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Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Our Heart Radio

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Speaker 1: and Shondaland Audio. Hey everybody, I'm Katie Lows and this

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Speaker 1: is Katie's Crib, a podcast that gets real about the

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Speaker 1: ups and downs and how come nobody ever told me

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Speaker 1: of parenting. We swap stories, offer tips, and hold space

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Speaker 1: to ask questions and grow. Today we're talking about how

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Speaker 1: we as parents, particularly white parents, can help create an

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Speaker 1: anti racist society. I sit down with racial justice educator

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Speaker 1: and writer Debbie Irving, as well as sociologist and college

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Speaker 1: professor doctor Margaret Hagerman to discuss ways we can shape

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Speaker 1: our children's environment so that we're not reproducing patterns of

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Speaker 1: racial inequality. And of course, a really big part of

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Speaker 1: it is starting with ourselves. We've got two interviews for

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Speaker 1: you in this episode, so let's go ahead and get

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Speaker 1: to it. Here's my first guest. I want to introduce you,

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Speaker 1: guys to the wonderful Debbie Irving. She is a racial

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Speaker 1: justice educator. She's an author of the book called Waking

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Speaker 1: Up White and Finding Myself in the Story of Race,

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Speaker 1: which I am very admittingly so too slow to have

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Speaker 1: done myself. And as you are, just catching someone who

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Speaker 1: is doing this currently. I only got the misinformation that

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Speaker 1: I'm now learning we get in school, which you're an educator,

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Speaker 1: and I want to get into all of that. But

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Speaker 1: like you being from Boston and me being a New Yorker,

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Speaker 1: what I did feel growing up in school was that

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Speaker 1: slavery has nothing to do with me because I'm from

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Speaker 1: the North, correct, and I my people didn't do all

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Speaker 1: of that horrible stuff down there. That is a Southern problem, right,

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Speaker 1: And I've heard you had that feeling as well. And

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Speaker 1: it's not until recently with everything going on in this

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Speaker 1: country where I have had to come to terms with

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Speaker 1: my own racism. Um how that has been a huge

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Speaker 1: part of my life without me knowing, which is white

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Speaker 1: privilege and of itself, and really trying to learn quickly

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Speaker 1: so that I can be a good mom, but also

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Speaker 1: realizing it's going to take my whole life to to

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Speaker 1: truly understand unlearned what I know and relearn some good

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Speaker 1: stuff thanks to people like you. So tell me about

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Speaker 1: the Boston thing. Well, the Boston thing, so yeah, we

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Speaker 1: I absolutely I got this message that we were all

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Speaker 1: squeaky clean in the North, but those bad people in

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Speaker 1: the South, you know, they were the racists, and I

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Speaker 1: had no idea how much racism was happening right under

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Speaker 1: my nose, all around me. And I think it's really

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Speaker 1: important to make a connection to what we're talking about

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Speaker 1: with the squeaky cooing North and color blind, because they

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Speaker 1: go together. So I'm musing what I had. Yeah, well

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Speaker 1: you're getting with me. So I also grew up in

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Speaker 1: a house where we didn't talk about it. It was considered.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone told me that talking about

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Speaker 1: race was rude, but uh, you know that kids pick

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Speaker 1: things up so quickly. All and if you read my book,

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Speaker 1: you know my opening question to my mother is whatever

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Speaker 1: happened to all the Indians? Well she got so, she behaved,

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Speaker 1: she was Her answer was so unlike anything she'd ever

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Speaker 1: said that you know, she told me that the Indians

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Speaker 1: had drank themselves to death. And she gave me a

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Speaker 1: kind of a horror story. It was so out of

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Speaker 1: character and so uncomfortable that that's all I needed to know.

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Speaker 1: Never go there again. That shushing like that is not

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Speaker 1: it's rude. It's rude. It's rude. So you know, in

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Speaker 1: that conversation happened in the context of it never being

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Speaker 1: spoken about and think about so I was born in

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty. Uh, this is the right in the civil

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Speaker 1: rights movement, and color blind becomes a political position. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're going to have color blind policies, which presumes are

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Speaker 1: such a thing as race neutral, which now as we

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Speaker 1: understand bias, there is no such things girl, right, But boy,

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Speaker 1: did that philosophy, that ideology leak out into the ideological

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Speaker 1: ether that we were all in because every every most

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Speaker 1: people I know, unless they had very intentional parents who

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Speaker 1: understood racism, and we're unpacking it and that excuse much

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Speaker 1: more to families of color who need to understand it

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Speaker 1: to survive. But I made very few white families, um,

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Speaker 1: who are out of the sixties. And that can mean

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Speaker 1: you who were raised by parents who that's right, out

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Speaker 1: of the right, that's right. What since it wasn't spoken

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Speaker 1: about in your house? What was your whiteness awakening? Like,

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Speaker 1: here's mine. You're looking at it, and I have to say,

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Speaker 1: you know, like I did work in Shonda Land for

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Speaker 1: a decade and it is the greatest place in the

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Speaker 1: world where my boss is a powerful black woman, The

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Speaker 1: lead of my show is a powerful black woman. It

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Speaker 1: is a place of work where it feels like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is just how things are, and it's not until

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Speaker 1: now stepping out where I'm like, holy crap, this is

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Speaker 1: a nightmare. You know. Like I literally got to work

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Speaker 1: eighty hours a week for ten years in Utopia and

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Speaker 1: producing content that that was actually you know, I was

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Speaker 1: so grateful for, like you know, Grey's Anatomy and other

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Speaker 1: shows that started to portray for my children who are

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Speaker 1: now twenty two and five, Um, a world that was

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Speaker 1: not all white, you know, and where the people of

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Speaker 1: color were not like the custodians or or or in

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Speaker 1: jail or something like. We're fully embodied characters with with

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Speaker 1: you know, complicated loves like any human being. So that's

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Speaker 1: where I've worked for a decade. It always felt like, well,

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Speaker 1: things are so great here, and we're making such moves

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Speaker 1: and strides, you know, and now it's just I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: this horrible stuff is obviously been going on forever. Um,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't my norm. It wasn't my every day

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Speaker 1: even around a lot of black people in Hollywood. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: so I think I have a pathetic little um look

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Speaker 1: alike to you, like a little parallel story. Tell me

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Speaker 1: so I got. I grew up in white bubble Winchester,

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Speaker 1: which is this affluent, you know, uh neighborhoods. Step and

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Speaker 1: then I went to white bubble Kenyon College in Ohio.

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Speaker 1: And then I come back and I immediately get a

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Speaker 1: job trying to raise money for underprivileged, under resourced kids

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Speaker 1: and inner city neighborhoods. And so for the first time

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Speaker 1: in my life, I find myself like going to some

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Speaker 1: neighborhoods and they don't look anything like mine. And and

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Speaker 1: it's so clear to me that there's a correlation between shiny,

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Speaker 1: big houses and green lawns and white people. And I

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Speaker 1: am speaking now in a black white paradigm as opposed

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Speaker 1: to complicating a little bit more, which I can do later.

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Speaker 1: And and uh going to neighborhoods with dilapidated houses and

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Speaker 1: schools with literally broken windows. Um, and those neighborhoods were

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Speaker 1: populated by black folks, and yet we weren't supposed to

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Speaker 1: talk about it because it was rude. Yeah, I was

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Speaker 1: supposed to be raising money to create after school programs

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Speaker 1: for these kids. And so I was on fire. I

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Speaker 1: was like, this is terrible. You know, nobody should have

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Speaker 1: to live in these conditions, and um, I've went out

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Speaker 1: to raise money, which I could do. I thought I

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Speaker 1: was a great fundraiser. It turns out I had really

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Speaker 1: good social connections, you know, more white privilege and also

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Speaker 1: white arrogance, white entitlement, like all of that was in

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Speaker 1: me and I'm sure it's still in me and plenty

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Speaker 1: of ways. And so that experience UM set me on

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Speaker 1: a course of starting to join diversity committees trying to learn.

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Speaker 1: And yet as I sat on diversity committees that that

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Speaker 1: elephant in the room feeling was ever there, and no

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Speaker 1: one ever turned to me, which I think they would

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Speaker 1: do today and say you have to examine your own

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Speaker 1: whiteness debby UM. So I ended up being um coddled,

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Speaker 1: I think by people of color who wanted access to

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Speaker 1: the wealth I had access to UM, and that allowed

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Speaker 1: me to stay in this really sickening white savior role

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Speaker 1: for years. So I thought I was doing it. Started

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Speaker 1: in the in the performing arts on the man I saw,

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Speaker 1: I see where you're coming from. Wow, okay. See. Then

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Speaker 1: I became an elementary school teacher, and I carried my

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Speaker 1: saviorism there and and you know, in retrospect, it's just

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Speaker 1: stunning to me that I didn't dig more deeply into

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Speaker 1: what is this elephant in the room? Feeling like, why

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Speaker 1: am I not as appreciated as I think I should

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Speaker 1: be would probably be a really awful way to say that. Um.

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Speaker 1: And it was at the age of forty eight. I'm

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Speaker 1: sixty now. It was amazing. I know you guys can't

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Speaker 1: see her because we're listening, but amazing. They'll be a

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Speaker 1: picture up on will post, okay. Um. So it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until the age of forty eight that I went back

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Speaker 1: to get my masters in special education and there was

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Speaker 1: a required first course called Racial and Cultural Identities. I

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Speaker 1: thought I was going there to learn about other people's

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Speaker 1: children so I could get better at teaching them big

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Speaker 1: air quotes around them, And instead it was a six

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Speaker 1: month deep dive into my own racial and cultural identity, which, oh,

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Speaker 1: by the way, I didn't even know I had. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you've been doing great, helpful work in black communities

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Speaker 1: for a very long time. You were like good, well,

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Speaker 1: so I thought, yeah, And the more I learned so

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Speaker 1: I also was a history major. The history I learned

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Speaker 1: in that six month graduate school course it just unraveled me.

