1 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. The new amicron variant 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: of COVID, which was identified by scientists and researchers in 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: South Africa, has been widely reported and speculati about. But 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: what do we really know about it? Which has now 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: been detected in thirty states and the District of Columbia. Also, 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: what do we need to know about the pandemic now? 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: What about home testing kids, preventing therapies, vaccines and boosters 8 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: for all age groups? How do we stay safe and 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: still enjoy the holidays? Together here to help answer some 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: of our questions about what we need to know. I'm 11 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: really pleased to welcome back my guest, doctor Marty McCarry. 12 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: Doctor McCarry is a surgical oncologist and chief of the 13 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins Islet Transplant Center. He is a clinical lead 14 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: for the Johns Hopkins Sibili Innovation Hub and serves as 15 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: executive director of Improving Wisely, a Robert Wood Johnson Foundation 16 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: project to lower healthcare costs in the United States. He 17 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: is the recipient of the twenty twenty Business Book of 18 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: the Year Award for The Price We Pay? What Broke 19 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: American Healthcare and How to Fix It? I want to 20 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me and it's a pleasure to 21 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: have you on again. We last spoke in July of 22 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: twenty twenty and we talked about the cost of healthcare 23 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: and your book the price we pay. But I want 24 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: to have you joined me again to discuss the pandemic 25 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: and what we need to know now going into the holidays. 26 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: So let's start with the amicron variant. Where did it 27 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: come from and how is it different from other variants. Well, 28 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: it's great to be with you, Nute, thanks for having me. 29 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: The amicron variant I believe came from an animal reservoir. 30 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: And the reason that's important is that people forget that 31 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: millions of animals have had COVID and when it circulates 32 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: in the animal population where we're never going to see 33 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: it eradicated, it mutates. And the only way you can 34 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: really get thirty two mutations on the spike protein, which 35 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: is more than the typical several mutations we see with 36 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: delta and the other variants, in my opinion, is that 37 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: it's circulated in the animal kingdom. Now, there's a study 38 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: that showed a third of deer in Idaho had COVID 39 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: millions of rodents, so somewhere in South Africa, probably in 40 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: the Animal Kingdom, this mutated and it came about in 41 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: a different form, and that's where it came from. Now 42 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: the reason that's important, in my opinion, is because they're 43 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: going to keep spitting out more mutations forever, in perpetuity, 44 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 1: and we just need to recognize that we're going to 45 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: see variations of COVID for which we think our current 46 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: immune protection is probably pretty good. That is, partial immunity 47 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 1: is enough to reduce that risk from severe to a 48 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: mild common cold type infection. But we don't see White 49 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: House press conferences when the new seasonal flu strain arrives 50 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: in the United States. We don't have the White House 51 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: doing a briefing saying we now have a reported case 52 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: in San Francisco. But that's what we need to learn 53 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: to live with, is mild variations of this COVID nineteen virus. 54 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: The bat population in South Asia apparently has all sorts 55 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: of coronaviruses as long as it study the other day, 56 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: twenty percent of all the mammal species or bats. They're 57 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:36,839 Speaker 1: much more common actually than people realize because you don't 58 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: see them. They're nocturnal, but they're very, very successful, and 59 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: they were talking about some bats that have dozens or 60 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: scores of different coronaviruses in the bat. The bats used 61 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: to them the cohabit if you will. And it's sort 62 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: of as just a reminder that as the human race 63 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,119 Speaker 1: gets better and better at traveling around, and as they're 64 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: more and more of us, we're going to have some 65 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: kind of outbreak on a fairly regular basis of something. 66 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: And what made this different, of course, is that in 67 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: the first phase that people were dying, but as you're saying, 68 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: we're now looking at a variant which I think, with 69 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: the possible exception of one person in Great Britain, I 70 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: don't know that anybody has died from it, but I 71 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: guess the kind of news coverage that is out of 72 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: all proportion. As you point out, the number of people 73 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 1: who die annually from the flu is significant, but we 74 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: deal with it as a fact of life to be 75 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: coped with, not as something to be eradicated. That's right. 76 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: There are a million viruses on planet Earth and roughly 77 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: half a one percent to one percent of them have 78 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: crossed over into human beings. Now they are ubiquitous. They're 79 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: all over the place. You look at the common cold. 80 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: It's not actually one virus. It's a host of dozens 81 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: of viruses. So when people say are you worried about 82 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: the virus? I ask them which one one? Influenza econovirus, 83 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: rhinovirus RSV, which had more kids in the hospital than 84 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen this year, more kids were in the hospital 85 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: with respiratory since cecil virus a common circulating viral pathogen 86 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: than COVID nineteen, what's happening with COVID nineteen, And it's 87 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: a real risk For those who are older with no immunity, 88 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: that is, no vaccinated immunity, no natural immunity, they are 89 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: at serious risk of this virus, with a case fatality 90 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: rate of somewhere between one and two hundred and one 91 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: and six hundred. So for that population it's a real risk. 92 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: For the rest of the two hundred plus million Americans, 93 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: it represents a mild common cold like illness risk. So 94 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: what's happening is COVID nineteen. As it's downgraded with immunity 95 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: to a mild virus, we are still seeing the same 96 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: stigma that we saw last year. And you and I 97 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: saw this stigma back in the days of HIV. Oh 98 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,919 Speaker 1: my god, there's a case in this school. Right The 99 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: doctors say it poses no risk to the other kids, 100 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: but maybe there's some theoretical way in which the child. 