's taken place and apparently

0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:58.040
<v Speaker 1>you can help solve them. So it's irrelevant what religion

0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:01.120
<v Speaker 1>I am. But okay, I will tell you I am

0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:03.880
<v Speaker 1>a Christian. But it's good nothing to do with this.

0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:11.200
<v Speaker 2>Whether the Satanists the police were after were real or imagined.

0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.160
<v Speaker 2>Until Detective Susette confronted them, the police department would continue

0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.680
<v Speaker 2>to fumble justice, so she would have to face the

0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:24.000
<v Speaker 2>religious implications of these crimes objectively and head on. Lucky

0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.640
<v Speaker 2>for the people of Krueger's store, Detective Susette is not

0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.520
<v Speaker 2>someone who shies away from challenges. She's one of the

0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:33.880
<v Speaker 2>few who willingly runs towards them. In this high crime area,

0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:38.640
<v Speaker 2>the SAPs was overwhelmed by new cases popping up every day,

0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.880
<v Speaker 2>so it was weeks before Detective Susette Canozze was even

0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:45.960
<v Speaker 2>briefed on the crimes. Finally, she was called in for

0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:48.840
<v Speaker 2>a meeting with superiors on the police force to discuss

0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:52.120
<v Speaker 2>the case. Colonel de Yager was also at this meeting.

0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:55.400
<v Speaker 2>He sat next to her in the department's conference room

0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:56.680
<v Speaker 2>and insisted.

0:16:56.720 --> 0:17:00.360
<v Speaker 1>This is satanism. This is satanism because there is no

0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.840
<v Speaker 1>blood on the scene and they took all the blood.

0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:06.639
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, what as we heard last episode.

0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.240
<v Speaker 2>Colonel the Yager thought that the quantity of blood found

0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.160
<v Speaker 2>at the scene didn't match the severity of Reginald Ben

0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:17.879
<v Speaker 2>Dixon's wounds, which to him implied the killers collected the

0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:21.840
<v Speaker 2>blood and drank it or used it in some satanic ritual.

0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:25.480
<v Speaker 2>His theory didn't sit well with Detective Susette.

0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.879
<v Speaker 1>This guy's lying on the grass. What are you saying?

0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:35.920
<v Speaker 1>And I said, sorry, are you? And he says, oh,

0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:40.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm Colonel the Yacher. He says he's the expert on satanism.

0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:46.560
<v Speaker 1>And I thought, huh, okay, sorry, where are you from?

0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:50.960
<v Speaker 1>In my thirteen years of occult related crimes, I have

0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:55.680
<v Speaker 1>never met him, never knew about him. Nothing. What he

0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.760
<v Speaker 1>is saying is absolute.

0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:01.000
<v Speaker 3>Bullshit.

0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:02.280
<v Speaker 1>Can I say that.

0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:07.480
<v Speaker 2>Detective Susantte had actual science on her side. A blood

0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.560
<v Speaker 2>expert she brought in agreed that the blood had clearly

0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.000
<v Speaker 2>been absorbed by the earth and grass the victim was

0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.480
<v Speaker 2>lying on, which blew holes into Yager's theories of satanism

0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:17.240
<v Speaker 2>and witchcraft.

0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.359
<v Speaker 1>And ask him where did you hear this? And he

0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:24.639
<v Speaker 1>says no, He's spoken to Conel Yonker, and obviously he

0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:28.720
<v Speaker 1>does not know my connection to Colonel Yonker.

0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:32.119
<v Speaker 2>Colonel Yonker, founder of the Occult related Crimes unit, was

0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:33.840
<v Speaker 2>practically family to Susette.

0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:35.639
<v Speaker 1>And I said, okay, just hang on a minute, and

0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:40.000
<v Speaker 1>I went outside fund Colonel Yonker. I said, Colonel, who's

0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:45.480
<v Speaker 1>Connel the orcher? He says, I don't know. I said, no, man,

0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:50.159
<v Speaker 1>He said he's spoken to you and gave him a

0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:53.960
<v Speaker 1>little of the Krugeys doorposis, Oh, that's correct. A guy

0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:58.120
<v Speaker 1>phoned me. He says, listen, sir, I know nothing about

0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:01.760
<v Speaker 1>the occult and I'm this guys and I need to

0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:03.520
<v Speaker 1>get a cross calls in.

