1 00:00:15,236 --> 00:00:26,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin. If I could do one thing right now, I 2 00:00:26,676 --> 00:00:29,316 Speaker 1: think that on a large scale, it would be to 3 00:00:29,476 --> 00:00:37,276 Speaker 1: change how Americans think about immigrants, because for forever, not 4 00:00:37,316 --> 00:00:41,196 Speaker 1: just for the last couple of years or the last decade, 5 00:00:41,356 --> 00:00:46,116 Speaker 1: we've had this dual relationship with immigrants of both celebrating 6 00:00:46,236 --> 00:00:58,236 Speaker 1: immigrant story but also being antagonistic toward immigrants. Let's start 7 00:00:58,356 --> 00:01:03,316 Speaker 1: with a trivia question which famous American leader described immigrants 8 00:01:03,316 --> 00:01:07,076 Speaker 1: in the following way. Those who come are generally of 9 00:01:07,156 --> 00:01:12,196 Speaker 1: the most ignorant, stupid sort of their own nation. No, 10 00:01:12,636 --> 00:01:16,316 Speaker 1: it was not Donald Trump. I'm talking about another guy 11 00:01:16,396 --> 00:01:22,716 Speaker 1: who called immigrants ignorant and stupid. The answer is Benjamin Franklin, 12 00:01:23,196 --> 00:01:27,756 Speaker 1: who protested a wave of German immigration to Pennsylvania back 13 00:01:27,796 --> 00:01:32,956 Speaker 1: in seventeen fifty three. Racist and xenophobic ideas in the 14 00:01:33,036 --> 00:01:37,756 Speaker 1: United States are actually older than the nation itself, and 15 00:01:37,836 --> 00:01:49,356 Speaker 1: those ideas have always justified America's immigration policies. I'm abramax Kenedy, 16 00:01:49,436 --> 00:01:55,596 Speaker 1: and this is b anti racist. After winning the American Revolution, 17 00:01:55,956 --> 00:02:00,996 Speaker 1: Americans drafted a constitution that empowered Congress to establish rules 18 00:02:01,036 --> 00:02:05,916 Speaker 1: for naturalization, the process by which immigrants can become citizens. 19 00:02:06,916 --> 00:02:10,516 Speaker 1: The members of the First Congress act quickly and in 20 00:02:10,596 --> 00:02:15,916 Speaker 1: March of seventeen ninety past the Naturalization Act. Under this law, 21 00:02:16,276 --> 00:02:19,556 Speaker 1: only a free white person who resided in the country 22 00:02:19,556 --> 00:02:22,276 Speaker 1: for at least two years and could prove they were 23 00:02:22,316 --> 00:02:26,636 Speaker 1: a person of good character could become a citizen. In 24 00:02:26,676 --> 00:02:30,516 Speaker 1: other words, the first immigration law in the United States 25 00:02:31,156 --> 00:02:36,356 Speaker 1: declare that only free white people, specifically wealthy Western Europeans, 26 00:02:36,956 --> 00:02:41,156 Speaker 1: were welcomed to the rights and liberties of American citizenship. 27 00:02:43,756 --> 00:02:49,436 Speaker 1: Naturalization laws grew even more restrictive as the United States grew, 28 00:02:49,476 --> 00:02:56,716 Speaker 1: extending residency requirements and adding exclusionary racial quotas. Meanwhile, anti 29 00:02:56,796 --> 00:03:01,076 Speaker 1: immigration movements shifted their targets based on the economic and 30 00:03:01,116 --> 00:03:06,236 Speaker 1: political circumstances of the moment. Germans in the seventeen fifties, 31 00:03:06,676 --> 00:03:11,636 Speaker 1: Irish Catholics in the eighteen forties, Chinese in the eighteen seventies, 32 00:03:12,076 --> 00:03:16,956 Speaker 1: European Jews in the eighteen eighties, Italians in the nineteen hundreds, 33 00:03:17,596 --> 00:03:21,996 Speaker 1: Russians in the nineteen tens, Mexicans in the nineteen thirties. 34 00:03:23,676 --> 00:03:27,236 Speaker 1: After World War Two, more and more immigrants from Europe 35 00:03:27,436 --> 00:03:33,436 Speaker 1: melted into the pot of whiteness in newly opened suburbs. Meanwhile, latinas. 36 00:03:33,476 --> 00:03:38,396 Speaker 1: Black and Asian immigrants continued to endure attacks shaped by 37 00:03:38,436 --> 00:03:43,316 Speaker 1: their race, place of origin, disability status, gender, sexuality, class, 38 00:03:43,796 --> 00:03:49,956 Speaker 1: and religion. The antiimmigrant policies and ideas resembled the policies 39 00:03:49,996 --> 00:03:54,756 Speaker 1: and ideas facing internal migrants and their descendants in the US. 40 00:03:55,716 --> 00:03:59,836 Speaker 1: Between nineteen fifteen and nineteen seventy, more than six million 41 00:03:59,876 --> 00:04:04,036 Speaker 1: Black Americans fled the Jim Crow South for the North, Midwest, 42 00:04:04,156 --> 00:04:08,876 Speaker 1: and West. I am the grandchild of people who migrated 43 00:04:08,876 --> 00:04:11,796 Speaker 1: from ruled Georgia to New York City in the late 44 00:04:11,876 --> 00:04:16,196 Speaker 1: nineteen forties. My grandfather, a veteran of World War Two, 45 00:04:16,836 --> 00:04:21,076 Speaker 1: worked as a presser at a dry cleaning service. My grandmother, 46 00:04:21,436 --> 00:04:27,556 Speaker 1: his wife, was an elevator operator. My grandparents, like so 47 00:04:27,596 --> 00:04:30,596 Speaker 1: many other people who left their counties in countries in 48 00:04:30,676 --> 00:04:35,476 Speaker 1: hopes of a better future on American soil, were called invaders, 49 00:04:35,916 --> 00:04:39,916 Speaker 1: his immigrants from the global South are called today. My 50 00:04:40,036 --> 00:04:43,356 Speaker 1: grandparents were seen as a drain rather than the well 51 00:04:43,636 --> 00:04:48,116 Speaker 1: of their new communities. Like countless immigrant families over the years, 52 00:04:48,996 --> 00:04:53,036 Speaker 1: few groups of immigrants in American history from Europe, Asia, 53 00:04:53,196 --> 00:04:57,876 Speaker 1: South America, and Africa were the right immigrants or came 54 00:04:58,316 --> 00:05:07,476 Speaker 1: the right way Welcome to Be Anti Racist in Action podcast, 55 00:05:07,596 --> 00:05:12,076 Speaker 1: where we discussed how to die nos, dismantle and abolish racism, 56 00:05:12,156 --> 00:05:15,956 Speaker 1: how to save humanity from the divisiveness of racist ideas 57 00:05:16,436 --> 00:05:20,156 Speaker 1: and the destructiveness of racist power and policy, how to 58 00:05:20,236 --> 00:05:24,156 Speaker 1: free humanity through the unity of anti racist ideas and 59 00:05:24,236 --> 00:05:29,316 Speaker 1: the constructiveness of anti racist power and policy. On Be 60 00:05:29,556 --> 00:05:33,796 Speaker 1: Anti Racist, we discuss how to make the impossible possible 61 00:05:34,236 --> 00:05:37,756 Speaker 1: and how to bring into being what modern humans have 62 00:05:37,996 --> 00:05:44,996 Speaker 1: never known, a just and equitable world. You ready, let's roll. 63 00:05:59,196 --> 00:06:02,156 Speaker 1: The dream of raising a family in a place where 64 00:06:02,156 --> 00:06:07,156 Speaker 1: hard work is rewarded is not unique to Americans. It's 65 00:06:07,196 --> 00:06:11,476 Speaker 1: a human dream, one that calls across oceans and boarders. 