1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,479 Speaker 1: we're back from the break. We thought the best way 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: to jump right back in would be to do more crabs. 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: That's right. We had we'd just recently done a couple 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: of episodes about crabs eating strange things, and we had 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: some We had some crab run over anyway, so we thought, well, 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: what what's what better than to go ahead and just 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: jump right back in two more crabs. Crab overflow. Did 11 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: you happen to eat any crab over the break? Rub? 12 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: I went crabbing with my son and my and my 13 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: brother in law, um, and they did catch crabs, and 14 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: they were excited about them. I ended up not eating 15 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: any of the crabs just because I don't know, I 16 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: just wasn't feeling it. It's a lot of work, Uh, 17 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: you gotta be you gotta want it so um. So 18 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: I abstained from the consumption of crabs, but I did 19 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: get to observe some crabs. In my experience, I feel 20 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,479 Speaker 1: like it's always kind of embarrassing to eat a crab 21 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: you're just sitting there working on it, you know. I 22 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: guess it's all of the the intense concentration it takes 23 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: to crack the pieces and stuff. You're not really following 24 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: the conversation at the table very well. It's you're in 25 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: your own world. Yeah, I mean, it definitely is one 26 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: of those activities that that puts you in the It 27 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: feels like you put you in an archaic mindset. You know, 28 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: you can imagine yourself, you know, you know, picking apart 29 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: a carcass on some sort of primordial shore, uh sort 30 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: of a situation. And and therefore you do get in 31 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: the zone. You get in the crab zone, right. Um, 32 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: But I don't know that. This this year, I wasn't 33 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: feeling it, So I did not have any crab, but 34 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: I was. I was in New Orleans, uh, and I 35 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: did enjoy some some very nice food, uh, some very 36 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: nice drinks. I made it over to Latitude once more 37 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: and had some some drinks that beach pump berries. Oh 38 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: do they do anything with tiki turkey puns for for 39 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: this time of year? Well, no, it's they're getting into 40 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: the sip in the Santa things. So there were some 41 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: Christmas ones I had a Christmas Eve of destruction, which 42 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: was very nice. Okay, okay, but we gotta talk crabs. 43 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: That people want crabs. Yeah, let's get into crabs. So um, 44 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: you know, in our in our most recent episodes on Crabs, 45 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: I did dish out a little bit of crab mythology, 46 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: and I mentioned how crabs don't often seem to have 47 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: central rolls and myths and folklores for various reasons. But 48 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean they don't have some very fun cameos. 49 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,399 Speaker 1: And of course I do hold out hope that there 50 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: are some some other crab myths and legends out there 51 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: that I just don't know about. And so, as always, 52 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: if I'm missing something right in and let us know now. 53 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: In The Eight Immortals Cross the Sea, an important Chinese 54 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: work of the Ming dynasty, you basically have the story 55 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: of these eight powerful humanoid beings using their various powers 56 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: to cross the ocean and kind of show off as 57 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: their doing it. Okay, I'm trying to is this something 58 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: we've talked about on the show before or similar to it, 59 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: or or a lot of these beings sort of overlapping 60 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: with the animals of the Chinese zodiac. I believe we've 61 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: talked about the immortals before, but I don't think we've 62 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: really looked at this particular work. Okay uh. And you 63 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: might be thinking of the Chinese zodiac origin story about 64 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: the the animal race where they have to cross a 65 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:30,119 Speaker 1: great river, so so this is different than that. But basically, 66 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: these are these are super beings. They have superpowers, and 67 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: so they're showing off as they crossed the ocean, and 68 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: crossing the ocean also entails outsmarting and overpowering the Dragon King, 69 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: as this is his domain. And we have mentioned the 70 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: Dragon King on the show before, but it's said that 71 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: the dragon King is served by quote, shrimp soldiers and 72 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: crab generals, as this is the sea after all. And 73 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: and I believe these these these sort of shrimp soldiers 74 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: and crab generals also show up in tales of the 75 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: Monkey King when when he encounters the Dragon King or 76 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: the Dragon king soldiers. What is it about crabs that 77 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: puts them in commander rolls? Don't I mean, you're gonna 78 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: put the shrimp in the commander roll? I mean it 79 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: seems like a no brainer, right, But the thing is 80 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: that in these stories, the shrimp and the crabs are 81 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: generally seen as ineffectual. So you have this saying that 82 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: emerges from these tales. Any you have references to shrimp 83 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: soldiers and crab generals. This has just become become a 84 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: way of referring to ineffective soldiers. Uh so I kind 85 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: of like that phrase. Okay, So would this be kind 86 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: of similar to when people say tin soldiers like t 87 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: I N I think so, yeah, I think this would 88 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: be this would be a version of that in Mandarin. Now, 89 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: there's another Chinese crab myth that I was reading about 90 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: that that was really fascinating me, and I wasn't really 91 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 1: able to get quite to the bottom of it, but 92 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: it pops up in yang and and Turner's Handbook of 93 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: Chinese Mythology. It concerns the Yellow Emperor, and there are 94 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: a lot of stories about the Yellow Emper and this 95 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: one just happens to involve crabs. A lot of these 96 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: emerge from from xin Jung in a non province, and 97 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: this one seems to have as well. And in this 98 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: particular tale, the Yellow Emperor's attendants find a nice cave 99 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: for him to visit in the summer. So this is 100 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: just just a really nice cave. It's cool. Uh, you 101 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: know some water there. You can rest very comfortable. Except 102 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: they're way too many mosquitoes and other unwanted vermin living 103 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: in the cave. So the Yellow Emperor just kind of 104 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: casually mentions like, geez, I wish someone would drive these 105 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: creatures away. Wish somebody would wipe these creatures out so 106 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: I could enjoy