1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: School of Humans. This show follows the investigation of serial 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 1: murders and contains material that may be disturbing. Listener discretion advised. 3 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 2: Late October twenty twelve, the trees were just beginning to bud. 4 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 2: A series of homicides were now sending shockwaves through the 5 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 2: small town of Krugerstorp, South Africa. The local papers run 6 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 2: stories about satanic murders, citing police reports of brutal, seemingly 7 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 2: ceremonial scenes. No charges were ever filed against Ria Grunevald, 8 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 2: but as the trees blossomed, so did the doubts and 9 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: the hearts and minds of Rhea's friends and confidants. Rhea 10 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 2: couldn't leave her house without being harassed, so she used 11 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 2: her time in isolation to repair her relationship with her son, Joshua. 12 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: Rhea's years of devotion to Cecilia left Joshua feeling neglected 13 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: and resentful. Rhea felt determined to bridge the divide between them. Coincidentally, 14 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 2: that same October, Joshua became the latest fixation for Cecilia Stein. 15 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,759 Speaker 2: Since revenge against Ria was her primary goal, she could 16 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:26,279 Speaker 2: find no better target for her wrath. By this time, 17 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 2: Luke the infiltrator was being primed to officially become a 18 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 2: member of Electus Perdeis. He was spending a lot of 19 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 2: time with Cecilia and Zach and the others. Luke's primary 20 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: residence was out of town, but since he had worked 21 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 2: in Kruger's door, he liked to stay with his friends 22 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 2: Zach and Michaela. The three had become close. Luke had 23 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 2: also been an acquaintance of Natasha Berger and Joy Burnside. 24 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 3: I was murdered. I couldn't and I looked. I didn't 25 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 3: have to part with it because it feels like everybody 26 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 3: in ron Jews keeping money. 27 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 2: Believing that Zach was devastated, Luke stuck around to help 28 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 2: his friend grieve the loss of his wife, even if 29 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 2: it meant staying in the same house where she was killed. 30 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 2: Luke found Zach to be strangely unaffected by his wife's murder. 31 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 3: That the man didn't even cry about his wife. 32 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: Everyone had loved Michaela, Luke concluded. In her absence, Luke 33 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:31,839 Speaker 2: found himself slowly drawn into Cecilia's orbit. Then one day 34 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: she popped the question. 35 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 3: She asked me, do you think zackscribable of murder? 36 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: Luke had growing doubts about Zach, but not enough to 37 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 2: label him a murderer. 38 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 3: Saw below. I don't know, I don't think so, I 39 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 3: don't know. 40 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: Cecilia assured him that Zach was a loyal soldier in 41 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: her army, willing to do whatever it took to carry 42 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 2: out God's word. 43 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 3: So she told me about how he killed Pendson with 44 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 3: the X namon started every care program. 45 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 2: Right before his unbelieving eyes, it re enacted the murder. 46 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 2: Luke was horrified. His worst fears confirmed his friend Zach 47 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: was indeed a killer, and now Luke was suddenly profoundly 48 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: scared for his own life. He'd gotten too close to Cecilia, 49 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: and like Mikayla, he also knew too much. 50 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 3: And then the whole things started to make sense to you. 51 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 3: What's going on and all every boys. 52 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 2: Involved from School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. This is 53 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 2: Queen Havoc and her murder cult. I'm your host, Kurt Kubachak, 54 00:03:50,680 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 2: Episode five, Never Can You Run. One night in Cecilia's small, 55 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: dimly little apartment, Zach Valentine tells the group he's received 56 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: a sign, a vision just like the one Cecilia had 57 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: about Natasha Ria Grunivald's son, Joshua should be their next target. 58 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 2: Then Marinda chimes in. Turns out she also received a 59 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: sign about Joshua's future on Earth. This tract with the plans, 60 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 2: Cecilia already started plotting to hit Ria Grunivald where it 61 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 2: would hurt the most. 62 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 3: So they cornered me, and they say that I must 63 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 3: be Zach's right hand man. I must help him to 64 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 3: murder Joshua. 65 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 2: In a matter of months, Zach had evolved from husband, 66 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 2: friend and frequent host to a cold, calculating murderer, and 67 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 2: Luke was being groomed to join their sadistic form of worship. 68 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 2: To Cecilia's steying, I keep. 69 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 3: Myself cool that in the inside I was ripped the 70 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 3: thought and day's night time to go with cry and stuff. 