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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius 9 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: XIM Triumph Channel one thirty two talk about an evil genius, 10 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: someone so incredibly mentally gifted with an i Q around 11 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: a hundred and seventy, but uses that brain power for 12 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: evil terrorizing the country. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. 13 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. A math prodigy, an 14 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: academic career. How did he come to the decision to 15 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: abandon a career at university to follow a primitive lifestyle 16 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: living in the middle of nowhere and basically a log 17 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: cabin without indoor plumbing. How does this happen? And how 18 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: does an evil genius living in the middle of nowhere 19 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: in a remote cabin without electricity or even running water, 20 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: and in the woodlands of Montana. How does this guy 21 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: manage to terrorize the country with a nation wide bombing 22 00:01:54,680 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: campaign targeting people involved with modern tech chnology? How does 23 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: your mind get so twisted when you could have been 24 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 1: anything working at NASA, teaching at Chicago, or m I T. 25 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: How do you end up in a cabin in the 26 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: middle of the Montana woodlands masterminding and executing a bombing 27 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: a lethal bombing campaign across the nation? The evil genius 28 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 1: Theodore John Kazynski, commonly known as the UNI Bomber with 29 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: me Jim Fitzgerald, former FBI agent. This guy Jim Fitzgerald 30 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: is actually the star of a movie called man Hunt Unibomber. 31 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: His character was played by Sam Worthington. It was on 32 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: I D and now on Netflix, man Hunt Uni Bomber. 33 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: He was also the author of a series of books 34 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: called Journey to the Center of the Mind. You can 35 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 1: find it at his website James or Fitzgerald dot com 36 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: or Amazon with me The Terrorist Therapist, Dr Carol Lieberman 37 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: l a forensic psychiatrist, author of Alliance and Tigers and 38 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: Terrorists Oh My. You can find her at The Terrorist 39 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: Therapist dot com and Reporting Today, Crime Stories investigative reporter 40 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: Alan the Duke Duke, all right, I don't even know 41 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: where to start, so let's just start with you, Alan Duke. Nobody. 42 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: I remember this vaguely when sketches of the UNI bomber 43 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: would come out, and to me, every guy running the 44 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,119 Speaker 1: jogging track looked like him because it was a hoodie 45 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: with the hoodie pulled up over the head and a 46 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: pair of like aviator sunglasses. That could have been anybody. 47 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: Do you remember when they came out? Oh? Yes, I 48 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: was at CNN just as you were, and we were 49 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: trying to figure out who this guy was, where he 50 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: was because every few months, over a series reeas of years, 51 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: there would be another bomb attack, and they became more 52 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: serious and more serious, stretching out from night to nine, 53 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: killing three people injuring twenty three others. What was it, 54 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: jim seventeen bombings? I think over those that period it 55 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 1: was sixteen total. And if he brought down the airplane 56 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: he wanted to he put a bomb on, it would 57 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 1: have been you know, two d and fifty more people. 58 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: So luckily that bomb only worked sort of halfway and 59 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: the plane was a resulted an emergency landing. Wow, you 60 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: know what, I did not even it should be at 61 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: the plane bombing to him, Jim Vizgerald, former fed with 62 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: the FBI, you just taught me something new. And Alan 63 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: de what you were saying about um us being at 64 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: CNN at the time. I remember jogging back in Atlanta 65 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: at that time and I would literally see a guy 66 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: running by with a hoodie and sunglass. I'm like, and 67 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,679 Speaker 1: I would stop and turn around a look at him, 68 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: and then another guy come along basically looking the same way. 69 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: I'm like, this is crazy. No one could identify the 70 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: UNI bomber. And he was so smart Dr Carol Lieberman 71 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: that he would implant faults clues inside the inner workings 72 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: of the bombs, faults clues. That's how brilliant this guy is. Yes, 73 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 1: he was very intellectually brilliant, but psychologically he had problems 74 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: from his UH from the time he was a baby 75 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: on that that began with his having us having hives 76 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: and being isolated in the hospital. It was so interesting 77 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: as a psychiatrist to see all of the different things 78 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: that happened to him along the way in his early 79 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: years that turned him into the UNI bomber. Things where 80 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: he was hurt, made angry, felt resentful, and revengeful against society. 81 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: It's really an interesting study about how my a brilliant 82 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: mind can get so twisted. Take a listen to an 83 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: as Salt Lake City computer store owner Gary Wright tells 84 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: ABC about how he was wounded. As I drove into 85 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: the rear parking lot, I noticed that there was a 86 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: piece of wood. I went over to pick it up. 87 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: I bent down and I put my hand on the 88 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: very end of it, and immediately something happened. There was 89 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: a big blast of pressure and I was knocked about 90 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: twenty ft backwards into the parking lot. What happened here? 91 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: When it went off, there was about two d pieces 92 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: of shrapnel that went through my body at various points. 93 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: Found out that my secretary had been looking out this 94 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: window right here, and she saw somebody kneeling down hold 95 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: something out of a bag and and set it on 96 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 1: the ground, and they were looking face to face about 97 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: four ft apart from one another. To Jim Fitzgerald, former 98 00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: FBI agent, criminal profiler, forensic linguist, former FBI agent known 99 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: for his role in the UNI bomb investigation, You know, 100 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: UNI bomb stands for University Airline bombs right, and it 101 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: was turned it was used. Um he became it was 102 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: called first within the FBI, the UNI bomb investigation. I've 103 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: been understanding. Then he turned into the UNI bomber from 104 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: that pseudonym, and there were a hundred and fifty full 105 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: time investigators on the case trying to catch this bomber. 106 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: Jim Fitzgerald, what a pleasure to have you your books 107 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: and journey to the center of the mind. Let me 108 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: ask you what went wrong in the mind of Ted Kausinska. 