0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:10.120
<v Speaker 2>This Detective Susette was wholly convinced if the cops ever

0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:13.120
<v Speaker 2>wanted to solve the growing number of murders in Krugersdorp

0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:15.679
<v Speaker 2>and all over the country that have to give up

0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:19.879
<v Speaker 2>the obsession with Satanism, they were sensationalizing these crimes. But

0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:24.080
<v Speaker 2>perhaps that was on purpose. You see. The deeper Susette

0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:27.680
<v Speaker 2>waited into the serial murder investigation, the more she began

0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:30.840
<v Speaker 2>to notice how incompetent both the Yager and van Vic

0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:37.280
<v Speaker 2>were as officers. For example, remember how Mirinda's fingerprints were

0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:40.240
<v Speaker 2>found on the newspaper on Rhea's porch. Captain Vin Vick

0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.520
<v Speaker 2>proposed at the time that the fingerprints could have been planted.

0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.840
<v Speaker 2>He said prosecutors were concerned that Rhea could have attempted

0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.960
<v Speaker 2>to frame Mirinda. That was his claim then and he

0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:53.520
<v Speaker 2>maintained the explanation years later when speaking to us.

0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:56.199
<v Speaker 4>The reason for them not placing the case was the

0:19:56.240 --> 0:20:01.080
<v Speaker 4>fact that the prosecutors said that Mirinda and Rea Runavald

0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:06.199
<v Speaker 4>to the neighbors, and the thoughts of the prosecutor at

0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:09.560
<v Speaker 4>the time was that real Runivald could have taken the

0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:14.200
<v Speaker 4>paper from Mirenda's husband and planted it as evidence.

0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:21.600
<v Speaker 2>To framer, Wow, that's a bit of a reach. However,

0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:26.240
<v Speaker 2>according to Detective Canotes, Mirinda was released from police custody

0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.840
<v Speaker 2>for a procedural bungle. She still gets frustrated when she

0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:33.320
<v Speaker 2>recalls how it all went down. Ria could have framed Mirinda.

0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:35.560
<v Speaker 2>To her, that sounded like, well.

0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:38.440
<v Speaker 1>All shit, that's not how Mirenda got off. I can

0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:39.720
<v Speaker 1>show you look in the.

0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:41.880
<v Speaker 2>Doggets That's what Bamvik said to us.

0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:45.240
<v Speaker 1>No, he's lying. He just doesn't want to bring that up.

0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:49.960
<v Speaker 1>What happened was Van Vike wrote the wrong case number down,

0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.080
<v Speaker 1>it went to courte and when it came in Courte

0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.760
<v Speaker 1>Mirenda couldn't be placed in the skies because this guy's

0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.600
<v Speaker 1>was something about theft or something, and I said, but

0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:02.719
<v Speaker 1>she be connected to this guys. Van Weik wrote the

0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:07.040
<v Speaker 1>wrong number down and she was let go. That is

0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:08.240
<v Speaker 1>what happened.

0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.680
<v Speaker 2>With Detective Susette. Officially at the Helm, the police would

0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:17.159
<v Speaker 2>be forced to stop chasing imaginary Satanists and it wouldn't

0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:20.240
<v Speaker 2>be long before she gathered enough evidence to scare EPD

0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:20.879
<v Speaker 2>in hiding.

0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:26.159
<v Speaker 4>It was after the Michaila story the police, you know,

0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:29.120
<v Speaker 4>sort of came onto the scene and they were very suspicious.

0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:41.159
<v Speaker 2>While the hysteria of the nineties has long passed, the

0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:45.680
<v Speaker 2>fear of Satanism still remains in the ether. Yet, according

0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:50.360
<v Speaker 2>to Detective Susette, Canose, journalist Jana Marx, Detective Ben Boysen,

0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:53.840
<v Speaker 2>Colonel Kobus Yonker, and almost everyone else we spoke to

0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:57.080
<v Speaker 2>the fact that the police jumped to this conclusion that

0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:01.080
<v Speaker 2>Satanists were behind the Grizzly murders only set the cops

0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:05.199
<v Speaker 2>off course and in doing so placed far more lives

0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:11.080
<v Speaker 2>in danger. But Whattyager's assessment entirely wrong. Cecilia claimed a

0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.359
<v Speaker 2>lineage of witches and that she'd been possessed by Satan,

0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:17.879
<v Speaker 2>even becoming his bride. Yet she gathered up a flock

0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:20.520
<v Speaker 2>of Christians and made them believe that she was a

0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:26.160
<v Speaker 2>vehicle for God's mission. It seems regardless of which side

0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:29.680
<v Speaker 2>she was on, Cecilia had a bit of a Messiah complex.