this cave, because otherwise it's a great 107 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: place to spend the summer. So what happens when an 108 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: individual of great power casually mentions the desire, Well, oftentimes 109 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: u uh, somebody will see an opportunity, and that's what 110 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: the crabs living in the cave do. They hear this 111 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: and they decide, well, let's do it, so they drive 112 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: all the unwanted creature year is out of this wondrous cave. 113 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: And as a reward, the Yellow Emperor is said to 114 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: have given these crabs an extra set of legs. Quote. Thereafter, 115 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: only the crabs in the local pond have tin legs. Wait, 116 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: I'm confused. Okay, so do you know anything about how 117 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: this connects to to biology, because so crabs are decapods 118 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: that should have ten legs, right right right, Yeah, this 119 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,679 Speaker 1: is where I really started scratching my head a bit because, yeah, 120 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: that decapod crabs are quite literally tin legged crabs, So 121 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: what would these other crabs have been? Well, I guess 122 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: it seems to get complicated because technically decapods can have 123 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: as many as thirty eight appendages and generally the peiopods 124 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 1: or walking appendages or what we very loosely refer to 125 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: as legs, and there are five pairs of those. But 126 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: at the same time, many common crabs, such as ghost grabs, 127 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: they do run around on four pairs of legs and 128 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: sometimes actually only employ three pairs and running and the 129 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: fifth pair of legs are the claws, which we humans 130 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: often go ahead and at least think of his hands, right, 131 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: because we can make we can make a little crab 132 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: claws with our hands, and so we kind of feel 133 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: like those are the crabs hands, right, Yeah, And if 134 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: you want to get really technical, I mean, crabs have 135 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: all kinds of bilaterally symmetrical appendages that you could imagine 136 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: our legs or have evolved from legs at some point, 137 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: so you know, crabs have jaw legs in their mouths, 138 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: the uh, the maxilla pads that help them eat and 139 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: uh and yeah, so so, yeah, it's true. Even though 140 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: they will typically have ten legs or leg like appendages, 141 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: some of those could be seen as other things. Like 142 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: you're saying, you know, a person looking at a crab's 143 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: claws as well, those aren't legs, those are hands, or 144 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: looking at maybe the swimmer legs says those aren't legs, 145 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: those are fins. Yeah. Yeah, because some crabs have paddles 146 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: for their their hindmost pair of legs, so you can 147 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: at least imagine a scenario in which someone might not 148 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: count those as being part of the leg count. But um, 149 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: but yeah, I'm not really sure how to exactly interpret 150 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: this story that maybe there's something missing in translation. Um, 151 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: you know, I looked around at a few papers about 152 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: extra leg genetic abnormalities in some crabs, so maybe that's 153 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: not out of the question either. Uh, maybe there was 154 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: just something particular about the crabs in this cave environment 155 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: or or even you know, is it sometimes the case 156 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: in accounts like this and legends, Maybe it's not even 157 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: describing a crab, it's something else. And the legend comes 158 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: down to, you know, describing, why does this thing look 159 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: a little different than what we're used to well, because 160 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: it did something wonderful and therefore was gifted extra appendages. Okay, 161 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: what number of appendages? Does it become not that useful 162 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: to have more of them? You know, if you've got 163 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: if you've got two arms, having two more arms, that 164 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: seems like a real upgrade, right, like goro has got 165 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: a real advantage over regular human. But once let's say 166 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: you already have uh ten bilaterally symmetrical appendages, if you 167 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: get two more, is I mean, is that really an 168 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: upgrade or do they just get in the way at 169 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: that point? Yeah, I guess this is usually a question 170 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: that that evolution natural selection solves over time. Right if 171 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: if appendages are not needed while then they're just a 172 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 1: drain on the the economy of the body, and therefore 173 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: there's a there's a a possibility they're going to disappear 174 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:21,959 Speaker 1: over time, that they're gonna atrophy. So I don't know. 175 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: But anyway, coming back to the story you were telling, 176 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: I love that detail about the Yellow Emperor, just sort 177 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: of idly saying, oh, I wish someone would get rid 178 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: of all these mosquitoes because it kind of reminds me 179 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: of the Actually don't know if this is historically solid 180 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: but the at least the at least legendary tale of 181 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: the death of Thomas Beckett, the Archbishop of Canterbury, who 182 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: when Henry the second supposedly said he was like mad 183 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: at him, I guess and said, you know, won't someone 184 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: rid me of this meddlesome priest? And uh, it wasn't 185 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: given as an order. He was just kind of musing 186 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 1: about how mad he was. But some nights happened overhear 187 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: him and they're like, well, okay, I guess we gotta 188 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: go kill this guy, and they did. Yeah, it basically 189 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: seems to be the same situation here. Now I'm out 190 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: of my depth on this, but I also can't help 191 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: but wonder maybe part of the idea of the story 192 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: is the crab has so many legs anyway, and therefore 193 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,439 Speaker 1: it's not much of a reward. Um. I don't know. 194 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: It makes me wonder, but I couldn't find out. I 195 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: looked around. I couldn't find any other strong sources, you know, 196 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: in in English on this. But if anyone out there 197 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 1: has any details about strange crabs in a non province, 198 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: crabs from the caves, and crabs with extra limbs right in, 199 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: I would love to love to have more clarity on this. 200 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: While you were telling the story, I was hit with 201 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: a with a tremendously bad pun. Should I say it? 202 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: Should I not say it? I don't know. It was 203 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: little pinchers have big ears. That's good now, Yeah, it's good. Now. 204 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: There are there are other crab tales to be found 205 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: in Chinese mythology. For instance, they're fair the old myths 206 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: to be found throughout various myth cycles of