71 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 3: Then I must get into this guide, thinking and praying 72 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 3: every night how to avoid this. 73 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 2: Luke was having a crisis, realizing that his initial impulse 74 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 2: to infiltrate the group was a bit naive. He placed 75 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: himself in the crosshairs of real killers, and by the 76 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 2: time he came face to face with this reality, the 77 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 2: one in which he might very likely be murdered, he 78 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: was in too deep. Now he was spending his nights 79 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 2: in Zach's passenger seat, stalking their next victim and trying 80 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 2: desperately to think of ways to thwart Zach. 81 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 3: Every night they went through and spied on this guy. 82 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 3: Are we What's talk? A couple of times, driving to 83 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 3: his house, and then he played volleyball day in Randburgh. 84 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 2: Jana Marx's book describes EPD placing hidden cameras in the 85 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: trees outside Joshua's home. One evening, Zach trailed him into 86 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: a bar and slipped something in his drink. J Zach's dismay. 87 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 2: It seemed to have no effect, but they were getting 88 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: closer and the walls were closing in on. 89 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 3: Luke to Nithis tonight, They're gonna kill him and then 90 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 3: I'll just come up with excuses or all do anything 91 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 3: in my pala to something. 92 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 2: When Joshua's active, outgoing lifestyle made him hard to track, 93 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 2: EPD decided to try the same tactic they'd used with 94 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 2: Ben Dixon. They would make an appointment. Luke made the 95 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 2: first call to Internet Solutions, the company Joshua worked for, 96 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: and requested a house call, but Luke couldn't get him 97 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: to nail down a time, which makes sense. Joshua worked 98 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 2: in systems, I not a help desk. So Marinda tried next. 99 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 2: She said she needed help connecting her home WiFi. Joshua 100 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 2: was polite, but instead of agreen to come over, he 101 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,239 Speaker 2: referred her to one of his peers. As EPD ramped 102 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: up its tactics, Luke kept trying to stall. 103 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 3: I was doing everything in my power that I've worked 104 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 3: with people. Luckily they believed all the bullshit I feeded them. 105 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 3: It's almost like a split personality in the day when 106 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 3: I'm with him, I'm this type of person, but I'm 107 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 3: myself in. 108 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: Horrible Meanwhile, Joshua had become a bit suspicious something about 109 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 2: this onslaught of house call requests felled off. Luke wanted 110 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: no part in the murder, so he tried to get 111 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 2: out of it by having an honest conversation with Cecilia. 112 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 2: Luke thought he was dealing with a rational mind, and 113 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: how do you think Cecilia responded well? She returned to 114 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: scripture reminded them that they were God's soldiers, following in 115 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 2: the footsteps of King David. Luke later testified in court 116 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 2: that zach Once threatened his life After Luke questioned the 117 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 2: way Cecilia and EPD conducted themselves, he just warm. 118 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 3: You know, I started thinking like his wife ing it up. 119 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: Now, both Luke and Joshua's only hope for survival depended 120 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: on Luke's bravery. He desperately needed to collect evidence to 121 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 2: prove they were planning this murder. Then he could go 122 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 2: to the police, but he had to do it before 123 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 2: the hammers, knives, and axes came out for him. 124 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 3: I didn't know what to do anymore. I just paid 125 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 3: and I asked the Lord. It gave me strength and 126 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 3: everything and league meet because I'm gonna get caught. I'm 127 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 3: gonna die like Makaya. 128 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 2: Court hearings revealed that Cecilia ordered LaRue to dig three graves, 129 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 2: all in different locations. That way, EPD had options for 130 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 2: where to bury Joshua's body. Luke, the infiltrator, was in 131 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: over his head. 132 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 3: You are so scared, but you can't sherwance. She needed 133 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 3: Suffici reaching in your insight, because if they can get 134 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 3: a glimpse of something, especially as a cilio, is that 135 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 3: it's game over for you. 136 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 2: All systems were go, and Luke wanted out despite his 137 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 2: ever present fears, Luke kept searching for evidence to incriminate 138 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 2: the members of EPD. He needed hard proof. Luckily, finding 139 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: it didn't take too long. 140 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 3: The person that murdered McKayla, who Wonner White a we 141 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 3: equipland and I found that thing Zacks couplet. 142 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: It was time Luke went to the police. 143 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 3: We ne got very hot. That's when I wented it. 144 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: The tip of that detective is Colonel the Yager, the 145 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 2: one who was so fixated on the Satanic angle. The 146 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 2: Yager was Luke's only contact in the Cruise Door Police 147 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 2: at this time. 148 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 3: So I met this colonel one day and he gave 149 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 3: me a type recorder because if they can get the 150 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 3: confession on tape, it's a media erased. 