0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:33.399
<v Speaker 2>According to her, she had been tempted by Satan, and

0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:36.960
<v Speaker 2>her followers were the way out of his grasp. This

0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:40.159
<v Speaker 2>was the story. She told them that they were the

0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:43.840
<v Speaker 2>key to her salvation, and delivering her from this temptation

0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:48.200
<v Speaker 2>ensured all of them a special place in heaven. Together,

0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:52.879
<v Speaker 2>they would make God's plans real, even if doing so

0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:57.440
<v Speaker 2>men compromising all morals and going against their fellow humans.

0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:03.560
<v Speaker 2>It's all extremely convol Cult leaders often keep details so

0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:07.280
<v Speaker 2>vague that even their followers have trouble fully understanding what

0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:11.159
<v Speaker 2>all is happening. She did this with the orphanage, the

0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:14.359
<v Speaker 2>reasons for the murders, and even her own origin story.

0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:16.959
<v Speaker 2>So we wanted to get to the bottom of her

0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:21.040
<v Speaker 2>actual beliefs. Did she believe in anything at all? Or

0:23:21.160 --> 0:23:23.679
<v Speaker 2>was this all simply a way to manipulate others for

0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:28.360
<v Speaker 2>her personal gain. Was Satanism just a red herring used

0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:32.320
<v Speaker 2>by Cecilia and maybe Diyager too to throw everyone off

0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:35.840
<v Speaker 2>the scent or is it possible that what Cecilia was

0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:39.320
<v Speaker 2>claiming was true? We asked Luke, who had a front

0:23:39.400 --> 0:23:43.800
<v Speaker 2>row seat to her chaos. Was Cecilia ever actually a Satanist?

0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:47.440
<v Speaker 3>Freely? Yeah, that's one of those.

0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:52.960
<v Speaker 2>Bullship Rhea's mentor. The psychologist F. H. Haavinga agrees with

0:23:53.040 --> 0:23:56.439
<v Speaker 2>Luke's assessment, havinga consulted the police on a cult and

0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:58.679
<v Speaker 2>satanic cases for the majority of his career.

0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:02.600
<v Speaker 1>This is not psyche, this is something else. And that's

0:24:02.640 --> 0:24:03.680
<v Speaker 1>what I said.

0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:08.679
<v Speaker 5>That was my advice to Colonel X, not knowing that

0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:10.960
<v Speaker 5>Kuba jon Got said to him exactly the same.

0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:14.520
<v Speaker 2>Journalist and author Jana Marx had similar opinions.

0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:22.359
<v Speaker 5>I realized, I mean, I know Christianity, and CIA's idea

0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:27.800
<v Speaker 5>of Christianity that she preached wasn't Christianity like Christians would know.

0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:31.679
<v Speaker 5>It's almost a fabrication of Christianity. You know, there are

0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:35.040
<v Speaker 5>different sects in Satanism. Which one is she following? And

0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:38.520
<v Speaker 5>I realized, oh my goodness, she's she's following everything and nothing.

0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:40.640
<v Speaker 5>She took a little bit from the earth. From there,

0:24:40.880 --> 0:24:44.440
<v Speaker 5>she actually copied even American serial killers, a little bit

0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:46.240
<v Speaker 5>of Charles Manson, you can see a bit of Sons

0:24:46.280 --> 0:24:52.920
<v Speaker 5>of Samday, and she just called that whole thing Satanism.

0:24:53.080 --> 0:24:56.800
<v Speaker 2>Cecilia has studied masters of manipulation, and she knew enough

0:24:56.840 --> 0:24:59.679
<v Speaker 2>about the Bible to break together whatever she found to

0:24:59.760 --> 0:25:03.840
<v Speaker 2>can't under the effect she was after her twisted form

0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:07.920
<v Speaker 2>of faith created a shadowy kingdom, and Cecilia cast herself

0:25:07.960 --> 0:25:12.120
<v Speaker 2>as the queen. And as Detective Susette discovered, this kingdom

0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:13.760
<v Speaker 2>was built on some careful study.

0:25:14.040 --> 0:25:17.159
<v Speaker 1>When we went to search the apartment, we had a warren.

0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:23.679
<v Speaker 2>Early on in her investigation, Detective Susette was granted a

0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:26.160
<v Speaker 2>search warrant based on her discussions with Rhea.

0:25:26.600 --> 0:25:29.960
<v Speaker 1>I went into Cecilia's room, started looking. I came upon

0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:34.199
<v Speaker 1>to Colonel Yonker's occult books that he wrote. It was

0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:35.640
<v Speaker 1>hidden the two books.