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Speaker 1: It I started I carried a bottle of ginger role

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Speaker 1: with me. It made me so sick to my stomach

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Speaker 1: because my whole world it was that this is not

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Speaker 1: the country I was told. That that sort of means

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Speaker 1: my family is not the family I was told. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not the person I was old and I've been

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Speaker 1: out there making an ass of myself and probably creating

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Speaker 1: more harm than good for twenty five years. And how

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Speaker 1: come it took a mandatory graduate level course for this

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Speaker 1: to happen? And this is why I were so happy

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Speaker 1: to have you on Katie's Crip because even though, let's say,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is a mom podcast and a lot

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Speaker 1: of our moms are listening, but you can't deny that

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Speaker 1: the work starts with our personal self. Until we are

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Speaker 1: able to have that sort of realization that you've had

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Speaker 1: and where you fit into all of this and what

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Speaker 1: you are guilty of and we all are, and your

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Speaker 1: own racism, my own racism, and my own white privilege,

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Speaker 1: and really start to have honest conversations with yourself, with

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Speaker 1: your family, with your people who your care taking your

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Speaker 1: child with, then you can't, uh, I just I don't

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Speaker 1: think we can do a good job as parents until

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Speaker 1: we examine that stuff, right, I agree, And you know,

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Speaker 1: I think there's an interesting So I think you, um,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that you've discussed on this podcast

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Speaker 1: with your listeners postpartum depression, is that, right, A ton? Yeah? Okay.

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Speaker 1: So I had horrible postpartum depression and nobody so my

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Speaker 1: first child was born in UM and nobody was talking

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Speaker 1: about it. I mean, people weren't even on talking about

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Speaker 1: good luck. Yeah, good luck. So I totally suffered in silence,

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Speaker 1: which of course made it worse. And when I finally

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Speaker 1: started to, you know, eke out to people like I've

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Speaker 1: really been struggling with postpartum depression, UM, people would say,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, I did too, or my sisters had

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Speaker 1: a terrible time with that, or you know, I just

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Speaker 1: learned my mother, you know, thirty years ago. So it's

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing that once we start speaking openly

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Speaker 1: about something, we can start to understand how prevalent it is.

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Speaker 1: We can start to think together about out how to

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Speaker 1: work towards solutions, how to alleviate suffering and not feel

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Speaker 1: so alone and not feel like I felt like I

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Speaker 1: was seriously a flawed human being for having postpartum depression.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely well, it's so inherently like I had it too.

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Speaker 1: But it's like to to to you feel like you're

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Speaker 1: not a woman, like how how could I my my

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Speaker 1: my body did this or did you whatever? Like I

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Speaker 1: am a mother, Like that's what I'm supposed to be

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Speaker 1: doing in the most primal way. I'm supposed to and

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Speaker 1: I'm supposed to like it. And I don't like this

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Speaker 1: and I can't control my feelings at all, like I'm miserable,

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Speaker 1: right right, So here are the number of times you

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Speaker 1: said should. There's a lot of that around umledging our

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Speaker 1: white privilege. I should, you know, I should, or you know,

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Speaker 1: or I'm a good person, like I have to maintain

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Speaker 1: my facade. And that is the worst approach because as

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Speaker 1: long as we are super invested in being seen as

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Speaker 1: good people, we can't just sort of say, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I've created I've participated in a in a corrupt system.

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Speaker 1: I have perpetuated and perpetuated it. Oh, now that explains

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Speaker 1: the time I had that conversation three years ago with

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Speaker 1: that person and I couldn't you know. It's we can't

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Speaker 1: let all that in until we can understand that it

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Speaker 1: is possible to be a good and beautiful and well

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Speaker 1: meaning white person and also have um soaked in racist

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Speaker 1: ideas our whole lives and acted them out in ways

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Speaker 1: we don't even know. Um, can you quickly just explain

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Speaker 1: to me white privilege, because I think of everyone I've

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Speaker 1: been listening to, you do such a great job to

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Speaker 1: explain this does not mean money people, right? Right? Which

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Speaker 1: was I mean? When I first heard the term white

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Speaker 1: privilege years ago, I did not think it applied to me,

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Speaker 1: and I could not be I was not from a

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Speaker 1: rich household, you know. I was like, Oh, no, no,

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Speaker 1: that's not They're not talking about me. Well, I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about me and my way privilege. Can you explain that? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So I think in the context of this conversation, a

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Speaker 1: social justice conversation, UM, the word privilege does not mean money.

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Speaker 1: It means lack of discrimination. So if you think of um,

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Speaker 1: discrimination as the short end of the stick, well, you

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Speaker 1: can't have a short end of a stick without a

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Speaker 1: long end. Privilege is the long end. So I have

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Speaker 1: sis gender privilege. Um, I have heterosexual privilege. You know

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Speaker 1: I didn't have to I've been able. I was able

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Speaker 1: to marry and be public about the person I fell

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Speaker 1: in love with That was really convenient. I didn't you

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Speaker 1: know the laws fit, the customs, the norms, public perception

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Speaker 1: at fit. Um, I have Christian privilege, you know, we're

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Speaker 1: in a Christian country. I have able bodied, temporarily able

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Speaker 1: bodied privilege. Um, I do have privilege, and I have

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Speaker 1: racial privilege. Racial privilege in this country is called white privilege.

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Speaker 1: It is possible to have white privilege and be impoverished

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Speaker 1: or working class. And I think it's really hard for

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Speaker 1: those folks to understand what white privilege will look like. Um,

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Speaker 1: it looks like because you're white, you're walking around the

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Speaker 1: store holding something is a different situation than someone than

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Speaker 1: a black person walking around a store who might get followed,

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Speaker 1: or being in an elevator alone with a woman or

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Speaker 1: something like that. Correct, that's yeah, And we can make

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Speaker 1: a much longer list. It would. It looks like if

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Speaker 1: you have children and those kids go to school, Um,

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Speaker 1: impoverished white children are given extra attention and and teachers

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Speaker 1: bring them food and really, you know, want to say

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Speaker 1: this family is down on their luck, I'm really going

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Speaker 1: to help this kid and offer kids of color It's like,

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Speaker 1: well that family is around damn fault, you know, they

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Speaker 1: got themselves into this mess. Is absolutely heartbreak. Okay, the kids,

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Speaker 1: the white kids will see themselves all over the school curriculum.

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Speaker 1: They have something to aspire to. Kids of color may

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Speaker 1: never see themselves in the curriculum. The white kids will

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Speaker 1: see themselves and more and more likely to see themselves,

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Speaker 1: and administrators and teachers. Not so for kids of color. Um, God,

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Speaker 1: running so deep, I don't even know. I mean, it's just,

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Speaker 1: this is four hundred years of the system. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is just it's a lot. It's a lot to unpack.

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Speaker 1: Now what I think your work is so incredible because

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Speaker 1: you have this amazing site and we will put a

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Speaker 1: link to it. UM that gives us tools um of

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Speaker 1: things that we can be doing when we're waking up ourselves,

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Speaker 1: and then tools that we can transform this anxiety and

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Speaker 1: in action to actual empowerment and action UM as ourselves

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Speaker 1: as individuals, and then that translate it into ourselves as parents.

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Speaker 1: If you ask me, um, so, can you talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about your twenty one day racial Equit Habit

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Speaker 1: building challenge. It's so good, it's so good. So one

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Speaker 1: of the most incredible mentors you know, any white person

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Speaker 1: who does this work well is surrounded by mentors of color.

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Speaker 1: And one of my first and um still someone I

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Speaker 1: talked to all the time, Dr Eddie Moore Jr. He's

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Speaker 1: a black man who founded the White Privileged Conference one

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Speaker 1: years ago, back when everyone was telling him you can't

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Speaker 1: name it that um and you know, he just persevered

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Speaker 1: and persevered, has grown to this huge conference. You know

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Speaker 1: Robin D'Angelo who won't right for so she's she's out

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Speaker 1: of that. A lot of us have done are some

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Speaker 1: of our real boot camp work at that conference. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: Dr Moore called me one day and he said, you know,

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Speaker 1: because he and I have been talking about, isn't it

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Speaker 1: doesn't drive you crazy? After our workshops? How everyone, you know,

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Speaker 1: the white people always say tell me what to do

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Speaker 1: And we're like, well, you just had this major Like

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Speaker 1: can't you just sit with this brand new information we

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Speaker 1: gave you? And then we realized, wait, that's really harsh.

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Speaker 1: People do need something to do, so um and I

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Speaker 1: think he used to say to people, just go do

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Speaker 1: something every day, three six, five days a year. So

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Speaker 1: he said, you know what, It's just I just came

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Speaker 1: up with the idea debbie of twenty one days. I

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Speaker 1: think that's that's what they whoever they are, say, that's

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Speaker 1: what it takes to to break a habit or yea

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Speaker 1: hand in hand, right, And um, I loved the idea,

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Speaker 1: so we just he had that idea and like three

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Speaker 1: days later we had this thing and it is great

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Speaker 1: and it's been adopted. I mean, I think if you

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Speaker 1: google it, it's like, you know, and twenty million hits

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Speaker 1: because the entire organizations take the plan and make it

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Speaker 1: their own. So the all you have to do is

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Speaker 1: do one thing a day for twenty one days, and

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Speaker 1: we give you the things. We just did a twenty

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Speaker 1: one day version about protest and rebellion to saw that

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Speaker 1: that was amazing, and it has like it's like it's

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Speaker 1: like the first step will be all these links of

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Speaker 1: what to read, and then it will be all these

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Speaker 1: links of things to listen to. And what's great for

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Speaker 1: moms who go to your site is that each thing

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Speaker 1: tells you how long it is, so you can know,

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Speaker 1: my kidnaps this long. I can't fit this podcast or

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Speaker 1: this article or this video in, you know what I mean. Um,

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Speaker 1: And then and I found that to be super helpful,

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Speaker 1: and I love this part of the twenty one day

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Speaker 1: you're you become a learner more than a knower. Can

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Speaker 1: you talk about this. I'm a huge fan of this

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Speaker 1: because I think this really is key for parenting as well.