China among 207 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: different ethnic groups about the separation of heaven and Earth. Uh. 208 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: This is of course something you see in in other 209 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: myth cycles as well. Uh. And in Chinese traditions sometimes 210 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: there is a sky tower or sky pillar connecting the two, 211 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: and sometimes an animal is to blame for severing this 212 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: tower or pillar. And apparently in some tellings it is 213 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: a crab that does the snippet. Ah, well, that would 214 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: make sense. Yet again, when there's something to be snipped 215 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: in a myth, sometimes the crab will fill that gap. Yeah. 216 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: Now another one that I was reading about this one. 217 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: This is another you know, you know, very old mythological tale, 218 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: and it's the story of of woman cho of whom 219 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: there are I think three narratives in the Classic of Mountain, 220 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: Mountains and Seas, and as Zan Barrel explains in Chinese 221 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: Mythology and an Introduction, the written versions of these tales 222 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: UH date from the first century b c. E. And 223 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 1: the first century SEE and they tell of a time 224 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: during which quote, there are two people in the sea, 225 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: but we only meet one woman, Chow, who is strongly 226 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: linked with the crab. And it seems like she may 227 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: either take on the form of a crab or she 228 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: has a crab that is her attendant. And it seems 229 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: like this might be a crab of unusual size. And 230 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: the reasons for this seemed to include the idea that, okay, 231 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: you've got the land and the and you've got the sea, 232 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: and you have the crab, which kind of has a 233 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 1: dual nature. Like the crab lives on both. It can 234 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: scamper on the beach, but then it can scamper beneath 235 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: the waves, it can swim in the water, and so forth. Yeah, 236 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: the dual nature is right there in its body. It's 237 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: it lives in the ocean, but it walks on its legs. 238 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: But then the crab also does another interesting thing. It molts, 239 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: it sheds it's it's old shell and grows a new one, 240 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: and this was seen as a kind of regeneration that 241 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: might allow the crab to live forever. And it was 242 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: also associated with cycles of the moon, and of course 243 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: the moon has strong can actions to the idea of 244 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: immortality in Chinese mythology as well. Oh, that's very interesting 245 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: and it makes me wonder why we have commonly adopted 246 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 1: the metaphor of the butterfly as the you know, the 247 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: the important image from nature of something going through a 248 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: transformation and then uh and then coming coming out something new. 249 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess the difference there is that a 250 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: butterfly looks very different than the than the larval stage 251 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,599 Speaker 1: that went into the pupa. But uh, but when a 252 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: crab comes out is just bigger. So maybe that is 253 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: a better metaphor. I don't know. Now. Woman Chow is 254 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: also known as Woman Chow corpse corpse deity and uh. 255 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: This is connected to drought and the time of the 256 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 1: Ten Sons, the time in Chinese mythology we've mentioned in 257 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: the show before, Uh when there are tens sons in 258 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: the sky and they are burning up the earth, as 259 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 1: related in the Shanghai Shehan quote Woman Chow corpse was born, 260 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: but the tin son scorched her to death. That was 261 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: north of the land of Men. She screened her face 262 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: with her right hand where the tin suns are up above. 263 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: Woman cho lived there on top of the mountain, so 264 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: she's she's scorched and burned by the surplus suns, perhaps 265 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: seemingly especially her hand because she's shielding her eyes with 266 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: that hand. But then she is later reborn in brilliant green, 267 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: so she has renewal. She is drought survival. But she 268 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: has also connected to these observations of the crab and 269 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: the idea that the crab experiences this sort of periodic 270 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: renewal as well. Now, another area concerning crabs that I 271 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: was looking at kind of comes back to stuff we've 272 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: talked about already about the you know, the idea that 273 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: the crab design is a winning design, that it's emerged 274 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: independently multiple times, and that according to some eventually everything 275 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: will become a crab, Right, that's kind of the meme. Yeah, 276 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: I think the more modest phrasing is that other crustace 277 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: ends that are not necessarily crablike in form have repeatedly 278 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: evolved into crab like forms multiple times in the history 279 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: of life. Yeah. So earlier this year, Doug Johnson wrote 280 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: a fun article for Ours Technica titled on Earth things 281 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: evolve into crabs. Could the same be true in space? Uh? 282 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: And so that part of this article is the author's 283 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: generally summing up some of these ideas we've we've discussed already, 284 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: but then he gets into this this issue of alien 285 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: life because if we follow the logic that aliens might 286 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: be humanoid, because that's what we see emerge as a 287 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: dominant intelligent life form on our own world, then we 288 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: might go as far as to wonder, well, if crabs 289 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: are a popular form on this planet, wouldn't it make 290 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: sense to see crab or crab like bodies crab morphs 291 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: if you will on alien worlds as well. I want 292 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: to believe so. Um Johnson reached out to one of 293 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: the authors of the paper I referenced in our previous 294 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: crab episode, Joe Woolf, for researcher at Harvard University's Department 295 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: of Organismic and Evolutionary Biology. The article was how does 296 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: a crab become a crustacean? And I have to say 297 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: absolutely love this quote from her. This is something she 298 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: told to ours technical and in the the the interview 299 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: quote there is no clear cut reason why being a 300 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: crab is better than not being a crab. But if 301 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: you say that too loud, the crabs in the cable 302 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: here you and then they'll turn into something else. True. 303 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: But I love this this quote because there's an absurdity 304 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: to it, obviously, but it also does ring absolutely true 305 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: and betrays a deeper understanding. You know, we don't have 306 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: an answer in human reason and human language to the 307 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: question here, but evolution