101 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: What if the kid cuts themselves and an ounce of 102 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: blood splats out and lands on the eye of another kid, 103 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: even though there's never been an ocular transmission, it could 104 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: be my kid. And that sort of irrational stigmatization of 105 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: a virus over other threats, other safety hazards, other health concerns, 106 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: it's what we're seeing today, Right, So the unvaccinated pose 107 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: no threat to the vaccinated, and those who are vaccinated 108 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: are coming up with these constructs, right, Well, you could 109 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: give it to this person, who could give it to 110 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: my friend, who could give it to their cat, who 111 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: could give it to their child at home, and therefore 112 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: that child could give it to somebody vulnerable. That's the 113 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 1: sort of irrationality we're living with today. It seems to 114 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: me that in many ways COVID nineteen has become a 115 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: cultural psychological problem more than a health problem. You know, 116 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: you keep kids isolated long enough, you're affecting them even 117 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: if they don't get the disease. A lot of the reaction, 118 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: I mean part of it was a tool to beat 119 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: up Trump, but part of it was the news media 120 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: is desperate. If it bleeds, it leads, used to be said. 121 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: Nowadays they had a big vested investment. It's like the 122 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: weatherman who always love if there's a hurricane coming because 123 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: large tropical storm details at six sort of thing. And 124 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: so the number of non hurricanes that are almost hurricanes 125 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: if you're in a place like Houston or New Orleans 126 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: or Miami is just sort of amazing to watch. And 127 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: gradually people learn how to filter it out and go, Okay, 128 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: call me if it actually turns into something. But I 129 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: was surprised because I used to represent the Center for 130 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: Disease Control and I used to help them get money 131 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: for new buildings at billion dollars units. I thought they 132 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: really failed to handle this entire experience, and the whole 133 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: public health system failed to handle the totality of this 134 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: experience starting in January last year, and their confusion fed 135 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: into the media's hysteria, which fed into the politician's hysteria, 136 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: which then became almost a tribal behavior. So there are 137 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: the maskers and the non maskers are the Everyone has 138 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: to get vaccinated and get vaccinated if you want to 139 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: or don't get vaccinated on me. So, but these tribal 140 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: behaviors that actually weren't disease related, but they were diseased initiated. 141 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: I don't know if that makes any sense from your 142 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: perspective as an expert. As we move into the COVID 143 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: nineteen endemic phase, that is, it's going to be ubiquitous, 144 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: it's everywhere, and if you test for it in the 145 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: noses of a hundred Americans, you're going to find it 146 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: in people with no disease in maybe three or five 147 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: of them. Doesn't mean they need to be quarantined because 148 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: they post no risk to the general population, or the 149 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: risk is so small it's negligible, doesn't justified quarantining. So 150 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: if you test right now one hundred Americans for Meninjacoccus, 151 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: which is a bacteria that causes meningitis, it will show 152 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: up positive in ten percent of Americans. Tuberculosis, you'll find 153 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: that in three percent of Americans. That doesn't mean it 154 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: poses a public health threat. And we're moving to that 155 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: phase with COVID now where you can take a young, 156 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: healthy basketball team and you'll find COVID. The PCR justus 157 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: is so good. You can pick up one dead virus particle, 158 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: it'll pose a threat to other low risk, young, healthy 159 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: kids who were also immunized. You know, Germany just came 160 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: out with a study showing the risk of dying of 161 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: COVID in kids five through seventeen without vaccination. Not the risk, 162 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: but the total death count in the entire country. You're 163 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: talking like, you know, eighty million people with zero no 164 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: healthy child died of COVID in the age group five 165 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: to seventeen. Now, that was over a fifteen month period, 166 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: and there were deaths, but they were clustered in people 167 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: with medical conditions. That tells us those are the people 168 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: who really need immunity. And for the other healthy folks, 169 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: they're in good shape, but we've immunized them. They have 170 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: natural immunity, and we're still acting in this irrational way. 171 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: The CDC has been a disappointment. You know. I like 172 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: a lot of the folks there. I've got friends there 173 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: and at the FDA and NIH. They're good people. But 174 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: I'll tell you I have had serious issues with almost 175 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: every aspect of the COVID strategy, from failure to warn 176 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: of it, the initial mass guidance, the lack of a 177 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: reopening exit strategy in the spring of last year, schools, 178 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 1: vaccine allocation, summer camps, and now we're seeing it with 179 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: the sort of hysteria around Amicron. They've never really provided 180 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: good data the data we need. Take for example, Amicron 181 00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: hits this country end in November. Where's the CDC doing 182 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: the experiments providing the real time data? The country's asked? 