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Speaker 1: And you can talk about this because you have two kids.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean by being a learner more than

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Speaker 1: a knower? Well, what's it? Can sound easy enough? Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do a little less talking. I'm gonna actually consume,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna learn when I'm sitting with people. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: ask more questions. I'm gonna listen more. The thing about

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Speaker 1: becoming a learner more than a knower is that our

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Speaker 1: dominant culture in the United States, which is a white culture,

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Speaker 1: so dominant white culture, teaches us from a really early

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Speaker 1: age to show what you know. We get rewarded for

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Speaker 1: what we know. We get grades, you go on, and

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Speaker 1: we're competitive around it. You know, we get jobs, we

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Speaker 1: get promotions, we get bonuses, we get salaries, um, we

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Speaker 1: get lots and lots and lots of cookies for showing

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Speaker 1: how much we know. And often we get shunned by

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Speaker 1: asking a stupid question because it reveals what we don't know,

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Speaker 1: as if somehow we are all supposed to know everything.

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Speaker 1: And you know, one of the biggest fears I hear

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Speaker 1: from white people is I'm so afraid of saying the

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Speaker 1: wrong thing. You know, my god, what if I say

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Speaker 1: the wrong thing? And um, how can we how can

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Speaker 1: we learn if we aren't acknowledging to ourselves and even

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Speaker 1: those around us. I really I am so ignorant on

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Speaker 1: this topic. I have so much to learn. And then

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Speaker 1: you know, if going to a workshop, for instance, or

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Speaker 1: having a relationship with a with a friend or colleague

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Speaker 1: of color, or multiple colleagues of color, if you're white. Um,

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Speaker 1: often white people have a habit of just talking a lot,

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Speaker 1: taking up a lot of space because no one's ever

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Speaker 1: asked us not to. Meanwhile, people of color have been

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Speaker 1: told not to speak literally during enslavement. Don't speak until

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Speaker 1: you're spoken to, and speaking up um often gets people

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Speaker 1: of color and trouble if if speaking up includes his

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Speaker 1: her their truth. So we have this conversational and balance,

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Speaker 1: this taking up space and balance. So by being a

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Speaker 1: learner and not a knower, it means you just get

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Speaker 1: into a space of just you know, deep humility that

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Speaker 1: sounds that's that's very good, And I feel almost parallel

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Speaker 1: else to parenthood because it's like you become a mom

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you're like supposed to be

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Speaker 1: the expert at being a mom, like you've never done

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Speaker 1: it before. I don't give a crap how many books

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Speaker 1: you read on motherhood. It's completely different than actually doing it.

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Speaker 1: I was a nanny for ten years. I suck at

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Speaker 1: being a mom. Some days suck. And I've had a

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Speaker 1: lot of hands on experience, you know. Um, but I

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Speaker 1: think you know in terms of this topic and racism

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Speaker 1: and white privilege. I mean, this is honestly, I've been

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Speaker 1: having a ton of conversations with my family and my

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Speaker 1: friends in the past three weeks, and this is this.

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Speaker 1: This is one of two public conversations I've ever had.

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Speaker 1: And so I keep saying my clothing is like soaked

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Speaker 1: because I'm so nervous about saying the wrong thing. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I also I'm just jumping in. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what else to do. I can't keep doing what I've

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Speaker 1: been doing or in the ginger real stage, That's why

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Speaker 1: I was saying I was carrying around injurrel all the

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Speaker 1: time because I felt nauseous. Oh. I mean, when I

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Speaker 1: list learned the things I didn't know. I am so horrified, disgusted.

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Speaker 1: So now, on top of the twenty one Day Racial

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Speaker 1: Equity Habit Building Challenge, you also have put on there

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Speaker 1: the twenty one Day Racial Equity Challenge specifically around protests

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Speaker 1: and rebellions. Do you think that there is Do you

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Speaker 1: encourage parents to be bringing their kids to things like this, like, um,

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Speaker 1: do you think it's an important Um? I mean I

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Speaker 1: think it's a mix of things. I also think there's

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Speaker 1: a pandemic going around, and I think it's really um

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Speaker 1: what parents feel comfortable with in terms of safety and

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Speaker 1: health and things like that. And it's a personal thing,

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Speaker 1: but um, that's really a textual Yeah, it's true because

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Speaker 1: it's it does have to do. We do have a pandemic.

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Speaker 1: So who in the family has what kind of uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, existing conditions? Yeah, and what what town are

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Speaker 1: we talking about? Um? I mean my brother is in

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Speaker 1: Mill Valley, California, and he and his family have been,

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Speaker 1: you know, going out and being a part of the protests. Um.

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Speaker 1: If you live in a different part of the world

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Speaker 1: and there's more potential for violence, um than you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe you don't bring the kids. I think one of

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Speaker 1: the most important things is UM, Can your family hold

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Speaker 1: the conversation, can you prepare your kids for it, Can

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Speaker 1: you help your kids make meaning of what's going on

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Speaker 1: at the event, and can you help them process it afterwards?

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Speaker 1: And it doesn't mean you have to be an expert

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Speaker 1: to be in that position. It means you need to

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Speaker 1: have that humility. So I think it's perfectly fine for

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Speaker 1: a parent to say, you know, um, my mom and

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Speaker 1: dad never took me to anything like this. Uh. Maybe

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Speaker 1: that's because there weren't protests in that their particular childhood,

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Speaker 1: or you know, because they really wanted me to protect

428
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: me from it. UM. And I think it's really important

429
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 1: if we're going to be I want our family to

430
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: be engaged citizens. And I think it's important that we

431
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 1: show up. And it's not fair. You know, the way

432
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 1: the world is right now, it's not fair. And by

433
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 1: showing up, I want to be a part of UM

434
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: creating a more fair world. Do you remember the first

435
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,719
Speaker 1: time your kids like noticed a black person or what

436
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: you said? And you might not because you're so deep

437
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,640
Speaker 1: in this work, it might not have even been a thing.

438
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: I don't know. Well I do, and I actually I

439
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: write about it in the book because my daughter, Emily, um,

440
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 1: was in the third grade. And so I'm in Cambridge,

441
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: Massachusetts and very diverse uh town city, and all of

442
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: the schools it's a lottery system, so all of the

443
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 1: schools are reflect the demographics of the city. So she's

444
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: in a very diverse classroom. And I was doing the

445
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 1: dishes one night and she kind of sidled up to

446
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: me and just kind of leaned against me, which was

447
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 1: very out of the ordinary. And she was dipping her

448
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 1: hands and the SuDS and just sitting there and then

449
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: standing there and she said, Mom, how come all the

450
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: white parents come to pick their cuds up at school

451
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: and all the black kids get on the bus. Oh,

452
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 1: there you have it? And what did you say? I said, Now,

453
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 1: I wasn't I hadn't started I hadn't started that graduate school,

454
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: of course, yet I was still in my superhero and

455
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: I said, Um, you know, Emily, that is such a

456
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: good question, and I don't have the answer, um, And

457
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's interesting that I answered in such

458
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: an honest, humble way, because it wasn't the energy I

459
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: brought out into the world around this work. But I

460
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: think the way I answered was a was a good

461
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 1: way to answer. It's it's absolutely fine to model for

462
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: your kids. Here's where I dropped the bet. You don't

463
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: know that you I don't know? Yeah, and to honor

464
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 1: the question. Yeah, it's a great question. What a good

465
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: question because we never want to stop the question, and

466
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: having our curiosity slapped out of us is a good

467
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: is part of the way this goes away when we're

468
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 1: supposed to be knowing, knowing, knowing, showing how much we know.

469
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: All the time we turn off. We we kind of

470
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: doll down the parts of our humanity that keep us

471
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: alive and curious. So, um, what I don't like about

472
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 1: my answer is that that I left it right there,

473
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: and shame on me for that. You know what if

474
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: I had said that is such a good question. I

475
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 1: don't know why I hadn't thought to ask them. You know,

476
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: I think we can. Let's let's figure it out together,

477
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: you know, let's go talk to some of your teachers.

478
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: So let's was the internet there certainly today you could

479
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: or the other thing you could say is you know,

480
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 1: I'm I don't know the answer, and I'm sort of embarrassed.

481
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer. I would love to meet

482
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: you right back here tomorrow night when I'm doing the dishes,

483
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: and I am going to do a little research between

484
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: now and then, so that what you're you're doing a

485
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: lot in that kind of exchange. You're honoring the question, um,

486
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: which will You're being honest, you're modeling that adults don't

487
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: know everything. You're modeling that I care enough to go

488
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 1: in search of it, and um, and then think of

489
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 1: the conversation you could have. And then you're buying yourself

490
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: some dang time to figure out right, right, that's such

491
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,719
Speaker 1: a good question. Let me think about it. Probably has

492
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: lots of applications. I mean, because I would have to

493
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 1: buy myself time. I would be like, I will come

494
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: back to you after mommy has done some real work

495
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: and research to figure out the answer to that. You know,

496
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: and in this time, in this age, you we could

497
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: probably even find a child friendly site with that, and

498
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: you could say, look at this, I found this great

499
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: organization which I would never have known about if you

500
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: hadn't asked me that question. This is really great. Um.