151 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 2: It's now December twenty twelve, summer in South Africa. Dusk. 152 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 2: Luke is now working under cover for the police, summoning 153 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 2: all the courage he can muster. His plan is to 154 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 2: record the killers from EPD, get them to confess to 155 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 2: all four murders, Natasha and Joy, Pastor Reginald Bendixon and MICHAELA. Valentine. 156 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 2: Once he gets them on tape, he'll step outside of 157 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: Cassana Flats and signal to the police. At least those 158 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 2: are the orders Luke's been given. 159 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 3: I had a pocketing my least rom of my biker jacket. 160 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 3: The recorder was face. 161 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 2: He arrives at Cecilia's place. Nothing out of the order. 162 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 2: They meet their regularly. Luke plays it cool at first. 163 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 2: He has a plan to get them talking. 164 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 3: I leaded this whole conversation, and we spoke about everything. 165 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 2: You know, Luke reaches the subject of murder. It's a 166 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 2: risky move. He asks how they did it. True to 167 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 2: their nature as amateur cutthroats, Cecilia, Zach, and Mirinda openly confess, 168 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 2: boasting about the kills. 169 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 3: What everyone day. I got everybody to confess about the 170 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 3: murders and everything, and I planned the next murder. 171 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 2: That's right, all four murders, and the plans to kill 172 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: Rhea's son Joshua. As the night wears on, a bad 173 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 2: feeling creeps over Luke. This shroud of anxiety and adrenaline 174 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 2: peeks as he looks around the room and he realizes 175 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 2: Zach is missing. 176 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 3: While I was talking to Cecilia, we saw this appeared. 177 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 3: And now are they work? And you just a little voice, 178 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 3: he said, Bryan. He just just toat your stuff and go, 179 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 3: Just get out of here. 180 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 2: Luke immediately wonders, did I ask too many questions? Is 181 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 2: a silly onomy? Is Zach out there waiting for me 182 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: in the dark? 183 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 3: No, I knew, what's my time? 184 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 2: I need to go now, Luke makes up a reason 185 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 2: for why he has to bow out for the night. 186 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: With the tape still rolling in his pocket, Luke steps outside. 187 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 2: You have expects a flurry of police activity, but the 188 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 2: night is quiet. 189 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 3: Now wein' outside leaves the y and he was indeed Haldin. 190 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 3: I added one and one to gear. 191 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 2: Luke stands at the top of the Casana Flats complex steps. 192 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 2: His breath quickens. On his way down the stairs, he 193 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 2: glimpses a sign that reads danger. It's a private property sign. 194 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 2: He's read it a million times, but this time it's different. 195 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 2: That's when Luke hears that little voice once again. 196 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 3: I turned from my life. I was almost murdered th line. 197 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: First, he had to go back to Zach and Michaela's 198 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 2: to get his stuff, but he only had his motorcycle. 199 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,839 Speaker 3: So I got on my bike. I'll drive his Zack's house. 200 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 2: Fear rushes through him as he steps in his Zach's apartment. 201 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 2: Zach isn't there, thank god. Luke springs into action, calling 202 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 2: a friend to come get him. While he grabs what 203 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 2: he can took. 204 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 3: Almost stuff like the get he like a split segund. 205 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: In his panic, he can't seem to find his ID 206 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 2: card and some other personal documents. Could Zach have stolen them? 207 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 2: Anything is possible with discord. Soon his friend pulls up 208 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 2: and Luke sneaks out the back door. He jumps in 209 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 2: the car and frantically tells his friend to drive fast. 210 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 2: He's alive and that's what matters. 211 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 3: When I just got out of the gate into the bush. 212 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 3: The worth the costs coming in? You know where mad 213 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 3: your time course Montan. 214 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: After Michaela's murder, Detective Suset Kenotse was brought onto the case. 215 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 2: With her background in the occult related Crimes unit, the 216 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 2: department thought it was only apt for her to evaluate 217 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 2: these suspected Satanic slayings and lend her expertise. Unlike Colonel 218 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 2: di Yager and Captain ben Vick, Detective Susette didn't put 219 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 2: much faith in the notion that Satanists were killing innocent people. 220 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 2: She thought it was far more mundane than that. But 221 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 2: then a strange meeting with Ria. Grunivald challenged that suspicion 222 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: this happened before she had been fully briefed on Michaela's murder. 