Speaker 1: Welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we give you insights
Speaker 1: into the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity. I'm doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, and in each episode I have a conversation
Speaker 1: with a guest who will stimulate your mind and give
Speaker 1: you a greater understanding of yourself, others, and the world
Speaker 1: to live in. Hopefully we'll also provide a glimpse into
Speaker 1: human possibility. Thanks for listening and enjoy the podcast. Just
Speaker 1: a quick note that today's episode is going to be
Speaker 1: a rerun the next season of the Psychology Podcast we'll
Speaker 1: begin later this year. I haven't taken any break in
Speaker 1: five years of doing this podcast, so I thought it
Speaker 1: was about time to take a step back and think
Speaker 1: about how it can make this a better experience for
Speaker 1: you all. Until then, enjoy these episodes from our archives.
Speaker 1: Kristin is an Associate Professor of Human Development and Culture
Speaker 1: and the Educational Psychology Department the University of Texas at Austin.
Speaker 1: She's author of the Self Compassion Scales and the book
Speaker 1: Self Compassion, The Proven Power of being Kind to Yourself.
Speaker 1: Thanks Christin for being on the show today. Oh thanks
Speaker 1: for having me. Happy to be here. So your story
Speaker 1: of how you got interested in self compassion. Is interesting, right,
Speaker 1: the last year in grad school you became interested in Buddhism,
Speaker 1: and kind of this was an outgrowth of your interest
Speaker 1: in Buddhism. Is that right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Actually
Speaker 1: it was interesting because the very first night I went
Speaker 1: to the group to learn really meditation to help with
Speaker 1: the stress I was feeling, the woman leading the group
Speaker 1: talked a lot about self compassion, which I hadn't really
Speaker 1: been expecting and lucky for me because it really changed
Speaker 1: the course of my life that one evening. So it
Speaker 1: kind of made immediate sense to me, and I started
Speaker 1: being kinder and more supportive to myself, and I saw
Speaker 1: the impact almost immediately. Yeah, is this something that like,
Speaker 1: You've struggled with your life like most people, kind of
Speaker 1: having an inner critic that is loud. Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say I'm particularly harsh, you have really harsh
Speaker 1: and a critic is kind of like an averagely harsh
Speaker 1: and critical are pretty unkind to themselves. Well, what really
Speaker 1: made the difference for me is I didn't realize I
Speaker 1: could support myself when I needed. I was more used
Speaker 1: to relying on other people to help get me through
Speaker 1: and when those people weren't available, I was kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, up a creek without a paddle, right, So
Speaker 1: this really helped me learn that when I was upset
Speaker 1: or anxious or stress, but also of course if I
Speaker 1: was feeling shame or bad about myself, that it was
Speaker 1: a way I could really be friendly, supportive and accepting
Speaker 1: the way you know, in good times other people would
Speaker 1: be toward me. But I'd actually just gotten out of
Speaker 1: a divorce and my ex was not interested in being
Speaker 1: a kind of compassion figure to me. I had to
Speaker 1: do it myself. You know. The whole thing was really
Speaker 1: a mess. It was a very messy time in my life,
Speaker 1: which in hindsight is good because it really inspired me
Speaker 1: to embrace self compassion. There's a Buddhist teacher in Scotland
Speaker 1: who says the goal of practice is to become a
Speaker 1: compassionate mess. So really it's like, no matter what screwed
Speaker 1: up your life is, you can almost be a compassionate mess.
Speaker 1: And if you at least see that as your aim.
Speaker 1: The aim is not perfection. The aim isn't to have
Speaker 1: you you know, you know what together. The aim is
Speaker 1: just to each moment be kind compassionate, open hearted. Then really,
Speaker 1: that's a goal anyone can obtain all the time. Really, Oh,
Speaker 1: I really love that. A compassionate mess Yeah, oh my god. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's shoes like we give up our striving for perfection,
Speaker 1: and we give up this idea that we aren't supposed
Speaker 1: to make mistakes and we aren't supposed to get it wrong.
Speaker 1: Of course we are, that's what's being human. But what
Speaker 1: we can do is approach all of it with kindness
Speaker 1: and acceptance and compassion, and ultimately having our hearts open,
Speaker 1: at least for many of us, is what we're really
Speaker 1: after in life. Living in an open hearted life. I'm
Speaker 1: really interested in people the worrying disabilities and kind of
Speaker 1: showing their strengths and things of that nature. Your son
Speaker 1: was diagnosed with lautism, Is that right? Yeah? Did you
Speaker 1: see The Horseboy? No? But I saw an interview with you.
Speaker 1: Should I see the film? Sure? Was on an Amazon
Speaker 1: from you can rent it. Yeah. We took a crazy
Speaker 1: trip to Mongolia writing from shaman to shaman on horseback.
