1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to good Game of Sarah Spain where we're screaming 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: Happy Daly. It's Wednesday, January first, twenty twenty five. Holy shit. 3 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 2: Today we're running it back with Leijia Clarendon. 4 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: They joined me back in October, not long after retiring 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 1: from the WNBA. We talked embracing this next phase of 6 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: his life, navigating identity and gender and pro sports, and 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: about the Kappy Engelbert CNBC interview that sparked conversations across 8 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: the league. That conversation's coming up right after this stick around. 9 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 2: Joining us now. 10 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: They played eleven seasons in the WNBA, were the first 11 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: openly non binary WNBA player and the first active WNBA 12 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: player to have top surgery. Former vice president of the 13 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: Players Association, she uses all the pronouns and is the 14 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: founder of the Laisa Clarendon Foundation. He played for the 15 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: Indiana Fever, the Atlanta Dream, the Connecticut Son, the New 16 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: York Liberty, the Minnesota Lynx, and the Los Angeles Sparks, 17 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: and is one of just four players in Sparks franchise 18 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: history to put up a triple double before announcing his 19 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: retirement at the end of this season. 20 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 2: She's a proud Berkeley alum. 21 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: She and her badass wife Jessica Clarendon are enjoying the 22 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: ups and downs of parenthood and we've both collected checks 23 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: from the Golden State Warriors despite never suiting up. 24 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 2: It's Leisia Clarendon. 25 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 3: What's up, Lasia, what's up? I love the I played 26 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 3: for half the league. That's like my favorite party I 27 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 3: really have. 28 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: I think I'm saddest about your retirement because I wanted 29 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: to see if you could try to hit every team 30 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: and you had to get moving because the expansion teams 31 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: were going to make it a little tougher. 32 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, make it last. 33 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 2: Fair, fair, fair fair. 34 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: Also regarding the Golden State Warriors, I met Laisia for 35 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: the first time in person when we did a panel 36 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: for Women's History Month for the Warriors that they were 37 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: going to like do all this stuff with, and it 38 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: was so great to be flown out and spend time 39 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: with these incredibly brilliant people. And that's when I first 40 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: learned about your brilliance, Leasia. And then of course it 41 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: never ran because COVID hit and my husband always thought 42 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: it was funny though that I had to check from 43 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: the Warriors. He was like you got to frame that 44 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: and just say that You've got a couple of minutes 45 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: in garbage times. 46 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 3: Seriously, that was a bummer because it was a really 47 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 3: dope just a group of people and it like, yeah, 48 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 3: never shared. I think about that like every. 49 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 2: Now and Oh, such a good conversation. 50 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 3: Floating somewhere in someone's you know, desktop storage. 51 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: Let's talk retirement first. Congratulations eleven seasons in the w 52 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: You've only had a few weeks. But how's retirement treating 53 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:33,839 Speaker 1: you so far? 54 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 3: So far, It's amazing, no regrets, super at peace. I'm 55 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 3: enjoying like every minute of waking up and like making 56 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 3: my schedule whatever the what can we coust on here? 57 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 3: We definitely can. Oh hell yeah, okay, whatever the I 58 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 3: want it to be. I was like, I know it's you, Sarah, 59 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 3: so you guys. Ale, Yeah, just making my schedule whatever 60 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 3: I want it to be every day, which is lovely, 61 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 3: which is just you know, like getting your body back 62 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 3: from sports. So that's been like the most beautiful part 63 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 3: about it. It's like I don't have to train today. 64 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 3: I can just go for a walk, I could ride 65 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 3: my bike, I could do nothing. 66 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: That's so relatable, Thank you, because I remember talking to 67 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: like Sue Bird and Megan Rapino, and they struggled a 68 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: bit more with that because they liked that part of 69 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 1: it eventually, but at the very beginning, the first few 70 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: days and weeks, they were like, wait, no one's telling 71 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: me what to do. What am I supposed to do? 72 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: If no one's telling me what to do and where 73 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: to be? And you're already past that, you're like, well, 74 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: on to like, Ooh, how nice. I don't have to 75 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: go for a run unless I want to. 76 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 2: I choose what I want to do. 77 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 3: I'm a Taurus and I love like opulence and luxury 78 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 3: and taking back. Okay, I love to cook, So I've 79 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 3: been cooking time, going to farmers Market every weekend. 80 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 2: Oh what a dream. 81 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, that sounds so nice, eating my best life. You 82 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 4: said after retiring that you didn't want people to ask 83 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 4: you what's next. 84 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: You wanted to really be in the moment and appreciate 85 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: what you've accomplished as a player. 86 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 2: Have you been able to do that? I have. 87 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 3: I was actually talking to my therapist about that, of one, 88 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 3: how to answer that question of just like figuring out 89 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 3: that I am really content right now, but the pressure 90 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 3: from the outside is that, Like people keep asking me 91 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 3: what's next? What do you want to do? And I'm 92 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 3: actually really content right now not knowing what's next and 93 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 3: really just being in this reflective mode, honestly being in 94 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 3: a deep amount of grief. Today it feels light, you, 95 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 3: thank God, as I'm on this podcast. But other days 96 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 3: it's just been heavy and I've just sobbed and cried, 97 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 3: and I've felt the heartbreak of like losing a part 98 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 3: of myself, of like grieving like this death of Lesia 99 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 3: Claren in the Basketball Player. And so I've really been 100 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 3: honoring myself, honoring my career. That's been something I've done 101 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 3: over a decade professionally, but also my entire life of 102 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 3: just being really in that space of like I did 103 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 3: something for a long time, and that's really beautiful. Yeah, hi, honey, 104 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 105 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: I love that we're getting a little bit of momhood 106 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: right here. Yeah, I hear a kiddo, we're definitely keeping 107 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: a little bit of that. 108 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 2: And it's it's too cute, little pa. 109 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 3: Just hear up the stairs. 