223 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 2: She wanted to hear Rhea's side of things. Rhea requested 224 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 2: that they speak in a public place. The location the diner, 225 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: the same place where Cecilia had threatened Riha months before. 226 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 2: This time, Rhea brought along a group the parishioners tact 227 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: as spiritual bodyguards. 228 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: I were sitting like in a half circle around the table, 229 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: and obviously I found that kind of odd. She told 230 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: me they are praying because Celia is a which she 231 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: can hear everything that Ria says. So while these people 232 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: sit there praying, Celia will not be able to year. 233 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 2: Ria was wary of Detective suseid you could hear. 234 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: She trusted no one because Celia installed this in her. 235 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 2: Ria was traumatized. I mean, who wouldn't be. All Ria 236 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 2: could do was lean on her faith. 237 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: She asked me the question, are you a Christian? I said, well, 238 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: it's it's irrelevant what religion I am. I'm here to 239 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: help you. There was murders that's taken place and apparently 240 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: you can help solve them. So it's irrelevant what religion 241 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: I am. But okay, I will tell you I am 242 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: a Christian. But it's good nothing to do with this. 243 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: Whether the Satanists the police were after were real or imagined. 244 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 2: Until Detective Susette confronted them, the police department would continue 245 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 2: to fumble justice, so she would have to face the 246 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 2: religious implications of these crimes objectively and head on. Lucky 247 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 2: for the people of Krueger's store, Detective Susette is not 248 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 2: someone who shies away from challenges. She's one of the 249 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: few who willingly runs towards them. In this high crime area, 250 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 2: the SAPs was overwhelmed by new cases popping up every day, 251 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 2: so it was weeks before Detective Susette Canozze was even 252 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 2: briefed on the crimes. Finally, she was called in for 253 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 2: a meeting with superiors on the police force to discuss 254 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 2: the case. Colonel de Yager was also at this meeting. 255 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 2: He sat next to her in the department's conference room 256 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 2: and insisted. 257 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: This is satanism. This is satanism because there is no 258 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: blood on the scene and they took all the blood. 259 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 2: And I was like, what as we heard last episode. 260 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 2: Colonel the Yager thought that the quantity of blood found 261 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 2: at the scene didn't match the severity of Reginald Ben 262 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: Dixon's wounds, which to him implied the killers collected the 263 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 2: blood and drank it or used it in some satanic ritual. 264 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 2: His theory didn't sit well with Detective Susette. 265 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: This guy's lying on the grass. What are you saying? 266 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: And I said, sorry, are you? And he says, oh, 267 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: I'm Colonel the Yacher. He says he's the expert on satanism. 268 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: And I thought, huh, okay, sorry, where are you from? 269 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: In my thirteen years of occult related crimes, I have 270 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: never met him, never knew about him. Nothing. What he 271 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: is saying is absolute. 272 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 3: Bullshit. 273 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: Can I say that. 274 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 2: Detective Susantte had actual science on her side. A blood 275 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 2: expert she brought in agreed that the blood had clearly 276 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 2: been absorbed by the earth and grass the victim was 277 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 2: lying on, which blew holes into Yager's theories of satanism 278 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: and witchcraft. 279 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: And ask him where did you hear this? And he 280 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: says no, He's spoken to Conel Yonker, and obviously he 281 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: does not know my connection to Colonel Yonker. 282 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 2: Colonel Yonker, founder of the Occult related Crimes unit, was 283 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 2: practically family to Susette. 284 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: And I said, okay, just hang on a minute, and 285 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: I went outside fund Colonel Yonker. I said, Colonel, who's 286 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: Connel the orcher? He says, I don't know. I said, no, man, 287 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 1: He said he's spoken to you and gave him a 288 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: little of the Krugeys doorposis, Oh, that's correct. A guy 289 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: phoned me. He says, listen, sir, I know nothing about 290 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: the occult and I'm this guys and I need to 291 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: get a cross calls in. 292 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 2: This Detective Susette was wholly convinced if the cops ever 293 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 2: wanted to solve the growing number of murders in Krugersdorp 294 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 2: and all over the country that have to give up 295 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 2: the obsession with Satanism, they were sensationalizing these crimes. But 296 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 2: perhaps that was on purpose. You see. The deeper Susette 297 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 2: waited into the serial murder investigation, the more she began 298 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 2: to notice how incompetent both the Yager and van Vic 299 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 2: were as officers. For example, remember how Mirinda's fingerprints were 300 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 2: found on the newspaper on Rhea's porch. Captain Vin Vick 301 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 2: proposed at the time that the fingerprints could have been planted. 