Speaker 1: Believe it or not, at worked. I very much had
Speaker 1: no choice in that situation except to be open minded,
Speaker 1: and we tried everything, including shamanism. It's really horses. My
Speaker 1: son responded radically well to being an horseback. That's why
Speaker 1: he learned all his own language. So we actually have
Speaker 1: an equine therapy center. Now we run an equine therapy
Speaker 1: center for other kids. Yeah, but I can tell you
Speaker 1: self compassion save my you know what, over and over again.
Speaker 1: I don't know how I would have gotten through. He's
Speaker 1: not through in one piece. I mean, the fact that
Speaker 1: I managed to get through and I think be stronger
Speaker 1: from it is largely due to my self compassion practice.
Speaker 1: And I hope you teach him how to have some
Speaker 1: self compassion for himself as well. No, I do. I
Speaker 1: do try, you know. I teach to put his hand
Speaker 1: on his card and to breathe deeply. So well, a
Speaker 1: very very loving, sweet kid, sweetheart. Okay, what is the
Speaker 1: relationship between mindfulness and self compassion. There's a very strong
Speaker 1: link there, right, Yeah, Well, see, the way to fine
Speaker 1: self compassion is I define mindfulness as one of the
Speaker 1: core components are really a foundational aspect of self compassion.
Speaker 1: So from my point of view, you can't really be
Speaker 1: self compassionate unless you're being mindful. So right to the
Speaker 1: extent that mindfulness gives us stability to be with things
Speaker 1: as they are, even if we don't like things the
Speaker 1: way they are, but to be with it, to turn forward,
Speaker 1: especially painful feelings, without immediately trying to resist or avoid.
Speaker 1: We have to be mindful of our suffering in order
Speaker 1: to have self compassion. If we're just avoiding it, we
Speaker 1: aren't thinking about it. We're just resisting it, trying to
Speaker 1: fix the problem, fix ourselves. We can't really hold the
Speaker 1: space needed to open our hearts to ourself. Also, if
Speaker 1: you have self compassion without mindfulness, what could happen is
Speaker 1: you could fall into something that looks like self compassion
Speaker 1: that isn't really like. For instance, I'm gonna throw compassion
Speaker 1: at myself to try to make the pain goal away. Right,
Speaker 1: We're gonna put my hand on my heart, hopefully, and
Speaker 1: maybe I won't have to feel pain anymore if I
Speaker 1: do this, if I sue the comfort myself. The fact,
Speaker 1: if you use self compassion as a way to make
Speaker 1: the pain goalway, if you lose your mindfulness, it stops working.
Speaker 1: So we say self compassion. We give ourselves compassion not
Speaker 1: to feel better, but because we feel bad. So, in
Speaker 1: other words, when we're feeling bad. We fully accept that
Speaker 1: this is how it is without resistance, and yet we
Speaker 1: also say, ah, what could I do to help? You know,
Speaker 1: there's that kind compassionate response. So mindfulness is necessary for compassion,
Speaker 1: but compassion, I mean people have various points of view
Speaker 1: about this. Certainly compassion isn't always maybe even relevant. If
Speaker 1: you're mindful of eating or raisin, for instance, compassion doesn't
Speaker 1: really come into play. Compassion also includes being kind to
Speaker 1: the person who is suffering and also recognizing that this
Speaker 1: is part of the shared human condition. Sometimes if you're
Speaker 1: mindful of eating a raisin, I mean, these needs have
Speaker 1: the elements of compassion aren't really wellvant Maybe there's probably
Speaker 1: not suffering, and you don't give compassion to the raisin, right,
Speaker 1: but you give compassion to a person who is suffering
Speaker 1: will mindfully accepting that suffering is present. There's a sense
Speaker 1: of care, kindness, you're emotionally moved by the suffering. Oh
Speaker 1: that's you know, poortying. I'm kindness for encouragement. That's the
Speaker 1: response of the heart. And then also common humanity is
Speaker 1: it's very very important numbering that the human experience is
Speaker 1: one of imperfection. People often forget this not logically they
Speaker 1: know it logically, but irrationally, when they make a mistake,
Speaker 1: or they fail, or some big struggle happens in their life,
Speaker 1: they feel this should not be happening. Very powerful emotional reaction.
Speaker 1: This should not be happening. Something's wrong, because this is
Speaker 1: how this is abnormal, as if everyone else in the
Speaker 1: world is living this perfectly happy, normal life with no problems,
Speaker 1: and it's just me who's failed. It just made who
Speaker 1: said that stupid comment or just maybe got that diagnosis,
Speaker 1: And that sense of should and abnormality is really psychologically destabilizing.
Speaker 1: It makes us feel cut off and isolated from others.
Speaker 1: So compassion compassion actually means to suffer with the term
Speaker 1: come passion, to suffer with for with our onway with
Speaker 1: when our own suffering. That means we recognize that this
Speaker 1: is a shared experience, it's not just us, and that
Speaker 1: actually allows any moment of suffering when health with self
Speaker 1: passion to be a moment of connection to others. Very
Speaker 1: very important for kind of stabilizing us and allowing us
Speaker 1: to feel yeah, more loving and connected toward everyone, not
Speaker 1: just ourselves. It's so obvious that you are very passionate
Speaker 1: about your research. Yes, it's really a way of life.