110 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: Yep. Okay. 111 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: I love and hate the amount of introspection that retirement 112 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: from sports requires at a young age, because most people 113 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: whatever it is, that's their identity. They can usually do 114 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,239 Speaker 1: it for a really long time unless something tragically takes 115 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: it away. 116 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 2: A cook, a musician, even a dancer, they. 117 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: Can kind of change the way their body moves, but 118 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: there's only certain opportunities to really participate at the highest 119 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: levels in sport, and that timeline is so short. Is 120 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: there a part of you that when you thought about 121 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: this coming down the pike, you had already started to 122 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: think about a change in identity and how you would 123 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: deal with it. Or are you finding that the finality 124 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: of it has has hit you in a way that 125 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: you know now you're having to process like what do 126 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: I want? 127 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: And who am I? And what's next? 128 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 3: Oh God, a little bit of bolt, I would say, 129 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,559 Speaker 3: like I in twenty nineteen was one of my first 130 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 3: major injuries, and I'm really grateful Howard. I was playing 131 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 3: for the Connecticut sign I busted my ankle in practice 132 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 3: and I was out for three months, so just relatively 133 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 3: like short for a major surgery, like an injury. But 134 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 3: what that injury did was I was in therapy at 135 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,799 Speaker 3: the time. It helped me start to examine my relationship 136 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 3: with basketball, and I couldn't believe basketball did that to me. 137 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 3: I was like, how could it let me down? How 138 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 3: could it? I've given it everything in my whole life, 139 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 3: and it's been the way I've coped and like it 140 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 3: just I felt mad at basketball and my therapist is like, oh, 141 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 3: let's talk about this more. And so I started to 142 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 3: examine the way I'm in relationship with basketball, and I 143 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 3: never thought about it that way, even though I've done 144 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 3: it my whole life. It's like my longest relationship with 145 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 3: my entire life. And so in that way, I I 146 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 3: would say the last five years have really prepared me 147 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 3: for the moment to retire now because I've done a 148 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 3: lot of work around my identity and around sport and 149 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 3: like restructuring my relationship to the game of basketball, and 150 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 3: I've healed quite a bit, and I think that's what 151 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 3: allowed me to be able to walk away and be like, 152 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 3: I know it's time. This year and the last years 153 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 3: I had just been wrestling with like right bodies moving slower, 154 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 3: like I'm healing. I could see some of the you know, 155 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 3: toxic parts of sports a little more than I could before. 156 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 3: I'm not using it to cope in the same way 157 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 3: I was because I feel, you know, worthy and enough, 158 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 3: so I'm not like doing these million tasks to like 159 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 3: prove to myself that I'm worthy. Like I was just 160 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 3: healing and now I could see the sport a lot differently, 161 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 3: and I still loved the game with all my heart, 162 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 3: but I was able to be like, all right, it's time, 163 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 3: and my body knows it's time. My spirit, yeah, all 164 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 3: of you was just like it's time and that's okay. 165 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: You did such a panel at our espnW summit last 166 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: year with er fight Master and Nicky Hilts, talking about 167 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: trans participation in sports and gender and sport, and I 168 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: remember very distinctly you speaking to not only the responsibility 169 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,679 Speaker 1: I think of people who identify as women in being 170 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: inclusive and in understanding how to embrace non binary and 171 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: trans people as part of the sort of larger effort 172 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: of women for quality, but also you spoke to how 173 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: sport played such a massive role in giving you a 174 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:11,679 Speaker 1: space to feel the most yourself, which was wild because 175 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: it's one of the only truly gendered spaces we have. 176 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: Can you talk about that, because I wonder if part 177 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: of the reason you didn't need to cope using basketball 178 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: as much is because you had decided I know my identity. 179 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: I know who I am, and I don't need to 180 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: look for that in sport the same way as I 181 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: used to. 182 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 3: Oh my god, yes I forget how good of an 183 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 3: interview you are. Yes, yes, I think that was part 184 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 3: of it, Like I just have done so much healing 185 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 3: and i've I don't need it, like you almost answered 186 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 3: the question for me. I all it felt walking away, 187 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 3: It felt like I completed, like I'm doing some handjest 188 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 3: or such a nancy, but like this full circle moment 189 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 3: or how people say I finished the chapter of a book, 190 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 3: or I think I might even finish that entire book, 191 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 3: and I think my life is going to be multiple books. 192 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 3: And it was just like wow, I turned the line 193 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 3: page and it's done, and that's okay. And when you 194 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 3: finish a really good book sometimes like you're sad because 195 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 3: you love the characters and what it made you feel 196 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 3: and how you belong and how you related to it 197 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 3: all the things, but it's okay because you finished the story. 198 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 3: And that's very much how my career feels. Is like 199 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 3: I feel the pain and the ache and I missed 200 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 3: the I already missed like my teammates and those interactions. 201 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 3: But I needed it to belong so much, and I 202 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 3: loved that I belonged, and I loved that sport gave me, 203 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 3: you know, an outlet for my competitiveness, for my fierceness. 204 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 3: It gave me all the coping tools to deal with 205 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 3: family drama. It gave me you know, tours around the world. 206 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 3: It gave me financial stability, and I'm just out of 207 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 3: place now with my family, with my sense of self, 208 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 3: with my healing, Even with all the work I've done 209 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 3: outside of sport, building my own brand and my own legacy, 210 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 3: I would say is like that all happened through sport, 211 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 3: But it's okay for me to like lay down the 212 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 3: basketball now that the playing part. 213 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: Of it right, and you get to be your full 214 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: self everywhere instead of just getting to express parts of 215 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: yourself on the court and relying on that. 216 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 2: Space to be included. 