0:25:36.640 --> 0:25:38.240
<v Speaker 2>Suzette page through the books.

0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:41.879
<v Speaker 1>I saw on certain pages these little notes made in

0:25:41.960 --> 0:25:44.880
<v Speaker 1>it as if she ah this I can use, Okay,

0:25:45.080 --> 0:25:49.520
<v Speaker 1>this I can use. It was like she needed info

0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:53.720
<v Speaker 1>from the occult to present to the people for them

0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:57.119
<v Speaker 1>to believe that she was actually a Satanist. And that

0:25:57.440 --> 0:26:00.840
<v Speaker 1>was how I picked up, she knew a thing about

0:26:00.880 --> 0:26:01.520
<v Speaker 1>the occult.

0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:06.119
<v Speaker 2>Detectives Susette suspicions were confirmed when she spoke to Cecilia.

0:26:06.160 --> 0:26:09.639
<v Speaker 1>Started asking her some questions about the occult, and she

0:26:09.680 --> 0:26:10.560
<v Speaker 1>couldn't answer me.

0:26:11.119 --> 0:26:13.960
<v Speaker 2>Then Cecilia told the detective that she had the power

0:26:14.000 --> 0:26:17.040
<v Speaker 2>to shape shift, an ability left over from her days

0:26:17.080 --> 0:26:17.920
<v Speaker 2>as a Satanist.

0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:20.320
<v Speaker 1>And I said, oh, so you can shape shift. Then

0:26:20.320 --> 0:26:24.080
<v Speaker 1>she said yes, she can. Said okay, let me put

0:26:24.080 --> 0:26:27.280
<v Speaker 1>you into handcuffs and then you shape shift into a

0:26:27.320 --> 0:26:29.760
<v Speaker 1>little bird for me, and then you come out of

0:26:29.800 --> 0:26:33.920
<v Speaker 1>my handcuffs. And then suddenly she jumps at the back

0:26:34.000 --> 0:26:36.520
<v Speaker 1>of her couch and she sits there and she chips

0:26:36.640 --> 0:26:40.719
<v Speaker 1>like a little you know, a little chip sounds. Now

0:26:40.720 --> 0:26:43.879
<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking, oh, you look ridiculous, And I said, Celia, really,

0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:47.239
<v Speaker 1>I'm talking shape shifting. You're still a human. You know,

0:26:48.000 --> 0:26:49.800
<v Speaker 1>you have to shape shift. You have to get out

0:26:49.880 --> 0:26:53.600
<v Speaker 1>of my handcuffs. And she couldn't. Then even she told her,

0:26:53.680 --> 0:26:56.040
<v Speaker 1>you look ridiculous, get off your couch and answer my question.

0:26:56.480 --> 0:27:00.960
<v Speaker 2>That was when Cecilia's facade dropped. She stopped pretending and

0:27:01.000 --> 0:27:04.399
<v Speaker 2>acted like nothing had happened. Su said, took off the

0:27:04.440 --> 0:27:07.640
<v Speaker 2>handcuffs and continued her line of questioning she.

0:27:07.760 --> 0:27:10.959
<v Speaker 1>Was never a Sitanist. Maybe she dabbled as a thirteen

0:27:11.040 --> 0:27:14.159
<v Speaker 1>year old, what even, But she knew nothing about occult.

0:27:14.320 --> 0:27:15.560
<v Speaker 1>She just was pertaining.

0:27:16.119 --> 0:27:21.520
<v Speaker 2>Cecilia's only devotion was siss Cecilia. It was always about her, well,

0:27:21.840 --> 0:27:23.240
<v Speaker 2>her and her other fixation.

0:27:23.880 --> 0:27:25.919
<v Speaker 3>I just want to do this. There is no satan

0:27:25.960 --> 0:27:30.119
<v Speaker 3>mess some understint. It's bad shooting, nothing to do with it.

0:27:30.119 --> 0:27:38.960
<v Speaker 3>It's pure revenge. So she lost them act for so.

0:27:39.080 --> 0:27:42.160
<v Speaker 2>I suppose the answer to our question is a resounding yes.

0:27:42.880 --> 0:27:46.399
<v Speaker 2>The whole Satanism thing became a distraction because that's exactly

0:27:46.440 --> 0:27:51.040
<v Speaker 2>what Cecilia wanted. That's how she avoided getting caught. But

0:27:51.119 --> 0:27:55.040
<v Speaker 2>what about Colonel the Yager? Was he her willing ally?