66 00:06:12,796 --> 00:06:18,036 Speaker 1: The dream is universal, but America makes it possible, and 67 00:06:18,156 --> 00:06:23,596 Speaker 1: our investment and opportunity makes it a reality. Julian Castro 68 00:06:23,756 --> 00:06:27,116 Speaker 1: is the grandson of immigrants from Mexico. He grew up 69 00:06:27,156 --> 00:06:30,676 Speaker 1: in San Antonio, Texas, where he eventually served three terms 70 00:06:30,676 --> 00:06:35,356 Speaker 1: as mayor. In twenty fourteen, President Barack Obama named him 71 00:06:35,396 --> 00:06:39,516 Speaker 1: Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, opposed he held into 72 00:06:39,596 --> 00:06:43,876 Speaker 1: the end of the administration. In twenty eighteen, he published 73 00:06:43,876 --> 00:06:48,116 Speaker 1: a memoir entitled An Unlikely Journey waking up from my 74 00:06:48,196 --> 00:06:52,876 Speaker 1: American dream, and in twenty twenty, Castro ran for president 75 00:06:53,596 --> 00:06:57,916 Speaker 1: on a platform that proposed radically reforming the immigration system 76 00:06:58,316 --> 00:07:02,356 Speaker 1: into a people first system. Castro now serves on the 77 00:07:02,436 --> 00:07:06,476 Speaker 1: board of directors for the Center for American Progress and 78 00:07:06,756 --> 00:07:11,356 Speaker 1: as a political analyst for NBC News and MSNBC. I 79 00:07:11,436 --> 00:07:15,436 Speaker 1: recently spoke with Julian Castro about the unbreakable bond between 80 00:07:15,516 --> 00:07:20,196 Speaker 1: anti racism and immigrant rights in America. We discussed the 81 00:07:20,276 --> 00:07:24,356 Speaker 1: common ground on which anti racist and pro immigrant battles 82 00:07:24,636 --> 00:07:30,716 Speaker 1: must be fought. Secretary Castrom so happy we're able to 83 00:07:30,756 --> 00:07:33,676 Speaker 1: find some time to chat. I can tell you I've 84 00:07:34,076 --> 00:07:37,676 Speaker 1: long admired you and your work. Thank you so much 85 00:07:37,716 --> 00:07:40,436 Speaker 1: for having me, and I've admired your work for a 86 00:07:40,436 --> 00:07:42,956 Speaker 1: long time, and you're teaching all of us a lot, 87 00:07:43,116 --> 00:07:45,636 Speaker 1: so thank you for the invitation to join. You have 88 00:07:45,876 --> 00:07:49,556 Speaker 1: learned so much from you, particularly about how to be 89 00:07:50,236 --> 00:07:54,036 Speaker 1: anti racist, especially in this moment. In this time, I've 90 00:07:54,076 --> 00:07:57,236 Speaker 1: certainly learned about how to be bold and brave, how 91 00:07:57,316 --> 00:08:01,276 Speaker 1: to think through with complexity one of the most difficult 92 00:08:01,316 --> 00:08:04,796 Speaker 1: and complex issues of our time, which is immigration. This 93 00:08:04,876 --> 00:08:07,716 Speaker 1: is a pressing issue. This is an issue that's causing 94 00:08:07,756 --> 00:08:11,116 Speaker 1: people right now, in this moment as we speak, to 95 00:08:11,116 --> 00:08:14,396 Speaker 1: sit and stand and move in misery. What are the 96 00:08:14,396 --> 00:08:17,996 Speaker 1: biggest pain points right now? I mean, if you could change, 97 00:08:18,436 --> 00:08:22,836 Speaker 1: make drastic or even small changes right now to alleviate 98 00:08:22,876 --> 00:08:25,676 Speaker 1: pain and suffering, what would it be If I could 99 00:08:25,676 --> 00:08:29,116 Speaker 1: do one thing right now. I think that on a 100 00:08:29,236 --> 00:08:32,796 Speaker 1: large scale, it would be to change how Americans think 101 00:08:33,276 --> 00:08:39,236 Speaker 1: about immigrants, because for forever, not just for the last 102 00:08:39,436 --> 00:08:43,196 Speaker 1: couple of years or the last decade, we've had this 103 00:08:43,716 --> 00:08:48,756 Speaker 1: dual relationship with immigrants of both celebrating immigrant story but 104 00:08:48,916 --> 00:08:53,476 Speaker 1: also being antagonistic toward immigrants. We all know the history 105 00:08:53,516 --> 00:08:55,516 Speaker 1: of it. You know, whether you're talking about the Chinese 106 00:08:55,556 --> 00:09:00,156 Speaker 1: Exclusion Act or you're talking about Operation wet Back, which 107 00:09:00,196 --> 00:09:05,596 Speaker 1: sent Mexicans and Mexican Americans to Mexico, any number of 108 00:09:05,636 --> 00:09:09,716 Speaker 1: ways that our country has seen immigrants as other has 109 00:09:09,756 --> 00:09:13,836 Speaker 1: treated them that way. And right now after the Trump administration, 110 00:09:13,876 --> 00:09:17,156 Speaker 1: there's been a particular cruelty, a return to a cruelty 111 00:09:17,996 --> 00:09:21,356 Speaker 1: that I wish we could get out of and alleviate immediately, 112 00:09:21,876 --> 00:09:25,036 Speaker 1: and in many ways we're on that path. Joe Biden 113 00:09:25,476 --> 00:09:28,556 Speaker 1: is absolutely not Donald Trump doesn't have the dark heart 114 00:09:28,916 --> 00:09:32,876 Speaker 1: that Donald Trump had has made improvements in the treatment, 115 00:09:32,996 --> 00:09:37,196 Speaker 1: especially of children. But in some ways there's a danger 116 00:09:37,236 --> 00:09:39,876 Speaker 1: of taking some of Trump's cruel policies and making them. 117 00:09:39,876 --> 00:09:44,036 Speaker 1: The default title forty two, for instance, which was put 118 00:09:44,076 --> 00:09:48,836 Speaker 1: in place during the coronavirus pandemic to summarily keep out 119 00:09:49,276 --> 00:09:51,396 Speaker 1: people who are trying to seek asylum, they don't even 120 00:09:51,396 --> 00:09:54,356 Speaker 1: get the opportunity to make the claim. That's still in 121 00:09:54,396 --> 00:09:57,196 Speaker 1: place for a large number of people who are trying 122 00:09:57,196 --> 00:10:00,316 Speaker 1: to claim asylum. I would change the system that we've 123 00:10:00,316 --> 00:10:05,236 Speaker 1: had of keeping families and young people in essentially what 124 00:10:05,396 --> 00:10:11,076 Speaker 1: looked like metal pens or cages, and even these HHS 125 00:10:11,116 --> 00:10:16,116 Speaker 1: sponsored facilities that are better than that but still aren't 126 00:10:16,156 --> 00:10:19,116 Speaker 1: fit for children, And I would get these kids into 127 00:10:19,236 --> 00:10:24,116 Speaker 1: loving homes, loving families. We need to make so many changes. 