WEBVTT - Start flourishing, with Daniel Coyle 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:09.240 Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning. 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:13.720 This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.520 Today's episode is going to be a longer one part 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:20.400 of the series where I interview fascinating people about how 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:23.119 they take their days from great to awesome and any 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:25.759 advice they have for the rest of us. So today 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:28.600 I am delighted to welcome Daniel Coyle to Before Breakfast. 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:31.360 Daniel is the author of the brand new book Flourish. 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:33.480 He is also the author of the best selling books 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:35.080 The Culture Code and The Talent Code. 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:36.360 Daniel, Welcome to the show. 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:38.120 Thanks for having me, Laura. It's great to be here. 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:40.600 Yeah, very excited to have you and introduce you to 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:42.760 any of my listeners who haven't read your work. So 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:44.800 why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:48.199 You know, I was raised in Alaska, and that as 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:50.200 a writer is always a good spot to live because 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:52.680 you see things from a bit of a distance. Man, 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:55.680 it's like being raised in a foreign country. I've ended 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:57.200 up writing out what was going to be a doctor, 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:00.000 took a left turn into journalism at the last minute, 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.480 science journalism, and ended up spending a career writing about 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:07.440 how people kind of the mechanics beneath magic, like why 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:09.920 super talented people are that way, or why great cultures 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.760 are that way. And I've lately turned my attention into communities, 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:17.119 like why do certain communities like flourish? Why do certain 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:19.479 individuals within those communities flourish and grow? 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:23.040 Yeah, well, what is exactly flourishing? 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:26.000 I mean, because it's a broad topic and sort of 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:30.039 a big word, what would you how would you define flourishing? 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:34.280 It's joyful, meaningful, growth, shared and the thing, the deep 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:36.600 thing to understand about it is that like that's kind 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.440 of how we're built. We're pre wired, and we require 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:42.680 other people, We require being in community to bring out 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:45.840 the best in ourselves. We kind of have gotten a 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:48.760 little bit stuck in this culture as thinking about ourselves 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:50.760 just as separated individuals, like I need to work on 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:53.840 myself myself, myself, and that's true, that's totally true. But 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.600 to really get to that next level and to really 0:01:56.680 --> 0:01:59.040 unlock the parts of yourself that are the deepest, the 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:02.240 thing that matters is being connected with others. Another way 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:05.440 to put it is like all flourishing is kind of mutual, 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:07.800 and if we think about our lives and think about 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:09.960 our journeys and the people who have brought us here. 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:13.880 We're not doing it alone, right, There's there's specific conversations, 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:17.760 there's specific relationships, relationships maybe like people have with this podcast, 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:22.000 where it's like they're consistently consistently opening up new pathways 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:23.840 for you. And that's what I found in the places 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.080 that I visited, These flourishing places, Like there was this 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:30.320 little town in Vermont that's produced like eleven Olympians, right, 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.639 and they're continually nourishing each other and nurturing each other. 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:37.040 And so these places are like like these marvelous gardens, right. 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:39.600 Or a business. There was a business in Michigan. It 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.000 was a tiny deli. It's grown into this ninety million 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:45.959 dollar community of businesses. And in all those places, they're 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:50.200 finding ways to get a toun done and be incredibly productive, 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:54.720 but also kind of balancing that with relationships, with learning 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.080 from others, with connecting with others. And so community is 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:00.520 kind of the key to the whole thing. And the 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.120 challenge that I think I think about a lot is 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:05.359 how do I bring community into my life When I'm 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:07.960 not in community? How do I like stay connected with 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.560 others and make that happen in the mornings and the 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.600 evenings all the time to kind of create that level 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:16.519 of energy, because in the end, it's not smartness only 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:18.960 gets you so far. It's like, this is about this 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:22.720 is about energy, growth, joy and meaning and those come 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:25.640 from relationships. It's hard to get those on your own. 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:27.760 Well, what drew you to this topic? 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:30.720 You know? I ended up getting to a point in 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.000 my life. Both my parents passed away in kind of 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:36.120 quick succession, and that sort of wakes you up and 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:37.960 it makes you see that this whole thing is short. 