0:27:55.320 --> 0:27:58.720
<v Speaker 2>Perhaps he was afraid of her, Perhaps she paid him off.

0:27:59.520 --> 0:28:03.840
<v Speaker 2>Perhaps he was just friends with Drees, Cecilia's husband, and

0:28:04.359 --> 0:28:07.600
<v Speaker 2>was just doing his friend a favor. Whatever the case,

0:28:08.359 --> 0:28:12.480
<v Speaker 2>something wasn't quite right. When questioned about his involvement after

0:28:12.520 --> 0:28:17.600
<v Speaker 2>the fact, Drees denied knowing anything about EP these activities,

0:28:17.760 --> 0:28:20.880
<v Speaker 2>But journalist Jana Marx thinks this is a stretch.

0:28:21.720 --> 0:28:24.760
<v Speaker 5>He did work, not shifts. At the time. So the

0:28:25.240 --> 0:28:29.520
<v Speaker 5>possibility that he wasn't away of everything going on, but

0:28:29.720 --> 0:28:31.520
<v Speaker 5>he's deafnically aware of some of it.

0:28:33.480 --> 0:28:37.800
<v Speaker 2>And here's Kobus Yonker again, Suzette's mentor and founder of

0:28:37.840 --> 0:28:40.440
<v Speaker 2>the Occult Related Crimes Unit up till now.

0:28:40.480 --> 0:28:42.400
<v Speaker 5>I will never believe that he didn't know anything that

0:28:42.480 --> 0:28:43.000
<v Speaker 5>was going on.

0:28:43.400 --> 0:28:44.360
<v Speaker 2>He denied everything.

0:28:44.400 --> 0:28:46.920
<v Speaker 5>He doesn't He didn't even know that Cecilia was involved.

0:28:46.920 --> 0:28:50.280
<v Speaker 2>That's the biggest life. I mean, he had to know something.

0:28:50.880 --> 0:28:54.000
<v Speaker 2>It was all going on right under his nose. Plus

0:28:54.280 --> 0:28:56.960
<v Speaker 2>Drees benefited from all the money that was coming in,

0:28:57.560 --> 0:28:59.920
<v Speaker 2>the money that was certainly not going to an orphan.

0:29:00.520 --> 0:29:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Suzanne and Ben put it into perspective for us.

0:29:04.040 --> 0:29:09.920
<v Speaker 1>Reece was a sergeant. Cecilia did not work. So sergeant's

0:29:09.920 --> 0:29:14.800
<v Speaker 1>salary is to laugh about it's very low. Now you

0:29:15.240 --> 0:29:19.640
<v Speaker 1>step into this three bedroom place, what'd you see? First

0:29:19.680 --> 0:29:23.080
<v Speaker 1>thing you see is these two kids playing on a

0:29:23.280 --> 0:29:28.840
<v Speaker 1>huge TV, big screen TV. Now, I'm a captain. I

0:29:28.920 --> 0:29:30.680
<v Speaker 1>cannot afford that.

0:29:31.480 --> 0:29:35.520
<v Speaker 5>His wife buys him big skinn TV, she buys him.

0:29:36.000 --> 0:29:39.520
<v Speaker 4>Xbox, she buys him a motorbike. She doesn't work, she

0:29:39.560 --> 0:29:41.840
<v Speaker 4>doesn't have income, and he doesn't ask a where's the

0:29:41.880 --> 0:29:42.760
<v Speaker 4>money coming from?

0:29:43.280 --> 0:29:49.640
<v Speaker 2>And that money would soon run out. It's now late

0:29:49.680 --> 0:29:53.840
<v Speaker 2>February twenty thirteen. Our friend Luke has been living in

0:29:53.840 --> 0:29:56.960
<v Speaker 2>an abject terror for months. After his first attempt to

0:29:56.960 --> 0:30:00.440
<v Speaker 2>work with the police failed, Luke tried again. He heard

0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:04.160
<v Speaker 2>there was a new officer overseeing the investigation. When Luke

0:30:04.240 --> 0:30:06.959
<v Speaker 2>met with Susette, he told her it was dire that

0:30:07.000 --> 0:30:10.760
<v Speaker 2>they act fast. Susette immediately reached out to Joshua and

0:30:10.800 --> 0:30:13.960
<v Speaker 2>told him to go into hiding. Luke told her everything

0:30:14.000 --> 0:30:17.400
<v Speaker 2>he knew, including how do Yager left him high and

0:30:17.520 --> 0:30:21.400
<v Speaker 2>dry after the tape recording debacle, and there was something

0:30:21.400 --> 0:30:25.400
<v Speaker 2>else suspicious. Colonel di Yager visited Cecilia's place in the

0:30:25.400 --> 0:30:27.040
<v Speaker 2>weeks leading up to Michaela's murder.