provides its own answer, and the 308 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: answer seems to be the crab form itself um in 309 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: various examples. However, Johnson talks to Charles Marshall, director of 310 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: the University of California Museum of Paleontology, and Marshall points out, 311 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: at all in all, it's a fairly narrow group of 312 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: species that have become crab morphs on our planet. Um 313 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: that you know that we shouldn't we shouldn't get too 314 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: excited about this kind this idea. It's like, well, crabs 315 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: are everywhere, so they must be in space. Like there's like, 316 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: ultimately it's still a situation where the crab form has 317 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 1: evolved as an answer to specific questions posed by our 318 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: natural environment and not say universal questions, right, And I 319 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: think the other half of that, uh, the other important 320 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: point highlighted by by Marshall's observation here is that it's 321 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: not just that the natural environment creates some pressure that 322 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: encourages crab like forms, but that it's also certain morphological 323 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,959 Speaker 1: starting places that if you're starting with a genome that 324 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: codes for a certain kind of body plan, it's easy 325 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: to get from there into a crab like form. And 326 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: that body plan is like other certain types of especially 327 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,719 Speaker 1: marine arthropods, you know, certain crustacean types. I mean like, 328 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: for example, you can you can look at that the 329 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: hands of various organisms, right, Like to get something like 330 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: an extra finger or an extra thumb, it has to 331 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: come from somewhere. You know, there has to be a 332 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: starting point. It's not just you know, suddenly thumb sort 333 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: of a situation exactly so, and maybe you know, another 334 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: billion years, we could find that all kinds of mammals 335 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: on Earth have evolved thumbs, because it turns out it's 336 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: really useful for all kinds of animals. But you're not 337 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: going to really find uh, say, crabs, with thumbs, right, 338 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: because they don't really have the morphological building blocks to 339 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: start with to make thumbs right. But I mean they do. 340 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: They do sometimes have access to thumbs, because we do 341 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: mention that they will show down on a cadaver. Yeah. Um, 342 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: then again I want just to doubt what I just said. 343 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, depending on how expansive your definition 344 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: of thumb is, you could say that the crabs claws 345 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: the pinching motion provides some of what a thumb is 346 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: good for. Right, That a thumb can help you, you know, 347 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: close your hand over an object in order to manipulate it, 348 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: obviously with much more dexterity than usually a crab can. 349 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: But I can see why we might look at the 350 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: crab body and think, well, this might be good in 351 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: in space, because we look at the way the crab 352 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: moves on land and through water, and it's easy to 353 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: extrapolate that toum like a microgravity situation. Right. So, in 354 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 1: the same way that you have some crabs on Earth 355 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: who's whose rear most pair of legs has turned into 356 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: swimmer legs, a little paddle legs to help them move 357 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: through the water, you could imagine a crab whose final 358 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: pair of legs has turned into ion thrusters. Well, I 359 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: wouldn't go that far, but um, I will say that 360 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: add that. I think another aspect of all of this 361 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 1: is that, you know, we we tend to think of 362 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: like crab more popping up everywhere and imagine them in 363 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 1: the future and another planets, because we do take a 364 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: lot of delight in these organisms. I mean, they're weird, 365 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:00,239 Speaker 1: they're stealthy, they're efficient, they're kind of funny to look at. Uh, 366 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: they're amusing to watch in the wild, and of course 367 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: we like to eat some of them. Uh, So we 368 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: have a vested interest in their existence, and that's always 369 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: a great way to wind up as a noted animal 370 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: for humans. Is it something that we eat or is 371 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: it something that can eat us? And uh, you know 372 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: that the crab kind of checks off both boxes with 373 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: some caveats on the consumption of humans. That's a very 374 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: well observed But I want to come back to crabs 375 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: eating strange things, or being attracted to eat strange things 376 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: at least, uh, And I wanted to do that by 377 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: looking at a study I came across from just this 378 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: year looking at hermit crabs. Now we've mentioned hermit crabs 379 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: a number of times in this series. Now, hermit crabs 380 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: are decapod crustaceans. They're not considered to quote true crabs. 381 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: I can't remember if we've said that already, but they 382 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: belong to the group and Amura meaning the false crabs, 383 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: rather than bracky era, which are supposedly true crabs. But hey, 384 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: you know, they're they're close enough. They're crab abs. And 385 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: so the study that I was reading about that I 386 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about was actually just published earlier this year, 387 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: so in and it was by Jack green Shields, Paula Schrmocker, 388 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 1: and your Hartigie in the journal Marine Pollution Bulletin. The 389 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: authors here start by noting that a bunch of research 390 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: has identified a problem of marine life being in one 391 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: way or another, attracted to plastic waste. So we've talked 392 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: before about some of the problems with plastic trash in 393 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: the ocean. We discussed this somewhat in our interview with 394 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: Christine Figner as it regards um, you know, the interactions 395 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: between plastic waste and sea turtles. But plastic trash in 396 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: the ocean is not just a sort of accidental collision problem, right, 397 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,479 Speaker 1: It's not just that a turtle happens to randomly swim 398 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: into a bunch of plastic six pack rings that are 399 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,959 Speaker 1: floating along on the surface of the water. In many cases, 400 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: it appears that animals that live in the ocean are 401 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 1: actively attracted to plastic waste, that it is, it is 402 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: getting their attention in one way or another and disrupting 403 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: their natural survival behaviors, and there are debates about the 404 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: reasons for this. There are, of course, no doubt, different 405 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: reasons when it comes to different types of plastic waste 406 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: and different animals. So, for example, in some cases, visual 407 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: mechanisms have been proposed maybe who knows, maybe a plastic 408 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: bag drifting through the water looks like a delectable jellyfish 409 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 1: and so forth. But in other cases the mechanisms can 410 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 1: remain more obscure. And in this study, the authors were 411 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: investigating a strange phenomenon in a hermit crab species called 412 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: Pagurus bernardis, which is the common hermit crab or the 413 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: soldier crab. This is a species that's native to the 414 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: Atlantic coast of Europe and along the northern coast of Europe, 415 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 1: basically the coast of Europe, but not really the Mediterranean. Uh. Specifically, 416 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: this study I think was looking at the water is 417 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: off of the eastern northern coast of England, so off 418 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: of a place called robin Hood's Bay in North Yorkshire. 