501
00:28:55,520 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: And you were a because what I for what you said?

502
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,959
Speaker 1: What grades you taught K one too? Oh? My people

503
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: are my people. So if learning what the kids are

504
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: learning in school is so crucial, and you're such an educator,

505
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: how do we stop this whitewashing of history? Like, what

506
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: how do we do? I mean, obviously I don't know.

507
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: I haven't started school yet. I don't know how to

508
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: fight for different textbooks or is that something we need

509
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: to be doing or is it that the school is

510
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: what the school curriculum is, and we just need to

511
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: do our jobs at home to teach them the real truth. Well,

512
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: you certainly need to do that at home pace um,

513
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: And it will vary school district by school district, But

514
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: you know, there's some there are some generalizations I can

515
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: UM feel pretty confident in talking about. Uh. There in

516
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: every town that I've encountered, in every private school I've encountered,

517
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: there is a vocal minority of the wealthiest, most powerful

518
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: parents who do not want to see this kind of change.

519
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: I did not send my child here to learn about this.

520
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: I want them to know Shakespeare and you know, Chaucer

521
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: and um and what one of them. And one of

522
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: the big questions is, um, will this moment change that?

523
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm seeing the impact of this kind of

524
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,719
Speaker 1: global awakening reach people who I've never seen before. A

525
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: lot of CEO letters are going out, So how will

526
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: that translate into schools? Will schools start to say, oh,

527
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: maybe the thing that I've been hearing about my school

528
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: trying to do that i've been resisting is worth knowing

529
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: more about. Um? Yes, so certainly. And it's not like

530
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: we need to invent a curriculum that teaches all of

531
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: this stuff exists. I mean, you know, the school really

532
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: changing the way we educate our children, UM, I think

533
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: would just be so wonderful for all the kids. It's

534
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: it's just it's changing from this rigid testing to a

535
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: very human center. I mean that's for people who understand

536
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: how to create equitable, racially equitable schools. Um at the

537
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: center of any racially equity equitable move whether it's in healthcare, transportation,

538
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: food supply, education, finance, housing, etcetera. What we're talking about

539
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: is a more humane world. It's the inhumanity of the

540
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: white supremacist culture that we're living in. Is that that's

541
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: the struggle is too. I mean, when you hear defund

542
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: the police, it's let's take some of that budget and

543
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: put it into community workers. So when when people start

544
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: to understand the issue, you will also start to hear

545
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: what the solutions are, and the solutions are always about

546
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: moving towards a more humane way of being. So and

547
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: now here's a complication. Um between here and the paradise

548
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: utopia that we may or may not ever get to,

549
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: is that our public school teachers or so I think

550
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: all school teachers in the United States K to twelve

551
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: are white, and most of those white teachers have not

552
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: done the kind of internal work um that's required and

553
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: so um, you know, imagine a white teacher being told, uh,

554
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: you know you're not you're not teaching my my son,

555
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: you're not teaching my black son, you're not teaching my

556
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: black daughter. Uh. That teacher is very likely going to

557
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 1: get so defensive, and that white teacher has the power.

558
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: So um. Often what I hear are parents of color

559
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: who go in to speak to teachers and administrators and

560
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: they get labeled the angry, unreasonable parents, and then they

561
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: lose all advocacy over their children. And so it's essential

562
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: and you can't teach what you don't know. There's a

563
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: book by that title, and you can't lead where you

564
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: won't go. That's somebody else's phrase. So we really need

565
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: our teachers to be deep lee on board with doing

566
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: an internal overhaul as well as the systemic overhaul. That's

567
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: what I feel like the moms, the white moms need

568
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: to do as well. Yes, because we could say, I mean,

569
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: you could get all the great books in the world,

570
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: and the kind of conversations that are going to come

571
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: up aren't conversations that you're necessarily ready for. Debbie, you

572
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: are a wealth of help to all of us. And

573
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: it's what's I really I think moms don't have a

574
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: lot of time. I think a lot of the moms

575
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: I've been talking to are like frantically trying to do

576
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,719
Speaker 1: this work and at the same time are having a

577
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: lot It's been very hard because a lot of their

578
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: lives have changed because of coronavirus UM and they're exhausted.

579
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: And that is white privilege. Okay, we know this that

580
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: like black moms and black families have been doing this

581
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: work because they have to since their babies came out

582
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: of the womb. We have gotten to push it off

583
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: and be too tired and we're not going to read

584
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: the book because our kids had a tough day in

585
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: a tantrum whatever the hell it is, um. But what's

586
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,919
Speaker 1: so gried about your site is that it's all very

587
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: centrally located and easily accessible for our mom's listening and like.

588
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: And it is the long haul. It's not like we

589
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: have to be the perfect experts on this in the

590
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: next two weeks. I mean, this is, this is, this is,

591
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: this is, this is a life change. You know, Um,

592
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: before we close out, what is your hope during this time?

593
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: You know? My hope? Um, of course, none of all

594
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: this white waking up matters if it doesn't translate into

595
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 1: improved material and psychological conditions for Black people, Indigenous people,

596
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:05,280
Speaker 1: Latin X people, Asian people. And so that's the real measure.

597
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: White people will never be able to say whether or

598
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: not we're doing better or worse. Only our brothers and

599
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: sisters of color can let us know that. And it

600
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: is going to be a long haul. And so with

601
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,479
Speaker 1: all of that in mind, my hope, my greatest hope

602
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:23,240
Speaker 1: for this moment is that we are on a journey together.

603
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: We are on it. We are going to learn in

604
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: the same way we learned about COVID. You know, we

605
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: just all frantically learned how to be safe around it.

606
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: We're all going to learn about how racism works and

607
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: it's not going to go away as soon as the

608
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: sports and the movies and everything comes back. Um m

609
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: m yeah. And that and and that also that people

610
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: like you and your generation raised the first generation of

611
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: non color blind kids. Mhm. I hope we all look

612
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: to that challenge and you know, just face it head

613
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: on and are brave and make real strides, because we

614
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,479
Speaker 1: definitely can't keep going the way we've been. We can't

615
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: keep going the way we've been parenting around race, no way.

616
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: And I can I can give some bright, bright news

617
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: in there, and that is that, um, the very same

618
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: skills you will use to get better and better at

619
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: having complicated, um, sometimes confusing conversations around race are the

620
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 1: same skills that you will use to have complicated, hard

621
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: conversations in your marriage and or with your partner and

622
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: with your children as they get older. You know, really

623
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: strong conflict navigation and difficult conversation skills are our skills

624
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: that transfer across all kinds of topics topics exactly. And

625
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: you also, UM, I think that we white people, particularly

626
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 1: around the topic of race. You know, Robin D'Angelo wrote

627
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 1: the book White Fragility, which is also a really great read,

628
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: and um, brilliant book, and she's really helped me see

629
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: the way that as a woman in this society, I

630
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: was supposed to be sort of demure and not necessarily

631
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: speak my mind and not rock the boat, and that

632
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: one of the results of that is that, um, I

633
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: don't necessarily know how to speak up effectively. I have

634
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 1: kind of two modes, you know, I go quiet and

635
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: seld or tie or I you know, lose my ship,

636
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,280
Speaker 1: excuse my friends. And there's and there's this whole world

637
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: in between, which is really really um calm, drama free, intelligent, honest,

638
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: authentic conversation where we think together as human beings. And

639
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: so there are a lot of skills and and emotional

640
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: capacities that we develop, I would say, reclaiming parts of

641
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: our humanity that we develop in this work that translates

642
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 1: to every single quarter of our lives. It's Debbie Irving.

643
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: You are a gem. It was a pleasure to spend

644
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: some time with you. I can't recommend to our listeners

645
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: enough to visit your website and read your book. Okay,

646
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 1: just keep going on and on. And I know me too,

647
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: this is wonderful. I'm I'm feeling hope, I'm feeling hopeful,

648
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: and I'm feeling um, I'm just feeling like a lot

649
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: of excitement around being a mom at this time. And

650
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: I hope we get to look back at this first

651
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: generation of kids having the language skills and the action

652
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 1: skills around race to make our world a better place.

653
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: You know, I'll leave it with one last thing. Um uh.

654
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: There are many cultures, including indigenous culture, where one of

655
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: the ways you lead your life is you think about

656
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: what kind of ancestor do I want to be? WHOA? WHOA?

657
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 1: What I think I hear you saying is you're feeling

658
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 1: the responsibility of that and the potential and the excitement

659
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:22,240
Speaker 1: of that. Absolutely absolutely what answer that for yourself? Listeners?

660
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: What kind of ancestor do you want to be? Thank

661
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: you so much. Next up, we've got Dr Margaret Hagerman.

662
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: You guys, I'm so happy and thrilled to bring to

663
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: you today, Dr Margaret Hagerman. I'm going to call her Maggie,

664
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 1: but she's very fancy, so she goes by Dr Margaret Hagerman.

665
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: But because I like to know her, I'll call her Maggie.

666
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: She is a sociologist. She's the author of the book

667
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: White Kids Growing up with privilege in a racially divided America.

668
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: Her reached, which explores how children and youth learned about racism,

669
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: racial inequality, and racial privilege in their everyday lives. Dr

670
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 1: Margaret Hagerman, Maggie, thank you so much for taking the time.

