Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Our Heart Radio
Speaker 1: and Shondaland Audio. Hey everybody, I'm Katie Lows and this
Speaker 1: is Katie's Crib, a podcast that gets real about the
Speaker 1: ups and downs and how come nobody ever told me
Speaker 1: of parenting. We swap stories, offer tips, and hold space
Speaker 1: to ask questions and grow. Today we're talking about how
Speaker 1: we as parents, particularly white parents, can help create an
Speaker 1: anti racist society. I sit down with racial justice educator
Speaker 1: and writer Debbie Irving, as well as sociologist and college
Speaker 1: professor doctor Margaret Hagerman to discuss ways we can shape
Speaker 1: our children's environment so that we're not reproducing patterns of
Speaker 1: racial inequality. And of course, a really big part of
Speaker 1: it is starting with ourselves. We've got two interviews for
Speaker 1: you in this episode, so let's go ahead and get
Speaker 1: to it. Here's my first guest. I want to introduce you,
Speaker 1: guys to the wonderful Debbie Irving. She is a racial
Speaker 1: justice educator. She's an author of the book called Waking
Speaker 1: Up White and Finding Myself in the Story of Race,
Speaker 1: which I am very admittingly so too slow to have
Speaker 1: done myself. And as you are, just catching someone who
Speaker 1: is doing this currently. I only got the misinformation that
Speaker 1: I'm now learning we get in school, which you're an educator,
Speaker 1: and I want to get into all of that. But
Speaker 1: like you being from Boston and me being a New Yorker,
Speaker 1: what I did feel growing up in school was that
Speaker 1: slavery has nothing to do with me because I'm from
Speaker 1: the North, correct, and I my people didn't do all
Speaker 1: of that horrible stuff down there. That is a Southern problem, right,
Speaker 1: And I've heard you had that feeling as well. And
Speaker 1: it's not until recently with everything going on in this
Speaker 1: country where I have had to come to terms with
Speaker 1: my own racism. Um how that has been a huge
Speaker 1: part of my life without me knowing, which is white
Speaker 1: privilege and of itself, and really trying to learn quickly
Speaker 1: so that I can be a good mom, but also
Speaker 1: realizing it's going to take my whole life to to
Speaker 1: truly understand unlearned what I know and relearn some good
Speaker 1: stuff thanks to people like you. So tell me about
Speaker 1: the Boston thing. Well, the Boston thing, so yeah, we
Speaker 1: I absolutely I got this message that we were all
Speaker 1: squeaky clean in the North, but those bad people in
Speaker 1: the South, you know, they were the racists, and I
Speaker 1: had no idea how much racism was happening right under
Speaker 1: my nose, all around me. And I think it's really
Speaker 1: important to make a connection to what we're talking about
Speaker 1: with the squeaky cooing North and color blind, because they
Speaker 1: go together. So I'm musing what I had. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: you're getting with me. So I also grew up in
Speaker 1: a house where we didn't talk about it. It was considered.
Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone told me that talking about
Speaker 1: race was rude, but uh, you know that kids pick
Speaker 1: things up so quickly. All and if you read my book,
Speaker 1: you know my opening question to my mother is whatever
Speaker 1: happened to all the Indians? Well she got so, she behaved,
Speaker 1: she was Her answer was so unlike anything she'd ever
Speaker 1: said that you know, she told me that the Indians
Speaker 1: had drank themselves to death. And she gave me a
Speaker 1: kind of a horror story. It was so out of
Speaker 1: character and so uncomfortable that that's all I needed to know.
Speaker 1: Never go there again. That shushing like that is not
Speaker 1: it's rude. It's rude. It's rude. So you know, in
Speaker 1: that conversation happened in the context of it never being
Speaker 1: spoken about and think about so I was born in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty. Uh, this is the right in the civil
Speaker 1: rights movement, and color blind becomes a political position. You know,
Speaker 1: we're going to have color blind policies, which presumes are
Speaker 1: such a thing as race neutral, which now as we
Speaker 1: understand bias, there is no such things girl, right, But boy,
Speaker 1: did that philosophy, that ideology leak out into the ideological
Speaker 1: ether that we were all in because every every most
Speaker 1: people I know, unless they had very intentional parents who
Speaker 1: understood racism, and we're unpacking it and that excuse much
Speaker 1: more to families of color who need to understand it
Speaker 1: to survive. But I made very few white families, um,
Speaker 1: who are out of the sixties. And that can mean
Speaker 1: you who were raised by parents who that's right, out
Speaker 1: of the right, that's right. What since it wasn't spoken
Speaker 1: about in your house? What was your whiteness awakening? Like,
Speaker 1: here's mine. You're looking at it, and I have to say,
Speaker 1: you know, like I did work in Shonda Land for
Speaker 1: a decade and it is the greatest place in the
Speaker 1: world where my boss is a powerful black woman, The
Speaker 1: lead of my show is a powerful black woman. It
Speaker 1: is a place of work where it feels like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is just how things are, and it's not until
Speaker 1: now stepping out where I'm like, holy crap, this is
Speaker 1: a nightmare. You know. Like I literally got to work
Speaker 1: eighty hours a week for ten years in Utopia and
Speaker 1: producing content that that was actually you know, I was
Speaker 1: so grateful for, like you know, Grey's Anatomy and other
Speaker 1: shows that started to portray for my children who are
Speaker 1: now twenty two and five, Um, a world that was
Speaker 1: not all white, you know, and where the people of
Speaker 1: color were not like the custodians or or or in
Speaker 1: jail or something like. We're fully embodied characters with with
Speaker 1: you know, complicated loves like any human being. So that's
Speaker 1: where I've worked for a decade. It always felt like, well,
Speaker 1: things are so great here, and we're making such moves
Speaker 1: and strides, you know, and now it's just I mean, look,
Speaker 1: this horrible stuff is obviously been going on forever. Um,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't my norm. It wasn't my every day
Speaker 1: even around a lot of black people in Hollywood. Um. So,
Speaker 1: so I think I have a pathetic little um look
Speaker 1: alike to you, like a little parallel story. Tell me
Speaker 1: so I got. I grew up in white bubble Winchester,
Speaker 1: which is this affluent, you know, uh neighborhoods. Step and
Speaker 1: then I went to white bubble Kenyon College in Ohio.
Speaker 1: And then I come back and I immediately get a
Speaker 1: job trying to raise money for underprivileged, under resourced kids
Speaker 1: and inner city neighborhoods. And so for the first time
Speaker 1: in my life, I find myself like going to some
Speaker 1: neighborhoods and they don't look anything like mine. And and
Speaker 1: it's so clear to me that there's a correlation between shiny,
Speaker 1: big houses and green lawns and white people. And I
Speaker 1: am speaking now in a black white paradigm as opposed
Speaker 1: to complicating a little bit more, which I can do later.
Speaker 1: And and uh going to neighborhoods with dilapidated houses and
Speaker 1: schools with literally broken windows. Um, and those neighborhoods were
Speaker 1: populated by black folks, and yet we weren't supposed to
Speaker 1: talk about it because it was rude. Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: supposed to be raising money to create after school programs
Speaker 1: for these kids. And so I was on fire. I
Speaker 1: was like, this is terrible. You know, nobody should have
Speaker 1: to live in these conditions, and um, I've went out
Speaker 1: to raise money, which I could do. I thought I
Speaker 1: was a great fundraiser. It turns out I had really
Speaker 1: good social connections, you know, more white privilege and also
Speaker 1: white arrogance, white entitlement, like all of that was in
Speaker 1: me and I'm sure it's still in me and plenty
Speaker 1: of ways. And so that experience UM set me on
Speaker 1: a course of starting to join diversity committees trying to learn.
Speaker 1: And yet as I sat on diversity committees that that
Speaker 1: elephant in the room feeling was ever there, and no
Speaker 1: one ever turned to me, which I think they would
Speaker 1: do today and say you have to examine your own
Speaker 1: whiteness debby UM. So I ended up being um coddled,
Speaker 1: I think by people of color who wanted access to
Speaker 1: the wealth I had access to UM, and that allowed
Speaker 1: me to stay in this really sickening white savior role
Speaker 1: for years. So I thought I was doing it. Started
Speaker 1: in the in the performing arts on the man I saw,
Speaker 1: I see where you're coming from. Wow, okay. See. Then
Speaker 1: I became an elementary school teacher, and I carried my
Speaker 1: saviorism there and and you know, in retrospect, it's just
Speaker 1: stunning to me that I didn't dig more deeply into
Speaker 1: what is this elephant in the room? Feeling like, why
Speaker 1: am I not as appreciated as I think I should
Speaker 1: be would probably be a really awful way to say that. Um.
Speaker 1: And it was at the age of forty eight. I'm
Speaker 1: sixty now. It was amazing. I know you guys can't
Speaker 1: see her because we're listening, but amazing. They'll be a
Speaker 1: picture up on will post, okay. Um. So it wasn't
Speaker 1: until the age of forty eight that I went back
Speaker 1: to get my masters in special education and there was
Speaker 1: a required first course called Racial and Cultural Identities. I
Speaker 1: thought I was going there to learn about other people's
Speaker 1: children so I could get better at teaching them big
Speaker 1: air quotes around them, And instead it was a six
Speaker 1: month deep dive into my own racial and cultural identity, which, oh,
Speaker 1: by the way, I didn't even know I had. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because you've been doing great, helpful work in black communities
Speaker 1: for a very long time. You were like good, well,
Speaker 1: so I thought, yeah, And the more I learned so
Speaker 1: I also was a history major. The history I learned
Speaker 1: in that six month graduate school course it just unraveled me.