419 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: I was actually listening to a radio interview on the 420 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: CBC with Paula Shermacher, one of the authors of the study, 421 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 1: and it was addressing the question of why were hermit 422 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: crabs chosen for the study, and Shermocher says that hermit 423 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: crabs are sort of a good model species to study. 424 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: She identified a few reasons. They're small, they're very curious, 425 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: and they have quote a very diverse appetite, which I 426 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: think goes with a lot of the things we've been 427 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: saying so far. That you know, there are plenty of 428 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: crabs out there, both true crabs and and crab like animals, 429 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: false crabs that that are not super picky when it 430 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: comes to food types. They'll take what they can get, 431 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 1: and hermit crabs often appear to fit that bill. They 432 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: have a they have diverse diets and appetites. Yeah, I 433 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: love that tidbit about hermit crabs, Uh says they they're 434 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: they're interested in things that smell like, but they're also 435 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: interested in the site of another hermit crab appearing to 436 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: eat something, so that that alone is is enough of 437 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: a cue for them, right. But so, this research team 438 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: was based out of the University of Hull in England, 439 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: and what it found was that hermit crabs were attracted 440 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: to the smell of a plastic additive known as olamide. Now, 441 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: oleamide is an organic compound. It's used as an additive 442 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: agent in numerous plastic products. I was digging around trying 443 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: to find out more about exactly what it's used for, 444 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: and it looks like most often olyamide is used as 445 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: a quote slip agent h and so this would be 446 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: something that is added to a polymer to reduce the 447 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: coefficient of friction on the surface of the material, basically 448 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: to make the polymer more slippery. I also saw one 449 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: of the authors here I think it was in that 450 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: CBC interview, saying that it helps in some ways make 451 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: the plastic more malleable. But it seems like the major 452 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: use of it from what I could tell, was to 453 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 1: make plastics less grippy, to make them them a little 454 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 1: slicker to the touch. And so you might wonder, well, 455 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: why would you want that. Sometimes I think that's a 456 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: desirable characteristic of plastic on the consumer side, But it 457 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: also looks like slip additives are just important on the 458 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: manufacturing side, especially with products involving thin plastic films like 459 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: plastic bags and thin plastic food wrappers and packaging and 460 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 1: things like that, and that adding the slip additives helps 461 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: make it easier to like extrude the materials and then 462 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: wrap them up tightly. But olamide is also a a 463 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: natural fatty acid. It's a natural organic compound that you 464 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: know you'll find it in our bodies. It apparently has 465 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: something to do with the regulation of sleep in in humans, 466 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 1: and so I think has attracted some attention as a 467 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: possible sleep aid, though I can't vow much for whether 468 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: those UH alleged uses would be valid or not, but 469 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: at least olamide naturally seems to play some role in 470 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: the regulation of the desire for sleep in the human body. 471 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: But again, it's also being used as this additive to 472 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: help lubricate our plastics. And it turns out when you 473 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 1: put oleamide into plastics onlyamide can sometimes leach out from 474 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: that plastic into the environment. So what happens if you're 475 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: a hermit crab and you are crawling along the ocean 476 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: floor and you happen to stagger into a big junkyard 477 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: of plastic waste that is flooding the water with low 478 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: concentrations of oleamide. Well, according to this study, surprisingly, if 479 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: you're a hermit crab, that gets you really excited. Uh. 480 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: The authors of this research found that exposure to low 481 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: concentrations of oleamide dispersed in water will cause an increase 482 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 1: in the respiration rate of hermit crabs, and that this 483 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: is a standard bio mark or sign that that indicates 484 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: excitement and attraction. Speaking to CBC Radio, Polischermacher again, one 485 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 1: of the authors characterized the hermit crabs reacting to the 486 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: oleamide as almost hyperactive. And so the question would be 487 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: why why do they get so excited and stirred up 488 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: when they smell this plastic additive. Well, basically, it seems 489 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: that they're reacting to oleamide the same way they react 490 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: when they smell a really exciting food stimulant. So this 491 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: research was done in controlled conditions. But if if this 492 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: in fact bears out into the natural environment, what you 493 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 1: have to imagine is you've got some piece of very 494 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 1: well lubricated plastic trash that is leaching oleamide into the 495 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 1: sea water, and then a hermit crab smells it, and 496 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: then it kind of powers up, gets excited, and heads 497 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: toward the food source, only to find an inedible piece 498 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: of plastic at the end of its hunt, which obviously 499 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: is not great for the hermit crab is because they 500 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: should be spending that energy hunting for real food rather 501 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 1: than the plastic that they can't really get nutrition from. 502 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: So why would this compound used in polymer manufacturing cause 503 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: a hermit crab to react as if it smelled food. Well, again, 504 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: I think the answer is not known for sure, but 505 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 1: the authors seem to have a