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I'm the classic example of a
Speaker 1: scientist practitioner. You know, I practice self compassion in my
Speaker 1: personal life. I teach people self compassion. I spend a
Speaker 1: large part of my time teaching people self compassion. I've
Speaker 1: developed a curriculum with my colleague Chrispermur to teach self compassion.
Speaker 1: So the science for me supplements that. But you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes I admit I'm not the total pure scientist because
Speaker 1: I really study self compassion to prove but I already know,
Speaker 1: which maybe is not the most subjective stance. Nonetheless, you know,
Speaker 1: I know it works. I've seen it work, I felt
Speaker 1: it work. So for me, the science is a way
Speaker 1: of trying to understand how it works, and of course
Speaker 1: gives support for it. You do do good science. Oh
Speaker 1: thank you. No, I mean it's not. But I say
Speaker 1: that I'm kind of joking. Now. Hopefully it don't let
Speaker 1: my biases that get involved in the science. But you know,
Speaker 1: I kind of like to be upfront about it because
Speaker 1: I am passionate about it and I do believe in it.
Speaker 1: I'm not pretending to be neutral. I think other people.
Speaker 1: If other people want to show the problems of self compassion,
Speaker 1: they're welcome to I believe in the scientific method, but
Speaker 1: I've really just been I've seen so many people whose
Speaker 1: life have radically transform when they started being more self
Speaker 1: compassionate to themself. I know, it's a really powerful tool
Speaker 1: that anyone, anyone can learn to help change the life
Speaker 1: for the better. Yeah, I'd like to take your eight
Speaker 1: week course. Yeah. Well, we just started teacher training, so
Speaker 1: we've trained about six hundred teachers. It's still growing compared
Speaker 1: to Mindfulness based stress Reduction. We're tiny. But can I
Speaker 1: be trained? Yeah, you can. You have to take the
Speaker 1: course first, but yeah, so you can take the course
Speaker 1: either in your local community as an a week course.
Speaker 1: We also offer the Holy Week course and a five
Speaker 1: day intensive. You can find it all on the Center
Speaker 1: for Mindful Self Compassion website. But yeah, it's really taking
Speaker 1: off like wildfire, and a lot of teachers teach both
Speaker 1: Mindfulness based Stress Reduction and our self Compassion program because
Speaker 1: they really compliment each other. You know, we can kind
Speaker 1: of talk about explicitly what mindfulness based stress reduction kind
Speaker 1: of talks about. Implessly. Self compassion is there, but it's
Speaker 1: more implicit. We really really explicitly teach the skill, and
Speaker 1: again we teach a little bit of mindfulness, but we
Speaker 1: can't go deeply into it the way it is. So
Speaker 1: a lot of people are actually saying that taking both
Speaker 1: programs is very useful. I think so wonderful. What is
Speaker 1: the difference between self esteem and compassion? There is a difference.
Speaker 1: There's a difference. Yeah. So when I first introduced the
Speaker 1: idea of self compassion into the field, if I say
Speaker 1: introduced the idea, I mean other people like Carl Rodgers
Speaker 1: had talked about self acceptance. It wasn't like I came
Speaker 1: up with the idea, but I kind of it was
Speaker 1: the first to operationally define and measure it. So I
Speaker 1: really positioned it as an alternative to self esteem because
Speaker 1: I was actually coming off a two year post doc
Speaker 1: working with the self esteem researcher, becoming very familiar with
Speaker 1: all the problems with self esteem, not that there are
Speaker 1: problems with having self esteem, that there are problems with
Speaker 1: trying to get it right. We know very clearly that,
Speaker 1: for instance, reason kids start to bully other kids is
Speaker 1: because they want to feel good about themselves. The tempt
Speaker 1: to get high self esteem. The reason people are prejudiced.
Speaker 1: Self esteem is very contingent. We have at one moment
Speaker 1: and then we fail and it deserves us. So I
Speaker 1: was studying all this in my postdoc, and I was
Speaker 1: practicing self compassion in my personal life, and I realized
Speaker 1: that really what self compassion does, and the evidence supports this,
Speaker 1: it offers all the same mental health benefits of self esteem.
Speaker 1: Right with self esteem, great in terms of less anxiety,
Speaker 1: less depression, more happiness, same with self compassion. But it's
Speaker 1: not contingent the way self esteem is. And now there
Speaker 1: was when we fail. That's precisely when self compassion steps in,
Speaker 1: exactly when self esteem deserves us. And it's not it's
Speaker 1: not based on feeling better than others. It's yeah, I
Speaker 1: got to do is be your average, compassionate mess like
Speaker 1: everyone else. You don't have to be you know, special,
Speaker 1: above average. And it's not LinkedIn narcissism the way self
Speaker 1: esteem is. So yeah, it seems to be really offering
Speaker 1: the benefits of self esteem. It's kind of like a
Speaker 1: type of unconditional self esteem. So researchers have talk to
Speaker 1: about unconditional self esteem and it's like, well, that's great.