128 00:10:24,476 --> 00:10:27,356 Speaker 1: That's not even addressing the ten or eleven million people 129 00:10:27,356 --> 00:10:30,236 Speaker 1: who are here who are undocumented already, who are living 130 00:10:30,236 --> 00:10:33,676 Speaker 1: in this limbo, but during the pandemic have stepped up 131 00:10:33,916 --> 00:10:37,476 Speaker 1: in a big way as essential workers and in so 132 00:10:37,516 --> 00:10:42,116 Speaker 1: many different ways to support the ability of everybody else 133 00:10:42,516 --> 00:10:46,276 Speaker 1: to go about their lives and be healthy and be safe. 134 00:10:47,076 --> 00:10:51,756 Speaker 1: One of the most troubling aspects of our discourse around 135 00:10:51,876 --> 00:10:57,996 Speaker 1: immigrants is that so many Americans todays great grandfathers and 136 00:10:58,116 --> 00:11:02,196 Speaker 1: great grandmothers or great great grandfathers and great great grandmothers 137 00:11:02,996 --> 00:11:09,036 Speaker 1: were demonized in similar ways that their descendants are demonizing 138 00:11:09,196 --> 00:11:12,396 Speaker 1: immigrants today, and people don't even realize that a century 139 00:11:12,396 --> 00:11:17,636 Speaker 1: ago there were efforts to not just exclude people from 140 00:11:18,076 --> 00:11:23,236 Speaker 1: Latin America, but also people from Italy, from Russia, Poland, 141 00:11:23,836 --> 00:11:27,196 Speaker 1: people from Spain, from Asia, people from Africa, everyone who 142 00:11:27,316 --> 00:11:30,316 Speaker 1: is not quote Anglo Saxon or as they said in 143 00:11:30,356 --> 00:11:34,716 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties Nordics, that all of these different groups 144 00:11:35,036 --> 00:11:39,556 Speaker 1: were demonized, and indeed, by nineteen twenty four extremely restrictive 145 00:11:39,596 --> 00:11:44,436 Speaker 1: Immigration Act was passed. I've always wondered how you thought 146 00:11:44,436 --> 00:11:48,236 Speaker 1: about that, just glaring historical contradiction. You know, it's almost 147 00:11:48,236 --> 00:11:51,076 Speaker 1: like everybody has had their turn, right. I mean, there's 148 00:11:51,276 --> 00:11:54,676 Speaker 1: quotes of Benjamin Franklin about the Germans. There was a 149 00:11:54,716 --> 00:11:56,636 Speaker 1: time when Germans and all the other groups that you 150 00:11:56,676 --> 00:12:01,716 Speaker 1: mentioned were looked upon as a scourge on this American 151 00:12:01,796 --> 00:12:04,916 Speaker 1: society and a danger to it, and they were changing 152 00:12:04,916 --> 00:12:08,236 Speaker 1: it in bad ways. And you just write that story 153 00:12:08,396 --> 00:12:11,836 Speaker 1: one generation after the next, and one nationality after the next, 154 00:12:12,236 --> 00:12:15,276 Speaker 1: and someone's just like, Oh, that's so infuriating, and you 155 00:12:15,316 --> 00:12:18,076 Speaker 1: want to say, hey, don't you understand that your own 156 00:12:18,116 --> 00:12:22,076 Speaker 1: family was treated like that at one time? And you 157 00:12:22,076 --> 00:12:24,916 Speaker 1: would think that in our country that that would give 158 00:12:25,396 --> 00:12:29,436 Speaker 1: people a greater understanding at least provide an opening for 159 00:12:29,516 --> 00:12:34,396 Speaker 1: the conversation and a point of reflection. And for some 160 00:12:34,436 --> 00:12:36,236 Speaker 1: people it does. But I find for a lot of 161 00:12:36,276 --> 00:12:38,916 Speaker 1: folks they just see that as you know, either they 162 00:12:38,916 --> 00:12:42,076 Speaker 1: don't know the history, or they don't care about the history, 163 00:12:42,316 --> 00:12:45,196 Speaker 1: or they've reconciled with the history, and they think that 164 00:12:46,076 --> 00:12:50,156 Speaker 1: today's immigrants are different. I've actually heard that argument that 165 00:12:50,276 --> 00:12:56,036 Speaker 1: today's immigrants are qualitatively different, That they're lazier, that they 166 00:12:56,156 --> 00:12:59,396 Speaker 1: end up on government assistance more, that they don't want 167 00:12:59,396 --> 00:13:03,236 Speaker 1: to culturally assimilate the same way that past generations from 168 00:13:03,316 --> 00:13:08,036 Speaker 1: these other European countries did. And I think people are 169 00:13:08,076 --> 00:13:11,596 Speaker 1: wrong on all of those counts. You have people today 170 00:13:11,596 --> 00:13:15,636 Speaker 1: that are hardworking, that have the same values. You know, 171 00:13:15,676 --> 00:13:18,436 Speaker 1: they're prideful about their culture like everybody is, but they 172 00:13:18,476 --> 00:13:20,756 Speaker 1: also are coming here for a reason to the United States. 173 00:13:20,756 --> 00:13:21,996 Speaker 1: They want to be a part of it. They see 174 00:13:22,036 --> 00:13:24,516 Speaker 1: it as the land of opportunity. Like generations past did. 175 00:13:24,996 --> 00:13:27,316 Speaker 1: They want to make something for themselves, for their family, 176 00:13:27,356 --> 00:13:30,636 Speaker 1: but also contribute to the country. They love it. And 177 00:13:30,716 --> 00:13:33,796 Speaker 1: that's the great irony. If you lined up everybody in 178 00:13:33,796 --> 00:13:35,916 Speaker 1: this country and you could measure what's in the heart 179 00:13:36,236 --> 00:13:39,796 Speaker 1: of them when it comes to their patriotism and their 180 00:13:39,876 --> 00:13:42,796 Speaker 1: love of this country, some of the highest scores there 181 00:13:42,836 --> 00:13:45,756 Speaker 1: would go to many of the very people who are demonized, 182 00:13:45,996 --> 00:13:49,796 Speaker 1: who are otherised, and who often aren't given their shot 183 00:13:49,956 --> 00:13:54,276 Speaker 1: at opportunity because of where they came from, because of 184 00:13:54,316 --> 00:13:56,756 Speaker 1: the color of their skin, because of their accent, because 185 00:13:56,756 --> 00:13:59,836 Speaker 1: of their last name, because they don't speak English as 186 00:13:59,876 --> 00:14:03,596 Speaker 1: their first language or speak it much at all. That 187 00:14:03,756 --> 00:14:07,356 Speaker 1: really is ironic, and it's sad about our country. It is. 188 00:14:07,396 --> 00:14:11,556 Speaker 1: And it wasn't just people from Poland in Italy and 189 00:14:12,396 --> 00:14:15,796 Speaker 1: Jewish people from Europe who were coming over and being 190 00:14:16,116 --> 00:14:21,396 Speaker 1: demonized and even called invaders. Black people who were migrating 191 00:14:21,476 --> 00:14:26,276 Speaker 1: up from Mississippi to Chicago, or from Georgia to Detroit, 192 00:14:26,636 --> 00:14:29,436 Speaker 1: or for the Carolinas to New York City or Boston. 