WEBVTT - ‘Waking Up White’ w/ Debby Irving & Dr. Margaret Hagerman 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:03.280 Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Our Heart Radio 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:13.680 and Shondaland Audio. Hey everybody, I'm Katie Lows and this 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:16.400 is Katie's Crib, a podcast that gets real about the 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:19.320 ups and downs and how come nobody ever told me 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.640 of parenting. We swap stories, offer tips, and hold space 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:27.000 to ask questions and grow. Today we're talking about how 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:30.880 we as parents, particularly white parents, can help create an 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:34.640 anti racist society. I sit down with racial justice educator 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.960 and writer Debbie Irving, as well as sociologist and college 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:41.360 professor doctor Margaret Hagerman to discuss ways we can shape 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.519 our children's environment so that we're not reproducing patterns of 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.199 racial inequality. And of course, a really big part of 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:51.159 it is starting with ourselves. We've got two interviews for 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:53.320 you in this episode, so let's go ahead and get 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:57.320 to it. Here's my first guest. I want to introduce you, 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:00.560 guys to the wonderful Debbie Irving. She is a racial 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.520 justice educator. She's an author of the book called Waking 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:06.520 Up White and Finding Myself in the Story of Race, 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:12.200 which I am very admittingly so too slow to have 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:15.800 done myself. And as you are, just catching someone who 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:19.680 is doing this currently. I only got the misinformation that 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.640 I'm now learning we get in school, which you're an educator, 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.080 and I want to get into all of that. But 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.000 like you being from Boston and me being a New Yorker, 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:30.800 what I did feel growing up in school was that 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.360 slavery has nothing to do with me because I'm from 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:39.160 the North, correct, and I my people didn't do all 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:43.080 of that horrible stuff down there. That is a Southern problem, right, 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:46.920 And I've heard you had that feeling as well. And 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:50.000 it's not until recently with everything going on in this 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:52.280 country where I have had to come to terms with 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:56.280 my own racism. Um how that has been a huge 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:59.240 part of my life without me knowing, which is white 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:04.280 privilege and of itself, and really trying to learn quickly 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:06.440 so that I can be a good mom, but also 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:10.720 realizing it's going to take my whole life to to 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:15.640 truly understand unlearned what I know and relearn some good 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:18.640 stuff thanks to people like you. So tell me about 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:22.520 the Boston thing. Well, the Boston thing, so yeah, we 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:26.720 I absolutely I got this message that we were all 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:30.320 squeaky clean in the North, but those bad people in 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.760 the South, you know, they were the racists, and I 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:35.399 had no idea how much racism was happening right under 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.240 my nose, all around me. And I think it's really 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:41.680 important to make a connection to what we're talking about 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:45.680 with the squeaky cooing North and color blind, because they 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:49.400 go together. So I'm musing what I had. Yeah, well 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:52.320 you're getting with me. So I also grew up in 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:54.520 a house where we didn't talk about it. It was considered. 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:56.600 I don't know if anyone told me that talking about 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:00.679 race was rude, but uh, you know that kids pick 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:04.320 things up so quickly. All and if you read my book, 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:06.560 you know my opening question to my mother is whatever 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:10.520 happened to all the Indians? Well she got so, she behaved, 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:14.200 she was Her answer was so unlike anything she'd ever 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:16.799 said that you know, she told me that the Indians 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:18.720 had drank themselves to death. And she gave me a 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:21.160 kind of a horror story. It was so out of 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:23.800 character and so uncomfortable that that's all I needed to know. 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:28.840 Never go there again. That shushing like that is not 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.800 it's rude. It's rude. It's rude. So you know, in 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:36.080 that conversation happened in the context of it never being 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:39.440 spoken about and think about so I was born in 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:43.080 nineteen sixty. Uh, this is the right in the civil 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:49.360 rights movement, and color blind becomes a political position. You know, 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:54.080 we're going to have color blind policies, which presumes are 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:56.800 such a thing as race neutral, which now as we 0:03:56.880 --> 0:04:01.280 understand bias, there is no such things girl, right, But boy, 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:07.640 did that philosophy, that ideology leak out into the ideological 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:13.200 ether that we were all in because every every most 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:15.920 people I know, unless they had very intentional parents who 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:19.640 understood racism, and we're unpacking it and that excuse much 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:21.960 more to families of color who need to understand it 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:27.800 to survive. But I made very few white families, um, 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.600 who are out of the sixties. And that can mean 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.480 you who were raised by parents who that's right, out 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.479 of the right, that's right. What since it wasn't spoken 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.640 about in your house? What was your whiteness awakening? Like, 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:44.200 here's