671
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: I'm sure you are very busy these days. Um, and

672
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful you have agreed to join us and

673
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: share your valuable insight. And I wanted to start with, um,

674
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: how how you were brought up? Like you study how

675
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,439
Speaker 1: children learn race, So would you mind sharing a little

676
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 1: bit how you how race was viewed in your home

677
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: growing up. Sure, So I grew up in a suburban

678
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: area in Massachusetts outside of Boston. Um, and it was

679
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: a predominantly white community. Um, pretty affluent, I would say.

680
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 1: And um, I remember having a lot of questions about

681
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 1: race honestly when I was when I was growing up,

682
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,879
Speaker 1: but I didn't have any of the language to talk

683
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: about it. So, like I ran track, for instance, I

684
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: remember like leaving my community to go to a different

685
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: school to run a track meet and noticing that like,

686
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: not only were the people at that school different than

687
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: me in terms of like their race, but also like

688
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: the conditions of the schools. You know, they maybe weren't

689
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: as nice, or they were falling apart or you know. UM.

690
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: And so I remember like noticing all these patterns, but

691
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: then not really feeling comfortable enough to ask anyone about them. UM.

692
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: And it really wasn't until I got to college that

693
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: I took a class and I was like, wow, I

694
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: you know, never thought about all this stuff before. And

695
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: that's really to be clear. You identify white, yes, I

696
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: identify as white. Yeah. And I should say like my

697
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: parents were very open and talking about current events and

698
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: controversial topics, and I do you know, I do feel

699
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: like they gave me some tools, like some analytical tools

700
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 1: early on. But it really truly wasn't until I was

701
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: in a space where I was challenged, UM, and some

702
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,919
Speaker 1: of the assumptions that I had about the world were

703
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: kind of turned upside down and I had to had

704
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 1: to think differently and and learned differently. I also grew

705
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,839
Speaker 1: up in a white, um affluent community. Even though it

706
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: was diverse in that there were all different colors in

707
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: my public school, everyone a lot of times stuck to themselves.

708
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 1: It was only if sports teams would mix and things

709
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: like that. UM, and I just sort of accepted it

710
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: for how that is. And I, you know, I just

711
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: I I already can see that sort of very easy

712
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 1: trap to fall in because you're raising your kid in

713
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: a certain neighborhood, it goes to a certain school, and

714
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, we're part of the same systemic

715
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: racism that has been perpetuated for hundreds of years. So

716
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: this way that I was raised color blind, now again,

717
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 1: like I think my parents are so love filled, Like

718
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 1: I love that I, you know, brought home black black husband.

719
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: Well I have a not black husband, but black boyfriends.

720
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 1: And my parents never said anything. I mean, the one

721
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 1: thing they were upset about was one of the dudes

722
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 1: I was dating was twenty years older than me. That

723
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: was upsetting. But they never brought up race. And I

724
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 1: still have not had the conversation with them. Did you

725
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,280
Speaker 1: not bring it up because you didn't have the tools?

726
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: Did you not bring it up because you thought it

727
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: was wrong? And you thought in those times, you know,

728
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 1: the two thousands, there was this whole thing about well,

729
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 1: I don't see race because we're all equal, and that's

730
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: the way to be. Tell me why that's so wrong.

731
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: I agree with you, But tell our listeners. Why that

732
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: is not the way I will be raising my son. Well,

733
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 1: I think the reality is that, you know, I'm a sociologist,

734
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: so I'm really into data and sort of what we

735
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: know from from scientific studies, and certainly, like you mentioned

736
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: your kids, like I mean, whether or not you talk

737
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: to your child. I mean, there's research that shows that

738
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: even little kids like three year olds are already noticing

739
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: these patterns. They're noticing differences between themselves and others. They're

740
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: really into sorting, and so all of these kinds of

741
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: developmental processes are underway. And because we live in a

742
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: society where race shape so much of what's around us,

743
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: like you said, where we live, um, the kinds of

744
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: friends that we might have. As you're paying attention to

745
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: this and noticing this at really early ages. So just

746
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: because you don't talk about it, I mean, that doesn't

747
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: change anything. And Um, what I found in interviewing like

748
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 1: middle school age kids, so they were like between ten

749
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: and thirteen, is that for those that were growing up

750
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: in families that really embraced this color blind approach is

751
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 1: kind of what you're talking about. They were so insecure

752
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 1: about talking about race. They had a lot of anxieties

753
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: about being called racist. UM. And they really just weren't

754
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: prepared to live in a diverse democracy quite frankly. UM.

755
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 1: And so I think that by not having those conversations,

756
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: you're actually like, I mean, your kids are still going

757
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: to develop ideas, you know, UM, they still have questions,

758
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: and I don't think that it I don't think it

759
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 1: really helps anything to just sort of ignore it. UM.

760
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: And also I should add, you know, just I think

761
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: a lot about like how kids aren't about sex. Um.

762
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: You know, they talked to their friends. And so the

763
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 1: question is sort of like, do you want to be

764
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 1: the one to talk to your children about racism and

765
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 1: that legacy or do you want to leave it up

766
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: to here with the information information that they're getting. Um.

767
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: But let's first let's talk about UM, this study that.

768
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the book that you devoted two years

769
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 1: in an urban and suburban mind western community, UM to

770
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: explore the process of racial learning and how it unfolds

771
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: an upper middle class white families. UM. And you used

772
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: this I've never said this word good luck Katie Ethnography. Yep, yeah,

773
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:37,439
Speaker 1: what is that? Yeah? So you know you could give

774
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: white people a survey and say hey, what are your

775
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 1: racial attitudes? But what we know is that they probably

776
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: won't be honest, and so that research methodology is not

777
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 1: really the best for trying to understand how it is

778
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: that people are making meaning and sort of understanding the

779
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: world around them. UM. And so when it comes up

780
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 1: trying to make sense of like how kids learn about race,

781
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: you know, that's all a process of meaning making. And

782
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 1: so in order to really examine that, UM, ethnographers sort

783
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: of put themselves into a community and spend a long

784
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 1: period of time there and sort of really try to

785
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: understand how the people in that community are making sense

786
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: of their world. UM. And so for my study that

787
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: involved I had thirty families that agreed to participate, and

788
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 1: these were all families that had children between the ages

789
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,240
Speaker 1: of ten and thirteen. UM. These were families that identified

790
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: as affluent and white. UM. And I can talk you know,

791
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 1: if you I can talk more about what that means,

792
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,720
Speaker 1: you know, how they how I measured affluence. But basically,

793
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: these were families that could make all different kinds of

794
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 1: choices for their kids lives. UM. And so I spent

795
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: time with them, like I babysat a bunch of the kids.

796
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 1: I drove lots of people total practice practices, like really

797
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: a thing. I did a lot of, um, but yeah,

798
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: and then I also did like you know, um, birthday

799
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 1: parties and just normal like everyday kinds of things with

800
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 1: kids doing their homework all that kind of stuff. Um,

801
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: and I interviewed the parents, I interviewed the kids, and

802
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: so over the course of two years, I was really

803
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: able to, I think, grasp a pretty good understanding of

804
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: what was going on and and how this process of

805
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: racial learning actually works. Um. So that's the power of

806
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: an ethnic I can't even imagine. I'm imagining you taking

807
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 1: a car load of kids to soccer practice and being like, so,

808
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 1: let's talk about race. What do you guys think about race?

809
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,439
Speaker 1: Like is it like that or is it much more

810
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 1: nuanced and like more observing, like observing what's going on

811
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: at the country club or whatever it is? Like, Yeah,

812
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 1: so definitely I think the ladder. I mean, in fact,

813
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: when the kids were in the car together, that's like

814
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 1: such a great time to observe them because like here

815
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: in the backseat, like having their a whole little conversation,

816
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: and um, there were things also when you're in a car,

817
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: you're moving through different parts of the city, for example,

818
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: and so listening to what kids are saying as they're

819
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 1: looking out the window and what they're seeing. Um. And

820
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 1: I actually found that that a lot of you know,

821
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff that came up was really organic.

822
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 1: It just sort of came into conversation like and I

823
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 1: think you know a lot of parents say this to

824
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: me that, like like they feel stunned when their kid

825
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 1: asked the question like where did that come from? Like,

826
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know how to answer it. And

827
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 1: I felt that way too, Like these moments just sort

828
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: of like emerged out of nowhere, which is why I

829
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: needed to spend all this time just with these kids. Um,

830
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: because you know, there are a lot of other moments

831
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 1: where race wasn't the topic, fighting or whatever. Yeah, yeah,

832
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:35,800
Speaker 1: they wanted candy or they whatever. Um. Based on your research, Um,

833
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: what what did you think is the most crucial for

834
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 1: non black parents to be cognizant of? And what are

835
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 1: they what should we be willing to change? Like what

836
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 1: did were any of these Had you seen that any

837
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: of the parents that you studied had race conversations with

838
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: their kids or is it a similar situation to what

839
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: I had growing up? So that's a really I think

840
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 1: important question because what I found was that there were

841
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: different groups of parents in the study. Um, there were

842
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 1: different like different parents made different choices about how to

843
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 1: set up their child social world, and subsequently their children

844
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: then had different ideas about race. Um. And so I think,

845
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:14,959
Speaker 1: you know, one of the findings that I that I

846
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,280
Speaker 1: came to is that not all of the white children

847
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 1: in this book I think the same way about race,

848
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,800
Speaker 1: even though they're very similar, you know, they all and

849
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: they've been provided Yeah, exactly. Interesting. So wow, how we

850
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 1: raise our kids and what we talk about really makes

851
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 1: a difference, is what I mean, can help? This inspired,

852
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 1: This inspires me. This is good. I like this. Okay,

853
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 1: So how did they talk about it? What did they do? Um? Okay?