302 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 2: He said prosecutors were concerned that Rhea could have attempted 303 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 2: to frame Mirinda. That was his claim then and he 304 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 2: maintained the explanation years later when speaking to us. 305 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 4: The reason for them not placing the case was the 306 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 4: fact that the prosecutors said that Mirinda and Rea Runavald 307 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 4: to the neighbors, and the thoughts of the prosecutor at 308 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 4: the time was that real Runivald could have taken the 309 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 4: paper from Mirenda's husband and planted it as evidence. 310 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 2: To framer, Wow, that's a bit of a reach. However, 311 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 2: according to Detective Canotes, Mirinda was released from police custody 312 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 2: for a procedural bungle. She still gets frustrated when she 313 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 2: recalls how it all went down. Ria could have framed Mirinda. 314 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 2: To her, that sounded like, well. 315 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: All shit, that's not how Mirenda got off. I can 316 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: show you look in the. 317 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 2: Doggets That's what Bamvik said to us. 318 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: No, he's lying. He just doesn't want to bring that up. 319 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: What happened was Van Vike wrote the wrong case number down, 320 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: it went to courte and when it came in Courte 321 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: Mirenda couldn't be placed in the skies because this guy's 322 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: was something about theft or something, and I said, but 323 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,719 Speaker 1: she be connected to this guys. Van Weik wrote the 324 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: wrong number down and she was let go. That is 325 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: what happened. 326 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 2: With Detective Susette. Officially at the Helm, the police would 327 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 2: be forced to stop chasing imaginary Satanists and it wouldn't 328 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 2: be long before she gathered enough evidence to scare EPD 329 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 2: in hiding. 330 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 4: It was after the Michaila story the police, you know, 331 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 4: sort of came onto the scene and they were very suspicious. 332 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 2: While the hysteria of the nineties has long passed, the 333 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 2: fear of Satanism still remains in the ether. Yet, according 334 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 2: to Detective Susette, Canose, journalist Jana Marx, Detective Ben Boysen, 335 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 2: Colonel Kobus Yonker, and almost everyone else we spoke to 336 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 2: the fact that the police jumped to this conclusion that 337 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 2: Satanists were behind the Grizzly murders only set the cops 338 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 2: off course and in doing so placed far more lives 339 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 2: in danger. But Whattyager's assessment entirely wrong. Cecilia claimed a 340 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 2: lineage of witches and that she'd been possessed by Satan, 341 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 2: even becoming his bride. Yet she gathered up a flock 342 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 2: of Christians and made them believe that she was a 343 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 2: vehicle for God's mission. It seems regardless of which side 344 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 2: she was on, Cecilia had a bit of a Messiah complex. 345 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 2: According to her, she had been tempted by Satan, and 346 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: her followers were the way out of his grasp. This 347 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 2: was the story. She told them that they were the 348 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 2: key to her salvation, and delivering her from this temptation 349 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 2: ensured all of them a special place in heaven. Together, 350 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 2: they would make God's plans real, even if doing so 351 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 2: men compromising all morals and going against their fellow humans. 352 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 2: It's all extremely convol Cult leaders often keep details so 353 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 2: vague that even their followers have trouble fully understanding what 354 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 2: all is happening. She did this with the orphanage, the 355 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 2: reasons for the murders, and even her own origin story. 356 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:16,959 Speaker 2: So we wanted to get to the bottom of her 357 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 2: actual beliefs. Did she believe in anything at all? Or 358 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 2: was this all simply a way to manipulate others for 359 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 2: her personal gain. Was Satanism just a red herring used 360 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 2: by Cecilia and maybe Diyager too to throw everyone off 361 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: the scent or is it possible that what Cecilia was 362 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 2: claiming was true? We asked Luke, who had a front 363 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 2: row seat to her chaos. Was Cecilia ever actually a Satanist? 364 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 3: Freely? Yeah, that's one of those. 365 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 2: Bullship Rhea's mentor. The psychologist F. H. Haavinga agrees with 366 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 2: Luke's assessment, havinga consulted the police on a cult and 367 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 2: satanic cases for the majority of his career. 