0:30:28.040 --> 0:30:32.200
<v Speaker 3>Those there about three to four times a week, and

0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:33.440
<v Speaker 3>he always took gifts.

0:30:34.360 --> 0:30:37.040
<v Speaker 2>Plus, as far as Luke could tell, the cops had

0:30:37.040 --> 0:30:39.040
<v Speaker 2>barely investigated Mikayla's death.

0:30:39.480 --> 0:30:43.400
<v Speaker 3>This colonel never even took fingerprints or anything at Macaylin's

0:30:43.600 --> 0:30:44.760
<v Speaker 3>cos where she was planed.

0:30:49.280 --> 0:30:52.120
<v Speaker 2>Luke met with Detective Susette at a restaurant and went

0:30:52.160 --> 0:30:54.880
<v Speaker 2>over the evidence he'd gathered. He told her about the

0:30:54.920 --> 0:30:58.920
<v Speaker 2>Whig and the recordings of epd's candid confessions. He'd brought

0:30:58.920 --> 0:31:02.000
<v Speaker 2>his friend Aria along, the one who had first introduced

0:31:02.040 --> 0:31:05.880
<v Speaker 2>him to Cecilia. But then Luke was the victim of

0:31:05.920 --> 0:31:10.280
<v Speaker 2>a suspiciously timed theft while he was meeting with Detective Suzette.

0:31:10.520 --> 0:31:14.440
<v Speaker 3>Sitting at a restaurant our conqatch startling with all our

0:31:14.440 --> 0:31:17.320
<v Speaker 3>stuff and there were some evident pieces that he wanted

0:31:17.360 --> 0:31:19.480
<v Speaker 3>to give to us. How the whole carqua's time that

0:31:19.520 --> 0:31:21.400
<v Speaker 3>I'm absolutely sure it's planned.

0:31:23.080 --> 0:31:26.800
<v Speaker 2>Luckily, the tape recording of the murder confessions wasn't in

0:31:26.800 --> 0:31:29.400
<v Speaker 2>the car. He had already handed them over to his

0:31:29.400 --> 0:31:32.240
<v Speaker 2>friend Ariya, who had been supporting him through the sting

0:31:32.320 --> 0:31:37.520
<v Speaker 2>operation and helping him communicate with Diager. Despite what had happened,

0:31:37.920 --> 0:31:40.800
<v Speaker 2>she gave the tape to Diager, hoping he would get

0:31:40.800 --> 0:31:44.200
<v Speaker 2>it into the right hands. Luke did bring Susette the

0:31:44.200 --> 0:31:47.360
<v Speaker 2>wig he'd found in Zach and Machayla's house and laid

0:31:47.400 --> 0:31:50.280
<v Speaker 2>out the whole story of all that he had witnessed.

0:31:50.080 --> 0:31:54.400
<v Speaker 1>To Suzette, fourteen fifteen pages of f and David telling

0:31:54.440 --> 0:31:58.720
<v Speaker 1>me exactly how the group works. And then he was

0:31:58.800 --> 0:32:03.320
<v Speaker 1>asked to help this conspiracy of murder with Rhea's son.

0:32:04.360 --> 0:32:07.920
<v Speaker 2>He was confident that tape was damning. Both he and

0:32:08.120 --> 0:32:10.760
<v Speaker 2>Aria had listened to it before it landed in the

0:32:10.880 --> 0:32:11.680
<v Speaker 2>yager's hands.

0:32:11.920 --> 0:32:13.920
<v Speaker 3>We took the tape and listened to it. There was

0:32:13.960 --> 0:32:14.880
<v Speaker 3>nothing wrong with it.

0:32:16.080 --> 0:32:18.680
<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately, by the time that tape made it to court,

0:32:19.440 --> 0:32:21.240
<v Speaker 2>it could no longer be played.

0:32:21.400 --> 0:32:25.440
<v Speaker 3>And it got too courte It was damaged. They couldn't

0:32:25.520 --> 0:32:31.120
<v Speaker 3>use it. So I just this old saw for me

0:32:31.200 --> 0:32:34.880
<v Speaker 3>that the police didn't follow up and do their.