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:40.080 And I had spent my life kind of studying people 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:43.000 who were super super talented and groups that were super 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.520 super high performing, and I saw that they were all 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:49.040 kind of climbing this mountain, and those mountaintops when they 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:53.480 got there are kind of lonely, windy, empty places, Like 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:56.360 there's so many successful people that are kind of sad, right, 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:58.880 like we've all met them, Like they have everything, but 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:01.800 they're not fulfilled. And so it got me interested in 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:04.200 to get off the mountaintop and get into the valleys 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:06.840 in the gardens, like what are these places that are 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:10.600 growing people? You know, what is this There's a neighborhood 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:13.600 in Paris that has transformed itself from like this really 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.800 disconnected modern place to something that feels like a little village, 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:19.680 like everybody knows each other and everybody's connected and growing. 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.160 And that's where I've spent the last five years hanging out. 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:25.120 And there's the old saying, like every writer writes the 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:27.400 book that they need, you know, And that was the 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:30.200 book that I needed at that time. And it ends 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.440 up being kind of all about that process of joyful, 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.760 meaningful growth shared and that was kind of a surprise. 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:37.400 I had kind of always bought into the idea that 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:39.880 you can do it alone, and this book has really 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:43.520 brought in the truth that the power of community is 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.359 really transformative. The power of community, and so how do 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.120 we get that community into our lives in a regular way. 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:51.559 Well, that is a good question in which we should 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:54.679 then start to address, because somebody hears isn't like, yes, 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:56.479 I would love to be part of a garden. I 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.440 want to be in this flourishing community. But we may 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:03.520 not have magically been dropped in this community in Paris 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:07.119 or this town in Vermont that you know is raising 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:09.400 up all these Olympians. And so if we find ourselves 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:13.160 in sort of a more normal situation and we you know, 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:15.840 have some community, but maybe not as much as we want. 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:18.200 What are some things we should start to do? 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:20.479 Yeah, a lot of it has is rooted in the 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:24.000 way we pay attention to things. And what I found 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:27.960 these places doing regularly very almost like it was like 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:31.760 a physical workout. Is they really embraced ritual. These places 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:33.919 really embrace ritual is a way to connect, but also 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.279 is a way to kind of ground yourself, your individual self. 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:40.320 Your modern life is like this incredibly fast race. You're 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:44.440 like chasing, you're hunting, you're playing this game. And they 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:48.880 had a way of using ritual to slow down and stop, 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.320 and for me, that was that that was the big takeaway, 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:55.680 Like ritual is super powerful to take just a moment 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:58.960 to slow down to do something that's not productive. Because 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:02.320 that's really the weird thing about rituals, Like we focus 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:04.640 a lot on habits in our life, like we want 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.680 to build good habits. Habits kind of automate your life, right, 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:11.760 they make things quicker and better. But rituals animate your life, 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:14.479 you know, Rituals give it connection and energy. And so 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.400 these places did the unusual thing. They were incredibly reductive 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:21.120 because they had the ability to stop, which is just, 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:23.800 you know, kind of beautiful encounterintuitive. We don't think that 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:25.760 in order to kind of get the most of our 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:27.680 lives that the key thing we need to do is 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:31.200 to kind of learn how to stop and let go. 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:33.839 And that's what they were really good at doing. I 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:36.400 met a guy he studied it, I think it was 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:39.320 the Harvard Divinity School, and he had developed a little 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.240 ritual that he did every morning that really grounded him. 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:44.720 And he would be when he'd be brushing his teeth, 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:47.080 he would just say to himself this quick mantra, which 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:51.520 was every day contains joy and suffering, and this day 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:54.960 is no different. And it kind of makes everything a 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:57.480 little It shifts your attention a little bit, it shifts 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:02.520 your perspective. And you know, I met that Deli that 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:05.240 I mentioned in Michigan. The guy had a great He 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:09.479 would just teach his people SBA he called it, which 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:13.200 was stop, breathe and appreciate, you know, just little moments 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:16.760 of mindfulness that lets you let you zoom out and 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:19.559 connect with what really matters. So those are like ways 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:24.200 of building sort of a sense of connection that allow 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:26.240 you to get out of your own narrow attention and 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.240 into kind of a broader attention. And the strange thing 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:31.760 about it that ended up kind of really making it 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.200 stick is when you look into why that is, the 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:37.760 mechanics of what that is, it turns out that we 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:41.560 don't have just one attention system. We have two. We 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:44.360 have task attention, which is what we're in most of 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:46.040 the time, super narrow. I need to get from A 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:47.400 to B, I need to get the kids picked up, 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:50.000 and I need to get that presentation done. But then 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:54.640 we also have something called relational attention. Relational attention is 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:58.440 really broad, and it's how we create meaning and connection. 