Speaker 1: But how do I get it? Well, this is one
Speaker 1: way to get it. I love that. It's like you're
Speaker 1: married to yourself for better or worse, and sick for health. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So it's like, do you wanna do you want to
Speaker 1: have be an inner enemy or an inner ally that's
Speaker 1: really the choice we all face, and most of us
Speaker 1: walk down with an inner enemy inside our heads, cutting
Speaker 1: us down, undermining us, pulling the rug out from underneath us.
Speaker 1: And when we switch that relationship and start being an
Speaker 1: inner supportive friend, we are so much We are much
Speaker 1: stronger and more capable of dealing with adversity. Some people
Speaker 1: think self compassion is weak. Is it weak to have
Speaker 1: an inner allies and posted an inner enemy? No, it's
Speaker 1: an import it's strict. But people really are afraid that
Speaker 1: self compassion means being weak in fact, so if they do,
Speaker 1: people have this reaction they oh, self compassion, I'm going
Speaker 1: to be soft and weak and what? But I think
Speaker 1: people haven't really thought about it deeply, right, So the
Speaker 1: idea of being kind seen as weakness, whereas being harsh
Speaker 1: right is a strength. But in fact, internally we're harsh
Speaker 1: with ourselves to we cut ourselves down. We are weakening ourselves.
Speaker 1: We're undermining our self confidence, whereas if we're kind, supportive
Speaker 1: and encouraging, we're strengthening ourselves. I think people just don't
Speaker 1: really think it through clearly, and our culture doesn't encourage it.
Speaker 1: But if you look at the coping literature, like that's
Speaker 1: coming back to my rack. In Afghanistan, for instance, they
Speaker 1: find that the level of self compassion is more predictive
Speaker 1: of whether or not they'll developed PTSD the level of
Speaker 1: combat exposure that they face. There's absolutely a strength that
Speaker 1: helps us cope with life's biggest challenges, to be an
Speaker 1: inner friend and inner support and inner ally wi we
Speaker 1: need most right, I love it, No, I love it.
Speaker 1: I love it red so compassion. By the way, if
Speaker 1: you were your age you are now in the sixties,
Speaker 1: you would be even more popular. I think, well, I
Speaker 1: don't know, because you know what's beautiful now that wasn't
Speaker 1: possible in the six This is a whole field of
Speaker 1: people who are mixing kind of personal practice Buddhism typically meditation,
Speaker 1: with science, rigorous science. In the sixties it was a
Speaker 1: little more hippie hippy, you know. And my hippie name
Speaker 1: is blossom, free Flower and I definitely had my part
Speaker 1: of my hippie childhood, so a lot of these ideas.
Speaker 1: You mean, yeah, my father it was my official name.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so I definitely spent some time in the
Speaker 1: hippie world. The thing about it is there's an element
Speaker 1: to it that was kind of flaky. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: a real genuine, good spirituality. I grew up with rom
Speaker 1: Das's be here Now coffee book on my table. I
Speaker 1: think it's a brilliant book. We hear in nor it's
Speaker 1: really a mindfulness book before it's time. But because there
Speaker 1: was a lot of lack of credibility, we got mixed
Speaker 1: up and a lot of personality cults and things went
Speaker 1: haywharren't and things weren't done responsibly. I think whereas now
Speaker 1: with this approach meditation combined with science, I feel like
Speaker 1: we've got the good, that spiritual movement, but without the
Speaker 1: I don't know if flakiness is the only word I
Speaker 1: could think of it. With more rigor, more more reality,
Speaker 1: more our feet, more firmly planted on the ground in
Speaker 1: a way that's very useful. So I'm not in the sixties.
Speaker 1: I take it back. You've convinced me you're ther perfect
Speaker 1: time period to do your work. I mean, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: and really, I mean my work rides on the coattails
Speaker 1: very closely in the mindfulness movement. If it wasn't people
Speaker 1: like John Cabizin and Pritchie Davison and all these people
Speaker 1: doing rigorous scientific research on mindfulness, my work wouldn't have
Speaker 1: been as readily accepted. So I definitely came at the
Speaker 1: right time in terms of other people had done the
Speaker 1: work for me, so I could kind of slot myself in.
Speaker 1: But absolutely I agree. And you developed a scale, a
Speaker 1: twenty six item long. That's the longest version of the scale,
Speaker 1: and then you have a shorter version, and it measures
Speaker 1: different aspects like self kindness, self judgment, common humanity, isolation, mindfulness,
Speaker 1: over identified. Yes, the various measures both compassionate and uncompassionate behavior.