0:32:34.840 --> 0:32:36.960
<v Speaker 2>Job, except for Detective Susette.

0:32:37.120 --> 0:32:40.480
<v Speaker 3>I knows she did an utmost based but if they

0:32:40.600 --> 0:32:44.040
<v Speaker 3>just listened and did something, we could have prevented the

0:32:44.200 --> 0:32:46.760
<v Speaker 3>rest of the murders kind and should have been the

0:32:46.840 --> 0:32:49.840
<v Speaker 3>last one, and I would have stopped there.

0:32:51.760 --> 0:32:54.840
<v Speaker 2>Based on the evidence Luke handed her. Detective Susette felt

0:32:54.840 --> 0:32:57.760
<v Speaker 2>confident the case would go to trial. She brought it

0:32:57.800 --> 0:32:59.680
<v Speaker 2>to the state's attorney and it was passed up the

0:32:59.720 --> 0:33:00.480
<v Speaker 2>chain of command.

0:33:02.160 --> 0:33:04.920
<v Speaker 1>She agrees that she's going to put this through to

0:33:04.960 --> 0:33:09.960
<v Speaker 1>the senior style Avoca to say, give me the rast Lawrence.

0:33:10.760 --> 0:33:14.000
<v Speaker 2>Detective Susette assumed the serial murder case would be a

0:33:14.040 --> 0:33:17.160
<v Speaker 2>clear priority. While she waited for a decision on the

0:33:17.320 --> 0:33:20.200
<v Speaker 2>arrest warrants. Arrangements were made to protect Luke.

0:33:20.760 --> 0:33:23.160
<v Speaker 3>Sothing we told us Stormy or Trench, we can give

0:33:23.200 --> 0:33:25.920
<v Speaker 3>us with this station to protective custody.

0:33:27.040 --> 0:33:31.160
<v Speaker 2>Luke finally felt safe out of Cecilia's reach. But then,

0:33:31.640 --> 0:33:35.200
<v Speaker 2>and yet another unthinkable twist, the senior state attorney claimed

0:33:35.200 --> 0:33:38.040
<v Speaker 2>there wasn't enough evidence to move forward on the case.

0:33:39.040 --> 0:33:41.880
<v Speaker 1>I just said enough, There's not enough evidence.

0:33:42.800 --> 0:33:48.240
<v Speaker 2>Despite everything Detective Susette had Luke's testimony, the recorded confessions,

0:33:48.360 --> 0:33:52.760
<v Speaker 2>the wig, the various eyewitnesses, she was denied an arrest warrant.

0:33:53.280 --> 0:33:57.280
<v Speaker 1>The senior Stigne attorney said, no, it's not consistent, like

0:33:57.400 --> 0:34:00.840
<v Speaker 1>aled wasn't consistent anybody in there. I'd mind going to

0:34:00.840 --> 0:34:02.960
<v Speaker 1>have two lives at it consistent.

0:34:03.800 --> 0:34:04.840
<v Speaker 2>Everyone was floored.

0:34:05.800 --> 0:34:09.800
<v Speaker 1>It shocked me. It shocked that the other investigating officer.

0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:13.360
<v Speaker 1>It shocked the state attorney. It was a decision, the

0:34:13.440 --> 0:34:16.719
<v Speaker 1>senior stated Atturney made that nobody knows why.

0:34:18.520 --> 0:34:21.360
<v Speaker 2>Detective Susette argued that the members of VPD could be

0:34:21.440 --> 0:34:25.480
<v Speaker 2>arrested on the charge of conspiracy to murder, then once

0:34:25.480 --> 0:34:27.839
<v Speaker 2>they had them in custody, the police could find other

0:34:27.920 --> 0:34:31.759
<v Speaker 2>charges or at least leads that they could follow to

0:34:31.760 --> 0:34:34.040
<v Speaker 2>get out in front of the murders before they continued,

0:34:34.719 --> 0:34:36.640
<v Speaker 2>but the state attorney claimed that they didn't want to

0:34:36.719 --> 0:34:40.960
<v Speaker 2>risk losing the prime suspects if their arrest tactic didn't work.

0:34:41.160 --> 0:34:44.160
<v Speaker 1>They said, no, then we're going to jeopardize the murder.

0:34:44.520 --> 0:34:46.080
<v Speaker 1>We rather take them on the murder.