Speaker 1: It I started I carried a bottle of ginger role
Speaker 1: with me. It made me so sick to my stomach
Speaker 1: because my whole world it was that this is not
Speaker 1: the country I was told. That that sort of means
Speaker 1: my family is not the family I was told. And
Speaker 1: I'm not the person I was old and I've been
Speaker 1: out there making an ass of myself and probably creating
Speaker 1: more harm than good for twenty five years. And how
Speaker 1: come it took a mandatory graduate level course for this
Speaker 1: to happen? And this is why I were so happy
Speaker 1: to have you on Katie's Crip because even though, let's say,
Speaker 1: you know, this is a mom podcast and a lot
Speaker 1: of our moms are listening, but you can't deny that
Speaker 1: the work starts with our personal self. Until we are
Speaker 1: able to have that sort of realization that you've had
Speaker 1: and where you fit into all of this and what
Speaker 1: you are guilty of and we all are, and your
Speaker 1: own racism, my own racism, and my own white privilege,
Speaker 1: and really start to have honest conversations with yourself, with
Speaker 1: your family, with your people who your care taking your
Speaker 1: child with, then you can't, uh, I just I don't
Speaker 1: think we can do a good job as parents until
Speaker 1: we examine that stuff, right, I agree, And you know,
Speaker 1: I think there's an interesting So I think you, um,
Speaker 1: one of the things that you've discussed on this podcast
Speaker 1: with your listeners postpartum depression, is that, right, A ton? Yeah? Okay.
Speaker 1: So I had horrible postpartum depression and nobody so my
Speaker 1: first child was born in UM and nobody was talking
Speaker 1: about it. I mean, people weren't even on talking about
Speaker 1: good luck. Yeah, good luck. So I totally suffered in silence,
Speaker 1: which of course made it worse. And when I finally
Speaker 1: started to, you know, eke out to people like I've
Speaker 1: really been struggling with postpartum depression, UM, people would say,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I did too, or my sisters had
Speaker 1: a terrible time with that, or you know, I just
Speaker 1: learned my mother, you know, thirty years ago. So it's
Speaker 1: that kind of thing that once we start speaking openly
Speaker 1: about something, we can start to understand how prevalent it is.
Speaker 1: We can start to think together about out how to
Speaker 1: work towards solutions, how to alleviate suffering and not feel
Speaker 1: so alone and not feel like I felt like I
Speaker 1: was seriously a flawed human being for having postpartum depression.
Speaker 1: Absolutely well, it's so inherently like I had it too.
Speaker 1: But it's like to to to you feel like you're
Speaker 1: not a woman, like how how could I my my
Speaker 1: my body did this or did you whatever? Like I
Speaker 1: am a mother, Like that's what I'm supposed to be
Speaker 1: doing in the most primal way. I'm supposed to and
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to like it. And I don't like this
Speaker 1: and I can't control my feelings at all, like I'm miserable,
Speaker 1: right right, So here are the number of times you
Speaker 1: said should. There's a lot of that around umledging our
Speaker 1: white privilege. I should, you know, I should, or you know,
Speaker 1: or I'm a good person, like I have to maintain
Speaker 1: my facade. And that is the worst approach because as
Speaker 1: long as we are super invested in being seen as
Speaker 1: good people, we can't just sort of say, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I've created I've participated in a in a corrupt system.
Speaker 1: I have perpetuated and perpetuated it. Oh, now that explains
Speaker 1: the time I had that conversation three years ago with
Speaker 1: that person and I couldn't you know. It's we can't
Speaker 1: let all that in until we can understand that it
Speaker 1: is possible to be a good and beautiful and well
Speaker 1: meaning white person and also have um soaked in racist
Speaker 1: ideas our whole lives and acted them out in ways
Speaker 1: we don't even know. Um, can you quickly just explain
Speaker 1: to me white privilege, because I think of everyone I've
Speaker 1: been listening to, you do such a great job to
Speaker 1: explain this does not mean money people, right? Right? Which
Speaker 1: was I mean? When I first heard the term white
Speaker 1: privilege years ago, I did not think it applied to me,
Speaker 1: and I could not be I was not from a
Speaker 1: rich household, you know. I was like, Oh, no, no,
Speaker 1: that's not They're not talking about me. Well, I'm talking
Speaker 1: about me and my way privilege. Can you explain that? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So I think in the context of this conversation, a
Speaker 1: social justice conversation, UM, the word privilege does not mean money.
Speaker 1: It means lack of discrimination. So if you think of um,
Speaker 1: discrimination as the short end of the stick, well, you
Speaker 1: can't have a short end of a stick without a
Speaker 1: long end. Privilege is the long end. So I have
Speaker 1: sis gender privilege. Um, I have heterosexual privilege. You know
Speaker 1: I didn't have to I've been able. I was able
Speaker 1: to marry and be public about the person I fell
Speaker 1: in love with That was really convenient. I didn't you
Speaker 1: know the laws fit, the customs, the norms, public perception
Speaker 1: at fit. Um, I have Christian privilege, you know, we're
Speaker 1: in a Christian country. I have able bodied, temporarily able
Speaker 1: bodied privilege. Um, I do have privilege, and I have
Speaker 1: racial privilege. Racial privilege in this country is called white privilege.
Speaker 1: It is possible to have white privilege and be impoverished
Speaker 1: or working class. And I think it's really hard for
Speaker 1: those folks to understand what white privilege will look like. Um,
Speaker 1: it looks like because you're white, you're walking around the
Speaker 1: store holding something is a different situation than someone than
Speaker 1: a black person walking around a store who might get followed,
Speaker 1: or being in an elevator alone with a woman or
Speaker 1: something like that. Correct, that's yeah, And we can make
Speaker 1: a much longer list. It would. It looks like if
Speaker 1: you have children and those kids go to school, Um,
Speaker 1: impoverished white children are given extra attention and and teachers
Speaker 1: bring them food and really, you know, want to say
Speaker 1: this family is down on their luck, I'm really going
Speaker 1: to help this kid and offer kids of color It's like,
Speaker 1: well that family is around damn fault, you know, they
Speaker 1: got themselves into this mess. Is absolutely heartbreak. Okay, the kids,
Speaker 1: the white kids will see themselves all over the school curriculum.
Speaker 1: They have something to aspire to. Kids of color may
Speaker 1: never see themselves in the curriculum. The white kids will
Speaker 1: see themselves and more and more likely to see themselves,
Speaker 1: and administrators and teachers. Not so for kids of color. Um, God,
Speaker 1: running so deep, I don't even know. I mean, it's just,
Speaker 1: this is four hundred years of the system. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is just it's a lot. It's a lot to unpack.
Speaker 1: Now what I think your work is so incredible because
Speaker 1: you have this amazing site and we will put a
Speaker 1: link to it. UM that gives us tools um of
Speaker 1: things that we can be doing when we're waking up ourselves,
Speaker 1: and then tools that we can transform this anxiety and
Speaker 1: in action to actual empowerment and action UM as ourselves
Speaker 1: as individuals, and then that translate it into ourselves as parents.
Speaker 1: If you ask me, um, so, can you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about your twenty one day racial Equit Habit
Speaker 1: building challenge. It's so good, it's so good. So one
Speaker 1: of the most incredible mentors you know, any white person
Speaker 1: who does this work well is surrounded by mentors of color.
Speaker 1: And one of my first and um still someone I
Speaker 1: talked to all the time, Dr Eddie Moore Jr. He's
Speaker 1: a black man who founded the White Privileged Conference one
Speaker 1: years ago, back when everyone was telling him you can't
Speaker 1: name it that um and you know, he just persevered
Speaker 1: and persevered, has grown to this huge conference. You know
Speaker 1: Robin D'Angelo who won't right for so she's she's out
Speaker 1: of that. A lot of us have done are some
Speaker 1: of our real boot camp work at that conference. So anyway,
Speaker 1: Dr Moore called me one day and he said, you know,
Speaker 1: because he and I have been talking about, isn't it
Speaker 1: doesn't drive you crazy? After our workshops? How everyone, you know,
Speaker 1: the white people always say tell me what to do
Speaker 1: And we're like, well, you just had this major Like
Speaker 1: can't you just sit with this brand new information we
Speaker 1: gave you? And then we realized, wait, that's really harsh.