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:02.520 And so when when they were saying that little it's 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:06.600 almost like, you know, task attention is this narrow spotlight 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:09.600 that's job is to see the world as this flat 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:11.600 puzzle we should solve, and it makes us kind of 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.120 anxious to be in task attention all the time because 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.360 the world is just this game that we're constantly catching 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:20.720 up with. But relational attention, which is where community happens. 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.520 Relational attention is like, Huh, what's that mysterious thing over there? 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.040 I want to check that out? Or who am I 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:30.080 connected to down deep? Or what is their joint suffering 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:31.840 in the world every day where am I seeing that? 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:34.640 And it grounds us and it gives us stability and 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:39.679 calm and peace. And so those moments of ritual are 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:43.480 really ways of like lighting the lamp of relational attention 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:47.280 and letting us let go of that narrow task attention 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:50.200 that makes us always feel like we're chasing after something 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:50.960 and never getting it. 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:53.240 All right, Well, we're going to talk a little bit 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.800 more about ritual when we get back from our first 0:08:55.880 --> 0:09:05.319 ad break. Well, I am here talking with Daniel Coyle, 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:07.439 who is the author of the brand new book Flourish. 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:09.120 He is also the author of The Culture Code and 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:11.080 the Talent Code. We've been talking about ritual. 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:12.079 Now, there's an. 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.960 Interesting thing here of like find group ritual, right, because 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.360 that's part of you know, our relational energy here. And 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.360 I mean you mentioned the Divinity professor who starts with 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:22.080 his own personal ritual. 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:23.679 I wonder if somebody's listening to this and like I 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:24.600 would like some sort of. 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:28.280 Group ritual in my life, what can they do to 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:30.200 start setting something like that up? 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.280 Yeah, it could be the smallest is the easiest, right, 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:38.080 And one thing that I've done for myself lately is 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:41.360 just try to make one little reach out a day 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:43.679 to somebody in my life, you know. And it may 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:45.599 be it may be tiny, maybe a text to a 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:47.720 guy who used to play football with in my neighborhood. 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:50.880 It might be something to an old neighbor, but one 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:53.840 simple reach out a day. My wife and I do 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.199 this silly thing too in the morning when we have coffee. 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.600 We take a second and we just clink are cups 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.160 together and we say clank or we say cheers. Right, 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.560 it's so dumb, right, But in that moment of like, 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:09.600 it's not productive, it doesn't create anything. It just creates 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:13.400 this moment of like the small connection. And so finding 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.080 those small connections and the rule when you find them 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:20.080 is they don't need to be productive. They actually should 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:22.720 not be productive. Like if you have a tradition with 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:25.560 your kids of always going to Chipotle after soccer practice 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:29.040 or whatever, or having this particular stupid movie that you 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.720 watch together every year at a certain time that everyone 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:38.760 dislikes having something silly, actually is where ritual can begin, 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:42.360 because it's it actually needs not to be productive. 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:44.959 We had go ahead, sorry, well, we were going to 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:48.880 talk about the difference between sort of habit and ritual. 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.280 Then because I mean one of the issues is when 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:54.960 we do things over and over again, they often do 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:59.960 become automatic and more mindless. So is there a way 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.200 to make something that you are choosing to do over 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:07.520 and over again stay in the mindful category. 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:12.480 Yeah, yeah, And I think the thing that it should contain, 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:14.840 the thing that I've seen it contain, is an element 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:18.520 of beauty to it. You know people who I know 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:20.680 a person who every time they sit down to write, 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:23.480 they light a candle. Now, lighting a candle doesn't help 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.760 you write better. There's no use, there's no utility there, 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:30.160 but there's a beauty to that. Right. Stopping is that 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.720 there's a morning walk that's very traditional and Buddhist thought, 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.760 where you go walk and you go see the sunrise. Right, 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.560 that's the habit. But the thing that distinguishes it is 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:45.880 that presence of beauty, that presence of something bigger than yourself. Right. 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:48.240 The difference to a ritual a habit is that a 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:52.280 habit helps you, helps you get through your life more 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:56.240 cleanly and efficiently. It gets things done. A ritual, on 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:58.880 the other hand, connects you to something bigger than your life. 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.760 It makes you just for a second. And so that's 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:03.320 the key if you have a ritual that makes you 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.199 disappear a little bit, whether that's you know, watching a 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:09.920 sunrise or reading a particular bit of passage of poetry 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.599 that wakes you up in that way, the key is 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.200 that it's not useful and that it contains something big 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:16.560 and beautiful. It can be anything. 