0:34:47.040 --> 0:34:50.399
<v Speaker 2>In one of our earliest interviews with Detective Susette, we

0:34:50.440 --> 0:34:53.120
<v Speaker 2>asked her about how she dealt with the fact that

0:34:53.239 --> 0:34:56.840
<v Speaker 2>seven more deaths would occur before anyone would get justice.

0:34:57.400 --> 0:34:59.680
<v Speaker 2>This was actually a huge part of the reason that

0:34:59.719 --> 0:35:02.560
<v Speaker 2>she move to speak with us and help tell this story.

0:35:04.120 --> 0:35:07.800
<v Speaker 1>I don't think there's a lot of people out there

0:35:07.920 --> 0:35:11.080
<v Speaker 1>that actually knows this, and that's a huge thing for

0:35:11.239 --> 0:35:14.680
<v Speaker 1>me thinking about the families of number five to eleven.

0:35:16.200 --> 0:35:20.640
<v Speaker 2>Now a new question hung in the air. Could Cecilia's

0:35:20.680 --> 0:35:25.160
<v Speaker 2>reach have extended to the Senior State's Attorney's office. She

0:35:25.239 --> 0:35:31.120
<v Speaker 2>couldn't be that powerful, could she. On the next episode

0:35:31.120 --> 0:35:34.680
<v Speaker 2>of Queen Havoc, eventually there was no money in emm.

0:35:34.800 --> 0:35:39.480
<v Speaker 5>He introduced the Mayers as victims for a robbery because

0:35:39.760 --> 0:35:42.560
<v Speaker 5>he was under the impression they keep millions hidden in a.

0:35:42.560 --> 0:35:46.239
<v Speaker 1>Safe in cash zach Quin berserk and they had to

0:35:46.239 --> 0:35:48.160
<v Speaker 1>tell him, listen, you have to finish now because we

0:35:48.200 --> 0:35:48.920
<v Speaker 1>need to get out of.

0:35:48.960 --> 0:35:52.560
<v Speaker 5>Yet something really that is going to happen in the

0:35:52.640 --> 0:35:53.240
<v Speaker 5>near future.

0:35:57.040 --> 0:35:59.680
<v Speaker 2>Queen Havoc and Her Murder Cult is a production of

0:35:59.640 --> 0:36:04.279
<v Speaker 2>School Humans and iHeart Podcasts. Queen Havoc is hosted and

0:36:04.400 --> 0:36:09.080
<v Speaker 2>created by me Kurt Kupachick, produced and written by Jennifer Takeny,

0:36:09.480 --> 0:36:14.640
<v Speaker 2>Julia Chriscau, and Kirk Kupachick. Lead producer is Julia Chriskau.

0:36:15.280 --> 0:36:20.080
<v Speaker 2>Story editor is Saren Burnett. Senior producer is Amelia Brock.

0:36:20.400 --> 0:36:26.960
<v Speaker 2>Production manager is Daisy Church. Original music composed by Claire Campbell, editing,

0:36:27.200 --> 0:36:33.160
<v Speaker 2>sound design and scoring by Jesse Niswanger. Associate producers are

0:36:33.440 --> 0:36:38.120
<v Speaker 2>DaShan Moodley and Jamaine Kriher. Additional producing by Ben Mellman,

0:36:38.760 --> 0:36:44.320
<v Speaker 2>fact checking by Dennis Webster. Recording engineers are Graham Gibson,

0:36:44.960 --> 0:36:49.279
<v Speaker 2>Clay Hillenberg, and Josh Hook. Brenda Stein was read by

0:36:49.320 --> 0:36:55.040
<v Speaker 2>Angelique Pretorius. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, L. C. Crowley,

0:36:55.280 --> 0:36:59.399
<v Speaker 2>Brandon Barr, Jennifer ta Keeney, and Kurt Kupachick. We want

0:36:59.440 --> 0:37:02.680
<v Speaker 2>to thank all of those who so generously welcomed us

0:37:02.800 --> 0:37:07.240
<v Speaker 2>in South Africa and shared their stories. Were incredibly grateful

0:37:07.280 --> 0:37:11.360
<v Speaker 2>to you all. We also want to acknowledge how traumatic

0:37:11.560 --> 0:37:15.240
<v Speaker 2>these events are for the victims and their families. Please

0:37:15.280 --> 0:37:19.040
<v Speaker 2>respect their privacy. If you or someone you know has

0:37:19.080 --> 0:37:24.200
<v Speaker 2>been affected by cult behaviors, there are resources available, including

0:37:24.520 --> 0:37:33.120
<v Speaker 2>Voices for Dignity at Christine Murray dot com.