109 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: I mean, how does a a child math prodigy end 110 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: up out in the Montana woodland in a log cabin 111 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: with no running water or electricity. Well, that's an excellent question, Nancy, 112 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: that I think a number of psychologists and psychiatrists, both 113 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: professional and armchair, try to figure out even to this day. 114 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: And I mean I heard what doctor Carol say about 115 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: his hospital stay when he was very young. He was 116 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: back in those days it would be like the late 117 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: nineteen forties, they would actually isolate young children from their 118 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: parents for a certain amount of time. And uh, and 119 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: supposedly when he came back, I think he was only 120 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: two to three years old, his mother said in later 121 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: interviews with at the high agents that from that point 122 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: on she noticed a different little teddy. There was something 123 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: that was changed about him as a result of that 124 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: isolation for about five to seven days I believe it 125 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,599 Speaker 1: was when again he was about three years old. What 126 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: what hold on? Hold on are you guys, Jim Fisgeryl 127 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: and Carol Aberman. Doctor Carol Aberman trying to tell me 128 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: that five to seven days in isolation as a child 129 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: because he had hives turned him into the unibar because 130 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: I'm just not buying that. Well, help me out, Jim. Yeah, 131 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: I was listening to say here that that happened to 132 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: thousands and probably hundreds of thousands, if not more, of 133 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: kids in that age in that age bracket during that 134 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: time frame. But guess what they didn't turned out to 135 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: be serial killers or serial bombers. There was definitely something 136 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: in his d NA that took him to that level 137 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: years later in life. Well, you know, first of all, 138 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: it was it was there were things that happened during 139 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: that hospitalization. It wasn't the only bad thing that happened 140 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: to him, um, but you know, he was also held 141 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: down by doctors examining his hives. There's a lot of 142 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: there's a pattern that repeats. Wait a minute, I the 143 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: doctors made me hold the twins so they could get 144 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: their vaccinations. They're fine. Well, the thing is, um, you know, 145 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: first of all, his his mother said that he always 146 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 1: had sympathy towards animals and cages. But there's a pattern 147 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: in his life of isolated. We all have sympathy towards 148 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: animals and ages. My dog, fat Boy isn't a great 149 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: right now, so he won't attack somebody with these a docs. 150 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: And but the animal in a cage, yes, Like, none 151 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: of this is convincing me that it's anybody's fault. Okay, 152 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 1: but wait, that was just the first thing in a 153 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: pattern of similar kinds of situations where he was isolated. 154 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: First of all, through school, he was always kept on 155 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: the outside by by friends that he didn't really have friends. Um, 156 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: he was kind of bullied, he was and and he's 157 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,239 Speaker 1: always felt sort of held down in a way by society. 158 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: So that's a pattern that keeps repeating, Alan Duke, Alan Duke, 159 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: can you and Jackie please help me? I mean, I've 160 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: got two brilliant guests here, Dr Carol Aberman and Jim Fitzgerald, 161 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: brilliant both of them. Can we just put a little 162 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: common sense world knowledge into this. Everybody feels like they're 163 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: bullied in high school, even the bullies. Everybody feels like 164 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: they fit in on the outside looking in. I was 165 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: just convinced everybody thinks that held down in the hospital 166 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: to look at his hives. Yeah, okay, that's still not 167 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,119 Speaker 1: bothering me. Let's listen to what his brother, David Kazinski 168 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: is younger brother, said about how he was when he 169 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: was a young man, a teenager just going to college. 170 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: At age sixteen, he would write angry letters to his parents. 171 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: Let's showed signs of mental illness. Even at that point. 172 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: He began to um right, very hostile, angry, resentful letters 173 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: to our parents. I had a hard time understanding where 174 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 1: the resentment came from. How long do you think he 175 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: was challenged with mental illness. It's pretty clear that by 176 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: the time he was a graduate student at the University 177 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,239 Speaker 1: of Michigan, he was sufferings from some pretty serious delusions. 178 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: My major argument against the death penalty for my brother 179 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: is the fact that he's diagnosed with a serious mental 180 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: illness parent it schizophrenia. Well, so at sixteen he was 181 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: writing these angry letters to his parents. You know, I 182 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: thought Tan's always blame everything on their parents. That's my understanding. 183 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: I've yet to live through it, and I dread it. 184 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 1: I really dread it. But to me, that's still not 185 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 1: telling me that his mental illness caused him to turn 186 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: His allegedmental illness turned him into the UNI bomber. I 187 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: want to get back to him being the UNI bomber, 188 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: and I am fascinated. Jim Fitzgerald, author of A Journey 189 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: to the Center of the Mind. Jim, I mean, you've 190 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: even had your your star in a movie about this 191 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: called man Hunt Unibomber. Sam Worthington plays you. I can't 192 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 1: even imagine what that must feel like. So congratulations. You 193 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: can see it on Netflix. But I am totally intrigued. 194 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: But I mean, I always think I've seen it all. 195 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: Nothing new under the sun now as far as crimes. 196 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: But this guy is so brilliant. He actually would implant 197 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: false clues in his bombs. Explain, Yeah, it's one thing 198 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: to do forensic countermeasures, but this guy sort of did. Uh. 199 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: He not only avoided putting clues on his devices or 200 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: on his letters, he added false clues onto Uh specifically letters, 201 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: as far as we know. First of all, he inscribed 202 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: the initials FC onto Uh all of his bombing devices 203 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: are at least about fourteen of the sixteen of them, 204 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: and as in Frank C, as in chicken FC. Yes, 205 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: except he later explained in New York Times the FC 206 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: stood for Freedom Club, which was in fact sort of 207 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: antie that was easy to figure out. Yeah, And of 208 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: course some people thought they were his initials early on, 209 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: or he reversed them, you know, he's really C. Charlie F. 210 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: Frank was his name, you know, something like that. But 211 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: so that's one thing. But what he also would do 212 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: on his letters, uh, he would send letters in one 213 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: specifically to a Yale professor, Dr. Ga Lertner, the professor 214 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: of computer science there, who first received a bomb from 215 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: him and lost half of his hand, and then a 216 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: few months later receives a letter from him sort of 217 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: rubbing salt into the wounds, you know, figuratively speaking, And 218 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: he puts on the return address of the envelope ninth 219 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: and Pennsylvania Avenues, Washington, d C. I'm sure most of 220 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: your listeners know that's the address of the FBI building 221 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: as it was FBI headquarters, as was well known at 222 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: that time, the FBI was in charge. If you hear that, 223 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: he's brilliant. So he and I'm not saying that in 224 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: a good way. I'm saying it like you know, the 225 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: devil is brilliant in his own way as well. When 226 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: it's just amazing to me that he blows guy's hand off, 227 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: then writes him a letter, you know, rubbing salt in 228 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: the wounds, and gives the a turn addresses the FBI. Now, 229 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: i'm he will disagree with the two of you, Jim 230 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: and Carol because from first and fourth he went to 231 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: Sherman Elementary in Chicago. He's described as healthy, well adjusted. 