mine. You're looking at it, and I have to say, 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:48.640 you know, like I did work in Shonda Land for 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:52.920 a decade and it is the greatest place in the 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:57.479 world where my boss is a powerful black woman, The 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.640 lead of my show is a powerful black woman. It 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:04.520 is a place of work where it feels like, oh, 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:06.839 this is just how things are, and it's not until 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:10.240 now stepping out where I'm like, holy crap, this is 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:13.680 a nightmare. You know. Like I literally got to work 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:18.719 eighty hours a week for ten years in Utopia and 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:23.120 producing content that that was actually you know, I was 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.400 so grateful for, like you know, Grey's Anatomy and other 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.400 shows that started to portray for my children who are 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:32.760 now twenty two and five, Um, a world that was 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.080 not all white, you know, and where the people of 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.760 color were not like the custodians or or or in 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:43.680 jail or something like. We're fully embodied characters with with 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:47.520 you know, complicated loves like any human being. So that's 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.119 where I've worked for a decade. It always felt like, well, 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:55.159 things are so great here, and we're making such moves 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:59.120 and strides, you know, and now it's just I mean, look, 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.800 this horrible stuff is obviously been going on forever. Um, 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:05.000 but it wasn't my norm. It wasn't my every day 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:09.760 even around a lot of black people in Hollywood. Um. So, 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.360 so I think I have a pathetic little um look 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.520 alike to you, like a little parallel story. Tell me 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.400 so I got. I grew up in white bubble Winchester, 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:23.400 which is this affluent, you know, uh neighborhoods. Step and 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:26.120 then I went to white bubble Kenyon College in Ohio. 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:30.359 And then I come back and I immediately get a 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:35.040 job trying to raise money for underprivileged, under resourced kids 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:38.760 and inner city neighborhoods. And so for the first time 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:42.560 in my life, I find myself like going to some 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:46.359 neighborhoods and they don't look anything like mine. And and 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.760 it's so clear to me that there's a correlation between shiny, 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.760 big houses and green lawns and white people. And I 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.240 am speaking now in a black white paradigm as opposed 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:58.520 to complicating a little bit more, which I can do later. 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:02.360 And and uh going to neighborhoods with dilapidated houses and 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:07.120 schools with literally broken windows. Um, and those neighborhoods were 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.720 populated by black folks, and yet we weren't supposed to 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.040 talk about it because it was rude. Yeah, I was 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:16.240 supposed to be raising money to create after school programs 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:21.040 for these kids. And so I was on fire. I 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:23.400 was like, this is terrible. You know, nobody should have 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.760 to live in these conditions, and um, I've went out 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:28.680 to raise money, which I could do. I thought I 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:30.760 was a great fundraiser. It turns out I had really 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:35.240 good social connections, you know, more white privilege and also 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.320 white arrogance, white entitlement, like all of that was in 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.280 me and I'm sure it's still in me and plenty 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:47.960 of ways. And so that experience UM set me on 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.960 a course of starting to join diversity committees trying to learn. 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:55.080 And yet as I sat on diversity committees that that 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:57.560 elephant in the room feeling was ever there, and no 0:07:57.600 --> 0:07:59.880 one ever turned to me, which I think they would 0:07:59.880 --> 0:08:02.080 do today and say you have to examine your own 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:07.680 whiteness debby UM. So I ended up being um coddled, 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:10.320 I think by people of color who wanted access to 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:14.880 the wealth I had access to UM, and that allowed 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:17.600 me to stay in this really sickening white savior role 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:24.120 for years. So I thought I was doing it. Started 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:26.400 in the in the performing arts on the man I saw, 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:29.480 I see where you're coming from. Wow, okay. See. Then 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.160 I became an elementary school teacher, and I carried my 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:38.280 saviorism there and and you know, in retrospect, it's just 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:41.760 stunning to me that I didn't dig more deeply into 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.040 what is this elephant in the room? Feeling like, why 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.040 am I not as appreciated as I think I should 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:50.319 be would probably be a really awful way to say that. Um. 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:52.400 And it was at the age of forty eight. I'm 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:55.560 sixty now. It was amazing. I know you guys can't 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.000 see her because we're listening, but amazing. They'll be a 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:02.000 picture up on will post, okay. Um. So it wasn't 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.040 until the age of forty eight that I went back 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:06.880 to get my masters in special education and there was 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:10.640 a required first course called Racial and Cultural Identities. I 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:12.760 thought I was going there to learn about other people's 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:17.000 children so I could get better at teaching them big 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:19.680 air quotes around them, And instead it was a six 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:23.920 month deep dive into my own racial and cultural identity, which, oh, 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.400 by the way, I didn't even know I had. Yeah, 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:32.400 because you've been doing great, helpful work in black communities 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:34.520 for a very long time. You were like good, well, 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.720 so I thought, yeah, And the more I learned so 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.880 I also was a history major. The history I learned 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:45.800 in that six month graduate school course it just unraveled me. 