193 00:14:30,036 --> 00:14:34,076 Speaker 1: They were called invaders. And so when I'm specifically talking 194 00:14:34,116 --> 00:14:39,236 Speaker 1: to black Americans who to share some of these dominant 195 00:14:39,236 --> 00:14:44,076 Speaker 1: ideas about Latin X immigrants taking jobs. I talk about 196 00:14:44,156 --> 00:14:49,116 Speaker 1: this is the same rhetoric that was deployed and utilized, 197 00:14:49,156 --> 00:14:53,276 Speaker 1: and it was rampant in the American discourse. That's true, 198 00:14:53,316 --> 00:14:55,516 Speaker 1: and you point out it's been used in different ways 199 00:14:55,556 --> 00:15:00,276 Speaker 1: against different folks and often people of color, and very 200 00:15:00,316 --> 00:15:04,916 Speaker 1: recently that division was stoked by Donald Trump. I mean, 201 00:15:04,956 --> 00:15:11,596 Speaker 1: he was going out and articulating directly, if I remember, right, 202 00:15:11,676 --> 00:15:14,516 Speaker 1: to the black community that these immigrants are taking your jobs. 203 00:15:15,276 --> 00:15:18,356 Speaker 1: There's always been an undercurrent of that, but he was 204 00:15:18,516 --> 00:15:21,436 Speaker 1: saying the quiet part out loud. The way I think 205 00:15:21,436 --> 00:15:26,236 Speaker 1: about this is that these immigrants include black immigrants. We 206 00:15:26,356 --> 00:15:29,756 Speaker 1: often don't talk about that, but more than twenty percent 207 00:15:29,916 --> 00:15:33,916 Speaker 1: of those who identify, for instance, as Latin AX are 208 00:15:34,036 --> 00:15:36,716 Speaker 1: Afro latin X. Some of them have been in the 209 00:15:36,796 --> 00:15:38,556 Speaker 1: United States for a long time, some of them are 210 00:15:38,596 --> 00:15:42,396 Speaker 1: more recent immigrants. But black immigrants have been invisible in 211 00:15:42,436 --> 00:15:46,356 Speaker 1: the conversation, but an important part of the immigrants story 212 00:15:46,556 --> 00:15:49,676 Speaker 1: in recent times. The other way I think about it 213 00:15:49,756 --> 00:15:54,716 Speaker 1: is just that there's so much more that people have 214 00:15:54,836 --> 00:15:59,236 Speaker 1: in common than what divides them. When you're talking about 215 00:15:59,276 --> 00:16:01,876 Speaker 1: the common experience or having this country of often working 216 00:16:01,916 --> 00:16:06,196 Speaker 1: low wage jobs, of living in many of the same neighborhoods, 217 00:16:06,236 --> 00:16:10,796 Speaker 1: of experiencing not exactly the same, I would say, but 218 00:16:11,356 --> 00:16:16,396 Speaker 1: still experiencing racism and bigotry bias, and so there's a 219 00:16:16,436 --> 00:16:20,156 Speaker 1: lot more. I think that should unite the immigrant community 220 00:16:20,236 --> 00:16:24,196 Speaker 1: with the black community, and it's shameful that there are 221 00:16:24,236 --> 00:16:32,036 Speaker 1: those who try and divide them. I'm holly on Castro 222 00:16:32,276 --> 00:16:36,156 Speaker 1: and you're listening to be anti racist with Abram x Kendy. 223 00:16:40,556 --> 00:16:45,436 Speaker 1: You know, sociologists have been documenting immigration for a long time. 224 00:16:46,556 --> 00:16:49,516 Speaker 1: And one of the things that sociologists are talking about, 225 00:16:49,716 --> 00:16:53,436 Speaker 1: and I think this is extremely difficult for many Americans 226 00:16:53,476 --> 00:16:57,996 Speaker 1: to hear, in particular, is what they call immigrant advantage. 227 00:16:58,516 --> 00:17:02,516 Speaker 1: So they assess immigrants in terms of resiliency, in terms 228 00:17:02,556 --> 00:17:06,516 Speaker 1: of qualities that we all as human beings share, and 229 00:17:06,556 --> 00:17:12,636 Speaker 1: they find that immigrants are uniquely sourceful, uniquely resilient across race, 230 00:17:13,276 --> 00:17:18,156 Speaker 1: right across ethnicity, across nationality. And so when we as 231 00:17:18,156 --> 00:17:23,116 Speaker 1: Americans say immigrants make the nation better, you can actually 232 00:17:23,116 --> 00:17:28,196 Speaker 1: make an empirical argument for that. How do we convey 233 00:17:28,276 --> 00:17:31,516 Speaker 1: that to the larger American public? Yeah, I mean, that's 234 00:17:31,516 --> 00:17:33,356 Speaker 1: one of the biggest crimes when it comes to this 235 00:17:33,396 --> 00:17:37,996 Speaker 1: whole narrative that we got convinced somewhere along the way 236 00:17:38,036 --> 00:17:42,596 Speaker 1: that these folks are lazy, that they're moochers, that they're 237 00:17:42,636 --> 00:17:47,476 Speaker 1: taking from the country, when all of the evidence and 238 00:17:47,596 --> 00:17:52,556 Speaker 1: our everyday experiences walking through many neighborhoods in this country, 239 00:17:52,716 --> 00:17:57,156 Speaker 1: you see the entrepreneurialism, you see the hard work, you 240 00:17:57,236 --> 00:18:02,316 Speaker 1: see the obstacles that immigrants overcome. But that story isn't told, 241 00:18:02,716 --> 00:18:07,436 Speaker 1: not told enough. And I think that changing that narrative 242 00:18:07,476 --> 00:18:11,956 Speaker 1: begins with telling that story in a very intentional way. 243 00:18:12,476 --> 00:18:14,556 Speaker 1: And I mean from the beginning. I mean right now, 244 00:18:14,596 --> 00:18:16,756 Speaker 1: when kids go through school, they don't learn that story 245 00:18:16,796 --> 00:18:23,636 Speaker 1: nearly enough, and that needs to change in our education system. Lately, 246 00:18:23,676 --> 00:18:26,196 Speaker 1: I've been paying more and more attention to what's happening 247 00:18:26,236 --> 00:18:31,396 Speaker 1: in this country with what our kids learn in their textbooks, 248 00:18:31,436 --> 00:18:34,836 Speaker 1: because too often those decisions are made by political bodies 249 00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:39,276 Speaker 1: in states, and these state boards of education have often 250 00:18:39,356 --> 00:18:44,836 Speaker 1: been taken over by right wing conservatives, including here in Texas, 251 00:18:44,876 --> 00:18:50,396 Speaker 1: that don't want those stories to be told. And if 252 00:18:50,436 --> 00:18:54,676 Speaker 1: from the very beginning our kids buy into the narrative, 253 00:18:55,596 --> 00:18:57,956 Speaker 1: that just because somebody is an immigrant working in the 254 00:18:57,996 --> 00:19:01,436 Speaker 1: fields that they have less value, that they have somehow 255 00:19:01,476 --> 00:19:04,276 Speaker 1: failed and they're not contributing as much to the country 256 00:19:04,476 --> 00:19:08,036 Speaker 1: as other people, then we've failed and we need to 257 00:19:08,156 --> 00:19:10,716 Speaker 1: change that. I was just thinking about this as you 258 00:19:10,796 --> 00:19:15,636 Speaker 1: was speaking that for many white Americans who immigrated to 259 00:19:15,676 --> 00:19:20,036 Speaker 1: this country and became these titans or great leaders, what's 260 00:19:20,076 --> 00:19:23,876 Speaker 1: typically portrayed is what allowed them to become successful was 261 00:19:23,916 --> 00:19:28,356 Speaker 1: their whiteness as opposed to them being an immigrant. That's 262 00:19:28,356 --> 00:19:31,036 Speaker 1: a great point, right. Obviously I am not white, and 263 00:19:31,076 --> 00:19:35,036 Speaker 1: so I can't put myself directly into the mind of 264 00:19:35,076 --> 00:19:39,996 Speaker 1: somebody who is. But it does seem like for many 265 00:19:40,036 --> 00:19:47,556 Speaker 1: white Americans they don't think of themselves anymore as immigrants 266 00:19:47,596 --> 00:19:49,556 Speaker 1: some of them do, you know, many of them do, 267 00:19:49,916 --> 00:19:53,356 Speaker 1: and they're certainly still in our country, these pockets, these 268 00:19:53,476 --> 00:19:58,076 Speaker 1: enclaves of beautiful immigrant communities. I think of going to 269 00:19:58,156 --> 00:20:01,876 Speaker 1: school up around Boston and the pride that you feel 270 00:20:01,916 --> 00:20:06,396 Speaker 1: over there, the strong Irish American presidence and history and culture. 