854
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 1: So for the families that were approaching more of like

855
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 1: a race conscious you know, perspective, they I mean they

856
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 1: were and some of the families truly were. I mean

857
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 1: these were these were people who identified openly as anti racists.

858
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,280
Speaker 1: They were involved in anti racist organizations in their community.

859
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 1: This research was conducted in two thousand eleven. Sou you know, um,

860
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: Trayvon Martin had been murdered, and I think that sort

861
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: of you know, initiated some of this, but um, certainly

862
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: I think that, um, you know, these families were very

863
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: committed to their children attending the local public school that

864
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: was racially integrated. They then when they were at the school,

865
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: some of them at least would fight some of the

866
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 1: internal um segregation within the school. So, like, I'm really

867
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: thinking about this concept of tracking where you know, the

868
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: ap classes have you know, primarily primarily white kids, and

869
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 1: then the basic classes have primarily black kids. You know, So, um,

870
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: these are parents that are really committed across the board. Um,

871
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 1: I you know, Nonetheless, I do identify ways that they

872
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: unintentionally reproduce some of the very things they're trying to challenge.

873
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,320
Speaker 1: For example, they would get their kids like extra tutoring,

874
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: or you know, they try to get them. They'll use

875
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: their social networks to get their kids into some like

876
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 1: really prestigious coveted internship over the summer, even though they

877
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: knew that you know, how I grew up, how I

878
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: grew up. But what's interesting about those parents though, is

879
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 1: that like they get it. They understand that that like

880
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 1: race matters, that racism is a problem, you know, But

881
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: even still, when it came to their own kid, they

882
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 1: felt like I've got to give them a leg up.

883
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,879
Speaker 1: So yeah, what I thought was so brilliant about your

884
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 1: study and about interviews that I have watched a view, um,

885
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 1: is that there's this inherent problem where even people such

886
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: as myself like totally privileged, was raised in a privileged way. Um,

887
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: that even though I would like to think I want

888
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: to make choices that are the best for my community,

889
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, parents really just want

890
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: to do what's best for their own kid. And so

891
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: even if you claim to be an anti racist doing

892
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: the work, blah blah blah, but you're still like, yeah,

893
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: but I'm still going to fight to get my kid

894
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 1: with the best tutor or into the best school, or

895
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 1: into the best soccer team or whatever the hell it is,

896
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 1: because somewhere along the line, we've been conditioned to be

897
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 1: very selfish and and in that like or not, I

898
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 1: don't know how you perceive it, but that my job

899
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 1: is to give all that I can in the best

900
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: ways to my child and not to my community as

901
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 1: a whole. Right, Yeah, it's like a problem. Like I

902
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: have really learned that, I'm serious, I have. I mean, look,

903
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 1: I think, um, hopefully a lot of people out there

904
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: listening right now, especially white people, are doing a lot

905
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 1: of self reflection and looking at how they were raised

906
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 1: and how they talked about race with their families. And

907
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: this work has come way too late in my life,

908
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 1: for sure, I will be the first to admit that. Um,

909
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 1: but I'm really seeing I mean I already see it

910
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: happening with my friends, like we want to give what's

911
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 1: best for our kids, Like you just want to do

912
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: what's best for your kids. I would give him the

913
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 1: shirt off my back. I would give him all my money.

914
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 1: I would. I want to give him the best opportunities. Um.

915
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 1: And that doesn't eat that's in complete conflict with giving

916
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:25,240
Speaker 1: him a integrated UM childhood? Really right? Am I wrong?

917
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 1: What do you think? Yeah? I mean this is like

918
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 1: the real core of I think my argument, um is

919
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,760
Speaker 1: that we yeah, we have us collectively agreed upon idea

920
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: that being a good parent means giving your kid the

921
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 1: most that you possibly can, no matter which means the

922
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: most expensive for if you are affluent and white, privileged whatever. UM,

923
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:52,760
Speaker 1: it often means. There's a concept in sociology called opportunity hoarding,

924
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,800
Speaker 1: so it means hoarding opportunities for your for your own child.

925
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 1: And you know, I think when parents do these things,

926
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 1: they're not they're not mean spirited, They're not trying to

927
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:04,879
Speaker 1: hurt other people. That's the whole point. It's that it's this,

928
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 1: it's this process where the consequences are that you reproduce

929
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 1: these patterns of inequality, you pass on you know, your

930
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 1: privilege to your children, and um, you know that that

931
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: I think continues some of the major problems that we

932
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: have in our society. Um, something that I often so

933
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: I talked to a lot of parents. I've been you know,

934
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 1: going around the country since my book came out and

935
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 1: talking different groups, and parents often asked me like, while,

936
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 1: what am I supposed to do, like I do want

937
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 1: to give my kids? You know, are you saying I

938
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 1: shouldn't give my kids piano lessons? Like? You know? And

939
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: It's like, no, that's not what I'm saying. But um,

940
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 1: you know, there's some evidence that if we look at

941
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:45,439
Speaker 1: like like rates of suicide and depression and anxiety and

942
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 1: this whole like frenzy that a lot of of affluent

943
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 1: white families engage with about getting their kids all, you know,

944
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 1: getting into Harvard, this whole like, I literally think it's

945
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: a frenzy. Um. You know, I think some of that

946
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 1: actually is really bad for kids. And I think is

947
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 1: evidence to suggests that that that going to Harvard is

948
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: not necessarily going to mean that you're happy. And every

949
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: single parent that had ever met has told me that

950
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,839
Speaker 1: they want their kids to be happy. So I think

951
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 1: we could challenge some of these ideas about what it

952
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:15,279
Speaker 1: means to be a good parent and what kinds of

953
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 1: gifts do we actually want to give the future generation.

954
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: Do we want to give them more inequality, more racism,

955
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 1: more problems, or do we want to empower them to

956
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: you know, be part of something better. I want to

957
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,919
Speaker 1: do that. I would like to do that. So let's

958
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,279
Speaker 1: talk about in your book, you you call something which

959
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 1: is like an action item, right of what we could do. Like,

960
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: so there's this idea of bundled choices. Right if I

961
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 1: pick this white neighborhood to live in that has this

962
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:49,240
Speaker 1: white fancy private school that has this soccer team, like whatever,

963
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: Like all of a sudden, you're in this um, this

964
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: predestined situation from this one choice, what are other choices

965
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 1: I could be making? Sure? So I think, um, the

966
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: choices about where to live are certainly complicated, but I

967
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 1: think we could, you know, I think people could collectively

968
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: sort of shift how they make decisions about where to

969
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 1: live UM, or shift decisions about what school they send

970
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,319
Speaker 1: their kids to. UM. You know, there's a really great

971
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 1: organization called Integrated Schools that tries to help parents UM

972
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 1: who want to who want to send their kids to

973
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 1: integrated schools. UM. A lot of parents talk to me

974
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 1: and say, especially white parents, and they say like, well,

975
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 1: I don't want my I don't want my kids to

976
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 1: be the only white kid at the school, that kind

977
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:34,879
Speaker 1: of thing. UM. And I think we need to get

978
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: past all of that, and we need to think about,

979
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:40,919
Speaker 1: UM you know, how how school integration is actually one

980
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: of the best ways to combat racism UM. And there's

981
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 1: all kinds of evidence that suggests that's true. UM. So

982
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: I do think that that's one that's one action item

983
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 1: in making these decisions. I also think that parents can

984
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 1: be really deliberate in the kinds of spaces that they

985
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 1: spend their time. UM. You know, I think that the

986
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,799
Speaker 1: friendship groups that that parents have, UM, the kinds of

987
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 1: media that gets consumed, the kinds of there's a lot

988
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: of discussion right now about books that parents are reading

989
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,439
Speaker 1: and kids are reading. I think that's really important. Um,

990
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 1: you know, giving kids this critical language to ask the

991
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 1: questions that like I didn't have the language to ask

992
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 1: when I was growing up. Um. And I think, you know,

993
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 1: even things like like choosing the kinds of extracurricular activities. Um,

994
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 1: you know, what kinds of what kinds of ideas about

995
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 1: competition are you reproducing? You know that that kind of

996
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 1: gets really broad. But I just think that in general,

997
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 1: I've already been thinking about like Okay, I mean I

998
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 1: think like in my neighborhood, for example, there's like a

999
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: pretty good public school. I would say most of the

1000
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 1: rich kids in my neighborhood opts to go to the

1001
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 1: private school that's also down the street, and like all

1002
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 1: woo woo and progressive and all this ship. Now, Um,

1003
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:54,920
Speaker 1: in learning everything I'm learning, that's not a choice. I

1004
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: I feel very excited about not making that choice. But

1005
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:00,080
Speaker 1: also I feel like there's other things you can do,

1006
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 1: like like where can he go to soccer practice? Like

1007
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 1: if l A is so segregated geographically, like can I

1008
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 1: do a little bit more of the legwork and figure

1009
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 1: out extracurricular things? He could do that might not be

1010
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 1: in this exact neighborhood, that would help introduce him to

1011
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:19,440
Speaker 1: other people, other kinds of people, like black people, like

1012
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 1: you know, like, is that a choice I should be making? Like, well,

1013
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 1: you know, it's the for the kids in my study,

1014
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 1: you know, only one of them of the of the

1015
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 1: thirties six kids in total that I that I studied,

1016
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 1: only one of them had a meaningful relationship with a

1017
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,600
Speaker 1: black child, Only one in the whole study. Now, the

1018
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,600
Speaker 1: thing that was so fascinating about this was that there's

1019
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 1: a lot of research about like, you know, if you

1020
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 1: put people of different groups together, you know, do they

1021
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 1: suddenly get along and like racism is over? Obviously no,

1022
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 1: But I think there's evidence that shows that when kids

1023
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 1: like have a shared goal with you know, across the

1024
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 1: different types of whatever groups that might be gender, race, um,

1025
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 1: if they if they genuinely care about each other, you

1026
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 1: know that these kinds of things can at least help.