Speaker 1: People do need something to do, so um and I
Speaker 1: think he used to say to people, just go do
Speaker 1: something every day, three six, five days a year. So
Speaker 1: he said, you know what, It's just I just came
Speaker 1: up with the idea debbie of twenty one days. I
Speaker 1: think that's that's what they whoever they are, say, that's
Speaker 1: what it takes to to break a habit or yea
Speaker 1: hand in hand, right, And um, I loved the idea,
Speaker 1: so we just he had that idea and like three
Speaker 1: days later we had this thing and it is great
Speaker 1: and it's been adopted. I mean, I think if you
Speaker 1: google it, it's like, you know, and twenty million hits
Speaker 1: because the entire organizations take the plan and make it
Speaker 1: their own. So the all you have to do is
Speaker 1: do one thing a day for twenty one days, and
Speaker 1: we give you the things. We just did a twenty
Speaker 1: one day version about protest and rebellion to saw that
Speaker 1: that was amazing, and it has like it's like it's
Speaker 1: like the first step will be all these links of
Speaker 1: what to read, and then it will be all these
Speaker 1: links of things to listen to. And what's great for
Speaker 1: moms who go to your site is that each thing
Speaker 1: tells you how long it is, so you can know,
Speaker 1: my kidnaps this long. I can't fit this podcast or
Speaker 1: this article or this video in, you know what I mean. Um,
Speaker 1: And then and I found that to be super helpful,
Speaker 1: and I love this part of the twenty one day
Speaker 1: you're you become a learner more than a knower. Can
Speaker 1: you talk about this. I'm a huge fan of this
Speaker 1: because I think this really is key for parenting as well.
Speaker 1: And you can talk about this because you have two kids.
Speaker 1: What do you mean by being a learner more than
Speaker 1: a knower? Well, what's it? Can sound easy enough? Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do a little less talking. I'm gonna actually consume,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna learn when I'm sitting with people. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: ask more questions. I'm gonna listen more. The thing about
Speaker 1: becoming a learner more than a knower is that our
Speaker 1: dominant culture in the United States, which is a white culture,
Speaker 1: so dominant white culture, teaches us from a really early
Speaker 1: age to show what you know. We get rewarded for
Speaker 1: what we know. We get grades, you go on, and
Speaker 1: we're competitive around it. You know, we get jobs, we
Speaker 1: get promotions, we get bonuses, we get salaries, um, we
Speaker 1: get lots and lots and lots of cookies for showing
Speaker 1: how much we know. And often we get shunned by
Speaker 1: asking a stupid question because it reveals what we don't know,
Speaker 1: as if somehow we are all supposed to know everything.
Speaker 1: And you know, one of the biggest fears I hear
Speaker 1: from white people is I'm so afraid of saying the
Speaker 1: wrong thing. You know, my god, what if I say
Speaker 1: the wrong thing? And um, how can we how can
Speaker 1: we learn if we aren't acknowledging to ourselves and even
Speaker 1: those around us. I really I am so ignorant on
Speaker 1: this topic. I have so much to learn. And then
Speaker 1: you know, if going to a workshop, for instance, or
Speaker 1: having a relationship with a with a friend or colleague
Speaker 1: of color, or multiple colleagues of color, if you're white. Um,
Speaker 1: often white people have a habit of just talking a lot,
Speaker 1: taking up a lot of space because no one's ever
Speaker 1: asked us not to. Meanwhile, people of color have been
Speaker 1: told not to speak literally during enslavement. Don't speak until
Speaker 1: you're spoken to, and speaking up um often gets people
Speaker 1: of color and trouble if if speaking up includes his
Speaker 1: her their truth. So we have this conversational and balance,
Speaker 1: this taking up space and balance. So by being a
Speaker 1: learner and not a knower, it means you just get
Speaker 1: into a space of just you know, deep humility that
Speaker 1: sounds that's that's very good, And I feel almost parallel
Speaker 1: else to parenthood because it's like you become a mom
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you're like supposed to be
Speaker 1: the expert at being a mom, like you've never done
Speaker 1: it before. I don't give a crap how many books
Speaker 1: you read on motherhood. It's completely different than actually doing it.
Speaker 1: I was a nanny for ten years. I suck at
Speaker 1: being a mom. Some days suck. And I've had a
Speaker 1: lot of hands on experience, you know. Um, but I
Speaker 1: think you know in terms of this topic and racism
Speaker 1: and white privilege. I mean, this is honestly, I've been
Speaker 1: having a ton of conversations with my family and my
Speaker 1: friends in the past three weeks, and this is this.
Speaker 1: This is one of two public conversations I've ever had.
Speaker 1: And so I keep saying my clothing is like soaked
Speaker 1: because I'm so nervous about saying the wrong thing. Um.
Speaker 1: But I also I'm just jumping in. I don't know
Speaker 1: what else to do. I can't keep doing what I've
Speaker 1: been doing or in the ginger real stage, That's why
Speaker 1: I was saying I was carrying around injurrel all the
Speaker 1: time because I felt nauseous. Oh. I mean, when I
Speaker 1: list learned the things I didn't know. I am so horrified, disgusted.
Speaker 1: So now, on top of the twenty one Day Racial
Speaker 1: Equity Habit Building Challenge, you also have put on there
Speaker 1: the twenty one Day Racial Equity Challenge specifically around protests
Speaker 1: and rebellions. Do you think that there is Do you
Speaker 1: encourage parents to be bringing their kids to things like this, like, um,
Speaker 1: do you think it's an important Um? I mean I
Speaker 1: think it's a mix of things. I also think there's
Speaker 1: a pandemic going around, and I think it's really um
Speaker 1: what parents feel comfortable with in terms of safety and
Speaker 1: health and things like that. And it's a personal thing,
Speaker 1: but um, that's really a textual Yeah, it's true because
Speaker 1: it's it does have to do. We do have a pandemic.
Speaker 1: So who in the family has what kind of uh,
Speaker 1: you know, existing conditions? Yeah, and what what town are
Speaker 1: we talking about? Um? I mean my brother is in
Speaker 1: Mill Valley, California, and he and his family have been,
Speaker 1: you know, going out and being a part of the protests. Um.
Speaker 1: If you live in a different part of the world
Speaker 1: and there's more potential for violence, um than you know,
Speaker 1: maybe you don't bring the kids. I think one of
Speaker 1: the most important things is UM, Can your family hold
Speaker 1: the conversation, can you prepare your kids for it, Can
Speaker 1: you help your kids make meaning of what's going on
Speaker 1: at the event, and can you help them process it afterwards?
Speaker 1: And it doesn't mean you have to be an expert
Speaker 1: to be in that position. It means you need to
Speaker 1: have that humility. So I think it's perfectly fine for
Speaker 1: a parent to say, you know, um, my mom and
Speaker 1: dad never took me to anything like this. Uh. Maybe
Speaker 1: that's because there weren't protests in that their particular childhood,
Speaker 1: or you know, because they really wanted me to protect
Speaker 1: me from it. UM. And I think it's really important
Speaker 1: if we're going to be I want our family to
Speaker 1: be engaged citizens. And I think it's important that we
Speaker 1: show up. And it's not fair. You know, the way
Speaker 1: the world is right now, it's not fair. And by
Speaker 1: showing up, I want to be a part of UM
Speaker 1: creating a more fair world. Do you remember the first
Speaker 1: time your kids like noticed a black person or what
Speaker 1: you said? And you might not because you're so deep
Speaker 1: in this work, it might not have even been a thing.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Well I do, and I actually I
Speaker 1: write about it in the book because my daughter, Emily, um,
Speaker 1: was in the third grade. And so I'm in Cambridge,
Speaker 1: Massachusetts and very diverse uh town city, and all of
Speaker 1: the schools it's a lottery system, so all of the
Speaker 1: schools are reflect the demographics of the city. So she's
Speaker 1: in a very diverse classroom. And I was doing the
Speaker 1: dishes one night and she kind of sidled up to
Speaker 1: me and just kind of leaned against me, which was
Speaker 1: very out of the ordinary. And she was dipping her
Speaker 1: hands and the SuDS and just sitting there and then
Speaker 1: standing there and she said, Mom, how come all the
Speaker 1: white parents come to pick their cuds up at school
Speaker 1: and all the black kids get on the bus. Oh,
Speaker 1: there you have it? And what did you say? I said, Now,
Speaker 1: I wasn't I hadn't started I hadn't started that graduate school,
Speaker 1: of course, yet I was still in my superhero and
Speaker 1: I said, Um, you know, Emily, that is such a
Speaker 1: good question, and I don't have the answer, um, And
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's interesting that I answered in such
Speaker 1: an honest, humble way, because it wasn't the energy I
Speaker 1: brought out into the world around this work. But I
Speaker 1: think the way I answered was a was a good
Speaker 1: way to answer. It's it's absolutely fine to model for
Speaker 1: your kids. Here's where I dropped the bet. You don't
Speaker 1: know that you I don't know? Yeah, and to honor
Speaker 1: the question. Yeah, it's a great question. What a good
Speaker 1: question because we never want to stop the question, and
Speaker 1: having our curiosity slapped out of us is a good
Speaker 1: is part of the way this goes away when we're
Speaker 1: supposed to be knowing, knowing, knowing, showing how much we know.
Speaker 1: All the time we turn off. We we kind of
Speaker 1: doll down the parts of our humanity that keep us
Speaker 1: alive and curious. So, um, what I don't like about
Speaker 1: my answer is that that I left it right there,
Speaker 1: and shame on me for that. You know what if
Speaker 1: I had said that is such a good question. I
Speaker 1: don't know why I hadn't thought to ask them. You know,
Speaker 1: I think we can. Let's let's figure it out together,
Speaker 1: you know, let's go talk to some of your teachers.
Speaker 1: So let's was the internet there certainly today you could
Speaker 1: or the other thing you could say is you know,
Speaker 1: I'm I don't know the answer, and I'm sort of embarrassed.