232 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: All right, no problem there. Then he they moved to 233 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: Evergreen Park Central School. He skipped the sixth grade. That's 234 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: a problem for him because he's in with people he 235 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: doesn't know and he feels bullied. Okay, that happens to everybody. 236 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: He goes to Evergreen Park Community High School, where he 237 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: excelled academically. He played the trombone in the marching band. 238 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: He was in the math club, the biology club, the 239 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: coin club, the German club. All right, Still, I mean 240 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: he's holding it together. He was regarded as a walking brain, 241 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: so to speak. According to his peers, he was considered 242 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: the smartest kid in the clients. Just quiet and shy, 243 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: but once you knew him, he would talk and talk 244 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: and talk. Throughout high school, he was in front of 245 00:15:54,480 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: everybody in advanced classes. He went to Harvard University. I okay, 246 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: hold on, he goes to Harvard. He makes it at Harvard. 247 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: Now to me, you you would have to be How 248 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: can someone who was not mentally a depth make it 249 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: through Harvard? Okay? His sweet mates even really did not 250 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: see anything out of the ordinary with him. He excelled 251 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: at Harvard. No one noticed anything was wrong. He would 252 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: debate personal philosophy with fellow students, right essays as to 253 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: his beliefs. So one thing happened there though, he began 254 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: his anti technology fixation, and it's claimed that vexation had 255 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: roots in the Harvard curriculum. He got his degree in 256 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: math at Harvard, and um, I know that much. Then 257 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 1: he went to University of Michigan got his master's in 258 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: doctrine in mathematics. I mean, how can you get through 259 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 1: that if you're mainly ill? Well? You actually, I mean, 260 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: because he was such a genius, and he was doing 261 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: so well academically that people ignored the fact that he 262 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: was having all of these social problems, you know, socialization problems. 263 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: His mother even thought about putting him in a study 264 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: for artistic children because of that, and today he might 265 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: have been UM classified as in that autism spectrum. There's 266 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: there's interests. There are interesting debates about what his actual 267 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: psychiatric diagnosis is. UM. Some forensic psychiatrist said schizophrenia, paranoid schizophrenia. 268 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: Then um Park Deets, who's a well known forensic psychiatrist, 269 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: said he had just the schizoid personality disorder. UM. You know, 270 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: I'm I'm looking at the dates. The dates that he 271 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: started doing things started going downhill actually coincide with UM. 272 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: Actually more even with manic depressive illness, in which you 273 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: can become paranoid in manic phases. I'm not sure that 274 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: we okay, Well tell me this then, Jim Fitzgerald, I'm 275 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: hearing all about his everybody arm cheering, uh this one 276 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: and that one. What they think may be wrong with him? 277 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: Could somebody explain to me how at just he became 278 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: the youngest assistant professor of mathematics in the history of 279 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: the University of California, Berkeley. He taught undergrad courses in 280 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: geometry and calculus. Hello, and then all of a sudden 281 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: the blue, he just resigns from Berkeley, moves to his 282 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: parents in Lombard, Illinois, and then into a remote cabin 283 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: he himself built in Montana. I mean, nobody had any clue. 284 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: And he's approaching thirty now, and he's a teacher, the 285 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: youngest teacher ever at University California, Berkeley. Well Um Sherlock 286 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: Holmes had his professor Moriarty, and uh, I would put 287 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: Professor Kazynski in that same category, except of course nonfiction. 288 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: Um Kazynski self loathed. He didn't like himself, and that's 289 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: always a place I think Dr Carol would agree with it. 290 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: That's a place where then hatred for other people starts building. 291 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,719 Speaker 1: That's the foundational level where hatred for others start building. 292 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: And it was during his University of Michigan years. Because 293 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: we read once we got inside his cabin in April 294 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: of ninety six, I was one of the first people 295 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: to read his autobiography, his diary, his notes as journals, 296 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: and he really talked a lot about those University of 297 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: Michigan years and how he started hating everybody around him 298 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: to the point that for some reason he was confused 299 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: in terms of his sexual identity. And he went to 300 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: the school psychologist and said, I want to become a woman. 301 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: And the doctor said, all right, well, we need about 302 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: five years of counseling. Maybe we'll put you on meds 303 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: in two or three years. Remember this is like the 304 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: mid sixties, so a lot of the before a lot 305 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: of these operations or these even identity crises were known 306 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: to be you know, publicized. Kazinski got so upset that 307 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: it would take five years. He wanted surgery the next 308 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 1: day to become a woman. So I read this journal 309 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: of his, you know, twenty thirty years later, and he 310 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: says it was leaving the doctor's office that day he 311 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: said to himself, forget becoming a woman. I'll stay just 312 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: like I am. But I'm gonna start killing people, just 313 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: like the psychiatrist and other people in business. And that's 314 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: when his true hatred for society really manifested. Now, it 315 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: took him another ten years or so to start bombing, 316 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,479 Speaker 1: but that's the foundation of the seeds of it right 317 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: there at the University of Mission let's talk about the bombs. 318 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: Jim Fitzgerald, former FBI agent who knows everything about the 319 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: unibomb investigation, actually has a character in a movie, the 320 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: lead character in the movie Man Hunt Unibomber. Jim, I 321 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: want to talk about the bombs. The bombs, the murderous bombs, 322 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: and there were many of them. Um from Northwestern University, 323 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 1: American Airlines flight that you mentioned from Chicago go to 324 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: Washington Lake Forest, Illinois, University of Utah, Vanderbilt University, California, Berkeley. 