368 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: This is not psyche, this is something else. And that's 369 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: what I said. 370 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 5: That was my advice to Colonel X, not knowing that 371 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 5: Kuba jon Got said to him exactly the same. 372 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 2: Journalist and author Jana Marx had similar opinions. 373 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 5: I realized, I mean, I know Christianity, and CIA's idea 374 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 5: of Christianity that she preached wasn't Christianity like Christians would know. 375 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 5: It's almost a fabrication of Christianity. You know, there are 376 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 5: different sects in Satanism. Which one is she following? And 377 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 5: I realized, oh my goodness, she's she's following everything and nothing. 378 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 5: She took a little bit from the earth. From there, 379 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 5: she actually copied even American serial killers, a little bit 380 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 5: of Charles Manson, you can see a bit of Sons 381 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 5: of Samday, and she just called that whole thing Satanism. 382 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 2: Cecilia has studied masters of manipulation, and she knew enough 383 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 2: about the Bible to break together whatever she found to 384 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 2: can't under the effect she was after her twisted form 385 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 2: of faith created a shadowy kingdom, and Cecilia cast herself 386 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 2: as the queen. And as Detective Susette discovered, this kingdom 387 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 2: was built on some careful study. 388 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 1: When we went to search the apartment, we had a warren. 389 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 2: Early on in her investigation, Detective Susette was granted a 390 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 2: search warrant based on her discussions with Rhea. 391 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: I went into Cecilia's room, started looking. I came upon 392 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: to Colonel Yonker's occult books that he wrote. It was 393 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: hidden the two books. 394 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 2: Suzette page through the books. 395 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: I saw on certain pages these little notes made in 396 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 1: it as if she ah this I can use, Okay, 397 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: this I can use. It was like she needed info 398 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: from the occult to present to the people for them 399 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: to believe that she was actually a Satanist. And that 400 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: was how I picked up, she knew a thing about 401 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: the occult. 402 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 2: Detectives Susette suspicions were confirmed when she spoke to Cecilia. 403 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: Started asking her some questions about the occult, and she 404 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: couldn't answer me. 405 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 2: Then Cecilia told the detective that she had the power 406 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: to shape shift, an ability left over from her days 407 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 2: as a Satanist. 408 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: And I said, oh, so you can shape shift. Then 409 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: she said yes, she can. Said okay, let me put 410 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: you into handcuffs and then you shape shift into a 411 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: little bird for me, and then you come out of 412 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: my handcuffs. And then suddenly she jumps at the back 413 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: of her couch and she sits there and she chips 414 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 1: like a little you know, a little chip sounds. Now 415 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, oh, you look ridiculous, And I said, Celia, really, 416 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,239 Speaker 1: I'm talking shape shifting. You're still a human. You know, 417 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: you have to shape shift. You have to get out 418 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: of my handcuffs. And she couldn't. Then even she told her, 419 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: you look ridiculous, get off your couch and answer my question. 420 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 2: That was when Cecilia's facade dropped. She stopped pretending and 421 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 2: acted like nothing had happened. Su said, took off the 422 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 2: handcuffs and continued her line of questioning she. 423 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,959 Speaker 1: Was never a Sitanist. Maybe she dabbled as a thirteen 424 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 1: year old, what even, But she knew nothing about occult. 425 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: She just was pertaining. 426 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 2: Cecilia's only devotion was siss Cecilia. It was always about her, well, 427 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 2: her and her other fixation. 428 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 3: I just want to do this. There is no satan 429 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 3: mess some understint. It's bad shooting, nothing to do with it. 430 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 3: It's pure revenge. So she lost them act for so. 431 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 2: I suppose the answer to our question is a resounding yes. 432 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 2: The whole Satanism thing became a distraction because that's exactly 433 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 2: what Cecilia wanted. That's how she avoided getting caught. But 434 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 2: what about Colonel the Yager? Was he her willing ally? 435 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 2: Perhaps he was afraid of her, Perhaps she paid him off. 436 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 2: Perhaps he was just friends with Drees, Cecilia's husband, and 437 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 2: was just doing his friend a favor. Whatever the case, 438 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 2: something wasn't quite right. When questioned about his involvement after 439 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 2: the fact, Drees denied knowing anything about EP these activities, 440 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 2: But journalist Jana Marx thinks this is a stretch. 