183 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: The world economy is on hold, markets are in whiplash. 184 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: People want to know has anyone died, has anyone got 185 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: in severe illness? Has anyone hospitalized? The data lives in little, 186 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: tiny pockets around the world. Then we have over fifty 187 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: cases in the US. Tell us about those cases in 188 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: real time on a dashboard. Have any of them been hospitalized? 189 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: So we haven't gotten good real time data. And instead 190 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: what we did is we let pharma do the experiments 191 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: testing antibodies to Amicron. So the basic experiment we should 192 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: have done on day one is you take this new 193 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: virus and you test it in the lab against antibodies 194 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: that people have to COVID, and what you see is 195 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: whether or not the antibodies bind that experiment. I've talked 196 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: to immunologists. They can do that in one day. So 197 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: we have two BSL four virology labs in the US 198 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: highest level. You don't even need a four. You can 199 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: do it in a three. In fact, they probably did 200 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 1: it in a three. That is, Pharma did it in 201 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: a three. The CDC and NIH sat on those labs. 202 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 1: Those labs collected dust. We spent a lot of money 203 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: on those labs for so called bio terrorism prevention. Those 204 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: labs sat dormant as we deferred to pharma. Fiser, you 205 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: tell us whether or not this vaccine works against omicron, 206 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: and Fiser does the experiment. Then they give cryptic results, 207 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: just top line data, no underlying data, and they just 208 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: put out a press release saying everybody needs to get 209 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: a booster based on what because Fiser is telling us 210 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: in a press release. The next day, the CDC parrots 211 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: the whole thing out. Now, look, older folks need a booster, 212 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: but for young people, I mean the FDA just voted 213 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: down boosters for everybody two and a half weeks ago. 214 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: Whatever happened to those experts. I didn't remember any occasion 215 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: where a pharmaceutical company could report on its own tests 216 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 1: on its own drug, basically validated self send it out 217 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: and have it actually accepted as though it was an 218 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: independent trial. I have great respect Profiser, which is a 219 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,359 Speaker 1: remarkable company, and they obviously have a brilliant marketing department 220 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: because they pulled this off. But it's crazy. There's no 221 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: independent validation. And one of the things I noticed, for example, 222 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: was at the Center for Disease Control refuses to recognize 223 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: that there is natural immunity. There's been like one hundred 224 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: and forty one research studies that confirm natural immunity is 225 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: the same as vaccine immunity. From your perspective, why do 226 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: you think CDC refuses to accept the natural immunity means 227 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: that you actually don't need a shot because you're already immune. 228 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 1: You know, it's one of the greatest failures of our 229 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: public health leadership, and it comes from an old school 230 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: mentality that I don't believe something until you show me 231 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: a randomized control trial, and until I see that trial, 232 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: it's not true. That's an old school medical thinking. And 233 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: you know, look at our medical leaders, their old school Fauci, Collins, Kessler. 234 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: I mean, they've had some great contributions in science. I 235 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: respect them, but they're dinosaurs. I mean, they talk and 236 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: they have a different perspective, and when you talk to 237 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: some of the fresh minds and science, they'll tell you 238 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: why is our starting hypothesis natural immunity doesn't work. Starting 239 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: hypothesis should be it works just like it did for 240 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: the other hot coronaviruses, stars and mers until proven otherwise. 241 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: And so, as you know, I've been just basically doing 242 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: a one hundred percent public health for the last five 243 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: years of my career. In the last two years at 244 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins have been focused on COVID and it was 245 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: very clear to me that when we had a limited 246 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: vaccine supply and people were still dying last year in January, 247 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: we shouldn't be giving it to people already immune. Immunizing 248 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: people already immune is near insanity, and we had all 249 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: these people dying who were clamoring for the vancs. And 250 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: so I started writing and talking till I'm blew in 251 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: the face five op eds, as you know, going on 252 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: TV almost every day talking about natural immunity. And then 253 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: finally all these scientists around the country tell me, you know, Marty, 254 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: thank you. I want to talk about this, but there's 255 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: a lot of pressure on me at my institution or 256 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: I've been bullied, or I've been threatened here at my institution, 257 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: or I've been shunned because I talk about natural immunity 258 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: because it's seen as your anti vax. Because we got 259 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: the edict from on high, from Fauci and friends, that 260 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: every human being needs to be vaccinated, period. So anything 261 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: that challenges that, the fact that some kids are super 262 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: low risk and may not really benefit, or there may 263 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: be vaccine complications we see in young boys, or the 264 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: dosing is too close together three weeks, no vaccines given 265 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: three or four weeks apart. That was a mistake. It 266 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: was a mistake with good intentions because they try to 267 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: get the trial done quickly, so they put the doses 268 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: so close together. We now see all these side effects 269 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: and complications of that early second dose. It should have 270 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: been spaced out three months, and subsequent studies have found 271 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: that is the optimal strategy, best immunity, best durability, lower 272 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: side effect profile, and it's true of every other vaccine 273 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: in mankind. So anything that you would say that challenges 274 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: this dogma that the FDA rubber stamped a two dose 275 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: regiment for all Americans was seen as anti vats, and 276 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: we began a modern era McCarthyism, so that I would 277 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: talk to public health officials and say, look, the data 278 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: are clear. All these scientists around the country are reaching 279 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: out to me saying thank you for speaking up on 280 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: natural immunity. I can't do it. I don't have the 281 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: platform or I get bullied. And so our public health 282 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: officials and I'm not going to name them or suggest 283 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: anyone in particular, but I talk to them privately. They say, yes, Marty, 284 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: natural immunity appears real and durable, but we're afraid if 285 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: we say something, then people may choose to go out 286 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: and get the infection rather then get vaccinated, because they 287 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: might think natural immunity is better or an easier way. 288 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 1: In fact, some research shows it's better than vaccinated immunity. 289 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: And I tell them, look, we can be honest with 290 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: people about natural immunity and encourage vaccination among the nonimmune. 291 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: At the same time, we can be honest. Why this paternalism. 292 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: I mean, we've seen this again and again in medicine 293 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: and the days of pregnancy testing, there was this blockade. 294 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: The old Guard establishment did not want women to have 295 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: home pregnancy tests because they felt they couldn't interpret the news, 296 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: and there was this intense paternalism. We're seeing it again now, 297 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: and we're seeing it with the sort of waging World 298 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: War three on mild infection among the immune. Wouldn't the 299 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: rational strategy early have been to focus the vaccine on 300 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: health workers and the very elderly. So you'd want to 301 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: go into nursing homes, you'd want to go into places 302 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 1: where you have a large number of people over seventy 303 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: or over eighty, and you'd want to make sure that 304 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: the people who were going to most consistently be dealing 305 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: with the disease were also immune. And fairly early, I 306 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: think we had enough vaccine that had we targeted it, 307 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: we would have covered those two populations and dramatically lowered 308 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: the death rate, particularly for the elderly. That's right. We 309 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: should have done that, But instead we had this massive, 310 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: ugly bureaucracy putting out complicated guidance on group to be 311 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: and it left states and decision paralysis. By the way, 312 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: the guidance from the CDC officially came out two weeks 313 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: after the vaccine was distributed, so they had nine months 314 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 1: to turn in their homework, and they chose to turn 315 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: it in after the class was over, and then it 316 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: left people in this paralysis and healthcare workers. They should 317 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: have specified frontline healthcare workers. We don't need a twenty 318 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: two year old estetician doing botox who already had COVID 319 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: and doesn't even need it, being the very first person 320 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 1: getting it. In December when it came out, we saw that, 321 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: and of course I wrote several articles saying, look, you 322 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: have a conversation about racial equality with Black Lives Matter, 323 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: and then ironically, guess who's getting the vaccine the second 324 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: it becomes available. People with power and influence insert themselves 325 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: in the vaccine line just because they can, essentially saying, 326 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: my life matters more. It was massively mishandled by the CDC. 327 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 1: Along the same line, there was some decision to minimize 328 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: the power of therapy and maximize the focus on containment 329 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: at a point where it was clear they'd lost the 330 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: containment fight. Still is still is a problem. We still 331 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: hear these people only singularly focused on COVID zero, which 332 00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: is an irrational, really a delusional concept, especially given the 333 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: Animal Kingdom conversation we just had. They're just shooting for 334 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: COVID zero, hunt and trace and lock up everybody who 335 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: tests positive. We should be focusing on hospitalization. It's not 336 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: positive test results, but they're focused on covid zerone and 337 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,959 Speaker 1: they're only singularly focused on vaccines, so it comes at 338 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: the total exclusion of therapeutics. And in my amazement, almost 339 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: in a tragic way, I read the study on a fluvoxamine, 340 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: an antidepressant that's been around for the entire pandemic. It's 341 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: like four bucks, and the data are clear that it 342 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: reduces COVID hospitalizations by up to fifty percent reduces COVID 343 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: mortality by up to ninety one percent. Now, these are 344 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: not fringe studies. It's not ivermectin and hydroxy where you've 345 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: got mixed results and people come in and try to 346 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: figure out how to make sense of it. All. One 347 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 1: hundred percent of the data is favorable, dramatically favorable, and 348 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: there's zero data to the contrary, and there's a known mechanism. 