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.480 It I started I carried a bottle of ginger role 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:51.600 with me. It made me so sick to my stomach 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:54.320 because my whole world it was that this is not 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:56.440 the country I was told. That that sort of means 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:58.560 my family is not the family I was told. And 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:01.400 I'm not the person I was old and I've been 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:04.480 out there making an ass of myself and probably creating 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:08.600 more harm than good for twenty five years. And how 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:12.960 come it took a mandatory graduate level course for this 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:17.040 to happen? And this is why I were so happy 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:20.160 to have you on Katie's Crip because even though, let's say, 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.120 you know, this is a mom podcast and a lot 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:28.120 of our moms are listening, but you can't deny that 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:33.160 the work starts with our personal self. Until we are 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:35.880 able to have that sort of realization that you've had 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.480 and where you fit into all of this and what 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:41.280 you are guilty of and we all are, and your 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:44.800 own racism, my own racism, and my own white privilege, 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:48.280 and really start to have honest conversations with yourself, with 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:52.760 your family, with your people who your care taking your 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:57.280 child with, then you can't, uh, I just I don't 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.280 think we can do a good job as parents until 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:02.760 we examine that stuff, right, I agree, And you know, 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.559 I think there's an interesting So I think you, um, 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:08.880 one of the things that you've discussed on this podcast 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.320 with your listeners postpartum depression, is that, right, A ton? Yeah? Okay. 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:17.200 So I had horrible postpartum depression and nobody so my 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:23.680 first child was born in UM and nobody was talking 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:26.600 about it. I mean, people weren't even on talking about 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:32.320 good luck. Yeah, good luck. So I totally suffered in silence, 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:35.240 which of course made it worse. And when I finally 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.840 started to, you know, eke out to people like I've 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:42.920 really been struggling with postpartum depression, UM, people would say, 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:45.760 oh my god, I did too, or my sisters had 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:48.240 a terrible time with that, or you know, I just 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:51.280 learned my mother, you know, thirty years ago. So it's 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.079 that kind of thing that once we start speaking openly 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.880 about something, we can start to understand how prevalent it is. 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.040 We can start to think together about out how to 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:05.280 work towards solutions, how to alleviate suffering and not feel 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.840 so alone and not feel like I felt like I 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:13.679 was seriously a flawed human being for having postpartum depression. 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:17.800 Absolutely well, it's so inherently like I had it too. 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:21.760 But it's like to to to you feel like you're 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:26.360 not a woman, like how how could I my my 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:28.679 my body did this or did you whatever? Like I 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:30.560 am a mother, Like that's what I'm supposed to be 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:34.280 doing in the most primal way. I'm supposed to and 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.800 I'm supposed to like it. And I don't like this 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:40.880 and I can't control my feelings at all, like I'm miserable, 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:44.040 right right, So here are the number of times you 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:48.280 said should. There's a lot of that around umledging our 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:51.400 white privilege. I should, you know, I should, or you know, 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:53.440 or I'm a good person, like I have to maintain 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:57.240 my facade. And that is the worst approach because as 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.720 long as we are super invested in being seen as 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:05.480 good people, we can't just sort of say, oh my god, 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:09.760 I've created I've participated in a in a corrupt system. 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:15.520 I have perpetuated and perpetuated it. Oh, now that explains 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:17.760 the time I had that conversation three years ago with 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:20.840 that person and I couldn't you know. It's we can't 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:23.880 let all that in until we can understand that it 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.640 is possible to be a good and beautiful and well 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:33.440 meaning white person and also have um soaked in racist 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:36.439 ideas our whole lives and acted them out in ways 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:41.840 we don't even know. Um, can you quickly just explain 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:46.199 to me white privilege, because I think of everyone I've 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:48.640 been listening to, you do such a great job to 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:53.480 explain this does not mean money people, right? Right? Which 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:55.520 was I mean? When I first heard the term white 0:13:55.559 --> 0:14:00.560 privilege years ago, I did not think it applied to me, 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.640 and I could not be I was not from a 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:05.440 rich household, you know. I was like, Oh, no, no, 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:08.240 that's not They're not talking about me. Well, I'm talking 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.400 about me and my way privilege. Can you explain that? Yeah? 