1027
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 1: I'm not saying these are like going to like solve racism,

1028
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 1: but I do think that like in the in my book,

1029
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: for example, that one child that had that friend, Um,

1030
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: there was this rule at the school about hoodies and

1031
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 1: you you weren supposed to have your hoodie up over

1032
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: your head, you know, in class or whatever. But it

1033
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 1: was only the black kids that that we get in

1034
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 1: trouble for having their hoodies up. And so this was

1035
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 1: a whole thing that kids were talking about. Um, you know,

1036
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 1: they really saw this as an example of a racial

1037
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 1: injustice at their school. But the only child who who

1038
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 1: really like took a stand and who who had any

1039
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 1: like emotional response to this was this one child whose

1040
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 1: best friend was like getting racially profiled at school, you know,

1041
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 1: And so I do I did see sort of like

1042
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 1: that child was talking about race in a slightly different way,

1043
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 1: and he was he was motivated beyond just like I

1044
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 1: don't want to be racist. He motivated like my friend

1045
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 1: is being hurt and I want to do something to

1046
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:05,959
Speaker 1: try to fix this if I can. Um. So again,

1047
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: it's just one kid, you know, I don't have a

1048
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 1: representative sample across the whole country. But but there's a

1049
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 1: personal connection because he's having personal, real experience, right And UM,

1050
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 1: just another quick example, you know, I went back and

1051
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 1: reinterviewed a third of these kids when they were in

1052
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: high school, so like f four or five years later,

1053
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 1: and um, there had been a black teenager who was

1054
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 1: killed by the police in one of the neighborhoods that

1055
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 1: I studied, And so I talked to the kids who

1056
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 1: are now and who were now teenagers about this, and Um,

1057
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:39,920
Speaker 1: it was the kids who were going to the integrated

1058
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 1: school who had you know, that one kid that that

1059
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 1: was that I just mentioned. Um, the kids who had

1060
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 1: a more critical lens on race be in middle childhood,

1061
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 1: like when they were in middle school. Um, they were

1062
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 1: the kids that were the most um, sort of you know,

1063
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 1: committed to standing behind their black peers as they did

1064
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 1: a school walkout. You know, they wanted to be there

1065
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 1: in a supportive role. Um. They weren't trying to lead it.

1066
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 1: You know, they weren't trying to take over like a

1067
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 1: lot of times why people do. Um. They just clearly

1068
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 1: had developed a set of skills that I was frankly

1069
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 1: kind of surprised by. Um. And but I think that

1070
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 1: that's that's not just what parents what their parents told them, right.

1071
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:20,960
Speaker 1: In fact, some of those kids were arguing with their

1072
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 1: parents about the incident that had happened and the murder

1073
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 1: that had happened, and had different opinions from their parents,

1074
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 1: and so you know, I guess I just think that

1075
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 1: that provides a really clear example of how it's the

1076
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 1: larger environment. You know, kids are developing their own ideas,

1077
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 1: they're not simply reproducing their the ideas of their parents.

1078
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 1: So if they're not given the opportunity to have these

1079
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 1: like more you know, broader, more inclusive friendship groups and

1080
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 1: soccer teams and whatever, then you know, that's definitely not

1081
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 1: gonna happen. Right, So, like some of that at least

1082
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 1: can be helpful. And for those who, let's say they

1083
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 1: don't have the privilege to make choices about which schools

1084
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 1: they had rolled in or you know, and those sort

1085
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 1: of things, how how can they positively like impact their

1086
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 1: social environment. Yeah, it's a good it's a good question. Yeah.

1087
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 1: So my research is really on these like privileged people

1088
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:16,360
Speaker 1: who you know, who can kind of opt out whatever

1089
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 1: they want. Um. But I think that in fact, there's

1090
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 1: a lot of evidence that shows that like working class

1091
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 1: white people, despite um some stereotypes, are and some studies

1092
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 1: are shown to be more racially progressive than than the

1093
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:31,320
Speaker 1: sort of like affluent educated white people. So that there's

1094
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 1: kind of a debate in the field about that. But

1095
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:35,920
Speaker 1: I do think that there are still so many different

1096
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 1: kinds of decisions that parents make, like you know, the

1097
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 1: like again, like the kinds of media that that is,

1098
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 1: that are that's consumed. And I was really surprised at

1099
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 1: how often I grew up in a house my parents

1100
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 1: were kind of weird actually, and we didn't have a TV.

1101
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 1: Um and so I don't really like, you know, I

1102
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 1: watched Scandal, but I didn't really watch, Like I don't

1103
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 1: like watch I don't have the TV on all the

1104
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: time or anything. I'm not saying that like judgment away.

1105
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:03,439
Speaker 1: It's just like the reality of no, you weren't raised

1106
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 1: with TV. I was ontomatically like, we're your parents hippies. Well,

1107
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 1: it's possible. They're in Massachusetts. My parents are in Vermont,

1108
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 1: Like I love It's okay, so so no TV, but

1109
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:18,000
Speaker 1: but I don't like what I did. I did the study,

1110
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:21,080
Speaker 1: Like I was really surprised being in other people's homes

1111
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 1: for such extended periods of time, like just how often

1112
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 1: they had like the radio on or the TV on

1113
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 1: just kind of in the background. Um. And I think

1114
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:32,919
Speaker 1: that you know, even even things like social media, um,

1115
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 1: that are that are the kids are more controlling that

1116
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:38,240
Speaker 1: that's also something that parents can can talk with their

1117
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:40,880
Speaker 1: children about and try to teach them how to discern

1118
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 1: between things that are you know, factual versus not. And um,

1119
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've seen some of the recent stuff about

1120
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 1: like white white teenagers being recruited from these like white

1121
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 1: nationalist organizations via social media. So like, I think that,

1122
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 1: like the list of things that parents can do and

1123
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 1: worry about is really long. But no, it's so bad.

1124
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm just hoping my son's two and a half.

1125
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 1: I'm just hoping like we've like completely like social media

1126
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:14,120
Speaker 1: doesn't exist by the time he's like fourteen. I know

1127
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 1: that's not going to be possible, But that's what I

1128
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,760
Speaker 1: like pray for because it scares me so much. I

1129
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 1: mean in terms of I mean, it scares me in

1130
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 1: terms of everything, but in terms of just racism or

1131
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 1: or like you said, like news sensationalized stories, what's true

1132
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 1: what's not? I mean, I have a hard time discerning that.

1133
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 1: And I'm thirty seven, let alone a fourteen year old,

1134
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 1: you know, who's looking at stuff on Instagram or TikTok

1135
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:43,680
Speaker 1: or whatever the hell it is. Um, let alone, what's

1136
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:45,560
Speaker 1: coming in on the TV? What's coming in and all

1137
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 1: their songs, Like I listened to the cool stuff on

1138
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 1: the radio and I don't even know what the hell

1139
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 1: is happening. I mean, I feel so old it's unreal. Um,

1140
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:59,920
Speaker 1: but that has all had, that has to all contr

1141
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:05,720
Speaker 1: ribute to the what's coming into your kid's brain. So

1142
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 1: in this very complicated, difficult time of unrest, what is

1143
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 1: helping you to find hope these days? Or like, what

1144
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,520
Speaker 1: hope can we offer the moms out there who are

1145
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:23,560
Speaker 1: like uncertain about our kids future in a world that

1146
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 1: looks like this. I think that the real hope is

1147
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:31,920
Speaker 1: that this will be a moment where white people and

1148
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:35,160
Speaker 1: white parents but also people who are not parents are

1149
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 1: that white people in general will move from talking about

1150
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 1: racism to changing their actual behaviors. Um. I think that

1151
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 1: the number one thing that white parents in particularly to

1152
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 1: think about is how actions speak louder than words. So

1153
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:52,960
Speaker 1: what the how they're setting up their kids lives is

1154
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 1: ultimately in many ways like just as maybe even more

1155
01:05:56,840 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 1: important than what they say about race. Like, my hope

1156
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 1: is that this is a moment where folks who are

1157
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 1: you know, newly you know, like you know, waking up

1158
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:08,919
Speaker 1: you know, or becoming more aware I guess of racial

1159
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:12,680
Speaker 1: inequality and racial oppression and racial violence that they will

1160
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:15,760
Speaker 1: then you know, take this forward into actions and think

1161
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 1: about how even at the very micro level of the

1162
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 1: way that they're parenting and living their lives, like that's

1163
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 1: part of the problem, you know, the little larger structural

1164
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:28,400
Speaker 1: problem too. Can you tell us about your latest study.

1165
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:31,200
Speaker 1: I'm kind of horrified by it. Actually, I'm not gonna lie.

1166
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:33,439
Speaker 1: I'm like horrified. Is it going to be a book?