271 00:20:06,716 --> 00:20:10,156 Speaker 1: So it exists, right, but I think rit large that 272 00:20:10,276 --> 00:20:12,596 Speaker 1: connection isn't there in the same way for a lot 273 00:20:12,596 --> 00:20:17,236 Speaker 1: of people, And if more thought of themselves directly as 274 00:20:17,396 --> 00:20:19,836 Speaker 1: the grandson or the granddaughter of an immigrant, or the 275 00:20:19,876 --> 00:20:22,396 Speaker 1: son or the daughter of an immigrant. I do think 276 00:20:22,476 --> 00:20:26,516 Speaker 1: that perhaps we could find more common ground, and immigrants 277 00:20:26,796 --> 00:20:32,076 Speaker 1: would be celebrated more instead of other rise and hopefully 278 00:20:32,196 --> 00:20:35,636 Speaker 1: going forward, we would avoid what we saw over the 279 00:20:35,716 --> 00:20:40,276 Speaker 1: last four years and we would improve what we've seen 280 00:20:40,876 --> 00:20:44,836 Speaker 1: visa v immigrants for the last few generations. One of 281 00:20:44,876 --> 00:20:49,596 Speaker 1: the reasons why I admire you and your work is 282 00:20:49,636 --> 00:20:53,276 Speaker 1: because I think for a long time in this nation's history, 283 00:20:53,356 --> 00:20:58,556 Speaker 1: we have conflated immigrant in criminal. But obviously the Trump 284 00:20:58,636 --> 00:21:03,076 Speaker 1: administration and Trump in particular, took that conflation to another 285 00:21:03,156 --> 00:21:07,516 Speaker 1: level by calling people animals and rapists and criminals. And you, 286 00:21:07,916 --> 00:21:13,476 Speaker 1: it seems like, more than anyone else, directly challenge that conflation, 287 00:21:13,636 --> 00:21:15,956 Speaker 1: not only in a narrative form, but even in a 288 00:21:16,036 --> 00:21:19,676 Speaker 1: policy form. Why has that been so important to you? Well, 289 00:21:19,756 --> 00:21:22,556 Speaker 1: I mean it made me mad. It made me mad 290 00:21:22,596 --> 00:21:25,836 Speaker 1: to listen to what he was saying, how he was 291 00:21:26,276 --> 00:21:30,516 Speaker 1: demonizing immigrants, the language he was using. I grew up 292 00:21:30,676 --> 00:21:33,916 Speaker 1: in San Antonio, Texas, a community with a lot of immigrants, 293 00:21:33,996 --> 00:21:36,436 Speaker 1: recent immigrants, and then also folks like me who were 294 00:21:36,476 --> 00:21:41,036 Speaker 1: second generation, even others, third, fourth, fifth, generation. I knew 295 00:21:41,116 --> 00:21:43,836 Speaker 1: that what he was selling wasn't the truth. I also 296 00:21:43,916 --> 00:21:48,676 Speaker 1: knew that in a political campaign, you have to translate 297 00:21:49,716 --> 00:21:54,796 Speaker 1: policy into a narrative, and what I wanted to do 298 00:21:55,076 --> 00:22:00,356 Speaker 1: was to present a different narrative about immigrants. In many ways, 299 00:22:00,356 --> 00:22:04,396 Speaker 1: the classic narrative of the hard working immigrant who is 300 00:22:04,796 --> 00:22:07,236 Speaker 1: here with a dream, who wants to do well for 301 00:22:07,276 --> 00:22:11,196 Speaker 1: themselves and for their family. But try and update that too, 302 00:22:11,356 --> 00:22:14,916 Speaker 1: to say, look, these folks that are coming from Honduras 303 00:22:15,116 --> 00:22:19,036 Speaker 1: or Il or wherever they're coming from. They're no different 304 00:22:19,836 --> 00:22:24,916 Speaker 1: than immigrants who are coming a century ago. So we 305 00:22:24,956 --> 00:22:28,076 Speaker 1: should give them the opportunity to make a life in 306 00:22:28,076 --> 00:22:30,596 Speaker 1: the United States the way that so many people had 307 00:22:30,636 --> 00:22:34,356 Speaker 1: the opportunity to before. In the campaign, I also had 308 00:22:34,356 --> 00:22:36,876 Speaker 1: to make a decision about whether I would be bold 309 00:22:36,916 --> 00:22:41,476 Speaker 1: on immigration, knowing that in doing that a lot of 310 00:22:41,516 --> 00:22:44,236 Speaker 1: people would write me off as being the brown guy 311 00:22:44,356 --> 00:22:47,756 Speaker 1: doing brown things. Well, you're just talking about that because 312 00:22:48,836 --> 00:22:52,076 Speaker 1: you know the Latino candidate in the race, and that 313 00:22:52,076 --> 00:22:54,316 Speaker 1: that would be an easy way for people to dismiss 314 00:22:54,596 --> 00:22:56,796 Speaker 1: my candidacy, or at least to give a short shrift. 315 00:22:57,716 --> 00:23:01,196 Speaker 1: And honestly, I put thought into that because when you 316 00:23:01,276 --> 00:23:04,116 Speaker 1: run for office. You're not just running to run, You're 317 00:23:04,156 --> 00:23:08,196 Speaker 1: trying to run to win. But I decided that in 318 00:23:08,236 --> 00:23:10,676 Speaker 1: a time when a lot of people, a lot of politicians, 319 00:23:10,716 --> 00:23:14,756 Speaker 1: were being what I thought was fairly timid and scared 320 00:23:14,796 --> 00:23:18,796 Speaker 1: of the issue of immigration, that somebody needed to be 321 00:23:18,836 --> 00:23:22,756 Speaker 1: as bold to actually tell a true narrative and push 322 00:23:22,756 --> 00:23:26,956 Speaker 1: in the other direction in a sound, reasonable way, in 323 00:23:27,116 --> 00:23:29,956 Speaker 1: order to combat what Donald Trump was doing. And I 324 00:23:29,996 --> 00:23:32,636 Speaker 1: also felt, frankly like I would not sell out. I 325 00:23:32,636 --> 00:23:36,636 Speaker 1: would not let down the community and the communities that 326 00:23:37,436 --> 00:23:42,516 Speaker 1: I know and that I respect and that had given 327 00:23:42,596 --> 00:23:46,236 Speaker 1: me lift in life. I wouldn't use my shot as 328 00:23:46,236 --> 00:23:51,236 Speaker 1: a presidential candidate to sell them out by going quiet 329 00:23:51,276 --> 00:23:55,356 Speaker 1: on that issue at the very time when a bigoted 330 00:23:55,396 --> 00:23:59,876 Speaker 1: president was making this his number one issue. What was 331 00:23:59,956 --> 00:24:03,316 Speaker 1: surprising to me, but then again was not surprising to me, 332 00:24:03,916 --> 00:24:07,876 Speaker 1: is black men and Latino men voted for Trump the 333 00:24:07,996 --> 00:24:11,756 Speaker 1: second time. What do you make of that? Because obviously 334 00:24:11,916 --> 00:24:15,356 Speaker 1: Democrats are going to have to figure out why that's happening. 