325 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: That should have been a clue right there. Uh, there 326 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: were two together there in July in May, Boeing University, Michigan, Sacramento, 327 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: Salt Lake City, Yale. I mean it goes on and 328 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: on and on. Tell me about the type of bombs 329 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: he would build, and how would he conceal them, who 330 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: would find the bombs? Well, all those locations you mentioned, 331 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: there's really only three cities that played into our investigation 332 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: once the bomb passed force and started. That was Chicago, 333 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: Salt Lake City, and San Francisco. It's it's those three places. 334 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: Either uh, he either placed the bomb at a specific 335 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: location or it's from where he mailed the bombs. So 336 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: and with any serial bomber, just like all the media 337 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: interviews I did back in March during the Austin bombing case, Um, 338 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: these guys strive to get better. They're very proud in 339 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: their devices, and just like anybody who try something for 340 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: the first time, build something, whatever, even makes a meal, 341 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: you're going to get better as you go along and 342 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: add your own little signature elements to it's something that 343 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: nobody else does. So his his first bombs are relatively weak, 344 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: they got better. You just spoke to me because I 345 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: cook about five nights a week for the twins and 346 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: my husband and my mom, if everybody's there, and the 347 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: first time I make something, it's not always the best. 348 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it's edible, but then a second time it 349 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: gets better. The next time it's better than it's everybody 350 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: goes back for thirds. So that just made sense to me. 351 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: And I'm looking. I've been researching in some small pathetic 352 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: way to discuss this with you and Dr Carol Lee 353 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: from today. But I know that one tactic, as I said, 354 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: was leaving false clues in every bomb, deliberately making the 355 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: clothes difficult to find to trick investigators into thinking they 356 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: had a clue like a metal plate stand with FC 357 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: as you said, hidden somewhere like the pipe end cap 358 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: or a note he left in a bomb that did 359 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: not detonate, which raised who it works? I told you 360 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 1: it would r v H. One time he put a 361 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: Eugene O'Neill one dollar stamps used to send his boxes. 362 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,640 Speaker 1: One of the bombs was sent embedded inside a copy 363 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: of the novel Ice brothers Um. Interesting, right, Okay, I 364 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: went off course. Go ahead, Jim. We're talking about the 365 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: type of bombs and who he would pick to find 366 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: the bomb. Sure, um, and the bombs themselves were all 367 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: very intricately designed and put together with spare parts and 368 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: pieces that he would design and construct himself. Even the 369 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: screws they were he actually threaded them. They were nails 370 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: that he threaded themselves himself, and then put a slot 371 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: on the top the batteries. He would tear the skins 372 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: off to make sure. Of course no fingerprints could be found, 373 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: but even the lot number wasn't on there. He would 374 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: use glue. He would put it using adhesive to put 375 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: the wooden devices together, and the FBI laboratory examine the 376 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: glue looking for you know, a name brand that you 377 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: could buy in a hardware store. No, they realize the 378 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: glue he used was made out of deer hoofs. He 379 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 1: would kill the deer, melt the hoods down, and make glue, 380 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: just like in the old days, glue was made from work. 381 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, wait, let me just let that sink 382 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: in just a moment. Alan Duke, Okay, I guess you 383 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: and I are the only normal people on right now 384 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: because the other two were brainiacs. And sorry to suggest 385 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: you're not. But Alan who has time to make glue 386 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: out of deer hoofs? And this proves everything you see 387 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,479 Speaker 1: on TV about the FBI is true, because they are 388 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: an a rising the glue made in these bombs. This 389 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 1: guy is brilliant. He's taken off the battery covers, He's 390 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: done everything to avoid detection. He even made his own 391 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: glue out of deer hoofs. Alan, did you know that? 392 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: Because I did not. Yeah. He he was a do 393 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: it yourself for I mean, he built his own cabin. 394 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: That's certainly an understatementself. I mean to me, I put 395 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 1: up a peg in my son's closet the other day. 396 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: He put his baseball caps on. That's to do it 397 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 1: yourself or to me. All right, this is way past that, 398 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: Aland he didn't have twins to watch after. He did 399 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: not have a mother in law or a mother or 400 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: a wife or anybody to disturb him because he was 401 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: out in the middle of nowhere in Montana in that 402 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: one room cabin. He didn't get cable. Yeah, he had 403 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: nothing to do out there. Well, for a long time, 404 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: the FBI had very little to show for their investigation. 405 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: If to all of these bombs, there was a break 406 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: in the case. But before I get to the break, Jim, 407 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: what was a similarity in the bombs? Were they all 408 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: the same? And again I keep going off on a tangent, 409 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: but would he select the person that would find and 410 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,719 Speaker 1: detonate the bomb or was that happenstance? Now, all the 411 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: devices were remarkably similar, all well constructed. Again, all these 412 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: spare parts. In fact, before he was known as uh 413 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: the UNI Bomber, and it was UNI bomb, he was 414 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: called the Junkyard Bomber. That was his first name. But 415 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: FBI headquarters didn't like that, and we love acronyms in 416 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: the FBI, so they came up with the un Obamba, 417 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: as you said, University Airline bombings. Um as far as 418 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: his target selection, that's always whether it's a serial killer, 419 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: serial rapist, whatever. Uh. You know, investigators profiles always want 420 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: to know what is the target selection process? How do 421 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: they pick this target but not that one? Sometimes it's 422 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,479 Speaker 1: relatively easy. They may be you know, blonds that are 423 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: five foot ten or something. But someone like Kazynski or 424 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,479 Speaker 1: the Union armor, we only knew him as that we 425 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: weren't sure where they were coming from. Finally, the big 426 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 1: clue we had was that he was getting his bomber's addresses, 427 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: certainly the ones he was mailing the bombs too, out 428 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: of a book in that every library had, It's always 429 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: the thickest book in the reference section called Who's Who 430 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: in America. And that's where we knew he was going 431 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: through some library somewhere in the US and researching the 432 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: addresses of his of his victims, because he would occasionally 433 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: get like he put street instead of avenue or you know, 434 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: number instead of apartment whatever, And we knew that Who's 435 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: Who in effect sort of made that mistake. So we 436 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: knew after three or four bombings that were mailed that's 437 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: where he was getting his information. But the victims all 438 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 1: represented Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, White White jam hold on. 439 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 1: So you guys figure out because of the mistakes in 440 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: the addresses, such as, instead of apartment number four, it 441 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: said number four whatever. He's getting it out of a 442 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: who's who directory in a library. Is that what you're 443 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 1: telling me? Yes, now, that's where he got the specific 444 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: maneling information. But he he learned about his victims, you know, 445 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: in other readings he was he was reading every single 446 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: day at the local library in Lincoln, Montana. We didn't 447 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: know that's where he was, of course, and New York Times, 448 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: Washington Post, you know, Time, Newsweek, whatever magazine was out 449 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 1: back then, and he read about research scientists, geneticist whatever, 450 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: computer stores as he progressed, and he would find something 451 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: they didn't like, um um. Thomas Moser from North Jersey. 