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:20.199 So you have an image in the book which I 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:22.720 think you borrow from one of the people you interview 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:26.520 about red, yellow, and green doors. Can you talk about that. 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:28.760 Yes, it's an idea from a psychologist at Columbia called 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:32.600 Lisa Miller, and her idea is and it's very powerful. 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.280 It is rooted in our attention. In that attention, we 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.080 go through life kind of in narrow mode often and 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:40.480 we're looking where alert for green doors that are open 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.080 and red doors that are closed. Right. Green doors means 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:45.199 to do this right, there's an opening there, go that's 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:47.840 an opportunity. Red doors means there's not an opportunity there. 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.600 But what this idea points out is that the key 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:55.400 to fulfillment and flourishing is looking for the yellow doors, 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:59.559 the ones that aren't necessarily go and they're not necessarily stop, 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:01.920 but they appear out of the corner of your eye 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:08.120 and their opportunities to explore, opportunities to try something new, 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:10.679 opportunities to have a conversation with someone that you might 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:14.120 not normally have a conversation with, and switching your attention. 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:16.840 And it's very hard to do. It's really tricky to 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:19.480 sort of wake up and say, wait a minute, was 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:21.600 that a yellow door? Can I give that a try? 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:24.920 But it really is transformative because it knocks you out 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:28.600 of that narrow task attention into that broader relational attention. 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.280 And it's the way life actually is. You know, life 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.760 is not a machine. We sort of think of it 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:39.040 as a machine. But machines are about being predictable, reliable, 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:42.120 doing the same thing every time. And that's not life, right. 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:46.240 Life is actually alive. Life is this complex journey. And 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:48.440 when you look reflect on your own life, or talk 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:52.240 about anybody about their life, any remarkable life, what you 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.840 find is that it ain't a straight line. There's all 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.480 kinds of twist. It's a squiggly line. If you were 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:00.840 to take a piece of paper and chart out the 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:02.800 journey of your life what got you to this point 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.720 right now, you would not be drawing straight lines. You'd 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:09.520 be drawing oh and then I failed at this, but 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:11.880 it opened up this doorway over here. And then I 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:13.960 failed at that, and it opened up this doory over here, 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:15.840 and then I happened to meet this person and opened 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.560 up this door over here. We're all enmeshed in this 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:21.720 bigger ecosystem, and it's all curved, just like you know 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:25.880 a tangled vine or any ecosystem. It's curvy lines, and 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.520 yellow doors are the junctures in those curvy lines, like 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:31.840 yellow doors are the moments when new pathways open up 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:35.200 for us to explore. And so taking a moment every day, 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:37.440 and this could be a ritual in fact, say what 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.760 yellow doors did I notice today? Or what yellow doors 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:44.080 might be in my pathway today? Who knew? Can I 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:48.040 talk to? What skill could I test out? Can be 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.640 a really powerful practice, And I could say for myself 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.280 it's kind of changed. It's brought me into connection with 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.040 groups of new friends. I got an invite a couple 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.920 of years ago to go indoor climbing. Always hated heights. 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.880 I don't like climbing. It seems finicky and funny and difficult. 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.680 But I thought like, huh yeah, yellow door, Like I'll 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.640 give it a try. And now like three years later 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:13.400 they're some of my best friends in the world. So 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.960 it brought me in touch with new pathways and people 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:22.880 and connected me to a new community. And like again, 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:25.920 being smart can only get you so far. Like community 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:29.760 and connection and meaning is what is what life is 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:30.040 made of. 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.800 Yeah, we talk about being open to serendipity around here 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:36.040 because I mean, the truth is, if you already knew 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:38.360 about something, you would be doing it right as a 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.440 you know, talented, ambitious person. If you knew about it already, 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:42.760 you would be doing it. So you have to leave 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.720 yourself open to the things you don't know, which could 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:47.920 be challenging because you know, there are a lot of 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.560 bad ideas in the world and difficult in demanding people. 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.080 So you know, people put up boundaries for good reasons, 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.280 but you know you have to make sure that the 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.080 good stuff can still get in front of you even 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.080 if it doesn't have an explo invitation. 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:02.680 That's right, and even if it doesn't feel very good 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:04.560 at first. You know, there's there's a lot of stuff 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:08.000 about you know, it's it's annoying to fail and stuff. 