pretty strong suspicion on 506 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: that front, which is that olamide is chemically similar to 507 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: olaic acid, which is a chemical that is released by 508 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: the rotting bodies of dead arthropods. Of course, hermit crabs 509 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: are arthropods as well, you know, these these related creatures 510 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: with exoskeletons. So a hermit crab may well smell a 511 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: plastic food wrapper that's been you know, tossed into the 512 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: oceans litter, and then it literally starts heavy breathing at 513 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: the thought of the ripe dead body of an arthropod 514 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: cousin that that it might be able to feast on. 515 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: Because again, hermit crabs are scavengers, and this is what 516 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: the authors call an old factory trap. All right, yeah, 517 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: well this this makes sense. Yet it smells like shrimp 518 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: death or a crab death or or what have you. 519 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: They're going to be interested and go over there and 520 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: check it out. And even if it's not, I mean, 521 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: even if they want you know, didn't actually consume any 522 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: of the plastic. Like you said, this is wasted energy. 523 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: This is wasted scavenging that that that should be spent 524 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: on more lucrative endeavors. Right. So yeah, So to come 525 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: back to the original question, that this is one indication 526 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: of another way plastic waste in the ocean could be 527 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: harmful to wildlife and showing a mechanism of attraction. In 528 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: this case, it could attract these hermit crabs by way 529 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: of additive leaching, possibly on the false promise of rotting 530 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: kin flesh. Now, as to the question of whether the 531 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: hermit crabs actually end up eating the plastic, whether they 532 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: find it, I'm not sure about that. This study was 533 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: just looking at them. Responding to the smell as if 534 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: it were food. I don't know whether they would actually 535 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: try to get it down the gullet or not. Another 536 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: thing that I thought was worth bagging is there was 537 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: an interesting case of miscommunication and some early science reporting 538 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: about this study because a number of early articles about 539 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: this study incorrectly claimed that the that the hermit crabs 540 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: were sexually aroused by the smell of the plastic additive. 541 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: That is not true. That is not true of hermit crabs. 542 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: That seems to have been a miscommunication based I think 543 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: out of the university press office where this study came from. 544 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: But while this is not true for hermit crabs, it 545 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: does appear that olamide is a constituent of the sex 546 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: pheromones of some other organisms like cleaner shrimp. So you know, 547 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: you can't rule out all possibilities. Maybe there are some 548 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 1: Arthur pods in the ocean that would have some kind 549 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: of sexual response to plastic additives. Thank you, thank you. 550 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: Now I was looking up more on the relationship between olamide, 551 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: oleic acid and decomposition, and uh, I was reading a 552 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: few things that actually reminded me of something we've touched 553 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: on on the show before, which is the fact that 554 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: oleic acid played a role in some classic research on 555 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: ants by E. O. Wilson. Robert. I don't know if 556 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: this rings a bell for you, but uh so. Back 557 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: in the fifties, EO. Wilson, the great entomologist, was studying 558 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: harvester ants and their waste disposal behaviors, and so many 559 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: ants have tremendous waste disposal capabilities. So ants will sometimes 560 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: create a midden in or around their nest, basically a 561 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: trash heap where they dump their garbage. And the makeup 562 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: of this midden can vary, but it will include everything 563 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: from feces, to debris removed during nest construction or other behaviors, 564 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: to the dead bodies of fellow ants from the colony. 565 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: So you come across a dead ant in the colony, 566 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: you want to get that out of there, and so 567 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: the ants will take it away to to the midden 568 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: or in some cases just away from the nest. But 569 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: in other cases to this, this trash heap and the 570 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: middens containing the bodies of dead ants have sometimes been 571 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: referred to as ant graveyards or ant cemeteries. They are 572 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: somewhat creepy to look at. They're like a spider's web 573 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: without the web. The process by which social insects remove 574 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: dead relatives from their nest is known as necrophoresis, and 575 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: that that comes from necro meaning dead and phoresis meaning 576 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: carrying or transport. But to bring this back to EO. 577 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: Wilson in this somewhat famous story from the history of entomology, 578 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: when EO. Wilson was studying this death transportation behavior in 579 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: harvester ants in the nineteen fifties, he started to wonder 580 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: how the ants could tell that one of their number 581 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: had died and needed to be removed. What what was 582 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: it that triggered the undertaker behavior in a certain in 583 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: a certain subset of ants a certain period after another 584 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: one of them had died, And so Wilson he figured 585 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: this likely was caused by by some kind of smell, 586 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: a pheromone of some kind. In this case, it's something 587 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: that would actually come to be known as a necromone. 588 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: And he studied a bunch of different compounds that that 589 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: could be released by a crushed or decaying dead aunt, 590 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: and he eventually found a winner, which was our old 591 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: friend from from just a bit earlier, oleic acid. So, 592 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: according to this story. He then tried an experiment where 593 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: he got a bit of oleic acid and he dabbed 594 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: it onto a live harvester ant to see what would happen. Okay, 595 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: so this is one of these compounds released when an 596 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: aunt is dead. Now an aunt is alive, but it's 597 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: got this stuff all over it. And sure enough he 598 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: reported that eventually the tainted aunt was grabbed by other 599 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: ants and then treated as a dead aunt. So it 600 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: was alive and kicking, but it was carried off to 601 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: the midden for disposal. So basically he framed an aunt. Yes, 602 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: he hung a sign on it saying I am a corpse, 603 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: and the other aunts were like, hey, time to time 604 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: to get to work. Um Now, I think the happy 605 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: ending of the story, if I recall correctly, is that 606 