Speaker 1: The scale, because it was kind of the only game
Speaker 1: in town, has come under criticism lately about its psychometric
Speaker 1: validity across populations. And I just published a new article
Speaker 1: that uses a new form. It's probably not relevant to
Speaker 1: your readers, but basically really establishes the validity of the
Speaker 1: Self Compassion Scale using a new form of analysis. So
Speaker 1: this is good it kind of. I just collected at
Speaker 1: a largely set five different samples using a new type
Speaker 1: of analysis that really shows to my point of view.
Speaker 1: I'm happy with the scale. I think it stands up
Speaker 1: great because you've done there's so many studies have done
Speaker 1: with this scale. Yeah, hundreds, hundreds, Yeah, And I just
Speaker 1: want to just review some of the major findings, like
Speaker 1: really almost like every aspect of life, human life, you've
Speaker 1: found a correlation. Is that something that it doesn't help?
Speaker 1: Probably not with cooking skill or you know, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a There's only been one published study that shows
Speaker 1: that it might not be such a good thing for
Speaker 1: men only who are low in conscientiousness in the context
Speaker 1: of romantic relationships. It was like a very and I
Speaker 1: think what's happening is men who are low in conscientiousness
Speaker 1: usually self compassion goes with more conscientiousness. You got this
Speaker 1: weird subpopulation. I think what happens They found that men
Speaker 1: who were low on conscientiousness, if you told them to
Speaker 1: be more self compassionate, they actually used it as a
Speaker 1: way to evade taking responsibility in their which I see
Speaker 1: is they were kind of not really opening clearly their
Speaker 1: heart to themselves. They were just using. You can misuse
Speaker 1: anything if you're clever enough. So that's kind of what
Speaker 1: I see what was happening. But pretty much, yeah, either
Speaker 1: it seems to be linked to pretty much all good
Speaker 1: things psychological. But if you think it's such a deep
Speaker 1: process again being an inner friend, whether an inner enemy
Speaker 1: as opposed to inner enemy, it's almost nothing that that's
Speaker 1: not going to help. But us wondering is can you
Speaker 1: be really high in self compassion and really low and
Speaker 1: compassion for others? What if you like and self compassion
Speaker 1: but your well in agreeableness on the big five? What's
Speaker 1: going on there in terms of compassion for others? It
Speaker 1: almost never happens. I want to play with some data.
Speaker 1: I haven't figured out how it can do the analysis,
Speaker 1: but we created a compassion for other scale using the
Speaker 1: same components, very structurally similar, including the same endpoint, so
Speaker 1: you can kind of look at how often you're compassionate
Speaker 1: versus self compassionate. Almost everybody is more compassionate to others
Speaker 1: than themselves, significantly more so. As a matter of fact,
Speaker 1: under among college undergraduates, they aren't even significantly related. The
Speaker 1: way people treat themselves and others is radically different. In
Speaker 1: almost every single case, people are more compassionate to others
Speaker 1: than to themselves. I think that two percent of people
Speaker 1: and but I'm not sure if we're doing the analysis right,
Speaker 1: but it seemed like two percent of people were significantly
Speaker 1: more compassionate to themselves than others. So I don't know
Speaker 1: what's going on with those two percent, but it's very
Speaker 1: very tiny, right. Yeah, people are much harder on themselves
Speaker 1: than others, and I think there's reasons for that, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it doesn't happen very often that you're compassionate to self
Speaker 1: and not to others. Yeah. I think that's a good point.
Speaker 1: And I think it's important that you distinguish self compassion
Speaker 1: from narcissism, and it's very clear that there are different things. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Then you might say I'm being self compassionate, which is
Speaker 1: why I don't care about you, which is wanting to
Speaker 1: blow off seeing my kids and move to why or something,
Speaker 1: you know whatever, that's not really self compassion. So I
Speaker 1: think if it's true self compassion, which is partly what
Speaker 1: it needs, the mindfulness, because mindfulness is where the clear
Speaker 1: scene is, and just like looking things straight and face
Speaker 1: and saying yep, I own that I did that or
Speaker 1: this is my responsibility. The mindfulness helps ground us and
Speaker 1: see clearly. And then the kindness is the warm hearted
Speaker 1: response to that. And common humanity is recognizing that it's
Speaker 1: not just me this stuff everyone faces, but you need
Speaker 1: all three components otherwise it could morph into self pity
Speaker 1: or narcissism or self indulgence. One of the three components
Speaker 1: tell oh sorry, okay. Well, So the three components, and
Speaker 1: each one kind of has a positive compassion of versus
Speaker 1: uncompassionate aspect. So the first is being kind, supportive, and
Speaker 1: caring to yourself, treating yourself like you a good treated,
Speaker 1: good friend, as opposed to being harshly, self critical and judgmental,
Speaker 1: which is the way actually most of us are with ourselves.