349 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: It's a drug that's been around for a long time. 350 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: Never once have we heard about it. These studies are 351 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: in JAMMA and Lancet. These are not small journals. I 352 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: talked to doctors. They've never heard of it because Faucci's 353 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: never mentioned it, and we have this intense hundred percent 354 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: monofocus on vaccines. It's come at the exclusion of fluvoxamine, steroid, nebulizers, 355 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 1: sailing nasal spray, monoclonal l antibodies. I mean, no one 356 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: should be dying of COVID right now. Nobody should be 357 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: dying of COVID with rare exceptions, given the incredible power 358 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: of these therapeutics that can be used in combination. And 359 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: now we're going to add Murk and Visor's anti viral 360 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: drug which by the way, our pan coronavirus anti virals, 361 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: they work against all variants. No one should be dying 362 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: of COVID right now. You know, I worked with Fauci 363 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: a little bit in the eighties when he was truly 364 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: heroic and we were dealing with HIV AIDS. In fact, 365 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 1: I did panels on questions like would you be worried 366 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: if your waiter had HIV and the answer courses no, 367 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: not if all you're doing is having dinner. And it 368 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: was a very serious effort, partly I think driven by 369 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: the gay community, to make sure that people did not 370 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: exaggerate the risk of HIV AIDS and did not stigmatize 371 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 1: people who got it. Fauci's a world class scientist, despite 372 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: his recent television personality. Why wouldn't he understand the core 373 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: point you're making, which is it is a goofy idea 374 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: to try to get to a zero population of COVID 375 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: now that it's a worldwide virus. It's inconceivable. We have 376 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: tracked down and done a pretty good job with things 377 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: like polio, but these kind of viruses are much more 378 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: mutational than polio and much deeper in the animal population, 379 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: And it strikes me that inevitably, once it broke loose, 380 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: you were going to have to get around to figuring 381 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: out a way to cure it rather than avoided. Because 382 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: I don't know if any experience where a commonly spread 383 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: virus can be successfully destroyed. This isn't like a handful 384 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: of things we've been pretty good at. I agree one 385 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: hundred percent, dude. There are four other coronaviruses that have 386 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: circulated every year that are seasonal for decades. A matter 387 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: of fact, maybe for centuries. We just only started DNA 388 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: sequencing in the last seventy years. I agree with you. 389 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: First of all, doctor Facci is a gentleman. I mean, look, 390 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,239 Speaker 1: I've disagreed with him on almost every aspect of the 391 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: government's response to COVID and these other issues we're talking about, 392 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: but he cannot deny it. He's a gentleman. He's had 393 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: significant contributions to science and with HIV, and I reached 394 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: out to him and I said, look, I just want 395 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 1: you to know, as I'm out there giving a different perspective, 396 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: it's not that I don't respect you. It's just that 397 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: I have a different opinion, medical opinion, and that should 398 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: be healthy, it should be good. We used to have 399 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 1: an open dialogue, not concil the other opinions. And by 400 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: the way, you couldn't have been more than gracious. I 401 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: mean saying, you know, Marty, I respect you and thank you. 402 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: He said, I think we're more aligned than you know. 403 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: It may appear he's a gentleman, but I think there's 404 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: a bandwagon effect in politics, and you're more the expert 405 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: on this. But when you get out sort of these 406 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: talking points and let's rally in directly from the President 407 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: of the White House, Okay, here's the edict vaccinate America. 408 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: Every single human being with two feet get a vaccine. 409 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,719 Speaker 1: It's like that may be easy for marketing and for 410 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 1: sound bites, but it's not medically precise. Being medically precise 411 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 1: would be honest with people and say, look, you had COVID, 412 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: You've got circulating antibodies. You can get a dose of 413 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: a vaccine, but there's no scientific evidence that you have to. 414 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: We've ruined lives, careers, people fired. They've got circulating antibodies, 415 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: but they are antibodies that are not recognized by the government. 416 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 1: They have antibodies that neutralize the virus, but they are 417 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: not recognized by the government. How crazy is that? Well, well, 418 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: in the same line, it strikes me that you've got 419 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: two different challenges here that I really can't understand how 420 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: the scientific elites have coped with them. One is, as you, 421 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: we were talking about the theoretical improbability of a strategy 422 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: of trying to go for zero COVID when it's now 423 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: a worldwide, very widely distributed, and rapidly evolving system. The 424 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: idea of zero creates almost a crazy kind of goal. 425 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: And the second is objective data. I mean, one of 426 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: the things we pulled together for this conversation is if 427 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: you look at college football. I was really struck with 428 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: us when I watched the Michigan Ohio State game on television. 