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer. I would love to meet
Speaker 1: you right back here tomorrow night when I'm doing the dishes,
Speaker 1: and I am going to do a little research between
Speaker 1: now and then, so that what you're you're doing a
Speaker 1: lot in that kind of exchange. You're honoring the question, um,
Speaker 1: which will You're being honest, you're modeling that adults don't
Speaker 1: know everything. You're modeling that I care enough to go
Speaker 1: in search of it, and um, and then think of
Speaker 1: the conversation you could have. And then you're buying yourself
Speaker 1: some dang time to figure out right, right, that's such
Speaker 1: a good question. Let me think about it. Probably has
Speaker 1: lots of applications. I mean, because I would have to
Speaker 1: buy myself time. I would be like, I will come
Speaker 1: back to you after mommy has done some real work
Speaker 1: and research to figure out the answer to that. You know,
Speaker 1: and in this time, in this age, you we could
Speaker 1: probably even find a child friendly site with that, and
Speaker 1: you could say, look at this, I found this great
Speaker 1: organization which I would never have known about if you
Speaker 1: hadn't asked me that question. This is really great. Um.
Speaker 1: And you were a because what I for what you said?
Speaker 1: What grades you taught K one too? Oh? My people
Speaker 1: are my people. So if learning what the kids are
Speaker 1: learning in school is so crucial, and you're such an educator,
Speaker 1: how do we stop this whitewashing of history? Like, what
Speaker 1: how do we do? I mean, obviously I don't know.
Speaker 1: I haven't started school yet. I don't know how to
Speaker 1: fight for different textbooks or is that something we need
Speaker 1: to be doing or is it that the school is
Speaker 1: what the school curriculum is, and we just need to
Speaker 1: do our jobs at home to teach them the real truth. Well,
Speaker 1: you certainly need to do that at home pace um,
Speaker 1: And it will vary school district by school district, But
Speaker 1: you know, there's some there are some generalizations I can
Speaker 1: UM feel pretty confident in talking about. Uh. There in
Speaker 1: every town that I've encountered, in every private school I've encountered,
Speaker 1: there is a vocal minority of the wealthiest, most powerful
Speaker 1: parents who do not want to see this kind of change.
Speaker 1: I did not send my child here to learn about this.
Speaker 1: I want them to know Shakespeare and you know, Chaucer
Speaker 1: and um and what one of them. And one of
Speaker 1: the big questions is, um, will this moment change that?
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm seeing the impact of this kind of
Speaker 1: global awakening reach people who I've never seen before. A
Speaker 1: lot of CEO letters are going out, So how will
Speaker 1: that translate into schools? Will schools start to say, oh,
Speaker 1: maybe the thing that I've been hearing about my school
Speaker 1: trying to do that i've been resisting is worth knowing
Speaker 1: more about. Um? Yes, so certainly. And it's not like
Speaker 1: we need to invent a curriculum that teaches all of
Speaker 1: this stuff exists. I mean, you know, the school really
Speaker 1: changing the way we educate our children, UM, I think
Speaker 1: would just be so wonderful for all the kids. It's
Speaker 1: it's just it's changing from this rigid testing to a
Speaker 1: very human center. I mean that's for people who understand
Speaker 1: how to create equitable, racially equitable schools. Um at the
Speaker 1: center of any racially equity equitable move whether it's in healthcare, transportation,
Speaker 1: food supply, education, finance, housing, etcetera. What we're talking about
Speaker 1: is a more humane world. It's the inhumanity of the
Speaker 1: white supremacist culture that we're living in. Is that that's
Speaker 1: the struggle is too. I mean, when you hear defund
Speaker 1: the police, it's let's take some of that budget and
Speaker 1: put it into community workers. So when when people start
Speaker 1: to understand the issue, you will also start to hear
Speaker 1: what the solutions are, and the solutions are always about
Speaker 1: moving towards a more humane way of being. So and
Speaker 1: now here's a complication. Um between here and the paradise
Speaker 1: utopia that we may or may not ever get to,
Speaker 1: is that our public school teachers or so I think
Speaker 1: all school teachers in the United States K to twelve
Speaker 1: are white, and most of those white teachers have not
Speaker 1: done the kind of internal work um that's required and
Speaker 1: so um, you know, imagine a white teacher being told, uh,
Speaker 1: you know you're not you're not teaching my my son,
Speaker 1: you're not teaching my black son, you're not teaching my
Speaker 1: black daughter. Uh. That teacher is very likely going to
Speaker 1: get so defensive, and that white teacher has the power.
Speaker 1: So um. Often what I hear are parents of color
Speaker 1: who go in to speak to teachers and administrators and
Speaker 1: they get labeled the angry, unreasonable parents, and then they
Speaker 1: lose all advocacy over their children. And so it's essential
Speaker 1: and you can't teach what you don't know. There's a
Speaker 1: book by that title, and you can't lead where you
Speaker 1: won't go. That's somebody else's phrase. So we really need
Speaker 1: our teachers to be deep lee on board with doing
Speaker 1: an internal overhaul as well as the systemic overhaul. That's
Speaker 1: what I feel like the moms, the white moms need
Speaker 1: to do as well. Yes, because we could say, I mean,
Speaker 1: you could get all the great books in the world,
Speaker 1: and the kind of conversations that are going to come
Speaker 1: up aren't conversations that you're necessarily ready for. Debbie, you
Speaker 1: are a wealth of help to all of us. And
Speaker 1: it's what's I really I think moms don't have a
Speaker 1: lot of time. I think a lot of the moms
Speaker 1: I've been talking to are like frantically trying to do
Speaker 1: this work and at the same time are having a
Speaker 1: lot It's been very hard because a lot of their
Speaker 1: lives have changed because of coronavirus UM and they're exhausted.
Speaker 1: And that is white privilege. Okay, we know this that
Speaker 1: like black moms and black families have been doing this
Speaker 1: work because they have to since their babies came out
Speaker 1: of the womb. We have gotten to push it off
Speaker 1: and be too tired and we're not going to read
Speaker 1: the book because our kids had a tough day in
Speaker 1: a tantrum whatever the hell it is, um. But what's
Speaker 1: so gried about your site is that it's all very
Speaker 1: centrally located and easily accessible for our mom's listening and like.
Speaker 1: And it is the long haul. It's not like we
Speaker 1: have to be the perfect experts on this in the
Speaker 1: next two weeks. I mean, this is, this is, this is,
Speaker 1: this is, this is a life change. You know, Um,
Speaker 1: before we close out, what is your hope during this time?
Speaker 1: You know? My hope? Um, of course, none of all
Speaker 1: this white waking up matters if it doesn't translate into
Speaker 1: improved material and psychological conditions for Black people, Indigenous people,
Speaker 1: Latin X people, Asian people. And so that's the real measure.
Speaker 1: White people will never be able to say whether or
Speaker 1: not we're doing better or worse. Only our brothers and
Speaker 1: sisters of color can let us know that. And it
Speaker 1: is going to be a long haul. And so with
Speaker 1: all of that in mind, my hope, my greatest hope
Speaker 1: for this moment is that we are on a journey together.
Speaker 1: We are on it. We are going to learn in
Speaker 1: the same way we learned about COVID. You know, we
Speaker 1: just all frantically learned how to be safe around it.
Speaker 1: We're all going to learn about how racism works and
Speaker 1: it's not going to go away as soon as the
Speaker 1: sports and the movies and everything comes back. Um m
Speaker 1: m yeah. And that and and that also that people
Speaker 1: like you and your generation raised the first generation of
Speaker 1: non color blind kids. Mhm. I hope we all look
Speaker 1: to that challenge and you know, just face it head
Speaker 1: on and are brave and make real strides, because we
Speaker 1: definitely can't keep going the way we've been. We can't
Speaker 1: keep going the way we've been parenting around race, no way.
Speaker 1: And I can I can give some bright, bright news
Speaker 1: in there, and that is that, um, the very same
Speaker 1: skills you will use to get better and better at
Speaker 1: having complicated, um, sometimes confusing conversations around race are the
Speaker 1: same skills that you will use to have complicated, hard
Speaker 1: conversations in your marriage and or with your partner and
Speaker 1: with your children as they get older. You know, really
Speaker 1: strong conflict navigation and difficult conversation skills are our skills
Speaker 1: that transfer across all kinds of topics topics exactly. And
Speaker 1: you also, UM, I think that we white people, particularly
Speaker 1: around the topic of race. You know, Robin D'Angelo wrote
Speaker 1: the book White Fragility, which is also a really great read,
Speaker 1: and um, brilliant book, and she's really helped me see
Speaker 1: the way that as a woman in this society, I
Speaker 1: was supposed to be sort of demure and not necessarily
Speaker 1: speak my mind and not rock the boat, and that
Speaker 1: one of the results of that is that, um, I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily know how to speak up effectively. I have
Speaker 1: kind of two modes, you know, I go quiet and
Speaker 1: seld or tie or I you know, lose my ship,
Speaker 1: excuse my friends. And there's and there's this whole world
Speaker 1: in between, which is really really um calm, drama free, intelligent, honest,
Speaker 1: authentic conversation where we think together as human beings. And
Speaker 1: so there are a lot of skills and and emotional
Speaker 1: capacities that we develop, I would say, reclaiming parts of
Speaker 1: our humanity that we develop in this work that translates
Speaker 1: to every single quarter of our lives. It's Debbie Irving.