Speaker 1: The second component involves seeing our imperfection and suffering as
Speaker 1: part of the shared human condition. This is normal. It's
Speaker 1: normal to make mistakes, it's normal to fail, it's normal
Speaker 1: to have struggles, as opposed to feeling isolated in that
Speaker 1: as if somehow everyone else was leaving a normal, perfect
Speaker 1: life and it's just me who's failed or struggling. And
Speaker 1: then the third component is the mindfulness right being able
Speaker 1: to be aware when we're suffering and see the kind
Speaker 1: of balance, stable manner, clear sided manner, as opposed to
Speaker 1: what I call overidentification. And that's really a process where
Speaker 1: we run away with the dramatic storyline of oh, this
Speaker 1: is so terrible, so we're seeing that ever happened, you
Speaker 1: know this is bad, and therefore I am bad. That
Speaker 1: kind of emotional dysregulation really would be the opposite of mindfulness.
Speaker 1: So I call it three components. But if you consider
Speaker 1: what the positive and the negative aspect is really sick,
Speaker 1: Oh cool, Okay, So you need all those components. You
Speaker 1: need those components because if not, it can morph. Like
Speaker 1: they say in Buddhism that pity is the ner enemy
Speaker 1: of compassion. So if you were just being kind to yourself,
Speaker 1: but I had the quality of kind of feeling sorry
Speaker 1: for yourself, if you weren't remembering that, hey, this is
Speaker 1: everyone suffers, and if you were, you know, getting lost
Speaker 1: in an exaggerated storyline of how bad things are, If
Speaker 1: you weren't seeing things clearly, self compassion could easily turn
Speaker 1: into self pity. We need the mindfulness and the common
Speaker 1: humanity to keep it from being self pity and to
Speaker 1: keep it just being this stable, clear sighted, open hearted
Speaker 1: way of relating to yourself. Are there some people that
Speaker 1: really shouldn't be self compassionate? Like do you think Donald
Speaker 1: Trump like could use more self compassion? I don't know.
Speaker 1: Going on with Stutle, I think that's one area that
Speaker 1: we need to look at more closely. And I'm not
Speaker 1: a clinical psychologist, but some people have asked me should
Speaker 1: you teach narcissists self compassion? And I actually don't know
Speaker 1: the answer to that. I also know there are different
Speaker 1: types of narcissism, and sometimes narcissism is stemming from underlying
Speaker 1: self hate, and in that case it may be a
Speaker 1: good thing. If not, I'm not sure At this point.
Speaker 1: I don't think we can clearly say that there's anyone
Speaker 1: who wouldn't benefit from self compassion. Certainly, some people have
Speaker 1: a more difficult time with it, people, for instance, who've
Speaker 1: got with the trauma background early childhood, history of neglect
Speaker 1: or abuse. It can be scary actually to be self
Speaker 1: compassionate because those feelings of warmth and care that we
Speaker 1: hopefully normally got from a carry and caregiver, if it
Speaker 1: gets mixed up with other feelings like fear neglect, then
Speaker 1: it can actually activating that whole self soothing system can
Speaker 1: actually be a little frightening. Public clovert calls it fear
Speaker 1: of compassion. So although it is harder for some people
Speaker 1: and some people have to go slower, I recommend that
Speaker 1: some people when they go down the self compassion path,
Speaker 1: they do it with the help of the therapist, because
Speaker 1: you know, really most of us have closed our hearts
Speaker 1: and response to suffering most of our lives, and we
Speaker 1: start opening our hearts. There's a term we use for
Speaker 1: it and our program called backdraft, Like you let in
Speaker 1: the fresh oxygen of compassion and the pain comes rushing out,
Speaker 1: and sometimes it's like a boom. This more mild, but
Speaker 1: this is normal because sometimes it does help to have
Speaker 1: a little support as you're going down the path is
Speaker 1: self compassion in case you get overwhelmed by the pain
Speaker 1: that you actually touch. But pretty much anyone so far
Speaker 1: that we've seen can learn self compassion. It just makes
Speaker 1: you just need to feel it yourself. Be a slow
Speaker 1: learner is all better people, for instance, to Tronta histories,
Speaker 1: who learn to be more self compassionate. It's one of
Speaker 1: the most effective ways of coping with one's pass and
Speaker 1: moving on from it by giving yourself what maybe you
Speaker 1: didn't get from your early childhood. So yeah, and the
Speaker 1: thing is, it's not rocket science. I think that's the
Speaker 1: thing that surprised me that I thought it might be
Speaker 1: harder for people who are really you habitual self critics
Speaker 1: to learn these new ways. The thing is, most people
Speaker 1: have a fair amount of experience being compassionate to those
Speaker 1: that care about friends, family members. They know what to say,
Speaker 1: they know the tone of the voice to you. They
Speaker 1: kind of had a lot of experience being a caring,
Speaker 1: compassionate friend to another. So all you have to really
Speaker 1: do is give yourself permission to relate to yourself that
Speaker 1: way and to remember. But if you just ask people, okay,
Speaker 1: the way you spoke to yourself right now, would you
Speaker 1: say that to someone you really cared about? No, I'll
Speaker 1: what would you say I cared about? And then you
Speaker 1: get them to do that, and then they kind of
Speaker 1: have this tool already. I'll ask you something I've been
Speaker 1: thinking about. Shouldn't sometimes you actually be? Shouldn't you be
Speaker 1: hard on yourself? Sometimes? Well? So, self compassion mean you
Speaker 1: don't see yourself clearly, And in fact, one of them
Speaker 1: most useful aspects of self compassion is it allows us
Speaker 1: to hold our shame. Sometimes we feel shamed for very
Speaker 1: good reason. We've done something really harmful, and self compassion
Speaker 1: gives the strength to own it. In fact, people who
Speaker 1: are more self compassion and take more responsibility than others
Speaker 1: for the harm that cause because they have the strength
Speaker 1: of so self compassion. It doesn't mean you condone bad behavior.