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: after the ants spent a while cleaning the oleic acid 607 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: off of its exoskeleton, its successfully rejoined the colony. So 608 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,959 Speaker 1: it just had to get all this stuff off of it. Yeah. 609 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: I um, I remember reading about this or or we're 610 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: seeing it covered in one of the documentaries about Wilson. Um. 611 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: I think one of the things I love about him 612 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: is that, like he clearly has a tremendous amount of 613 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: of love for ants, but it's a love that is 614 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 1: based in how they actually function as organisms, more so 615 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: than like anthropomorphism, because it's easy to love ants and 616 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: you know, think in terms of of armies and you know, 617 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: very human models of what they're doing and why they're 618 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: doing it. But but Wilson, you know, I wouldn't go 619 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,359 Speaker 1: as sup first. Well, I would go as far as 620 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: to say that Wilson like speaks and understands their language 621 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: because because that that is a predominant area of a 622 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: lot of his study. He understands how they communicate and 623 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: and and in doing so he has this this understanding 624 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: of what they are and you know, how they function. Oh, 625 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: I totally agree. That comes through when you hear him 626 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: talk about ants. Yeah, that he he loves ants, not 627 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: not by anthropomorphizing them, but loves ants as ants. Let 628 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: ants be ants. They're really good at it, and it's 629 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: really the best at it. I mean, if you actually 630 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: part of the problem is if you try to love 631 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: ants by anthropomorphizing them, by imagining them as tiny humans, 632 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: then their behavior becomes monstrous. Like humans should not be 633 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: doing what ants do, but ants should do what ants do. 634 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: Ants are great at doing ants. By the way, if 635 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: you want more content on ants, we did a series 636 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: about ant wars. Uh I guess it was last year, 637 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: but you can find those those episodes. I think there 638 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: are three or four of them in the archives. But 639 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: so anyway, for for these harvester ants, oleic acid seems 640 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: to trigger an instinctual behavior that says, hey, this object 641 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: is filthy, rotting trash. Maybe you know it's some kind 642 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: of garbage it or it's a dead one of you. 643 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: So it just needs it needs to be out of here. 644 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: Get it out of here, and take it to the midden. Now, 645 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: in contrast with the other study with hermit crabs, I 646 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: thought this was just funny because in so in these 647 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: harvester ants, oleic acid means you know, I am dead, 648 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: take me to the graveyard, and in hermit crabs oleic 649 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: acid and and possibly ole am I to because it 650 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 1: is chemically similar, causes the reaction of you know, commence 651 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 1: your heavy breathing. The buffet is now open. But in 652 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: either case it appears to have something to do with 653 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: death and decay. It's just the question of like, does 654 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: arthropod death and decay signal to you a sort of 655 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: an affection risk, something that's like whatever this is, it's 656 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 1: it's it's not something we want in our colony. We 657 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: need to get it out for hygienic purposes, or does 658 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: it signal something is potentially delicious and you know you're 659 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: not going to miss up a chance to get some lunch. 660 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 1: And apparently the use of oleic acid is a type 661 00:36:55,480 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: of signaling molecule conveying information about death and decay among arthropods. 662 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: Doesn't stop there, because I was looking at a study 663 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,720 Speaker 1: from two thousand nine published in the journal Evolutionary Biology 664 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: by Yao at All called the Ancient Chemistry of Avoiding 665 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: Risks of Predation and Disease. Uh. You know, so a 666 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:20,399 Speaker 1: cockroach can smell a dead or crushed cockroach nearby, and 667 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 1: the researchers determined that it was primarily by the presence 668 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: of a couple of fatty acids linoleic acid and oleic acid. Again, 669 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: like we've been talking about using these, uh, these molecules 670 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: as necromane cues, and the authors here separate the responses 671 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: to these necromane cues into into two main categories so 672 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 1: that they talk about what we were just talking about. 673 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: The the necrophoric behavior of advanced to use social insects 674 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: like ants, bees, and termites that will smell oleic acid 675 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: or linoleic acid on on a dead member of their 676 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: nest and then use that as a behavioral trigger to 677 00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: get that thing out of the nest or into the 678 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: safely away from the activity of the other members of 679 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,839 Speaker 1: the nest. Uh. So that's necrophoric behavior. But then there 680 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: are plenty of other arthropods like cockroaches apparently, uh these 681 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 1: would be classified as maybe semi social species that practice 682 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 1: necrophobic behavior instead. So that's just avoiding the smell of 683 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: death of their own kind. And the authors here we're 684 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: looking at the question of how where does this come from? 685 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: You know, lots of different arthropods seem to have this 686 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: behavioral response to these compounds. And so the authors say, quote, 687 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 1: we hypothesize that necromones are a phylogenetically ancient class of 688 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: related signals and predicted that terrestrial isopoda that strongly aggregate 689 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 1: and lack known dispersants would avoid body fluids and corpses 690 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: using fatty acid necromones. These again would be things like 691 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 1: like oleic acid or linoleic acid, And so the researchers 692 00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: here found that indeed, these these isopods were were repelled 693 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: by several things, so crushed conspecifics. They were also avoidant 694 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: of non crush just intact corpses of their own kind, 695 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: and alcohol extracts of the bodies of their own dead. 696 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 1: And then they write quote as predicted, the repellent fraction 697 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:22,320 Speaker 1: contained olaic and linoleic acids, and authentic standards repelled several 698 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,879 Speaker 1: isopod species. And then I think they also did some 699 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 1: tests in other organisms, tent caterpillars and fall web worms, 700 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: and found that these creatures would would also tend to 701 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: when they were siting their nests, they would avoid sites 702 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: that smelled like the body fluids of their own con specifics. 