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:14.880 So I think in the context of this conversation, a 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:20.000 social justice conversation, UM, the word privilege does not mean money. 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:23.320 It means lack of discrimination. So if you think of um, 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.880 discrimination as the short end of the stick, well, you 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:28.360 can't have a short end of a stick without a 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:31.040 long end. Privilege is the long end. So I have 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:36.880 sis gender privilege. Um, I have heterosexual privilege. You know 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:39.360 I didn't have to I've been able. I was able 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:41.640 to marry and be public about the person I fell 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.200 in love with That was really convenient. I didn't you 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.960 know the laws fit, the customs, the norms, public perception 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:51.360 at fit. Um, I have Christian privilege, you know, we're 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:55.800 in a Christian country. I have able bodied, temporarily able 0:14:55.800 --> 0:15:02.240 bodied privilege. Um, I do have privilege, and I have 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.560 racial privilege. Racial privilege in this country is called white privilege. 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:10.280 It is possible to have white privilege and be impoverished 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.640 or working class. And I think it's really hard for 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:19.800 those folks to understand what white privilege will look like. Um, 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:24.880 it looks like because you're white, you're walking around the 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:30.720 store holding something is a different situation than someone than 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:33.760 a black person walking around a store who might get followed, 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:36.600 or being in an elevator alone with a woman or 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:40.000 something like that. Correct, that's yeah, And we can make 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:44.760 a much longer list. It would. It looks like if 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.000 you have children and those kids go to school, Um, 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:53.280 impoverished white children are given extra attention and and teachers 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.480 bring them food and really, you know, want to say 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:58.200 this family is down on their luck, I'm really going 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:00.760 to help this kid and offer kids of color It's like, 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.480 well that family is around damn fault, you know, they 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:08.640 got themselves into this mess. Is absolutely heartbreak. Okay, the kids, 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.880 the white kids will see themselves all over the school curriculum. 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.280 They have something to aspire to. Kids of color may 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:17.640 never see themselves in the curriculum. The white kids will 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.640 see themselves and more and more likely to see themselves, 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:26.160 and administrators and teachers. Not so for kids of color. Um, God, 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.640 running so deep, I don't even know. I mean, it's just, 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.720 this is four hundred years of the system. I mean, 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:37.200 this is just it's a lot. It's a lot to unpack. 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.720 Now what I think your work is so incredible because 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:42.560 you have this amazing site and we will put a 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:47.040 link to it. UM that gives us tools um of 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:49.360 things that we can be doing when we're waking up ourselves, 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:54.240 and then tools that we can transform this anxiety and 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:58.880 in action to actual empowerment and action UM as ourselves 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.400 as individuals, and then that translate it into ourselves as parents. 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.399 If you ask me, um, so, can you talk a 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.720 little bit about your twenty one day racial Equit Habit 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:14.760 building challenge. It's so good, it's so good. So one 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.919 of the most incredible mentors you know, any white person 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.800 who does this work well is surrounded by mentors of color. 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:28.679 And one of my first and um still someone I 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.800 talked to all the time, Dr Eddie Moore Jr. He's 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:35.719 a black man who founded the White Privileged Conference one 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.440 years ago, back when everyone was telling him you can't 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.639 name it that um and you know, he just persevered 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:46.359 and persevered, has grown to this huge conference. You know 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:49.160 Robin D'Angelo who won't right for so she's she's out 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.280 of that. A lot of us have done are some 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:56.640 of our real boot camp work at that conference. So anyway, 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:59.760 Dr Moore called me one day and he said, you know, 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:01.760 because he and I have been talking about, isn't it 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:04.960 doesn't drive you crazy? After our workshops? How everyone, you know, 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:06.720 the white people always say tell me what to do 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:08.800 And we're like, well, you just had this major Like 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:10.919 can't you just sit with this brand new information we 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.600 gave you? And then we realized, wait, that's really harsh. 