Speaker 1: In fact, just the opposite. What it's saying is it's
Speaker 1: allowing that I am imperfect, and yes, in an ideal world,
Speaker 1: I would have not made that mistake, absolutely, But you
Speaker 1: know it also acknowledges the truth that we aren't in
Speaker 1: total control. Right, we do the best we can, but
Speaker 1: we didn't choose our genes, how reactive our wiringness. What
Speaker 1: if you didn't do the best you can? What if,
Speaker 1: like you intentionally did something bad? Well, so, okay, this
Speaker 1: isn't we start getting the philosophy here, right? What is
Speaker 1: it that made you choose that action in the moment?
Speaker 1: Most likely that choice was tingent upon thousands of causes
Speaker 1: and conditions that you actually didn't choose. Right, So this
Speaker 1: is you know, this is kind of the philosophical position,
Speaker 1: And you know, I kind of take the more Buddhist
Speaker 1: view that we are in part of a larger, interdependent whole,
Speaker 1: and there's no separate self that is capable of radical
Speaker 1: choice independent of all other causes and conditions. So really
Speaker 1: the wisdom of self compassion is saying, hey, this is
Speaker 1: what I was capable of doing at the time. Does
Speaker 1: that mean I am a bad person? Usually? You know, again,
Speaker 1: we do think self compassion is possibly linked guilt, which
Speaker 1: is I did something bad. It's negatively linked to shame,
Speaker 1: which is, and there I am bad. And this is
Speaker 1: where the common humanity comes in understanding the complexity. Self
Speaker 1: compassion seems very clearly, I made a mistake, I did wrong.
Speaker 1: I'm really going to try to commit as much as
Speaker 1: I can not to doing it again. But it doesn't
Speaker 1: say and therefore I am hopeless, worthless, and you know,
Speaker 1: start calling yourself names, which actually that type of behavior
Speaker 1: is usually it keeps people from taking responsibility in the
Speaker 1: first place. They don't want to admit that, yeah I'm
Speaker 1: a horrible person. No I'm not just be your fault,
Speaker 1: you know, so, But yeah, some of it is kind
Speaker 1: of your philosophical approach. Do I think self compassion has
Speaker 1: to be earned. I think all human beings, by their
Speaker 1: very nature, we're all born into this world as innocent babies.
Speaker 1: You know, we don't have a lot of control. We
Speaker 1: certainly didn't choose our games. We don't have a lot
Speaker 1: of control about how we're we're raised. That influences that
Speaker 1: condition our habitual patterns. And therefore, I personally, I think
Speaker 1: all people are intrinsically worthy of compassion. But that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean we condone behavior. Paul Gilbert has a great phrase
Speaker 1: for this. He says, it's not your fault, that it
Speaker 1: is your responsibility. Well, a lot of existential philosophers talked
Speaker 1: about that as well. Yeah so, And I think that's
Speaker 1: the view of self compassion. And again, the empirical support
Speaker 1: seems to show if you help people, Like a study
Speaker 1: by Greens and chen Out at Berkely, they had people
Speaker 1: think about something they had done to hurt someone they
Speaker 1: felt really bad about, and half the people they helped
Speaker 1: them by thinking about the three components of self compassion
Speaker 1: in relation to what they did. I think they had
Speaker 1: a self esteem control group and a neutral writing control group.
Speaker 1: People who were helped to be self compassionate about what
Speaker 1: they did were more likely to take responsibility to own it. Wow,
Speaker 1: I really messed up more and more motivated to try
Speaker 1: to repair the harm. I like that, I really like that.
Speaker 1: It sounds like you're a very compassionate person yourself. Well,
Speaker 1: I know that's the way of life. I certainly walked
Speaker 1: my walk, Not that I'm always perfectly compassionate. That's the
Speaker 1: whole point. Yeahs a nice thing about practicing self compassion.
Speaker 1: You don't claim. I don't claim to be mindful all
Speaker 1: the time, or never to be reactive or never be
Speaker 1: out of line. But I'm pretty quick always to come
Speaker 1: to a place of self compassion. Because what choice do
Speaker 1: we have. I mean, if it's a choice between being
Speaker 1: self compassionate, mess are being perfect? Good luck with the perfection?