217 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 1: You know, you and I have spoken over a number 218 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: of different years as you've been on this journey of 219 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: identification and self discovery, and you began publicly identifying as 220 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 1: nonsensegender back in twenty fifteen, but it wasn't n till 221 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: December of twenty twenty that you posted Instagram about your 222 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: non binary trans identity, and you wrote quote existing outside 223 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: of the binary for me is freedom. I've learned that 224 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 1: my gender doesn't just fit into these molds that keep 225 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: trying to hold it down and box it in. I 226 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: know that my gender will keep evolving because we change 227 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: and grow and shape shift and expand. I know that, 228 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: as Andrew Gibson says, my pronouns haven't even been invented yet. 229 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: I know that we all have masculinity and femininity inside 230 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: of us, and mind show up equally and holy and fully. 231 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you were worried at that moment that 232 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: identifying as trans and using that word affect your status 233 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: as a player in the w. 234 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 3: I mean, I yeah, I definitely did at times. I 235 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 3: think more so with surgery. I was worried, which came 236 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 3: in the following year. Right of'm like mixing up my 237 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 3: years of February, but a lot of there were a 238 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 3: ton of bills going on at that time, so I 239 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 3: was a little bit worried about always becoming like the 240 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 3: the poster child of like the rights fight. Like I 241 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 3: didn't want to become like the wedge issue, like my story, 242 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 3: my body, my person, becoming like this thing that they 243 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 3: propped up to be like, look see this person, Like, well, 244 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 3: basically what all the Twitter trolls do. I didn't want 245 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 3: that to become like knocking on my front door and 246 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 3: the way that would affect me and my family. But 247 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 3: I really struggled with going through the bubble season where 248 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 3: I knew. So in the bubble season in twenty twenty 249 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 3: was when I knew I didn't want to have breast anymore. 250 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 3: And I was starting to reconcile with like, oh, okay, 251 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 3: I'm definitely like a trans person and like an umbrella term, 252 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 3: like what does that mean, I'm gender nonconforming, I'm gender fluid, 253 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 3: like just all those words that like sometimes help us, 254 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 3: sometimes make it more confusing, but I definitely knew. I 255 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 3: was like, all right, I'm a trans person. I don't 256 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 3: want these breasts anymore. And I really struggled with the 257 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 3: fact like in the bubble that like that wasn't visible 258 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 3: and I was one of the main leaders that was 259 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 3: being seen as like a black queer woman, but wasn't 260 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 3: being seen as like a black queer trans person And 261 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 3: that was a really hard just like mental reckoning for myself. 262 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 3: And I wasn't quite ready or didn't know how to 263 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 3: like say it, like, hey, you guys, you know the 264 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 3: person leading this movement is actually like a trans person. 265 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 3: And that was a weird I don't even know how 266 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 3: to word it, just invisible visibility that was happening for 267 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 3: me internally, and so that December post for me was like, no, 268 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 3: it's time to just say it out loud for myself 269 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 3: and to just put it out into the ether that like, yes, 270 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 3: I'm a trans person, Like let's make it clear. Even 271 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 3: though I still had breast at the time, I was 272 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 3: kind of learning you didn't have to like, you know, 273 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 3: like surgery doesn't make you who you are. It was 274 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 3: me getting to a place where I'm just like, all right, 275 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 3: I need to say this and put a stake in 276 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 3: the ground for myself. 277 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: Well, not long after, it was January of twenty twenty 278 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: one that you publicly announced that you had the gender 279 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: affirming top surgery. Can you take us back at that time, 280 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,719 Speaker 1: how did your team, which was the Liberty, your teammates, 281 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: the league, did anyone react to the to the surgery 282 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:21,599 Speaker 1: and your identity in a way that was unexpected or 283 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: did you feel supported? 284 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 3: I felt super supported and I did a lot of 285 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 3: the internal advocacy work for myself, which I hope, I 286 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 3: actually know will blaze a trail for other people because 287 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 3: it won't be the first time let's say, player X, 288 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 3: you know, goes to Terry Jackson or to Kathy to say, hey, 289 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:40,719 Speaker 3: I'm going to have the surgery or I'm going to 290 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 3: come out as trans like they already have done it. 291 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 3: But I had to do a lot of that labor 292 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 3: and talking with Terry, and she was great, and she 293 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 3: had to get educated in a lot of ways, and 294 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 3: her and I are super close. Terry Jackson, the head 295 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 3: of the union, And then we would get on a 296 00:13:55,559 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 3: phone call with Kathy Engelberg, our commissioner, and talk about like, hey, 297 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 3: I'm worried about I'm having this surgery. I'm worried about 298 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 3: when I announced it because I want to say it 299 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 3: publicly that I'm going to become like this big issue. 300 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 3: So I just named it to them, and Kathy was 301 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 3: super firming and was like, you absolutely belong in our league. 302 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 3: This changes nothing. Like I teared up. I'm getting a 303 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 3: little choked up right now, like thinking back on it. Yeah, 304 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 3: because I just hearing the commissioner of your league like 305 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 3: affirm your identity and who you are and also say 306 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 3: like you still belong here was really important for me. 307 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 3: And so yeah, it was happening internally. And then I said, 308 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 3: I need you guys to put out a statement the 309 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 3: same day I post. So then when people look right 310 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 3: and say, oh, this is okay. This WA player posted 311 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 3: about chance being trans having comp surgery, like then they're 312 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 3: going to live to the league and the Union and 313 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 3: the New York Liberty and be like what does this mean? 314 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 3: And what it means is like what Kathy's statement said, 315 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 3: what everyone's statement said was like, I don't know. It 316 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 3: was great, it was beautiful. It was like we accept Asia, 317 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 3: there's a place for them in this league. Blah blah 318 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 3: blah blah, and like that leadership kind of like it 319 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 3: didn't give room for question for people to turn it 320 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 3: into a debate because the leadership was leading the way 321 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 3: it should. Right when a player like me did come. 322 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: Yep oh, and the Liberty sent out a statement using 323 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: pronouns for all the players. So that wasn't about reacting. 324 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: It was about being proactive to make sure that people 325 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: were dealing with that professionally and respectfully as well. What 326 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: do you think the biggest, most common misconception is about 327 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: you competing as a transperson, something that you want to debunk. 