Speaker 1: You are a gem. It was a pleasure to spend
Speaker 1: some time with you. I can't recommend to our listeners
Speaker 1: enough to visit your website and read your book. Okay,
Speaker 1: just keep going on and on. And I know me too,
Speaker 1: this is wonderful. I'm I'm feeling hope, I'm feeling hopeful,
Speaker 1: and I'm feeling um, I'm just feeling like a lot
Speaker 1: of excitement around being a mom at this time. And
Speaker 1: I hope we get to look back at this first
Speaker 1: generation of kids having the language skills and the action
Speaker 1: skills around race to make our world a better place.
Speaker 1: You know, I'll leave it with one last thing. Um uh.
Speaker 1: There are many cultures, including indigenous culture, where one of
Speaker 1: the ways you lead your life is you think about
Speaker 1: what kind of ancestor do I want to be? WHOA? WHOA?
Speaker 1: What I think I hear you saying is you're feeling
Speaker 1: the responsibility of that and the potential and the excitement
Speaker 1: of that. Absolutely absolutely what answer that for yourself? Listeners?
Speaker 1: What kind of ancestor do you want to be? Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Next up, we've got Dr Margaret Hagerman.
Speaker 1: You guys, I'm so happy and thrilled to bring to
Speaker 1: you today, Dr Margaret Hagerman. I'm going to call her Maggie,
Speaker 1: but she's very fancy, so she goes by Dr Margaret Hagerman.
Speaker 1: But because I like to know her, I'll call her Maggie.
Speaker 1: She is a sociologist. She's the author of the book
Speaker 1: White Kids Growing up with privilege in a racially divided America.
Speaker 1: Her reached, which explores how children and youth learned about racism,
Speaker 1: racial inequality, and racial privilege in their everyday lives. Dr
Speaker 1: Margaret Hagerman, Maggie, thank you so much for taking the time.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you are very busy these days. Um, and
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful you have agreed to join us and
Speaker 1: share your valuable insight. And I wanted to start with, um,
Speaker 1: how how you were brought up? Like you study how
Speaker 1: children learn race, So would you mind sharing a little
Speaker 1: bit how you how race was viewed in your home
Speaker 1: growing up. Sure, So I grew up in a suburban
Speaker 1: area in Massachusetts outside of Boston. Um, and it was
Speaker 1: a predominantly white community. Um, pretty affluent, I would say.
Speaker 1: And um, I remember having a lot of questions about
Speaker 1: race honestly when I was when I was growing up,
Speaker 1: but I didn't have any of the language to talk
Speaker 1: about it. So, like I ran track, for instance, I
Speaker 1: remember like leaving my community to go to a different
Speaker 1: school to run a track meet and noticing that like,
Speaker 1: not only were the people at that school different than
Speaker 1: me in terms of like their race, but also like
Speaker 1: the conditions of the schools. You know, they maybe weren't
Speaker 1: as nice, or they were falling apart or you know. UM.
Speaker 1: And so I remember like noticing all these patterns, but
Speaker 1: then not really feeling comfortable enough to ask anyone about them. UM.
Speaker 1: And it really wasn't until I got to college that
Speaker 1: I took a class and I was like, wow, I
Speaker 1: you know, never thought about all this stuff before. And
Speaker 1: that's really to be clear. You identify white, yes, I
Speaker 1: identify as white. Yeah. And I should say like my
Speaker 1: parents were very open and talking about current events and
Speaker 1: controversial topics, and I do you know, I do feel
Speaker 1: like they gave me some tools, like some analytical tools
Speaker 1: early on. But it really truly wasn't until I was
Speaker 1: in a space where I was challenged, UM, and some
Speaker 1: of the assumptions that I had about the world were
Speaker 1: kind of turned upside down and I had to had
Speaker 1: to think differently and and learned differently. I also grew
Speaker 1: up in a white, um affluent community. Even though it
Speaker 1: was diverse in that there were all different colors in
Speaker 1: my public school, everyone a lot of times stuck to themselves.
Speaker 1: It was only if sports teams would mix and things
Speaker 1: like that. UM, and I just sort of accepted it
Speaker 1: for how that is. And I, you know, I just
Speaker 1: I I already can see that sort of very easy
Speaker 1: trap to fall in because you're raising your kid in
Speaker 1: a certain neighborhood, it goes to a certain school, and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, we're part of the same systemic
Speaker 1: racism that has been perpetuated for hundreds of years. So
Speaker 1: this way that I was raised color blind, now again,
Speaker 1: like I think my parents are so love filled, Like
Speaker 1: I love that I, you know, brought home black black husband.
Speaker 1: Well I have a not black husband, but black boyfriends.
Speaker 1: And my parents never said anything. I mean, the one
Speaker 1: thing they were upset about was one of the dudes
Speaker 1: I was dating was twenty years older than me. That
Speaker 1: was upsetting. But they never brought up race. And I
Speaker 1: still have not had the conversation with them. Did you
Speaker 1: not bring it up because you didn't have the tools?
Speaker 1: Did you not bring it up because you thought it
Speaker 1: was wrong? And you thought in those times, you know,
Speaker 1: the two thousands, there was this whole thing about well,
Speaker 1: I don't see race because we're all equal, and that's
Speaker 1: the way to be. Tell me why that's so wrong.
Speaker 1: I agree with you, But tell our listeners. Why that
Speaker 1: is not the way I will be raising my son. Well,
Speaker 1: I think the reality is that, you know, I'm a sociologist,
Speaker 1: so I'm really into data and sort of what we
Speaker 1: know from from scientific studies, and certainly, like you mentioned
Speaker 1: your kids, like I mean, whether or not you talk
Speaker 1: to your child. I mean, there's research that shows that
Speaker 1: even little kids like three year olds are already noticing
Speaker 1: these patterns. They're noticing differences between themselves and others. They're
Speaker 1: really into sorting, and so all of these kinds of
Speaker 1: developmental processes are underway. And because we live in a
Speaker 1: society where race shape so much of what's around us,
Speaker 1: like you said, where we live, um, the kinds of
Speaker 1: friends that we might have. As you're paying attention to
Speaker 1: this and noticing this at really early ages. So just
Speaker 1: because you don't talk about it, I mean, that doesn't
Speaker 1: change anything. And Um, what I found in interviewing like
Speaker 1: middle school age kids, so they were like between ten
Speaker 1: and thirteen, is that for those that were growing up
Speaker 1: in families that really embraced this color blind approach is
Speaker 1: kind of what you're talking about. They were so insecure
Speaker 1: about talking about race. They had a lot of anxieties
Speaker 1: about being called racist. UM. And they really just weren't
Speaker 1: prepared to live in a diverse democracy quite frankly. UM.
Speaker 1: And so I think that by not having those conversations,
Speaker 1: you're actually like, I mean, your kids are still going
Speaker 1: to develop ideas, you know, UM, they still have questions,
Speaker 1: and I don't think that it I don't think it
Speaker 1: really helps anything to just sort of ignore it. UM.
Speaker 1: And also I should add, you know, just I think
Speaker 1: a lot about like how kids aren't about sex. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, they talked to their friends. And so the
Speaker 1: question is sort of like, do you want to be
Speaker 1: the one to talk to your children about racism and
Speaker 1: that legacy or do you want to leave it up
Speaker 1: to here with the information information that they're getting. Um.
Speaker 1: But let's first let's talk about UM, this study that.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the book that you devoted two years
Speaker 1: in an urban and suburban mind western community, UM to
Speaker 1: explore the process of racial learning and how it unfolds
Speaker 1: an upper middle class white families. UM. And you used
Speaker 1: this I've never said this word good luck Katie Ethnography. Yep, yeah,
Speaker 1: what is that? Yeah? So you know you could give
Speaker 1: white people a survey and say hey, what are your
Speaker 1: racial attitudes? But what we know is that they probably
Speaker 1: won't be honest, and so that research methodology is not
Speaker 1: really the best for trying to understand how it is
Speaker 1: that people are making meaning and sort of understanding the
Speaker 1: world around them. UM. And so when it comes up
Speaker 1: trying to make sense of like how kids learn about race,
Speaker 1: you know, that's all a process of meaning making. And
Speaker 1: so in order to really examine that, UM, ethnographers sort
Speaker 1: of put themselves into a community and spend a long
Speaker 1: period of time there and sort of really try to
Speaker 1: understand how the people in that community are making sense
Speaker 1: of their world. UM. And so for my study that
Speaker 1: involved I had thirty families that agreed to participate, and
Speaker 1: these were all families that had children between the ages
Speaker 1: of ten and thirteen. UM. These were families that identified
Speaker 1: as affluent and white. UM. And I can talk you know,
Speaker 1: if you I can talk more about what that means,
Speaker 1: you know, how they how I measured affluence. But basically,
Speaker 1: these were families that could make all different kinds of
Speaker 1: choices for their kids lives. UM. And so I spent
Speaker 1: time with them, like I babysat a bunch of the kids.
Speaker 1: I drove lots of people total practice practices, like really
Speaker 1: a thing. I did a lot of, um, but yeah,
Speaker 1: and then I also did like you know, um, birthday
Speaker 1: parties and just normal like everyday kinds of things with
Speaker 1: kids doing their homework all that kind of stuff. Um,
Speaker 1: and I interviewed the parents, I interviewed the kids, and
Speaker 1: so over the course of two years, I was really
Speaker 1: able to, I think, grasp a pretty good understanding of
Speaker 1: what was going on and and how this process of
Speaker 1: racial learning actually works. Um. So that's the power of
Speaker 1: an ethnic I can't even imagine. I'm imagining you taking
Speaker 1: a car load of kids to soccer practice and being like, so,
Speaker 1: let's talk about race. What do you guys think about race?
Speaker 1: Like is it like that or is it much more
Speaker 1: nuanced and like more observing, like observing what's going on
Speaker 1: at the country club or whatever it is? Like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so definitely I think the ladder. I mean, in fact,
Speaker 1: when the kids were in the car together, that's like
Speaker 1: such a great time to observe them because like here
Speaker 1: in the backseat, like having their a whole little conversation,
Speaker 1: and um, there were things also when you're in a car,
Speaker 1: you're moving through different parts of the city, for example,
Speaker 1: and so listening to what kids are saying as they're
Speaker 1: looking out the window and what they're seeing. Um. And
Speaker 1: I actually found that that a lot of you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff that came up was really organic.
Speaker 1: It just sort of came into conversation like and I
Speaker 1: think you know a lot of parents say this to
Speaker 1: me that, like like they feel stunned when their kid
Speaker 1: asked the question like where did that come from? Like,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know how to answer it. And
Speaker 1: I felt that way too, Like these moments just sort
Speaker 1: of like emerged out of nowhere, which is why I
Speaker 1: needed to spend all this time just with these kids. Um,
Speaker 1: because you know, there are a lot of other moments
Speaker 1: where race wasn't the topic, fighting or whatever. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: they wanted candy or they whatever. Um. Based on your research, Um,
Speaker 1: what what did you think is the most crucial for
Speaker 1: non black parents to be cognizant of? And what are
Speaker 1: they what should we be willing to change? Like what
Speaker 1: did were any of these Had you seen that any
Speaker 1: of the parents that you studied had race conversations with
Speaker 1: their kids or is it a similar situation to what
Speaker 1: I had growing up? So that's a really I think
Speaker 1: important question because what I found was that there were
Speaker 1: different groups of parents in the study. Um, there were
Speaker 1: different like different parents made different choices about how to
Speaker 1: set up their child social world, and subsequently their children
Speaker 1: then had different ideas about race. Um. And so I think,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the findings that I that I
Speaker 1: came to is that not all of the white children
Speaker 1: in this book I think the same way about race,
Speaker 1: even though they're very similar, you know, they all and
Speaker 1: they've been provided Yeah, exactly. Interesting. So wow, how we
Speaker 1: raise our kids and what we talk about really makes
Speaker 1: a difference, is what I mean, can help? This inspired,
Speaker 1: This inspires me. This is good. I like this. Okay,
Speaker 1: So how did they talk about it? What did they do? Um? Okay?
Speaker 1: So for the families that were approaching more of like
Speaker 1: a race conscious you know, perspective, they I mean they
Speaker 1: were and some of the families truly were. I mean
Speaker 1: these were these were people who identified openly as anti racists.
Speaker 1: They were involved in anti racist organizations in their community.
Speaker 1: This research was conducted in two thousand eleven. Sou you know, um,
Speaker 1: Trayvon Martin had been murdered, and I think that sort
Speaker 1: of you know, initiated some of this, but um, certainly
Speaker 1: I think that, um, you know, these families were very
Speaker 1: committed to their children attending the local public school that
Speaker 1: was racially integrated. They then when they were at the school,
Speaker 1: some of them at least would fight some of the
Speaker 1: internal um segregation within the school. So, like, I'm really
Speaker 1: thinking about this concept of tracking where you know, the
Speaker 1: ap classes have you know, primarily primarily white kids, and
Speaker 1: then the basic classes have primarily black kids. You know, So, um,
Speaker 1: these are parents that are really committed across the board. Um,
Speaker 1: I you know, Nonetheless, I do identify ways that they
Speaker 1: unintentionally reproduce some of the very things they're trying to challenge.
Speaker 1: For example, they would get their kids like extra tutoring,
Speaker 1: or you know, they try to get them. They'll use
Speaker 1: their social networks to get their kids into some like
Speaker 1: really prestigious coveted internship over the summer, even though they
Speaker 1: knew that you know, how I grew up, how I
Speaker 1: grew up. But what's interesting about those parents though, is
Speaker 1: that like they get it. They understand that that like
Speaker 1: race matters, that racism is a problem, you know, But
Speaker 1: even still, when it came to their own kid, they
Speaker 1: felt like I've got to give them a leg up.
Speaker 1: So yeah, what I thought was so brilliant about your
Speaker 1: study and about interviews that I have watched a view, um,
Speaker 1: is that there's this inherent problem where even people such
Speaker 1: as myself like totally privileged, was raised in a privileged way. Um,
Speaker 1: that even though I would like to think I want
Speaker 1: to make choices that are the best for my community,
Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, parents really just want
Speaker 1: to do what's best for their own kid. And so
Speaker 1: even if you claim to be an anti racist doing
Speaker 1: the work, blah blah blah, but you're still like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I'm still going to fight to get my kid
Speaker 1: with the best tutor or into the best school, or
Speaker 1: into the best soccer team or whatever the hell it is,
Speaker 1: because somewhere along the line, we've been conditioned to be
Speaker 1: very selfish and and in that like or not, I
Speaker 1: don't know how you perceive it, but that my job
Speaker 1: is to give all that I can in the best
Speaker 1: ways to my child and not to my community as
Speaker 1: a whole. Right, Yeah, it's like a problem. Like I
Speaker 1: have really learned that, I'm serious, I have. I mean, look,
Speaker 1: I think, um, hopefully a lot of people out there
Speaker 1: listening right now, especially white people, are doing a lot
Speaker 1: of self reflection and looking at how they were raised
Speaker 1: and how they talked about race with their families. And
Speaker 1: this work has come way too late in my life,
Speaker 1: for sure, I will be the first to admit that. Um,
Speaker 1: but I'm really seeing I mean I already see it
Speaker 1: happening with my friends, like we want to give what's
Speaker 1: best for our kids, Like you just want to do
Speaker 1: what's best for your kids. I would give him the
Speaker 1: shirt off my back. I would give him all my money.
Speaker 1: I would. I want to give him the best opportunities. Um.
Speaker 1: And that doesn't eat that's in complete conflict with giving
Speaker 1: him a integrated UM childhood? Really right? Am I wrong?
Speaker 1: What do you think? Yeah? I mean this is like
Speaker 1: the real core of I think my argument, um is
Speaker 1: that we yeah, we have us collectively agreed upon idea
Speaker 1: that being a good parent means giving your kid the
Speaker 1: most that you possibly can, no matter which means the
Speaker 1: most expensive for if you are affluent and white, privileged whatever. UM,
Speaker 1: it often means. There's a concept in sociology called opportunity hoarding,
Speaker 1: so it means hoarding opportunities for your for your own child.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think when parents do these things,
Speaker 1: they're not they're not mean spirited, They're not trying to
Speaker 1: hurt other people. That's the whole point. It's that it's this,
Speaker 1: it's this process where the consequences are that you reproduce
Speaker 1: these patterns of inequality, you pass on you know, your
Speaker 1: privilege to your children, and um, you know that that
Speaker 1: I think continues some of the major problems that we
Speaker 1: have in our society. Um, something that I often so
Speaker 1: I talked to a lot of parents. I've been you know,
Speaker 1: going around the country since my book came out and
Speaker 1: talking different groups, and parents often asked me like, while,
Speaker 1: what am I supposed to do, like I do want
Speaker 1: to give my kids? You know, are you saying I
Speaker 1: shouldn't give my kids piano lessons? Like? You know? And
Speaker 1: It's like, no, that's not what I'm saying. But um,
Speaker 1: you know, there's some evidence that if we look at
Speaker 1: like like rates of suicide and depression and anxiety and
Speaker 1: this whole like frenzy that a lot of of affluent
Speaker 1: white families engage with about getting their kids all, you know,
Speaker 1: getting into Harvard, this whole like, I literally think it's
Speaker 1: a frenzy. Um. You know, I think some of that
Speaker 1: actually is really bad for kids. And I think is
Speaker 1: evidence to suggests that that that going to Harvard is
Speaker 1: not necessarily going to mean that you're happy. And every
Speaker 1: single parent that had ever met has told me that
Speaker 1: they want their kids to be happy. So I think
Speaker 1: we could challenge some of these ideas about what it
Speaker 1: means to be a good parent and what kinds of
Speaker 1: gifts do we actually want to give the future generation.
Speaker 1: Do we want to give them more inequality, more racism,
Speaker 1: more problems, or do we want to empower them to
Speaker 1: you know, be part of something better. I want to
Speaker 1: do that. I would like to do that. So let's
Speaker 1: talk about in your book, you you call something which
Speaker 1: is like an action item, right of what we could do. Like,
Speaker 1: so there's this idea of bundled choices. Right if I
Speaker 1: pick this white neighborhood to live in that has this
Speaker 1: white fancy private school that has this soccer team, like whatever,
Speaker 1: Like all of a sudden, you're in this um, this
Speaker 1: predestined situation from this one choice, what are other choices
Speaker 1: I could be making? Sure? So I think, um, the
Speaker 1: choices about where to live are certainly complicated, but I
Speaker 1: think we could, you know, I think people could collectively
Speaker 1: sort of shift how they make decisions about where to
Speaker 1: live UM, or shift decisions about what school they send
Speaker 1: their kids to. UM. You know, there's a really great
Speaker 1: organization called Integrated Schools that tries to help parents UM
Speaker 1: who want to who want to send their kids to
Speaker 1: integrated schools. UM. A lot of parents talk to me
Speaker 1: and say, especially white parents, and they say like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't want my I don't want my kids to
Speaker 1: be the only white kid at the school, that kind
Speaker 1: of thing. UM. And I think we need to get
Speaker 1: past all of that, and we need to think about,
Speaker 1: UM you know, how how school integration is actually one
Speaker 1: of the best ways to combat racism UM. And there's
Speaker 1: all kinds of evidence that suggests that's true. UM. So
Speaker 1: I do think that that's one that's one action item
Speaker 1: in making these decisions. I also think that parents can
Speaker 1: be really deliberate in the kinds of spaces that they
Speaker 1: spend their time. UM. You know, I think that the
Speaker 1: friendship groups that that parents have, UM, the kinds of
Speaker 1: media that gets consumed, the kinds of there's a lot
Speaker 1: of discussion right now about books that parents are reading
Speaker 1: and kids are reading. I think that's really important. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, giving kids this critical language to ask the
Speaker 1: questions that like I didn't have the language to ask
Speaker 1: when I was growing up. Um. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: even things like like choosing the kinds of extracurricular activities. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, what kinds of what kinds of ideas about
Speaker 1: competition are you reproducing? You know that that kind of
Speaker 1: gets really broad. But I just think that in general,
Speaker 1: I've already been thinking about like Okay, I mean I
Speaker 1: think like in my neighborhood, for example, there's like a
Speaker 1: pretty good public school. I would say most of the
Speaker 1: rich kids in my neighborhood opts to go to the
Speaker 1: private school that's also down the street, and like all
Speaker 1: woo woo and progressive and all this ship. Now, Um,
Speaker 1: in learning everything I'm learning, that's not a choice. I
Speaker 1: I feel very excited about not making that choice. But
Speaker 1: also I feel like there's other things you can do,
Speaker 1: like like where can he go to soccer practice? Like
Speaker 1: if l A is so segregated geographically, like can I
Speaker 1: do a little bit more of the legwork and figure
Speaker 1: out extracurricular things? He could do that might not be
Speaker 1: in this exact neighborhood, that would help introduce him to
Speaker 1: other people, other kinds of people, like black people, like
Speaker 1: you know, like, is that a choice I should be making? Like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, it's the for the kids in my study,
Speaker 1: you know, only one of them of the of the
Speaker 1: thirties six kids in total that I that I studied,
Speaker 1: only one of them had a meaningful relationship with a
Speaker 1: black child, Only one in the whole study. Now, the
Speaker 1: thing that was so fascinating about this was that there's
Speaker 1: a lot of research about like, you know, if you
Speaker 1: put people of different groups together, you know, do they
Speaker 1: suddenly get along and like racism is over? Obviously no,
Speaker 1: But I think there's evidence that shows that when kids
Speaker 1: like have a shared goal with you know, across the
Speaker 1: different types of whatever groups that might be gender, race, um,
Speaker 1: if they if they genuinely care about each other, you
Speaker 1: know that these kinds of things can at least help.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying these are like going to like solve racism,
Speaker 1: but I do think that like in the in my book,
Speaker 1: for example, that one child that had that friend, Um,
Speaker 1: there was this rule at the school about hoodies and
Speaker 1: you you weren supposed to have your hoodie up over
Speaker 1: your head, you know, in class or whatever. But it
Speaker 1: was only the black kids that that we get in
Speaker 1: trouble for having their hoodies up. And so this was
Speaker 1: a whole thing that kids were talking about. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: they really saw this as an example of a racial
Speaker 1: injustice at their school. But the only child who who
Speaker 1: really like took a stand and who who had any
Speaker 1: like emotional response to this was this one child whose
Speaker 1: best friend was like getting racially profiled at school, you know,
Speaker 1: And so I do I did see sort of like
Speaker 1: that child was talking about race in a slightly different way,
Speaker 1: and he was he was motivated beyond just like I
Speaker 1: don't want to be racist. He motivated like my friend
Speaker 1: is being hurt and I want to do something to
Speaker 1: try to fix this if I can. Um. So again,
Speaker 1: it's just one kid, you know, I don't have a
Speaker 1: representative sample across the whole country. But but there's a
Speaker 1: personal connection because he's having personal, real experience, right And UM,
Speaker 1: just another quick example, you know, I went back and
Speaker 1: reinterviewed a third of these kids when they were in
Speaker 1: high school, so like f four or five years later,
Speaker 1: and um, there had been a black teenager who was
Speaker 1: killed by the police in one of the neighborhoods that
Speaker 1: I studied, And so I talked to the kids who
Speaker 1: are now and who were now teenagers about this, and Um,
Speaker 1: it was the kids who were going to the integrated
Speaker 1: school who had you know, that one kid that that
Speaker 1: was that I just mentioned. Um, the kids who had
Speaker 1: a more critical lens on race be in middle childhood,
Speaker 1: like when they were in middle school. Um, they were
Speaker 1: the kids that were the most um, sort of you know,
Speaker 1: committed to standing behind their black peers as they did
Speaker 1: a school walkout. You know, they wanted to be there
Speaker 1: in a supportive role. Um. They weren't trying to lead it.
Speaker 1: You know, they weren't trying to take over like a
Speaker 1: lot of times why people do. Um. They just clearly
Speaker 1: had developed a set of skills that I was frankly
Speaker 1: kind of surprised by. Um. And but I think that
Speaker 1: that's that's not just what parents what their parents told them, right.
Speaker 1: In fact, some of those kids were arguing with their
Speaker 1: parents about the incident that had happened and the murder
Speaker 1: that had happened, and had different opinions from their parents,
Speaker 1: and so you know, I guess I just think that
Speaker 1: that provides a really clear example of how it's the
Speaker 1: larger environment. You know, kids are developing their own ideas,
Speaker 1: they're not simply reproducing their the ideas of their parents.
Speaker 1: So if they're not given the opportunity to have these
Speaker 1: like more you know, broader, more inclusive friendship groups and
Speaker 1: soccer teams and whatever, then you know, that's definitely not
Speaker 1: gonna happen. Right, So, like some of that at least
Speaker 1: can be helpful. And for those who, let's say they
Speaker 1: don't have the privilege to make choices about which schools
Speaker 1: they had rolled in or you know, and those sort
Speaker 1: of things, how how can they positively like impact their
Speaker 1: social environment. Yeah, it's a good it's a good question. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So my research is really on these like privileged people
Speaker 1: who you know, who can kind of opt out whatever
Speaker 1: they want. Um. But I think that in fact, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of evidence that shows that like working class
Speaker 1: white people, despite um some stereotypes, are and some studies
Speaker 1: are shown to be more racially progressive than than the
Speaker 1: sort of like affluent educated white people. So that there's
Speaker 1: kind of a debate in the field about that. But
Speaker 1: I do think that there are still so many different
Speaker 1: kinds of decisions that parents make, like you know, the
Speaker 1: like again, like the kinds of media that that is,
Speaker 1: that are that's consumed. And I was really surprised at
Speaker 1: how often I grew up in a house my parents
Speaker 1: were kind of weird actually, and we didn't have a TV.
Speaker 1: Um and so I don't really like, you know, I
Speaker 1: watched Scandal, but I didn't really watch, Like I don't
Speaker 1: like watch I don't have the TV on all the
Speaker 1: time or anything. I'm not saying that like judgment away.
Speaker 1: It's just like the reality of no, you weren't raised
Speaker 1: with TV. I was ontomatically like, we're your parents hippies. Well,
Speaker 1: it's possible. They're in Massachusetts. My parents are in Vermont,
Speaker 1: Like I love It's okay, so so no TV, but
Speaker 1: but I don't like what I did. I did the study,
Speaker 1: Like I was really surprised being in other people's homes
Speaker 1: for such extended periods of time, like just how often
Speaker 1: they had like the radio on or the TV on
Speaker 1: just kind of in the background. Um. And I think
Speaker 1: that you know, even even things like social media, um,
Speaker 1: that are that are the kids are more controlling that
Speaker 1: that's also something that parents can can talk with their
Speaker 1: children about and try to teach them how to discern
Speaker 1: between things that are you know, factual versus not. And um,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've seen some of the recent stuff about
Speaker 1: like white white teenagers being recruited from these like white
Speaker 1: nationalist organizations via social media. So like, I think that,
Speaker 1: like the list of things that parents can do and
Speaker 1: worry about is really long. But no, it's so bad.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm just hoping my son's two and a half.
Speaker 1: I'm just hoping like we've like completely like social media
Speaker 1: doesn't exist by the time he's like fourteen. I know
Speaker 1: that's not going to be possible, But that's what I
Speaker 1: like pray for because it scares me so much. I
Speaker 1: mean in terms of I mean, it scares me in
Speaker 1: terms of everything, but in terms of just racism or
Speaker 1: or like you said, like news sensationalized stories, what's true
Speaker 1: what's not? I mean, I have a hard time discerning that.
Speaker 1: And I'm thirty seven, let alone a fourteen year old,
Speaker 1: you know, who's looking at stuff on Instagram or TikTok
Speaker 1: or whatever the hell it is. Um, let alone, what's
Speaker 1: coming in on the TV? What's coming in and all
Speaker 1: their songs, Like I listened to the cool stuff on
Speaker 1: the radio and I don't even know what the hell
Speaker 1: is happening. I mean, I feel so old it's unreal. Um,
Speaker 1: but that has all had, that has to all contr
Speaker 1: ribute to the what's coming into your kid's brain. So
Speaker 1: in this very complicated, difficult time of unrest, what is
Speaker 1: helping you to find hope these days? Or like, what
Speaker 1: hope can we offer the moms out there who are
Speaker 1: like uncertain about our kids future in a world that
Speaker 1: looks like this. I think that the real hope is
Speaker 1: that this will be a moment where white people and
Speaker 1: white parents but also people who are not parents are
Speaker 1: that white people in general will move from talking about
Speaker 1: racism to changing their actual behaviors. Um. I think that
Speaker 1: the number one thing that white parents in particularly to
Speaker 1: think about is how actions speak louder than words. So
Speaker 1: what the how they're setting up their kids lives is
Speaker 1: ultimately in many ways like just as maybe even more
Speaker 1: important than what they say about race. Like, my hope
Speaker 1: is that this is a moment where folks who are
Speaker 1: you know, newly you know, like you know, waking up
Speaker 1: you know, or becoming more aware I guess of racial
Speaker 1: inequality and racial oppression and racial violence that they will
Speaker 1: then you know, take this forward into actions and think
Speaker 1: about how even at the very micro level of the
Speaker 1: way that they're parenting and living their lives, like that's
Speaker 1: part of the problem, you know, the little larger structural
Speaker 1: problem too. Can you tell us about your latest study.
Speaker 1: I'm kind of horrified by it. Actually, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 1: I'm like horrified. Is it going to be a book?
Speaker 1: I'm like so scared when it comes out what the
Speaker 1: research you find is. Yeah, So I'm working on this,
Speaker 1: this book. Um, So basically, I in this new project,
Speaker 1: I'm really interested in how geography, like where you live
Speaker 1: and what part of the country, and also politics at
Speaker 1: the political landscape, how these are also aspects of a
Speaker 1: child social world. So in my first project, it was
Speaker 1: really sort of like neighborhoods and schools and peers. And
Speaker 1: in the second project, I'm trying to build out a
Speaker 1: little bit and think about how, you know, what does
Speaker 1: it mean to grow up in Mississippi, which is where
Speaker 1: I live, um, you know right now, versus growing up
Speaker 1: in a place like Massachusetts, where I used to live.
Speaker 1: As a child, you know, And and how do these
Speaker 1: geographic regions matter, If they matter, do they matter? That's
Speaker 1: kind of my question, um for how for how kids
Speaker 1: across racial and class lines are thinking about race? Um?
Speaker 1: And in addition, how does the Trump era, uh, particularly
Speaker 1: following the Obama era, Like, how does this this shift
Speaker 1: in political leadership, um, the explicit racism from the president,
Speaker 1: how does that, you know, shape how young people are
Speaker 1: thinking about race and racism um in America? And so
Speaker 1: I am horrified to know what you're learning. I am
Speaker 1: very scared. I'm not gonna lie. It's intense research. Like
Speaker 1: in my previous study, a lot of the white kids
Speaker 1: would say racism, I don't you know, racism doesn't matter anymore,
Speaker 1: Like we're past racism. Racism is over that used to
Speaker 1: be in the asked like Martin Luther King, you know
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Um, the kids now, the kids now,
Speaker 1: we're not saying that. They're saying, yeah, racism exists, but
Speaker 1: I don't care. They're like, yeah, Trump is racist, but
Speaker 1: I don't care. Whereas in the past kids would be
Speaker 1: like that, No, politicians aren't racist. What are you talking about.
Speaker 1: Maybe there's a couple of racists down in the South
Speaker 1: or something, you know. But um, so this this concept
Speaker 1: of racial apathy, that's what I'm really seeing an increase
Speaker 1: in UM, at least with at a small scale in
Speaker 1: my study. And there's certainly some larger and more nationally
Speaker 1: representative survey data that show um Terrone Foreman and Amanda Lewis,
Speaker 1: who are my advisors, um, but they, you know, they
Speaker 1: have some data that show that like in high school,
Speaker 1: there's you know, white a lot of white youth are
Speaker 1: expressing racial apathy, um, rather than some sort of like
Speaker 1: empathy or or concern or care. And Mama, Mama is
Speaker 1: listening out there. Are you hearing this? I have goose
Speaker 1: bumps all over my body, like Mom's out there here
Speaker 1: daring this. There are teenagers with racial apathy. That is
Speaker 1: not what we want happening. Okay, So in review, while
Speaker 1: we close up, let's just go through again, because actions
Speaker 1: speak louder than words, actions that we can take. Let's
Speaker 1: just review what we've already said. So, yeah, so I
Speaker 1: think that you know, parents who are in a position
Speaker 1: to be making choices about their children's you know, environment,
Speaker 1: whether it be there are stracurriculars their schools, where they live,
Speaker 1: the kinds of friends that they choose to have in
Speaker 1: their life. Um. You know, those kinds of choices are
Speaker 1: really are really important because they set up the world
Speaker 1: that kids then live in and are constantly interpreting ideas
Speaker 1: from um. You know, parents decisions about like how do
Speaker 1: you respond when a relative is racist at Thanksgiving? Right?
Speaker 1: Those kinds of decisions also matter too because you're modeling
Speaker 1: something to your kids when you when you challenge someone
Speaker 1: in your family on on something. That's a great point
Speaker 1: that we have not yet talked about. That is excellent
Speaker 1: because modeling is big on Katie's grip, especially for little ones,
Speaker 1: like kids are just copycats of their parents in their
Speaker 1: whole world, you know. So that's great. Um. And then
Speaker 1: I think the final thing gets at that concept of
Speaker 1: opportunity hoarding that I went that I mentioned. And if
Speaker 1: I could just tell you a really quick little story
Speaker 1: and I think is really compelling, so somebody I can
Speaker 1: talk to you forever. Um. So somebody that I know
Speaker 1: told me this person has a lot of status in
Speaker 1: their community, and um, their child was having trouble with
Speaker 1: the teacher at school. I don't know all the details.
Speaker 1: And so the principle, you know, you kept having trouble,
Speaker 1: kept having trouble, And so the principle came to my
Speaker 1: friend and said, hey, you know what, why don't we
Speaker 1: just take take your kid out of that classroom. Obviously
Speaker 1: there's a problem with that teacher. Let's just take that
Speaker 1: kid out. I don't want you to be mad, like
Speaker 1: you're an important member of our community, blah blah. And
Speaker 1: so my friend in that moment said that he thought
Speaker 1: about my book. I don't know if he might have
Speaker 1: just been like sucking up to me, but he said, like, no,
Speaker 1: if I take my kid out, then there's a whole
Speaker 1: other room of kids that still have that teacher and
Speaker 1: still have that problem, whatever that problem was. And so
Speaker 1: if I, like I could leverage my privilege in this
Speaker 1: moment to get at the root of the problem, so
Speaker 1: that all of the kids are, you know, benefiting, not
Speaker 1: just my kid. And so I think that like those
Speaker 1: kinds of decisions, like you can't deny the fact that
Speaker 1: certain parents have more power in the school, like that
Speaker 1: is I'm not saying it's how it should be, but
Speaker 1: I am saying that that's typically how it is. And
Speaker 1: so I think if you're if you find yourself in
Speaker 1: that position, it's really important to think about how you
Speaker 1: can advocate for not just your kid, but for you know,
Speaker 1: the common good and and everybody's kid, but not in
Speaker 1: a way that steps on the you know, like the
Speaker 1: sort of like marginalized as parents, you know, parents of color. Um,
Speaker 1: there's a scholar and my friend, um Lynn Posey Maddox
Speaker 1: that talks about p t A s and how like,
Speaker 1: you know, white moms like take over the p t
Speaker 1: A and push everybody else to the side. You know.
Speaker 1: So I think that like there's so I don't want
Speaker 1: to be clear that there's like a you know, I
Speaker 1: think there's some nuance there. But I think the larger
Speaker 1: point of like it's not just about your kids. Like
Speaker 1: if you want your kid to live in a more
Speaker 1: equal world, then you have to do things that benefit
Speaker 1: everybody everybody. And that's the type of kid you want
Speaker 1: to raise. I means the type of kid I want
Speaker 1: to raise. Yeah, oh gosh, I hope I can do it.
Speaker 1: Um Um. Maggie. Dr Margaret Hagerman, I am so honored
Speaker 1: and thrilled to be talking to you about this, and Um,
Speaker 1: I learned so much from your book, so Thank you
Speaker 1: so very much for coming on Katie's Crib. Well, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for having me. I really enjoyed our conversation.
Speaker 1: Good as always, thanks for hanging out with us at
Speaker 1: Katie's Crib. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast, and
Speaker 1: if you've got a question or topic you'd like us
Speaker 1: to address, please email Katie's Ib at Shonda land dot com.
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