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:17.000 People do need something to do, so um and I 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:18.760 think he used to say to people, just go do 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:21.560 something every day, three six, five days a year. So 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:23.720 he said, you know what, It's just I just came 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:26.199 up with the idea debbie of twenty one days. I 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:28.840 think that's that's what they whoever they are, say, that's 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:30.760 what it takes to to break a habit or yea 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:36.159 hand in hand, right, And um, I loved the idea, 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:38.520 so we just he had that idea and like three 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:42.520 days later we had this thing and it is great 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.240 and it's been adopted. I mean, I think if you 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:48.840 google it, it's like, you know, and twenty million hits 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:53.159 because the entire organizations take the plan and make it 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.240 their own. So the all you have to do is 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:58.280 do one thing a day for twenty one days, and 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:01.200 we give you the things. We just did a twenty 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:04.879 one day version about protest and rebellion to saw that 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:08.000 that was amazing, and it has like it's like it's 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:10.439 like the first step will be all these links of 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:12.320 what to read, and then it will be all these 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:14.760 links of things to listen to. And what's great for 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:18.040 moms who go to your site is that each thing 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.959 tells you how long it is, so you can know, 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:26.359 my kidnaps this long. I can't fit this podcast or 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:31.120 this article or this video in, you know what I mean. Um, 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:34.240 And then and I found that to be super helpful, 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:36.320 and I love this part of the twenty one day 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:41.600 you're you become a learner more than a knower. Can 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:43.520 you talk about this. I'm a huge fan of this 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:48.400 because I think this really is key for parenting as well. 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:50.280 And you can talk about this because you have two kids. 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:52.760 What do you mean by being a learner more than 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:58.200 a knower? Well, what's it? Can sound easy enough? Oh yeah, 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:01.560 I'm gonna do a little less talking. I'm gonna actually consume, 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:03.480 I'm gonna learn when I'm sitting with people. I'm gonna 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:07.000 ask more questions. I'm gonna listen more. The thing about 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:09.760 becoming a learner more than a knower is that our 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:13.160 dominant culture in the United States, which is a white culture, 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.760 so dominant white culture, teaches us from a really early 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:19.320 age to show what you know. We get rewarded for 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:21.920 what we know. We get grades, you go on, and 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:24.720 we're competitive around it. You know, we get jobs, we 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:28.560 get promotions, we get bonuses, we get salaries, um, we 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.119 get lots and lots and lots of cookies for showing 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:33.959 how much we know. And often we get shunned by 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:37.240 asking a stupid question because it reveals what we don't know, 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:40.640 as if somehow we are all supposed to know everything. 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:44.280 And you know, one of the biggest fears I hear 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:46.199 from white people is I'm so afraid of saying the 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:47.920 wrong thing. You know, my god, what if I say 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:52.800 the wrong thing? And um, how can we how can 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:57.760 we learn if we aren't acknowledging to ourselves and even 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:02.199 those around us. I really I am so ignorant on 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:05.400 this topic. I have so much to learn. And then 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:08.960 you know, if going to a workshop, for instance, or 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:11.720 having a relationship with a with a friend or colleague 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:15.199 of color, or multiple colleagues of color, if you're white. Um, 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:18.960 often white people have a habit of just talking a lot, 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:21.600 taking up a lot of space because no one's ever 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:24.840 asked us not to. Meanwhile, people of color have been 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:28.440 told not to speak literally during enslavement. Don't speak until 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:33.240 you're spoken to, and speaking up um often gets people 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:36.040 of color and trouble if if speaking up includes his 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:40.480 her their truth. So we have this conversational and balance, 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:44.399 this taking up space and balance. So by being a 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.440 learner and not a knower, it means you just get 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:54.320 into a space of just you know, deep humility that 0:21:54.440 --> 0:22:00.000 sounds that's that's very good, And I feel almost parallel 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:02.840 else to parenthood because it's like you become a mom 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:05.199 and all of a sudden you're like supposed to be 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:07.600 the expert at being a mom, like you've never done 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:09.600 it before. I don't give a crap how many books 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:12.199 you read on motherhood. It's completely different than actually doing it. 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:14.400 I was a nanny for ten years. I suck at 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:16.720 being a mom. Some days suck. And I've had a 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:21.280 lot of hands on experience, you know. Um, but I 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:26.240 think you know in terms of this topic and racism 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:29.080 and white privilege. I mean, this is honestly, I've been 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:31.959 having a ton of conversations with my family and my 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:34.919 friends in the past three weeks, and this is this. 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:38.880 This is one of two public conversations I've ever had. 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:42.480 And so I keep saying my clothing is like soaked 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:48.080 because I'm so nervous about saying the wrong thing. Um. 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:53.000 But I also I'm just jumping in. I don't know 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:55.480 what else to do. I can't keep doing what I've 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:58.200 been doing or in the ginger real stage, That's why 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:00.800 I was saying I was carrying around injurrel all the 0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:04.280 time because I felt nauseous. Oh. I mean, when I 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:10.640 list learned the things I didn't know. I am so horrified, disgusted. 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:12.920 So now, on top of the twenty one Day Racial 0:23:12.920 --> 0:23:15.280 Equity Habit Building Challenge, you also have put on there 0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:19.320 the twenty one Day Racial Equity Challenge specifically around protests 0:23:19.320 --> 0:23:25.000 and rebellions. Do you think that there is Do you 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:30.960