703 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,320 Speaker 1: And then finally the researchers found that just plain olaic 704 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: and linoleic acids were strongly avoided by these creatures. So 705 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: there are diverse types of arthropods across, you know, widely 706 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: varying categories of life that all seemed to have this 707 00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: necromone response. They smell oleic acid or linoleic acid, and 708 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 1: that signals to them some kind of get away from 709 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 1: this reaction. And the researchers here traced this back to 710 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: aquatic ancestors of all these existing creatures, uh that that 711 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: lived probably more than four hundred million years ago, they say, 712 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 1: at least four hundred and twenty million years ago, And 713 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 1: this predates the the divergence of Crustacea and hexapoda. So 714 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,919 Speaker 1: modern terrestrial insects and crustaceans, which would include crabs an 715 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: ancestor tracing back to before those different categories of life 716 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 1: split off from each other, probably developed this response. Though 717 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: of course, at some point along the way some creatures 718 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: started reacting to oleic acid as as something to be 719 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,879 Speaker 1: choted down on. Wow. So there's you know, there's plenty 720 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: to be concerned about with with with our over alliance 721 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: on plastic, especially single use plastics. But in this we 722 00:40:54,920 --> 00:41:00,080 Speaker 1: see a way that that plastics can end up um 723 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: interfering with this, uh, with with the with the olfactory 724 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 1: language of decomposition that is so rooted and established in 725 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: the natural world. The hugely widespread chemical language. Yeah, that 726 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:16,240 Speaker 1: affects insects and and and crustaceans, and and they're different 727 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,720 Speaker 1: responses to it. But if the researchers in this study 728 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 1: or right, it's at least one of these chemical additives 729 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,800 Speaker 1: commonly used in plastic just happens to start saying words 730 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: in this ancient language, and that kind of confuses that 731 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: could potentially confuse all kinds of organisms. It's kind of 732 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: like an alien probe or land on Earth, and it 733 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,239 Speaker 1: was it was, you know, just it was carrying out 734 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,800 Speaker 1: some sort of you know, function unrelated to human beings. 735 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: But it also emitted a signal on an audible signal 736 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: uh in English that said half off on electronics, um, 737 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: you know, and the people would be then be drawn 738 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,919 Speaker 1: to it, and they might be disappointed when they reach 739 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,759 Speaker 1: it and find out that it's it's just you know, 740 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: terraforming the planet or something and not off drink discount electronics. 741 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: So what do you say on Earth that makes some 742 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 1: people think, you know, death and decay, stay away, and 743 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,759 Speaker 1: makes other people think delicious? Um, all you can eat buffet. 744 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 1: I mean really, that's you don't have to go much 745 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 1: further than that. The smell of packet French onion soup 746 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: mix angels to some devils to others. You know, all right, 747 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: all right, you never noticed that, Like some people smell 748 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 1: that and it's just like the eyes go wide. It's delicious. 749 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,800 Speaker 1: And then I don't know. Sometimes it just smells like armpits. 750 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 1: Maybe hot dog water would be another example, you know, 751 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,319 Speaker 1: you know, depending on like you know, so many things. 752 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,880 Speaker 1: It's it's contact. Right. For many people, that's gonna it 753 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 1: smells like, you know, a day at the ballpark. Other 754 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,280 Speaker 1: people are gonna be like, that's just that smells like 755 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: like sausage meat has been soaking in there and and 756 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 1: you know, in there for a day or so in 757 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,280 Speaker 1: a cart. How to hermit crabs react to hot dog water? 758 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 1: I bet well, I bet yeah, I bet they. I 759 00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: bet they. They're very interested. They want to know more 760 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,200 Speaker 1: about at it. All. Right, Well, we're gonna go and 761 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: close the uh, the the crab trap on this one, 762 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: but but we'll be back in the future, who knows what. 763 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,319 Speaker 1: We'll probably be back with more crab content at some point. Uh. 764 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: They're probably not for for Thursday. But in the meantime, 765 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 1: we'd love to we'd love to hear from everybody out there. 766 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on some of the myths and 767 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,240 Speaker 1: legends we talked about here, some of the environmental issues, 768 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,840 Speaker 1: and of course the behavior of crabs. Um oh, and 769 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: on an unrelated note, I also just want to signal out. 770 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,719 Speaker 1: Another really fun thing to do in New Orleans that 771 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 1: I did not know about until this previous break. Music 772 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,760 Speaker 1: Box Village UM really fun place. It's like a imagine 773 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 1: a like a kind of Junkyard playground environment where everything 774 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 1: is a musical instrument and um and uh and uh, adults, children, 775 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,799 Speaker 1: you know whoever, everyone when there is invited to sort 776 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,800 Speaker 1: of make sounds on it uh and creates this wonderful 777 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 1: communal experience. They're also performers there. I just had a 778 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,080 Speaker 1: great time with I just felt like I should I 779 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:02,919 Speaker 1: should share this. I should share this with the world. 780 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,279 Speaker 1: If you're not if you're not familiar with it, I've 781 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 1: never heard of that. Yeah you can. You can look 782 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 1: at up at music Box Village dot com. In the meantime, 783 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: if you would like to listen to other episodes of 784 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind, you know where to find 785 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,879 Speaker 1: us uh Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed. It's 786 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: anywhere you get your podcasts. You get core episodes on 787 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,040 Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays, listener mail on Monday's, artifacts on Wednesdays, 788 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,160 Speaker 1: and on Friday's we do weird House Cinema. That's our 789 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,680 Speaker 1: time to set aside most serious uh topics and just 790 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: talk about a strange film, big things. As always to 791 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,399 Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would 792 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,400 Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on 793 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest topic for the future, 794 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact 795 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 1: at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com Stuff to 796 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,840 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind. It's production of I Heart Radio. For 797 00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,680 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my heart Radio with the iHeart Radio app, 798 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:11,720 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows,