WEBVTT - It's OK to Cry at Work — Sometimes 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.840 So I have a confession to make. I've cried at work. 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:08.320 I've definitely cried at work, and that is totally fine. Fine, 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:11.400 you guys, we are here to break down the taboo 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:27.200 of tears in the office. This is game plan. Hi. 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:30.960 I'm Rebecca Greenfield and I'm Francesco Leavie, and this week 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.920 we're talking about that big no no of crying at work. Yeah, 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:37.559 it's kind of a known thing that you probably shouldn't 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:40.240 get teary eyed in the office. Yeah. For a story 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:44.280 I'm working on, I asked career experts about this phenomenon 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:48.200 and they specifically tell women and men too that under 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:52.599 no circumstances should you show extreme emotions in the workplace, 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:56.400 especially of the crying variant. So, yeah, everybody knows you're 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:58.160 not supposed to cry at the office. But let's like 0:00:58.360 --> 0:00:59.840 back up and look at that a little bit. What 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:02.920 is so bad about crying? Why is it a taboo? Well, 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:05.200 there's a lot of research that shows that people judge you, 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:07.880 as we've shown on our show for almost everything, you 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.600 get judged in the workplace, and when it comes to crying, 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:14.920 it makes you look weak and too emotional for the job, 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.800 especially for women. And that's that's not something that's not 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:20.039 a sign of leadership. And I think it just makes 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.000 other people uncomfortable. So it's like the real reason you 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:25.320 shouldn't cry at work, it has more to do with 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.480 other people than with you. But the thing is, the 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:31.160 more we've talked to people, the more we realize that 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:35.080 almost everybody has a crying story somewhere in their work history. 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:37.360 And in fact, we asked some of our co workers 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:39.440 here at Bloomberg to share with us some of their 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:45.240 crying stories, and here's what they had to say. I 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:49.120 once cried at work because one of my former bosses 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:53.120 was a big, mean baby. I've never cried at work 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:56.360 because I don't think I have sufficient access to my emotions, 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.880 and also because I think I probably cried it works 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.840 so many times on the inside that it became unnecessary 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:06.880 to actually cry on the outside. I cried at work 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:14.560 because of unexpectedly condescending and sexist advice or feedback from 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:21.040 a female manager. I have never cried at work because 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:24.080 I don't think I've had an occasion to cry at work. 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:27.800 Although I cry all the time. I'm a big crier. 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:33.040 I cry at home. My music makes me cry. I 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:37.560 have never cried at work because, um, I don't know. 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:41.400 I kind of feel like you shouldn't. People shouldn't cry publicly. 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:45.680 I I personally view it as a sign of weakness. 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:51.320 But I have cried at work about personal matters. Uh. 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.200 When I told my boss about my divorce, I cried. 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.639 And I've learned about the death of my brother in 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:59.200 law at work, and I also cried in a stairwell. 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:03.520 Then I kind of sat at my desk for a while, 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:10.680 but I was kind of shaking with rage. Happy songs 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.160 make me cry, Sad songs make me cry. I almost 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:15.600 always cry at a movie, but for some reason, it 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.400 just hasn't happened at work, or if it has happened, 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:23.519 I've repressed the memory. So I had my little cry. 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.280 I came back, sat down, said nothing, and he came 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:28.880 up and he said, you know, I'm really sorry. I 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:35.040 was over the line. I apologize. If you're not human 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:36.800 at work, you've got the wrong idea about work. I 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.080 don't think it should be excessive, but I think it's 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:42.000 sort of perfectly natural in the right circumstances, in the 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:52.600 right seting. So I really loved that clip, and I 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:57.000 especially related to the person who talked about crying because 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:00.000 of personal reasons. So they're pretty intense things like a divorce, 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:03.000 wars um or a death in the family. But that's 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:05.680 definitely why I cry at work. Yeah, you were telling 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:08.240 me that you're more of a like cry at work 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:12.560 over something personal that happened, whereas I can only remember 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:14.760 one incidance a few years ago where I cried for 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:17.279 a reason like that. More commonly, when I've cried at work, 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:20.200 it's been because, like I'm having a really intense conversation 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:22.600 about work and something really gets to me. Yeah. So, 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:25.400 I mean, people cry at the office for various reasons, 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:28.960 and it turns out that not only is this happening 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.040 so this is a reality that we need to deal with, 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:35.159 but also it could be good for you. Yeah, there's 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:38.880 science that shows that when you start crying, you stimulate 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:43.560 certain brain chemicals that then rebalance the equilibrium in your mind, 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.320 so you actually feel better after you've cried. That makes 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:48.320 sense to me, Right, It's kind of like when your 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:50.360 nausea is on't either up you feel better, have to 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:52.840 goin to let it out. Um, And this is not 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.880 We're not saying that you should be crying every single 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.120 day at work. If that's happening, that's probably a sign 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.320 that there something else going on. Yeah, that's a red flag. 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:04.560 But what we're saying is that one it happens, and 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.360 that too, maybe it's more than okay that it happens, 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:09.920 and this advice that you shouldn't do it doesn't address 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.080 that at all, Right, And because it happens, we need 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.080 maybe less career advice about how bad it is to 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.080 cry at work and more advice about what you should 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:21.599 do once you've started crying, and to figure out what 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:25.040 some of that advice might be. Our guests today are 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:29.440 crying experts. Susan Orlean and Sarah Thier host the podcast 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:32.640 cry Babies, where they ask people about what movies, music, 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:45.000 and TV shows make them cry. So thanks for coming on, pleasure, 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:50.960 So why don't we start with why a show about crying? Well? 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:56.000 Why not? Is our reaction? I guess well, Sarah can 0:05:56.040 --> 0:06:00.960 tell um specifically where the idea original with her. But 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:05.359 Sarah came to me and said are you into crying? 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:09.280 Which I will never forget as a question kept me 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.279 a little bit in suspense, like what what's the next 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:16.160 part of this conversation? Um? And I love the idea 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:23.040 that we were glimpsing into people's um what was an 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.640 emotional release for people, And the range of things that 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:30.920 people have brought to the show have been so broad 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:35.680 and so interesting and and it's really been it's like 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:39.520 a portal into much more, obviously than just it's not 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.559 surprising how people, even people who are a little guests 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:44.680 we've had who are like, I never cry, then of 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.440 course they end up having more crying kings than any 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:50.640 other guests. But a couple of especially guys, tend to 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:52.360 do that, like I'm not much of a crier, but 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.040 oh my god, I really lost it at this concert, 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:57.919 and then they'll have this beautiful story about it. I 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:01.000 feel like it it taps into um something that they 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:03.679 didn't even know about themselves in a way, or maybe 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:06.680 weren't willing to admit, which is sort of delicious for us. 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:13.440 Have you noticed any common themes that run through these stories? Oh? Yes, yes, yes, 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.840 And and that has been really interesting. As we've done 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:20.800 the show for a fairly long time now, we've got 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:27.480 a lot of anecdotal evidence of what really pushes people's buttons. 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:31.640 Number One Pixar Movies. Yeah, there's no question is yeah, 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.880 Pixar is the number one, like just genre c hue. 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:40.640 But the scene that thematic cues are uh well, one 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:44.600 major one is sense of longing and the path not taken, 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:50.960 wistfulness that really gets people, and um, the hero's journey, 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:55.400 people who go beyond themselves in life and sacrifice a 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:59.360 great deal witnessing that makes people cry as well in art, 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:06.080 and there of course lots of parent child m issues. Interestingly, 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:10.960 when when we started the show, I assumed lots of 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:16.080 people would come with UM romantic heartbreak as the most 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:24.080 typical umque for crying, and that has been surprisingly underrepresented. 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:30.640 It's it really is much more um these themes of 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:38.080 of wistfulness and looking at a past that you can 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:44.440 no longer reclaim. It's a different kind of emotion. It's 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:50.160 more introspective. They're not the typical heartbreak my my girlfriend 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.719 left me, my husband, you know, walked down. I mean, 0:08:54.520 --> 0:09:00.160 not the stuff of country music songs, not the broken heart, 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.240 as much as it is something deeper. Hear you guys 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.960 talk about what makes people cry. It's not exactly the 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.280 same reasons we cry at work. I think when I 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:12.480 think about crying at work, it's kind of like a 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:15.839 shock to your system or a frustration like a blow 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:21.720 to your ego. Um, have you guys cried at work? Yes? Yes, yes, 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:27.360 well you know it's um. I was. I was enjoying 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:33.360 looking back on my tears at work because for many 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.800 years I've worked at home alone, and you know, I 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:40.640 certainly cry, but when that's because I just am not 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:44.520 getting work done, but no one's around to appreciate your yeah, 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:48.920 and so it's like not crying. Um. But I My 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:52.880 most epic cry at work was I had a job 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.959 shortly after I got out of college, working at a 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:59.240 radio station. I hated the job, and I did probably 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:03.720 a really off job at my job because I didn't 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:07.240 like it. And one day I was called in by 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:12.600 the general manager and basically basically he fired me. And 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:18.360 I was so irate and I was humiliated, but I 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:22.480 was also really angry because I thought, I hate this job. 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:26.920 It's not the job that you presented it as being. 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.480 And I know I'm doing a bad job, but it's 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.240 a bad job, and it's it's not what I thought 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:37.760 I was signing up for and against what I don't 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:40.680 even think I thought it through. But I started crying, 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:44.760 and it was tears of both God, damnit it, I 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:47.920 don't want to be fired, but also you can't do 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:53.080 this to me. This is not right. And I didn't 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.079 give it a second thought about is this a good 0:10:56.160 --> 0:11:00.280 or bad move. It was all in the moment, meant 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:04.120 just pure because I was actually shocked that I got fired, 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:09.080 and I just stood my ground and said, hey, this 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:10.880 job is not what you told me I was gonna 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.720 be doing, and I'm really unhappy and I'm and you know, 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:17.720 went on and the tears are just gushing. Really, so 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:21.440 you didn't feel any like you didn't. You didn't feel 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:23.560 a shame or like try to curb it. You just 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.559 went with it, you know. I was. I was not thinking. 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:31.120 I didn't have that overlay of thinking, Okay, this isn't good. 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:34.560 I should dial it back and be calm. I just 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:38.560 I was caught so off guard, and I had really 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:42.320 been this had been brewing because I really was not 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:46.040 happy in the job, and it really had been pitched 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:50.040 to me as something very different. So it was pure, 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:57.640 unfiltered reaction. And in a way, because it was so authentic, 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:01.640 I think I caught this guy completely off guard. When 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:04.640 I finally caught my breath, he sat there for a 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:08.000 minute and then he said, all right, well, why don't 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:16.400 we try to read think this job and make it work. 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:21.160 So I basically talked him cried him out of firing me. 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:26.040 But it worked. Yeah, I mean more than him going okay, okay, 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.480 stop crying. You can have your job. I've done that 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:34.600 with a speeding ticket before, exactly, but I tried with 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:37.920 this meeting ticket. It didn't work. Um, I think that 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.679 he he said, all right, I I understand what you're saying, 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.840 and let's try to change this job and make it work. 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:49.720 And I was astonished. I wouldn't say that. I then thought, good, 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.439 anytime things aren't going my way, I'm just going to 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:57.280 start crying. I didn't put this in my tool kit 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.320 as a thing to do in the future when I 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.560 was frustrated, but I'll never forget it because it was. 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:08.200 It was such a a surprise ending. I think also 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.280 the lesson of your story is like, crying can work, 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:16.520 but it has to be authentic, right, and I I 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:21.320 have to really emphasize this. This is was. It wasn't 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:25.120 where I suddenly thought, well if I start to cry, 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:29.440 he'll he'll back off. I think it was. It was 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.480 so real, and he sensed that it was real, that 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:35.720 it was me just being so frustrated and feeling like 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.320 I hadn't been able to express this, and also that 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.920 I was right. They had hired me to do something 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:46.280 that I wasn't really being used to do and it 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:50.839 felt bad. So you want to hear my crying story. Yes, 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:54.280 very different from Susan. It's completely different from Susan's. I 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:59.240 was doing a play at Lincoln Center UM with David 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:01.760 and Amy Sadara Us and I played like a cricket 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.000 and an old lady and we all played multiple characters 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:07.880 in it, and I was so proud of my work 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:11.600 in it, and uh we did. We had our opening night. 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:13.439 It was part of Lincoln Center Festival, was back in 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.440 the nineties. And we had our opening night and it 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:20.200 went great. And then the next day all the reviews 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:22.760 came out and they were all good. But in the 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:25.480 New York Times review, they didn't say anything bad about me. 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:30.240 They just didn't say anything about me. And I came 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:32.720 to the theater that night and I was just like, 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:36.120 everybody was like hi in that and you know that 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:38.680 kind of sympathy thing. I can trigger you to cry 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.480 the minute somebody is doing something that feels like sympathy, 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:46.360 or that anybody trying to give you a hug. In 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:50.520 one of those moments, everybody was like hey, And it 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:54.800 was a huge farcical comedy and we were all improvisers 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:58.040 and we were never serious with each other. So in 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:01.760 that kind of environment for someone to just burst into tears, 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:06.120 which I did, nobody knew what to do because we 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:10.280 were all used to being flip and sarcastic with each other. 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:13.840 And I had the genuine display of emotion of just 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:15.680 feeling like and I couldn't even speak. It was like 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:20.160 the ugliest cry on the planet. It was convulsive snot bubbles, 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:24.480 the works, and um the only person who could, Like 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:26.720 all the other actors in the show were just sort 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:30.880 of like, I don't know how to deal with honest 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:34.520 human emotion. I'm used to faking it all the time, right, 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.280 And when when you're not the person that people expect 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:40.600 crying from, I think it's it can be even worse 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.640 because then like you've because they assumed like, oh, you've 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.760 never cried before, so this must be the most upset 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.920 you've ever been exactly, but it's not. Doesn't necessarily map 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:53.880 that way. It's that old saw of they told me 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:57.160 this wouldn't happen, and that's exactly what it was, because 0:15:57.200 --> 0:16:00.080 I was the that was the even keeled person and 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:04.000 among all these super ultra creative types. So the only 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:07.680 person who could talk to me was David Sedaris's boyfriend 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:10.520 now husband, Hugh, who was our set decorator, Hugh Hamrick. 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:12.840 He came up to me and he's like, I just 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.840 want to tell you that you're my favorite person in 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:21.000 the show. And I was like, that's making me crime 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:26.080 and more like, I just felt this sort of really 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:31.720 unwarranted just hatred towards him for showing me like human 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:35.960 decency that none of the other horrible actors in the 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.680 show in the show could say to me was my 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.080 husband was in the show. That show. I'm just remembering. 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:45.200 Nobody could could be nice to me except Hugh, and 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:48.360 I rejected him. I was like, I'm not the best 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.160 person in the show. Oh I was awful. And then 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:53.880 I had to, of course, you know, put vizine in 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:58.440 my eyes and um put tons of extra concealer around 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.120 my nose and out, and I felt like I had 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.000 a head cold from all the it's not and what 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:07.800 what not, and it was just awful. And I think 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:10.760 that's the night that like all my relatives and my 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:14.880 in law came and saw the play was blow energy. 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:18.240 It was horrible, but you know, it was a learning 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:22.080 experience for sure. There's also the lesson is also there's 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:26.240 no right way to talk to somebody who's crying in 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:28.919 front of you in the workplace. Yeah. I talked to 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:33.560 this executive coach who tells me that she coaches executives 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:35.600 on how to deal with crying because it is so 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.160 awkward for people to be around people who are crying 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.840 that nobody, nobody knows what to do. And her number 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:44.040 one piece of advice is just like stay quiet, Like 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:47.040 saying something makes it worse usually. But you know what, 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:49.720 now that I'm older, I have to disagree with what 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:52.520 I just agree with that because I look back at 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:55.879 what Hugh did and it was a very beautiful human 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.040 thing that he did. And it kind of goes along 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.639 with my rule now, which I call I'll always go 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:04.320 to the funeral, which means when someone passes away or 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:07.440 when their relative passes away and they need support, Yes, 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.320 it's probably going to be awkward for you, but you 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.520 can't put a price tag on that just gesture of 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:17.240 kindness that you're making towards someone that you care about, 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.040 even if they don't know how to deal with it, 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:23.359 You know what I mean? I can imagine um in 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:29.280 my big work cry. I am sure that my boss 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:35.480 was deeply uncomfortable, and he wasn't someone who could have 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:38.480 in any way come over and put a hand on 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:42.240 my shoulder and said, hey, I'm really sorry that you're 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.200 I mean it just there was nothing he could do 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:50.679 except sit there and in in a way that was 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:56.520 that was fine. UM, I think it. It's better than 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.600 a lot of the other options. I'm not sure what 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:03.159 the would have been. One thing, um also that I 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:07.679 noticed I didn't have a warm relationship with my boss. 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:14.920 I hardly knew him. Um. It was always different from 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:18.480 that point on, And I won't say better. I won't 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:20.720 say that it was closer, but it was different. It 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:28.520 was different. Two have this very emotional encounter and I 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.560 left that job just a couple of months later. Um, 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:35.240 because I got a job I really did want. But 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:39.840 it was our relationship upped up until that point had 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:45.320 been completely phony or it existed, but he didn't know 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:49.320 me in any way um, I didn't know him, and 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:52.760 so there was some value. Even though it was I 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:57.000 felt kind of bashful because it was a little like 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:02.879 tearing my clothes off, um. But it did change the relationship, 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.080 and I would say probably changed it for the better. 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:08.880 It was sort of an authentic moment that we had 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:15.119 together that was upsetting that ended up resolving surprisingly in 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:20.320 a good way. That there was nobody was I certainly 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:24.119 wasn't trying to be careful. I just let it out, 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:27.240 And I agree that was the same with mine. I don't. 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.920 I mean, at the time, I felt mortified because because 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:35.000 I felt like I had this realization that these people 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:37.439 liked me better when I was just this sort of 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.879 surface person. They liked it when it was light and 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.280 fun and we were always joking around. And I had 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:49.480 broken I burst through that um glass not ceiling, wall floor, 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:52.520 the glass floor. I burst through it and it kind 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:56.760 of pops something. But I'm still friends with almost all 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.080 of the people that were in that production, and I 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:02.919 know that they have of tender feelings for me because 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:06.280 I did that. They always tell me like I have 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:11.240 a good heart as opposed to their evil, black hearts. 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.960 But um, I know that it enriched our relationship in 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:17.399 the long run, which is what you're talking about too. 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:20.199 So is that the case for crying at work then 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:23.440 that you know, once you have this emotional bonding experience, 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:26.159 that you have a more real relationship with your coworkers, 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:30.560 or at least feel better. I think it's probably case 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:36.200 by case. I I don't think it would be wise 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:42.160 to see it as a as a universal um probably 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:46.399 though crying at the CIA, Yeah, I'm just thinking. You know, 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:49.360 you were in a play and it was a creative 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:55.800 um environment. I was in a I mean, radio station 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:58.440 wasn't the most creative place in the world, but there 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:06.919 wasn't the sense of competition and um rank And I 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:13.600 just don't know that each I think each work situation 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:17.400 would be so different that it's kind of hard to 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:22.879 to say. Also, crying can be induced by so many 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:25.960 different occasions. Or it can be that you're at work 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:30.639 and you're upset about something not related to work and 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:36.240 having trouble getting it out of your mind. Um, And 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:39.520 that that's a whole other issue. We've Yeah, we've talked 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:42.720 about like the work related cry versus the personal stuff 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:45.520 is happening that bleeds into work and whether one is 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:49.320 better than the other. Well, I I think it's tricky 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:53.040 if you're so distracted and upset about something that's going 0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:58.240 on outside of work that you have trouble composing yourself 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:02.080 at work. I think that may maybe that's not the 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:04.240 best thing. I mean, maybe it suggests you need a 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:07.600 little break from work because it's I don't think it 0:23:07.600 --> 0:23:12.240 would be a very a very receptive place to be. 0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:16.320 It also suggests you're in worse shape than you think. 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:22.360 If you're really having trouble while you're at work, UM 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:27.239 have creating a separation from the stuff that's troubling you. 0:23:27.840 --> 0:23:32.040 That's what I always cry at work. I don't know, 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:35.320 I think that. I think work cries for me are 0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:38.800 usually I mean that was that. My story is about 0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:41.320 a review of the play I was doing, but it 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:44.960 had a lot to do with my own feelings of insecurity. 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:47.920 If you're if it's work cry, I feel like it's 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:51.720 it's just a trigger, you know, and then it goes 0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:56.359 into something deeper, especially if you're really sobbing, right and 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.639 we spend so much time at work that you know, 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:03.320 when personal stuff happens, there's there's there's a decent chance 0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:05.639 that it will happen, just like during the hours when 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:08.640 you're on the job, you're going to get that bad 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:11.520 email or phone call that was going to trigger something. 0:24:12.440 --> 0:24:18.120 And yeah, I think before email, um and people were 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:21.600 at work and they were really separated from their personal lives. 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:26.960 Now you you go to work and you can be 0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:30.040 as actively involved with all the stuff that's going on 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:34.880 in your personal life just seamlessly because you're getting emails 0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:39.600 or you're uh texting, and if you're having an issue 0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:44.560 with a partner or some family drama, it can still 0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:47.560 be there right in front of your face. I think 0:24:47.600 --> 0:24:50.320 in the past, people came to work and you know, 0:24:50.400 --> 0:24:52.320 they would come home and find out, all right, what 0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:56.960 happened while I was away. It's not an ongoing UM. 0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:00.800 And if they were men, they be like, I don't 0:25:00.800 --> 0:25:03.720 care what happened when I was right, as long as 0:25:03.760 --> 0:25:06.760 nobody's bleeding. When I get home, bring me a whiskey, 0:25:07.000 --> 0:25:11.880 three fingers whiskey, Sam, make it a double. Well, thank 0:25:11.880 --> 0:25:13.880 you so much for coming on and talking to us 0:25:13.960 --> 0:25:17.159 about crying. Um, maybe we should all go home and 0:25:17.280 --> 0:25:19.199 have a good cry. I was very moving. I know 0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:23.320 I'm feeling I'm feeling a little weepy. To watch Schindler's List. 0:25:24.760 --> 0:25:27.320 Thanks for having us on. It's really been a pleasure 0:25:27.359 --> 0:25:35.040 talking to Okay, so neither Susan nor Sarah we're willing 0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:37.719 to go out on a limb and advocate crying as 0:25:37.760 --> 0:25:41.160 a work strategy. I do think they both had kind 0:25:41.200 --> 0:25:44.680 of transformative experiences that came out of crying at work. Yeah, 0:25:44.680 --> 0:25:46.679