1167
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 1: I'm like so scared when it comes out what the

1168
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:39,400
Speaker 1: research you find is. Yeah, So I'm working on this,

1169
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:44,080
Speaker 1: this book. Um, So basically, I in this new project,

1170
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:47,880
Speaker 1: I'm really interested in how geography, like where you live

1171
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:51,160
Speaker 1: and what part of the country, and also politics at

1172
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:54,440
Speaker 1: the political landscape, how these are also aspects of a

1173
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 1: child social world. So in my first project, it was

1174
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:00,080
Speaker 1: really sort of like neighborhoods and schools and peers. And

1175
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:02,080
Speaker 1: in the second project, I'm trying to build out a

1176
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 1: little bit and think about how, you know, what does

1177
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 1: it mean to grow up in Mississippi, which is where

1178
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 1: I live, um, you know right now, versus growing up

1179
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 1: in a place like Massachusetts, where I used to live.

1180
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 1: As a child, you know, And and how do these

1181
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,960
Speaker 1: geographic regions matter, If they matter, do they matter? That's

1182
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 1: kind of my question, um for how for how kids

1183
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:24,480
Speaker 1: across racial and class lines are thinking about race? Um?

1184
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 1: And in addition, how does the Trump era, uh, particularly

1185
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 1: following the Obama era, Like, how does this this shift

1186
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 1: in political leadership, um, the explicit racism from the president,

1187
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:40,680
Speaker 1: how does that, you know, shape how young people are

1188
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:43,640
Speaker 1: thinking about race and racism um in America? And so

1189
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:47,040
Speaker 1: I am horrified to know what you're learning. I am

1190
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 1: very scared. I'm not gonna lie. It's intense research. Like

1191
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:52,520
Speaker 1: in my previous study, a lot of the white kids

1192
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:56,520
Speaker 1: would say racism, I don't you know, racism doesn't matter anymore,

1193
01:07:56,680 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 1: Like we're past racism. Racism is over that used to

1194
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:01,760
Speaker 1: be in the asked like Martin Luther King, you know

1195
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Um, the kids now, the kids now,

1196
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:09,440
Speaker 1: we're not saying that. They're saying, yeah, racism exists, but

1197
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 1: I don't care. They're like, yeah, Trump is racist, but

1198
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 1: I don't care. Whereas in the past kids would be

1199
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:18,559
Speaker 1: like that, No, politicians aren't racist. What are you talking about.

1200
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 1: Maybe there's a couple of racists down in the South

1201
01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:23,839
Speaker 1: or something, you know. But um, so this this concept

1202
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:26,879
Speaker 1: of racial apathy, that's what I'm really seeing an increase

1203
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 1: in UM, at least with at a small scale in

1204
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 1: my study. And there's certainly some larger and more nationally

1205
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:37,759
Speaker 1: representative survey data that show um Terrone Foreman and Amanda Lewis,

1206
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 1: who are my advisors, um, but they, you know, they

1207
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:42,439
Speaker 1: have some data that show that like in high school,

1208
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:44,920
Speaker 1: there's you know, white a lot of white youth are

1209
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:49,640
Speaker 1: expressing racial apathy, um, rather than some sort of like

1210
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:53,720
Speaker 1: empathy or or concern or care. And Mama, Mama is

1211
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:56,559
Speaker 1: listening out there. Are you hearing this? I have goose

1212
01:08:56,600 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 1: bumps all over my body, like Mom's out there here

1213
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 1: daring this. There are teenagers with racial apathy. That is

1214
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:10,240
Speaker 1: not what we want happening. Okay, So in review, while

1215
01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:14,599
Speaker 1: we close up, let's just go through again, because actions

1216
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:18,800
Speaker 1: speak louder than words, actions that we can take. Let's

1217
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:24,360
Speaker 1: just review what we've already said. So, yeah, so I

1218
01:09:24,400 --> 01:09:26,919
Speaker 1: think that you know, parents who are in a position

1219
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:31,160
Speaker 1: to be making choices about their children's you know, environment,

1220
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:34,880
Speaker 1: whether it be there are stracurriculars their schools, where they live,

1221
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 1: the kinds of friends that they choose to have in

1222
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 1: their life. Um. You know, those kinds of choices are

1223
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:44,040
Speaker 1: really are really important because they set up the world

1224
01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:47,360
Speaker 1: that kids then live in and are constantly interpreting ideas

1225
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:51,680
Speaker 1: from um. You know, parents decisions about like how do

1226
01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:55,559
Speaker 1: you respond when a relative is racist at Thanksgiving? Right?

1227
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:58,680
Speaker 1: Those kinds of decisions also matter too because you're modeling

1228
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 1: something to your kids when you when you challenge someone

1229
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:04,759
Speaker 1: in your family on on something. That's a great point

1230
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 1: that we have not yet talked about. That is excellent

1231
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:10,559
Speaker 1: because modeling is big on Katie's grip, especially for little ones,

1232
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 1: like kids are just copycats of their parents in their

1233
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:18,720
Speaker 1: whole world, you know. So that's great. Um. And then

1234
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:21,080
Speaker 1: I think the final thing gets at that concept of

1235
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:23,680
Speaker 1: opportunity hoarding that I went that I mentioned. And if

1236
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:25,360
Speaker 1: I could just tell you a really quick little story

1237
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,200
Speaker 1: and I think is really compelling, so somebody I can

1238
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:34,320
Speaker 1: talk to you forever. Um. So somebody that I know

1239
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:36,720
Speaker 1: told me this person has a lot of status in

1240
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:40,360
Speaker 1: their community, and um, their child was having trouble with

1241
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 1: the teacher at school. I don't know all the details.

1242
01:10:42,439 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 1: And so the principle, you know, you kept having trouble,

1243
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:48,439
Speaker 1: kept having trouble, And so the principle came to my

1244
01:10:48,520 --> 01:10:50,840
Speaker 1: friend and said, hey, you know what, why don't we

1245
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:53,200
Speaker 1: just take take your kid out of that classroom. Obviously

1246
01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:55,080
Speaker 1: there's a problem with that teacher. Let's just take that

1247
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:57,120
Speaker 1: kid out. I don't want you to be mad, like

1248
01:10:57,200 --> 01:10:59,800
Speaker 1: you're an important member of our community, blah blah. And

1249
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 1: so my friend in that moment said that he thought

1250
01:11:02,280 --> 01:11:03,519
Speaker 1: about my book. I don't know if he might have

1251
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:06,519
Speaker 1: just been like sucking up to me, but he said, like, no,

1252
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:08,920
Speaker 1: if I take my kid out, then there's a whole

1253
01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:12,439
Speaker 1: other room of kids that still have that teacher and

1254
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:15,120
Speaker 1: still have that problem, whatever that problem was. And so

1255
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:18,880
Speaker 1: if I, like I could leverage my privilege in this

1256
01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:21,360
Speaker 1: moment to get at the root of the problem, so

1257
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:24,599
Speaker 1: that all of the kids are, you know, benefiting, not

1258
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:26,960
Speaker 1: just my kid. And so I think that like those

1259
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 1: kinds of decisions, like you can't deny the fact that

1260
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:32,280
Speaker 1: certain parents have more power in the school, like that

1261
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:34,240
Speaker 1: is I'm not saying it's how it should be, but

1262
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:36,040
Speaker 1: I am saying that that's typically how it is. And

1263
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 1: so I think if you're if you find yourself in

1264
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:40,920
Speaker 1: that position, it's really important to think about how you

1265
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:43,680
Speaker 1: can advocate for not just your kid, but for you know,

1266
01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:46,840
Speaker 1: the common good and and everybody's kid, but not in

1267
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:51,439
Speaker 1: a way that steps on the you know, like the

1268
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:55,280
Speaker 1: sort of like marginalized as parents, you know, parents of color. Um,

1269
01:11:55,320 --> 01:11:58,479
Speaker 1: there's a scholar and my friend, um Lynn Posey Maddox

1270
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:00,160
Speaker 1: that talks about p t A s and how like,

1271
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: you know, white moms like take over the p t

1272
01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:04,240
Speaker 1: A and push everybody else to the side. You know.

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01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:06,000
Speaker 1: So I think that like there's so I don't want

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01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:07,760
Speaker 1: to be clear that there's like a you know, I

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01:12:07,760 --> 01:12:10,519
Speaker 1: think there's some nuance there. But I think the larger

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01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 1: point of like it's not just about your kids. Like

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01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:14,479
Speaker 1: if you want your kid to live in a more

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01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:17,559
Speaker 1: equal world, then you have to do things that benefit

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01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:21,439
Speaker 1: everybody everybody. And that's the type of kid you want

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01:12:21,439 --> 01:12:23,720
Speaker 1: to raise. I means the type of kid I want

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01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:27,040
Speaker 1: to raise. Yeah, oh gosh, I hope I can do it.

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01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:34,879
Speaker 1: Um Um. Maggie. Dr Margaret Hagerman, I am so honored

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01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:39,920
Speaker 1: and thrilled to be talking to you about this, and Um,

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01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:42,800
Speaker 1: I learned so much from your book, so Thank you

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01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:46,280
Speaker 1: so very much for coming on Katie's Crib. Well, thank

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01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:48,880
Speaker 1: you so much for having me. I really enjoyed our conversation.

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01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:53,280
Speaker 1: Good as always, thanks for hanging out with us at

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01:12:53,320 --> 01:12:56,000
Speaker 1: Katie's Crib. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast, and

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01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:57,920
Speaker 1: if you've got a question or topic you'd like us

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01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:01,559
Speaker 1: to address, please email Katie's Ib at Shonda land dot com.

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01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:04,200
Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram and Twitter at

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01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:13,280
Speaker 1: Katie's Crib until next Time. Katie's Crib is a production

1293
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:16,479
Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio and Shonda Land Audio. For more podcasts

1294
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:18,719
Speaker 1: from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,

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01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:21,840
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:25,599
Speaker 1: Look at them coming BA