335 00:24:15,556 --> 00:24:18,516 Speaker 1: And the reason why I'm asking is because first is 336 00:24:18,556 --> 00:24:23,036 Speaker 1: that black men Black people are extremely diverse ideologically, just 337 00:24:23,076 --> 00:24:26,156 Speaker 1: as Hispanic and Latino and Latin X people are. But 338 00:24:26,196 --> 00:24:32,876 Speaker 1: then also the narrative of change and loss that Donald 339 00:24:32,916 --> 00:24:36,836 Speaker 1: Trump and others like him are pushing that it seems 340 00:24:36,956 --> 00:24:40,036 Speaker 1: men of color are being attractive to At least that's 341 00:24:40,076 --> 00:24:42,316 Speaker 1: what I'm seeing is happening in the black community, that 342 00:24:42,356 --> 00:24:46,396 Speaker 1: black men are feeling as if they're aggrieved, and I'm 343 00:24:46,396 --> 00:24:50,316 Speaker 1: wondering if you think it's similarly happening among Latino men. Yeah, 344 00:24:50,396 --> 00:24:51,676 Speaker 1: I do. I mean, I think there are a lot 345 00:24:51,716 --> 00:24:56,036 Speaker 1: of things going on there. First, Donald Trump portrayed himself 346 00:24:56,556 --> 00:24:59,516 Speaker 1: as the ultimate outsider that was throwing a finger at 347 00:24:59,516 --> 00:25:03,876 Speaker 1: the system. Just speaking for what I know in the 348 00:25:03,956 --> 00:25:07,036 Speaker 1: Latino community, you have a lot of people that are 349 00:25:07,036 --> 00:25:10,156 Speaker 1: on the outside, a lot of people that have resentment. 350 00:25:10,436 --> 00:25:12,596 Speaker 1: You know, at different points in my life, I've felt 351 00:25:12,636 --> 00:25:16,636 Speaker 1: that because you feel like you work hard and you're 352 00:25:16,676 --> 00:25:20,076 Speaker 1: not getting the same opportunity. A lot of people living 353 00:25:20,396 --> 00:25:24,276 Speaker 1: in poverty, they see themselves as not part of the establishment, 354 00:25:24,996 --> 00:25:28,676 Speaker 1: and so that part of it may have connected. The 355 00:25:28,796 --> 00:25:33,236 Speaker 1: other part that I think connected was a very clear narrative. 356 00:25:33,516 --> 00:25:36,636 Speaker 1: People knew what he stood for, and I think anytime 357 00:25:36,716 --> 00:25:39,636 Speaker 1: you provide that kind of clarity, then you're going to 358 00:25:39,756 --> 00:25:42,636 Speaker 1: get some people that may have been sitting on the 359 00:25:42,716 --> 00:25:46,236 Speaker 1: sidelines to go in your direction. And then also I 360 00:25:46,276 --> 00:25:51,236 Speaker 1: think at a mechanical level, his campaign, especially through social media, 361 00:25:51,596 --> 00:25:57,716 Speaker 1: including through disinformation, was very good at targeting specific communities, 362 00:25:57,876 --> 00:26:02,196 Speaker 1: whether in South Florida or South Texas or other places, 363 00:26:02,956 --> 00:26:07,156 Speaker 1: with messages that they knew would resonate. In South Florida, 364 00:26:07,436 --> 00:26:12,916 Speaker 1: that message about socialism in South Texas, a message about guns, 365 00:26:12,916 --> 00:26:17,076 Speaker 1: a message about oil and gas, whatever it was. And 366 00:26:17,156 --> 00:26:20,356 Speaker 1: so you add all of that up, and I think 367 00:26:20,436 --> 00:26:22,876 Speaker 1: that's the movement you see. I will say, when it 368 00:26:22,916 --> 00:26:27,476 Speaker 1: comes to the Latino or Latino community, the strong majority 369 00:26:27,476 --> 00:26:31,276 Speaker 1: of people are still voting for the Democrat and they 370 00:26:31,356 --> 00:26:34,716 Speaker 1: voted for Joe Biden. But it is a point of 371 00:26:34,716 --> 00:26:38,996 Speaker 1: concern the Democrats cannot take the Latin X community for granted. 372 00:26:39,236 --> 00:26:43,556 Speaker 1: I think that you had a very clear message about 373 00:26:43,636 --> 00:26:48,996 Speaker 1: how immigration can be changed. You've talked about people first immigration, 374 00:26:49,276 --> 00:26:52,596 Speaker 1: what is that. It's a concern with the well being 375 00:26:52,716 --> 00:26:57,316 Speaker 1: of immigrants as people, seeing them first and foremost as 376 00:26:57,356 --> 00:27:02,196 Speaker 1: people that share the same hopes and dreams and aspirations 377 00:27:02,876 --> 00:27:06,756 Speaker 1: as all of us. Obviously, like everybody I know. Look, 378 00:27:06,876 --> 00:27:10,076 Speaker 1: the country has borders. Every country is going to enforce 379 00:27:10,116 --> 00:27:13,236 Speaker 1: their borders. We're going to have immigration laws that we 380 00:27:13,356 --> 00:27:17,756 Speaker 1: do enforce. But as we talked about, too oftentimes our 381 00:27:17,996 --> 00:27:24,796 Speaker 1: policies get overinfluenced by this demonization, this otherization. I have 382 00:27:24,876 --> 00:27:27,516 Speaker 1: often said that if we're not careful in the United States, 383 00:27:27,556 --> 00:27:30,276 Speaker 1: that in twenty or thirty years, we're going to be 384 00:27:30,276 --> 00:27:35,556 Speaker 1: begging people to immigrate to this country like other countries are. Yeah, 385 00:27:35,596 --> 00:27:37,916 Speaker 1: I mean, you have that challenge in other countries. And 386 00:27:37,996 --> 00:27:40,036 Speaker 1: that's not a put down of our country. I mean, 387 00:27:40,116 --> 00:27:42,356 Speaker 1: we love our country and I believe this is a 388 00:27:42,396 --> 00:27:45,876 Speaker 1: wonderful nation in many ways. But we also have to 389 00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:48,076 Speaker 1: be realistic. When you look into the future and you 390 00:27:48,116 --> 00:27:51,436 Speaker 1: set policy for the future, and a sound immigration policy 391 00:27:51,556 --> 00:27:55,756 Speaker 1: that allows enough immigrants to come and work their magic 392 00:27:56,116 --> 00:27:59,596 Speaker 1: on the country like they always have, that's in the 393 00:27:59,636 --> 00:28:02,516 Speaker 1: best interests of all of us. I'm always trying to 394 00:28:02,556 --> 00:28:06,036 Speaker 1: figure out a way to understand the perspectives in the 395 00:28:06,076 --> 00:28:09,316 Speaker 1: experiences of different peoples, and one of the way in 396 00:28:09,356 --> 00:28:12,436 Speaker 1: which I try to do that is pathways through my 397 00:28:12,476 --> 00:28:15,076 Speaker 1: own experience. So one of the ways I think about 398 00:28:15,276 --> 00:28:19,396 Speaker 1: undocumented immigrants on a path to citizenship. You tell me 399 00:28:19,476 --> 00:28:21,476 Speaker 1: whether this is a wrong way of thinking about it, 400 00:28:21,516 --> 00:28:26,116 Speaker 1: particularly for Black Americans. There was a time two hundred 401 00:28:26,196 --> 00:28:29,756 Speaker 1: years ago in this country where you had people who 402 00:28:29,876 --> 00:28:34,556 Speaker 1: fled violence on plantations, and we're living where I live 403 00:28:34,636 --> 00:28:39,756 Speaker 1: now in Boston, but because they had fled violence, they 