328 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't go on Twitter anymore, but that 329 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 3: one's usually like there too, and I'm like, thanks you really, Cev, Yeah, 330 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 3: that's very affirming. Thank you exactly. I like, yeah, I 331 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 3: love it, thanks, appreciate it. 332 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: Er fight Master on their podcast Jocular, which I'm obsessed with, 333 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: the other day, said they got in a fight with 334 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: a woman like driving that was driving terribly and the 335 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: woman was like, just because you look like a dude 336 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: doesn't mean you could try, and and Er was like, 337 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: thank you, that's so thriving. Uh do you think I mean, 338 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: I think, first of all, great that you're not on 339 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: Twitter listening to that garbage, but also great that you 340 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: can't think of one that people seem to really get 341 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: it and understand. And I think that's part of the 342 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: w being such a progressive league. 343 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 2: Do you think there are. 344 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: Any changes that the league could make that would benefit 345 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: other trans or non binary players in the future as 346 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: the league continues to grow, Well. 347 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 3: I think one the league and internally the un has 348 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 3: done a good job having educational sessions, so I know 349 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 3: that there have been players who've had questions, which there's 350 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 3: no problem with questions or curiosities. There was some players 351 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 3: at AU when we had the year I played at 352 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 3: Athletes Unlimited, we had Chris Moser come and do an 353 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 3: educational series and questions. Players there from the W had 354 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 3: questions and it was interesting because I was able to 355 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 3: like witness them because normally I'm not in the room, 356 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 3: and I specifically when we did the WNBA trainings, I 357 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 3: said like I shouldn't be there because one like people 358 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 3: should feel safe enough to just ask whatever question might 359 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 3: feel silly or dumb or offensive even but if I'm 360 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 3: in the room, I don't feel like people will ask that, right. So, like, 361 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 3: the educational sessions the w's done have been really good, 362 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 3: and I made sure to be out of that space 363 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,239 Speaker 3: so they could have them and have the room to 364 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 3: ask all the things and debunk all the myths and 365 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 3: whatever they need to say. So I think they can 366 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 3: continue to have the educational sessions because that's always been 367 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 3: what our league has done. From a player's perspective, is 368 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 3: like educate ourselves first and know that it's okay to 369 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 3: ask questions and not know and be like, hey, I 370 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 3: hear these some these are some of the rumors, or 371 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 3: these are things I hear about testosterone, or these are 372 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 3: things I hear about trans people. So I think the 373 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 3: second thing the league can do is continue to market, 374 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 3: not continue to shift the way we market our gender 375 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 3: non conforming players. So I think, like there's all these 376 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 3: marketing dollars going towards the league right now, which is 377 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 3: so beautiful, Like the skins campaign is amazing, Like I 378 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 3: love love seeing can bring my teammate in and like 379 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 3: everyone just looks like amazing. I love seeing like these 380 00:17:58,080 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 3: really nailed it. 381 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: It's beautiful but not sexualized and that necessary. 382 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 3: Yes, Like that is so much growth. So like these 383 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 3: high end dollars, like we're at this place in our league. 384 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 3: We're like I'm walking in with these two rookies on 385 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 3: my team and they're wearing like Gucci boots and I'm like, 386 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 3: where did you guys get these? Like you guys got 387 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 3: money now, Like this is amazing, Like you got the 388 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 3: nil deals, You've got multiple pair of these boots, Like 389 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 3: you know you're not on the same rookie salary I 390 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 3: was on And I love that. And I still think 391 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 3: our league also always struggles with not marketing the people 392 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 3: who are masculine, and so you kind of saw the 393 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 3: like Natasha Clouds and Kisston Bells talk about like what 394 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 3: about a Walkser campaign? Like are we yes market our 395 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 3: fem people who are beautiful? But like there's such a 396 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 3: spectrum of gender expression in our league right and we 397 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 3: know gender expression has nothing to do with your sexual 398 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 3: orientation or your gender identity. It is just literally how 399 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 3: you express yourself in your gender. And we have people 400 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 3: who express themselves across the board in a beautiful, like amazing, gorgeous, 401 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 3: even sexy, like competitive, eclectic way. We've seen the tunnel 402 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 3: Fits evolve in such a really. 403 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: Really cool way. 404 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 3: So like, are we marketing? I always I talked about 405 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 3: Simone Augustus on that panel, like marketing the Simone Augustus 406 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 3: of our era? Like are we learning? Is the WNBA 407 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 3: learning how they missed out on the Simone? So like 408 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 3: is Courtney Williams getting the marketing deals she should get? Now? 409 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 3: Are we thinking of Natasha cloud And. 410 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: How much is that the league versus the sponsors? And 411 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: how do you get sponsors to step up and be 412 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: in a space and understand that there's this big market 413 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: that's also looking to be like, to be seen, to 414 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 1: be represented. Yes, we're gonna take a quick break plenty 415 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: more from Lesia Clarendon right after this. For decades there 416 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: were trans folks competing in sports and they abided by 417 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: all the different rules and policies across different levels and 418 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: age groups and states. There were really no issues or controversies. 419 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: And then in recent years trans participation started to be 420 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: politicized and laws were added to exclude athletes or public shaming, 421 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: you know, forfeiting matches, lawsuits, all this stuff, and this 422 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: push really it relies on perpetuating a lie that trans 423 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: athletes are dominant and dangerous, that it's unfair, that it's 424 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: threatening to women's sports, which is particularly frustrating when it's 425 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: people saying that who could not give a shit about 426 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: any other aspect of women's sports that needs things like 427 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: resources and safety and everything else. Yeah, So, how do 428 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: we get people to see past that propaganda and fear 429 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: mongering to the reality of the situation, which in some 430 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: cases is one trans female athlete in an entire state 431 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,479 Speaker 1: that they are making a law around, for in Utah, 432 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: that they are making a law around only one of 433 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: them participating in women's sports, Like. 434 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 2: How do how do we you're so smart? 435 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: How do we get people to stop believing this garbage? 436 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 3: I know? 437 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: I mean. 438 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 3: I think you have to ask to the question of 439 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 3: the heart of like where the people are coming from? 440 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 3: Do they want to be educated on this topic? Like 441 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 3: education is one I think is really important. There's a 442 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 3: lot of disinformation out there, which different from misinformation right, 443 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 3: like people are like intentionally maliciously. The right is like 444 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 3: putting out information to make you feel like trans people 445 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 3: are taking over the sport and so kind of debunking now, 446 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 3: which I know there's orgs like the Women's Sports Foundation, 447 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 3: and there's people like Chris Moser and a lot of 448 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 3: other trans athletes who do do a ton of like 449 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 3: educational videos when topics come up. So I mean, some 450 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 3: ways I'm at a loss for words because I'm like, 451 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 3: it's just not frankly true. And then I love the 452 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 3: story of myself. That's like, I'm five foot nine, I've 453 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 3: played in the WMA for ten years. I came out 454 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 3: as trans in twenty one. I've played three more seasons 455 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 3: and it's like, you know, I had a really solid 456 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 3: career before I came out as trans. I was already 457 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 3: a All Star, Like I didn't start dunking all of 458 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 3: a sudden. That might have been cool. You know, it 459 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 3: kind of hurts your hands when you do, Like it's like, yeah, 460 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 3: we don't become superhuman. And so I think my question 461 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 3: is always at the heart of like we know these 462 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 3: people exist, and one is like starting with our humanity, 463 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 3: like do you When I'm in a conversation with the person, 464 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 3: it's like do you even believe I should exist? And 465 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 3: it's answers no, And I'm like okay, so like have 466 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 3: a good day because I'm not going to debate or 467 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 3: talk to you about it if you believe and no 468 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 3: chance people are real and you're just like wait, okay, 469 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 3: I keep hearing this stuff. Like then that's where like 470 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 3: we can have the conversation when we can talk about 471 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 3: more of the education and talk about the misinformation and 472 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 3: disinformation out there. But like, frankly, if you don't believe 473 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 3: like trans people or people should have a right to 474 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 3: abortion or like to my body, then I'm like you right, 475 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 3: Like we're trying to put these people out and like 476 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 3: take our country back. 477 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: And that's yeah, it's hard to it's hard to get 478 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,360 Speaker 1: anywhere if you can't start with the basic premise of. 479 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 2: Like respect, right, yes, respect for who people are. 480 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. Pabulatory did a really fantastic interview actually with the 481 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: one trans female athlete in Ohio that they were making 482 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: laws that were. 483 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 2: Going to affect just her. 484 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: So I highly recommend people go find that episode. But 485 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,360 Speaker 1: I think giving specifics and giving real people behind these 486 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: stories is one place to start. But yeah, if anyone 487 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: has brilliant ideas on how to get people to stop 488 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: repeating the lies and the fear mongering that's behind all this, 489 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 1: that would be great. And I'm not speaking to the politicians. 490 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: I think it's quite clear that their intent is to 491 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 1: put women in their place and to try to get 492 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: back to some sort of Christo fascist idea of what 493 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: people's lives should look like and force them into those binaries. 494 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 2: But I mean regular. 495 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: People might still be able to be suited into understanding 496 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: the nuances of the situation. Okay, I want to talk 497 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: about your WNB experience, because we mentioned that you played 498 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: for half the league, which means you've got a lot 499 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: of perspective to offer. Can you tell like some of 500 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: the biggest differences among the many franchises you played for. 501 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: Is there something that stands out to you about culture 502 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: or resources, or attitude or anything that's like, you know, 503 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: You've been to all these places and here's what I 504 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: came away with. 505 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 3: So I've played for all three ownership models, which is 506 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 3: really fascinating. So we have the casino ownership model, which 507 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,719 Speaker 3: is like Vegas and Connecticut, so I played for Connecticut. 508 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 3: We have the independent ownership model with Kelly Loffler in Atlanta. 509 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 3: We have and I played for the NBA affiliated at Indiana, 510 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,199 Speaker 3: which is where I was drafted, and also Minnesota, so 511 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 3: in New York and so a lot of the I 512 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 3: would say NBA and casino were the best resource, which 513 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 3: makes sense because independent ownership was a lot tougher. I 514 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 3: think the Seattle Storm have done a good job of 515 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 3: that for years as independent owned owned teams, But playing 516 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 3: in Indiana where I was drafted, where we just had 517 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 3: a practice court and there was so much equality from 518 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 3: the beginning of how we were treated. I was at 519 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 3: New York at the tail end of just when they 520 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 3: finished building that locker, when I was done playing for 521 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,959 Speaker 3: that team, and just saw like the level of like 522 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 3: wealth and money and resources that was being poured into 523 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 3: like the women's side of the game. And so I've 524 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 3: also played for a decade, so just seeing how from 525 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 3: twenty thirteen to twenty or the money's changed and the 526 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 3: investment has changed has been really fascinating. The Minnesota Links, 527 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 3: we're one of my favorite teams to play for because 528 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 3: they have a culture of winning and like Cheryl Reeve 529 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 3: is a coach that like is gonna demand when you 530 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 3: step on the court that there's a level to which 531 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 3: you play with. And I think you're seeing that in 532 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 3: the finals right now, Like you and I remember stepping 533 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 3: on her core and there's like a little bit of fear. 534 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 3: You're just like, oh shit, like a fight, Like you're 535 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 3: gonna get your ass handed to you if you step 536 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 3: on that core. And it's very reminiscent to me of 537 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 3: Lynn Dunn, and that's who coached me my rookie year 538 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 3: and she was so hard on me. And I think 539 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 3: like Lynda and Stephanie White and Cheryl Reeve are like 540 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 3: three of the best coaches that I've ever played for. 541 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 3: And it's their attention to detail, their ability to build 542 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 3: relationships with players, and there are standards that they set 543 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 3: across the board. They don't care who you are, like 544 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 