441 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 5: He did work, not shifts. At the time. So the 442 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 5: possibility that he wasn't away of everything going on, but 443 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 5: he's deafnically aware of some of it. 444 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 2: And here's Kobus Yonker again, Suzette's mentor and founder of 445 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 2: the Occult Related Crimes Unit up till now. 446 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 5: I will never believe that he didn't know anything that 447 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 5: was going on. 448 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 2: He denied everything. 449 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 5: He doesn't He didn't even know that Cecilia was involved. 450 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 2: That's the biggest life. I mean, he had to know something. 451 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: It was all going on right under his nose. Plus 452 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 2: Drees benefited from all the money that was coming in, 453 00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 2: the money that was certainly not going to an orphan. 454 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 2: Suzanne and Ben put it into perspective for us. 455 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: Reece was a sergeant. Cecilia did not work. So sergeant's 456 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: salary is to laugh about it's very low. Now you 457 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: step into this three bedroom place, what'd you see? First 458 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: thing you see is these two kids playing on a 459 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: huge TV, big screen TV. Now, I'm a captain. I 460 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: cannot afford that. 461 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 5: His wife buys him big skinn TV, she buys him. 462 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 4: Xbox, she buys him a motorbike. She doesn't work, she 463 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 4: doesn't have income, and he doesn't ask a where's the 464 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 4: money coming from? 465 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 2: And that money would soon run out. It's now late 466 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 2: February twenty thirteen. Our friend Luke has been living in 467 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 2: an abject terror for months. After his first attempt to 468 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 2: work with the police failed, Luke tried again. He heard 469 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 2: there was a new officer overseeing the investigation. When Luke 470 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,959 Speaker 2: met with Susette, he told her it was dire that 471 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 2: they act fast. Susette immediately reached out to Joshua and 472 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 2: told him to go into hiding. Luke told her everything 473 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 2: he knew, including how do Yager left him high and 474 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 2: dry after the tape recording debacle, and there was something 475 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 2: else suspicious. Colonel di Yager visited Cecilia's place in the 476 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 2: weeks leading up to Michaela's murder. 477 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 3: Those there about three to four times a week, and 478 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 3: he always took gifts. 479 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 2: Plus, as far as Luke could tell, the cops had 480 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 2: barely investigated Mikayla's death. 481 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 3: This colonel never even took fingerprints or anything at Macaylin's 482 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 3: cos where she was planed. 483 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 2: Luke met with Detective Susette at a restaurant and went 484 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 2: over the evidence he'd gathered. He told her about the 485 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: Whig and the recordings of epd's candid confessions. He'd brought 486 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 2: his friend Aria along, the one who had first introduced 487 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 2: him to Cecilia. But then Luke was the victim of 488 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 2: a suspiciously timed theft while he was meeting with Detective Suzette. 489 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 3: Sitting at a restaurant our conqatch startling with all our 490 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 3: stuff and there were some evident pieces that he wanted 491 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 3: to give to us. How the whole carqua's time that 492 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 3: I'm absolutely sure it's planned. 493 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 2: Luckily, the tape recording of the murder confessions wasn't in 494 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 2: the car. He had already handed them over to his 495 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 2: friend Ariya, who had been supporting him through the sting 496 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 2: operation and helping him communicate with Diager. Despite what had happened, 497 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 2: she gave the tape to Diager, hoping he would get 498 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 2: it into the right hands. Luke did bring Susette the 499 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 2: wig he'd found in Zach and Machayla's house and laid 500 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 2: out the whole story of all that he had witnessed. 501 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: To Suzette, fourteen fifteen pages of f and David telling 502 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: me exactly how the group works. And then he was 503 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: asked to help this conspiracy of murder with Rhea's son. 504 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 2: He was confident that tape was damning. Both he and 505 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: Aria had listened to it before it landed in the 506 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 2: yager's hands. 507 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 3: We took the tape and listened to it. There was 508 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 3: nothing wrong with it. 509 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, by the time that tape made it to court, 510 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 2: it could no longer be played. 511 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 3: And it got too courte It was damaged. They couldn't 512 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 3: use it. So I just this old saw for me 513 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 3: that the police didn't follow up and do their. 514 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 2: Job, except for Detective Susette. 515 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 3: I knows she did an utmost based but if they 516 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 3: just listened and did something, we could have prevented the 517 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 3: rest of the murders kind and should have been the 518 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 3: last one, and I would have stopped there. 