Speaker 1: Does that most of us try to be? Okay, I
Speaker 1: just will never make a mistake. I will be perfect,
Speaker 1: and it just tried really really hard to be perfect.
Speaker 1: You know, good luck, It's just not reality. Have you
Speaker 1: found a link to reduced levels of perfectionism? Yeah? So basically,
Speaker 1: you know, if you look at there's two part way
Speaker 1: measuring perfectionism. One is how high you strive your standards,
Speaker 1: the goals you set for yourself. The other is how
Speaker 1: you treat yourself and you don't meet your goals, and
Speaker 1: so some passion is unrelated to how your standards, how
Speaker 1: how you know the aims you adopt for yourself with
Speaker 1: the goals you set for yourself. But it's very negatively
Speaker 1: linked to how much you beat yourself up and you
Speaker 1: don't meet your stand So it's negatively linked to what
Speaker 1: they call maladaptive perfectionism. There's nothing wrong with aiming high,
Speaker 1: you know. It's just that if you aim high and
Speaker 1: you fail and you beat yourself up, you can become
Speaker 1: afraid of failure, you can stop trying. So all that
Speaker 1: doesn't happen is selfy And that links to your earlier
Speaker 1: point that consciousness is positively correlated with it is and motivation.
Speaker 1: A lot of people think that self compassion is going
Speaker 1: to undermine your motivation. The data shows just the opposite, right,
Speaker 1: So again, fear of failure, performance, anxiety, underminding your self confidence,
Speaker 1: all of these are associated with self criticism. That's going
Speaker 1: to undermine your motivation. But being a support like kind
Speaker 1: of think of that encouraging, kind, supportive coach. You may
Speaker 1: give you criticism, but it's going to be constructive criticism.
Speaker 1: As opposed to harsh, belittling criticism. That type of support
Speaker 1: is much more effective for motivating ourselves than our usual pattern,
Speaker 1: which is just to say I'm a hopeless loser, I'm
Speaker 1: ashamed of myself. You know how good a motivator is that.
Speaker 1: I don't think Trump ever says that to himself. He
Speaker 1: doesn't know. So yeah, I want to wrap up just
Speaker 1: for the listeners. Some like amazing findings. You know. You
Speaker 1: found that self compassion is linked to less anxiety depression.
Speaker 1: It's linked to a lack of self criticism, less rumination,
Speaker 1: more levels of stress as well as the stress hormone cortisol,
Speaker 1: higher levels of well being, a higher motivation to learn
Speaker 1: and grow, like a mass free mindset. Found self wish
Speaker 1: to found to help people after divorce, cope with divorce,
Speaker 1: cope with early child to traumas, cope with chronic physical pain.
Speaker 1: It's important for relationships. It's not selfish, it actually improves relationships.
Speaker 1: Very important point. Wow, yeah, great point. And there's also
Speaker 1: cultural differences in self compassion. Is that right? Or is
Speaker 1: our country? Are we like? Whoa? And yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I wish more people do research on this. I did
Speaker 1: a study with two of my grad students, like in
Speaker 1: two thousand and five, almost nothing has been done, which
Speaker 1: is kind of annoying because I don't have time to
Speaker 1: do everything. But I had a student from Thailand and
Speaker 1: a student from Taiwan, and the idea is, you know,
Speaker 1: it's not like a simple East West difference. In Thailand,
Speaker 1: people were most self compassionate. They actually it's more infused
Speaker 1: in the culture. Buddhism is a book part of the culture.
Speaker 1: Like for instance, most men they go on a weak
Speaker 1: silent meditation we can before they get married. We take
Speaker 1: it seriously. Taiwan is more confusion and they use self
Speaker 1: criticism as a way to motivate themselves. So we found
Speaker 1: that highest levels were in Thailand, lowest levels were in Taiwan,
Speaker 1: and got stas is in between. But interesting me, in
Speaker 1: all three cultures we've got the strang same strong positive
Speaker 1: association between self compassion and wellbeing. But even if you're
Speaker 1: on a culture that doesn't promote self compassion, you're still
Speaker 1: going to personally benefit by having more riders and less
Speaker 1: of it still helps. Well, that's just wonderful. That's a
Speaker 1: great place to end, I think, because Okay, anyone except
Speaker 1: maybe narcissts can benefit. Thank you so much for your
Speaker 1: generosity today. Thanks for listening to the Psychology Podcast. I
Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed this episode. If you'd like to react
Speaker 1: in some way to something you heard, I encourage you
Speaker 1: to join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com.
Speaker 1: That's the Psychology podcast dot com. Also, please add our
Speaker 1: rating and review of the podcast on iTunes. Thanks for
Speaker 1: being such a great supporter of the podcast, and tune
Speaker 1: in next season for more on the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity.