1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning. 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 2: Today's episode is going to be a longer one part 4 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 2: of the series where I interview fascinating people about how 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 2: they take their days from great to awesome and any 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 2: advice they have for the rest of us. So today 7 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 2: I am delighted to welcome Daniel Coyle to Before Breakfast. 8 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: Daniel is the author of the brand new book Flourish. 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 2: He is also the author of the best selling books 10 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 2: The Culture Code and The Talent Code. 11 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: Daniel, Welcome to the show. 12 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me, Laura. It's great to be here. 13 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, very excited to have you and introduce you to 14 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 2: any of my listeners who haven't read your work. So 15 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 2: why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. 16 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 3: You know, I was raised in Alaska, and that as 17 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 3: a writer is always a good spot to live because 18 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 3: you see things from a bit of a distance. Man, 19 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 3: it's like being raised in a foreign country. I've ended 20 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 3: up writing out what was going to be a doctor, 21 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 3: took a left turn into journalism at the last minute, 22 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 3: science journalism, and ended up spending a career writing about 23 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 3: how people kind of the mechanics beneath magic, like why 24 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 3: super talented people are that way, or why great cultures 25 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 3: are that way. And I've lately turned my attention into communities, 26 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 3: like why do certain communities like flourish? Why do certain 27 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 3: individuals within those communities flourish and grow? 28 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, what is exactly flourishing? 29 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 2: I mean, because it's a broad topic and sort of 30 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 2: a big word, what would you how would you define flourishing? 31 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 3: It's joyful, meaningful, growth, shared and the thing, the deep 32 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 3: thing to understand about it is that like that's kind 33 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 3: of how we're built. We're pre wired, and we require 34 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 3: other people, We require being in community to bring out 35 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 3: the best in ourselves. We kind of have gotten a 36 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 3: little bit stuck in this culture as thinking about ourselves 37 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 3: just as separated individuals, like I need to work on 38 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 3: myself myself, myself, and that's true, that's totally true. But 39 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 3: to really get to that next level and to really 40 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 3: unlock the parts of yourself that are the deepest, the 41 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 3: thing that matters is being connected with others. Another way 42 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 3: to put it is like all flourishing is kind of mutual, 43 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 3: and if we think about our lives and think about 44 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 3: our journeys and the people who have brought us here. 45 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 3: We're not doing it alone, right, There's there's specific conversations, 46 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 3: there's specific relationships, relationships maybe like people have with this podcast, 47 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 3: where it's like they're consistently consistently opening up new pathways 48 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 3: for you. And that's what I found in the places 49 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 3: that I visited, These flourishing places, Like there was this 50 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 3: little town in Vermont that's produced like eleven Olympians, right, 51 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 3: and they're continually nourishing each other and nurturing each other. 52 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 3: And so these places are like like these marvelous gardens, right. 53 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 3: Or a business. There was a business in Michigan. It 54 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 3: was a tiny deli. It's grown into this ninety million 55 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,959 Speaker 3: dollar community of businesses. And in all those places, they're 56 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 3: finding ways to get a toun done and be incredibly productive, 57 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 3: but also kind of balancing that with relationships, with learning 58 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 3: from others, with connecting with others. And so community is 59 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 3: kind of the key to the whole thing. And the 60 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 3: challenge that I think I think about a lot is 61 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 3: how do I bring community into my life When I'm 62 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 3: not in community? How do I like stay connected with 63 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 3: others and make that happen in the mornings and the 64 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 3: evenings all the time to kind of create that level 65 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 3: of energy, because in the end, it's not smartness only 66 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 3: gets you so far. It's like, this is about this 67 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 3: is about energy, growth, joy and meaning and those come 68 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 3: from relationships. It's hard to get those on your own. 69 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: Well, what drew you to this topic? 70 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 3: You know? I ended up getting to a point in 71 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 3: my life. Both my parents passed away in kind of 72 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 3: quick succession, and that sort of wakes you up and 73 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 3: it makes you see that this whole thing is short. 74 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 3: And I had spent my life kind of studying people 75 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 3: who were super super talented and groups that were super 76 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 3: super high performing, and I saw that they were all 77 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 3: kind of climbing this mountain, and those mountaintops when they 78 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 3: got there are kind of lonely, windy, empty places, Like 79 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 3: there's so many successful people that are kind of sad, right, 80 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 3: like we've all met them, Like they have everything, but 81 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 3: they're not fulfilled. And so it got me interested in 82 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 3: to get off the mountaintop and get into the valleys 83 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 3: in the gardens, like what are these places that are 84 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 3: growing people? You know, what is this There's a neighborhood 85 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 3: in Paris that has transformed itself from like this really 86 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 3: disconnected modern place to something that feels like a little village, 87 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 3: like everybody knows each other and everybody's connected and growing. 88 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 3: And that's where I've spent the last five years hanging out. 89 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 3: And there's the old saying, like every writer writes the 90 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 3: book that they need, you know, And that was the 91 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 3: book that I needed at that time. And it ends 92 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 3: up being kind of all about that process of joyful, 93 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 3: meaningful growth shared and that was kind of a surprise. 94 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 3: I had kind of always bought into the idea that 95 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 3: you can do it alone, and this book has really 96 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 3: brought in the truth that the power of community is 97 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 3: really transformative. The power of community, and so how do 98 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 3: we get that community into our lives in a regular way. 99 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:51,559 Speaker 2: Well, that is a good question in which we should 100 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,679 Speaker 2: then start to address, because somebody hears isn't like, yes, 101 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 2: I would love to be part of a garden. I 102 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: want to be in this flourishing community. But we may 103 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 2: not have magically been dropped in this community in Paris 104 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,119 Speaker 2: or this town in Vermont that you know is raising 105 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 2: up all these Olympians. And so if we find ourselves 106 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 2: in sort of a more normal situation and we you know, 107 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 2: have some community, but maybe not as much as we want. 108 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: What are some things we should start to do? 109 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of it has is rooted in the 110 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 3: way we pay attention to things. And what I found 111 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 3: these places doing regularly very almost like it was like 112 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 3: a physical workout. Is they really embraced ritual. These places 113 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 3: really embrace ritual is a way to connect, but also 114 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 3: is a way to kind of ground yourself, your individual self. 115 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 3: Your modern life is like this incredibly fast race. You're 116 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 3: like chasing, you're hunting, you're playing this game. And they 117 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 3: had a way of using ritual to slow down and stop, 118 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 3: and for me, that was that that was the big takeaway, 119 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 3: Like ritual is super powerful to take just a moment 120 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 3: to slow down to do something that's not productive. Because 121 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 3: that's really the weird thing about rituals, Like we focus 122 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 3: a lot on habits in our life, like we want 123 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 3: to build good habits. Habits kind of automate your life, right, 124 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 3: they make things quicker and better. But rituals animate your life, 125 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 3: you know, Rituals give it connection and energy. And so 126 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 3: these places did the unusual thing. They were incredibly reductive 127 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 3: because they had the ability to stop, which is just, 128 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 3: you know, kind of beautiful encounterintuitive. We don't think that 129 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 3: in order to kind of get the most of our 130 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 3: lives that the key thing we need to do is 131 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 3: to kind of learn how to stop and let go. 132 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 3: And that's what they were really good at doing. I 133 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 3: met a guy he studied it, I think it was 134 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 3: the Harvard Divinity School, and he had developed a little 135 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 3: ritual that he did every morning that really grounded him. 136 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 3: And he would be when he'd be brushing his teeth, 137 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 3: he would just say to himself this quick mantra, which 138 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 3: was every day contains joy and suffering, and this day 139 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 3: is no different. And it kind of makes everything a 140 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 3: little It shifts your attention a little bit, it shifts 141 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 3: your perspective. And you know, I met that Deli that 142 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 3: I mentioned in Michigan. The guy had a great He 143 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 3: would just teach his people SBA he called it, which 144 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 3: was stop, breathe and appreciate, you know, just little moments 145 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 3: of mindfulness that lets you let you zoom out and 146 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,559 Speaker 3: connect with what really matters. So those are like ways 147 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 3: of building sort of a sense of connection that allow 148 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 3: you to get out of your own narrow attention and 149 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 3: into kind of a broader attention. And the strange thing 150 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 3: about it that ended up kind of really making it 151 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 3: stick is when you look into why that is, the 152 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 3: mechanics of what that is, it turns out that we 153 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 3: don't have just one attention system. We have two. We 154 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 3: have task attention, which is what we're in most of 155 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 3: the time, super narrow. I need to get from A 156 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 3: to B, I need to get the kids picked up, 157 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 3: and I need to get that presentation done. But then 158 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 3: we also have something called relational attention. Relational attention is 159 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 3: really broad, and it's how we create meaning and connection. 160 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 3: And so when when they were saying that little it's 161 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 3: almost like, you know, task attention is this narrow spotlight 162 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 3: that's job is to see the world as this flat 163 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 3: puzzle we should solve, and it makes us kind of 164 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 3: anxious to be in task attention all the time because 165 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 3: the world is just this game that we're constantly catching 166 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 3: up with. But relational attention, which is where community happens. 167 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 3: Relational attention is like, Huh, what's that mysterious thing over there? 168 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 3: I want to check that out? Or who am I 169 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 3: connected to down deep? Or what is their joint suffering 170 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 3: in the world every day where am I seeing that? 171 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 3: And it grounds us and it gives us stability and 172 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 3: calm and peace. And so those moments of ritual are 173 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 3: really ways of like lighting the lamp of relational attention 174 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 3: and letting us let go of that narrow task attention 175 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 3: that makes us always feel like we're chasing after something 176 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 3: and never getting it. 177 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 2: All right, Well, we're going to talk a little bit 178 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 2: more about ritual when we get back from our first 179 00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 2: ad break. Well, I am here talking with Daniel Coyle, 180 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 2: who is the author of the brand new book Flourish. 181 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: He is also the author of The Culture Code and 182 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 2: the Talent Code. We've been talking about ritual. 183 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: Now, there's an. 184 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 2: Interesting thing here of like find group ritual, right, because 185 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 2: that's part of you know, our relational energy here. And 186 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 2: I mean you mentioned the Divinity professor who starts with 187 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 2: his own personal ritual. 188 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: I wonder if somebody's listening to this and like I 189 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: would like some sort of. 190 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 2: Group ritual in my life, what can they do to 191 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 2: start setting something like that up? 192 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, it could be the smallest is the easiest, right, 193 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 3: And one thing that I've done for myself lately is 194 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 3: just try to make one little reach out a day 195 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 3: to somebody in my life, you know. And it may 196 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,599 Speaker 3: be it may be tiny, maybe a text to a 197 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 3: guy who used to play football with in my neighborhood. 198 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 3: It might be something to an old neighbor, but one 199 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 3: simple reach out a day. My wife and I do 200 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,199 Speaker 3: this silly thing too in the morning when we have coffee. 201 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 3: We take a second and we just clink are cups 202 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 3: together and we say clank or we say cheers. Right, 203 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 3: it's so dumb, right, But in that moment of like, 204 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 3: it's not productive, it doesn't create anything. It just creates 205 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 3: this moment of like the small connection. And so finding 206 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 3: those small connections and the rule when you find them 207 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 3: is they don't need to be productive. They actually should 208 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 3: not be productive. Like if you have a tradition with 209 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 3: your kids of always going to Chipotle after soccer practice 210 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 3: or whatever, or having this particular stupid movie that you 211 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 3: watch together every year at a certain time that everyone 212 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 3: dislikes having something silly, actually is where ritual can begin, 213 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 3: because it's it actually needs not to be productive. 214 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 2: We had go ahead, sorry, well, we were going to 215 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 2: talk about the difference between sort of habit and ritual. 216 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 2: Then because I mean one of the issues is when 217 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 2: we do things over and over again, they often do 218 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: become automatic and more mindless. So is there a way 219 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 2: to make something that you are choosing to do over 220 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 2: and over again stay in the mindful category. 221 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I think the thing that it should contain, 222 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 3: the thing that I've seen it contain, is an element 223 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 3: of beauty to it. You know people who I know 224 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 3: a person who every time they sit down to write, 225 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 3: they light a candle. Now, lighting a candle doesn't help 226 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 3: you write better. There's no use, there's no utility there, 227 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 3: but there's a beauty to that. Right. Stopping is that 228 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 3: there's a morning walk that's very traditional and Buddhist thought, 229 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 3: where you go walk and you go see the sunrise. Right, 230 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 3: that's the habit. But the thing that distinguishes it is 231 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 3: that presence of beauty, that presence of something bigger than yourself. Right. 232 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 3: The difference to a ritual a habit is that a 233 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 3: habit helps you, helps you get through your life more 234 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 3: cleanly and efficiently. It gets things done. A ritual, on 235 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 3: the other hand, connects you to something bigger than your life. 236 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 3: It makes you just for a second. And so that's 237 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 3: the key if you have a ritual that makes you 238 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 3: disappear a little bit, whether that's you know, watching a 239 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 3: sunrise or reading a particular bit of passage of poetry 240 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,599 Speaker 3: that wakes you up in that way, the key is 241 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 3: that it's not useful and that it contains something big 242 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 3: and beautiful. It can be anything. 243 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,199 Speaker 2: So you have an image in the book which I 244 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 2: think you borrow from one of the people you interview 245 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: about red, yellow, and green doors. Can you talk about that. 246 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 3: Yes, it's an idea from a psychologist at Columbia called 247 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 3: Lisa Miller, and her idea is and it's very powerful. 248 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 3: It is rooted in our attention. In that attention, we 249 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 3: go through life kind of in narrow mode often and 250 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 3: we're looking where alert for green doors that are open 251 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 3: and red doors that are closed. Right. Green doors means 252 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 3: to do this right, there's an opening there, go that's 253 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 3: an opportunity. Red doors means there's not an opportunity there. 254 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 3: But what this idea points out is that the key 255 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 3: to fulfillment and flourishing is looking for the yellow doors, 256 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 3: the ones that aren't necessarily go and they're not necessarily stop, 257 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 3: but they appear out of the corner of your eye 258 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 3: and their opportunities to explore, opportunities to try something new, 259 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 3: opportunities to have a conversation with someone that you might 260 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 3: not normally have a conversation with, and switching your attention. 261 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 3: And it's very hard to do. It's really tricky to 262 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 3: sort of wake up and say, wait a minute, was 263 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 3: that a yellow door? Can I give that a try? 264 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 3: But it really is transformative because it knocks you out 265 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 3: of that narrow task attention into that broader relational attention. 266 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 3: And it's the way life actually is. You know, life 267 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 3: is not a machine. We sort of think of it 268 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 3: as a machine. But machines are about being predictable, reliable, 269 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 3: doing the same thing every time. And that's not life, right. 270 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 3: Life is actually alive. Life is this complex journey. And 271 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 3: when you look reflect on your own life, or talk 272 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 3: about anybody about their life, any remarkable life, what you 273 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 3: find is that it ain't a straight line. There's all 274 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 3: kinds of twist. It's a squiggly line. If you were 275 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 3: to take a piece of paper and chart out the 276 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 3: journey of your life what got you to this point 277 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 3: right now, you would not be drawing straight lines. You'd 278 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 3: be drawing oh and then I failed at this, but 279 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 3: it opened up this doorway over here. And then I 280 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 3: failed at that, and it opened up this doory over here, 281 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 3: and then I happened to meet this person and opened 282 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 3: up this door over here. We're all enmeshed in this 283 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 3: bigger ecosystem, and it's all curved, just like you know 284 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 3: a tangled vine or any ecosystem. It's curvy lines, and 285 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 3: yellow doors are the junctures in those curvy lines, like 286 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 3: yellow doors are the moments when new pathways open up 287 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 3: for us to explore. And so taking a moment every day, 288 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 3: and this could be a ritual in fact, say what 289 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 3: yellow doors did I notice today? Or what yellow doors 290 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 3: might be in my pathway today? Who knew? Can I 291 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 3: talk to? What skill could I test out? Can be 292 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 3: a really powerful practice, And I could say for myself 293 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 3: it's kind of changed. It's brought me into connection with 294 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 3: groups of new friends. I got an invite a couple 295 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 3: of years ago to go indoor climbing. Always hated heights. 296 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 3: I don't like climbing. It seems finicky and funny and difficult. 297 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 3: But I thought like, huh yeah, yellow door, Like I'll 298 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 3: give it a try. And now like three years later 299 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 3: they're some of my best friends in the world. So 300 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 3: it brought me in touch with new pathways and people 301 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 3: and connected me to a new community. And like again, 302 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 3: being smart can only get you so far. Like community 303 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 3: and connection and meaning is what is what life is 304 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 3: made of. 305 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, we talk about being open to serendipity around here 306 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 2: because I mean, the truth is, if you already knew 307 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: about something, you would be doing it right as a 308 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 2: you know, talented, ambitious person. If you knew about it already, 309 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 2: you would be doing it. So you have to leave 310 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: yourself open to the things you don't know, which could 311 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: be challenging because you know, there are a lot of 312 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 2: bad ideas in the world and difficult in demanding people. 313 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 2: So you know, people put up boundaries for good reasons, 314 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 2: but you know you have to make sure that the 315 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: good stuff can still get in front of you even 316 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: if it doesn't have an explo invitation. 317 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 3: That's right, and even if it doesn't feel very good 318 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 3: at first. You know, there's there's a lot of stuff 319 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 3: about you know, it's it's annoying to fail and stuff. 320 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 3: It's annoying to try things at first, it's difficult and painful, 321 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 3: but when you begin to see that difficulty and pain 322 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 3: as part of a larger squiggly line journey of your life, 323 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 3: and you begin to reflect on how you got here, 324 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 3: and there definitely was difficulty and pain in that way, 325 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 3: Like you know, all that stuff is part of the journey, 326 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 3: and embracing that really helps open up new pathways. 327 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 2: All right, well, we're going to take one more quick 328 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 2: ad break and then we'll be back with more from 329 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 2: Daniel Coyle. Well, I am talking with Daniel Coyle, who 330 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 2: is the author of the brand new book Flourish, also 331 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 2: the author of the books The Culture Code. 332 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: The Talent Code. 333 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: So Daniel, let's talk about your own personal schedule. This 334 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 2: is obviously a show about time management and productivity. 335 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: So what do your days tend to look like? 336 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 3: You know, as writer and as the father for sort 337 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 3: of unpredictable and chaotic woulby words that come to mind 338 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:11,159 Speaker 3: at times, And so every day can bring something totally different. 339 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 3: It might be a conversation with somebody like you, It 340 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 3: might be researching, it might be interviewing, it might be 341 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 3: running kids around. But so each day I find that 342 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 3: like I have to kind of ground myself into what 343 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 3: the real meaning of that day is and take a 344 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 3: minute beforehand to kind of figure things out. So I 345 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 3: sit down with my coffee and I take a three 346 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 3: y five card, really small, and then I end up 347 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 3: kind of making notes while I drink coffee about what 348 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 3: the day might contain. 349 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 2: And how are you choosing that? Are you basing it 350 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 2: off like a longer term priority list on your calendar? 351 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,239 Speaker 2: I mean, what are the inputs for that three by 352 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 2: five card. 353 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 3: Each project has got its own set of rhythms and phases. 354 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 3: So if I'm in a research phase, then I'm thinking 355 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 3: about that. If I'm a writing phase, I'm thinking about that. 356 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 3: If I'm having a conversation with folks like you, I'm 357 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 3: thinking about that. So it's kind of variable, but each 358 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 3: day has got its own I find what's powerful is 359 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 3: to sort of find time to sort of zoom out 360 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 3: and try to see things fresh and staying off technology 361 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 3: seems to really help that. Just having that little card 362 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 3: to write on with there's not much space. It's really intentional, 363 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 3: like I don't have a big sheet of paper or 364 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 3: anything like that. It's like the little card makes me say, 365 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 3: if I could write today on a match book, like 366 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 3: what matters today? What really matters I've got a friend 367 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 3: who's got a better one where he's got a little sheet, 368 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 3: but it's divided up. He's got you know, the family, 369 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 3: what's the family thing, what's the work thing, what's the 370 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 3: individual improvement thing? So I could be way better at 371 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 3: it than I am. But that idea of like trying 372 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 3: to get it on a match book is sort of 373 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 3: liberating because it's easy to feel overwhelmed. 374 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, do you have any sort of morning routine 375 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: of are you writing on the index card and you're 376 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 2: having your coffee? Are there any other elements of this 377 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 2: that tend to be the same day to day? 378 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 3: You know, I do this weird little ritual thing where 379 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 3: I put some saline in my eye and then I 380 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 3: kind of think for a second that I want to 381 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 3: see clearly. Seeing is really important to what I do, 382 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 3: And so it's just stupid, but it's like it's still 383 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 3: powerful for me to be like to ground myself and 384 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 3: like I need to see things accurately. Like if I 385 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 3: don't see things accurately, it's going to be a tough day. 386 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 3: And I've definitely in my life gone down a ton 387 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 3: of rabbit holes because I haven't seen things accurately. So 388 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 3: that's that's very meaningful to me. And the other thing 389 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 3: I've been trying lately is an idea that I write 390 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 3: about in the book, which is Morning Pages. 391 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 1: Have you come across that before Julia Cameron? 392 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think that's absolutely brilliant, And it 393 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 3: was hard for me to do because I like my 394 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 3: writing to make sense and come together, and she, of 395 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,959 Speaker 3: course is telling you just go just say whatever's on 396 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,199 Speaker 3: your mind, write that down very quickly and spend fifteen 397 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 3: twenty minutes three pages, kind of sort of purging yourself 398 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 3: of everything that's floating around. And I found that to 399 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 3: be again really powerful because it shifts my attention in 400 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 3: the same way as that did for the you know, 401 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 3: as these sort of practices do. I end up writing 402 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 3: about Julia Cameron in the Flourish book because it's such 403 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 3: a powerful way of shifting our attention, and our attention 404 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 3: is at the very very core of how we spend 405 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 3: our days and our lives, and so learn it's helped 406 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 3: me learn to sense am I in the narrow mode 407 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 3: right now? Or am I not in the narrow mode? 408 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 3: And so it's almost like learning about fitness, like before 409 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 3: you understood that you jogging made you feel better, or 410 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 3: lifting weights made you feel better. We didn't have a 411 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 3: clue about that. We just sort of felt like it 412 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 3: was healthy to be whatever size you were, and however 413 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 3: big you were, and you said that was fixed. We're 414 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 3: learning about our attentional health in exactly the same way, 415 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 3: like right now. There's super interesting research and I write 416 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 3: about some of the book, but this idea that we've 417 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 3: got these two modes and we can choose and we 418 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 3: can tell when we're in each one, and learning how 419 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 3: to do that, learning to say, whoops, I'm focused, I'm spotlight, 420 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 3: I'm narrow, I'm task attention right now, and then saying 421 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 3: I need to do something to let go, to help 422 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 3: me let go and really see, really create some meaning here, 423 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 3: really try to understand what's happening that I find that 424 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 3: to be like transformatively powerful. To sort of say, your 425 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 3: attention is not one thing, it's two things. Dial into 426 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 3: which one you're. 427 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: In right now, and we need both. 428 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 2: I mean, there are moments where you got to I 429 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 2: mean you've got to execute something that has to get done, 430 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 2: and that's the focus is very good. Maybe coming up 431 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 2: with the ideas or thinking something differently might be for 432 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 2: the other form of attention. 433 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 3: Exactly, and to build on that. It's best when you 434 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 3: have the one serving the other, Like I'm going to 435 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 3: pay attention to the big picture, but then I'm going 436 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 3: to do the narrow thing that helps serve that. And 437 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 3: that's the pattern that I see in a lot of 438 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 3: flourishing lives. It's like they're using their narrow attention to 439 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 3: create relationships. They're using their narrow attention to nurture community. 440 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 3: They're using their narrow like it's beautiful rather than the 441 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 3: opposite where they're they're just trying just simply focused on 442 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 3: the narrow thing, but using that to like serve your neighbor, 443 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 3: using that to serve the relationships in your life that matter, 444 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 3: doing concrete things to nurture the garden of your life. 445 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 2: So I always ask my guests, what is something you 446 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 2: have done recently to take a from great to awesome? 447 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 3: Wow? What is something to take a day from great 448 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 3: to awesome? We did it for Christmas. My kids know 449 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 3: that I love games, and so they kind of invented 450 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 3: these games a while back that we've continued to play. 451 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 3: And they're absolutely goofy like. But when we're together, we'll 452 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 3: we'll we'll sometimes have these these quick Olympiads, right, just 453 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 3: a quick Olympics and it's like running around the kitchen 454 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 3: island as fast as you can, or you know, skateboarding 455 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 3: somewhere or whatever. But they're they're all goofy. But there's 456 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 3: an awards ceremony, there are prizes, and when that happens 457 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 3: on a day like that is just just totally playing 458 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 3: with a group of people that you've known and now 459 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,479 Speaker 3: they're kind of becoming adults. And it's even getting more 460 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 3: similly than it used to. That took a day from 461 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 3: from great to awesome. So just like the Family Olympics 462 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 3: was an absolute blast. 463 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: All right, Family Olympics. I love it. What's something you're 464 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: looking forward to right now? 465 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 3: You know? I am looking forward to I do some 466 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 3: work with the Cleveland Guardians baseball team. I've consulted with 467 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 3: him for about the last ten years, and so, like 468 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 3: you know, baseball's kind of designed in this rhythm, it's 469 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 3: kind of designed to break your heart, you know. And 470 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 3: now spring training is just around the corner, and like 471 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 3: that idea that this here comes this new season. As 472 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 3: a writer, you're alone all the time, and this work 473 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 3: has kind of like saved me in terms of providing 474 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 3: this community really of people that we're trying to win games, 475 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 3: and it's totally delightful and fun. So I find myself 476 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 3: thinking about that a lot. 477 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, baseball is a lot of time. 478 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 3: Exactly each game. 479 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 2: Less time than it used to be. I mean the 480 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 2: upside of the pitch clock true, still epic. 481 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 3: It's epically long, which makes you kind of like, it's 482 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 3: so useles. Let's talk about rituals. I mean, they've figured 483 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 3: it all out right. It's all about like, how do 484 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 3: we hang out together for like four hours or if 485 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 3: you're a player, much longer and enjoy each. 486 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: Other and so for one hundred and fifty one hundred 487 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: and sixty times a year. 488 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 3: Yeah right, it's wild. 489 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: Yeah it is, it is. But baseball is amazing. So, Daniel, 490 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 1: where can people find you? 491 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 3: Danielcoil dot com is a good place to start. The 492 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 3: new book comes out February third, and that should be 493 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 3: available all over the place, So that's that's a good 494 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 3: place to go. 495 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 2: Sounds good, well, Daniel, Thank you so much for joining us. 496 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 2: Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback 497 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 2: about this or any other episode, you can always reach 498 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 2: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime, 499 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 2: this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making 500 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 2: the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. 501 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 2: If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach 502 00:24:52,280 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 2: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 503 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts 504 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 505 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.