3: Lyn dun did not care if it was Tamika Catchings 545 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,959 Speaker 3: or Leisah Clarendon. Cheryl Reeve does not care if it's 546 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 3: an a Fisa Collier or her rookie Peeley, Like she's 547 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 3: gonna hold them to the exact same standard of you 548 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 3: when you're out here, like you better when you step 549 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,360 Speaker 3: between these lines, you better show the up or get 550 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 3: off my court. Like I like when that had said that, 551 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 3: when there's times where if you messed up my rookie year, 552 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 3: there was no time to keep going over things, she 553 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 3: would literally say get off the court next, and then 554 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 3: I would be like, oh my god, like, don't cry, 555 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 3: don't try, don't like that stuff off, Oh my god. 556 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 2: Yep, set the expectation for sure. 557 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: We have to take another break. The conclusion of my 558 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: conversation with Lee coming up. You mentioned that you were 559 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: leaving the Liberty right when they were building the locker room, 560 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: and obviously the Liberty has changed a ton in recent years, 561 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: but it felt like there was a strange ending for you. 562 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: You had played a lot of minutes, you had been 563 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: a big participant, and then when the Liberty waived you 564 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: you were playing. You know you'd played like three minutes 565 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: in that first couple of games. It felt like there 566 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 1: was some either unfinished business or some sadness around that 567 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: that felt like bigger than just the general sadness of 568 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 1: being waved. 569 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 2: Can you speak to that. 570 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 3: It's something I might write in the book one day. 571 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 3: It might just be something I let go. But there 572 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 3: was definitely some internal what's the word I'm looking for, 573 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 3: like internal issues that I was having with the New 574 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 3: York Liberty. And it's no shocker that I was waved, 575 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 3: or it should be a shock when I was on 576 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 3: a guaranteed contract. I played great for them in the 577 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 3: bubble season as a leader, I signed it to your deal, 578 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 3: and then I'm waived that season after clearly being squashed 579 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 3: to the end of the bench. So I think you 580 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 3: can put some of the pieces together. I'm not ready 581 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 3: to talk about it publicly, and it might be something 582 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 3: I write about one day, but it definitely was like 583 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 3: it ended with a dirty, nasty taste in my mouth 584 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 3: and was not treated very well, specifically that by the 585 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 3: basketball and GM side of it. The front office of 586 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 3: the New York Liberty is still phenomenal. I think Sandy's 587 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 3: phenomenal as a coach there. They've cleared out the house there. 588 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 3: Kia Clark's amazing. I still keep in touch with quite 589 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 3: a few people at the New York Liberty, but it 590 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 3: was a very specific aspect of it. On the basketball side. 591 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 2: I'm sorry to hear that. 592 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: I know you mentioned how important it was for Kathy 593 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: Engelbert to affirm you and your identity when you announce 594 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: you had top surgery. That feels like a contrast a 595 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 1: little bit to what we've seen with players discussing receiving 596 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 1: the hateful and racist messages this season. Kathy sort of 597 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: dropped the ball when asked about that topic on a 598 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: CNBC show. And I know people aren't monolists. Kathy can 599 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: do a lot of great things. Then also sort of 600 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 1: struggle to answer or speak to some of these issues 601 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 1: that players are talking about. Now, Why do you think 602 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: there was a disconnect on that issue though, between what 603 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: the players were experience and maybe Kathy was either aware 604 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: of or able to speak to. 605 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 3: I still think in this moment in time, it's much 606 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 3: easier now to talk about LGBT inclusion than to talk 607 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 3: about racism. Hands down, So I think it's Kathy struggling 608 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 3: with and are holy grappling with like Caitlyn Clark's coming 609 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 3: into the league, the fan base, and how do we 610 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 3: talk about this nuanced conversation of race and like all 611 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 3: of these things, Like the podcast could be just on 612 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 3: this topic alone, Like we could start one just to 613 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 3: like get into all of these topics. So I think 614 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 3: that's just Kathy struggling, frankly as a white woman to 615 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 3: talk about race, and maybe some fear about the backlash 616 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 3: of the fan base or Caitlyn's you know, fan base 617 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 3: from Iowa. So I'm not sure there, but I know 618 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 3: I've seen the ways that people will step up for 619 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 3: queerness but really still struggle with blackness. And that's again 620 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 3: where someone like me sets up the intersections of those 621 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 3: identities and it's sucks to see. And I think it's 622 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 3: just the players definitely expected more from her, But I 623 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 3: think it's that just not being ready or willing or 624 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 3: also equipped to talk about racism in a way of 625 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 3: like I basically majored in sociology at CAW and people 626 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 3: always like, how are you. 627 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 2: Going to use that? 628 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 3: And it's like that's literally what my career has come 629 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 3: to me. And so like when you're looking at the 630 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 3: wa covering it. It's like you do almost need like 631 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 3: to at least take a class on intersectionality because there's 632 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 3: so many factors happening. It's not as easy to just 633 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 3: show up and cover it. Like a men's hockey league. Right, 634 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 3: you maybe have some international like topics that we talk about, 635 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 3: but it's not you're not just talking about predominantly mostly 636 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 3: a bunch of white guys, a bunch of white dis guys, right, 637 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 3: and you so like when you look at our league 638 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 3: and you're talking about race and gender and sexuality. Right, 639 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 3: and at a moment in time when an election is 640 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 3: coming and a star player who is white, who people 641 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 3: are saying has basically saved our league, which we know 642 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 3: is not true, which is also coming out of time 643 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 3: where the growth of our league has been like bursting 644 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 3: at the seams. And also like the players are so 645 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 3: damn excited for our young players to come in. Like 646 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 3: once a player comes into our league, like there ares 647 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 3: that's what our league does. It's like you're a part 648 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 3: of us now, so we're rallying up everybody to be good, 649 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 3: Like it doesn't matter who you are, Angel Caitlin, Like 650 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 3: in all the rookies, we're like, you're ours and now 651 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 3: you're a part of a legacy that says you speak 652 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 3: up for social justice, right like, we don't just ignore 653 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 3: these issues. And so I think we're seeing some of 654 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 3: that all swirly in the players and in the zyguy 655 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 3: absolutely this season. Yeah, And I would apposed Jathy could 656 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 3: have done a better job of putting a steak in 657 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 3: the ground. 