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:11.080 It's annoying to try things at first, it's difficult and painful, 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.480 but when you begin to see that difficulty and pain 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.880 as part of a larger squiggly line journey of your life, 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.680 and you begin to reflect on how you got here, 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.040 and there definitely was difficulty and pain in that way, 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:27.600 Like you know, all that stuff is part of the journey, 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.360 and embracing that really helps open up new pathways. 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:32.280 All right, well, we're going to take one more quick 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:33.960 ad break and then we'll be back with more from 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:43.840 Daniel Coyle. Well, I am talking with Daniel Coyle, who 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:45.840 is the author of the brand new book Flourish, also 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:47.600 the author of the books The Culture Code. 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:48.160 The Talent Code. 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.800 So Daniel, let's talk about your own personal schedule. This 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:55.480 is obviously a show about time management and productivity. 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.240 So what do your days tend to look like? 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:03.120 You know, as writer and as the father for sort 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.879 of unpredictable and chaotic woulby words that come to mind 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:11.159 at times, And so every day can bring something totally different. 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:12.840 It might be a conversation with somebody like you, It 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:15.120 might be researching, it might be interviewing, it might be 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:22.000 running kids around. But so each day I find that 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:24.040 like I have to kind of ground myself into what 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:26.439 the real meaning of that day is and take a 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:29.240 minute beforehand to kind of figure things out. So I 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:30.800 sit down with my coffee and I take a three 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.399 y five card, really small, and then I end up 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.080 kind of making notes while I drink coffee about what 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:37.320 the day might contain. 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.000 And how are you choosing that? Are you basing it 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:43.000 off like a longer term priority list on your calendar? 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.239 I mean, what are the inputs for that three by 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:45.800 five card. 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:49.720 Each project has got its own set of rhythms and phases. 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:51.640 So if I'm in a research phase, then I'm thinking 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:53.760 about that. If I'm a writing phase, I'm thinking about that. 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:55.800 If I'm having a conversation with folks like you, I'm 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:59.760 thinking about that. So it's kind of variable, but each 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:03.080 day has got its own I find what's powerful is 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:05.639 to sort of find time to sort of zoom out 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:09.600 and try to see things fresh and staying off technology 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:11.760 seems to really help that. Just having that little card 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:14.440 to write on with there's not much space. It's really intentional, 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:16.159 like I don't have a big sheet of paper or 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.400 anything like that. It's like the little card makes me say, 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.040 if I could write today on a match book, like 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.960 what matters today? What really matters I've got a friend 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:26.760 who's got a better one where he's got a little sheet, 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:29.160 but it's divided up. He's got you know, the family, 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:31.879 what's the family thing, what's the work thing, what's the 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.919 individual improvement thing? So I could be way better at 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.000 it than I am. But that idea of like trying 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:39.720 to get it on a match book is sort of 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.200 liberating because it's easy to feel overwhelmed. 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.000 Yeah, well, do you have any sort of morning routine 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.080 of are you writing on the index card and you're 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:49.399 having your coffee? Are there any other elements of this 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:50.920 that tend to be the same day to day? 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:52.960 You know, I do this weird little ritual thing where 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:55.480 I put some saline in my eye and then I 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:56.920 kind of think for a second that I want to 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.200 see clearly. Seeing is really important to what I do, 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:01.520 And so it's just stupid, but it's like it's still 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:03.840 powerful for me to be like to ground myself and 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:06.320 like I need to see things accurately. Like if I 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:08.160 don't see things accurately, it's going to be a tough day. 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:11.320 And I've definitely in my life gone down a ton 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.040 of rabbit holes because I haven't seen things accurately. So 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:16.520 that's that's very meaningful to me. And the other thing 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:18.320 I've been trying lately is an idea that I write 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.440 about in the book, which is Morning Pages. 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.439 Have you come across that before Julia Cameron? 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:27.239 Yeah, I mean, I think that's absolutely brilliant, And it 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:28.840 was hard for me to do because I like my 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:31.000 writing to make sense and come together, and she, of 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:33.959 course is telling you just go just say whatever's on 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:37.199 your mind, write that down very quickly and spend fifteen 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:41.920 twenty minutes three pages, kind of sort of purging yourself 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.159 of everything that's floating around. And I found that to 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:48.080 be again really powerful because it shifts my attention in 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:49.960 the same way as that did for the you know, 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:51.800