519 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 2: Based on the evidence Luke handed her. Detective Susette felt 520 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 2: confident the case would go to trial. She brought it 521 00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 2: to the state's attorney and it was passed up the 522 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 2: chain of command. 523 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: She agrees that she's going to put this through to 524 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: the senior style Avoca to say, give me the rast Lawrence. 525 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 2: Detective Susette assumed the serial murder case would be a 526 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 2: clear priority. While she waited for a decision on the 527 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 2: arrest warrants. Arrangements were made to protect Luke. 528 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 3: Sothing we told us Stormy or Trench, we can give 529 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 3: us with this station to protective custody. 530 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 2: Luke finally felt safe out of Cecilia's reach. But then, 531 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 2: and yet another unthinkable twist, the senior state attorney claimed 532 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 2: there wasn't enough evidence to move forward on the case. 533 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: I just said enough, There's not enough evidence. 534 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 2: Despite everything Detective Susette had Luke's testimony, the recorded confessions, 535 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 2: the wig, the various eyewitnesses, she was denied an arrest warrant. 536 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: The senior Stigne attorney said, no, it's not consistent, like 537 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: aled wasn't consistent anybody in there. I'd mind going to 538 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: have two lives at it consistent. 539 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 2: Everyone was floored. 540 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 1: It shocked me. It shocked that the other investigating officer. 541 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 1: It shocked the state attorney. It was a decision, the 542 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: senior stated Atturney made that nobody knows why. 543 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 2: Detective Susette argued that the members of VPD could be 544 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 2: arrested on the charge of conspiracy to murder, then once 545 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 2: they had them in custody, the police could find other 546 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 2: charges or at least leads that they could follow to 547 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 2: get out in front of the murders before they continued, 548 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 2: but the state attorney claimed that they didn't want to 549 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 2: risk losing the prime suspects if their arrest tactic didn't work. 550 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: They said, no, then we're going to jeopardize the murder. 551 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: We rather take them on the murder. 552 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,399 Speaker 2: In one of our earliest interviews with Detective Susette, we 553 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 2: asked her about how she dealt with the fact that 554 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 2: seven more deaths would occur before anyone would get justice. 555 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 2: This was actually a huge part of the reason that 556 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 2: she move to speak with us and help tell this story. 557 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 1: I don't think there's a lot of people out there 558 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: that actually knows this, and that's a huge thing for 559 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: me thinking about the families of number five to eleven. 560 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 2: Now a new question hung in the air. Could Cecilia's 561 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 2: reach have extended to the Senior State's Attorney's office. She 562 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 2: couldn't be that powerful, could she. On the next episode 563 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 2: of Queen Havoc, eventually there was no money in emm. 564 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 5: He introduced the Mayers as victims for a robbery because 565 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 5: he was under the impression they keep millions hidden in a. 566 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: Safe in cash zach Quin berserk and they had to 567 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: tell him, listen, you have to finish now because we 568 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 1: need to get out of. 569 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 5: Yet something really that is going to happen in the 570 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 5: near future. 571 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 2: Queen Havoc and Her Murder Cult is a production of 572 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 2: School Humans and iHeart Podcasts. Queen Havoc is hosted and 573 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 2: created by me Kurt Kupachick, produced and written by Jennifer Takeny, 574 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 2: Julia Chriscau, and Kirk Kupachick. Lead producer is Julia Chriskau. 575 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 2: Story editor is Saren Burnett. Senior producer is Amelia Brock. 576 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 2: Production manager is Daisy Church. Original music composed by Claire Campbell, editing, 577 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 2: sound design and scoring by Jesse Niswanger. Associate producers are 578 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 2: DaShan Moodley and Jamaine Kriher. Additional producing by Ben Mellman, 579 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 2: fact checking by Dennis Webster. Recording engineers are Graham Gibson, 580 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 2: Clay Hillenberg, and Josh Hook. Brenda Stein was read by 581 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 2: Angelique Pretorius. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, L. C. Crowley, 582 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,399 Speaker 2: Brandon Barr, Jennifer ta Keeney, and Kurt Kupachick. We want 583 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 2: to thank all of those who so generously welcomed us 584 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:07,240 Speaker 2: in South Africa and shared their stories. Were incredibly grateful 585 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 2: to you all. We also want to acknowledge how traumatic 586 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,240 Speaker 2: these events are for the victims and their families. Please 587 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 2: respect their privacy. If you or someone you know has 588 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 2: been affected by cult behaviors, there are resources available, including 589 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 2: Voices for Dignity at Christine Murray dot com.