658 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree, And I think in the position 659 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: that she's in, it's necessary to do the work to 660 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: be able to do that, you know, in a very 661 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: honest moment. I'll tell you a bunch of years ago, 662 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: I remember I was talking to my buddy Scoop Jackson, 663 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: who's a longtime basketball writer ESPN guy, and I was 664 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: telling him that someone had messaged me and said, how 665 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: come you wear LGBTQ plus ally shirts like love Winds 666 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: and Rainbow stuff and you'll you never wear anything for 667 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: like Black History Month? And I said, I feel like 668 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: I would be like made fun of or accused of appropriating, 669 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: or it doesn't feel comfortable in the same way to 670 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 1: be an ally to that group. But I don't know 671 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: why I am an ally, but I don't It doesn't 672 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: feel the same, and I remember talking to Scoop about 673 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: it and saying, why does it feel like allyship for 674 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: LGBTQIA plus comes easily and is an allyship sometimes in 675 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: terms of race is so much more complicated and fraught. 676 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: And one of the things he said that was sort 677 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: of a wake up for me and for a lot 678 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: of other white women and white people, I think, is 679 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: that there's an expectation of a certain amount of work 680 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: having been done that oftentimes isn't so if you come 681 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: to the space and hope that they'll be happy that 682 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: you're an ally, but you don't show that you really 683 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: get it, there's a frustration there. 684 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 2: Of how are we still here? 685 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: And I felt then years later in twenty twenty, when 686 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: everything happened with George Floyd, that was writ large right. 687 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: It was yeah, we've been saying this, and yeah, you 688 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: don't get to just read white fragility now and then 689 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: be like, oh, got it, My bad. You should have 690 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: been here, you should have known this, you should have 691 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: asked about this, this should have mattered to you before now. 692 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: And I think for a lot of white people who 693 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: think they're doing their best like that sucks to feel like, oh, 694 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: I haven't been. 695 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 2: Doing my best. 696 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: There's a lot more I should have done that I 697 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: think doesn't happen quite as much in the queer community 698 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: right And it's not a simple explanation, but I love 699 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: that you said that, and I do think that's maybe 700 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: why Kathy felt like this is easy breezy to say 701 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: you're included and we love you, and struggles a little 702 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: bit to speak to the nuance of the race issues 703 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: that the league is dealing with. There is so much 704 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: intersectionality that that has dominated so much of the conversation 705 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: around the league this year, and it's necessary and helpful 706 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: and it's moving us forward, but it also at times 707 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: has kept us from like straight up talking about basketball. 708 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 2: Which has been amazing. 709 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: I do want to make sure we talk about the 710 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: WNBA Finals while you're here, too, because you have been 711 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: playing in these games against these teams and players as 712 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: recently as just a couple of weeks ago, so you 713 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: are uniquely positioned to talk to us about some of this. 714 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: And you mentioned you played for Cheryl Reeve game one 715 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: and two. The links were playing catchup almost from the jump. 716 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: If you're in the huddle Wednesday, what do you think, 717 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: Coach Reeve is telling her team before tip off about 718 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: not allowing the Liberty to get off to a hot 719 00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: start in Game three and start that again. 720 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 3: Oh, they've watched a Toten film on why they had 721 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 3: the bad starts and what they did, so they better 722 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,799 Speaker 3: come out of the cannon, like protecting home court. So 723 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 3: I know she's you know, probably already used a lot 724 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 3: of the cuss words, but she's also will building new ones. 725 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 3: Is like let's go, like, we're not playing around. We're 726 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 3: at home now, like we need to handle business, you know. 727 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 3: And the Links usually are a team that gets out 728 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 3: to good starts, so it was a little shocking to 729 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 3: see how much New York jumped on them. But New 730 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 3: York's at home, so like that was to be expected, 731 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 3: and I wasn't expecting the seventeen point ly, But she's 732 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 3: definitely telling them like pick it the fuck up, or 733 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 3: you're coming out or calling time out, like we can't 734 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 3: we can't keep doing that and expect to win the championship, 735 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 3: right because we're playing a really good team. 736 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: You keep mentioning that the series has shifts that will 737 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: make a big difference. We're going to be in Minneapolis 738 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: at the Target Center for Games three and four. What's 739 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: the biggest difference you see with the Links now getting 740 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 1: to play on home court. 741 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 3: I mean getting that home court advantage, in the crowd 742 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 3: behind you, sleeping in your own bed, all the things 743 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 3: we know about the comforts of being home. That offers 744 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 3: you that the crowd is behind you, you have a 745 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 3: little more slag in your step when you're in your 746 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 3: own space, like these are two of the best fan 747 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 3: bases in the league. Hands down. Target Center is an 748 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 3: amazing place to play, So I think that's a big one. 749 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 3: It also puts the liberty of like when you're playing 750 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 3: against a home crowd, like silencing them is the best 751 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 3: feeling ever. So I'm curious to see how I think 752 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 3: the liberty are going to come out. They've got to 753 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 3: be thinking still game three, right, Like we have to 754 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 3: steal one in order to get back to Barclays, and 755 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 3: so their whole mission is like game three is ours. 756 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 3: They stole the first one at our house, we got 757 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 3: to still the first one at their house. 