404 00:28:39,796 --> 00:28:42,916 Speaker 1: had to almost live in the shadows. And it seems 405 00:28:42,956 --> 00:28:48,236 Speaker 1: to me that Americans today can understand how precarious the 406 00:28:48,356 --> 00:28:51,236 Speaker 1: lives of those black folks who fled violence, who fled 407 00:28:51,276 --> 00:28:56,996 Speaker 1: slavery to freedom were, but they can't seem to see 408 00:28:57,036 --> 00:29:00,156 Speaker 1: how precarious the lives of undocumented people are today. Do 409 00:29:00,196 --> 00:29:03,596 Speaker 1: you think that's an app analogy. Certainly. I think that, 410 00:29:03,756 --> 00:29:06,996 Speaker 1: of course slavery is something different from what people are 411 00:29:06,996 --> 00:29:11,676 Speaker 1: facing in these Northern Triangle countries, But that fleeing from 412 00:29:11,756 --> 00:29:17,836 Speaker 1: danger and that common aspiration to find safety and to 413 00:29:17,916 --> 00:29:21,956 Speaker 1: find opportunity and a better life, and to be able 414 00:29:21,956 --> 00:29:24,236 Speaker 1: to go to sleep at night knowing that your children 415 00:29:24,396 --> 00:29:27,676 Speaker 1: are okay and that they're going to have a future 416 00:29:28,076 --> 00:29:30,716 Speaker 1: better than they would have if you stayed where you were. 417 00:29:31,596 --> 00:29:37,716 Speaker 1: I think that's a common experience of yesterday and today, 418 00:29:38,276 --> 00:29:42,316 Speaker 1: and in those different contexts too. I think you're right 419 00:29:42,476 --> 00:29:44,876 Speaker 1: that I don't think most Americans think of it that way. 420 00:29:45,716 --> 00:29:48,436 Speaker 1: You know, in this country, frankly, as you've pointed out, 421 00:29:48,436 --> 00:29:50,796 Speaker 1: and no better than I do. I mean, we have 422 00:29:50,876 --> 00:29:54,196 Speaker 1: people rewriting that narrative about slavery that don't want to 423 00:29:54,196 --> 00:29:58,516 Speaker 1: acknowledge what happened, right, And we've had that since it happened. 424 00:29:59,076 --> 00:30:01,876 Speaker 1: And if we're not even willing to acknowledge what we 425 00:30:01,996 --> 00:30:06,276 Speaker 1: know happened in our own country, what are we going 426 00:30:06,356 --> 00:30:09,596 Speaker 1: to do When we don't have that common ex experience 427 00:30:09,876 --> 00:30:14,316 Speaker 1: or know have insight into these other countries that people 428 00:30:14,316 --> 00:30:18,276 Speaker 1: are coming from. It becomes even easier to dismiss that 429 00:30:18,356 --> 00:30:21,916 Speaker 1: as hey, look, you know, I don't know what's going 430 00:30:21,956 --> 00:30:24,196 Speaker 1: on over there, but they should make it in their 431 00:30:24,236 --> 00:30:27,756 Speaker 1: own country. One of the things I put out there, 432 00:30:28,196 --> 00:30:33,876 Speaker 1: which oddly enough actually I think resonated because Americans would 433 00:30:33,956 --> 00:30:38,596 Speaker 1: rather that it be handled over there, was this twenty 434 00:30:38,596 --> 00:30:44,716 Speaker 1: first century martial plan for Central America, working with those countries, 435 00:30:44,756 --> 00:30:47,836 Speaker 1: investing in those countries in the right way so that 436 00:30:47,876 --> 00:30:51,516 Speaker 1: people could find safety and opportunity at home instead of 437 00:30:51,556 --> 00:30:54,436 Speaker 1: having to make the dangerous journey to the United States. Wait, 438 00:30:54,476 --> 00:30:57,756 Speaker 1: so you're telling me that the people who rail against 439 00:30:57,796 --> 00:31:02,476 Speaker 1: the quote invasion aren't also seeking to push a marshal 440 00:31:02,556 --> 00:31:05,116 Speaker 1: plan is that it just doesn't sound right to me. Well, 441 00:31:05,196 --> 00:31:08,076 Speaker 1: now I think people are more willing to support that. 442 00:31:08,796 --> 00:31:10,876 Speaker 1: Some of the don't want to support any of it, right, No, 443 00:31:10,956 --> 00:31:13,156 Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. So you have some folks who 444 00:31:13,236 --> 00:31:15,716 Speaker 1: wouldn't even support that plan. Yeah, I mean at the 445 00:31:15,796 --> 00:31:19,036 Speaker 1: same time they rail against people coming. That's right. I 446 00:31:19,116 --> 00:31:21,156 Speaker 1: think they just the way they want to solve the 447 00:31:21,236 --> 00:31:24,596 Speaker 1: problem is just keep them out and as some said, 448 00:31:24,796 --> 00:31:29,356 Speaker 1: literally shoot people at the border. And that sounds like, 449 00:31:29,396 --> 00:31:31,716 Speaker 1: what are you talking about? But remember Trump was talking 450 00:31:31,756 --> 00:31:34,396 Speaker 1: in those terms. He would give life to that. He 451 00:31:34,476 --> 00:31:38,916 Speaker 1: unleashed those kinds of feelings and ideas and gave them sustenance. 452 00:31:39,356 --> 00:31:42,396 Speaker 1: But I think that when you make policy, you have 453 00:31:42,476 --> 00:31:45,996 Speaker 1: to take into account not just the people that agree 454 00:31:46,036 --> 00:31:48,356 Speaker 1: with you, but also the people that disagree with you. 455 00:31:48,796 --> 00:31:52,356 Speaker 1: And when it came to twenty first century martial plan 456 00:31:52,476 --> 00:31:55,396 Speaker 1: for Central America, I mean what I wanted to see 457 00:31:55,556 --> 00:31:59,836 Speaker 1: was these human beings able to live their lives in 458 00:31:59,996 --> 00:32:05,876 Speaker 1: safety and with opportunity and be okay. And for others 459 00:32:05,956 --> 00:32:08,196 Speaker 1: that was I just don't want them on my doorstep, 460 00:32:08,556 --> 00:32:10,476 Speaker 1: and I want to at the board of the United 461 00:32:10,476 --> 00:32:13,156 Speaker 1: States and coming to the United States. But look, we 462 00:32:13,156 --> 00:32:16,556 Speaker 1: can find common ground there in the sense that I 463 00:32:16,596 --> 00:32:18,876 Speaker 1: want to make it possible for them to be able 464 00:32:18,916 --> 00:32:23,076 Speaker 1: to be happy and fulfilled where they are as well. 465 00:32:23,396 --> 00:32:26,196 Speaker 1: Maybe for a different reason, but that part of it 466 00:32:26,236 --> 00:32:29,276 Speaker 1: was interesting to me during the campaign. What it seems 467 00:32:29,316 --> 00:32:32,876 Speaker 1: like to me is you're advocating for the United States 468 00:32:32,916 --> 00:32:36,596 Speaker 1: to ensure that people in Northern Triangle as well as 469 00:32:36,636 --> 00:32:39,596 Speaker 1: across the world are treated humanely in their own countries, 470 00:32:40,236 --> 00:32:42,396 Speaker 1: and then when they come and if they come to 471 00:32:42,516 --> 00:32:45,916 Speaker 1: United States, they're treating humanely here too. That's true. Why 472 00:32:45,996 --> 00:32:48,956 Speaker 1: is that such a radical idea? Yeah? No, I mean 473 00:32:48,996 --> 00:32:52,036 Speaker 1: it's not radical. And the United States, that's what we 474 00:32:52,116 --> 00:32:54,276 Speaker 1: pride ourselves on, or have for a long time, right, 475 00:32:54,316 --> 00:32:57,916 Speaker 1: I mean, we were the champions of human rights on 476 00:32:57,956 --> 00:33:00,836 Speaker 1: the one hand, but then on the other hand, we 477 00:33:00,876 --> 00:33:04,996 Speaker 1: have over the years failed in so many ways, and 478 00:33:05,076 --> 00:33:07,796 Speaker 1: it's been this process of trying to get better and better, 479 00:33:07,836 --> 00:33:09,956 Speaker 1: and we have made a lot of agress, for sure, 480 00:33:10,756 --> 00:33:15,196 Speaker 1: but sometimes you still have that duality there, exactly. Well, 481 00:33:15,396 --> 00:33:18,516 Speaker 1: Secretary Castro, is truly an honor to talk to you 482 00:33:18,596 --> 00:33:23,276 Speaker 1: and to learn from you, and indeed for this community 483 00:33:23,316 --> 00:33:26,556 Speaker 1: to hear just how critically important it is for us 484 00:33:26,596 --> 00:33:30,956 Speaker 1: to have a people first immigration system whereby people are 485 00:33:30,996 --> 00:33:34,756 Speaker 1: not considered the problem, whereby we're thinking about ways to 486 00:33:34,876 --> 00:33:39,316 Speaker 1: change policies and practices to treat people humanely no matter 487 00:33:39,356 --> 00:33:41,956 Speaker 1: where they come from around the world. And I just 488 00:33:41,996 --> 00:33:44,916 Speaker 1: want to thank you for your insight and advocacy on 489 00:33:45,076 --> 00:33:50,156 Speaker 1: your voice on this extremely American of all issues, Doctor Kenny, 490 00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:52,516 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me, and thank you 491 00:33:52,636 --> 00:33:55,796 Speaker 1: for teaching all of us. The contribution that you've made 492 00:33:55,956 --> 00:34:00,276 Speaker 1: has been enormous and I'm very grateful for it. Good 493 00:34:00,316 --> 00:34:06,156 Speaker 1: to talk to you. Of course, many of us have 494 00:34:06,316 --> 00:34:09,676 Speaker 1: heard the infamous lines of the sonnet on the pedestal 495 00:34:09,756 --> 00:34:13,796 Speaker 1: of the Statue of Liberty. Give me your tired, your poor, 496 00:34:14,236 --> 00:34:18,716 Speaker 1: your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse 497 00:34:18,956 --> 00:34:23,796 Speaker 1: of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless tempest tossed 498 00:34:24,036 --> 00:34:28,196 Speaker 1: to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door. 499 00:34:29,516 --> 00:34:33,996 Speaker 1: Edward de la Boulay, a staunch abolitionist, was the person 500 00:34:34,036 --> 00:34:37,716 Speaker 1: who first proposed at France give a monument to the 501 00:34:37,796 --> 00:34:42,876 Speaker 1: United States to celebrate the two countries shared commitment to democracy. 502 00:34:43,436 --> 00:34:47,596 Speaker 1: La Boulay wanted the statue to commemorate the Thirteenth Amendment's 503 00:34:47,716 --> 00:34:53,316 Speaker 1: emancipation of enslaved people after the Civil War. French sculptor 504 00:34:53,476 --> 00:34:59,276 Speaker 1: Frederic August Bartoldi initially modeled a Lady Liberty who grasped 505 00:34:59,396 --> 00:35:02,916 Speaker 1: broken shackles in her left hand. She was supposed to 506 00:35:02,956 --> 00:35:07,276 Speaker 1: represent the abolition of slavery. However, the Northerners and Southerners 507 00:35:07,356 --> 00:35:11,716 Speaker 1: tasked with raising funds with the statue's pedestal convinced the 508 00:35:11,836 --> 00:35:16,036 Speaker 1: artists to downplay the celebration of black freedom and instead 509 00:35:16,116 --> 00:35:20,516 Speaker 1: emphasize the friendship between the United States and France. Are 510 00:35:20,516 --> 00:35:25,076 Speaker 1: Toldy obliged and placed the shackles in pieces at Lady 511 00:35:25,116 --> 00:35:34,036 Speaker 1: Liberty's feet, largely hidden under her robe. The shackles around 512 00:35:34,076 --> 00:35:37,436 Speaker 1: immigrants are no longer hidden under the robe of the 513 00:35:37,516 --> 00:35:42,956 Speaker 1: Statue of Liberty. Immigrants are being openly shackled. Americans are 514 00:35:43,036 --> 00:35:46,436 Speaker 1: learning the ways in which their own descendants were shackled 515 00:35:46,756 --> 00:35:50,916 Speaker 1: when they immigrated to the United States. Immigrants from the 516 00:35:50,956 --> 00:35:55,396 Speaker 1: Global South have endured the shackling for decades. Based on 517 00:35:55,476 --> 00:36:00,876 Speaker 1: his own family's experiences as Mexican Americans, Julian Castro proposed 518 00:36:00,916 --> 00:36:05,556 Speaker 1: a people first immigration system that focuses on building communities 519 00:36:05,596 --> 00:36:11,716 Speaker 1: and liberty instead of shackles and walls. We must continue 520 00:36:11,876 --> 00:36:16,876 Speaker 1: to fight for freedom until everyone can breathe free and 521 00:36:17,036 --> 00:36:21,156 Speaker 1: cross the threshold of the Golden Door as promised by 522 00:36:21,236 --> 00:36:27,036 Speaker 1: Lady Liberty. We must fight for an anti racist immigration system. 523 00:36:27,076 --> 00:36:40,356 Speaker 1: We must be anti racist. The Anti Racist is a 524 00:36:40,396 --> 00:36:43,076 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries and our Heart Media. It is 525 00:36:43,116 --> 00:36:45,876 Speaker 1: written and hosted by doctor ebramax Kindy and produced by 526 00:36:45,876 --> 00:36:49,916 Speaker 1: Alexandra Garratton with associate producer Brittany Brown. Our engineer has 527 00:36:49,956 --> 00:36:52,676 Speaker 1: been Talladay, Our editor is Julia Barton and our shore 528 00:36:52,716 --> 00:36:56,276 Speaker 1: runners Sasha Mathist. Our executive producers are the Time Mullad 529 00:36:56,316 --> 00:36:59,156 Speaker 1: and Mio Lobell. Many thanks to Tammy Win and doctor 530 00:36:59,196 --> 00:37:01,596 Speaker 1: Heather Sandford at the Center for Anti Racist Research at 531 00:37:01,596 --> 00:37:04,476 Speaker 1: Boston University for all of the help at Pushkin. Thanks 532 00:37:04,476 --> 00:37:08,636 Speaker 1: to Heather Fame, Carlie Mcgleori, Sean Schnars, and Jacob Wiseberg. 533 00:37:09,196 --> 00:37:11,556 Speaker 1: You can find doctor Kendey on Twitter at d r 534 00:37:11,676 --> 00:37:15,436 Speaker 1: Abram and on Instagram at Abram x K. You can 535 00:37:15,476 --> 00:37:18,836 Speaker 1: find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods. You 536 00:37:18,876 --> 00:37:22,076 Speaker 1: can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm 537 00:37:22,116 --> 00:37:24,556 Speaker 1: to find more Pushkin podcasts, Listen on the Our Heart 538 00:37:24,636 --> 00:37:27,876 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you like to listen.