452 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: That was his fifteenth bombing victim and killed. He didn't 453 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: like him because he worked for a public relations firm 454 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: that was defending Exon after the x In spill. So 455 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: this guy had nothing to do with Ted Kazinski. They 456 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: never met, but he sent him a bomb to his 457 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: home just because his firm was representing Exon Exxon Valdi's 458 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: oil spill. Five months later, um the lobby the forestry 459 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: lobbyist in Sacramento. He received the bomb because Kazinski, and 460 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: we didn't know his name yet, but there was a 461 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: sawmill that opened up about a half mile from his 462 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: cabin and he would hear the noise in the morning, 463 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: and knowing the trees are getting cut down, that bothered him. 464 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: So instead of doing anything to those lumberjacks a half 465 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: mile away, he sends a bomb to a forest, three lobbyists, 466 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: and Sacramento. This is how he would choose his victims, 467 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: and he could never be connected to them in any way, 468 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: shape or form. So Alan, do I guess you're telling 469 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: me you knew all that too? No, I didn't know. 470 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: I didn't. I really started getting into the UNI bomber, 471 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: especially when they started sending the manifesto. Okay that yet, 472 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: but actually let's talk about the manifesto. You know, Dr 473 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: Carol Lieberman, you know the old phrase l a forensic psychiatrist, 474 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: the terrorist therapist dot com, author of Lions and Tigers 475 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: and Terrorists. Oh my, Dr Carrol, the old saying is vanity. 476 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: Thy name is a woman that is total b yes, 477 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: which is a technical legal term, because that I believe 478 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: as what was the undoing of this evil genius, the 479 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: UNI bomber. Because he couldn't just have these thoughts, he 480 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: couldn't just bomb people and murder them all around the country. 481 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: He had to show it off with. I think what 482 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: was it a word manifesto that then he sent to 483 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: various publications, including the Washington Post in the New York Times, 484 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: and of course they published it. Vanity Carol, Yes, Vanity absolutely. 485 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: And then there's also an earlier route for that that 486 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: we haven't talked about yet. How he was in this 487 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: experiment in college and Harvard where people were a psychology 488 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: experiment where people were supposed to write essays and then 489 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: they would be criticized by someone. And he was in 490 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: this experiment weekly for three years, and he would have 491 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: somebody criticize him terribly, make personal uh, on a personal 492 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: kind of level, really pushing him down. And so it's 493 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: so interesting that was a voluntary psychology group he was 494 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: in as it related to his psychology classes, he was 495 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: taken and I would argue that that's the very same 496 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: thing that happens when you're in a sorority. But anyway, 497 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: that's a whole another can of arms. Vanity is what 498 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: I'm talking about, Dr Carroll. He had to get published, 499 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: but it's interesting that here are the essays that he 500 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: wrote in this ongoing three year experiment, brutal experiment. He 501 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: now wanted to have the opportunity, call it vanity, to 502 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: have his essays essay published without someone putting him down 503 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: for it. He wanted the whole world to see it. 504 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: Did you know about a recent law that could leave 505 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: your personal data exposed online for anybody to find? If 506 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: you've turned on the news lately, you know the Internet 507 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: has created a dangerous new world. Data breaches exposed private information. 508 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: There's a new side security threat every other day, and 509 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: criminals can sell the identity of you and your family 510 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: on the dart web. It's time you take the power 511 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: back by using a new website called truth Finder. Truth 512 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,959 Speaker 1: Finder allows you to find out exactly what information exists 513 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: about you online. Have you gotten a speeding ticket, received 514 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: a lean from the I R S, forgotten about an 515 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: embarrassing social media profile. Truth Finders searches through millions of 516 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: public records, puts all that data together and one easy 517 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: to read report. Members get unlimited searches, so you can 518 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 1: also look up those close to you and make sure 519 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: they're not hiding something from their past. You also get 520 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: free dart Web monitoring to make truth Finder the ultimate 521 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: tool in identity protection. If your personal info appears for 522 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: sale on the dart web, you'll be the first to know. 523 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: Visit truth finder dot com slash Nancy, enter your own name, 524 00:32:54,760 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: get started. Let's talk about the Manifesto with me, former 525 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: FBI agent, author of a Journey to the Center of 526 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: the Mind and played by Sam Worthington in the movie 527 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: Manhunt Unibomber. It's on Netflix right now. Jim, the Manifesto 528 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: was his undoing. It really was. And what a lot 529 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: of people forget is there were some letters he sent 530 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: to the New York Times before the Manifesto was published 531 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: or even received by the New York Times, so there 532 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: was a lot of information there too. He wrote fourteen 533 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: letters total, the fourteen being his article. He never called 534 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: it manifesto, by the way. He referred to it as 535 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: his article. And the deal with the New York Times was, 536 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: if you published this, I will cease and desist from 537 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: bombing to kill people for the rest of my life. However, 538 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: and I always got to kick out of this. I 539 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: retained the right to kill, for I retained the right 540 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: to bomb for purposes of sabotage. So I was never 541 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: clear how you would send a bomb somewhere only to 542 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: you know, destroy a building. But I've heard anybody. But 543 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: that's the deal that he wanted. And the manifesto itself 544 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: for thirty five thousand words, I don't know where I 545 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: got nine thousand, thirty five thousand words. Guys, take a 546 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: listen to this. Now, of course there's no camera and 547 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: attorney in General Janet Reno's office, but listen to this 548 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: from the movie man Hunt, as Reno tries to decide 549 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 1: about the manifesto being published. Listen, So the UNI bomber 550 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: is publishing deadline is approaching. Times in the poster, I 551 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: might call sheet. What am I going to tell him? 552 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: The FBI recommendation don The FBI recommendation is that we 553 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: published the manifesto in full. We published exclusively in the 554 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 1: Washington Post as part of a two pronged approach, first 555 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: pronged forensic linguistics. If we make the manifesto widely accessible, 556 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: I believe that there is an excellent chance that a 557 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 1: friend or a colleague of the UNI bomber will recognize 558 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: his unique land which in ideology, and we'll turn him in. Second, 559 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: there's a high likelihood that the UNI bomber lives in 560 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 1: the Bay Area. Now, the Washington Post is sold at 561 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: only one location in San Francisco. This unique advantage will 562 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: allow us to stage a large surveillance operation to follow 563 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,439 Speaker 1: to question, to identify every individual who buys a copy 564 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: of the Post on the day of publication. While this operation, 565 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 1: while the size and scale of this operation is unprecedented, 566 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: we believe it to be a singular opportunity to lure 567 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: the UNI bomber into the light. That's an unusual strategy. 568 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: You're bett in Big Daddy's in Bay Area. Well, we've 569 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: traced every UNI bomb letter package and bomb to the 570 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 1: exact mailbox he dropped it in. Every single one of 571 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: them is within an eight mile radius of San Francisco. 572 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 1: If he's coming to town to mail his bombs, come 573 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: a town to bias manifesto, and what's the precedent here? 574 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: Where do we stand? What's all this is done? I 575 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: believe that we can say with conviction the publication is 576 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: less to assuade to the demands of the attacker than 577 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: to use his plan against him so that it establishes 578 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: a precedent of vigilance rather than weakness on the part 579 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: of law enforcement. If you catch him, yes, ma'am, if 580 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: we catch him, big game. Wow. And that was your character. 581 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: That was you, along with Chris Nath playing Don Ackerman 582 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 1: and Reno played by Jane Lynch, who I love. By 583 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,399 Speaker 1: the way, Jim, I'm curious about how it feels when 584 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: you hear a dramatization of what went really went down. Well, 585 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 1: I've used one word in any interview I've done or 586 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: even personal conversations to watch a character on the screen 587 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: portray you and someone who's good an actor is Sam Worthington. 588 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,839 Speaker 1: It's the word is surreal or surrealistic. I mean it's 589 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 1: almost dreamlike. And yeah, that's what I said. Yeah, that's 590 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: what I told the writer. I said that twenty years 591 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: ago to that guy, and they captured it all in there. 592 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,399 Speaker 1: They did a great job. And early in that scene, 593 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: you you can't wait to watch this, and you're saying 594 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: it's on Netflix man Hunt Universe, I can't wait to 595 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: say this. See it's actually an eight part mini series 596 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: um actually inginally aired on Discovery, but now it's on Netflix. 597 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: All over the world, and uh, it's getting it's gotten 598 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: great reviews and people are you know, still talking about it. 599 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 1: And uh, the last chapter in my third book is 600 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: a detailed, uh you know, uh story of my role 601 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: at unibom And there's some things, of course, in any 602 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: mini series or movies, even based on true events, that 603 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: didn't exactly happen as you know, so portrayed. So in 604 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: my book, I certainly set the record straight in that regard, 605 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: But on the whole, I'm still very happy with the 606 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: mini series. They taught it a good overall story about 607 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: the FBI's quest to get the serial bomber off the streets, 608 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: and we eventually did so. That depicts the conversation the 609 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: thinking of US Torny General Janet Reno into letting this 610 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:11,240 Speaker 1: manifesto third word Manifesto be published. Now take a listen. 611 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: The manifesto again was the undoing of Ted Kazynski, the 612 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: evil Genius. How did you, David come to suspect that 613 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: your brother was the UNI bomber? You know? What actually 614 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 1: began with my wife, Linda, And interestingly enough, she had 615 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: never met Ted, but she knew that Ted had this 616 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,800 Speaker 1: kind of phobia about technology. She knew he was estranged 617 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: from the family. But I had never seen Ted violent. 618 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe that he was capable of it. But 619 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: she did at that point say, look, the UNI bomber 620 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: has sent this manifesto to the Washington Post. Would you 621 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 1: read it and tell me what you think? And I 622 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 1: thought it would be a way to allay Linda Spheres. 623 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 1: I thought I'd read that thing, I'd tell her it's 624 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,800 Speaker 1: not Ted and uh. Instead, as I began to read it, 625 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,879 Speaker 1: I realized that the voice there was so much like Ted's. Um, 626 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: you know, there's some languaging. Yeah. There was a particular 627 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 1: phrase where he had called modern philosopher's cool headed logicians, 628 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: and I had recalled a similar phrase in a letter 629 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: he had once sent me. And then you thought, And 630 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: the day finally came when I said to Linda, and 631 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: I think it's at that it could be. And did 632 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 1: you ever think of not turning him in? Oh? Think 633 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: of the dilemma I faced. You know, on one hand, 634 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 1: here's my brother, whom I love, who I your mother 635 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: had told you to always protect, to protect. Remember when 636 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: I was a child, she had said, never abandoned your brother, 637 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,919 Speaker 1: because that's what he fears. The most. I think Mom 638 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 1: knew that Ted had a kind of vulnerability about him. 639 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 1: He was going to struggle in life. How did you 640 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: tell your mother? So? How did you do it? You 641 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 1: have this dread and you have this denial, and you 642 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: don't want to basid, But then something inside you knows 643 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,399 Speaker 1: that it could be true, as you said, So then 644 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 1: you determined to go to the FBI. If you think 645 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: of the dilemma, we were in a place where any 646 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: decision we made could lead to somebody's death. If we 647 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: did nothing, we might wake up someday and realize, Hey, 648 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 1: somebody died because we had failed to act. In that case, 649 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,720 Speaker 1: we'd have the blood of innocent people in our hands. 650 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: On the other hand, there was the realization that if 651 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,720 Speaker 1: I turned it in, Um, you know, he'd committed three murders, 652 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: he was the most wanted person in America, he could 653 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: be executed. So I had to ask myself what would 654 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: it be like to go through the rest of my 655 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: life with my brother's blood on my hands? UM. I 656 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,879 Speaker 1: think ultimately we just felt, you know, we couldn't live 657 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 1: with ourselves if we failed to stop the violence. We 658 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 1: had to act, and so um we did end up 659 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: through an attorney contacting the FBI. That was Kauzynski's brother, 660 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: the un Obama's brother, David because key talking to our 661 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: beloved Oprah Winfrey. But listen to what the wife has 662 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,239 Speaker 1: to say. What she tells ABC the longest FBI investigation 663 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: in the history of our country. But how is it 664 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: that you, a college professor, was the first to suspect 665 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: tekask computer an obomber. The main reason, I think is 666 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:26,360 Speaker 1: that the FBI began to release information that must have 667 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:31,359 Speaker 1: been awful for you to have these suspicions that you're 668 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 1: going to share with this man who you love. Yes, 669 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: but it was really important to UM to talk with 670 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,880 Speaker 1: Dave about it. They had posted the first few pages 671 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: of the manifesto on the screen computer in the lobby 672 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: of the library, so Dave went with me. And then 673 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: as Dave read the first page, I was sitting at 674 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 1: his side and his jaw dropped. I thought I was 675 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 1: going to read the first page of this turned to 676 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,800 Speaker 1: Lynda and say, see, I told you so. But on 677 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: an emotional level, it just sounded like my brother's voice. 678 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:17,719 Speaker 1: I thought about the families that were abound. There was 679 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 1: one in which the package arrived to the man's home, 680 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: and his little two year old daughter was there. She 681 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,800 Speaker 1: was almost in the room when he opened the package. 682 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 1: Luckily she left and his wife left, and then he died, 683 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: and there were others. So I spent those days thinking 684 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: about those people. Wow. But you know you hear the 685 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:47,520 Speaker 1: heartbreak and the evil genius Unibomber's brother and his sister 686 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,280 Speaker 1: in law's voice is a struggle. Is this my brother? 687 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: If I turned him in, will he be put to death? 688 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: I promised my parents I would take care of him. 689 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: But you know what. Listen to t Ed Kazinski and 690 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: his take on his brother. But ways, if any of 691 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: you think he was jealous of you, um who He's 692 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: probably jealous of the fact that I got more issue 693 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 1: from my from our parents. Um. He was jealous of 694 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 1: the fact the simpler that I was done in our 695 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:24,920 Speaker 1: in our relationship. UM. Jealous of the fact that I 696 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: was smarter than he was. I could do I could 697 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: do most things better than he could. Athletics are winning. 698 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:35,280 Speaker 1: Section That was Teed Kazinski speaking to journalist Stephen Jubner. 699 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: But listen to what else he had to say. The 700 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: roles have been reversed. If you would expect if you 701 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: had suspected David of being the un devour right after 702 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,760 Speaker 1: all the years that you haven't been communicating very regularly, 703 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:53,720 Speaker 1: what would you have done? I have kept it to myself. 704 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,959 Speaker 1: Is that what you feel he should have done? Yeah? 705 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 1: And what was the first What was your reaction to 706 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:03,719 Speaker 1: that when you first year that David is involved in 707 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:10,759 Speaker 1: turning unit? What does that feel like? Well? Obviously I 708 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:18,320 Speaker 1: resented it. Um, there there was another another stream to 709 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,360 Speaker 1: my feelings there. I don't know if I can explain 710 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:25,719 Speaker 1: it properly, but um, you know, in a way I 711 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: was almost glad because, um, my own brother turned me 712 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 1: in and a sense me good. That is amazing to me. 713 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,160 Speaker 1: I need a shrink? How to Carol Lieberman with me? 714 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: Forensic psychiatrist, the Terrorist Therapist dot com and author of 715 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:49,240 Speaker 1: Lions and Tigers and Terrorists. Oh my. He is actually 716 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 1: blaming his brother and claiming that it's all because his 717 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 1: brother was jealous of him, and that he would never 718 00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 1: have turned his own brother in, that his brother made 719 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 1: him the serial killer look good? Well, um, you know, 720 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 1: actually I was thinking about that, that his brother that 721 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,400 Speaker 1: you know, although his brother and his brother's wife do 722 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: seem emotionally distraught, you know at this decision to make 723 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 1: and so on. Um, I think there had to have 724 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 1: been at least some bit of jealousy, maybe because he 725 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 1: wasn't aware of that, the brother wasn't aware of. But 726 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,280 Speaker 1: you know, can you imagine growing up in a hassehold 727 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 1: where you're with the genius brother um and and his 728 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: parents paying more attention to him and so on, there 729 00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 1: had to be at least unconsciously some jealous Yeah, totally. 730 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 1: My parents totally pay more attention to my brother than 731 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 1: to me and my sister. Yeah, because he made all 732 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:46,359 Speaker 1: f's and they had to coach him and tutor him 733 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,279 Speaker 1: and this and that and beg and play Jinny and 734 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 1: I were like, Okay, let's just go do our homework 735 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:56,840 Speaker 1: and yeah. So totally. And I'm shocked Dr Carol Laberman 736 00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:01,920 Speaker 1: that you would even say that the UNI bomber's brother 737 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 1: was jealous of his serial killer brother, Ted Kaczynski. I mean, 738 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,960 Speaker 1: that's to me, way beyond the pale. But Jim Fitzgerald, 739 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,320 Speaker 1: you're closer to the case than any of us, way in. 740 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,480 Speaker 1: I never saw jealousy there from everything I've read, Um, 741 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: he Ted was very much mad at his family. Then 742 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:30,080 Speaker 1: the last few years his father committed suicide and Ted, 743 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,480 Speaker 1: you know, didn't even show up for the viewing or 744 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 1: even anything after that. He made a phone call two 745 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,040 Speaker 1: weeks later to his mother collective course from a Lincoln 746 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: pay phone and uh. And she was so glad to 747 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 1: receive that, because David had already written him a letter 748 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,400 Speaker 1: that his father was dead. And I think he did 749 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 1: have parent issues. And in the letter to Dr McConnell, 750 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,239 Speaker 1: which was a rug's letter to open up a bomb, 751 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: I'm the one that first found ten years later the 752 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 1: hidden message Dad, it is I. And I've always suspected 753 00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 1: as written down the left hand column of the letter, 754 00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,440 Speaker 1: to trick the professor to opening up the package. And 755 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,240 Speaker 1: I've always felt that he had some strong animus towards 756 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,800 Speaker 1: his parents. He blamed them for what for what he 757 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,720 Speaker 1: turned out to be, for the creature and the social retard, 758 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 1: if I can use that term, that he basically turned 759 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,320 Speaker 1: out to be. He just couldn't function within society. Brilliant, 760 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:19,840 Speaker 1: but he just couldn't do it, and he had to 761 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 1: blame someone besides himself, so he blamed his parents. And 762 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 1: the bombing started in coincidentally when he was living at 763 00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,880 Speaker 1: home for two years in Chicago, Chicago suburbs with his 764 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,360 Speaker 1: family once again, and don't forget to Nancy. During that 765 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,400 Speaker 1: time frame, he was working at his younger brother's company, 766 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,040 Speaker 1: and he had one sort of semi date with a 767 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,880 Speaker 1: woman and she said no to any subsequent dates. He 768 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 1: put all these post it's around the company, you know, 769 00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,399 Speaker 1: insulting her, you know, body shaming her, as we would 770 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: say now. And David, his brother, his younger brother of 771 00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 1: seven years, had a fire Dr. Kazynski from his foam, um, 772 00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,200 Speaker 1: you know company, uh and uh. And so I think 773 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 1: some animals built up from that point on. And um, wait, 774 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,440 Speaker 1: what do you mean by post it notes? What did 775 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,560 Speaker 1: the post it notes say about the woman he dated? 776 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,120 Speaker 1: I I listed the limerick in my book, The Whole Limerick, 777 00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,720 Speaker 1: and they covered this in the mini series. But basically, 778 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,880 Speaker 1: he went out and baked an apple pie one night 779 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:17,440 Speaker 1: with this woman he worked with. It was like the 780 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,759 Speaker 1: only date he ever had. And she said, hey, Ted, 781 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,000 Speaker 1: you're nice, but let's you know, I can't see anything 782 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,600 Speaker 1: more coming of this. The next morning, he gets into 783 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,200 Speaker 1: work early again. His brother is the manager of this 784 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,719 Speaker 1: company in suburban Chicago, and and Ted has all these 785 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 1: post it notes criticizing her her fanny, size of her butt, 786 00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 1: so to speak, and other things about her. And actually 787 00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,000 Speaker 1: they were limericks and it was you know, they rhymed 788 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,799 Speaker 1: and you know, almost well written. So he stayed up 789 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,160 Speaker 1: all night writing limericks on post it notes to put 790 00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,080 Speaker 1: all looking back. Luckily, Luckily it was limericks and not 791 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:58,880 Speaker 1: a bomb. Right well put. This guy had thirty one victims, 792 00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 1: mini dead, multiple bombs all across the country, A brilliant, 793 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:12,200 Speaker 1: brilliant mathematician leaving false clues to throw off the FBI. 794 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 1: And they were thrown off for years. And you heard 795 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,799 Speaker 1: the extremes they were going to to try to catch 796 00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:24,640 Speaker 1: this guy, digging through libraries, standing it at newspaper outlets 797 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:29,319 Speaker 1: to see watch every person that bought a certain newspaper 798 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:34,000 Speaker 1: at a certain time during the day. I mean, extreme 799 00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:38,560 Speaker 1: measures to catch the UNI bomber. Finally, his own vanity 800 00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:42,959 Speaker 1: did him in when he published his so called Manifesto 801 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:48,120 Speaker 1: against technology. I guess he wanted everyone to live in 802 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,600 Speaker 1: the woods in a log cabin without water and electricity 803 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:59,400 Speaker 1: like him. But listen to what Kaczynski says, now, U, 804 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,120 Speaker 1: it's let me see you. Let's see if I can 805 00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:09,200 Speaker 1: explain his name. There's there's sort of um different levels 806 00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:13,759 Speaker 1: of of how you feel about your life. UM. Let 807 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,239 Speaker 1: me try to explain it this way. UM. When I 808 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:22,520 Speaker 1: was living in the woods, um, there was um sort 809 00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:27,160 Speaker 1: of an undertone underlying feeling that that things were basically 810 00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:31,120 Speaker 1: right with my life. That is, something might go wrong, 811 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 1: I may have a bad damn that screw something up. 812 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,640 Speaker 1: I might break my ax handle and do something else, 813 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,120 Speaker 1: and everything would go wrong. But still, somehow, under the 814 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:44,080 Speaker 1: underneath the the superficial unhappiness or bad things, it was 815 00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,080 Speaker 1: an underlying thing that my life was right. It was 816 00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:52,359 Speaker 1: able to fall back on the fact that, um, here 817 00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,920 Speaker 1: I was a freeman in the mountains, surrounded by forests 818 00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,440 Speaker 1: and wild animals and so forth, and this made this 819 00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:01,800 Speaker 1: made my life right even if things were for the 820 00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:06,000 Speaker 1: time being going badly here. It's the other way around. UM. 821 00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:10,000 Speaker 1: I'm not depressor, downcast, and I had things to do 822 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,000 Speaker 1: that I consider protective, like working on getting this book out. Um. 823 00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:20,160 Speaker 1: And yet the knowledge that I'm locked up here here 824 00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:22,759 Speaker 1: and likely to remain so for the rest of my 825 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:28,520 Speaker 1: life is uh, it ruins. It's it's the the undertone 826 00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,160 Speaker 1: in this case is is a is a is an 827 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:36,680 Speaker 1: extremely bad one, and um, I don't want to live along. 828 00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:38,399 Speaker 1: I would rather get the dead pimal people and spend 829 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,879 Speaker 1: the rest of my life in prison. Would you would 830 00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:44,080 Speaker 1: you take your own life given the opportunity, I will 831 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:46,680 Speaker 1: not kind of done it. And then at a superficial level, 832 00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:48,840 Speaker 1: it isn't really that bad, but just the knowledge that 833 00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:52,200 Speaker 1: I'm locked up and I'm not free sort of, it's 834 00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:53,880 Speaker 1: just to me, it's just not a life worth living. 835 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,680 Speaker 1: Ted Kazinski claiming he'd rather be dead than in prison. 836 00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,520 Speaker 1: And you know what, Kazinski, I bet there are a 837 00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:05,439 Speaker 1: lot of murder victims families that wish you were dead. 838 00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:17,279 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off goodbye friends. There's a 839 00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,080 Speaker 1: brand new website causing a lot of trouble for people 840 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,399 Speaker 1: with something to hide. 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Search the names of somebody you know. 850 00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:02,239 Speaker 1: You could find criminal and arrest record, bankruptcies, contact information, 851 00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:07,439 Speaker 1: social dating profiles, financial assets, and a lot more. Why 852 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,319 Speaker 1: fork out thousands to a private investigator when you can 853 00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:16,080 Speaker 1: do the job yourself. Everybody you know has something to hide. 854 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:20,240 Speaker 1: Now you can root out the most dangerous people before 855 00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,680 Speaker 1: you become the next victim. It's not just used to 856 00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:28,720 Speaker 1: us bad people. Truth Finder helps Americans reunite with friends, family, 857 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,439 Speaker 1: even people who served with them in the military. It's 858 00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,160 Speaker 1: never been so easy to find the truth. Go to 859 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,439 Speaker 1: truth finder dot com slash Nancy and enter any name 860 00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:39,480 Speaker 1: to get started.