758 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,439 Speaker 1: I was listening to a Touch More with Sue Birt 759 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: and Meghan Rappino, great podcasts, and they were talking about 760 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: how lucky we all are to be watching Ifisa Collier 761 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: and Brianna Stewart and Asia Wilson and all these players 762 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,760 Speaker 1: at the same time. They're all sort of peaking around 763 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: the same time, and there hasn't really been that moment 764 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 1: in w's history before. You had some folks like Maya 765 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: Moore and d T at the same time, but they 766 00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,359 Speaker 1: were six or seven years between those two. 767 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,879 Speaker 2: These are some really really. 768 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: Spectacular players, all playing at the top of their game 769 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 1: around the same time. What's been your reaction to playing 770 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,720 Speaker 1: against people like Brianna and Fi and Asia and also 771 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: just watching them from afar? 772 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 3: Oh. My reaction to playing against them is fuck, yeah, 773 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 3: it's fine, right, Like it's so much fun. Sometimes, Like 774 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 3: something happened in the game yesterday and I was like, 775 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 3: yepes do we did that to me? Like it's like 776 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 3: you're trying to make an entry pass from the wing 777 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 3: and you're like I could totally make this, and Stewey 778 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 3: just like jumps up and steals it, and you're like 779 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 3: what the fuck, Like you're so long, like how did 780 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,879 Speaker 3: you do that? Like so kind of reminiscing, I'm like, yep, 781 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 3: I've been there, Like sorry to teach them, even a 782 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 3: Courtney whoever turned it over seeing Asia just as like 783 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 3: we're growing up or we're getting to watch yeah, like 784 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 3: the Mayas, the Michael Jordan's, like the level of talent 785 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 3: and the way what I love is the way everyone 786 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 3: knows how good these players are and they're scheming to 787 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 3: stop them and yet they can't stop them. Like that's 788 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 3: the greatness we're getting to watch. And I didn't know, honestly, 789 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 3: Nefisa was gonna be that good, Like she was drafted 790 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,359 Speaker 3: to Minnesota. I played with her and Sil for one year, 791 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 3: so Sil was more the main player. Fee was solid. 792 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 3: She wasn't putting the ball on the floor quite as well. 793 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 3: Her three wasn't as consistent. She hadn't yet perfected that 794 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:17,919 Speaker 3: turnaround off of one foot and so. 795 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 2: The feet away, the feed away what I call it 796 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 2: the feet away jumper. So watching Fee. 797 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,359 Speaker 3: Like just develop into like an MVP candidate has made 798 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 3: me so proud and so happy for her because she's 799 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 3: a phenomenal human being and just like, oh, you're you're 800 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 3: like MVP good, Like I didn't know you were going 801 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 3: to be that good. Like when Soil left, it was like, oh, 802 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 3: Sophia was like, oh, y'all didn't know, I'm letting you know. 803 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 3: And then I played with John Quell at Connecticut and 804 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 3: just her ability to shoot the three, her ability to 805 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,359 Speaker 3: get inside her length. And so the thing I've been 806 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 3: saying when I watched like now that I can just 807 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 3: be a fan too, is I'm like, it's not fair. 808 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 3: Like I literally just keep saying it's not fair. Are 809 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 3: you guys watching this? Like my wife's get tired in there? 810 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 3: I'm like, Stewie is the five right now, she just 811 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 3: brought the ball of the This is not fair. 812 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: That's all I think about is like when I was 813 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: in high school, I was six feet tall and I 814 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: was a center. Yes, like sometimes I was a power 815 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: forward in AAU, I was a forward, but like I 816 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: would right now, I would be a point guard. 817 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 2: I would have to have insane ball handling skills. And 818 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 2: Sy're like, what. 819 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 3: No, Yes, Like that's the era why you've been doing this. 820 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: Yes, it's like the unicorn era of the NBA has 821 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,399 Speaker 1: hit the w NBA full force right now and it's 822 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: all in unicorns. 823 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,879 Speaker 3: Aye Wilson is coming off of staggers and like, what no, 824 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 3: And you don't do that, like stay down there so 825 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 3: we can figure out how to double team you and 826 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 3: do something. She's like, no, I'm coming on with staggers. 827 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 3: Now I put the ball on the floor. Like these 828 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 3: big people are. 829 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: Like position, let's basketball though, that's my favorite. That's that's 830 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: I love watching bigs that can move and shoot and 831 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: handle the ball, like, oh my god. 832 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 2: It's just it's just the series has been so. 833 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 1: Fun because there are so many players like that and 834 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: it's so cool to watch. And also I am not 835 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: at all wanting to be a coach in this series. 836 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,879 Speaker 1: No all how to top post unicorns. 837 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,399 Speaker 3: It's fun. It's been really interesting on the defensive side, 838 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,800 Speaker 3: like on Minnesota has gone to their really small lineup 839 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 3: to counter because like Sabrina is just getting threes in 840 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 3: transition and it's like, I played it. I know it's like, okay, 841 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 3: guard your matchup, but what do you do when Stewie 842 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 3: brings the ball down and the point guard goes to 843 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 3: stop Stewie because that's our job. But then he's a 844 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 3: post player gonna get out to Sabrina on the wing 845 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 3: in time? Like no, so yeah, that's what the link said. 846 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 3: So I'm like, let's go small so we can at 847 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,720 Speaker 3: least keep a body on a body so fun. 848 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: We're so looking forward to Game three. It's going to 849 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: be a blast. I've kept you too long. Thank you 850 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: so much for coming on. I know you said you 851 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: don't want people to ask you what's next, so I won't. 852 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: I'll just say that you are one of the most 853 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: thoughtful and brilliant people I know, so I'm dying to 854 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 1: see where you're going to direct that brain power and 855 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: that influence and all of that. 856 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 2: So let us know when you figure it out. 857 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 3: I will give us a call. 858 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 2: We'll have you back. 859 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 3: Thank you. 860 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 1: We hope you love that conversation with Lesia Clarendon as 861 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: much as we did. Tomorrow we'll be revisiting another favorite 862 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: convo from twenty twenty four, this one with soccer stars 863 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: and media moguls Sam Muis and Becky Sowerbrun See you then, 864 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,240 Speaker 1: Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports 865 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 1: production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You 866 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 867 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network, 868 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive 869 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,240 Speaker 1: producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. 870 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: Our editors are Emily Rudder, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch and 871 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: Lindsay Cradowell. Production assistants from Lucy Jones and I'm Your 872 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: Host Sarah Spain