429 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: I think it's the largest football stadium in the country, 430 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: and she got like one hundred and six thousand or 431 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: one hundred and ten thousand fans, zero mass because they're 432 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: all drinking and screaming. All of the effort early on 433 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: to have choirs not saying, and then you watched all 434 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: these Michiganders going nuts. And before the football season began, 435 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: the weekly average infection rate on a five week rolling 436 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: period was point four four percent. After the football season started, 437 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: it dropped to point one eight. Now at some point 438 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: you would think if you look at the number of 439 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: people who went to football games, both professional and college 440 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: and high school in the last couple of months, you 441 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: would begin to wonder about the whole way in which 442 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: we have structured the model of the disease spreading, because 443 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: these did not become super spreader events. Yeah, my research 444 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: team just put together this analysis and published it in 445 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: the hell and just tweeted it out. The rate of 446 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: the infection and the population before the SEC started in 447 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: the home county of the places where the stadium events 448 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: occurred was point three five percent. Afterwards it went to 449 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: point eight percent. It had a dramatic decline after tens 450 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: of thousands of people have gathered. And I've been to 451 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: the Big House in Michigan. It's pretty remarkable by the 452 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: way those seats are tight. It's the largest stadium for 453 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: a reason. I mean, they are packed in there. And 454 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: JAMA put out a study again completely dismissed by the 455 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: medical establishment of public health officials. This is in our 456 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: top medical journal journal American Medical Association titled contact in 457 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: Starskovie two infections among college football athletes during the SEC 458 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: and they go through all the football games and they 459 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: basically conclude that there was no transmission. Now, these are 460 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: also low risk people, which you've got is a second 461 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: pandemic that's set in after the COVID pandemic, which is 462 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: a new pandemic of lunacy of Georgetown University telling people 463 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: we're going to randomly test you and if you're positive, 464 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: we're going to put you in a jail cell basically 465 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: a hotel room in solitary confinement for ten days. If 466 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: you leave, you could lose your tuition. We'll drop off 467 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: food once a day at the door. That's what they're 468 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: doing at Georgetown Amherst. All vaccinated and you still have 469 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: to wear a mask and all this University of Massachusetts 470 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: Amherst now requiring boosters. I mean, what is the risk 471 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: of a fully vaccinated American getting hospitalized from COVID. It's 472 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: one in twenty six thousand, and that one person has 473 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: an average age of seventy three. What are we doing 474 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: to these kids? I think what we're describing is a 475 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: sociological pattern that's really worth investigating an understanding because it 476 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: fundamentally breaks with science. And I don't know to what 477 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: degree it was the funding by Bill Gates of vaccines 478 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: in a worldwide basis that created a class of people 479 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: who got together at conferences and in effect brainwash themselves 480 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: so that if he just chant vaccinate, vaccinate, everything will 481 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: be fine. But it's clear that there ought to be 482 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,479 Speaker 1: very profound hearings and investigations by Congress. If we had 483 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: a Congress which was able to deal with science, that 484 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: would look at the fact that the public health system 485 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: in the United States is just plain broken and it's 486 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: now susceptible to waves of information that are totally non 487 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: scientific based on political prejudice or cultural prejudice, and as 488 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: a result, we probably had a lot more people die 489 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: than should have and we certainly have damaged if you 490 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: look at the impact on young children, we have certainly 491 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: damaged millions of people who did not need to be 492 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,479 Speaker 1: hurt in order to contain this particular disease, which is 493 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: simply one more outbreak like stars look mirrors, like the 494 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: bird flu. I mean, these things are going to keep happening, 495 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: and we had better have a national discussion about a 496 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: more competent, more rational, and more scientifically based approach. This 497 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: as a non medical person, just as a historian, that's 498 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: kind of my take of what we've lived through for 499 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: the last two years. You know, we used to have 500 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: along the lines of what you're suggesting, We used to 501 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: have an open dialogue where it was not the science. 502 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: It's not this is the science. Science is an evolving 503 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: strategy that changes based on data that comes in over time. 504 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: And instead we've got this sort of political approach to 505 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: science and then canceled the dissenting opinions. And what you 506 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: see is that when you have this oligarchy in science, 507 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: a small group of people are making all the decisions 508 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: on COVID. Let's be honest, a very small group of 509 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: people are influencing all the medical community, public policy, and 510 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: its Faucian, Collins and Kestler behind the scenes and they're 511 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: making all the decisions. Now. A lot of their decisions 512 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: are right and good. But when you have that degree 513 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: of sort of shutting out and crowding out other views 514 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: and using the idea of we have to stick together, 515 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: even if we have different ideas, we have to stay 516 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: on point. We have to carry this out to its completion. 517 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: And what you end up with is a lot of 518 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: group think. And so we had it on failure to 519 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: warn of the pandemic. Doctor Faunci was not alarmed. You 520 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: can go back in the emails that have surface with 521 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: the FOIA. Everybody was asking them, head of the NFL 522 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: bank leaders, hey, is this something I need to take seriously. Clearly, 523 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: he was not sounding an alarm when many of us 524 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: were running around on cable news sounding the alarm. And 525 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: then we had this idea from him and his colleagues 526 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: that it was surface transmission. It wasn't airborne, it was 527 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: surface transmission. Ask any doctor in the United States, not 528 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: every Some of them are really smart and they see 529 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: through this. In a matter of fact, we talk among 530 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: ourselves a lot, but most doctors in United States were 531 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: just falling in line with what doctor Fauci said, wash 532 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: your hands for twenty seconds. If you think of the 533 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: song two songs that you can sing as you wash 534 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: your hand. What were you doing pouring fifty gallons of 535 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: alcohol gel on our grocery bags? It was groupthink And 536 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: one of the most tragic things that you know, I 537 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: have witnessed, and so it's just so painful is the 538 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: group think among doctors to shut out loved ones from 539 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: saying goodbye their dying relatives. That was a human rights violation. 540 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: It went on for way too long. Some places it 541 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: still goes on. It's a disgrace. There are things worse 542 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: than dying. We should have never shut people out, let 543 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: them take the risk say goodbye to their loved one. 544 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: That was a disgrace. It was group think again, and 545 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: then shutting down schools and now ignoring natural immunities. So 546 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: there's a lot of danger to group think. And when 547 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: you have a diversity of ideas, that's important. When you've 548 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: got an oligarchy making all the decisions, it's intribus. Einstein 549 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: made the point that when he came out of school, 550 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: he couldn't get a job teaching, and so he ended 551 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: up working in the patent office for the Swiss government, 552 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: and he said in later years, if he had been 553 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: on a campus, the social pressure would have blocked him 554 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: from developing relativity as a theory, because relativity was so 555 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: unacceptable to the senior physicists at the time, all of 556 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: whom ridiculed it, that it required him, in essence, being 557 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: isolated from the dominant physics thinking in order to generate 558 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: what became the next dominant physics thinking. And I think 559 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: because of his personal experience, he was always very skeptical 560 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: of anyone who thought that we now have the science, 561 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: because science is a process of continuously disproving what you 562 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: thought you knew yesterday morning. You know, you wrote a 563 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 1: terrific book, The Price We Pay. What broke American Healthcare 564 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: and How to fix It. I hope you'll consider doing 565 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: a book in the fairly near future on the public 566 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: health system. We need not just what's wrong with the 567 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: current system, but we have to start thinking about the 568 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: fact that the animal Kingdom has more surprises in store 569 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,839 Speaker 1: for us, and sooner or later we're going to get 570 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: one that has a fatality rate. Somebody point out HIV 571 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: had the highest fatality rate of any virus or any 572 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: disease that had crossed over into humans, even higher than ebola. 573 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: But we've been very fortunate in that. The truth is 574 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,879 Speaker 1: that COVID does not have a particularly high fatality rate 575 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: compared to some of the things that are out there. 576 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: And if we ever get a really contagious, high fatality disease, 577 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: we have got to have a ratty better system for 578 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: coping with it than we currently haven't. You know, you 579 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: would do the country a great service if you outline 580 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 1: what the system we ought to have, not the system 581 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,439 Speaker 1: we do have. Well, thank you. I'll think about writing 582 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: another book. I feel like I just gave birth and 583 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: I can't think about another child. You know what that 584 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: feelings like after writing a book. I know. But on 585 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: the other hand, you're one of those people who's truly 586 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: dedicated to a better republic and a better future. You know. 587 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: I want to just highlight a point you made because 588 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 1: it's so important in the world of pandemic and the 589 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: history of catastrophic pandemics. This was a mild pandemic, you know. 590 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 1: Four hundred thousand kids died. Almost half a million kids 591 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,240 Speaker 1: died of malaria just in the year before COVID nobody cared, 592 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: nobody noticed, nobody covers it. And so what we have 593 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: is this intense focus like heroin, Yeah it's out there, 594 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: it's a problem. But when it's opioids, which is the 595 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: same active ingredient, then it's affecting people and we know 596 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: then it's a crisis. And so we've had influenza seasons 597 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 1: that have accounted for thirty to eighty one thousand deaths 598 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: every year. One of the silver linings of this pandemic 599 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: is we're no longer going to find it acceptable to 600 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: show up to where coughing and sneezing and slobbering sitting 601 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: right next to somebody. But in the world of pandemics, 602 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: we got lucky with a case fatality rate of point 603 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: two percent basically one in two hundred to one and 604 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: six hundred depending on the risk profile. So we got lucky. 605 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: What if a virus came around with a case fatality 606 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: rate of ten percent. I mean, it's very very conceivable, right, 607 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: And it's not a question of are we going to 608 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: have another pandemic. We've already had what seven in our lifetimes, 609 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: We've had sars, mers ebola, Zeka H one N one, 610 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: even polio you know people that remember that from nineteen 611 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,280 Speaker 1: fifty five. We cannot have the FDA sitting around twiddling 612 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 1: their thumbs looking at an application a college review board 613 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,959 Speaker 1: for two months and then having an expert panel vote. 614 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: I mean, look at Merks drug Mulnupervier. The expert panel 615 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: voted two weeks ago to go ahead with it. What's 616 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 1: the FDA doing? What are they doing the vote is done? 617 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: Are they looking for a public notary to put out 618 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,280 Speaker 1: their authorization? I mean, this is the stuff we cannot 619 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: tolerate during a pandemic. And final point on this, my 620 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: research team at Johns Hopkins just at a study of 621 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: where the NIH spent their money last year, the year 622 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: the pandemic hit, and they spent five percent of their 623 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: money on COVID and most of that was at the 624 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: end of the year. So here we had a pandemic 625 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,320 Speaker 1: hit us, and all the big questions were being thrown 626 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: at us in the medical profession. How does it spread? 627 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: When are you most contagious? How long do I need 628 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: a quarantine for? Do masks work? Our kids at risk? 629 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 1: So all of these questions got thrown at us. We 630 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: did not have any answers. We had a void of 631 00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: scientific research. The nih pivoted zero point zero five percent 632 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: of their funding to COVID research in the first three 633 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:05,879 Speaker 1: months of the pandemic. It had no research going on, 634 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: Labs were shut down because of PPE shortages, and you 635 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: had no answers, So you had to void the vacuum 636 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: of scientific data. So guess what answered those questions political opinions. 637 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: In my opinion, that's a failure not of science, but 638 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: a failure of government. Oh, I think that's right, and 639 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 1: I think that is part of the reason. I think 640 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: we have to imagine what a truly effective modern public 641 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: health system would be like and totality, not just a CDC, 642 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: not just your community public health, but the whole process 643 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: by which we absorb new information and respond to new challenges, 644 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: because it will happen again. Given everything you've looked at 645 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 1: in all the studies you've done, what's your advice to 646 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: people about staying safe during the holidays. During the holidays, 647 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: I think one thing that we should keep in mind, 648 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: it's something we've never done well during the pandemic, is 649 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: recognize that the risk of COVID it is not equally 650 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: distributed in the population. And so what we now know 651 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: is that the folks who are still vulnerable are a 652 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 1: very specific segment of the population. They are the twenty 653 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: to twenty five million Americans who are adults with no 654 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: vaccinated immunity and no natural immunity. And if there's someone 655 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 1: in that group that's gathering in a public setting or 656 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:25,800 Speaker 1: it's going to be in close contact, they're going to 657 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: be at risk. And remember, we're still seeing people show 658 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: up at the hospital, and we're still seeing people have 659 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: a lot of regrets about not being vaccinated when they 660 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,720 Speaker 1: have trouble breathing. That's the very specific group of people 661 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,280 Speaker 1: that needs to be careful. Everybody else, in my opinion, 662 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,399 Speaker 1: should feel good about their immune protection. They should feel 663 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: really good about their immunity and live a normal life. Now, 664 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: if you're gathering and you're not sure about someone's immune protection, 665 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: you don't have to worry for yourself. You need to 666 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 1: worry for them. So that's how we need to think 667 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 1: about it. Let's say you've got grandma and a small 668 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: gathering people and everyone's vaccinated but not grandma. If you 669 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: want to be extra sure, you can test yourselves before 670 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:12,239 Speaker 1: you're around grandma. And again, the extra precautions are for 671 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: those who are vulnerable. Everyone else should feel good about 672 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,879 Speaker 1: their immunity and live a normal life. Marty. I want 673 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: to thank you for coming back and joining me again 674 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 1: for a second time. We do want our listeners to 675 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: know that we have a link to your book The 676 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 1: Price We Pay What Broke American Healthcare and How to 677 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 1: Fix It on our showpage at newtsworld dot com. And 678 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 1: have a Merry Christmas, Happy New Year you too, new 679 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: Thanks so much. Thank you to my guest doctor Marty McCarry. 680 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 1: You can get a link to buy his book The 681 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: Price We Pay, What Broke American Healthcare and How to 682 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 1: Fix It on our show page at newtsworld dot com. 683 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: Newts World is produced by Gangwis three sixty and iHeartMedia. 684 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Debbie Myers, our producer is Garnsey Sloan, 685 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 686 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the 687 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: team at Gingridge three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 688 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,359 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 689 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 690 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 691 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: of Newtsworld can sign up from my three free weekly 692 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: columns at Gingwich three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm 693 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 1: Newt Gangwig. This is Newtsworld.